I've had my last blackout - please help me

[Dylan Silvestro]

I've always thought I've had a problem with alcohol. I can associate every
single low point in my life with alcohol. Every time I was in trouble with
the law, alcohol was there. Argument with friends, alcohol.

I don't necessarily drink every night...maybe 3 times a month. And not
every time was drinking into a stupor. There actually were times where I
could drink 3 beers and be fine...but other times were drinking until I
physically couldn't lift the can or bottle to my lips and passing out.

Those nights that were heavy drinking I would come home and pick fights
with my girlfriend (who has stood by me to this day). I was never violent
or abusive to her, but she would tell me that I was rambling, crying and
going on and on about it all "being her fault". Basically nonsensical
drunken rants. And then always telling her the next day that I would stop
drinking. Then doing it all over again in a few weeks.

I recently started taking Wellbutrin for smoking/depression. I went out
this past Friday and didn't drink that much, maybe 6 beers but I was
totally smashed, came home and picked a fight with my girlfriend. Just off
those 6 or 7 beers I don't remember much from the bar. She left and went
to her friend's house for the night, I ended up calling some friends and we
got even more drunk. Most of the second half of the night is a complete
blur. The day after was a really low day, I felt extremely depressed and
guilty.

It seems like the Wellbutrin is causing me to get twice as drunk on half
the amount of alcohol. Has anyone else experienced this? This, and the
fact that I put my girlfriend through hell sometimes, is motivation to
finally stop drinking.

Today I said to myself, "If I have to make a list of all the people I might
have to apologize to after a night of drinking, there might be a problem".
Who knows what I say to people throughout the night.

Why can't I be a normal drinker? Am I a crazy person? Why me?

> Today I said to myself, "If I have to make a list of all the
people I might
> have to apologize to after a night of drinking, there might be a
problem".
> Who knows what I say to people throughout the night.
>


i have always maintained that it is not HOW MUCH we drank, that
makes the alcoholic, but rather WHAT WE DO when we
drink............................

you posted that you have experienced some trouble BEFORE going on
wellbutrin/zyban with your drinking, so i don't think i would blame
the medication for your increased drinking problems, although
drinking while taking any antidepressant is NOT a good or safe idea.

i eventually had to stop (8-26-82) drinking due to my alcoholism.
there was an inability to stop once started, personality changes,
blackouts, and so much remorse..................("pitiful and
incomprehensible demoralization")

when i sobered up, there was a women in my original group who only
drank on HOLIDAYS, but qualified herself as an alcoholic because of
all the negative results of her drinking.

i hope this helps!
rosie

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:48:54 GMT, Dylan Silvestro
<dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote:

>It seems like the Wellbutrin is causing me to get twice as drunk on half
>the amount of alcohol.

Of course. That's why the packet says something like "avoid alcohol".
Alcohol is a depressant, so if you quit the booze perhaps you'll find
you no longer need the drugs.

>Why can't I be a normal drinker?

Because of the way your body, and perhaps your mind, reacts to
alcohol.

>Am I a crazy person?

Yes :) Sane people probably don't do this to themselves. But there
is a solution to the insanity. I'd suggest checking out your local AA
meetings, and focusing on recovery.

>Why me?

Why not?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:24:25 -0600, " <rosie>"
<readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote:

>you posted that you have experienced some trouble BEFORE going on
>wellbutrin/zyban with your drinking so i don't think i would blame
>the medication for your increased drinking problems

I have no idea how you managed to reach that conclusion. "I drink, I
get drunk, I take pills and drink, I suddenly find I get drunk
quicker.... might there be a link? Er..... duh!"

--
Blue Moon

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1a7c9396817efcfcc04ba49231caf3ff@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:24:25 -0600, " <rosie>"
> <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >you posted that you have experienced some trouble BEFORE going on
> >wellbutrin/zyban with your drinking so i don't think i would
blame
> >the medication for your increased drinking problems
>
> I have no idea how you managed to reach that conclusion. "I
drink, I
> get drunk, I take pills and drink, I suddenly find I get drunk
> quicker.... might there be a link? Er..... duh!"
>
> --
> Blue Moon



i have no idea if he is an alcoholic and if he is, HOW FAST his
disease is progressing..............i DO KNOW that many folks like
to blame the antidepressants, for their drinking problems
increasing, thus giving themselves excuses to drink more!

BM, your point is well taken, i am just approaching this possible
problem from a different
direction...............................there are many!

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:05:19 -0600, <rosie> wrote:

> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1a7c9396817efcfcc04ba49231caf3ff@news.teranew s.com...
>> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:24:25 -0600, " <rosie>"
>> <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>you posted that you have experienced some trouble BEFORE going on
>>>wellbutrin/zyban with your drinking so i don't think i would
> blame
>>>the medication for your increased drinking problems
>>
>> I have no idea how you managed to reach that conclusion. "I
> drink, I
>> get drunk, I take pills and drink, I suddenly find I get drunk
>> quicker.... might there be a link? Er..... duh!"
>>
>> --
>> Blue Moon
>
> i have no idea if he is an alcoholic and if he is, HOW FAST his
> disease is progressing..............i DO KNOW that many folks like
> to blame the antidepressants, for their drinking problems
> increasing, thus giving themselves excuses to drink more!
>
> BM, your point is well taken, i am just approaching this possible
> problem from a different
> direction...............................there are many!

I am not blaming it...I am asking if the antidepressant may cause increased
effects of alcohol.

If anything, this will make me decrease my drinking.

[skidoo]

>
> >Why me?
>
> Why not?
>
> --
> Blue Moon

I like that, pretty simple really, why not you (or me)

I also like this, I use it to remind myself - some people can't eat peanuts,
they die, or fish, they die or a million other allergic reactions, some
people are allergic to dust etc etc. Why me? why not me, I can't drink
alcohol, and I don't die straight away, I linger on in a "half life". That's
just the way it is...

craig

[neuro equipoise]

On - Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 3:48pm (EST+5) dsilvestro@munged.org
(Dylan*Silvestro) wrote:

> I recently started taking Wellbutrin for
> smoking/depression.

> It seems like the Wellbutrin is causing me to get
> twice as drunk on half the amount of alcohol. Has
> anyone else experienced this?

Here's why, Dylan. It keeps dopamine *circulating*, and dopamine is
also raised when when drinking alcohol.

Quote:

"Classified as a dopamine-reuptake blocking compound, Wellbutrin has a
chemical structure unrelated to any other antidepressant medication.
Unlike some of the other recently developed antidepressants (i.e.,
Celexa, Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft) that target the brain chemical
serotonin, Wellbutrin acts on the brain chemicals dopamine and
norepinephrine"

http://www.wellbutrin-side-effects.com/

>
> I am not blaming it...I am asking if the antidepressant may cause
increased
> effects of alcohol.
>
> If anything, this will make me decrease my drinking.



yes, imo, antidepressants should NEVER be combined with alcohol.
but you know what?

your antidepressants really aren't benefiting you when you drink.
so DECREASING your drinking while taking them isn't really going to
help your depression.

am i understanding you correctly?

rosie

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:30:39 -0600, <rosie> wrote:

> your antidepressants really aren't benefiting you when you drink.
> so DECREASING your drinking while taking them isn't really going to
> help your depression.
>
> am i understanding you correctly?

I'm not sure.

You're telling me that quitting drinking while I'm on anti-depressants
isn't going to benefit me?

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:50:35 -0500 (EST), neuro equipoise wrote:

> On - Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 3:48pm (EST+5) dsilvestro@munged.org
> (Dylan*Silvestro) wrote:
>
>> I recently started taking Wellbutrin for
>> smoking/depression.
>
>> It seems like the Wellbutrin is causing me to get
>> twice as drunk on half the amount of alcohol. Has
>> anyone else experienced this?
>
> Here's why, Dylan. It keeps dopamine *circulating*, and dopamine is
> also raised when when drinking alcohol.
>
> Quote:
>
> "Classified as a dopamine-reuptake blocking compound, Wellbutrin has a
> chemical structure unrelated to any other antidepressant medication.
> Unlike some of the other recently developed antidepressants (i.e.,
> Celexa, Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft) that target the brain chemical
> serotonin, Wellbutrin acts on the brain chemicals dopamine and
> norepinephrine"
>
> http://www.wellbutrin-side-effects.com/

Thank you very much for the site...

I think I am going to quit drinking anyway.

Whether or not Wellbutrin is helping me make that decision is something
I'll never know. But I think I'm able to approach my problems easier and
create solutions easier lately.

I've always thought about quitting drinking, but never took it very
seriously. Today, that particular problem seems very vivid and the
solution seems very clear as well.

[Julie LaRue]

All these comments about the side effects of Wellbutrin when combined with
alcohol isn't going anywhere. As far as I know NONE of you are DOCTORS and
giving out medical advice to someone you don't know is insane.

This guy doesn't need to cut back on his alcohol consumption he needs to
completely stop all alcohol use.

Hey Dylan!! Go back to whoever prescribed you the Wellbutrin and tell them
you have a drinking problem and ask them if you should continue to take this
medication or be put in something else.

You have already said your having blackout so get yourself to the Doctor and
AA before you kill yourself or someone else while driving around blasted.

Love you Dude,

Julie



"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:3je5p24k038h.1odz3l7c2rui9.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:50:35 -0500 (EST), neuro equipoise wrote:
>
> > On - Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 3:48pm (EST+5) dsilvestro@munged.org
> > (Dylan Silvestro) wrote:
> >
> >> I recently started taking Wellbutrin for
> >> smoking/depression.
> >
> >> It seems like the Wellbutrin is causing me to get
> >> twice as drunk on half the amount of alcohol. Has
> >> anyone else experienced this?
> >
> > Here's why, Dylan. It keeps dopamine *circulating*, and dopamine is
> > also raised when when drinking alcohol.
> >
> > Quote:
> >
> > "Classified as a dopamine-reuptake blocking compound, Wellbutrin has a
> > chemical structure unrelated to any other antidepressant medication.
> > Unlike some of the other recently developed antidepressants (i.e.,
> > Celexa, Paxil, Prozac, and Zoloft) that target the brain chemical
> > serotonin, Wellbutrin acts on the brain chemicals dopamine and
> > norepinephrine"
> >
> > http://www.wellbutrin-side-effects.com/
>
> Thank you very much for the site...
>
> I think I am going to quit drinking anyway.
>
> Whether or not Wellbutrin is helping me make that decision is something
> I'll never know. But I think I'm able to approach my problems easier and
> create solutions easier lately.
>
> I've always thought about quitting drinking, but never took it very
> seriously. Today, that particular problem seems very vivid and the
> solution seems very clear as well.

[rosie r+p]

no, i'm telling you that taking ANTIDEPRESSANTS with alcohol negates
most of the effects of the antidepressants!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:rabrk8z0avge.a1dd5kwgdf69.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:30:39 -0600, <rosie> wrote:
>
> > your antidepressants really aren't benefiting you when you
drink.
> > so DECREASING your drinking while taking them isn't really going
to
> > help your depression.
> >
> > am i understanding you correctly?
>
> I'm not sure.
>
> You're telling me that quitting drinking while I'm on
anti-depressants
> isn't going to benefit me?

[rosie r+p]

> I've always thought about quitting drinking, but never took it
very
> seriously. Today, that particular problem seems very vivid and
the
> solution seems very clear as well.


well, that's the best thing i've read all day!
congrats on making a decision about and for yourself!

http://www.aa-intergroup.org/

[rosie r+p]

> All these comments about the side effects of Wellbutrin when
combined with
> alcohol isn't going anywhere. As far as I know NONE of you are
DOCTORS and
> giving out medical advice to someone you don't know is insane.
>


no medical advise was given julie....................just the facts
as printed in every brochure packaged with wellbutrin/zyban.

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:20:53 GMT, "Julie LaRue"
<Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:

>All these comments about the side effects of Wellbutrin when combined with
>alcohol isn't going anywhere. As far as I know NONE of you are DOCTORS and
>giving out medical advice to someone you don't know is insane.

What makes you think you have to be a doctor to know that drinking
whilst on the pills is a serious no-no? I'm suggesting reading the
information that is put there for patients to read, you're apparently
suggesting I'm not qualified to do that. I am.

>This guy doesn't need to cut back on his alcohol consumption he needs to
>completely stop all alcohol use.

Indeed.

>Hey Dylan!! Go back to whoever prescribed you the Wellbutrin and tell them
>you have a drinking problem and ask them if you should continue to take this
>medication or be put in something else.

What makes you think the doctor has a f'ing clue about the effects of
alcohol?

You're involved in AA, right? Suggest you get involved with PI or CPC
in your area, go do some doctors talks, and you'll learn for yourself
just where they get their alcohol information.

--
Blue Moon

[Julie LaRue]

Hmmm........the following comments are MEDICAL advice concerning a drug that
this guy is taking. When I read them I thought I should point out that
making such comments can be misleading to someone who is suffering.
Especially since ANTIDEPRESSANTS can have a wide range of effects on any
given individual. Since none of you are Doctors or Pharmacists such
comments can be medically dangerous.

Just stay focused on the problems alcohol causes..........this is our
EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE.





"Alcohol is a depressant, so if you quit the booze perhaps you'll find
you no longer need the drugs." (you don't know this true).



"your antidepressants really aren't benefiting you when you drink.
so DECREASING your drinking while taking them isn't really going to
help your depression." (you have no idea of the benefits he may get)



"no, i'm telling you that taking ANTIDEPRESSANTS with alcohol negates
most of the effects of the antidepressants!" (again, everyone is different.
could be true, but you have no idea)




Love you all,

Julie




" rosie r+p" <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:JHfTb.24253$M81.19449@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > All these comments about the side effects of Wellbutrin when
> combined with
> > alcohol isn't going anywhere. As far as I know NONE of you are
> DOCTORS and
> > giving out medical advice to someone you don't know is insane.
> >
>
>
> no medical advise was given julie....................just the facts
> as printed in every brochure packaged with wellbutrin/zyban.
>
>

[rosie]

> "no, i'm telling you that taking ANTIDEPRESSANTS with alcohol
negates
> most of the effects of the antidepressants!" (again, everyone is
different.
> could be true, but you have no idea)
>


this IS my experience, strength and hope.

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7ljTb.7651$sd.74@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > "no, i'm telling you that taking ANTIDEPRESSANTS with alcohol
> negates
> > most of the effects of the antidepressants!" (again, everyone is
> different.
> > could be true, but you have no idea)
> >
>
>
> this IS my experience, strength and hope.
>
>

Your experience??????

You already told us you had stopped drinking for a few years, before
abandoning step two in favour of dependence on anti depressants!
Remember?

Bob

Rosie's experience.
From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ZPSl5.19140$E05.340458@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to
>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that dosage?
>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........


Rosie's strength
"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WmE9b.246$eX1.98@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> i am quite frightened by the thought of taking another
drink...................

Rosie's hope.
"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[rosie]

i was speaking as a health professional, who is VERY familiar with
antidepressants and their contraindications.

your memory IS intact and correct!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6rkTb.24532$M81.15618@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> i was speaking as a health professional, who is VERY familiar with
> antidepressants and their contraindications.

Hahahahahaha!!!!

A bedpan-swabbing LPN is a "health professional". Riiiigggghhhhhtttttt!
Same as a kid flying a kite is an astronaut.

You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've swallowed enough
of them. Fraud.
..

[Christine]

>Today I said to myself, "If I have to make a list of all the people I might
>have to apologize to after a night of drinking, there might be a problem".
>Who knows what I say to people throughout the night.
>

You care, and that's good. I got to a point that I no longer cared, no longer
apologized because to feel that would mean I had to face my drinking and I was
never going to stop ... years later, and almost to the ground floor, I started
caring again, so here I am.

>
>Why can't I be a normal drinker? Am I a crazy person? Why me?
>

You're asking the right questions :)

All the best,
Christine

[Cheggers]

If I read you right, Dylan, you said that you drink on average three
times a month.

I'm lucky if I can get through *24 hours* without wanting alcohol, and
- for what it's worth - booze doesn't get me into a *fraction* of the
trouble it seems to get you into! For some folks (myself included, of
course), booze is just a baaaaaaaaad mamma jamma. :-)

Of course, I don't know all your circumstances, but -- as far as I can
see -- you have nothing to lose, amigo. Just stay sober three more
days each month and all those problems you described will disappear
like this: *poof*. Seriously.

One way to help you achieve that is to check out an AA meeting. There
are some real characters there you can learn from, and a bunch of
reading you can do that'll help you put some perspective on your
situation.

People have walked the same path as you before. Luckily, some of them
left maps that you can take advantage of.

Good luck,

Cheggers.

[JB]

"Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qyiTb.6101$jH6.5032@newsread1.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
>
> Hmmm........the following comments are MEDICAL advice concerning a
drug that
> this guy is taking. When I read them I thought I should point out
that
> making such comments can be misleading to someone who is suffering.
> Especially since ANTIDEPRESSANTS can have a wide range of effects on
any
> given individual. Since none of you are Doctors or Pharmacists such
> comments can be medically dangerous.
>
> Just stay focused on the problems alcohol causes..........this is
our
> EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE.

<comments snipped>

Hi Julie,

Firstly, it's important to me to say that what I am about to say is
merely my attempt at giving readers food for thought.

Here in the UK, concern has been recently expressed about the
widespread use of antidepressants. Some claim that doctors find it
easier to prescribe pills rather than provide or refer their patients
to services aimed at discovering the root cause of their depression
and then tailoring treatment to the individual's needs.

I've been prescribed anti-depressants at various times over many
years, most recently at the beginning of 2003. I was advised not to
drink and also that it would take several weeks before I would start
to feel any benefit from the drugs. I've not always not drunk while
taking my meds.

At various times, I've not felt any benefit from being on ad's and
therefore have stopped taking them..

Since starting work on AA's programme, I've come to believe that for
me, ads do not provide an easy, "quick-fix" solution to the
difficulties I have coping with life. Instead, for me, a better way
to deal with situations similar to those in which I would have
resorted to using them is to: remember the need to: accept those
things I cannot change; not to hold on to resentments; find safe ways
of getting breaks from whatever it is that bothers me (eg; talking to
those whom I trust, going to the cinema, going for a walk) and not to
drink. .

I believe that many of my husband's bouts of depression have similar
causes to mine, ie, they stem from feelings of helplessness/ not being
in control. I do not know whether when he gives the appearance of
having accepted those things he cannot changed, his depression has
lifted or remains inside him imprisoned by his will. Once, he had a
nervous breakdown which was successfully treated with ECT.

Now I take my leave leaving all who have read this far to draw their
own conclusions.

Yours

JB

[rosie]

> You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
swallowed enough
> of them. Fraud.
> .
>
>
i will be grateful, as long as i am sober, that there are folks who
understand and treat depression, ESPECIALLY for those of us who are
dually diagnosed.

(no matter how much you and a few others in here, try to ridicule
those of us with mental illness!)

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bmrTb.24781$M81.7505@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
> swallowed enough
> > of them. Fraud.
> > .
> >
> >
> i will be grateful, as long as i am sober, that there are folks who
> understand and treat depression, ESPECIALLY for those of us who are
> dually diagnosed.
>
> (no matter how much you and a few others in here, try to ridicule
> those of us with mental illness!)
>

"Those of us" ????

There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill merely
to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence.

God have mercy on your "clients!"

Bob

[rosie]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvlhbl$tf1ok$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...



GOOD MORNING SWEETIE!

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bmrTb.24781$M81.7505@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
> swallowed enough
> > of them. Fraud.
> > .
> >
> >
> i will be grateful, as long as i am sober, that there are folks who
> understand and treat depression, ESPECIALLY for those of us who are
> dually diagnosed.
>
> (no matter how much you and a few others in here, try to ridicule
> those of us with mental illness!)
>
Should antidepressants only be prescribed in order to correct a
chemical imbalance in the brain ? I do not believe that on the many
of the occasions when I was prescribed them that is the reason why I
was prescribed them. I think this because they were prescribed at the
end of consultations with a GP during which I had given each of them
the impression that I was finding life impossible to cope with. Over
the years, different GP's have, in addition to prescribing me ad's,
suggested that I leave my husband even when I didn't suggest that he
was the reason why I was depressed, and other situations that I had
suggested I could not cope with.. Whenever my GP's suggestions I
leave made me feel uncomfortable, I think it was because what they
said reminded me of some of the many previous occasions when I've
chosen to "run away" * from situations that I couldn't handle in the
hope of finding everlasting happiness/peace elsewhere. LOL. To this
day, I've never found what I used to dream I'd find :^) However, now
that I am beginning to understand that life is never going to be
always perfect for me irrespective of whether or not I take ad's or
whether or not I stay put, and I'm tired of running away, I believe
that by working AA's programme I improve my chances of being content
for longer periods of time in the future than in the past.

Yours

JB

* For me running away might involve: changing jobs; moving to a
different part of the country; avoiding places where people meet
socially; getting drunk, comfort eating and comfort shopping.

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:56:16 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:bmrTb.24781$M81.7505@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>> You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
>> swallowed enough
>>> of them. Fraud.
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>> i will be grateful, as long as i am sober, that there are folks who
>> understand and treat depression, ESPECIALLY for those of us who are
>> dually diagnosed.
>>
>> (no matter how much you and a few others in here, try to ridicule
>> those of us with mental illness!)
>>
>
> "Those of us" ????
>
> There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill merely
> to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence.

You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take anti-depressants. I
just want help to feel better.

How come?

[rosie]

> > There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill
merely
> > to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence.
>
> You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take
anti-depressants. I
> just want help to feel better.
>
> How come?


its just a couple of folks, who continue to "harp on" about it (as
you can see)....................
don't worry, the majority of us in here understand the treatment of
depression and DO NOT take them or their obsessive rants seriously!
rosie

[JB]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:1n63cszzx8y4o$.1quv5qmrsbbvg.dlg@40tude.net.. .
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:56:16 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmrTb.24781$M81.7505@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >>> You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
> >> swallowed enough
> >>> of them. Fraud.
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>>
> >> i will be grateful, as long as i am sober, that there are folks
who
> >> understand and treat depression, ESPECIALLY for those of us who
are
> >> dually diagnosed.
> >>
> >> (no matter how much you and a few others in here, try to ridicule
> >> those of us with mental illness!)
> >>
> >
> > "Those of us" ????
> >
> > There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill
merely
> > to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence.
>
> You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take anti-depressants.
I
> just want help to feel better.
>
> How come?

Hi Dylan,

If my posts have given you the impression that I do not think that
doctors should ever prescribe ad's, it's important to me to correct
the record. I believe that ad's when correctly prescribed can greatly
benefit those who take them.

Earlier today in this thread I asked the following question:

"Should antidepressants only be prescribed in order to correct a
chemical imbalance in the brain ?

At this time I hope that our resident health professional who, only
today, has claimed to be:

"VERY familiar with antidepressants and their contraindications".

will chose to answer this, IMO, on-topic-for-this-thread question, I
hope that any answer I get may benefit you.

Yours

JB.

[Moonraker]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvlceg$p86$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> At various times, I've not felt any benefit from being on ad's and
> therefore have stopped taking them..

JB, your experience is similar to most folks....when the medicos are
"treating" a undefined "disease" with "medicines" that are only measurable
by the side-effects they create....

Of course, the medical whores like Rosemary absolutely insist that there's
benefit to popping pills. Otherwise, how could they justify their continued
existance?

[JB]

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:mBuTb.11249$aU6.6991@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvlceg$p86$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > At various times, I've not felt any benefit from being on ad's and
> > therefore have stopped taking them..
>
> JB, your experience is similar to most folks....when the medicos
are
> "treating" a undefined "disease" with "medicines" that are only
measurable
> by the side-effects they create....
>
> Of course, the medical whores like Rosemary absolutely insist that
there's
> benefit to popping pills. Otherwise, how could they justify their
continued
> existance?

Hi,

I've shared some of what I'm about to say before but think it worth
repeating.

When I was prescribed ad's in the 1990's I was more depressed than I
have since been. I was given a repeat prescription. Although my
doctor
saw me regularly, he did not know when it was that I stopped taking my
meds because I continued to collect my prescriptions. I vividly
remember toying with the idea of overdosing on them more than once.
Given my state of mind, maybe, I should not have been left to live in
the community without being kept under close supervision.

A few days ago, a friend of mine led me to believe that her mother was
rushed into hospital after overdosing on ad's.

If you look on the internet you'll discover what harm ad's can do if
either incorrectly prescribed or taken in larger doses than
prescribed. IMO the use of such dangerous drugs should be more
strictly controlled than at present.

Yours

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:45:41 GMT, Dylan Silvestro
<dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote:]

> You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take
> anti-depressants. I just want help to feel better.
>
> How come?

Dylan, med's are very controversial among recovering
alcoholics, as well as among those of us who are trying to
recover. Very, very conroversial.

There is a school of thought that -- to use my words --
attacking the booze problem directly, without med's, may
be more difficult, but is ultimately the way that is most
likely to lead to success. Many of us have addictive
personalities, and many of the med's are addictive.
Getting off all chemicals that affect our moods is the
path to take. Not the easiest, maybe, but the best one.
Sobriety does not involve substituting one drug for
another.

There is another school of thought that says that med's
are better than booze. They are less disruptive to your
life. Even if you only take them for a relatively short
period of time, they may help you transition off the
booze.

I am caught in the middle to this argument myself right
now. I have started taking a couple med's. I think one
of them (Anafrinil) may be helping me, and the other one
(Lorazepam) is bad for me.

My drinking has declined a fair amount. My anxiety has
declined markedly, and -- to use your words -- I feel
better about myself. So, in that sense, the med's do seem
to be benefiting me.

Still, in a larger sense, I have to agree with Robert, the
Moons, and the others who oppose med's. I see them as the
equivalent of trying to fix a leaking gutter with duct
tape.

Bottom line: It is a personal decision. If you are taking
them, please at least be sure to be under the care of a
physician who knows something about all this. They aren't
so easy to find.

--
Harry

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:33:12 -0000, JB wrote:

> I've shared some of what I'm about to say before but think it worth
> repeating.
>
> When I was prescribed ad's in the 1990's I was more depressed than I
> have since been. I was given a repeat prescription. Although my doctor
> saw me regularly, he did not know when it was that I stopped taking my
> meds because I continued to collect my prescriptions. I vividly
> remember toying with the idea of overdosing on them more than once.
> Given my state of mind, maybe, I should not have been left to live in
> the community without being kept under close supervision.
>
> A few days ago, a friend of mine led me to believe that her mother was
> rushed into hospital after overdosing on ad's.

I've seen people rushed to hospitals overdosing on painkillers, overdosing
on anti-anxiety pills, overdosing on seizure meds, overdosing on cough
syrup or overdosing on vitamins.

> If you look on the internet you'll discover what harm ad's can do if
> either incorrectly prescribed or taken in larger doses than prescribed.

The same can be said for any drug. Incorrectly prescribing *any* medicine
or taking more of *any* medicine is dangerous, not just anti-depressants.

> IMO the use of such dangerous drugs should be more strictly controlled
> than at present.

I understand where you are coming from. But I need to be a better man for
myself, those that love me and those that I love.

If a small pill in the morning gives me some added clarity and the ability
to put things into perspective a little quicker, then it's a sacrifice I'm
willing to take.

I appreciate the angle you're coming from, that perhaps we as a society
need to depend on ourselves more than hoping for some magic cure in a
plastic bottle to come along and do the work for us.

But...I am low...and need all the help I can get.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:1t1t10p8439n2ud44qgvr91v4k4cj86ijk@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:45:41 GMT, Dylan Silvestro
> <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote:]
>
> > You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take
> > anti-depressants. I just want help to feel better.
> >
> > How come?
>
> Dylan, med's are very controversial among recovering
> alcoholics, as well as among those of us who are trying to
> recover. Very, very conroversial.
>
> There is a school of thought that -- to use my words --
> attacking the booze problem directly, without med's, may
> be more difficult, but is ultimately the way that is most
> likely to lead to success.

So, you chose the way that was least painful? How's that working out for
you?


Many of us have addictive
> personalities, and many of the med's are addictive.
> Getting off all chemicals that affect our moods is the
> path to take. Not the easiest, maybe, but the best one.
> Sobriety does not involve substituting one drug for
> another.

Ah, Harry. You mouth the words. When are you going to be willing to buy
what you are selling?

>
> There is another school of thought that says that med's
> are better than booze. They are less disruptive to your
> life. Even if you only take them for a relatively short
> period of time, they may help you transition off the
> booze.

This defies comment.

>
> I am caught in the middle to this argument myself right
> now. I have started taking a couple med's. I think one
> of them (Anafrinil) may be helping me, and the other one
> (Lorazepam) is bad for me.

Are you still taking overdoses and washing them down with scotch?

>
> My drinking has declined a fair amount. My anxiety has
> declined markedly, and -- to use your words -- I feel
> better about myself. So, in that sense, the med's do seem
> to be benefiting me.

It is the meds? Or less booze?

>
> Still, in a larger sense, I have to agree with Robert, the
> Moons, and the others who oppose med's. I see them as the
> equivalent of trying to fix a leaking gutter with duct
> tape.

So, why do you persist? Do you figure that if you continue to dote on
Rosie's theory of recovery that maybe she'll give you a peek at her dried up
old tits? What's your reasoning? What fantasy are you harboring?

>
> Bottom line: It is a personal decision. If you are taking
> them, please at least be sure to be under the care of a
> physician who knows something about all this. They aren't
> so easy to find.

Apparently.

>
> --
> Harry

[Robert McGregor]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:1n63cszzx8y4o$.1quv5qmrsbbvg.dlg@40tude.net.. .
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:56:16 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmrTb.24781$M81.7505@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >>> You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
> >> swallowed enough
> >>> of them. Fraud.
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>>
> >> i will be grateful, as long as i am sober, that there are folks
who
> >> understand and treat depression, ESPECIALLY for those of us who
are
> >> dually diagnosed.
> >>
> >> (no matter how much you and a few others in here, try to ridicule
> >> those of us with mental illness!)
> >>
> >
> > "Those of us" ????
> >
> > There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill
merely
> > to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence.
>
> You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take anti-depressants.
I
> just want help to feel better.
>
> How come?

Are you addicted to guilt? Precisely who "seems" to be bashing you?

Bob

[JB]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:i4369d5uivof$.1ufeopkmuzowh.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 16:33:12 -0000, JB wrote:
<snip>

> If a small pill in the morning gives me some added clarity and the
ability
> to put things into perspective a little quicker, then it's a
sacrifice I'm
> willing to take.
>
> I appreciate the angle you're coming from, that perhaps we as a
society
> need to depend on ourselves more than hoping for some magic cure in
a
> plastic bottle to come along and do the work for us.
>
> But...I am low...and need all the help I can get.

Hi,

Your reply makes me think that I have again not clearly expressed
myself.

At this time all that I think appropriate to say is FWIW,
irrespective of what anyone here says, you, Dylan, have to decide for
yourself whether or not to take your meds. You also have to decide
for yourself whether to cut down your drinking or quit drinking.
Furthermore, if anything anyone has said in this thread helps you
reach what you think is the "right" decision for you, then , IMO, that
would be a good thing .

Best regards

JB

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:15:51 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

> Are you addicted to guilt?

No, I'm not.

> Precisely who "seems" to be bashing you?

Just re-read some of the posts and take note of those which are carrying a
negative tone about anti-depressants and those that take them.

For example:

"You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've swallowed
enough of them. Fraud."

I don't know rosie's history here, but that seems awfully negative. As if
"swallowing" anti-depressants is something looked down upon.

"There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill merely
to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence."

As if taking anti-depressants is a dependence on drugs. And those that
don't take anti-depressants are somehow *not* pathetic.

Perhaps these are simply attacks on this rosie person...or perhaps they are
an attack on those that take anti-depressants.

I apologize for coming here looking for help. It appears as though my post
was simply an opportunity for some to make themselves appear better than
someone else. Thanks to those that offered a bit of friendly advice, but
my intention was not to be in an argument within a day of posting here.

Consider this my last post.
--
One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[rosie]

> Dylan, med's are very controversial among recovering
> alcoholics, as well as among those of us who are trying to
> recover. Very, very conroversial.
>
>

harry,
PLEASE don't generalize like that..................................
meds are controversial to those who choose to make it
so..................NOT recovering alcoholics in general!
:)

[rosie]

> > You folks seem to be bashing those of us that take
anti-depressants.
> I
> > just want help to feel better.
> >
> > How come?
>
> Are you addicted to guilt? Precisely who "seems" to be bashing
you?
>
> Bob
>
>

ROTFLMAO!

[rosie]

sorry to see you go dylan, but i totally understand.
email me if you want! (remove the NOT)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:75im7z8xxizj$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu. ..
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:15:51 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > Are you addicted to guilt?
>
> No, I'm not.
>
> > Precisely who "seems" to be bashing you?
>
> Just re-read some of the posts and take note of those which are
carrying a
> negative tone about anti-depressants and those that take them.
>
> For example:
>
> "You ought to be very familiar with antidepressants. You've
swallowed
> enough of them. Fraud."
>
> I don't know rosie's history here, but that seems awfully
negative. As if
> "swallowing" anti-depressants is something looked down upon.
>
> "There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill
merely
> to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence."
>
> As if taking anti-depressants is a dependence on drugs. And those
that
> don't take anti-depressants are somehow *not* pathetic.
>
> Perhaps these are simply attacks on this rosie person...or perhaps
they are
> an attack on those that take anti-depressants.
>
> I apologize for coming here looking for help. It appears as
though my post
> was simply an opportunity for some to make themselves appear
better than
> someone else. Thanks to those that offered a bit of friendly
advice, but
> my intention was not to be in an argument within a day of posting
here.
>
> Consider this my last post.
> --
> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jDxTb.12122$sd.7966@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> sorry to see you go dylan, but i totally understand.
> email me if you want! (remove the NOT)
>
> --

Do your sock puppets email you?

Bob

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:56:08 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:jDxTb.12122$sd.7966@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> sorry to see you go dylan, but i totally understand.
>> email me if you want! (remove the NOT)
>>
>> --
>
> Do your sock puppets email you?
>
> Bob

If I may. And pardon me for saying I wouldn't post again, but yet still
posting.

I'm not rosie's sock. You're quite an ass. I came here looking for help,
not saying rosie gave it to me, but some did. You and your inability to
control yourself managed to counteract anything of value I've gained in
this thread.

The only thing you've contributed to this thread is negativity.

If you are unable to contribute something positive perhaps you shouldn't
contribute anything at all. What is your problem???

If you're only purpose is to continue some personal flame war with someone
and drag it across anyone else you happen to cross paths with take it to
email...you've done no one any good here and only managed to piss me off
when I was starting to think this might be a nice place to post.
--
One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[Robert McGregor]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:35qqq0ltlu9o.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu.. .
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 05:56:08 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:jDxTb.12122$sd.7966@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >> sorry to see you go dylan, but i totally understand.
> >> email me if you want! (remove the NOT)
> >>
> >> --
> >
> > Do your sock puppets email you?
> >
> > Bob
>
> If I may. And pardon me for saying I wouldn't post again, but yet
still
> posting.
>
> I'm not rosie's sock. You're quite an ass. I came here looking for
help,
> not saying rosie gave it to me, but some did. You and your
inability to
> control yourself managed to counteract anything of value I've gained
in
> this thread.
>
> The only thing you've contributed to this thread is negativity.
>
> If you are unable to contribute something positive perhaps you
shouldn't
> contribute anything at all. What is your problem???
>
> If you're only purpose is to continue some personal flame war with
someone
> and drag it across anyone else you happen to cross paths with take
it to
> email...you've done no one any good here and only managed to piss me
off
> when I was starting to think this might be a nice place to post.
> --
> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

Feel better now?

Bob

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

> Feel better now?

No.

And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
--
One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[Robert McGregor]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:1jrbzk940bi2j$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > Feel better now?
>
> No.
>
> And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
> --
> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

I aint apologising for your misconceptions.

Bob

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:33:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

> "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> news:1jrbzk940bi2j$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
>> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>>
>>> Feel better now?
>>
>> No.
>>
>> And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
>> --
>> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.
>
> I aint apologising for your misconceptions.

I knew it was too much to ask.

You called me a sock. Not a misconception.

You and your actions turned this thread into crap. Not a misconception.

The only misconception here is your inability to see you've turned yet
another aspect of your life to shit.
--
One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[Robert McGregor]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:f8ulv223khkj.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu.. .
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:33:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> > news:1jrbzk940bi2j$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
> >> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
> >>
> >>> Feel better now?
> >>
> >> No.
> >>
> >> And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
> >> --
> >> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.
> >
> > I aint apologising for your misconceptions.
>
> I knew it was too much to ask.
>
> You called me a sock. Not a misconception.

If I was sure you were a sock puppet, I would call you one.

>
> You and your actions turned this thread into crap. Not a
misconception.

You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming folk
here for a long time.

>
> The only misconception here is your inability to see you've turned
yet
> another aspect of your life to shit.

Keep coming back.

Bob

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:44:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

> "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> news:f8ulv223khkj.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu.. .
>> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:33:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>>
>>> "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
>>> news:1jrbzk940bi2j$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
>>>> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Feel better now?
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
>>>> --
>>>> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.
>>>
>>> I aint apologising for your misconceptions.
>>
>> I knew it was too much to ask.
>>
>> You called me a sock. Not a misconception.
>
> If I was sure you were a sock puppet, I would call you one.

You did.

>> You and your actions turned this thread into crap. Not a
> misconception.
>
> You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming folk here
> for a long time.

Because you chose to paint all people "pathetic" in your personal ad
hominem against this rosie person.

I took offense to your obtuseness.

When pointing out to you that what you said was rather insensitive, you
continued the "bully" act and refused to apologize. Blaming *me* for your
own aggressiveness.

And are still refusing to see what you've done to this thread. Actually,
the more realistic circumstance is that you do, in fact, see it...yet place
more value on saving face in a faceless environment than you do in treating
people with respect and refuse to admit it.

>> The only misconception here is your inability to see you've turned
> yet
>> another aspect of your life to shit.
>
> Keep coming back.

You've been a great help, how could I not?
--
One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[Robert McGregor]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:1h7oa7aw5xpa4$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:44:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> > news:f8ulv223khkj.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu.. .
> >> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:33:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> >>> news:1jrbzk940bi2j$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
> >>>> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Feel better now?
> >>>>
> >>>> No.
> >>>>
> >>>> And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
> >>>> --
> >>>> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.
> >>>
> >>> I aint apologising for your misconceptions.
> >>
> >> I knew it was too much to ask.
> >>
> >> You called me a sock. Not a misconception.
> >
> > If I was sure you were a sock puppet, I would call you one.
>
> You did.

For all I know you are a sock puppet, doesn't matter to me either way.
However by asking the question without even mentioning you, I did
*not* call you a sockpuppet.

>
> >> You and your actions turned this thread into crap. Not a
> > misconception.
> >
> > You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming
folk here
> > for a long time.
>
> Because you chose to paint all people "pathetic" in your personal ad
> hominem against this rosie person.

Bullshit.

>
> I took offense to your obtuseness.

That's your problem, not mine.

>
> When pointing out to you that what you said was rather insensitive,
you
> continued the "bully" act and refused to apologize. Blaming *me*
for your
> own aggressiveness.

I owe no apology to you

>
> And are still refusing to see what you've done to this thread.
Actually,
> the more realistic circumstance is that you do, in fact, see
it...yet place
> more value on saving face in a faceless environment than you do in
treating
> people with respect and refuse to admit it.

I entered this thread when rosie claimed to be "sharing" experience
she does not have. If that bothers you, too bad.

Bob

[Dylan Silvestro]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 07:16:01 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:

>>>>> I aint apologising for your misconceptions.
>>>>
>>>> I knew it was too much to ask.
>>>>
>>>> You called me a sock. Not a misconception.
>>>
>>> If I was sure you were a sock puppet, I would call you one.
>>
>> You did.
>
> For all I know you are a sock puppet, doesn't matter to me either way.
> However by asking the question without even mentioning you, I did
> *not* call you a sockpuppet.

She was replying to me, telling me to email her.

You replied to her, "Do your sock puppets email you?"

Do I really need to restate all the threads for you, or are you going to
stop being obtuse?

>
>>
>>>> You and your actions turned this thread into crap. Not a
>>> misconception.
>>>
>>> You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming
> folk here
>>> for a long time.
>>
>> Because you chose to paint all people "pathetic" in your personal ad
>> hominem against this rosie person.
>
> Bullshit.

I'll quote for you again...

"There's only one of you poopski, masquerading as mentally ill merely
to legitimise your pathetic drug dependence."

You view taking anti-depressants as "pathetic drug dependance".

Do I really need to restate all the threads for you, or are you going to
stop being obtuse?

>
>>
>> I took offense to your obtuseness.
>
> That's your problem, not mine.

Your inability to carry on a discourse without ad hominems isn't *my*
problem.

Your inability to own up to your own offensiveness is not *my* problem.

I'd like to be able to be the carrier of your personal problems and denial,
however I have my own to deal with which is what this thread was started
for.

However, since your involvement in the thread that has been lost.

>
>>
>> When pointing out to you that what you said was rather insensitive,
> you
>> continued the "bully" act and refused to apologize. Blaming *me*
> for your
>> own aggressiveness.
>
> I owe no apology to you

You do, but like I said you place more value on saving face than you do in
treating people with respect.

>
>>
>> And are still refusing to see what you've done to this thread.
> Actually,
>> the more realistic circumstance is that you do, in fact, see
> it...yet place
>> more value on saving face in a faceless environment than you do in
> treating
>> people with respect and refuse to admit it.
>
> I entered this thread when rosie claimed to be "sharing" experience
> she does not have. If that bothers you, too bad.

You replying to rosie isn't what bothered me, horrible strawman.

Three attempts at explaining it and you still don't see it?

Also, in your future replies can you please trim and format your replies
properly? It's getting increasingly difficult to point out your more
complex idiocies when you're failing at even the basics of online
communication.
--
One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

[JB]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:1h7oa7aw5xpa4$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:44:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> > "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> > news:f8ulv223khkj.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu.. .
> >> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:33:18 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
> >>> news:1jrbzk940bi2j$.dlg@wRefru6aswax2bre4e9rA3.edu ...
> >>>> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:21:31 +1000, Robert McGregor wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Feel better now?
> >>>>
> >>>> No.
> >>>>
> >>>> And I won't until I hear *some* kind of apology from you.
> >>>> --
> >>>> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.
> >>>
> >>> I aint apologising for your misconceptions.
> >>
> >> I knew it was too much to ask.
> >>
> >> You called me a sock. Not a misconception.
> >
> > If I was sure you were a sock puppet, I would call you one.
>
> You did.
>
> >> You and your actions turned this thread into crap. Not a
> > misconception.
> >
> > You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming
folk here
> > for a long time.
>
> Because you chose to paint all people "pathetic" in your personal ad
> hominem against this rosie person.
>
> I took offense to your obtuseness.
>
> When pointing out to you that what you said was rather insensitive,
you
> continued the "bully" act and refused to apologize. Blaming *me*
for your
> own aggressiveness.
>
> And are still refusing to see what you've done to this thread.
Actually,
> the more realistic circumstance is that you do, in fact, see
it...yet place
> more value on saving face in a faceless environment than you do in
treating
> people with respect and refuse to admit it.
>
> >> The only misconception here is your inability to see you've
turned
> > yet
> >> another aspect of your life to shit.
> >
> > Keep coming back.
>
> You've been a great help, how could I not?
> --
> One Man Gathers What Another Man Spills.

Dear Dylan,

I've learnt many valuable lessons since joining this NG. At this
time, I'd like to share three of them:

1. I've learnt not to expect people to always behave in ways that
allow me to remain calm.

2. I've learnt that I've no power to make anyone say or do anything
that they do not want to say or do.

3. I've learnt that if I manage to stay calm no matter what is said
to or about me, I'll most likely feel far better and also more in
control of myself than I would if I flew off the handle.

FWIW, when I first joined this NG, IMO, some people gave me a very
rough time. IMO, some continue to do so. Nevertheless, without this
NG and my AA meetings, I do not think that I would now have almost
eight months of sobriety under my belt and more hope/confidence of
being able to cope better with my life yet to come than I did with my
life that's past by.

If you decide not to stay with this NG yet feel you need a group to
support you and help you overcome whatever troubles you, I hope you
will quickly find a suitable group. Whatever you decide to do, I wish
you well

Best regards

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"Dylan Silvestro" <dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote in message
news:rt08nzb4s5z6.1gvr1ad5qvw2s$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> Why can't I be a normal drinker? Am I a crazy person? Why me?

Why not you?

Bye

Bob

[rosie]

> You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming
folk
> here for a long time.
>


another PERFECT example of your lack of integrity robert!

[rosie]

> I entered this thread when rosie claimed to be "sharing"
experience
> she does not have.


> Bob


another lie.........................shit bob, your beating your own
record in just one thread!

[rosie]

>
> If I was sure you were a sock puppet, I would call you one.
>


another robert lie........................

[rosie]

> For all I know you are a sock puppet, doesn't matter to me either
way.
> However by asking the question without even mentioning you, I did
> *not* call you a sockpuppet.
>


a sample of ROBERT being obtuse....................
ROTFLMAO!

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vNzTb.25002$M81.20563@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > For all I know you are a sock puppet, doesn't matter to me either
> way.
> > However by asking the question without even mentioning you, I did
> > *not* call you a sockpuppet.
> >
>
>
> a sample of ROBERT being obtuse....................
> ROTFLMAO!
>
>

Poopski, feel better now?

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rIzTb.24988$M81.16384@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > You chose to personalise a post to rosie, who has been flaming
> folk
> > here for a long time.
> >
>
>
> another PERFECT example of your lack of integrity robert!
>
>

Jeez, poopski, that's more fart than flame.

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 21:24:53 GMT, Dylan Silvestro
<dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote:]

> Do I really need to restate all the threads for you, or
> are you going to stop being obtuse?

Dylan, try to stay calm.

I've gotten my share of "feedback" from Robert and some of
the others. It isn't always fun to read, but their
messages are still just words on the screen. You can
think about them or pass them over. They can't possibly
hurt you as much as the booze does.

One thing I actually like about this newsgoup is that
people will give you shit. I don't think we are supposed
to go around hunting for only those who smile and nod and
pat us on the back.

I hope you will keep posting.

--
Harry

[rosie]

> > a sample of ROBERT being obtuse....................
> > ROTFLMAO!
> >
> >
>
> Poopski, feel better now?
>
> Bob
>
>

;)

yes, thank you.......................

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 13:33:47 -0500, "Moonraker"
<notnow@noway.nev> wrote:]

> > There is a school of thought that -- to use my words --
> > attacking the booze problem directly, without med's, may
> > be more difficult, but is ultimately the way that is most
> > likely to lead to success.
>
> So, you chose the way that was least painful? How's that
> working out for you?

Not perfectly. I think I explained that in my previous
post.

I thought is was worth it -- for me -- to give med's a
try. That wasn't my idea going in, but I had had several
failures trying to just quit.

I get very weary from my failures. Suicidal, to be frank.
I thought the med's were worth a try. I still do.

The Lorazepam knocks me out. It is worse than booze.
I'll finish this prescription, but that will be the end of
those. Regardless of what the shrink says.

I will continue with the Ananfrinil for a bit longer.

Then I'll go down to Mexico for a couple weeks, come back,
and go over to UV a and get a colonoscopy.

That should be fun. I'll get to find out if they are
simply hemorrhoids, or if they are a symptom of
colo-rectal cancer.

We should know about these things, don't you think?

A 23 y.o. female intern snaps on her latex gloves and
tells you to roll over in your side...

Could Disneyland be any better?

My, drinking is certainly fun.

The Superbowl turned out pretty good. The farting
Budwiser horse and Janice Jackson's bare bossom seem to
have been the highlights.

--
Harry

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aYATb.25045$M81.11632@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > a sample of ROBERT being obtuse....................
> > > ROTFLMAO!
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Poopski, feel better now?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
> ;)
>
> yes, thank you.......................
>
>
she's apparently easily amused when properly dosed with her
anti-depressants.

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:t9BTb.13588$7I3.4280@bignews4.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:aYATb.25045$M81.11632@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > a sample of ROBERT being obtuse....................
> > > > ROTFLMAO!
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Poopski, feel better now?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> >
> > ;)
> >
> > yes, thank you.......................
> >
> >
> she's apparently easily amused when properly dosed with her
> anti-depressants.
>

Seems it satisfies her when she accuses others of her own
shortcomings.

Bob

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:9slt105k3ic5ihk7ob79568b8q5vis824t@4ax.com...
> The Superbowl turned out pretty good. The farting
> Budwiser horse and Janice Jackson's bare bossom seem to
> have been the highlights.
>
> --
> Harry

I missed the tit.....but as I remember it was on display in Playboy years
ago. I wonder if SHE likes little girls? Does it run in the fambly?

I liked the one ad with the old couple fighting over the bag of chips, too.

When I lived in St. Louis, my next door neighbor's son was creative
director for the ad agency that had the Bud account. Remember the frogs on
the lily pads? He came up with that out in my back yard, as we were
sitting on the bank of the subdivision lake, swatting mosquitos and drowning
worms.

[rosie]

>............... Remember the frogs on
> the lily pads? He came up with that out in my back yard, as we
were
> sitting on the bank of the subdivision lake, swatting mosquitos
and drowning
> worms.
>
>

yeah..........................right!
;)

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 02:25:26 GMT, "Julie LaRue"
<Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Hmmm........the following comments are MEDICAL advice concerning a drug that
>this guy is taking. When I read them I thought I should point out that
>making such comments can be misleading to someone who is suffering.
>Especially since ANTIDEPRESSANTS can have a wide range of effects on any
>given individual. Since none of you are Doctors or Pharmacists such
>comments can be medically dangerous.
>
>Just stay focused on the problems alcohol causes..........this is our
>EXPERIENCE, STRENGTH, AND HOPE.

When it comes to ADs, you don't have a clue what my "experience",
"strength" or "hope" is.

And, if you're going to tell everyone else to stay focused on the
problems alcohol causes, either practice what you preach or don't
preach it. "Do as I say not as I do" hasn't worked here before, and
you won't change it now.

>"Alcohol is a depressant, so if you quit the booze perhaps you'll find
>you no longer need the drugs." (you don't know this true).

Sure I do. "perhaps you'll find you no longer need the drugs". It's
not a factual certainty, but I'm damn convinced it's a statistical
probability. Hence the word "perhaps".

>"your antidepressants really aren't benefiting you when you drink.
>so DECREASING your drinking while taking them isn't really going to
>help your depression." (you have no idea of the benefits he may get)

Read the contraindications of the drug and you'll find out.

>"no, i'm telling you that taking ANTIDEPRESSANTS with alcohol negates
>most of the effects of the antidepressants!" (again, everyone is different.
>could be true, but you have no idea)

Ditto above.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:28:36 GMT, " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>
>> Dylan, med's are very controversial among recovering
>> alcoholics, as well as among those of us who are trying to
>> recover. Very, very conroversial.
>>
>>
>
>harry,
>PLEASE don't generalize like that..................................
>meds are controversial to those who choose to make it
>so..................NOT recovering alcoholics in general!
>:)

Are you seriously suggesting that you've not actively contributed to
making the subject highly controversial here?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:26:48 GMT, Dylan Silvestro
<dsilvestro@munged.org> wrote:

>I don't know rosie's history here, but that seems awfully negative. As if
>"swallowing" anti-depressants is something looked down upon.

Perhaps you need to understand some of that history in order to
understand present discussion. It's really not about you at all.

>As if taking anti-depressants is a dependence on drugs.

Er.... isn't it? How do you define "drug dependency"?

>Perhaps these are simply attacks on this rosie person...or perhaps they are
>an attack on those that take anti-depressants.

Antidepressants serve a purpose. As does Rosie. But I'm afraid that
Rosie and sensible or honestly-open discussion of ADs do not mix.

--
Blue Moon

[rosie]

> But I'm afraid that
> Rosie and sensible or honestly-open discussion of ADs do not mix.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

this is a perfect example of "the message" you and a couple others
send, when the subject of antidepressants come
up......................
the most interesting thing to me about your participation on this
topic BM, is that it appears that you DO UNDERSTAND the necessity,
at times, for taking prescribed antidepressants, but you continue to
BLUR the message, by your trolling of me.
that is a shame, and a perfect example of relapse behavior.

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:etNTb.14976$2h.7670@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > But I'm afraid that
> > Rosie and sensible or honestly-open discussion of ADs do not mix.
> >
> > --
> > Blue Moon
>
> this is a perfect example of "the message" you and a couple others
> send, when the subject of antidepressants come
> up......................
> the most interesting thing to me about your participation on this
> topic BM, is that it appears that you DO UNDERSTAND the necessity,
> at times, for taking prescribed antidepressants, but you continue to
> BLUR the message, by your trolling of me.
> that is a shame, and a perfect example of relapse behavior.

Rosie,

Yesterday, I asked you the question:

""Should antidepressants only be prescribed in order to correct a
chemical imbalance in the brain ?"

I directed my question at you because that same day you stated that
you were:

" ...... a health professional, who is VERY familiar with
antidepressants and their contraindications" (" rosie"
<readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6rkTb.24532$M81.15618@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com)
..
If, indeed, your professional training has enabled you to become more
familiar with ad's and their contradictions, than anyone who has:
merely taken them; read the warning leaflets inside the packets;
and/or looked for info on the internet, and you also have a genuine
interest in helping at least one person here to better understand when
it might be appropriate and inappropriate to take ad's, what good
does not sharing that knowledge do ?

FWIW, you once said to me:

"don't worry about what other (robert and i) folks
think................... " (From: -rosie-
(readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com) 17th Jan 2004:

Now, in a spirit of friendship, I say to you:

If you have info about the use of ad's that might benefit someone
here, I hope you'll reconsider your decision not to answer my
question:.

""Should antidepressants only be prescribed in order to correct a
chemical imbalance in the brain ?"

Yours

JB

[Blue Moon]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 07:34:25 -0600, " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> But I'm afraid that
>> Rosie and sensible or honestly-open discussion of ADs do not mix.
>>
>> --
>> Blue Moon
>
>this is a perfect example of "the message" you and a couple others
>send, when the subject of antidepressants come
>up......................

I stand by my statement.

>the most interesting thing to me about your participation on this
>topic BM, is that it appears that you DO UNDERSTAND the necessity,
>at times, for taking prescribed antidepressants

Certainly. I am just wary of long-term dependency thereon when the
chemical imbalances they're supposed to treat are rarely tested, and I
prescribe extreme caution with any notion of putting blind faith in
doctors. I, and I alone, am responsible for any substance beyond smog
that knowingly enters my body whether it be prescribed or not.

>but you continue to
>BLUR the message, by your trolling of me.

Whatever.

>that is a shame, and a perfect example of relapse behavior.

LOL thanks for the smile. Despite your wishes there's no danger of me
relapsing on this topic.

--
Blue Moon

[rosie]

>............... I, and I alone, am responsible for any substance
beyond smog
> that knowingly enters my body whether it be prescribed or not.
>


you actually would have better luck controlling smog, than trying to
control mental illness.

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rTZTb.19828$2h.2131@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >............... I, and I alone, am responsible for any substance
> beyond smog
> > that knowingly enters my body whether it be prescribed or not.
> >
>
>
> you actually would have better luck controlling smog, than trying to
> control mental illness.
>


"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message

<MU0Fa.72106$jT4.1515242@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

> i stay in ARAA (with an active killfile) to share my experience,
strength
and hope and to remind those who come, that
> these few folks ARE NOT a sample of the loving understanding, that
can be
found in AA and other support groups!

[rosie]

bob,
are you wondering about my killfile?
its working just fine thanks..............................

btw,

GOOD MORNING SWEETIE!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvq4mq$v89o9$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:rTZTb.19828$2h.2131@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >............... I, and I alone, am responsible for any
substance
> > beyond smog
> > > that knowingly enters my body whether it be prescribed or not.
> > >
> >
> >
> > you actually would have better luck controlling smog, than
trying to
> > control mental illness.
> >
>
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message
>
> <MU0Fa.72106$jT4.1515242@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>
> > i stay in ARAA (with an active killfile) to share my
experience,
> strength
> and hope and to remind those who come, that
> > these few folks ARE NOT a sample of the loving understanding,
that
> can be
> found in AA and other support groups!
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cX5Ub.29257$M81.14370@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> bob,
> are you wondering about my killfile?

No.

[Blue Moon]

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 21:41:35 -0600, " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>>............... I, and I alone, am responsible for any substance
>beyond smog
>> that knowingly enters my body whether it be prescribed or not.
>>
>you actually would have better luck controlling smog, than trying to
>control mental illness.

What's that got to do with the price of bacon? Or are you having a
different discussion to everyone else? I was talking, specifically,
about consumption. Having recovered from the alcoholic condition of
"needing" a drink, I am able to take responsibility for what I do or
don't consume. Not something I was able to do prior to recovery. So
are you suggesting you have no control over consumption of
medications? If so, you're more dependent on them than I had
realised.

--
Blue Moon