Co-dependency?

[The Other Harry]

In addition to my other problems, I have been separated
from my wife for over ten years now. My drinking has a
lot to do with that, but there are several other issues
which I think may loom as large or possibly even larger.

Despite our problems, we have generally maintained a
friendly relationship. We take trips together, and we
have talked quite a bit about reconciling.

She has tended to frame the central issue as my drinking.
If I quit, then she would like to reconcile.

The odd thing is that now that I am actually trying to
quit drinking, she won't even talk to me anymore.

There was no other intervening event. I went into a detox
program and then started taking some other steps. She
shut right down on me.

My impression is that she actually liked me better as a
drunk. She had a reason to hammer on me. If I get sober,
that reason will be gone.

Has anyone else run into anything like this?

--
Harry

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:8hov101en7rn0tgfok79inejg41oiaji1r@4ax.com...
> In addition to my other problems, I have been separated
> from my wife for over ten years now. My drinking has a
> lot to do with that, but there are several other issues
> which I think may loom as large or possibly even larger.
>
> Despite our problems, we have generally maintained a
> friendly relationship. We take trips together, and we
> have talked quite a bit about reconciling.
>
> She has tended to frame the central issue as my drinking.
> If I quit, then she would like to reconcile.
>
> The odd thing is that now that I am actually trying to
> quit drinking, she won't even talk to me anymore.
>
> There was no other intervening event. I went into a detox
> program and then started taking some other steps. She
> shut right down on me.
>
> My impression is that she actually liked me better as a
> drunk. She had a reason to hammer on me. If I get sober,
> that reason will be gone.
>
> Has anyone else run into anything like this?
>

I read a newspaper article on that very topic before I stopped
drinking. If I remember correctly, the sentiments originated in
Al-Anon.

It highlighted the transfer of decision making power, as the newly
sober partner started to claim long abandoned responsibility.

Perhaps it's inevitable for your ex to resent some of the unforeseen
change in roles/participation in the practicalities of your
relationship.

Bob

[Kai]

The Other Harry wrote:

>
> My impression is that she actually liked me better as a
> drunk. She had a reason to hammer on me. If I get sober,
> that reason will be gone.


Maybe. I could also never understand women who stayed with
husbands who beat them, but they do.

Another thought, the problems created
by alcohol are so huge and overwhelming, that they tend to overshadow
all the other problems that may exist in a marriage. Remove the big
problem, and they resurface. It is always tempting, though not
realistic,
to create a fantasy of what life will be like when the "problem" is
finally
resolved. The reality never matches the fantasy, though.

In some ways, I am fortunate that for the majority of our marriage my
husband
was sober, and our roles and responsibilities were negotiated and
flexible.
Of course, over the past few years those have shifted somewhat, and I do
expect some friction and disagreement as we re-negotiate our life. I
have
gotten used to doing things my way, and as an individual, he will have
his own
thoughts on how things should be as well. I am sure that we will both
be
over-zealous at times defending our positions. My hope is that our
partnership
will re-emerge changed, yet better for both of us. But I sure don't
expect it to
be all sunshine and roses (well maybe some of the time).

Kai

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 05:45:18 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> Perhaps it's inevitable for your ex to resent some of the
> unforeseen change in roles/participation in the practicalities
> of your relationship.

There may be something there.

When I got out of detox and started to attend daily AA
meetings, she mentioned that, well, maybe if I could just
limit myself to one or two drinks a night...

Now, Roberto, you know and I know and -- more to the point
-- *she* knows that that is a not realistic option. We
either quit or we don't. I told her that at the time.

Looking back on that converstaion, I wonder if she was
actually encouraging me to continue drinking.

Maybe I read between lines that aren't there, but that was
the last cordial conversation we've had.

--
Harry

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:mc90205t0d825fjglcipon2804cmks6lo7@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 05:45:18 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]
>
> > Perhaps it's inevitable for your ex to resent some of the
> > unforeseen change in roles/participation in the practicalities
> > of your relationship.
>
> There may be something there.
>
> When I got out of detox and started to attend daily AA
> meetings, she mentioned that, well, maybe if I could just
> limit myself to one or two drinks a night...
>
> Now, Roberto, you know and I know and -- more to the point
> -- *she* knows that that is a not realistic option. We
> either quit or we don't. I told her that at the time.
>
> Looking back on that converstaion, I wonder if she was
> actually encouraging me to continue drinking.
>
> Maybe I read between lines that aren't there, but that was
> the last cordial conversation we've had.
>
> --
> Harry

If your ex does know moderation is not an option, what use speculating
as to what her motives/intentions are?

Could you better utilise that time and energy by taking the steps
necessary to facilitate your recovery?

Bob

[Blue Moon]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:17:55 -0500, The Other Harry
<hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote:

>She has tended to frame the central issue as my drinking.
>If I quit, then she would like to reconcile.
>
>The odd thing is that now that I am actually trying to
>quit drinking, she won't even talk to me anymore.

Drinking creates a change in psychological profile. Non-drinking
partners can grow to like how "malleable" we can be when relatively
drunk, and not appreciate us when we're sober and taking
responsibility for ourselves thus removing dependency on them. As
such, it's quite common to hear the words "I preferred you when you
were drinking". It's not the drinking itself that was preferred.

--
Blue Moon

[Christine]

There was a man at the meeting I went to tonight who shared a bit of his story:
he was with his girlfriend for 11 years, living together, and has been sober
just over a year - two months ago she told him he would have to choose meetings
or their relationship. He said he was really confused and hurt by it but said
it was like her asking him to choose death or life ... he chose sobriety
through the program, but said he is still confused by the whole thing.

I talked to him after the meeting, he's actually very happy, living with a
couple of sober guys and just started dating a girl in the program. Everything
happens for a reason.

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:baba8449c08ab826f2d2f66e98caaecf@news.teranew s.com...
> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:17:55 -0500, The Other Harry
> <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote:
>
> >She has tended to frame the central issue as my drinking.
> >If I quit, then she would like to reconcile.
> >
> >The odd thing is that now that I am actually trying to
> >quit drinking, she won't even talk to me anymore.
>
> Drinking creates a change in psychological profile. Non-drinking
> partners can grow to like how "malleable" we can be when relatively
> drunk, and not appreciate us when we're sober and taking
> responsibility for ourselves thus removing dependency on them. As
> such, it's quite common to hear the words "I preferred you when you
> were drinking". It's not the drinking itself that was preferred.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Blue,

Your comments have reminded me of something my husband said to me a
few weeks ago. At that time, life for him was uncomfortable on
account of me being in low spirits as a result of how badly I felt
about myself following his reactions to some of the things I was
saying and doing to try to make my life more manageable. He said that
he preferred me as I had been a year ago which was a time when I
wasn't wrapped up in self-analysis and self-criticism. At that time I
was getting drunk every night on account of being unable to cope with:
the pressure of being Acting Chairman of the Board of Directors of a
local charitable company and life at home: the ill-will I feel for
people who I considered had badly treated me in recent years; feelings
of being inadequate in every way; and also feeling a victim of
circumstances. I hope that all makes sense :^).

At this time, I do not sense when my husband and I are together a
feeling that we are both constantly walking on eggshells. It suits me
to think this because I know in my head and heart that these days I
am more often than in the past making an effort not to be so selfish
and also not to be so critical of him. I also sense that our
relationship benefits whenever I find the peace of mind that comes to
me when I put into practice what I've learnt since starting to work
AA's programme.

If anything I have said suggests to you either arrogance or
complacency, it's important to me to let you know that I know that I
can demonstrate both; that I consider both to be character defects and
that I'm trying to better control. these defects. At this time I'm
not thinking that it will be possible for me to eventually rid myself
of them.

Best regards

JB

[Bpyboy]

Hi harry,
I hate to bring this up, and forgive me if i'm overstepping my bounds, but
perhaps your ex is using drinking as a reason NOT to get back together? I
mean, she may view it as an impossible goal, and so saying "if you quite
drinking...." and in the back of her mind thinking "that will NEVER happen".

I don't know, it sounds a little fishy for me. Or perhaps she knows that you
will have a bad time of quitting, and can't stand to watch it? I got so
terribly sick when I quite that my fiance (mysteriously??) was not around to
watch much of it. It was an UGLY process, and i'm glad to have not involved
anyone in it.

It is tough one though.
I don't know what to tell you, other than, well, hang in there. And take care
of yourself.

John

[Bpyboy]

RIght on blue. I have a buddy at the meetings, and he said that his kids got
pissed off when he quit drinking. It seems that they would time out when they
would ask him to use the car, or for money, or whatever, when he was quite
drunk. and he would never question anything. Just fork over the keys and the
money!

Now, sober, he's concerned, asking where they are going, when they will be
home. Snooping around to make sure there are no drugs.....

"Malleable" i think was THE perfect word for this condition. I was good with
the drunken "I don't want to deal with it" attitude. I think perhaps that was
a big contributor to my difficulty in quitting.

[Dreamspinner3]

Harry, I am the wife of an alcoholic and I lurk here. By seeking sobriety,
you've changed all of the dynamic in your life and in your relationship with
others. Suddenly, for your wife, the whole dance of your relationship is
changed and she is on totally unfamiliar ground with you. All the rules &
roles that worked in the past within your relationship don't now and she
doesn't know how to react.

It is hard for any of us to have to change the major roles we've played in
our lives. Your wife is used to being the strong one, the "good" one, and
I'll bet she used her relationship with you to boost her own self-esteem by
playing into that role. I know I have in the past. The purpose you served
for her is gone if you get sober and it just might not be possible for her
to adjust to it.

"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:8hov101en7rn0tgfok79inejg41oiaji1r@4ax.com...

> The odd thing is that now that I am actually trying to
> quit drinking, she won't even talk to me anymore.
>
> There was no other intervening event. I went into a detox
> program and then started taking some other steps. She
> shut right down on me.
>
> My impression is that she actually liked me better as a
> drunk. She had a reason to hammer on me. If I get sober,
> that reason will be gone.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 09:39:31 -0600, "Dreamspinner3"
<dreamspinner3@hotpop.com> wrote:]

> Your wife is used to being the strong one, the "good" one, and
> I'll bet she used her relationship with you to boost her own
> self-esteem by playing into that role.

Not really the strong one, but very definitely the "good"
one. She especially played that to the hilt with respect
to attempting to manipulate our kids -- to have them see
her as being a better person than I am. I have always
declined to engage in that game.

--
Harry

[Robert McGregor]

"Dreamspinner3" <dreamspinner3@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:bvr3kk$vbf67$1@ID-75132.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Harry, I am the wife of an alcoholic and I lurk here. By seeking
sobriety,
> you've changed all of the dynamic in your life and in your
relationship with
> others. Suddenly, for your wife, the whole dance of your
relationship is
> changed and she is on totally unfamiliar ground with you. All the
rules &
> roles that worked in the past within your relationship don't now and
she
> doesn't know how to react.
>
> It is hard for any of us to have to change the major roles we've
played in
> our lives. Your wife is used to being the strong one, the "good"
one, and
> I'll bet she used her relationship with you to boost her own
self-esteem by
> playing into that role. I know I have in the past. The purpose you
served
> for her is gone if you get sober and it just might not be possible
for her
> to adjust to it.
>

Guess not many if any alcoholics could express those sentiments as
clearly as you just did.

Good 2 C U here again,
Bob

[Bpyboy]

Bob is right, I didn't even understand my relationship with my fiance until I
got off the booze. She is totally and completly and lifelong dry! I think the
only drink she took was at church!

and she has kept a lot of shit together for me while I got my head back
together. I needed someone to cut checks for the rent, someone to make student
loan payments, someone to make sure the car was registered and all the bullshit
that comes along with life. I would bring home the money, she would make sure
the bills got paid.
I didn't realize, and actually never asked about what a serious pain in the
ass that is on a monthly basis. So FINALLY i thanked her for her toils, and
told her that I didn't realize what a pain in the ass it is.

She is still way better and more trustworthy with a calculator than I am, so
the bills are still up to her, but i'm glad that i'm not passed out or too
drunk to give a shit while it's happening!

I'm terrifically glad she stuck with me through the last year or 2. Honestly,
I think I would have left and not dealt with it!

Take care guys
John

[The Other Harry]

[On 05 Feb 2004 00:36:17 GMT, bpyboy@aol.com (Bpyboy)
wrote:]

> She is still way better and more trustworthy with a calculator
> than I am, so the bills are still up to her...

To continue sounding like a sexist pig, I think women
usually are better than men at doing things like making
sure the bills get paid. I've told my daughter (23) to
make sure that once she gets married that she is the one
who handles the family's finances.

Men are to prone to neglecting utility bills while
shopping for new BMW's. ;)

--
Harry

[rosie]

your right harry....................your comments ARE sexist!
:)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
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"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:a95320p6p07ul1kbmepkto45a8c0khan9q@4ax.com...
> [On 05 Feb 2004 00:36:17 GMT, bpyboy@aol.com (Bpyboy)
> wrote:]
>
> > She is still way better and more trustworthy with a calculator
> > than I am, so the bills are still up to her...
>
> To continue sounding like a sexist pig, I think women
> usually are better than men at doing things like making
> sure the bills get paid. I've told my daughter (23) to
> make sure that once she gets married that she is the one
> who handles the family's finances.
>
> Men are to prone to neglecting utility bills while
> shopping for new BMW's. ;)
>
> --
> Harry

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TXrUb.26374$2h.23237@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> your right harry....................your comments ARE sexist!
> :)

SO? If you are offended, you could leave.

[Kirk S]

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:TlsUb.11252$qK3.2554@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:TXrUb.26374$2h.23237@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > your right harry....................your comments ARE sexist!
> > :)
>
> SO? If you are offended, you could leave.

My $1.98 on the co-dependency issue:

To me, it is just another buzz word to explain the condition that many
people find themselves in. Feeling their wants and needs are not being met
and attempting to satisfy them by externalizing them. Of course, since we
are indoctrinated with this from birth, many of us do not know how to get
their needs met. Being responsible for your feelings and chosen behaviors
around them is the key to recovery for all of us.

This is just my opinion, you could be wrong...

Kirk S.
>
>

[Debbie]

> I've told my daughter (23) to
> make sure that once she gets married that she is the one
> who handles the family's finances.
> --
> Harry

That was great advice, Harry. ;-)

Debbie


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[Debbie]

"Dreamspinner3" wrote:

> Harry, I am the wife of an alcoholic and I lurk here. By seeking
sobriety,
> you've changed all of the dynamic in your life and in your relationship
with
> others. Suddenly, for your wife, the whole dance of your relationship is
> changed and she is on totally unfamiliar ground with you. All the rules &
> roles that worked in the past within your relationship don't now and she
> doesn't know how to react.
>
> It is hard for any of us to have to change the major roles we've played in
> our lives. Your wife is used to being the strong one, the "good" one, and
> I'll bet she used her relationship with you to boost her own self-esteem
by
> playing into that role. I know I have in the past. The purpose you
served
> for her is gone if you get sober and it just might not be possible for her
> to adjust to it.
>
> "The Other Harry"
>
> > The odd thing is that now that I am actually trying to
> > quit drinking, she won't even talk to me anymore.
> >
> > There was no other intervening event. I went into a detox
> > program and then started taking some other steps. She
> > shut right down on me.
> >
> > My impression is that she actually liked me better as a
> > drunk. She had a reason to hammer on me. If I get sober,
> > that reason will be gone.
>
>

Hey Harry,

I think Dreamspinner3 hit the nail on the head. I had an experience that
dumbfounded me, too.

I was trying to quit drinking when I was still with the ex and he asked me
one weekend night if I was going to drink and I said no. He *volunteered*
to go out and get us both some beer that night to have fun. *How sweet*, I
thought (what a dumb a** I was).

Three hours later I'm three sheets in the wind (he was still sober and
hadn't drank but maybe one beer) and wondering what kind of errand was so
important that he had to leave right now. What a ~maroon~ I was.

He had a girlfriend and as long as I was drunk he could go meet his
girlfriend and I couldn't catch him.

People have ulterior motives that we may never know about until later. Just
giving my example of life on this Earth. ;-) Not saying that's what she
did to you.

Debbie


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