A request for your thoughts

[Kai]

I have been lurking here for several months, and while I am not the
alcoholic,
I have found your comments enlightening and encouraging. I am
struggling to understand,
and make some sort of sense of it all. And, failing that, perhaps reach
a sense of peace
and serenity for myself.

I have tried Al-Anon, and found them useless. I have tried reading,
meditating, yoga, widening my circle of friends, detachment,
involvement... you name it, I've given
it a go over the past few years. My husband licked this problem once,
and stayed sober for over 15 years.

Then, 5 years ago, for who knows what reason, he surrendered again. It
has been a long fight,
but I think we are on the road back again. He entered a long term
treatment program, and will be
returning home at the end of this month. He has been home several
weekends, but as the time approaches,
I am feeling uncertain as to how to regain "our" life together. How do
I support his efforts?

I have no desire to return to the power struggles - I have no chance of
ever winning against the booze.
He says the desire to drink is no longer a problem. For this I am
profoundly grateful.
I know about the "honeymoon" period when he first comes out of
treatment... we have been through this
several times in the past several years. The difference this time is
not only the length of time that
he has been away from home, but I have changed as well. This was truly
his last chance with me.
I had reached a point where I was no longer able to watch helplessly as
he killed himself one day at a time
in front of me.

It was his choice to enter treatment, I had told him after the last
rehab experience that "I" would never
again put him in any hospital. That choice was his, alone...but he must
realize that I had choices to make
as well. The man that I love has returned, and I want "him" to
stay.

There are plenty of problems waiting for him when he does return home to
stay - extended family turmoil,
financial, etc. I am sure you all know the drill. But he is my main
concern, and if all is right with us,
the rest will settle as it will. I have no control over how others think
and react, and have no desire to.

So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
place?
How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does he
need from me now?

Kai

> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
> place?
> How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does
he
> need from me now?
>
> Kai

perhaps give ALANON another try?
maybe therapy with an ADDICTIONS counselor?

[Moonraker]

" <rosie>" <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:749Tb.9018$2h.2708@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> maybe therapy with an ADDICTIONS counselor?
>
Another backhanded solicitation for your unliscenced "practice".

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:

>There are plenty of problems waiting for him when he does return home to
>stay - extended family turmoil, financial, etc. I am sure you all know the
>drill. But he is my main concern, and if all is right with us, the rest will
>settle as it will. I have no control over how others think and react, and
>have no desire to.

The important question is not "do I have a desire to drink today?",
but rather "what am I going to do to maintain a healthy perspective?"
If hubby gets out of treatment and carries on doing exactly the same
things as before, the eventual outcome is likely to be the same. He
needs to keep his recovery alive, a day at a time. That needs to be
his primary responsibility, above bills or anything else. Not always
convenient, but neither is kidney dialysis. Only time can actually
tell whether this is the reality.

>So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
>place?
>How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does he
>need from me now?

Your job is to look after you. Always try to say what you mean, and
mean what you say.

--
Blue Moon

>...................... He
> needs to keep his recovery alive, a day at a time. That needs to
be
> his primary responsibility, above bills or anything else. Not
always
> convenient, but neither is kidney dialysis.

:)

>
> Your job is to look after you.

great post BM!

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai
<bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:]

> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What
> is my place? How do I support and encourage without being
> intrusive? What does he need from me now?

Kai, this won't be encouraging, but I'll say it anyway:

First, I think you should be clear to him about the things
you said to us above. IE, that you love him and want to
stay with him, but that you *will* leave if the drinking
resumes. That you want to work together with him thru the
various problems you may have.

What I mean is that I think you should have a blunt,
frank, but as pleasant as possible conversation with him.
Tell him where you are. This is not a threat, it is
simply a fact that he needs to recognize. Do this when
the kids aren't around. Make sure he believes you. Make
sure you believe yourself. In the end, it should be a
loving conversation.

Second, I would make a realistic contingency plan for
yourself and the kids. The odds are against him
permanently getting off the booze. I have seen various
statistics, and I have experienced the fight myself. The
stat I have seen the most is that only about 17% of people
who enter AA stay sober. Who knows if that is accurate?
Nobody.

But it is clear that you need to have a plan that covers
your rear-end if things go bad again. Not a bluff, but
something you can and will do. Determination.

This may include taking some practical steps, like
possibly seeing an attorney and separating yourself from
him financially as much as possible.

I realize that isn't nice, but one of the first things
they taught us in the EMT training class I started to
attend was that your first priority has to be to look out
for yourself. You can't help anyone else when you are
impaired. We alcoholics tend to impair the people around
us. Don't let yourself get caught up in that.

Third, do your best to change your daily routines. I am
speaking mostly from myself here, but I do believe the
daily routines play a part in the other things we do.
Come home, fix a drink. It gets to be a habit.

Make that, come home and go for a walk. Whatever.
Something that breaks the chain of our behaviors. It
might be something very small.

Good luck!

--
Harry

EXCELLENT ADVISE HARRY!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:0ifq10hjh0bv56j7vlls42l7ccqd0v85lk@4ax.com...
> [On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai
> <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:]
>
> > So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What
> > is my place? How do I support and encourage without being
> > intrusive? What does he need from me now?
>
> Kai, this won't be encouraging, but I'll say it anyway:
>
> First, I think you should be clear to him about the things
> you said to us above. IE, that you love him and want to
> stay with him, but that you *will* leave if the drinking
> resumes. That you want to work together with him thru the
> various problems you may have.
>
> What I mean is that I think you should have a blunt,
> frank, but as pleasant as possible conversation with him.
> Tell him where you are. This is not a threat, it is
> simply a fact that he needs to recognize. Do this when
> the kids aren't around. Make sure he believes you. Make
> sure you believe yourself. In the end, it should be a
> loving conversation.
>
> Second, I would make a realistic contingency plan for
> yourself and the kids. The odds are against him
> permanently getting off the booze. I have seen various
> statistics, and I have experienced the fight myself. The
> stat I have seen the most is that only about 17% of people
> who enter AA stay sober. Who knows if that is accurate?
> Nobody.
>
> But it is clear that you need to have a plan that covers
> your rear-end if things go bad again. Not a bluff, but
> something you can and will do. Determination.
>
> This may include taking some practical steps, like
> possibly seeing an attorney and separating yourself from
> him financially as much as possible.
>
> I realize that isn't nice, but one of the first things
> they taught us in the EMT training class I started to
> attend was that your first priority has to be to look out
> for yourself. You can't help anyone else when you are
> impaired. We alcoholics tend to impair the people around
> us. Don't let yourself get caught up in that.
>
> Third, do your best to change your daily routines. I am
> speaking mostly from myself here, but I do believe the
> daily routines play a part in the other things we do.
> Come home, fix a drink. It gets to be a habit.
>
> Make that, come home and go for a walk. Whatever.
> Something that breaks the chain of our behaviors. It
> might be something very small.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> Harry

[Ron]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:47:36 -0500,
The Other Harry <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote:

> [On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai
><bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:]
>
>> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What
>> is my place? How do I support and encourage without being
>> intrusive? What does he need from me now?
>
> What I mean is that I think you should have a blunt,
> frank, but as pleasant as possible conversation with him.

I agree. I'd also recommend doing this in the morning, or rather *not*
after work, supper, getting the kids in bed (or whatever it is for you).
My personal experience is that is just a bad time to have serious
discussions.

> Third, do your best to change your daily routines.

Yeah. That's what I think I'm finding out also. Easier said than done,
but I think it's true.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Julie LaRue]

Dear Kai,

>What do I do?

You need to take care of yourself and simply allow him to go to as many AA
meeting as possible and READ chapter eight, "To Wives" in the Big Book
(Alcoholics Anonymous).



>What is my place?

Just to listen to him, go to open discussion meeting, conventions, and
speaker meetings with him if you want, but there is nothing else you can do
for HIM.





>How do I support and encourage without being intrusive?

You said you have " tried Al-Anon and found them useless." I bet you have
heard your husband say the same thing about AA, but these two programs are
your only real choice of having a life like you desire with your husband.

Did you HONESTLY work through the steps with a Al-Anon sponsor? Help other
Al-Anon's that needed help?

Do you really think that you don't have a problem that needs attention? You
are the sober person who decided to tolerate the abuse this man could give
you. You are sicker than your husband in many ways and you need someone to
help you see this.

You need to finally learn how to take care of yourself instead of your
alcoholic.

Did you happen to notice that all of your questions are about what you can
do for HIM?

Wake up woman! Go back to Al-Anon, be open and honest, LISTEN to their
advice and put it into ACTION.

OR

You can keep doing the same things and keep getting the same bad results.
Its your life, live it.

Many prayers for you both,

Julie




"Kai" <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:401D195B.2FFF14B@ccm.tdsnet.com...
> I have been lurking here for several months, and while I am not the
> alcoholic,
> I have found your comments enlightening and encouraging. I am
> struggling to understand,
> and make some sort of sense of it all. And, failing that, perhaps reach
> a sense of peace
> and serenity for myself.
>
> I have tried Al-Anon, and found them useless. I have tried reading,
> meditating, yoga, widening my circle of friends, detachment,
> involvement... you name it, I've given
> it a go over the past few years. My husband licked this problem once,
> and stayed sober for over 15 years.
>
> Then, 5 years ago, for who knows what reason, he surrendered again. It
> has been a long fight,
> but I think we are on the road back again. He entered a long term
> treatment program, and will be
> returning home at the end of this month. He has been home several
> weekends, but as the time approaches,
> I am feeling uncertain as to how to regain "our" life together. How do
> I support his efforts?
>
> I have no desire to return to the power struggles - I have no chance of
> ever winning against the booze.
> He says the desire to drink is no longer a problem. For this I am
> profoundly grateful.
> I know about the "honeymoon" period when he first comes out of
> treatment... we have been through this
> several times in the past several years. The difference this time is
> not only the length of time that
> he has been away from home, but I have changed as well. This was truly
> his last chance with me.
> I had reached a point where I was no longer able to watch helplessly as
> he killed himself one day at a time
> in front of me.
>
> It was his choice to enter treatment, I had told him after the last
> rehab experience that "I" would never
> again put him in any hospital. That choice was his, alone...but he must
> realize that I had choices to make
> as well. The man that I love has returned, and I want "him" to
> stay.
>
> There are plenty of problems waiting for him when he does return home to
> stay - extended family turmoil,
> financial, etc. I am sure you all know the drill. But he is my main
> concern, and if all is right with us,
> the rest will settle as it will. I have no control over how others think
> and react, and have no desire to.
>
> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
> place?
> How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does he
> need from me now?
>
> Kai

[Kai]

I thank you all for your thoughts. I agree with your
main idea, that being I need to take care of myself
first...and that is what I have been doing for the past
year. Perhaps I should have been clearer in expressing
that point. I have made profound changes in my life,
including therapy.

I do not depend on my husband to define my existence,
rather to enrich my life. Each member of a team must
pull their own weight, yet function together to move
forward. This was the point of my request. I understand
that I am powerless over the disease, that is his fight
alone. In fact, I had left our home, with a plan, and
returned to pack a few final items and pick up my dog
when this final entry into rehab occurred. He had already
left, and checked himself in.

I have continued on with my life, while he has been gone
and life does go on - and I feel that while he is making
an honest and serious attempt to improve his (and our)
life together - I wish to do the same.

My eyes are unfortunately wide open as to the risks and
hazards ahead.. I have lived them before. But, I will
state that he has NEVER before approached the problem
with such seriousness and courage.

As I said before, I am changed - hopefully for the
better, and have no desire whatsoever to return to the
way things were. He was NEVER abusive towards me, in the
classic sense. It was witnessing self-abuse that was torturing
me. I made no excuses, and told no lies to protect him.
My friends and family were fully aware of what was going on
and I had their full support. I was never isolated.

It took me a full year to prepare myself for the action I
eventually took...and thank you Harry, for pointing that
out. As they say before take off, make sure your mask is
in place before trying to help others. I prepared for the
worst, financially, physically and emotionally - while hoping
for the best.

Fortunately, this time around, our son is grown and on his
own, and has been a rock for me. We have been married for
23 years, and retirement is a major challenge approaching
us now.

I did not wish to appear needy and pleading for answers for questions
that obviously have no definitive answers, I was merely
asking for a different perspective from uninvolved yet
knowledgeable individuals. I never felt that honoring my vow to him to
live in sickness and health made me a sick twisted person, as long
as I did not succumb to sickness myself.

I wish to be his partner in life, not his caretaker.


Thanks again.

Kai

[rosie]

> I did not wish to appear needy and pleading for answers for
questions
> that obviously have no definitive answers, I was merely
> asking for a different perspective from uninvolved yet
> knowledgeable individuals.


you didn't sound "needy" to me, but rather a women who loves her
husband and hates his disease.



> I wish to be his partner in life, not his caretaker.
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Kai



best of everything to you.................
rosie

p.s. btw, my husband absolutely HATED
alanon............................and did not continue.
i've been sober for 21+yrs and we are doing fine!
:)

[Julie LaRue]

Kai,

Thanks for the details and I do give you a plenty of credit for dong the
positive things you mentioned. I must point out though that you ignored my
questions about having a Al-Anon sponsor and working the steps with her.
You haven't given Al-Anon a chance to help you if you haven't done this and
I would pray that you reconsider.



"Al-Anon has but one purpose: to help families of alcoholics. We do this by
practicing the Twelve Steps, by welcoming and giving comfort to families of
alcoholics, and by giving understanding and encouragement to the alcoholic."
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/



Going to a therapist or counselor can be a great help, but nothing has
helped me to learn how to live with alcoholism more than listening to the
solutions given by people who have suffered as I have (AA, NA, and Al-Anon).
Its much cheaper also.



Answer these questions at http://www.al-anon.org/quiz.html and see what you
think.



Why would you leave the safety and comfort of YOUR home because your HUSBAND
is an alcoholic. He is the one who needs to leave if he is wishes to drink.
Allowing him to stay in your home is just another way that you enable him to
continue to drink. Let him suffer the consequences of HIS actions.

Much love,

Julie

Thanks for the details and I do give you a plenty of credit for dong the
positive things you mentioned. I must point out though that you ignored my
questions about having a Al-Anon sponsor and working the steps with her.
You haven't given Al-anon a chance to help you if you haven't done this and
I would pray that you reconsider.



"Al-Anon has but one purpose: to help families of alcoholics. We do this by
practicing the Twelve Steps, by welcoming and giving comfort to families of
alcoholics, and by giving understanding and encouragement to the alcoholic."
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/



Going to a therapist or counselor can be a great help, but nothing has
helped me to learn how to live with alcoholism more than listening to the
solutions given by people who have suffered as I have (AA, NA, and Al-Anon).
Its much cheaper also.



Answer these questions at http://www.al-anon.org/quiz.html and see what you
think.



Why would you leave the safety and comfort of YOUR home because your HUSBAND
is an alcoholic. He is the one who needs to leave if he is wishes to drink.
Allowing him to stay in your home is just another way that you enable him to
continue to drink. Let him suffer the consequences of HIS actions.

Much love,

Julie



"Kai" <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:401D9125.9A209EB4@ccm.tdsnet.com...
> I thank you all for your thoughts. I agree with your
> main idea, that being I need to take care of myself
> first...and that is what I have been doing for the past
> year. Perhaps I should have been clearer in expressing
> that point. I have made profound changes in my life,
> including therapy.
>
> I do not depend on my husband to define my existence,
> rather to enrich my life. Each member of a team must
> pull their own weight, yet function together to move
> forward. This was the point of my request. I understand
> that I am powerless over the disease, that is his fight
> alone. In fact, I had left our home, with a plan, and
> returned to pack a few final items and pick up my dog
> when this final entry into rehab occurred. He had already
> left, and checked himself in.
>
> I have continued on with my life, while he has been gone
> and life does go on - and I feel that while he is making
> an honest and serious attempt to improve his (and our)
> life together - I wish to do the same.
>
> My eyes are unfortunately wide open as to the risks and
> hazards ahead.. I have lived them before. But, I will
> state that he has NEVER before approached the problem
> with such seriousness and courage.
>
> As I said before, I am changed - hopefully for the
> better, and have no desire whatsoever to return to the
> way things were. He was NEVER abusive towards me, in the
> classic sense. It was witnessing self-abuse that was torturing
> me. I made no excuses, and told no lies to protect him.
> My friends and family were fully aware of what was going on
> and I had their full support. I was never isolated.
>
> It took me a full year to prepare myself for the action I
> eventually took...and thank you Harry, for pointing that
> out. As they say before take off, make sure your mask is
> in place before trying to help others. I prepared for the
> worst, financially, physically and emotionally - while hoping
> for the best.
>
> Fortunately, this time around, our son is grown and on his
> own, and has been a rock for me. We have been married for
> 23 years, and retirement is a major challenge approaching
> us now.
>
> I did not wish to appear needy and pleading for answers for questions
> that obviously have no definitive answers, I was merely
> asking for a different perspective from uninvolved yet
> knowledgeable individuals. I never felt that honoring my vow to him to
> live in sickness and health made me a sick twisted person, as long
> as I did not succumb to sickness myself.
>
> I wish to be his partner in life, not his caretaker.
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Kai

[Kai]

Julie LaRue wrote:


>
I must point out though that you ignored my
> questions about having a Al-Anon sponsor and working the steps with her.
> You haven't given Al-Anon a chance to help you if you haven't done this and
> I would pray that you reconsider.

Julie,
Thank you for your comments. I did not ignore this suggestion, I wanted
to
give some specific thought to my reply. What I found at Al Anon was
simply
not helpful to me personally. I have read the big book, and am familiar
with
the steps and traditions. I understand that all groups have their own
personality,
of course, created by the individuals participating in that group.
and the groups available to me just were not a good fit. I am not by
nature
a secretive person, but I am a private one. The groups (there were 2)
that I
tried placed far to much emphasis on how horrible life was for my
taste. Reliving
the bad times over and over is just not helpful to me. I know that it
can be a cathartic
experience, but I have always preferred to look to the future, rather
than carrying
a sack full of sadness and heartbreak over my shoulder to dump out on a
table on
a regular basis to examine. Again, please understand that this is what
I found
available to me. I am sure that somewhere there is a better fit for me,
but I
have not found it as yet. In the meantime, I do have friends in similar
circumstances that I speak to on a regular basis. Also, while
alcoholism is
obviously a part of my life, it is not my entire life, and will never
become so.
This was not the case in the groups I found.


> Going to a therapist or counselor can be a great help, but nothing has
> helped me to learn how to live with alcoholism more than listening to the
> solutions given by people who have suffered as I have (AA, NA, and Al-Anon).
> Its much cheaper also.

Well, I could certainly get behind that! And, I agree that somewhere
there
is a good group for me. I have participated in the family programs at
the
rehab, and did find them helpful. In fact, the insights I gained there
are what
led me to post here, on my own. I hope that I am not intruding, but
could find
no comparable group on usenet for spouses. But, never say never.



> Why would you leave the safety and comfort of YOUR home because your HUSBAND
> is an alcoholic. He is the one who needs to leave if he is wishes to drink.
> Allowing him to stay in your home is just another way that you enable him to
> continue to drink. Let him suffer the consequences of HIS actions.
>

This was purely selfish on my part. I had no desire to remain in "our"
home with
circumstances the way they were, and felt that a fresh start, free of
the baggage
of memories was the best way for me to go. Also, again selfishly, our
house is
"vintage" and requires constant maintenance and repairs - costly and
complicated.
I'm afraid that my talents never extended to home repair, try though I
do.
It was simply easier for me to comprehend starting over in a new place
of my
own choosing. Believe me, my leaving would not have simplified my
husbands life in
any way. It hasn't been for me, as I am currently living at home again
while he
has been away.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, your good wishes are much
appreciated and
all of your comments and suggestions have gone into the think tank.

Kai

[rosie]

> I hope that I am not intruding, but
> could find
> no comparable group on usenet for spouses. But, never say never.




there is ALT.RECOVERY.FAMILY+FRIENDS but it is not being used at
this time.

[Robert McGregor]

"Kai" <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:401DCA43.9D4C1D8D@ccm.tdsnet.com...
>I have participated in the family programs at
> the
> rehab, and did find them helpful. In fact, the insights I gained
there
> are what
> led me to post here, on my own. I hope that I am not intruding, but
> could find
> no comparable group on usenet for spouses. But, never say never.


A few years ago there were sometimes more family/friends than
alcoholics posting here. I'm guessing if you stick around and
contribute occasionally, you might find more peers here than you
imagined.

Bob

[Ron]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:55:47 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:

> I hope that I am not intruding, but could find no comparable group on
> usenet for spouses. But, never say never.

Seems like an appropriate enough forum; 'recovery' would include
spouses, and it's not 'recoverers' (is that a word?)..

I, for one, wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the story. Well, I
already do from my wife, but not in the same way as from an independant
party.

She was pretty mad at me tonight for skipping my regular Sunday AA
meeting to watch the Super Bowl. I'm feeling pretty good, all told, and
am very committed to dealing with my problems; but of course she can't
be inside my head. We have three small children, and she's very
dependant on me right now. I have to keep reminding myself about things
like that, or I take offence at her being upset, and then I get upset,
rinse and repeat..

Best.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie]

>I have to keep reminding myself about things
> like that, or I take offence at her being upset, and then I get
upset,
> rinse and repeat..
>

good reminder for all of us.......................imo, contributing
to our spouses worry is NOT good recovery.



--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:%jlTb.206937$xy6.1060912@attbi_s02...
> On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:55:47 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com>
wrote:
>
> > I hope that I am not intruding, but could find no comparable
group on
> > usenet for spouses. But, never say never.
>
> Seems like an appropriate enough forum; 'recovery' would include
> spouses, and it's not 'recoverers' (is that a word?)..
>
> I, for one, wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the story.
Well, I
> already do from my wife, but not in the same way as from an
independant
> party.
>
> She was pretty mad at me tonight for skipping my regular Sunday AA
> meeting to watch the Super Bowl. I'm feeling pretty good, all
told, and
> am very committed to dealing with my problems; but of course she
can't
> be inside my head. We have three small children, and she's very
> dependant on me right now. > Best.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:esrTb.24782$M81.8958@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
repeat..
> >
>
> good reminder for all of us.......................imo, contributing
> to our spouses worry is NOT good recovery.
>

Sure makes one wonder about the good Dr. Tom Barrett.

Does he even KNOW what a fucking crackpot liar he's married to? Does he
know what an embarassment you are to yourself and to the program of AA?
Does he know you spend hours every day spewing your nonsense all over
Usenet? Has it ever occurred to him that current, past, or prospective
patients of his might just Google his name and see all the tripe you post?

Does he even care?

God help his patients if he's a loose enough gun to condone your actions.

[rosie]

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:C%sTb.13718$tl5.4993@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .
>


good morning to you too sweetie!
why start your day with such a crappy attitude?

you never answered me..........are those pictures of you, your wife
and child?

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nvtTb.24810$M81.16708@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
> news:C%sTb.13718$tl5.4993@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .
> >
>
>
> good morning to you too sweetie!
> why start your day with such a crappy attitude?
>
> you never answered me..........are those pictures of you, your wife
> and child?
>
>
Just turning on the computer and seeing more drivel from you would be enough
to ruin anybody's day.

Why don't you ever answer direct questions instead of changing the subject?

[rosie]

> > "Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
> > news:C%sTb.13718$tl5.4993@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .

> >
> > you never answered me..........are those pictures of you, your
wife
> > and child?


enquiring minds, and all that!
:)

[Kai]

Robert McGregor wrote:
> I'm guessing if you stick around and
> contribute occasionally, you might find more peers here than you
> imagined.
>
> Bob

Thanks! I hope so, and I will.


Kai

[Kai]

Ron wrote:

>
> Seems like an appropriate enough forum; 'recovery' would include
> spouses, and it's not 'recoverers' (is that a word?)..
>
> I, for one, wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the story. Well, I
> already do from my wife, but not in the same way as from an independant
> party.

You are very kind, and this was also my hope in posting here. Ditto to
the info from my spouse. Sometimes an opinion from outside sinks in
better....


> She was pretty mad at me tonight for skipping my regular Sunday AA
> meeting to watch the Super Bowl. I'm feeling pretty good, all told, and
> am very committed to dealing with my problems; but of course she can't
> be inside my head. We have three small children, and she's very
> dependant on me right now. I have to keep reminding myself about things
> like that, or I take offence at her being upset, and then I get upset,
> rinse and repeat..
>
> Best.

Hey! I'll give it my first shot here! You're right about not always
(or ever, if truth be told) being in someone else's head. But from
my side, guessing at what was to come had become almost second nature,
and when meetings were skipped warning bells sounded. It takes time for
us to get used to not having to be on alert for trouble ahead. It's a
survival thing, don't you know. That's one of the things I need to come
to
grips with as well. I want to trust and have faith, but habits didn't
take
a short time to build, and it takes awhile to get the edge off the old
radar.
You're right, it can be a vicious circle, with no winners - thanks for
the reminder.

Kai

[Ron]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:33:12 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:

> I want to trust and have faith, but habits didn't take a short time to
> build, and it takes awhile to get the edge off the old radar.

Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the worst
aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building block.
That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No shortcuts
that I can see.

My wife is not going to put up with any more bullshit from me. That
sucks and makes me mad sometimes, but I think that overall it's a good
thing. I've heard a lot of people at meetings say things like "I'm
really grateful that <insert bad event here> happened, because it woke
me up." It takes some shaking up to clear the fog sometimes, it seems.
If my wife wasn't on my case about this - if I was on my own - it's a
virtual certainty I'd be drinking right now, rather than posting. By
making me choose, she has given me too much to lose.

But don't provide inner strength in the fashion of the referee's wife on
that Superbowl ad.. ;)

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie]

> Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the
worst
> aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building
block.
> That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No
shortcuts
> that I can see.
>


i remember when i realized that i had lost the trust of my husband
and my two older daughters, and yes, IT DID take some time for me to
gain that trust back!
but it DOES happen, so keeping doing "the next right thing", and
have faith!

:)

[Kai]

Ron wrote:

>
> But don't provide inner strength in the fashion of the referee's wife on
> that Superbowl ad.. ;)
>

(hangs head in shame) I didn't watch the Superbowl. Does that make me
un-American? Got a link for the ad so I know what to avoid? I usually
do like those ads
- "herding cats" from a few seasons back was a favorite of mine.
Twisted, I know.

Kai

[Ron]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:16:35 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:
> Ron wrote:

>> But don't provide inner strength in the fashion of the referee's wife on
>> that Superbowl ad.. ;)

> (hangs head in shame) I didn't watch the Superbowl. Does that make me
> un-American? Got a link for the ad so I know what to avoid? I usually
> do like those ads
> - "herding cats" from a few seasons back was a favorite of mine.
> Twisted, I know.

The first shot is of a referee standing poker-faced, while people are
screaming hysterically at him about a call he made. You can hear the
announcer's astonishment at his poise. They can't believe he can be so
unaffected.

The next shot shows him sitting expressionless on the couch at home with
his wife screaming at the top of her lungs right into his ear.

I have no idea what they were selling.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Kirk S]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_MCTb.10886$2h.7512@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the
> worst
> > aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building
> block.
> > That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No
> shortcuts
> > that I can see.
> >
>
>
> i remember when i realized that i had lost the trust of my husband
> and my two older daughters, and yes, IT DID take some time for me to
> gain that trust back!
> but it DOES happen, so keeping doing "the next right thing", and
> have faith!
>
> :)

Rosie,

My X lost respect and trust in me and it isn't always rebuildable. If the
foundation crumbles, the building cannot be repaired. It must be destroyed.
The more trust and respect she lost, the more I drank. I was afraid to be
honest about my feelings and as a result, the lies destroyed what we had.

No amount of personal inventory taking and attempting to make amends will
ever change that. She will not allow herself to trust me again and I
forgive her for that. Nor do I blame her. I would have trouble as well.
It is the one thing that I am having trouble forgiving myself for. <insert
appropriate self-criticism here>

I suppose we all have regrets, huh?

Kirk S. <16 days and the lessons keep comiing on strong>

P.S. I use a lot of AA jargon to describe what I believe is necessary for
good mental health. It is simply a way of wording that I remember. I've
spent a large part of my life blaming others for how I felt. No wonder I'm
full of anger and fear. I've believed that I have no control over my life.
It is no way to life, I can assure you...
>
>

[rosie]

i am sorry to read of your marital experience Kirk, but relieved to
read how you have dealt with it.........................you right of
course, there are many who's marriages are broken and cannot be
fixed.

and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
regret much anymore.
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_83.htm

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:x4XTb.19633$2h.11674@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:_MCTb.10886$2h.7512@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > > Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the
> > worst
> > > aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building
> > block.
> > > That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No
> > shortcuts
> > > that I can see.
> > >
> >
> >
> > i remember when i realized that i had lost the trust of my
husband
> > and my two older daughters, and yes, IT DID take some time for
me to
> > gain that trust back!
> > but it DOES happen, so keeping doing "the next right thing", and
> > have faith!
> >
> > :)
>
> Rosie,
>
> My X lost respect and trust in me and it isn't always rebuildable.
If the
> foundation crumbles, the building cannot be repaired. It must be
destroyed.
> The more trust and respect she lost, the more I drank. I was
afraid to be
> honest about my feelings and as a result, the lies destroyed what
we had.
>
> No amount of personal inventory taking and attempting to make
amends will
> ever change that. She will not allow herself to trust me again
and I
> forgive her for that. Nor do I blame her. I would have trouble
as well.
> It is the one thing that I am having trouble forgiving myself for.
<insert
> appropriate self-criticism here>
>
> I suppose we all have regrets, huh?
>
> Kirk S. <16 days and the lessons keep comiing on strong>
>
> P.S. I use a lot of AA jargon to describe what I believe is
necessary for
> good mental health. It is simply a way of wording that I
remember. I've
> spent a large part of my life blaming others for how I felt. No
wonder I'm
> full of anger and fear. I've believed that I have no control over
my life.
> It is no way to life, I can assure you...
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BQYTb.19817$2h.2276@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
> case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
> regret much anymore.

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.337271@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term
experience with
>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.
>i have however had to take several different meds as each once
finally
>"wears out" and i need to change.



"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.608669@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>

>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to
read
>about it!


"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WmE9b.246$eX1.98@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> i am quite frightened by the thought of taking another
drink...................

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[rosie]

robert,
what have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or THE
PROMISES?
--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hRZTb.19827$2h.4948@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> robert,
> what have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or THE
> PROMISES?

http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely
give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are
constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "

[rosie]

> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:hRZTb.19827$2h.4948@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > robert,
> > why have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or
THE
> > PROMISES?
>
> http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
> "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not
completely
> give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who
are
> constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "
>
>
>

this is what i posted:

> and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
> case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
> regret much anymore.
> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_83.htm


specifically:
If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will
be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new
freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to
shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we
will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we
will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of
uselessness and self-pity will disappear. We will lose interest in
selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will
slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will
intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not
do for ourselves.

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BS5Ub.29255$M81.10228@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:hRZTb.19827$2h.4948@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > robert,
> > > why have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or
> THE
> > > PROMISES?
> >
> > http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
> > "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not
> completely
> > give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who
> are
> > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "
> >
> >
> >
>
> this is what i posted:
>
> > and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
> > case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
> > regret much anymore.
> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_83.htm
>
>
> specifically:
> If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will
> be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new
> freedom and a new happiness.


Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity.

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

>We will not regret the past nor wish to
> shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we
> will know peace.

"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.608669@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>

>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to
read
>about it!

> We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not
> do for ourselves.
>
"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d_rZa.76641$7O4.1782289@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> chronic depression, DOES NOT lift.
> by definition: "it is always there".

[rosie]

>
> Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
> restore us to sanity.
>


this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
i have been restored.

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> >
> > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
> > restore us to sanity.
> >
>
>
> this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
> i have been restored.

Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

JB

[JB]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves
could
> > > restore us to sanity.
> > >
> >
> >
> > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
> > i have been restored.
>
> Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking
?
>
> JB
>
Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)

I meant to say:

"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their opinions, I,
for one, would be grateful.

JB

[Kirk S]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvr95s$p6o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves
> could
> > > > restore us to sanity.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
> > > i have been restored.
> >
> > Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking
> ?
> >
> > JB
> >
> Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)
>
> I meant to say:
>
> "Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

Yes, most definitely...

To me, being restored to sanity means that I will no longer drink as a means
of dealing with my disappointments, resentments, rejections, unrealized
expectations, etc.

To me, it means understanding the Serenity prayer and applying to my
everyday life. I cannot change others, I can change myself, being able to
identify what I am up to comes from being honest and facing the things that
I am afraid of.

Today, I helped move some of my X's things out of my house. We had a long
discussion about our feelings and choices. She doesn't understand how I
could choose to drink over discussing problems. If choosing the short term
good feeling of being drunk over the connection with another human being
isn't insanity, please give me a definition of what that choice is.

I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It sucks!

Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>
>
> If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their opinions, I,
> for one, would be grateful.
>
> JB
>
>

[rosie]

>
> I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
sucks!
>
> Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>


kirk,
it is FEBRUARY, which is the second month of the year, and "around
these parts" a lot of meetings try to focus on the second step, and
there has been, as usual, much discussion about "the insanity" that
is referred to in that step.

this morning, after the funeral of a fellow alcoholic, who returned
to drinking, and died, the insanity seemed more understandable.
at one time, i felt that this fellow "came to believe", put the plug
in the jug, but did not change much else.
his life remained unmanageable and eventually living that insane
life he returned to drinking.

i knew in my early recovery, that i had to stop the behaviors that
prompted my need for "relief".................or i would drink again
too.

living in:
mad, sad, afraid, ashamed and hurt, is an example of the insanity
imo.....................

kirk, does that make sense to you at all?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aJbUb.20385$2h.2613@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvr95s$p6o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than
ourselves
> > could
> > > > > restore us to sanity.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.

> > > > i have been restored.
> > >
> > > Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
drinking
> > ?
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)If choosing the
short term
> good feeling of being drunk over the connection with another human
being
> isn't insanity, please give me a definition of what that choice
is.
>
> I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
sucks!
>
> Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>

> >
> > I meant to say:
> >
> > "Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
drinking ?
>
> Yes, most definitely...
>
> To me, being restored to sanity means that I will no longer drink
as a means
> of dealing with my disappointments, resentments, rejections,
unrealized
> expectations, etc.
>
> To me, it means understanding the Serenity prayer and applying to
my
> everyday life. I cannot change others, I can change myself, being
able to
> identify what I am up to comes from being honest and facing the
things that
> I am afraid of.
>
> Today, I helped move some of my X's things out of my house. We
had a long
> discussion about our feelings and choices. She doesn't understand
how I
> could choose to drink over discussing problems. > >
> > If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their
opinions, I,
> > for one, would be grateful.
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TreUb.26411$sd.8431@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i knew in my early recovery, that i had to stop the behaviors that
> prompted my need for "relief".................or i would drink again
> too.
>
> living in:
> mad, sad, afraid, ashamed and hurt, is an example of the insanity
> imo.....................


From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ZPSl5.19140$E05.340458@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to
>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that dosage?
>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[Kirk S]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TreUb.26411$sd.8431@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
> sucks!
> >
> > Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>
>
>
> kirk,
> it is FEBRUARY, which is the second month of the year, and "around
> these parts" a lot of meetings try to focus on the second step, and
> there has been, as usual, much discussion about "the insanity" that
> is referred to in that step.

I attempted to describe my own insanity. Choices that, to any normal
person, would probably seen pretty insane.

>
> this morning, after the funeral of a fellow alcoholic, who returned
> to drinking, and died, the insanity seemed more understandable.
> at one time, i felt that this fellow "came to believe", put the plug
> in the jug, but did not change much else.

I am sorry for the loss of someone you knew. Evidently, he didn't believe
it applied to him or simply didn't believe he needed to change.

> his life remained unmanageable and eventually living that insane
> life he returned to drinking.
>
> i knew in my early recovery, that i had to stop the behaviors that
> prompted my need for "relief".................or i would drink again
> too.

To me, that means that "I" am the problem, the alcohol is simply a symptom.
This means that I must change.

>
> living in:
> mad, sad, afraid, ashamed and hurt, is an example of the insanity
> imo.....................
>
> kirk, does that make sense to you at all?

My point is that I must not try to escape my feelings or avoid them. I am
not living in them or holding onto them. I feel sad and embrace the feeling
instead of trying to escape it. This means that I accept how I feel and am
willing to experience it. It means that I will find a positive behavior to
deal with it. Writing down how I feel, is very positive for me. Normally,
I would just sit and let it eat at me. This is choosing a different
behavior that allows me to move past it. Is it really "living in" something
to allow it to happen? If your dog/cat dies and you are sad, isn't this
just a normal reaction? If I choose to drink to avoid the feeling, all I do
is postpone the inevitable and make it worse. If I were to wallow in a sea
of self-pity, that would be one thing. To recognize and be aware of how my
choices directly brought me to where I am, is not IMO, living in insanity.
To expect the same choices to have a different outcome, is...

Ok... I'm done now... I feel much better... The sadness has passed.

Kirk S.

P.S. Is this really a good place for political name calling?

>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
> reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
> was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
> Congress to censure President Bush now at:
> http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g
>
>
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:aJbUb.20385$2h.2613@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bvr95s$p6o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > >
> > > > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than
> ourselves
> > > could
> > > > > > restore us to sanity.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
>
> > > > > i have been restored.
> > > >
> > > > Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
> drinking
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > JB
> > > >
> > > Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)If choosing the
> short term
> > good feeling of being drunk over the connection with another human
> being
> > isn't insanity, please give me a definition of what that choice
> is.
> >
> > I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
> sucks!
> >
> > Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>
>
> > >
> > > I meant to say:
> > >
> > > "Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
> drinking ?
> >
> > Yes, most definitely...
> >
> > To me, being restored to sanity means that I will no longer drink
> as a means
> > of dealing with my disappointments, resentments, rejections,
> unrealized
> > expectations, etc.
> >
> > To me, it means understanding the Serenity prayer and applying to
> my
> > everyday life. I cannot change others, I can change myself, being
> able to
> > identify what I am up to comes from being honest and facing the
> things that
> > I am afraid of.
> >
> > Today, I helped move some of my X's things out of my house. We
> had a long
> > discussion about our feelings and choices. She doesn't understand
> how I
> > could choose to drink over discussing problems. > >
> > > If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their
> opinions, I,
> > > for one, would be grateful.
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[rosie]

>
> To me, that means that "I" am the problem, the alcohol is simply a
symptom.
> This means that I must change.
>


that is what it means to me too. i must continue my "new positive
behaviors" or i will return to my "old negative solutions"



>
> My point is that I must not try to escape my feelings or avoid
them.

good point and wise advise.



> I am not living in them or holding onto them.

imo, that is good!



> I feel sad and embrace the feeling instead of trying to escape it.
This means that I accept how I feel and am
> willing to experience it. It means that I will find a positive
behavior to
> deal with it.

imo, nice definition of good recovery!




>................. To recognize and be aware of how my
> choices directly brought me to where I am, is not IMO, living in
insanity.
> To expect the same choices to have a different outcome, is...

AMEN, AND WELL SAID!


>
> Ok... I'm done now... I feel much better... The sadness has
passed.
>
> Kirk S.

GOOD!




>
> P.S. Is this really a good place for political name calling?
>
> >
> >
name calling?
i believe that i do more than "call names"
helping to spread the word, to start change is very important to my
life, and who i am.

[Ron]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:25:55 GMT, Kirk S <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com>
wrote:

> I am sorry for the loss of someone you knew. Evidently, he didn't believe
> it applied to him or simply didn't believe he needed to change.

Hmm. No need to change. "Need to change *if*..." e.g. need to change
if I don't want to hurt myself or others, is what it basically comes
down to. I don't *need* to stop drinking, but I have to make choices.
That's what's driving me forward right now. I wish I could say I had
better motivations, but that's not where I'm at.

Ahh, screw it. Enough equivocating about step one already. I'm a
frickin' drunk. Time to beat the crap out of step two. I have to look
it up, wait a second...

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity.

Oy. Step two sucks.

Talking about the death of someone's friend, and it turns into me, me,
me.. Sorry.

At this rate, a step every few months, I'll be sober for several years
before I finish. Maybe there should be 1200 steps.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:34:27 GMT, " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>it is FEBRUARY, which is the second month of the year, and "around
>these parts" a lot of meetings try to focus on the second step, and
>there has been, as usual, much discussion about "the insanity" that
>is referred to in that step.

Since when did Step 2 mention "insanity"?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:22 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

Absolutely. It's referring to the insanity outlined in the second
part of Step 1, the mental obsession with booze and inability to
handle life sober.

If "sanity" in this context is defined by simply not drinking, there
would be only 3 Steps: 1. admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2.
came to believe that quitting drinking would solve all our problems.
3. made a decision to quit drinking.

There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
life. And many people can do just this.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9410c8599a2081f859ed0fa4aba953ee@news.teranew s.com...
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:22 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?
>
> Absolutely. It's referring to the insanity outlined in the second
> part of Step 1, the mental obsession with booze and inability to
> handle life sober.
>
> If "sanity" in this context is defined by simply not drinking, there
> would be only 3 Steps: 1. admitted we were powerless over alcohol.
2.
> came to believe that quitting drinking would solve all our problems.
> 3. made a decision to quit drinking.
>
> There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> life. And many people can do just this.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Blue,

I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has given
me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace of
mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I know
that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for example,
whenever life gets me down.

I would welcome yours and others' comments.

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvuv6e$9q6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has
given
> me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
> restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace
of
> mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I know
> that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
> example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
> state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for example,
> whenever life gets me down.
>
> I would welcome yours and others' comments.
>
> JB
>

Given that peace of mind can represent stupidity, apathy, and
complacency, why spend time analysing what you have not experienced,
at the expense of time that could be spent utilising what you could
experience?

Bob

[Ron]

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:53:15 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

> There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> life. And many people can do just this.

I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my best
opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what? And if
it is true that all this other stuff *is* necessary, whether I believe
it or not, then if I *don't* do these things, I'm going to be in a bad
place.

I really don't know if I can do this shit right, but I'm afraid of what
could happen if I don't do it right. Does this sound familiar to anyone
with some long term success? It would be encouraging to hear someone
say 'yes'. My primary exposure to recovery has been through AA, and I
have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20 years
sober." I find that discouraging. Of course, those people probably
don't go to AA meetings. I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy the
meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say I
won't do it, but I keep recoiling.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Christine]

Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of sobriety there.
minimal AA bashing, which I like. They have an email list as well as a chat
.... I like the chat. It helps me. I use it to supplement my meetings, this
group, and everything I'm reading ...

>I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
>admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my best
>opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what?

Right on. I'm not taking any chances. give it all to me, right now, I'll sort
it all out later.

Oh yeah, off to bed ;)

[Julie LaRue]

The "insanity" mentioned in the second step concerns the idea that WE could
EVER control our drinking
AND OUR thoughts that we could continue drinkning and expect differant
results than the one we were getting.
PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND SPRITURAL DEATH.
It has nothing to do with your state of mind (peace, frastration, hatred,
love) these are dealt with in later steps.
JULIE


"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvv050$10npkr$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvuv6e$9q6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has
> given
> > me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
> > restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace
> of
> > mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I know
> > that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
> > example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
> > state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for example,
> > whenever life gets me down.
> >
> > I would welcome yours and others' comments.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> Given that peace of mind can represent stupidity, apathy, and
> complacency, why spend time analysing what you have not experienced,
> at the expense of time that could be spent utilising what you could
> experience?
>
> Bob
>
>

[Julie LaRue]

CANT ALL OF YOU KEEP THIS SIMPLE!! Please give up all the mental
masterbation.
If this, and if that, is a waste of your energy. Get a sponsor, go to
meeting, work the frigging steps, and do some 12 step calls like Bob and
Bill did.
Julie.


"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9410c8599a2081f859ed0fa4aba953ee@news.teranew s.com...
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:22 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?
>
> Absolutely. It's referring to the insanity outlined in the second
> part of Step 1, the mental obsession with booze and inability to
> handle life sober.
>
> If "sanity" in this context is defined by simply not drinking, there
> would be only 3 Steps: 1. admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2.
> came to believe that quitting drinking would solve all our problems.
> 3. made a decision to quit drinking.
>
> There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> life. And many people can do just this.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvv050$10npkr$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvuv6e$9q6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has
> given
> > me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
> > restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace
> of
> > mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I
know
> > that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
> > example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
> > state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for
example,
> > whenever life gets me down.
> >
> > I would welcome yours and others' comments.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> Given that peace of mind can represent stupidity, apathy, and
> complacency, why spend time analysing what you have not experienced,
> at the expense of time that could be spent utilising what you could
> experience?
>
> Bob
>
Hi,

Tonight, thinking and writing about issues that I consider relevant
to my efforts to deepen my understanding of myself and also AA's
programme and also quietly reflecting on how far I've come since June
2003 when I started my journey in recovery, has helped me find peace
of mind. It disappeared earlier today, when I took my husband to an
out-patient's appointment during which his blood gases were checked.
We were told that he has go into hospital to see if they can do
anything to help him breathe more easily and in so doing reduce the
risk of him having a heart attack. He goes in on Monday with hopes
that all will be sorted by Friday. The news raised in me fears about
what is to come. As I'm writing this, those fears are under control.

All the best

JB.

[JB]

"Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vfFUb.12784$GO6.12521@newsread3.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> The "insanity" mentioned in the second step concerns the idea that
WE could
> EVER control our drinking
> AND OUR thoughts that we could continue drinkning and expect
differant
> results than the one we were getting.
> PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND SPRITURAL DEATH.
> It has nothing to do with your state of mind (peace, frastration,
hatred,
> love) these are dealt with in later steps.
> JULIE

Dear Julie,

In order to get your point across to me, there is no need to shout :^)

I think it possible that my views on this - and other issues - may
change over time. .

Thanks.

JB

..

[JB]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvv84s$52u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vfFUb.12784$GO6.12521@newsread3.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> > The "insanity" mentioned in the second step concerns the idea that
> WE could
> > EVER control our drinking
> > AND OUR thoughts that we could continue drinkning and expect
> differant
> > results than the one we were getting.
> > PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND SPRITURAL DEATH.
> > It has nothing to do with your state of mind (peace, frastration,
> hatred,
> > love) these are dealt with in later steps.
> > JULIE
>
> Dear Julie,
>
> In order to get your point across to me, there is no need to shout
:^)
>
> I think it possible that my views on this - and other issues - may
> change over time. .
>
> Thanks.
>
> JB

LOL. I didn't mean what is impled above. I meant to say that my
views on "sanity" may change over time.

JB
> .
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:b6FUb.227634$I06.2529278@attbi_s01...
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:53:15 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> > sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> > life. And many people can do just this.
>
> I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
> admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my
best
> opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what? And
if
> it is true that all this other stuff *is* necessary, whether I
believe
> it or not, then if I *don't* do these things, I'm going to be in a
bad
> place.
>
> I really don't know if I can do this shit right, but I'm afraid of
what
> could happen if I don't do it right. Does this sound familiar to
anyone
> with some long term success? It would be encouraging to hear
someone
> say 'yes'. My primary exposure to recovery has been through AA, and
I
> have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20
years
> sober." I find that discouraging. Of course, those people probably
> don't go to AA meetings. I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy
the
> meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say I
> won't do it, but I keep recoiling.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

Did not take me long at all to appreciate that regardless of whatever
had happened each day, I had proven myself able to live without
alcohol, one day at a time. What I did not know was how well prepared
I was for the long haul. Even bought a dictionary to ensure I did not
miss out on a critical aspect of long term recovery simply because I
had misunderstood a word, or two.

One of my first problems was the difference between what I was reading
in the AA Big Book, and contradictory gospels I was being subjected to
at AA meetings. I chose to stick with the least obvious
contradictions, the book.

Had lots of problems with the content of that book too, but, as I have
detailed here previously, I managed to take those steps and find the
long term recovery from active alcoholism I had once believed
impossible for types such as me.

With benefit of a decade plus of hindsight, I have discarded much of
what I initially took to be imperatives, as those who "have a life"
are apt to do. If I went to more lengths than necessary, I don't give
a stuff, 'cos at least, regardless of the fear exemplified in rosie's
"I will never be recovered" and endemic in AA, I "got it," and
eventually recovered.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:QiFUb.12795$GO6.11702@newsread3.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> CANT ALL OF YOU KEEP THIS SIMPLE!! Please give up all the mental
> masterbation.
> If this, and if that, is a waste of your energy. Get a sponsor, go
to
> meeting, work the frigging steps, and do some 12 step calls like Bob
and
> Bill did.
> Julie.

"I found that I had to exert every ounce of will and action to cut off
these faulty emotional dependencies upon people, upon AA, indeed, upon
any set of circumstances whatsoever. Then only could I be free" -
Bill Wilson http://www.aagrapevine.org/archive/billw/NextFrontier.html

[rosie]

> With benefit of a decade plus of hindsight, I have discarded much
of
> what I initially took to be imperatives, as those who "have a
life"
> are apt to do.

implying that those who work the program AS SUGGESTED in the BIG
BOOK don't have a life?
why are those folks such a threat to you?
do you think HP cares how yours or my sobriety and serenity are
achieved?

imo, what you have robert, is a program that YOU taught
YOURSELF........................YOUR interpretation! in other
words, one alcoholic talking to himself!

you obviously spent time with the verbage in the book, and do
things like trip over the words RECOVERY and RECOVERED and continue
with your mental masturbation over it...........................

that's ok, if that masturbation is some "release" for you and if you
are happy, joyous and free than i am happy for you.



> the fear exemplified in rosie's
> "I will never be recovered" and endemic in AA, I "got it," and
> eventually recovered.
>
> Bob
>
>
>

another phrase you love to dissect.......................i was
taught, and accepted that my recovery is a daily reprieve.
i have NO FEAR if i am doing "the next right thing" my HP's will.
(on a daily basis) and for this, i use the aid of a sponsor.

i have what is called a HEALTHY FEAR of relapse, i see it happen to
others, and KNOW that i am not exempt, if i stop doing WHAT WORKS
FOR ME.
i am comfortable with this!

maybe when you've been around a little longer you will
understand..................KEEP COMING BACK HON!

and do what works for you now robert........................

[rosie]

>.................. My primary exposure to recovery has been
through AA, and I
> have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20
years
> sober."


LOL!
i'm quite sure you won't..................unless its someone who
just came back from a relapse, and he's sharing what he did wrong.
that happens all the time!


> I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy the
> meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say
I
> won't do it, but I keep recoiling.


ron,
i recoiled from a lot of suggestions, but i managed to do them
anyway, because "where i came from" was so much worse than any
changes, i was asked to make.
rosie

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nCMUb.27195$2h.12132@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> > With benefit of a decade plus of hindsight, I have discarded much
> of
> > what I initially took to be imperatives, as those who "have a
> life"
> > are apt to do.
>
> implying that those who work the program AS SUGGESTED in the BIG
> BOOK don't have a life?

Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might rattle
your chains though.


> why are those folks such a threat to you?

Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me? Projecting your
fear I suppose.

> do you think HP cares how yours or my sobriety and serenity are
> achieved?

Precisely who, other than another of your delusions, is HP?

>
> imo, what you have robert, is a program that YOU taught
> YOURSELF........................YOUR interpretation! in other
> words, one alcoholic talking to himself!

I talked to countless alcoholics, took responsibility for my own
recovery, and am proud of that achievemnt.


>
> you obviously spent time with the verbage in the book, and do
> things like trip over the words RECOVERY and RECOVERED and continue
> with your mental masturbation over it...........................

hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't it:)

>
> that's ok, if that masturbation is some "release" for you and if you
> are happy, joyous and free than i am happy for you.

Who is masturbating here?

>
>
>
> > the fear exemplified in rosie's
> > "I will never be recovered" and endemic in AA, I "got it," and
> > eventually recovered.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
>
> another phrase you love to dissect.......................i was
> taught, and accepted that my recovery is a daily reprieve.

You are doing the dissecting!


> i have NO FEAR if i am doing "the next right thing" my HP's will.
> (on a daily basis) and for this, i use the aid of a sponsor.
> i have what is called a HEALTHY FEAR of relapse, i see it happen to
> others, and KNOW that i am not exempt, if i stop doing WHAT WORKS
> FOR ME.
> i am comfortable with this!


Of course you have to pretend you are comfortable with that endemic
fear, and your associated pills.

>
> maybe when you've been around a little longer you will
> understand..................KEEP COMING BACK HON!

Obviously your post indicates I understand more than you can cope
with.


>
> and do what works for you now robert........................


It's druggies like you that are regularly precluded from that freedom.

Bob

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ZPSl5.19140$E05.340458@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to
>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that dosage?
>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[rosie]

"Christine" <ctbean3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040206000115.22865.00001469@mb-m04.aol.com...
> Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of sobriety
there.
> minimal AA bashing, which I like.


christine,
are you finding LIFERING to be a better fit for you than AA was?

[rosie]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c006hh$uenc5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might
rattle
> your chains though.
>
>


rattle my chains?
NOPE!
as i indicated in my post, i expect nothing from you.



> > why are those folks such a threat to you?
>
> Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me?

your behavior!
google yourself robert.......................its self explanatory.






>........................ am proud of that achievemnt.


you should be proud of your sobriety, IF it works for you.




>

>
> hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't
it:)
>

again robert, NOPE!
you don't have the power to "piss me off" unless i give it to you.


KEEP COMING BACK!
rosie

[Kirk S]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e%NUb.27247$2h.19935@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c006hh$uenc5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might
> rattle
> > your chains though.
> >
> >
>
>
> rattle my chains?
> NOPE!
> as i indicated in my post, i expect nothing from you.
>
>
>
> > > why are those folks such a threat to you?
> >
> > Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me?
>
> your behavior!
> google yourself robert.......................its self explanatory.
>
>

How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There seems to be a lot
of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get out. The
punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.

I humbly offer my services as referee...

Kirk S.
>
>
>
>
> >........................ am proud of that achievemnt.
>
>
> you should be proud of your sobriety, IF it works for you.
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
> > hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't
> it:)
> >
>
> again robert, NOPE!
> you don't have the power to "piss me off" unless i give it to you.
>
>
> KEEP COMING BACK!
> rosie
>
>
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e%NUb.27247$2h.19935@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c006hh$uenc5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might
> rattle
> > your chains though.


> rattle my chains?
> NOPE!
> as i indicated in my post, i expect nothing from you.


Expecting nothing from me has no bearing at all on the evidence that
your chains were rattled.

> > > why are those folks such a threat to you?
> >
> > Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me?
>
> your behavior!
> google yourself robert.......................its self explanatory.

My behavior? I answered a request here, as I often do. Once again your
proclamation is out of context.

> >........................ am proud of that achievemnt.
>
>
> you should be proud of your sobriety, IF it works for you.

Once again your proclamation is out of context. I did the work and
apparantly much to your dismay, took the suggested steps. Sobriety is
the result

> >
> > hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't
> it:)
> >
>
> again robert, NOPE!
> you don't have the power to "piss me off" unless i give it to you.

Once again your proclamation is out of context. It's obviously the
differences that piss you off, as distinct from any power of mine.

Since you arrived here, you have barely proved capable of rudimentary
communication, mixed in with prolific proclamation. Nothing has
changed.

Bob

Bob

[rosie]

> How about a sponsored boxing match between you two?




kirk,
did you ever hear this expression?



Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
pig.

- Mark Twain




well, ROBERT is my own personal pig!

[Robert McGregor]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MgOUb.56749$sd.25062@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There seems to
be a lot
> of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get out.
The
> punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.
>
> I humbly offer my services as referee...
>

Kirk, the punches started long before you arrived here, and given
rosie came here pretending superiority to this group, they will
probably continue long after I've gone.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8BOUb.27273$2h.12434@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two?
>
>
>
>
> kirk,
> did you ever hear this expression?
>
>
>
> Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
> pig.
>
> - Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> well, ROBERT is my own personal pig!
>
From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>

Message-ID: <%5RSa.31831$6a3.482926@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

************************************************** *********
Twenty-Four Hours A Day

A.A. Thought For The Day

If we feel the need of saying something to put another member
on the
right track, we should try to say it with understanding and
sympathy, not with a critical attitude. We should keep
everything
out in the open and aboveboard. The A.A. program is wonderful,
but
we must really follow it. We must all pull together or we'll
all be
sunk. We enjoy the privilege of being associated with A.A.
and we
are entitled to all its benefits. But gossip and criticism are
not
tolerance, and tolerance is an A.A. principle that is
absolutely
necessary to group unity. Am I truly tolerant of all my
group's
members?

[rosie]

that's great christine!


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Christine" <ctbean3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040206110042.28446.00001439@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >> Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of
sobriety
> >there.
> >> minimal AA bashing, which I like.
> >
> >
> >christine,
> >are you finding LIFERING to be a better fit for you than AA was?
>
> Was? Perhaps you mean "is" ... no, Rosie, it's not a "better"
fit, it's a
> complementary fit. Like I said in my post, I use it to supplement
my
> membership in AA ... just like I use this newsgroup. The more
sober people I
> can surround myself with, the better, IMO. There are many great
people there
> ... like I said, I like the chat. With my crazy work schedule,
sometimes it is
> hard to get in contact with people, and the instant gratification
can be
> lacking here, so I hop over there and get some nice, sober
"conversation".
>
> -Christine

[Christine]

>> Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of sobriety
>there.
>> minimal AA bashing, which I like.
>
>
>christine,
>are you finding LIFERING to be a better fit for you than AA was?

Was? Perhaps you mean "is" ... no, Rosie, it's not a "better" fit, it's a
complementary fit. Like I said in my post, I use it to supplement my
membership in AA ... just like I use this newsgroup. The more sober people I
can surround myself with, the better, IMO. There are many great people there
.... like I said, I like the chat. With my crazy work schedule, sometimes it is
hard to get in contact with people, and the instant gratification can be
lacking here, so I hop over there and get some nice, sober "conversation".

-Christine

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8BOUb.27273$2h.12434@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two?
>
> kirk,
> did you ever hear this expression?
>
> Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
> pig.
>
> - Mark Twain

> well, ROBERT is my own personal pig!

Extract from ROSIE (tbarrett@ameritech.net) 16th April 1998

" don't call people names! i try not to be a "sewer mouth"! i try
to treat others well, and i don't fit in with you or your
kind............thats ok with me, always has been, because i would
rather not be associated with folks like you.
THIS IS A SUPPORT GROUP, AND SUPPORT STARTS WITH KINDNESS !
IN MY OPINION !
ROSIE
---------

Extract from ROSIE (tbarrett@ameritech.net) 18th April 1998

"i would not stoop so low as to call people names, and deliberately
try to hurt their feelings!
READ AND POST,
ROSIE
SUPPORT GROUPS, SHOULD BE SUPPORTIVE !!!!!

----------

Extract from rosie read and post (readandpost@yahoo.com) 23rd Nov
2003

"detox IS the first step in being sober, and sometimes PROFESSIONAL
HELP with detox is very necessary. i believe that if this little
group of malcontents would agree to be detoxed, this might be a more
productive newsgroup, with a whole lot less name calling.(good luck
getting them to hand over their sleeping pills and their booze!)

------

Extract from: rosie read and post (readandpost@yahoo.com) 5th Dec 2003

" I communicate with many, many wonderful recovering (alcohol, drugs,
sugar, nicotine)folks everyday......................
those few of you who continue to look for arguments, call names, and
attempt to sabotage others, really do not have ANYTHING i would
call recovery. is that judgmental? yes, i know that it is, and i feel
no guilt about it!"

-------

[Kirk S]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c00d6o$117pgl$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:MgOUb.56749$sd.25062@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There seems to
> be a lot
> > of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get out.
> The
> > punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.
> >
> > I humbly offer my services as referee...
> >
>
> Kirk, the punches started long before you arrived here, and given
> rosie came here pretending superiority to this group, they will
> probably continue long after I've gone.
>
> Bob
>
>
Well, as long as it is good natured and no one gets hurt... It just seems
counter productive to resort to name calling, etc. when the purpose is to
provide a "safe haven" for people that want to share their views and
experiences.

Depending upon my mood, I can take a lot of abuse or have a single statement
set me off. I take exception to the political statement used as a signature
and feel this is not the place to be "Bush-bashing".

I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage in my head.

Thanks to all and have a great weekend.

Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>
>

[Moonraker]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zw7Vb.42537$M81.23798@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> Well, as long as it is good natured and no one gets hurt... It just seems
> counter productive to resort to name calling, etc. when the purpose is to
> provide a "safe haven" for people that want to share their views and
> experiences.

When Jesus took a whip and chased the money changers out of the temple, was
"that" counter-productive? When lying trolls like Rosemary Barrett continue
to pollute newsgroups, there will be those who are gonna "whup" her.

>
> Depending upon my mood, I can take a lot of abuse or have a single
statement
> set me off. I take exception to the political statement used as a
signature
> and feel this is not the place to be "Bush-bashing".

If it were "only" her signature.

>
> I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage in my
head.

let 'er rip. Tis OK.

>
> Thanks to all and have a great weekend.
>
> Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>
> >
>
>

[rosie]

kirk,
you don't want to see a boxing match between robert and
i..................with our age difference, it just wouldn't be
fair, i don't want to hurt him!
;)

roberts comment about me coming in here with a SUPERIOR ATTITUDE is
just another one of his delusions, that he insists on sharing, over
and over...................

his problem is, he can't deal with a women who doesn't back down,
has more sober time, and isn't impressed with him!
he follows me around like a puppy!


>
> I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage
in my head.
>
> Thanks to all and have a great weekend.
>
> Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>


i hope the rest of your week, goes a little easier for you and
CONGRATS on your twenty days!




--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zw7Vb.42537$M81.23798@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c00d6o$117pgl$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:MgOUb.56749$sd.25062@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There
seems to
> > be a lot
> > > of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get
out.
> > The
> > > punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.
> > >
> > > I humbly offer my services as referee...
> > >
> >
> > Kirk, the punches started long before you arrived here, and
given
> > rosie came here pretending superiority to this group, they will
> > probably continue long after I've gone.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> Well, as long as it is good natured and no one gets hurt... It
just seems
> counter productive to resort to name calling, etc. when the
purpose is to
> provide a "safe haven" for people that want to share their views
and
> experiences.
>
> Depending upon my mood, I can take a lot of abuse or have a single
statement
> set me off. I take exception to the political statement used as a
signature
> and feel this is not the place to be "Bush-bashing".
>
> I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage
in my head.
>
> Thanks to all and have a great weekend.
>
> Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>
> >
>
>

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2J8Vb.29195$2h.16183@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> kirk,
> you don't want to see a boxing match between robert and
> i..................with our age difference, it just wouldn't be
> fair, i don't want to hurt him!
> ;)
>
> roberts comment about me coming in here with a SUPERIOR ATTITUDE is
> just another one of his delusions, that he insists on sharing, over
> and over...................
>
his problem is, he can't deal with a women who doesn't back down,
has more sober time, and isn't impressed with him!
he follows me around like a puppy!


FWIW, I think it likely that some of those who pass judgement on an
alcoholic's recovery may not consider the length of their sobriety to
be anywhere near as important as the way the alcoholic behaves when
not drinking. I think this more likely to be the case in respect of
judgements passed on AAers who claim to have worked its programme than
those passed on non-AAers.

Also FWIW, I do not think that AA's programme was intended to
encourage either badmouthing or making false statements about anyone.

If anything I've said suggests to anyone wrong thinking, maybe, I'll
be shown my mistakes and learn from them :^)

JB

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2J8Vb.29195$2h.16183@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> kirk,
> you don't want to see a boxing match between robert and
> i..................with our age difference, it just wouldn't be
> fair, i don't want to hurt him!
> ;)

Get a life!

>
> roberts comment about me coming in here with a SUPERIOR ATTITUDE is
> just another one of his delusions, that he insists on sharing, over
> and over...................

Evidence supporting your Usenet proclamations is conspicuous only by
its absence.

>
> his problem is, he can't deal with a women who doesn't back down,

Oh, you're still projecting then, unable to deal with folk here who
wont back down.

> has more sober time,

Were I to apply your own criteria of "sobriety," I have much more
sober time than you. Nevertheless, imo, referring to anything longer
than a decade of sobriety here is superfluous. Not surprisingly
though, "Sober Time" is presented as somehow prestigious, by those who
on closer inspection, don't "have a life."

>and isn't impressed with him!

As if I need endorsement from you.

> he follows me around like a puppy!

Excepting that I was posting here long before you arrived.

Bob.

>
>
"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:K5asa.61483$YE2.1113028@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> rosie
> (8-26-82 )
> i post my sobriety date, to let you know, that i have been around
these
tables for a long, long time, and i have heard
> folks like you make these judgments, over and over.
> you do US a big disservice!
>
"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHIS.com> wrote in message

<MU0Fa.72106$jT4.1515242@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

> i stay in ARAA (with an active killfile) to share my experience,
strength
and hope and to remind those who come, that
> these few folks ARE NOT a sample of the loving understanding, that
can be
found in AA and other support groups!

"rosie read and post" <readandpostTAKEOUT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SLyob.91348$832.80470@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> awwwwwwwwwww, but there so easy!

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 02:44:37 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has given
>me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
>restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace of
>mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity.

That's not what it means in this context. I often had peace of mind
whilst drinking.

In its simplest context here, "insanity" refers to the thinking that
precedes the first drink. If you're not meeting people who talk of
being restored to sanity, you might want to try some different
meetings. By their nature, meetings with a high proportion of
newcomers or slippers will have relatively little discussion of
sanity.

Serenity is a state of mind that comes as a result of taking certain
actions. It is rarely a permanent condition. Even those who've been
declared as saints were not permanently serene.

Sanity does not necessarily mean happiness either. Some of the
happiest people will not be released from mental institutions until
they stop laughing.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 05:08:00 GMT, "Julie LaRue"
<Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:

>CANT ALL OF YOU KEEP THIS SIMPLE!! Please give up all the mental
>masterbation.

Quit whenever you like.

>If this, and if that, is a waste of your energy. Get a sponsor, go to
>meeting, work the frigging steps, and do some 12 step calls like Bob and
>Bill did.

I did all the things you suggest. I even managed to understand Step
2, which doesn't mention "insanity" at all.

--
Blue Moon

[Julie LaRue]

The people who wrote the book said, "Half Measures Availed us NOTHING." I
had no long term sobriety until I started to do all that AA suggested. Get
a sponsor and work the steps with HIM.
Julie

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:b6FUb.227634$I06.2529278@attbi_s01...
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:53:15 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> > sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> > life. And many people can do just this.
>
> I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
> admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my best
> opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what? And if
> it is true that all this other stuff *is* necessary, whether I believe
> it or not, then if I *don't* do these things, I'm going to be in a bad
> place.
>
> I really don't know if I can do this shit right, but I'm afraid of what
> could happen if I don't do it right. Does this sound familiar to anyone
> with some long term success? It would be encouraging to hear someone
> say 'yes'. My primary exposure to recovery has been through AA, and I
> have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20 years
> sober." I find that discouraging. Of course, those people probably
> don't go to AA meetings. I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy the
> meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say I
> won't do it, but I keep recoiling.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:40:56 GMT, Julie LaRue <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:

> The people who wrote the book said, "Half Measures Availed us
> NOTHING."

Do you know of any well grounded studies comparing the recidivism rates
of different recovery programs?

--
AB5DB9CC

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:D9qVb.4758$QA2.12119@attbi_s52...
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:40:56 GMT, Julie LaRue
<Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The people who wrote the book said, "Half Measures Availed us
> > NOTHING."
>
> Do you know of any well grounded studies comparing the recidivism
rates
> of different recovery programs?
>

Citing the following AA documentation usually over excites A.A.
"Meetings Meetings Meetings" fanatics;-)


"There were alcoholics in the hospitals of whom A.A. could touch and
help only about five percent. The doctors started giving them a dose
of LSD, so that the resistance would be broken down. And they had
about fifteen percent recoveries." Nell Wing - Pass It On p 370

and

"A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
truly terrible statistic". (page 2) AA Around Australia. Spring
Edition No 90. October 1994


My attitude was that with a track record such as mine, no matter how
the odds were stacked against me, I was going to give those 12 steps
my best shot.

With benefit of hindsight, I can proclaim that my best shot was good
enough!

Bob

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:D9qVb.4758$QA2.12119@attbi_s52...
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:40:56 GMT, Julie LaRue
<Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > The people who wrote the book said, "Half Measures Availed us
> > NOTHING."
>
> Do you know of any well grounded studies comparing the recidivism
rates
> of different recovery programs?
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

FWIW, I think that no matter which recovery programme an individual
chooses, it won't work if they choose not to work it for long enough
to be able to see results which, in my book, means sticking with it no
matter how tough the going gets. Maybe, some here will consider what
I've said to be stating the obvious.. I can live happily with there
thoughts :^)

Best regards

JB

[Ron]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:45:18 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

> FWIW, I think that no matter which recovery programme an individual
> chooses, it won't work if they choose not to work it for long enough
> to be able to see results which, in my book, means sticking with it no
> matter how tough the going gets. Maybe, some here will consider what
> I've said to be stating the obvious.. I can live happily with there
> thoughts :^)

I think commitment is crucial. I just think that people sometimes
overstate the importance of printed text, especially self-referential
accolades. I'm not looking for an easy way out; I'm just looking for
the truest way through - which is probably not the same for everybody.

One thing I like about this NG is that it's not AA. If all I had was
AA, all I'd hear would be AA (with minor personal variations). Although
this isn't AA, though, the AA philosophy seems to predominate. That's
interesting.

Changing the subject a bit, I'm interested in people's opinions on steps
two and three, as applied to an incorrigible athiest such as myself.
I'm of a mind to think they simply represent the influence of the
fundamentalists in Bill's committee, with a little wishy-washy nod to
the non-believers and uncertain. However, I *am* committed to slogging
my way through this. It certainly won't hurt the cockles of my heart to
ponder and reflect on these things a bit.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God as we understood Him.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 23:19:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> Citing the following AA documentation usually over excites A.A.
> "Meetings Meetings Meetings" fanatics;-)
>
> "There were alcoholics in the hospitals of whom A.A. could touch and
> help only about five percent. The doctors started giving them a dose
> of LSD, so that the resistance would be broken down. And they had
> about fifteen percent recoveries." Nell Wing - Pass It On p 370
>
> and
>
> "A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
> of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
> truly terrible statistic". (page 2) AA Around Australia. Spring
> Edition No 90. October 1994

Yeah, I saw those. I'm already beginning to notice the churn at
meetings. I still like them, though. The meetings I've been attending
are primarily speaker meetings, with an occasional bit of discussion at
the end. Usually people hang out afterwards and talk a bit also.

I have to admit, there's a lot going on with all of this that is
absolutely fascinating, completely independant of alcoholic recovery.
That's a digression for another day, perhaps..

> My attitude was that with a track record such as mine, no matter how
> the odds were stacked against me, I was going to give those 12 steps
> my best shot.

Yeah, me too. Kicking and screaming the whole way..

> With benefit of hindsight, I can proclaim that my best shot was good
> enough!

I can't see past my own nose. ;)

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:42:16 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>I think commitment is crucial. I just think that people sometimes
>overstate the importance of printed text, especially self-referential
>accolades. I'm not looking for an easy way out; I'm just looking for
>the truest way through - which is probably not the same for everybody.

I firmly believe that the printed text itself is what keeps AA
fellowship from going completely off-beam and resulting in a near-100%
relapse rate. The printed text is a far truer way through than the
oft-spoken "just don't drink and go to meetings".

>One thing I like about this NG is that it's not AA. If all I had was
>AA, all I'd hear would be AA (with minor personal variations).

I also appreciate the value of this newsgroup. Because it is not AA,
more discussion tends to take place about the subject of alcoholism.
However, by its nature this group tends to be steeped in Step 1.

>Changing the subject a bit, I'm interested in people's opinions on steps
>two and three, as applied to an incorrigible athiest such as myself.

If we accept (in Step 1) that an alcoholic's own mental apparatus at
certain times has no effective mental defence against the first drink,
without an alternative to that apparatus he's doomed to an alcoholic
death.

Step 2 could mean nothing more than "came to believe that the program
could work, even in my case". It makes no mention of coming to
believe IN anything at all, it's coming to believe THAT something
somewhere could relieve the alcoholic condition outlined in Step 1.
It refers specifically to a Higher Power as distinct from human power
such as a shrink. To an agnostic such as myself, this can be simply
developing the higher thought (conscience) that was blotted out by
booze.

Many people think they've not done Step 2 properly because they don't
"feel" better, or don't "feel" their conscience is right. But Bill's
writing was such that he'd first define the problem (a), then the
solution (b), then how to get from a to b. Step 12 highlights this,
saying "having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these
Steps..." If the spiritual awakening happens at Step 2, Step 12 would
be worded differently. If sanity is restored at Step 2, there'd be no
need for the remaining Steps.

Step 3 also has some common misconceptions. It makes no mention of
"prayer", "handing over" or "God's will" at all. It refers
specifically to our will (thinking) and our lives (actions). And it
specifically states that a decision is being made.

It's kind of difficult to hand my will and life over to the care of an
entity I don't even believe in. But I made one or two decisions of my
own with this Step:

1. Decided to quit handing my will and life over to the care of fear.
2. Decided to quit playing God
3. Decided to work the program

Some people refer to Steps 1 thru 3, then say they haven't got around
to writing Step 4. By definition they've not really taken Step 3.
Given that Step 2 is coming to believe that the program could work,
such a person is really back in Step 1, which is the problem.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:XxuVb.4397$032.17894@attbi_s53...
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:45:18 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
<snip>

> Changing the subject a bit, I'm interested in people's opinions on
steps
> two and three, as applied to an incorrigible athiest such as myself.
> I'm of a mind to think they simply represent the influence of the
> fundamentalists in Bill's committee, with a little wishy-washy nod
to
> the non-believers and uncertain. However, I *am* committed to
slogging
> my way through this. It certainly won't hurt the cockles of my
heart to
> ponder and reflect on these things a bit.
>
> 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore
us
> to sanity.

Hi again,

When I quit drinking on 10th June 2003 I did not believe that I would
stay stopped for long if I relied only on my willpower so I searched
the internet for support groups and found this one and AA on-line. I
thought I would not be able to rely only on my willpower because I was
familiar with its history of letting me down :^)

When I realised that I needed more help and support not to drink than
this NG and AA on-line could provide, I started going to AA meetings
and found a Sponsor.

I consider all whom I've mentioned to be powers greater than myself .
Why ? Because I believe that the support they've given me and the
lessons I've learnt from them have made it easier for me to stay sober
for nearly eight months than it would have been if I'd relied only on
my willpower. I believe that if I stay with them I'll have a better
chance of staying sober than if I again isolate myself.

Best regards

JB

* I first quit drinking in the early 1990's. By using my willpower,
I
didn't drink again for nearly 8 years.
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2f3a56ab2a331454db005bd2a7cf5fed@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 17:42:16 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
<snip>
> Step 2 could mean nothing more than "came to believe that the
program
> could work, even in my case". It makes no mention of coming to
> believe IN anything at all, it's coming to believe THAT something
> somewhere could relieve the alcoholic condition outlined in Step 1.
> It refers specifically to a Higher Power as distinct from human
power
> such as a shrink. To an agnostic such as myself, this can be simply
> developing the higher thought (conscience) that was blotted out by
> booze.
>
> Many people think they've not done Step 2 properly because they
don't
> "feel" better, or don't "feel" their conscience is right. But
Bill's
> writing was such that he'd first define the problem (a), then the
> solution (b), then how to get from a to b. Step 12 highlights this,
> saying "having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these
> Steps..." If the spiritual awakening happens at Step 2, Step 12
would
> be worded differently. If sanity is restored at Step 2, there'd be
no
> need for the remaining Steps.

<snip>

> Blue Moon

Dear Blue,

Your reply has made me think that I've completely misunderstood Step
2. Therefore, I've gone to the BB to try to find where I think the
basis of your argument might be. I think it's in Chapter 2:
..
"If you are as seriously alcoholic as we were, we believe there is no
middle-of-the-road solution. We were in a position where life was
becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which
there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One
was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our
intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept
spiritual help. This we did because we honestly wanted to, and were
willing to make the effort."

"Some of our alcoholic readers may think they can do without spiritual
help. Let us tell you the rest of the conversation our friend had with
his doctor.

The doctor said: "You have the mind of a chronic alcoholic. I have
never seen one single case recover, where that state of mind existed
to the extent that it does in you." Our friend felt as though the
gates of hell had closed on him with a clang.

He said to the doctor, "Is there no exception?"

"Yes," replied the doctor, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as
yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a
while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual
experiences. To me these occurrences are phenomena. They appear to be
in the nature of huge emotional displacements and rearrangements.
Ideas, emotions, and attitudes which were once the guiding forces of
the lives of these men are suddenly cast to one side, and a completely
new set of conceptions and motives begin to dominate them. In fact, I
have been trying to produce some such emotional rearrangement within
you. With many individuals the methods which I employed are
successful, but I have never been successful with an alcoholic of your
description."*

Upon hearing this, our friend was somewhat relieved, for he reflected
that, after all, he was a good church member. This hope, however, was
destroyed by the doctor's telling him that while his religious
convictions were very good, in his case they did not spell the
necessary vital spiritual experience.

Here was the terrible dilemma in which our friend found himself when
he had the extraordinary experience, which as we have already told
you, made him a free man.

We, in our turn, sought the same escape with all the desperation of
drowning men. What seemed at first a flimsy reed, has proved to be the
loving and powerful hand of God. A new life has been given us or, if
you prefer, "a design for living" that really works".

Could you please tell me whether or not my thinking is correct.

Also, I'd be grateful if you would share your thoughts on whether the
help and support that some recovering alcoholics obtain from other
recovering alcoholics and/or others is covered by any of the Steps.

Best regards

JB

[Ron]

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:13:19 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I firmly believe that the printed text itself is what keeps AA
> fellowship from going completely off-beam

True. I don't think we should burn the blue book or anything. I just
find it amusing how putting words on paper tends to lend them such
import. The difficulty of getting something printed, the editorial
process, and so forth tends to improve the quality beyond unrevised
ranting. But sometimes they become gospel. The problem with words on
paper is that without constant review and revision they don't move very
much. (Witness all the problems this caused the church when Copernicus,
Galileo and Darwin came along...) (In the case of historical annals,
of course, that's very appropriate.)

> If we accept (in Step 1) that an alcoholic's own mental apparatus at
> certain times has no effective mental defence against the first drink,
> without an alternative to that apparatus he's doomed to an alcoholic
> death.

Does step one say we have no defense against the first drink? ...'we
were powerless' ... 'lives had become unmanageable.' I don't read that
to mean I can't avoid the first drink. It's more about what happens
once I start.

> Step 2 could mean nothing more than "came to believe that the program
> could work, even in my case". It makes no mention of coming to
> believe IN anything at all, it's coming to believe THAT something
> somewhere could relieve the alcoholic condition outlined in Step 1.

Maybe 'believe that we need help'. Don't do it alone. (?) In that
case, maybe I'm further along than I give myself credit for. I'm happy
to dump my baggage on anyone willing to listen.. ;) I go to meetings...

> It's kind of difficult to hand my will and life over to the care of an
> entity I don't even believe in. But I made one or two decisions of my
> own with this Step:
>
> 1. Decided to quit handing my will and life over to the care of fear.
> 2. Decided to quit playing God
> 3. Decided to work the program

These things I can do.

I'm not sure I'm completely reconciled with these steps yet though. I'm
gonna chew some more. It's not a race..

--
AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:tBwVb.121399$U%5.600606@attbi_s03...
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:13:19 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:
<snip>
> > If we accept (in Step 1) that an alcoholic's own mental apparatus
at
> > certain times has no effective mental defence against the first
drink,
> > without an alternative to that apparatus he's doomed to an
alcoholic
> > death.
<snip>
> > Step 2 could mean nothing more than "came to believe that the
program
> > could work, even in my case". It makes no mention of coming to
> > believe IN anything at all, it's coming to believe THAT something
> > somewhere could relieve the alcoholic condition outlined in Step
1.
>
> Maybe 'believe that we need help'. Don't do it alone. (?) In that
> case, maybe I'm further along than I give myself credit for. I'm
happy
> to dump my baggage on anyone willing to listen.. ;) I go to
meetings...
<snip>
> I'm not sure I'm completely reconciled with these steps yet though.
I'm
> gonna chew some more. It's not a race..
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

Ron,

This thread has enabled me to realise that I have a great deal more to
learn about the meaning of Steps 1, 2 and 3. Many thanks for
providing this opportunity to deepen my understanding.

Best regards.

JB

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:58:38 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>Could you please tell me whether or not my thinking is correct.

I have no idea whether your thinking is correct, as you didn't provide
any. However, the chapter you refer to is entitled "there is a
solution", so I believe it's one good place to seek understanding.

Some believe that a group or a sponsor can help them, and that's fine.
Others, of a more religious nature, choose to believe that Step 2 is
about God, which is also fine. Some get so bogged down in Step 2 that
they don't take the subsequent Steps, which is not fine.

So I'm not sure that too much discussion about Step 2 is particularly
helpful, because it can simply postpone the prescribed actions. Steps
1 and 3 are much more significant.

>Also, I'd be grateful if you would share your thoughts on whether the
>help and support that some recovering alcoholics obtain from other
>recovering alcoholics and/or others is covered by any of the Steps.

You mean the receipt of help and support, or the giving of it?
Receipt of help and support is not outlined in any Step, although some
Steps involve other people. Giving help and support is in Step 12.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 20:02:33 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>Does step one say we have no defense against the first drink? ...'we
>were powerless' ... 'lives had become unmanageable.' I don't read that
>to mean I can't avoid the first drink. It's more about what happens
>once I start.

That's only half of it. "Powerless over alcohol" describes the
physical allergy you refer to. Any sane person who develops this
abnormal reaction would simply quit.

"Lives had become unmanageable" describes the mental stuff that
eventually sends an alcoholic back to drinking again.

Yes, the book makes several references to the fact that "at certain
times the alcoholic has no effective mental defence against the first
drink". I recommend a read of the "doctor's opinion" and chapters 2
and 3.

>> 1. Decided to quit handing my will and life over to the care of fear.
>> 2. Decided to quit playing God
>> 3. Decided to work the program
>
>These things I can do.
>
>I'm not sure I'm completely reconciled with these steps yet though. I'm
>gonna chew some more. It's not a race..

Then you're not reconciled with item 3 in the above list :)

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:11:13 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>This thread has enabled me to realise that I have a great deal more to
>learn about the meaning of Steps 1, 2 and 3. Many thanks for
>providing this opportunity to deepen my understanding.

It took me quite a while of taking the actions before I was able to
adequately, in my perspective, comprehend Steps 1 thru 3.

It was only after I was restored to relative sanity that I came to
believe it was possible.

Likewise I don't really need to know the ins and outs of a headache
and its medication. I don't even have to believe the medication will
work. I just need to "1. admit I have a headache", "2. come to
believe that a pill could relieve the condition", "3. make a decision
to take the pill", and "4. actually follow through with that decision
by taking the actions of going to the store, buying the pills and
taking one". By this example, you'll hopefully note that Steps 1 thru
3 alone have nothing to do with actually recovering from the
condition.

--
Blue Moon

[neuro equipoise]

On - Sun, Feb 8, 2004, 5:42pm (EST+5) can@the.spam (Ron) wrote:

> Changing the subject a bit, I'm interested in
> people's opinions on steps two and three, as
> applied to an incorrigible athiest such as myself.

> 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than
> ourselves could restore us to sanity.

In natural healing traditions around the world, "belief" (not leaving
room for doubt) is the first step required for healing. Belief is the
realm of the creative imagination, where healing takes place, and where
the placebo effect originates. Step 2 does not ask you to rationalize,
but to believe. To shift thinking to the right hemisphere where
creative thinking takes place, where spiritual thinking takes place.
Spiritual thinking is being able to see patterns of interconnectivity,
to see holistically.

Sanity means health.

In natural medicine traditions, opening the healing imagination is
opening the door to positive change.
It changes chemistry. Positive thoughts create positive chemicals in
the brain. When health is restored, the whole becomes greater than the
sum of its parts.


> 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives
> over to the care of God as we understood Him.

To some people, the word "God" just means abundance. Having health is
considered abundance.

On the neuro-biological level the abundance of dopamine receptors is
what makes it possible to see large patterns of interconnectivity
(spirituality), and an abundance of those receptors is what allows
positive chemistry to flow in the brain. This lowers anxiety levels, and
allows a person to feel serenity.
Healing rituals of caring and sharing, on the neurology level, build
dopamine receptors.

[Moonraker]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:447b27feab2b48dbc0e4d2b205031ea6@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:11:13 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
> Likewise I don't really need to know the ins and outs of a headache
> and its medication. I don't even have to believe the medication will
> work. I just need to "1. admit I have a headache", "2. come to
> believe that a pill could relieve the condition", "3. make a decision
> to take the pill", and "4. actually follow through with that decision
> by taking the actions of going to the store, buying the pills and
> taking one". By this example, you'll hopefully note that Steps 1 thru
> 3 alone have nothing to do with actually recovering from the
> condition.
>
Amazing....several of the guys from my home group and I went to a 4th Step
workshop yesterday afternoon. The workshop leader/presenter used almost
this EXACT same illustration.

One of my friends uses this illustration about Step 3:

Q. "If you have 3 bullfrogs sitting on a log, and one decides to jump into
the pond, how many bullfrogs do you have left?

A. "Still 3. He only "decided" to jump. His butt is still on the log."

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:447b27feab2b48dbc0e4d2b205031ea6@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:11:13 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >This thread has enabled me to realise that I have a great deal more
to
> >learn about the meaning of Steps 1, 2 and 3. Many thanks for
> >providing this opportunity to deepen my understanding.
>
> It took me quite a while of taking the actions before I was able to
> adequately, in my perspective, comprehend Steps 1 thru 3.
>
> It was only after I was restored to relative sanity that I came to
> believe it was possible.
>
> Likewise I don't really need to know the ins and outs of a headache
> and its medication. I don't even have to believe the medication
will
> work. I just need to "1. admit I have a headache", "2. come to
> believe that a pill could relieve the condition", "3. make a
decision
> to take the pill", and "4. actually follow through with that
decision
> by taking the actions of going to the store, buying the pills and
> taking one". By this example, you'll hopefully note that Steps 1
thru
> 3 alone have nothing to do with actually recovering from the
> condition.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Blue,

Unless I feel confident that I understand what it is I'm supposed to
be trying to achieve when I work a particular Step, I'm not able to
feel at ease with myself. FWIW, this characteristic has shown itself
many times over the years each time I've undertaken studies. I'm
coming to believe that I've long desired to always achieve "perfect
understanding" of whatever it is I've chosen to study. I'm beginning
to understand the difficulties with trying to attain such a goal and
also the consequences for me of what it does to me when I try to
achieve it and am trying to change my behaviour. It's not easy.

Best regards

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:tBwVb.121399$U%5.600606@attbi_s03...
> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:13:19 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > I firmly believe that the printed text itself is what keeps AA
> > fellowship from going completely off-beam
>
> True. I don't think we should burn the blue book or anything. I
just
> find it amusing how putting words on paper tends to lend them such
> import.

I find it amusing that folk who don't identify with the problem for
which the Big Book presents a solution are distressed by the solution
that was not for them anyway.

Bob

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:04:12 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:tBwVb.121399$U%5.600606@attbi_s03...

>> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:13:19 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> > I firmly believe that the printed text itself is what keeps AA
>> > fellowship from going completely off-beam
>>
>> True. I don't think we should burn the blue book or anything. I
> just
>> find it amusing how putting words on paper tends to lend them such
>> import.
>
> I find it amusing that folk who don't identify with the problem for
> which the Big Book presents a solution are distressed by the solution
> that was not for them anyway.

I do identify with the problem. I just find it amusing that some people
can't understand why someone would want to use different colored
highlighters. What is or isn't for me is for me to decide.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:09:22 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:

> One of my friends uses this illustration about Step 3:
>
> Q. "If you have 3 bullfrogs sitting on a log, and one decides to jump into
> the pond, how many bullfrogs do you have left?
>
> A. "Still 3. He only "decided" to jump. His butt is still on the log."

A simple program...

...christ I am one big f'ing dweeb.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Moonraker]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:VZCVb.124478$U%5.605435@attbi_s03...
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:09:22 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:
>
> > One of my friends uses this illustration about Step 3:
> >
> > Q. "If you have 3 bullfrogs sitting on a log, and one decides to jump
into
> > the pond, how many bullfrogs do you have left?
> >
> > A. "Still 3. He only "decided" to jump. His butt is still on the
log."
>
> A simple program...
>
> ..christ I am one big f'ing dweeb.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

It's a simple program for complicated people.

There's an old boy who comes around to some of the meetings I attend. I
guess he has maybe 27 years or so in the program. He tells the story on
himself that when he was first getting sober, one of the old curmudgeons in
his group said, "Boy, they's two kinds a people who don't make it in AA.
Them what's too smart, and them what's too rich. I reckon you got a
chance, bastard."

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:4UCVb.249422$I06.2754898@attbi_s01...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:04:12 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:tBwVb.121399$U%5.600606@attbi_s03...
>
> >> On Sun, 08 Feb 2004 18:13:19 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > I firmly believe that the printed text itself is what keeps AA
> >> > fellowship from going completely off-beam
> >>
> >> True. I don't think we should burn the blue book or anything. I
> > just
> >> find it amusing how putting words on paper tends to lend them
such
> >> import.
> >
> > I find it amusing that folk who don't identify with the problem
for
> > which the Big Book presents a solution are distressed by the
solution
> > that was not for them anyway.
>
> I do identify with the problem. I just find it amusing that some
people
> can't understand why someone would want to use different colored
> highlighters. What is or isn't for me is for me to decide.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

But what about the real alcoholic?
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm

Bob

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c072ef$13hrik$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...

Bob wrote:
> > > I find it amusing that folk who don't identify with the problem
> for
> > > which the Big Book presents a solution are distressed by the
> solution
> > > that was not for them anyway.

Ronb wrote:
>
> > I do identify with the problem. I just find it amusing that some
> people
> > can't understand why someone would want to use different colored
> > highlighters. What is or isn't for me is for me to decide.
> >
> > --
> > AB5DB9CC

Bob wrote:
>
> But what about the real alcoholic?
> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
>
> Bob
>
IMO, whoever thinks you do not enable anyone to further their
understanding of alcoholism and recovery from it is a fool :^).

Best regards

JB

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> But what about the real alcoholic?
> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm

I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's ironic.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Moonraker]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > But what about the real alcoholic?
> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
>
> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's ironic.
>

Ron...what "religious agenda" do you perceive on pg 21? Just try to read
the words, not what you "see" between the lines, OK?

AA is religious? NOT!! I've been to thousands of meetings. Never once
have I seen anyone wearing robes and slinging incense.

Now, I have seen folks wearing robes and slinging ropes over tree
branches....but that's a different organization. :>)

[neuro equipoise]

On - Mon, Feb 9, 2004, 12:58pm (EST+5) JBCatRB@coldman.com (JB) wrote:

> IMO, whoever thinks you do not enable anyone to
> further their understanding of alcoholism and
> recovery from it is a fool :^).

Bipolar (manic depression) is a genetically inherited condition, and in
manic cycles the person is *unable* to inhibit drinking or spending
sprees, etc. A person who was just a social drinker before the bipolar
manifests (triggered by great stress, for example), will become an
uncontrollable drinker during a manic phase. Each manic phase deepens
the drinking problem, unless the bipolar mood swings are stabilized. A
malfunction of "braking receptors" is involved.


Quote:

"The bipolar patients are not continuously abnormal, being quite
functional in the periods in between their manic and depressive phases
— indeed, they may get a lot done. But there is a lot of alcoholism
and drug abuse associated with manic-depressive illness"

http://williamcalvin.com/bk7/bk7ch10.htm

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:23:11 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:
>
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
>> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
>> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> > But what about the real alcoholic?
>> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
>>
>> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
>> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's ironic.
>
> Ron...what "religious agenda" do you perceive on pg 21? Just try to read
> the words, not what you "see" between the lines, OK?

The difference between the man who may lose everything, need medical
attention, and die before his time, and the so-called 'real' alcoholic
described, is that the 'real' alcoholic's problem is out of his hands.
Only by making a decision to turn his(her) will and his(her) life over
to the care of God (as we understood Him .. *cough*) can this person be
restored to sanity. Fortunately, the bible-thumper's agenda was
moderated. Unfortunately, enough of thier agenda still shows through to
muddy meanings and set people who are more alike than different
bickering over semantics.

> AA is religious? NOT!! I've been to thousands of meetings. Never once
> have I seen anyone wearing robes and slinging incense.

That's my experience also. I'm just trying to point out that the Big
Book's message is just people saying stuff in print, and should not be
exhalted on high. Earnest people. Good people. Well-intentioned
people. Experienced people. But just people.

> Now, I have seen folks wearing robes and slinging ropes over tree
> branches....but that's a different organization. :>)

That would be a sure cure for alcoholism... ;)

--
AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"neuro equipoise" <NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:22282-40279AFC-9@storefull-3274.bay.webtv.net...
On - Mon, Feb 9, 2004, 12:58pm (EST+5) JBCatRB@coldman.com (JB) wrote:

> IMO, whoever thinks you do not enable anyone to
> further their understanding of alcoholism and
> recovery from it is a fool :^).

Bipolar (manic depression) is a genetically inherited condition, and
in
manic cycles the person is *unable* to inhibit drinking or spending
sprees, etc. A person who was just a social drinker before the
bipolar
manifests (triggered by great stress, for example), will become an
uncontrollable drinker during a manic phase. Each manic phase deepens
the drinking problem, unless the bipolar mood swings are stabilized.
A
malfunction of "braking receptors" is involved.


Quote:

"The bipolar patients are not continuously abnormal, being quite
functional in the periods in between their manic and depressive phases
- indeed, they may get a lot done. But there is a lot of alcoholism
and drug abuse associated with manic-depressive illness"

http://williamcalvin.com/bk7/bk7ch10.htm

Hi NE,

As you know , I was commenting about Bob McGregor to Bob Mcgregor.
By posting what you have in the way you have some might think that I
was voicing support for you and your views. As you know, I have never
done so. If you have a crystal ball, perhaps it can tell you whether
or not I ever will :^)

Yours

JB

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Y0NVb.128654$U%5.610189@attbi_s03...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:23:11 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev>
wrote:
> >
> > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
> >> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> > But what about the real alcoholic?
> >> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
> >>
> >> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
> >> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's
ironic.
> >
> > Ron...what "religious agenda" do you perceive on pg 21? Just try
to read
> > the words, not what you "see" between the lines, OK?

Ron,

Maybe you'll ind the following helpful:>
> The difference between the man who may lose everything, need medical
> attention, and die before his time, and the so-called 'real'
alcoholic
> described, is that the 'real' alcoholic's problem is out of his
hands.
> Only by making a decision to turn his(her) will and his(her) life
over
> to the care of God (as we understood Him .. *cough*) can this person
be
> restored to sanity. Fortunately, the bible-thumper's agenda was
> moderated. Unfortunately, enough of thier agenda still shows
through to
> muddy meanings and set people who are more alike than different
> bickering over semantics.
>
> > AA is religious? NOT!! I've been to thousands of meetings.
Never once
> > have I seen anyone wearing robes and slinging incense.
>
> That's my experience also. I'm just trying to point out that the
Big
> Book's message is just people saying stuff in print, and should not
be
> exhalted on high. Earnest people. Good people. Well-intentioned
> people. Experienced people. But just people.
>
> > Now, I have seen folks wearing robes and slinging ropes over tree
> > branches....but that's a different organization. :>)
>
> That would be a sure cure for alcoholism... ;)
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Y0NVb.128654$U%5.610189@attbi_s03...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:23:11 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev>
wrote:
> >
> > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
> >> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> > But what about the real alcoholic?
> >> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
> >>
> >> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
> >> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's
ironic.
> >
> > Ron...what "religious agenda" do you perceive on pg 21? Just try
to read
> > the words, not what you "see" between the lines, OK?

<snip>

Ron,

Maybe you'll find the following helpful:

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~clyde/BillW/BB_Introduction.html

(especially Appendix 11)

Best regards

JB

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:07:37 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

> Maybe you'll find the following helpful:
>
> http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~clyde/BillW/BB_Introduction.html

I think the following excerpt supports my point:

Chapter 4:

"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems
impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is
an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death
or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
face."

Get on the soul train or die. Nice.

"But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of
exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping
against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to
face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or
else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up,
something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our
experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."

They 'thought' they were, but they weren't? WTF?

"If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were sufficient
to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago. But we
found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how
much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be
philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all
our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as
marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly."

These 'real' alcoholics are special indeed. No mere mortal will save
*their* ass. The only thing 'real' about this definition of a 'real'
alcoholic is that it's really holier than thou.

I don't think the 'real' alcoholic needs a revival.

--
AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:2vOVb.260072$xy6.1329544@attbi_s02...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:07:37 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you'll find the following helpful:
> >
> > http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~clyde/BillW/BB_Introduction.html
>
> I think the following excerpt supports my point:
>
> Chapter 4:
>
> "To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience
seems
> impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if
he is
> an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic
death
> or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
> face."
<snip>
> AB5DB9CC

Dear Ron,

If you think that you will need more than willpower to control your
drinking, what alternative is there to relying on a Power greater than
yourself ? If you agree that you will need a power greater than
yourself, then you'll need to find it.

IMO, AA does not encourage it's members to believe that in order to
recover, it's necessary for them all to believe in the same God/HP.
Maybe, if you read Appendix 11 and think about it you will eventually
begin to see the God-issue through new eyes.

Best regards

JB

[rosie]

ron,
have you looked into finding meetings that cater to AGNOSTICS? or
ATHEISTS?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:2vOVb.260072$xy6.1329544@attbi_s02...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:07:37 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you'll find the following helpful:
> >
> > http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~clyde/BillW/BB_Introduction.html
>
> I think the following excerpt supports my point:
>
> Chapter 4:
>
> "To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience
seems
> impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if
he is
> an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic
death
> or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives
to
> face."
>
> Get on the soul train or die. Nice.
>
> "But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship
were of
> exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue,
hoping
> against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had
to
> face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or
> else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up,
> something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics.
Our
> experience shows that you need not be disconcerted."
>
> They 'thought' they were, but they weren't? WTF?
>
> "If a mere code of morals or a better philosophy of life were
sufficient
> to overcome alcoholism, many of us would have recovered long ago.
But we
> found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter
how
> much we tried. We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be
> philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things
with all
> our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources,
as
> marshalled by the will, were not sufficient; they failed utterly."
>
> These 'real' alcoholics are special indeed. No mere mortal will
save
> *their* ass. The only thing 'real' about this definition of a
'real'
> alcoholic is that it's really holier than thou.
>
> I don't think the 'real' alcoholic needs a revival.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[neuro equipoise]

On - Mon, Feb 9, 2004, 3:50pm (EST+5) JBCatRB@coldman.com (JB) wrote:


> As you know , I was commenting about Bob
> McGregor to Bob Mcgregor.

I understood. I often talk to Ron, but other people answer.

> By posting what you have in the way you have
> some might think that I was voicing support for
> you and your views. As you know, I have never
> done so.

I posted that understanding manic phases of bipolar is part of
understanding some alcoholism. Whether anyone agrees or not, is their
own choice.


> If you have a crystal ball, perhaps it can tell you
> whether or not I ever will :^)

No one can know what tomorrow brings, or what thoughts one will think in
the future.

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:36:37 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

> If you think that you will need more than willpower to control your
> drinking, what alternative is there to relying on a Power greater than
> yourself ? If you agree that you will need a power greater than
> yourself, then you'll need to find it.
>
> IMO, AA does not encourage it's members to believe that in order to
> recover, it's necessary for them all to believe in the same God/HP.
> Maybe, if you read Appendix 11 and think about it you will eventually
> begin to see the God-issue through new eyes.

I think the religious import of the Big Book is very clear. I think a
lot of people swallow this by definining 'spirituality' and 'God' to
suit their tastes. I'm fine with that.

So then we end up with something like: "The 'real' alcoholic is someone
who needs some assistance." Suits me just fine. But I don't think for
a second that's what our Overlord Bill would have us believe. Which
gets back to the original point about not turning books into gospels.

> Best regards

And to you, also.

--
AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:UePVb.212284$nt4.990651@attbi_s51...

> So then we end up with something like: "The 'real' alcoholic is
someone
> who needs some assistance." Suits me just fine. But I don't think
for
> a second that's what our Overlord Bill would have us believe. Which
> gets back to the original point about not turning books into
gospels.
<snip>
> AB5DB9CC

LOL When it comes to discussing whether or not books should be
turned into gospels, I'm out of my depth :^) So, IMO, now is a good
time for me to take my leave of you :^)

Best regards

JB

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:NGOVb.50538$M81.33882@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ron,
> have you looked into finding meetings that cater to AGNOSTICS? or
> ATHEISTS?
>
They usually meet under a bridge, somewhere convenient for the "real"
homeless alcoholic who previously rejected AA as a religious cult. ;>)

[Bobby L.]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:NGOVb.50538$M81.33882@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ron,
> have you looked into finding meetings that cater to AGNOSTICS? or
> ATHEISTS?
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>

My experience has been that trying to find an AA meeting that "caters" to
agnostics and atheists is like buying "low fat" pork.

Bobby L

[rosie]

> " rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:NGOVb.50538$M81.33882@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > ron,
> > have you looked into finding meetings that cater to AGNOSTICS?
or
> > ATHEISTS?
> >



a group, something like this?

http://www.lakeweb1.com/mrp/literature/agnost12.htm

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > But what about the real alcoholic?
> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
>
> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's
ironic.
>

The reality that long before we arrived here, real alcoholics were
able to document a tough but effective formula to resolve their
problem seems too much for your ego to handle.

Never mind, with "benefit" of AA attendance and auto suggestion,
arguably, you too can become a real alcoholic.

Bob

[Moonraker]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:2vOVb.260072$xy6.1329544@attbi_s02...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:07:37 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you'll find the following helpful:
> >
> > http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~clyde/BillW/BB_Introduction.html
>
> I think the following excerpt supports my point:
>
> Chapter 4:
>
> "To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems
> impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is
> an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death
> or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
> face."
>
> Get on the soul train or die. Nice.

I guess when death gets close enough, maybe you will climb aboard.

There's an old WW2 saying, "There's no atheists in foxholes." Or, maybe
it's WW1, or Civil War, or whatever. The point stands....

I've been around a few 24hours. Attended 1000's of meetings, at lots of
different groups and in several different states. I've been to enough
meetings regularly in different groups to feel confident in the personal
observation I'm about to share with you:

I have *never* seen anyone come into the program of AA, espousing their
atheism, that has stayed sober. I don't recall anyone who has ever stayed
sober even 3 months. I'm not saying it has never happened, I'm not even
saying that there aren't people who regularly attend the same meetings that
I go to who aren't atheistic. But IF they are atheists, they damn sure are
closed-mouthed about it. Every single one of the "old-timers" that I sit
around the tables with will tell you how they found a God through the
program of AA.

I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WITH LONG TERM SOBRIETY WHO OPENLY CLAIMS
ATHEISM. And I have heard many thousand different people share in
meetings. Not one of them who "kept coming back" admits to atheism.

They are MY observations...not intended to indicate that it's indicitive of
AA as a whole, or an absolute. Only what I've seen with my own two brown
eyes.

So, if you think you can work the program of AA without a God of your
understanding....more's the power to you. I wish you success. I have to
confess that I'm not very optimistic about your chances, based on what I've
seen first hand.

I pray to the God you don't believe exists that you'll somehow work through
your problem and stay sober. Good luck..

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:29:33 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:
>
> " rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:NGOVb.50538$M81.33882@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> ron,
>> have you looked into finding meetings that cater to AGNOSTICS? or
>> ATHEISTS?
>>
> They usually meet under a bridge, somewhere convenient for the "real"
> homeless alcoholic who previously rejected AA as a religious cult. ;>)

:)

I like my meetings fine, hand-holding lord's prayer and all.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 05:02:18 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> The reality that long before we arrived here, real alcoholics were
> able to document a tough but effective formula to resolve their
> problem seems too much for your ego to handle.

5%, or maybe more with LSD, I think? Anyway, my religious beliefs have
nothing to do with my ego. Praising the lord on acid is an interesting
concept...

Do you believe in God?

> Never mind, with "benefit" of AA attendance and auto suggestion,
> arguably, you too can become a real alcoholic.

Awww shucks, Bob. That's awfully nice of you..

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:04:35 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:

> I guess when death gets close enough, maybe you will climb aboard.

Doubt it.

> I don't recall anyone who has ever stayed sober even 3 months.

A few more weeks, and I'll tell you about it.

> I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WITH LONG TERM SOBRIETY WHO OPENLY CLAIMS
> ATHEISM. And I have heard many thousand different people share in
> meetings. Not one of them who "kept coming back" admits to atheism.

Maybe that's because despite many people's claims that AA does not
promote religion, these people see that in fact it does, grow weary, and
leave.

How many people who go to church admit they are atheists?

> I pray to the God you don't believe exists that you'll somehow work through
> your problem and stay sober. Good luck..

Thanks. You too.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:23:11 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:
>
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
>> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
>> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> > But what about the real alcoholic?
>> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
>>
>> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
>> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's ironic.

> Ron...what "religious agenda" do you perceive on pg 21? Just try to read
> the words, not what you "see" between the lines, OK?
>
> AA is religious? NOT!! I've been to thousands of meetings. Never once
> have I seen anyone wearing robes and slinging incense.

But later in this thread you say you've never seen an athiest succeed -
i.e. that a belief in God is essential to recovery.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:plRVb.264965$na.421384@attbi_s04...
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 05:02:18 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > The reality that long before we arrived here, real alcoholics were
> > able to document a tough but effective formula to resolve their
> > problem seems too much for your ego to handle.
>
> 5%, or maybe more with LSD, I think? Anyway, my religious beliefs
have
> nothing to do with my ego.

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:XxuVb.4397$032.17894@attbi_s53...

>>>>> Changing the subject a bit, I'm interested in people's opinions
on steps
>>>>> two and three, as applied to an incorrigible athiest such as
myself.

If you regard your atheism as more important than your "pseudo"
alcoholism, your religious belief has everything to do with your ego.

>Praising the lord on acid is an interesting
> concept...

Praising the Lord on acid is pertinent to anything other than the
limitations of your perception?

>
> Do you believe in God?

Have no need to believe in God. The only step that called for anything
like belief in God is step 11. By the time I took step eleven, I found
what I was looking for. Believers calling that discovery God is no
surprise to me.

>
> > Never mind, with "benefit" of AA attendance and auto suggestion,
> > arguably, you too can become a real alcoholic.
>
> Awww shucks, Bob. That's awfully nice of you..

That's not a promise, it's a threat.

Bob

[Ron]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:31:48 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> If you regard your atheism as more important than your "pseudo"
> alcoholism, your religious belief has everything to do with your ego.

Oh. OK, I believe in God then.

Now I can be a 'real' alcoholic. Hooray!

Oh hell, I can quit all this nonsense right now, because I'm just a
'pseudo' alcoholic! That was easy!

I don't choose my religious beliefs out of a hat. I can, however,
choose to do something about my drinking. Of course, if I can choose to
do something, I'm not a 'real' alcoholic, right? You didn't 'choose' to
stop drinking, right? But God didn't help you either. It was, umm,
well let's see now, something deep down inside, very spiritual like, but
not religious.

Maybe you got confused and quit drinking because you had gas.

>> Do you believe in God?
>
> Have no need to believe in God.

Then you are picking and choosing your way through the big blue book.
Good for you.

> The only step that called for anything like belief in God is step
> 11. By the time I took step eleven, I found what I was looking
> for. Believers calling that discovery God is no surprise to me.

Yeah, there's some wishy washy language in there to suit most anybody.
That doesn't detract from the total AA message.

>> > Never mind, with "benefit" of AA attendance and auto suggestion,
>> > arguably, you too can become a real alcoholic.
>>
>> Awww shucks, Bob. That's awfully nice of you..
>
> That's not a promise, it's a threat.

If quibbling about these things makes you upset, let me know, and I'll
stop. As if you didn't know by now, I enjoy arguing. But if I'm
causing hard feelings, that's not my intent. I'm pushing back, is all.
Unfortunately, electronic communication tends to be tone deaf. I enjoy
reading yours and other's responses, and they give me things to think
about.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Moonraker]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:vCRVb.131264$U%5.612650@attbi_s03...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:23:11 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:
> >
> > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:_rMVb.203924$Rc4.1681622@attbi_s54...
> >> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:31:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
> >> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> > But what about the real alcoholic?
> >> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
> >>
> >> I think you promote a tautological definition created to support
> >> religious agenda which you yourself don't fully embrace. It's ironic.
>
> > Ron...what "religious agenda" do you perceive on pg 21? Just try to
read
> > the words, not what you "see" between the lines, OK?
> >
> > AA is religious? NOT!! I've been to thousands of meetings. Never
once
> > have I seen anyone wearing robes and slinging incense.
>
> But later in this thread you say you've never seen an athiest succeed -
> i.e. that a belief in God is essential to recovery.
>
Thank you. Actually, what is essential is a "vital spiritual experience",
i.e., an entire psychic change. IMO, that can't happen under one's own
efforts, it takes spiritual help from a power greater than ourselves. And
when I was trying to get sober, it didn't take much at all to be a power
greater than myself...hell, the doorknob had _me_whipped.

Can you now accept that there is a distinct difference between believing in
God and being religious? Of course, one "must" believe in God if they are
"religious", but one can believe in God with out being religious. Is that
too hard of a concept? Can you seperate the concept of spirituality from
organized religion? It's a God of "your" understanding.....for all I care
"your's" could be some Leprechaun living under a bridge guarding a pot of
gold.

I've been to 1000's of meetings. Never once seen a baptism or a bris. Did
see some crusty old broad threaten to cut a guy's nuts off, though.

"Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's
ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our
human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning
and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it? " BB p49


################
Reminds me of a story about an old preacher who was being questioned by this
young bright, scholarly agnostic.

"So, preacher, do you think the Bible is the inerrant word of God? That
everything in it is truth?

"Yep, sure do", says the preacher.

"Well, I don't!" exclaimed the scholar,

"Whaddya find wrong, boy?", the old preacher said.

" Well, the story about Adam and Eve. They had two sons, right?"

"Yeah, Cain and Abel."

"And they got married, right? So where did those women come from? Did they
marry their sisters? See, I just found a lie in the Bible."

The old preacher grinned and says, " Well, sonny, you won't be the first
guy to go to Hell for worrying about some other man's wife."


Just like there's lots of folks out there who are still drunk because they
couldn't get past the word "God" in the BB.

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:kySVb.12757$QA2.23018@attbi_s52...
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:31:48 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > If you regard your atheism as more important than your "pseudo"
> > alcoholism, your religious belief has everything to do with your
ego.
>
> Oh. OK, I believe in God then.
>
> Now I can be a 'real' alcoholic. Hooray!
>
> Oh hell, I can quit all this nonsense right now, because I'm just a
> 'pseudo' alcoholic! That was easy!

I think that's probably true, so far.

>
> I don't choose my religious beliefs out of a hat. I can, however,
> choose to do something about my drinking. Of course, if I can
choose to
> do something, I'm not a 'real' alcoholic, right? You didn't
'choose' to
> stop drinking, right? But God didn't help you either. It was, umm,
> well let's see now, something deep down inside, very spiritual like,
but
> not religious.
>
> Maybe you got confused and quit drinking because you had gas.

I aint gunna argue the scenery on a journey you have never been on.

>
> >> Do you believe in God?
> >
> > Have no need to believe in God.
>
> Then you are picking and choosing your way through the big blue
book.
> Good for you.

I've often posted about the bullshit in the Big Book.

>
> > The only step that called for anything like belief in God is step
> > 11. By the time I took step eleven, I found what I was looking
> > for. Believers calling that discovery God is no surprise to me.
>
> Yeah, there's some wishy washy language in there to suit most
anybody.
> That doesn't detract from the total AA message.

Given the contradictory messages emanating from AAers, what exactly is
the total AA message, other than a complete babble?

>
> >> > Never mind, with "benefit" of AA attendance and auto
suggestion,
> >> > arguably, you too can become a real alcoholic.
> >>
> >> Awww shucks, Bob. That's awfully nice of you..
> >
> > That's not a promise, it's a threat.
>
> If quibbling about these things makes you upset, let me know, and
I'll
> stop. As if you didn't know by now, I enjoy arguing. But if I'm
> causing hard feelings, that's not my intent. I'm pushing back, is
all.
> Unfortunately, electronic communication tends to be tone deaf. I
enjoy
> reading yours and other's responses, and they give me things to
think
> about.

I do have my sacred cow, the 12 steps.

Being an agnostic, naturally I have issues with the terminology used,
unfortunately I cannot do better than the 50 or so AA founders, and
don't believe anyone else, or any subsequent group, can come up with
superior wording either. Even AA has endorsed the wording each time
they did a new edition, of which there have been four, and reprint, of
which there have been many.

Bob

[Ron]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:57:47 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>> Oh hell, I can quit all this nonsense right now, because I'm just a
>> 'pseudo' alcoholic! That was easy!
>
> I think that's probably true, so far.

When you pick and choose your definitions, you can think anything you
want.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:QVTVb.263468$xy6.1333878@attbi_s02...
> On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 07:57:47 +1000, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> Oh hell, I can quit all this nonsense right now, because I'm just
a
> >> 'pseudo' alcoholic! That was easy!
> >
> > I think that's probably true, so far.
>
> When you pick and choose your definitions, you can think anything
you
> want.
>
> --

Are you pretending that after rejecting AA's description of the "real
alcoholic" you did not pick and choose to suit your own purposes?

Bob

[Ron]

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:15:54 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> Are you pretending that after rejecting AA's description of the "real
> alcoholic" you did not pick and choose to suit your own purposes?

No.

Riddle me this: explain your transcontinental usenet diagnosis. You
seem to know me better than I know myself. Your powers of perception
seem unreal.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:gARVb.265157$na.420868@attbi_s04...
> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:04:35 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev>
wrote:

>
> > I don't recall anyone who has ever stayed sober even 3 months.
>

>
> > I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WITH LONG TERM SOBRIETY WHO OPENLY
CLAIMS
> > ATHEISM.




just another indication that moonie needs to keep looking for
meetings....................
seems the meetings he goes to are held "under a bushel where REAL
"life" is blocked out!

over the years i have met several folks who profess atheism, and
they are SOBER, HAPPY, JOYOUS AND FREE!

my brothers sponsor of 31 yrs, is an atheist, and a wonderful
example to all who enter the doors!

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kjVVb.65585$sd.45313@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:gARVb.265157$na.420868@attbi_s04...
> > On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:04:35 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > > I don't recall anyone who has ever stayed sober even 3 months.
> >
>
> >
> > > I DO NOT KNOW A SINGLE PERSON WITH LONG TERM SOBRIETY WHO OPENLY
> CLAIMS
> > > ATHEISM.
>
>
>
>
> just another indication that moonie needs to keep looking for
> meetings....................
> seems the meetings he goes to are held "under a bushel where REAL
> "life" is blocked out!

How would you know what meetings I go to and what is discussed? I don't
have to hide behind a keyboard and have on-line meetings, like you profess.
I say what I have to say to folks and look them in the eye while doing so.
More than your lazy, lying ass can say.


So, are you saying that one has to be an atheist to be out from under a
bushel? You really ARE an ignorant twat.
>
> over the years i have met several folks who profess atheism, and
> they are SOBER, HAPPY, JOYOUS AND FREE!

BFD. 2 or 3 in 21 years? Haw, haw.


> my brothers sponsor of 31 yrs, is an atheist, and a wonderful
> example to all who enter the doors!
>
BFD.

[Ron]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 16:13:46 -0500, Moonraker <notnow@noway.nev> wrote:

> Thank you. Actually, what is essential is a "vital spiritual
> experience", i.e., an entire psychic change. IMO, that can't happen
> under one's own efforts, it takes spiritual help from a power greater
> than ourselves. And when I was trying to get sober, it didn't take
> much at all to be a power greater than myself...hell, the doorknob had
> _me_whipped.
>
> Can you now accept that there is a distinct difference between
> believing in God and being religious? Of course, one "must" believe
> in God if they are "religious", but one can believe in God with out
> being religious. Is that too hard of a concept? Can you seperate the
> concept of spirituality from organized religion? It's a God of "your"
> understanding.....for all I care "your's" could be some Leprechaun
> living under a bridge guarding a pot of gold.

Well, way back when I made what I thought was an innocent enough comment
about the verisimilitude of printed text. Somehow it spun off into a
discussion about religion. That wasn't my intention, but I guess I'm
the one who started throwing religious material from the Blue Book into
the discussion, so it's my own damn fault. I usually try to avoid such
imbroglios. People's spriritual beliefs, whatever they may be, are
deeply held matters of personal conviction, unlikely susceptible to
wayward usenet rants.

But AA *does* talk about God a lot. And spirituality. And so forth.
And Bill and friends, in the passages I quoted, seem pretty determined
to damn athiests to hell. I'm not too worried about that prospect, but
I do take offense at being ostracized on account of my beliefs.

I don't think there's a God. I could drink until my liver explodes, and
I still won't think there is a God. The benefits of meditation, relaxation,
reflection - that I can grasp; but I think God is an invention. (I'm
not saying this to offend anyone. I've had to listen to enough sermons
in my lifetime that I think I have the right to express an opposing
point of view once in a while, is all.) There is no heaven or hell,
soul or sinner. The brain is the mind. Understanding the brain, we
understand ourselves. We understand very little. The universe is vast
beyond comprehension, at scales both large and small. Our human form is
the end result of billions of years of evolution. Culture, which
includes religion, is just a blip on the evolutionary timescale. I
think this all absolutely fascinating and wonderful.

> "Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of
> God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to
> believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and
> the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?
> " BB p49

What a bunch of jerks those athiests and agnostics are. Especially when
the BB describes them that way. Of course the bible says God is the
alpha and the omega, so BB is not so subtly saying that athiests think
they are God. What a bunch of rubbish. I don't know an athiest
anywhere that isn't dumbstruck and awed by the complexity of the
universe. Of course you can find a know-it-all in any quarter, that
skill is not a speciality peculiar to athiests and agnostics.

I mean no offense to anyone, but I will not don the language of
religion, and speak of 'spirituality' or 'God', or 'Higher Powers' in my
efforts to attain sobriety. It would simply be false. I believe there
are forces greater than myself. I am humble in the face of the universe
around me. But I do not, cannot, and will not believe in dieties,
supernatural powers, and so forth. Bill and his BB buddies would say I
have a big ego. I'm sure I often do. But that has absolutely nothing
to do with my beliefs, Bill and his BB notwithstanding. Getting on my
knees, or otherwise pretending I'm spiritual in any way, would simply be
a lie.

I say these things mostly so that people who choose to continue
conversing with me understand me better. If your beliefs are different,
that's fine with me. I'm not trying to proselytize anyone. God forbid
I unwittingly damn someone to hell on account of my transgressions. ;)

So I will mumble my way through the steps, making appropriate
substitutions as I go, in accordance with what I believe to be true. I
am not going to sacrifice honesty on the altar of sobriety, or to attain
anyone's blessing.

> I've been to 1000's of meetings. Never once seen a baptism or a bris. Did
> see some crusty old broad threaten to cut a guy's nuts off, though.

That seems like as fitting a conclusion to this diatribe as any. We're
all just a bunch of nuts. Chop chop.

--
AB5DB9CC

[neuro equipoise]

On - Tue, Feb 10, 2004, 1:53am (EST+5) can@the.spam (Ron) wrote:

> And Bill and friends, in the passages I quoted,
> seem pretty determined to damn athiests to hell.
> I'm not too worried about that prospect, but I do
> take offense at being ostracized on account of my
> beliefs.

> I don't think there's a God. I could drink until my
> liver explodes, and I still won't think there is a
> God. The benefits of meditation, relaxation,
> reflection - that I can grasp; but I think God is an
> invention. (I'm not saying this to offend anyone.
> I've had to listen to enough sermons in my lifetime
> that I think I have the right to express an opposing
> point of view once in a while, is all.) There is no
> heaven or hell, soul or sinner.

That hellfire and damnation of patriarchal "Gods", the old religious
abuse indoctrinating children with demonic horror stories, punishments,
and shaming, gets classified under societal Stockholm Syndrome today.

[Robert McGregor]

"neuro equipoise" <NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14563-4028C414-10@storefull-3277.bay.webtv.net...
> On - Tue, Feb 10, 2004, 1:53am (EST+5) can@the.spam (Ron) wrote:
>
> > And Bill and friends, in the passages I quoted,
> > seem pretty determined to damn athiests to hell.
> > I'm not too worried about that prospect, but I do
> > take offense at being ostracized on account of my
> > beliefs.
>
> > I don't think there's a God. I could drink until my
> > liver explodes, and I still won't think there is a
> > God. The benefits of meditation, relaxation,
> > reflection - that I can grasp; but I think God is an
> > invention. (I'm not saying this to offend anyone.
> > I've had to listen to enough sermons in my lifetime
> > that I think I have the right to express an opposing
> > point of view once in a while, is all.) There is no
> > heaven or hell, soul or sinner.
>
> That hellfire and damnation of patriarchal "Gods", the old
religious
> abuse indoctrinating children with demonic horror stories,
punishments,
> and shaming, gets classified under societal Stockholm Syndrome
today.
>

Jeez, given there has been absolutely no evidence here at all of
"that" hellfire and damnation, if you insist on navel gazing over the
classification of societal Stockholm Syndrome, a pertinent example
would be adherents like Rosie here. With demonstrable faith in the
doctrine of happy joyous and freeing pharmaceuticals, Rosie gets
drugged, ostensibly to compensate for a serotonin deficiency.
Paradoxically, her symptoms then worsen, necessitating increasingly
stronger doses of the drugs of her faith. What a lucrative racket!

Bob;-)

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.337271@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term
experience with
>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.
>i have however had to take several different meds as each once
finally
>"wears out" and i need to change.

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 09:36:44 -0500 (EST), NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net
(neuro equipoise) wrote:

>On - Mon, Feb 9, 2004, 12:58pm (EST+5) JBCatRB@coldman.com (JB) wrote:
>
>> IMO, whoever thinks you do not enable anyone to
>> further their understanding of alcoholism and
>> recovery from it is a fool :^).
>
>Bipolar (manic depression) is a genetically inherited condition

That's debatable. However, I was not under the impression that this
thread was discussing manic depression.

>"The bipolar patients are not continuously abnormal, being quite
>functional in the periods in between their manic and depressive phases
>— indeed, they may get a lot done. But there is a lot of alcoholism
>and drug abuse associated with manic-depressive illness"

However, it's not always clear what comes first, the drug/alcohol
abuse or the mania.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:24:30 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems
>impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is
>an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death
>or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
>face."
>
>Get on the soul train or die. Nice.

It makes no mention of religion, it refers specifically to living on a
spiritual basis. Big difference. Some of the most religious people
I've encountered have been distinctly lacking in spirituality
("mean-spirited"). Conversely, some of the most spiritual people
I've known have never seemed to feel the need to push their own
notions of "God" or even how people should conduct themselves down
anybody else's throats. They don't need to.

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:86a63fcf7a18b37077d119cf10504fdb@news.teranew s.com...
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:24:30 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
>
> >"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience
seems
> >impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if
he is
> >an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic
death
> >or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
> >face."
> >
> >Get on the soul train or die. Nice.
>
> It makes no mention of religion, it refers specifically to living on
a
> spiritual basis. Big difference. Some of the most religious people
> I've encountered have been distinctly lacking in spirituality
> ("mean-spirited"). Conversely, some of the most spiritual people
> I've known have never seemed to feel the need to push their own
> notions of "God" or even how people should conduct themselves down
> anybody else's throats. They don't need to.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

By definition not a real alcoholic, Ron can afford the luxury of
ignorance, while simultaneously luxuriating in applause at AA
meetings; for not drinking like an ignoramus.

Bob

[Ron]

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:10:10 +1000, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> By definition not a real alcoholic, Ron can afford the luxury of
> ignorance, while simultaneously luxuriating in applause at AA
> meetings; for not drinking like an ignoramus.

Blow me.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:25:56 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:24:30 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
>
>>"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems
>>impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is
>>an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death
>>or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
>>face."
>>
>>Get on the soul train or die. Nice.
>
> It makes no mention of religion, it refers specifically to living on a
> spiritual basis. Big difference.

Then explain why atheists and agnostics can't be spiritual.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 19:57:15 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>But later in this thread you say you've never seen an athiest succeed -
>i.e. that a belief in God is essential to recovery.

I'm not sure how many are truly atheistic, even if they think they
are. Professing atheism can be simply an excuse to be close-minded.
As such, atheists can be just as religious with their atheism as
theists can be with their deity. Both can be equally intolerant of
others, intolerant of alternative perspectives, lacking in
spirituality.

Many recover who are agnostic without having to adopt any other's
ideas about "God". Many who are religious do not recover.

So a belief in God is not necessary to either achieve or maintain
recovery from alcoholism. What is required is willingness. That
includes willingness to be open-minded and question one's own beliefs
(or non-beliefs, as the case may be), willingness to be honest,
willingness to work the program.

--
Blue Moon

[rosie]

>.................. What is required is willingness.


and a power greater than ourselves.

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:RSpWb.16$_66.11@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >.................. What is required is willingness.
>
>
> and a power greater than ourselves.
>
http://au.geocities.com/robert_mcgregor/ourgroup/newbiehp.wav

[neuro equipoise]

On - Wed, Feb 11, 2004, 2:20am (EST+5) mfoco@hotmail.com (Blue*Moon)
wrote:


Neuro Equipose wrote:

>> Bipolar (manic depression) is a genetically
>> inherited condition...


> That's debatable. However, I was not under the
> impression that this thread was discussing manic
> depression.

The studies below are just a sampling of genetic research on bipolar.
This thread detoured *quite* a long way from the original poster's
question, and my reply about bipolar concerned comments made about
understanding alcoholism. I posted that understanding bipolar is also
necessary for understanding some alcoholism.


Research Quotes:

Sjoholt G, Ebstein RP, Lie RT, Berle J, Mallet J, Deleuze JF, Levinson
DF, Laurent C, Mujahed M, Bannoura I, Murad I, Molven A, Steen VM.
Examination of IMPA1 and IMPA2 genes in manic-depressive patients:
association between IMPA2 promoter polymorphisms and bipolar disorder.
Mol Psychiatry. 2003 Dec 23 [Epub ahead of print].

Evidence that a single nucleotide polymorphism in the promoter of the G
protein receptor kinase 3 gene is associated with bipolar disorder.
Mol Psychiatry. 2003 May;8(5):546-57.

Liu J, Juo SH, Terwilliger JD, Grunn A, Tong X, Brito M, Loth JE, Kanyas
K, Lerer B, Endicott J, Penchaszadeh G, Gilliam TC, Baron M.
A follow-up linkage study supports evidence for a bipolar affective
disorder locus on chromosome 21q22.
Am J Med Genet 2001 Mar 8;105(2):189-94

Yoon IS, Li PP, Siu KP, Kennedy JL, Macciardi F, Cooke RG, Parikh SV,
Warsh JJ.
Altered TRPC7 gene expression in bipolar-I disorder.
Biol Psychiatry 2001 Oct 15;50(8):620-6


> However, it's not always clear what comes first,
> the drug/alcohol abuse or the mania.

The inherited genetics of bipolar comes first. Stressors set off the
bipolar manic phase, which leave the person *unable* to inhibit alcohol
consumption, spending sprees, thoughts, etc. That variety of brain
chemistry requires medical intervention, (calibrating the opening and
the shutting cycles of certain receptors).

[neuro equipoise]

On - Sun, Feb 1, 2004, 10:20am bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com (Kai) wrote:

> My husband licked this problem once, and stayed
> sober for over 15 years. Then, 5 years ago, for
> who knows what reason, he surrendered again.

The above comments are from the original post of this thread. My
comments concerning bipolar cycling and alcoholism, were my contribution
in investigating why a 15 year sobriety was overturned.

[Kai]

neuro equipoise wrote:

>
> The above comments are from the original post of this thread. My
> comments concerning bipolar cycling and alcoholism, were my contribution
> in investigating why a 15 year sobriety was overturned.


I feel this is flawed logic. While it is true that many people with
bi-polar
disorder may indeed become alcoholics in an attempt to self-medicate, it
simply does not follow that all alcoholics are bi-polar. Alcoholism
itself
is a genetically inherited disease, and those bi-polar patients likely
carried
the predisposition on a genetic level.

see:
http://www.wemac.com/cdconcpt.html
and
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/bipolar.cfm


for current information regarding both illnesses.

Kai

[Bobby L.]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nEQVb.65261$sd.45299@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > " rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:NGOVb.50538$M81.33882@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > ron,
> > > have you looked into finding meetings that cater to AGNOSTICS?
> or
> > > ATHEISTS?
> > >
>
>
>
> a group, something like this?
>
> http://www.lakeweb1.com/mrp/literature/agnost12.htm
>
>

Yeah, AA-Lite.

[neuro equipoise]

On - Wed, Feb 11, 2004, 6:43pm bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com (Kai) wrote:

> I feel this is flawed logic. While it is true that
> many people with bi-polar disorder may indeed
> become alcoholics in an attempt to self-medicate,
> it simply does not follow that all alcoholics are
> bi-polar.

If you read my recent posts again, you'll see that I said *some*
alcoholics. I did not say that all alcoholics were bipolar. I said
that understanding bipolar is necessary in understanding some
alcoholism. I still kept thinking about your original post, even though
the thread meandered.

[Kai]

neuro equipoise wrote:

> If you read my recent posts again, you'll see that I said *some*
> alcoholics. I did not say that all alcoholics were bipolar. I said
> that understanding bipolar is necessary in understanding some
> alcoholism. I still kept thinking about your original post, even though
> the thread meandered.


My apologies. However, in my case, bi-polar disorder is not the
problem.
Thread drift can be fascinating.

Kai

[Julie LaRue]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message news:IhhWb.2204$_44.4949@attbi_s52...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:25:56 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:24:30 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
> >
> >>"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems
> >>impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is
> >>an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death
> >>or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
> >>face."
> >>
> >>Get on the soul train or die. Nice.
> >
> > It makes no mention of religion, it refers specifically to living on a
> > spiritual basis. Big difference.
>
> Then explain why atheists and agnostics can't be spiritual.
>
They can be spritual! Read "We Agnostics" in AA's Big Book and tell us what
you think. You dont have buy the book to read it you can find several free
sites online that have them.



> --
> AB5DB9CC

[neuro equipoise]

On - Wed, Feb 11, 2004, 9:15pm bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com (Kai) wrote:

> My apologies. However, in my case, bi-polar
> disorder is not the problem. Thread drift can be
> fascinating.

No apology necessary : )
My writing in that post wasn't as clear, unless a person read my posts
further up the thread.

How are things going with your situation, which started this thread, if
you don't mind my asking?

[Ron]

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 02:54:23 GMT, Julie LaRue <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message news:IhhWb.2204$_44.4949@attbi_s52...
>> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:25:56 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:24:30 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
>> >
>> >>"To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems
>> >>impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is
>> >>an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death
>> >>or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to
>> >>face."
>> >>
>> >>Get on the soul train or die. Nice.
>> >
>> > It makes no mention of religion, it refers specifically to living on a
>> > spiritual basis. Big difference.
>>
>> Then explain why atheists and agnostics can't be spiritual.
>>
> They can be spritual! Read "We Agnostics" in AA's Big Book and tell us what
> you think. You dont have buy the book to read it you can find several free
> sites online that have them.

The word 'spiritual' has both religious and non-religous definitions;
most of them are religious. I don't doubt that atheists and agnostics
can be spiritual, if you choose the proper sense of the word. It's a
fine word, as far as that goes; but because it's so loaded, and so
easily confounds and confuses, I prefer to avoid it.

In Bill W's world, the word 'spiritual' has decidedly religious
connotations. If an atheist or agnostic continues as he is, it means
disaster. As he is what? As an atheist or agnostic is all that is
said. As an atheist or agnostic, he is doomed to an alcoholic death -
*OR* - live on a spiritual basis. Now maybe 'spiritual' has many
definitions, but 'atheist' and 'agnostic' do not admit a lot of
interpretation. So how do you contrast 'spiritual' with those terms
without invoking religion?

AA's primary concern is helping the alcoholic. However, although their
efforts to proselytize are not overt (in fact they are purposefully
repressed), in the view of AA's original founders, religious conversion
is essential to recovery. Whether or not those views hold sway in
today's AA is clearly debatable. I'm sure it varies from meeting to
meeting, person to person.

Excerpts from http://www.a-1associates.com/AA/Yale.htm:

I cried out, "If there is a God, will He show Himself?" Then came a
sudden experience in which it seemed the room lit up. It felt as though
I stood on the top of a mountain, that a great clean wind blew, that I
was free.

....

We began to say, "Our only motive as an organization is to help the
alcoholic. And to help him we've got to reach him. Therefore, we can't
collide with his prejudices. So we ain't going to get mixed up with
controversial questions, no matter what we, as individuals, think of
them. We can't get concerned with prohibition, or whether to drink or
not to drink. We can't get concerned with doctrine and dogma in a
religious sense. We can't get into politics, because that will arouse
prejudice which might keep away alcoholics who will go off and die when
they might have recovered."

....

It could not have been presented at first, but sooner or later in his
second, third, or fourth year, the A.A. will be found reading his Bible
quite as often - or more -as he will a standard psychological work.

....

....he had then been around for a couple of months, and he went through
his usual song and dance of the desirability of being honest,
straightening things out with other people, etc. Then he said, "Damn
this God business." At that, people began to wince. I was deeply
shocked, and we had a hurried meeting of the "elders" over in the
corner. We said, "This fellow has got to be suppressed. We can't have
anyone ridiculing the very idea by which we live."

....

We got hold of Jimmy and said, "Listen, you've got to stop this anti-God
talk if you're going to be around this section." Jimmy was cocky and he
said, "Is that so? Isn't it a fact that you folks have been trying to
write a book called Alcoholics Anonymous, and haven't you got a
typewritten introduction in that book, lying over there on that shelf,
and didn't we read it here about a month ago and agree to it?" And Jimmy
went over and took down the introduction to Alcoholics Anonymous and
read out of it: "The only requirement for membership in Alcoholics
Anonymous is an honest desire to get over drinking." Jimmy said, "Do you
mean it or don't you?" He rather had us there. He said, "I've been
honest. Didn't I get my wife back? Ain't I paying my bills? And I'm
helping other drunks every day." There was nothing we could say. Then we
began secretly to hope. Our intolerance caused us to hope that he would
get drunk. Well, he confounded us; he did not get drunk, and louder and
louder did he get with his anti-God talk. Then we used to console
ourselves and say, "Well, after all, this is a very good practice in
tolerance for us, trying to accommodate ourselves to Jimmy." But we
never did really get accommodated.

....

One day Jimmy got a job that took him out on the road, out from under
the old A.A. tent, you might say. And somewhere out on the road his
purely psychological system of staying dry broke wide open, and sure
enough he got drunk. In those days, when an alcoholic got drunk, all
the brethren would come running, because we were still very afraid for
ourselves and no one knew who might be next. So there was great concern
about the brother who got drunk. But in Jimmy's case there was no
concern at all.

....

The next morning, Jimmy came walking downstairs where my friend and I
were consuming our morning gallon of coffee. Jimmy looked at us and
said, "Oh, have you people had any meditation or prayer this morning?"
We thought he was being very sarcastic. But no, he meant it. We could
not get very much out of Jimmy about his experience, but it appeared
that over in that little second-rate hotel he had nearly died from the
worst seizure he had ever had, and something in him had given way. I
think it is just what gave way in me. It was his prideful obstinacy. He
had thought to himself, "Maybe these fellows have got something with
their God-business." His hand reached out, in the darkness, and touched
something on his bureau. It was a Gideon Bible. Jimmy picked it up and
he read from it. I do not know just what he read, and I have always had
a queer reluctance to ask him. But Jimmy has not had a drink to this
day, and that was about 5 years ago.

....

But there were other fruits of what little tolerance and understanding
we did have. Not long ago I was in Philadelphia where we have a large
and strong group. I was asked to speak, and the man who asked me was
Jimmy, who was chairman of the meeting. About 400 people were there. I
told this story about him and added: "Supposing that we had cast Jimmy
out in the dark, supposing that our intolerance of his point of view had
turned him away. Not only would Jimmy be dead, but how many of us would
be together here tonight so happily secure?" So we in A.A. find that we
have to carry tolerance of other people's viewpoints to very great
lengths.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:32:38 -0500 (EST), NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net
(neuro equipoise) wrote:

>> However, it's not always clear what comes first,
>> the drug/alcohol abuse or the mania.
>
>The inherited genetics of bipolar comes first.

No, that's not a certainty. And some bipolars find that simple
cessation of alcohol (and other mind-altering substance) consumption
reduces, sometimes even eliminates, bipolar symptoms.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:10:36 -0600, " rosie"
<readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>>.................. What is required is willingness.
>
>
>and a power greater than ourselves.

No, there is no such requirement.

--
Blue Moon

[rosie]

your right................it is NOT requirement!


"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d4d4410b6159054280825f23159c5473@news.teranew s.com...
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:10:36 -0600, " rosie"
> <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >>.................. What is required is willingness.
> >
> >
> >and a power greater than ourselves.
>
> No, there is no such requirement.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

[rosie]

> No, that's not a certainty. And some bipolars find that simple
> cessation of alcohol (and other mind-altering substance)
consumption
> reduces, sometimes even eliminates, bipolar symptoms.
>
> --
> Blue Moon


ROTFLMAO!

[Kai]

neuro equipoise wrote:

>
> How are things going with your situation, which started this thread, if
> you don't mind my asking?
>


Working on balance, while being honest with myself about how I am really
feeling. We are halfway
through the extended leave, to be followed by one more week at the
rehab, then final discharge.

I can see the wisdom of this "easing back" into regular life, for both
of us. It's a snapshot of
what is to come in 2 weeks. As I had anticipated, it is both terrible
and wonderful at the same time.
Living apart for almost 4 months has convinced us both that we miss each
other terribly, and want to
remain married...but the readjustment will be complicated in some ways.
As another poster suggested,
say what you mean, and mean what you say applies to both of us at this
point - not always comfortable,
but certainly necessary to living together again. I am personally
working on being more open about my
feelings. I was always one to "let it go" to avoid confrontation, but
of course whatever is was is never
really gone - it just resurfaces, bigger and uglier. Dealing with the
small stuff is helping to avoid
that in the future.

By being honest with myself about how I really feel, and owning up my
own shortcomings and dealing with
them in my own way is helping me to remain calm and centered. He cannot
solve my problems, and I certainly
cannot solve his - but we can support each other in our struggles with
personal demons, sometimes with something
as simple as a hug or a touch of the hand.

Last night, I found myself terribly angry after he had gone to bed, and
was unsure as to the source. I felt the
tension rising and stopped for a moment to analyze it instead of letting
it continue to boil. I realized that we
had spent the entire day dealing with another of his ongoing health
problems, and I had slipped back into the old
pattern of total focus on him him him, while he of course was also
focused on him him him (and justifiably so, but so
annoyingly familiar on another level).

Once I had identified what I was so ticked about, I could then figure
out a way to make myself feel better,
so I did a half hour of yoga to calm my mind, then put on some great
music and danced. It was a great release of tension, and I
was finally able to settle down and go to bed. This is real progress
for me. Usually something like this would last
through the night (sleepless) and carry over into the next day. Today,
I feel tired, but the anger has dissipated.

The anger was out of proportion to the situation, but I've got to allow
myself to feel it, and not be afraid of what will
happen if I acknowledge its presence. I think that this will continue
to happen for awhile, until I am able to work through
all the stuff that I haven't been able face and be angry about yet. I
am still over-sensitive to small things and I am
sure, overlooking others. Hopefully, with time an emotional equilibrium
will resurface with all things in their proper
place.

Until then, I am a late night person, and I guess I'll have to get a new
set of cordless headphones for late night dancing.

Kai

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:02:29 GMT, " rosie"
<readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> No, that's not a certainty. And some bipolars find that simple
>> cessation of alcohol (and other mind-altering substance)
>consumption
>> reduces, sometimes even eliminates, bipolar symptoms.
>>
>> --
>> Blue Moon

>ROTFLMAO!

What's so funnny?


--
Blue Moon