A request for your thoughts

[Kai]

I have been lurking here for several months, and while I am not the
alcoholic,
I have found your comments enlightening and encouraging. I am
struggling to understand,
and make some sort of sense of it all. And, failing that, perhaps reach
a sense of peace
and serenity for myself.

I have tried Al-Anon, and found them useless. I have tried reading,
meditating, yoga, widening my circle of friends, detachment,
involvement... you name it, I've given
it a go over the past few years. My husband licked this problem once,
and stayed sober for over 15 years.

Then, 5 years ago, for who knows what reason, he surrendered again. It
has been a long fight,
but I think we are on the road back again. He entered a long term
treatment program, and will be
returning home at the end of this month. He has been home several
weekends, but as the time approaches,
I am feeling uncertain as to how to regain "our" life together. How do
I support his efforts?

I have no desire to return to the power struggles - I have no chance of
ever winning against the booze.
He says the desire to drink is no longer a problem. For this I am
profoundly grateful.
I know about the "honeymoon" period when he first comes out of
treatment... we have been through this
several times in the past several years. The difference this time is
not only the length of time that
he has been away from home, but I have changed as well. This was truly
his last chance with me.
I had reached a point where I was no longer able to watch helplessly as
he killed himself one day at a time
in front of me.

It was his choice to enter treatment, I had told him after the last
rehab experience that "I" would never
again put him in any hospital. That choice was his, alone...but he must
realize that I had choices to make
as well. The man that I love has returned, and I want "him" to
stay.

There are plenty of problems waiting for him when he does return home to
stay - extended family turmoil,
financial, etc. I am sure you all know the drill. But he is my main
concern, and if all is right with us,
the rest will settle as it will. I have no control over how others think
and react, and have no desire to.

So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
place?
How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does he
need from me now?

Kai

> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
> place?
> How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does
he
> need from me now?
>
> Kai

perhaps give ALANON another try?
maybe therapy with an ADDICTIONS counselor?

[Moonraker]

" <rosie>" <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:749Tb.9018$2h.2708@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> maybe therapy with an ADDICTIONS counselor?
>
Another backhanded solicitation for your unliscenced "practice".

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:

>There are plenty of problems waiting for him when he does return home to
>stay - extended family turmoil, financial, etc. I am sure you all know the
>drill. But he is my main concern, and if all is right with us, the rest will
>settle as it will. I have no control over how others think and react, and
>have no desire to.

The important question is not "do I have a desire to drink today?",
but rather "what am I going to do to maintain a healthy perspective?"
If hubby gets out of treatment and carries on doing exactly the same
things as before, the eventual outcome is likely to be the same. He
needs to keep his recovery alive, a day at a time. That needs to be
his primary responsibility, above bills or anything else. Not always
convenient, but neither is kidney dialysis. Only time can actually
tell whether this is the reality.

>So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
>place?
>How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does he
>need from me now?

Your job is to look after you. Always try to say what you mean, and
mean what you say.

--
Blue Moon

>...................... He
> needs to keep his recovery alive, a day at a time. That needs to
be
> his primary responsibility, above bills or anything else. Not
always
> convenient, but neither is kidney dialysis.

:)

>
> Your job is to look after you.

great post BM!

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai
<bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:]

> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What
> is my place? How do I support and encourage without being
> intrusive? What does he need from me now?

Kai, this won't be encouraging, but I'll say it anyway:

First, I think you should be clear to him about the things
you said to us above. IE, that you love him and want to
stay with him, but that you *will* leave if the drinking
resumes. That you want to work together with him thru the
various problems you may have.

What I mean is that I think you should have a blunt,
frank, but as pleasant as possible conversation with him.
Tell him where you are. This is not a threat, it is
simply a fact that he needs to recognize. Do this when
the kids aren't around. Make sure he believes you. Make
sure you believe yourself. In the end, it should be a
loving conversation.

Second, I would make a realistic contingency plan for
yourself and the kids. The odds are against him
permanently getting off the booze. I have seen various
statistics, and I have experienced the fight myself. The
stat I have seen the most is that only about 17% of people
who enter AA stay sober. Who knows if that is accurate?
Nobody.

But it is clear that you need to have a plan that covers
your rear-end if things go bad again. Not a bluff, but
something you can and will do. Determination.

This may include taking some practical steps, like
possibly seeing an attorney and separating yourself from
him financially as much as possible.

I realize that isn't nice, but one of the first things
they taught us in the EMT training class I started to
attend was that your first priority has to be to look out
for yourself. You can't help anyone else when you are
impaired. We alcoholics tend to impair the people around
us. Don't let yourself get caught up in that.

Third, do your best to change your daily routines. I am
speaking mostly from myself here, but I do believe the
daily routines play a part in the other things we do.
Come home, fix a drink. It gets to be a habit.

Make that, come home and go for a walk. Whatever.
Something that breaks the chain of our behaviors. It
might be something very small.

Good luck!

--
Harry

EXCELLENT ADVISE HARRY!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"The Other Harry" <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote in message
news:0ifq10hjh0bv56j7vlls42l7ccqd0v85lk@4ax.com...
> [On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai
> <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:]
>
> > So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What
> > is my place? How do I support and encourage without being
> > intrusive? What does he need from me now?
>
> Kai, this won't be encouraging, but I'll say it anyway:
>
> First, I think you should be clear to him about the things
> you said to us above. IE, that you love him and want to
> stay with him, but that you *will* leave if the drinking
> resumes. That you want to work together with him thru the
> various problems you may have.
>
> What I mean is that I think you should have a blunt,
> frank, but as pleasant as possible conversation with him.
> Tell him where you are. This is not a threat, it is
> simply a fact that he needs to recognize. Do this when
> the kids aren't around. Make sure he believes you. Make
> sure you believe yourself. In the end, it should be a
> loving conversation.
>
> Second, I would make a realistic contingency plan for
> yourself and the kids. The odds are against him
> permanently getting off the booze. I have seen various
> statistics, and I have experienced the fight myself. The
> stat I have seen the most is that only about 17% of people
> who enter AA stay sober. Who knows if that is accurate?
> Nobody.
>
> But it is clear that you need to have a plan that covers
> your rear-end if things go bad again. Not a bluff, but
> something you can and will do. Determination.
>
> This may include taking some practical steps, like
> possibly seeing an attorney and separating yourself from
> him financially as much as possible.
>
> I realize that isn't nice, but one of the first things
> they taught us in the EMT training class I started to
> attend was that your first priority has to be to look out
> for yourself. You can't help anyone else when you are
> impaired. We alcoholics tend to impair the people around
> us. Don't let yourself get caught up in that.
>
> Third, do your best to change your daily routines. I am
> speaking mostly from myself here, but I do believe the
> daily routines play a part in the other things we do.
> Come home, fix a drink. It gets to be a habit.
>
> Make that, come home and go for a walk. Whatever.
> Something that breaks the chain of our behaviors. It
> might be something very small.
>
> Good luck!
>
> --
> Harry

[Ron]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 13:47:36 -0500,
The Other Harry <hcdotme@DELETEntelos.net> wrote:

> [On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:59 -0500, Kai
><bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:]
>
>> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What
>> is my place? How do I support and encourage without being
>> intrusive? What does he need from me now?
>
> What I mean is that I think you should have a blunt,
> frank, but as pleasant as possible conversation with him.

I agree. I'd also recommend doing this in the morning, or rather *not*
after work, supper, getting the kids in bed (or whatever it is for you).
My personal experience is that is just a bad time to have serious
discussions.

> Third, do your best to change your daily routines.

Yeah. That's what I think I'm finding out also. Easier said than done,
but I think it's true.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Julie LaRue]

Dear Kai,

>What do I do?

You need to take care of yourself and simply allow him to go to as many AA
meeting as possible and READ chapter eight, "To Wives" in the Big Book
(Alcoholics Anonymous).



>What is my place?

Just to listen to him, go to open discussion meeting, conventions, and
speaker meetings with him if you want, but there is nothing else you can do
for HIM.





>How do I support and encourage without being intrusive?

You said you have " tried Al-Anon and found them useless." I bet you have
heard your husband say the same thing about AA, but these two programs are
your only real choice of having a life like you desire with your husband.

Did you HONESTLY work through the steps with a Al-Anon sponsor? Help other
Al-Anon's that needed help?

Do you really think that you don't have a problem that needs attention? You
are the sober person who decided to tolerate the abuse this man could give
you. You are sicker than your husband in many ways and you need someone to
help you see this.

You need to finally learn how to take care of yourself instead of your
alcoholic.

Did you happen to notice that all of your questions are about what you can
do for HIM?

Wake up woman! Go back to Al-Anon, be open and honest, LISTEN to their
advice and put it into ACTION.

OR

You can keep doing the same things and keep getting the same bad results.
Its your life, live it.

Many prayers for you both,

Julie




"Kai" <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:401D195B.2FFF14B@ccm.tdsnet.com...
> I have been lurking here for several months, and while I am not the
> alcoholic,
> I have found your comments enlightening and encouraging. I am
> struggling to understand,
> and make some sort of sense of it all. And, failing that, perhaps reach
> a sense of peace
> and serenity for myself.
>
> I have tried Al-Anon, and found them useless. I have tried reading,
> meditating, yoga, widening my circle of friends, detachment,
> involvement... you name it, I've given
> it a go over the past few years. My husband licked this problem once,
> and stayed sober for over 15 years.
>
> Then, 5 years ago, for who knows what reason, he surrendered again. It
> has been a long fight,
> but I think we are on the road back again. He entered a long term
> treatment program, and will be
> returning home at the end of this month. He has been home several
> weekends, but as the time approaches,
> I am feeling uncertain as to how to regain "our" life together. How do
> I support his efforts?
>
> I have no desire to return to the power struggles - I have no chance of
> ever winning against the booze.
> He says the desire to drink is no longer a problem. For this I am
> profoundly grateful.
> I know about the "honeymoon" period when he first comes out of
> treatment... we have been through this
> several times in the past several years. The difference this time is
> not only the length of time that
> he has been away from home, but I have changed as well. This was truly
> his last chance with me.
> I had reached a point where I was no longer able to watch helplessly as
> he killed himself one day at a time
> in front of me.
>
> It was his choice to enter treatment, I had told him after the last
> rehab experience that "I" would never
> again put him in any hospital. That choice was his, alone...but he must
> realize that I had choices to make
> as well. The man that I love has returned, and I want "him" to
> stay.
>
> There are plenty of problems waiting for him when he does return home to
> stay - extended family turmoil,
> financial, etc. I am sure you all know the drill. But he is my main
> concern, and if all is right with us,
> the rest will settle as it will. I have no control over how others think
> and react, and have no desire to.
>
> So I am asking you, who have been there. What do I do? What is my
> place?
> How do I support and encourage without being intrusive? What does he
> need from me now?
>
> Kai

[Kai]

I thank you all for your thoughts. I agree with your
main idea, that being I need to take care of myself
first...and that is what I have been doing for the past
year. Perhaps I should have been clearer in expressing
that point. I have made profound changes in my life,
including therapy.

I do not depend on my husband to define my existence,
rather to enrich my life. Each member of a team must
pull their own weight, yet function together to move
forward. This was the point of my request. I understand
that I am powerless over the disease, that is his fight
alone. In fact, I had left our home, with a plan, and
returned to pack a few final items and pick up my dog
when this final entry into rehab occurred. He had already
left, and checked himself in.

I have continued on with my life, while he has been gone
and life does go on - and I feel that while he is making
an honest and serious attempt to improve his (and our)
life together - I wish to do the same.

My eyes are unfortunately wide open as to the risks and
hazards ahead.. I have lived them before. But, I will
state that he has NEVER before approached the problem
with such seriousness and courage.

As I said before, I am changed - hopefully for the
better, and have no desire whatsoever to return to the
way things were. He was NEVER abusive towards me, in the
classic sense. It was witnessing self-abuse that was torturing
me. I made no excuses, and told no lies to protect him.
My friends and family were fully aware of what was going on
and I had their full support. I was never isolated.

It took me a full year to prepare myself for the action I
eventually took...and thank you Harry, for pointing that
out. As they say before take off, make sure your mask is
in place before trying to help others. I prepared for the
worst, financially, physically and emotionally - while hoping
for the best.

Fortunately, this time around, our son is grown and on his
own, and has been a rock for me. We have been married for
23 years, and retirement is a major challenge approaching
us now.

I did not wish to appear needy and pleading for answers for questions
that obviously have no definitive answers, I was merely
asking for a different perspective from uninvolved yet
knowledgeable individuals. I never felt that honoring my vow to him to
live in sickness and health made me a sick twisted person, as long
as I did not succumb to sickness myself.

I wish to be his partner in life, not his caretaker.


Thanks again.

Kai

[rosie]

> I did not wish to appear needy and pleading for answers for
questions
> that obviously have no definitive answers, I was merely
> asking for a different perspective from uninvolved yet
> knowledgeable individuals.


you didn't sound "needy" to me, but rather a women who loves her
husband and hates his disease.



> I wish to be his partner in life, not his caretaker.
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Kai



best of everything to you.................
rosie

p.s. btw, my husband absolutely HATED
alanon............................and did not continue.
i've been sober for 21+yrs and we are doing fine!
:)

[Julie LaRue]

Kai,

Thanks for the details and I do give you a plenty of credit for dong the
positive things you mentioned. I must point out though that you ignored my
questions about having a Al-Anon sponsor and working the steps with her.
You haven't given Al-Anon a chance to help you if you haven't done this and
I would pray that you reconsider.



"Al-Anon has but one purpose: to help families of alcoholics. We do this by
practicing the Twelve Steps, by welcoming and giving comfort to families of
alcoholics, and by giving understanding and encouragement to the alcoholic."
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/



Going to a therapist or counselor can be a great help, but nothing has
helped me to learn how to live with alcoholism more than listening to the
solutions given by people who have suffered as I have (AA, NA, and Al-Anon).
Its much cheaper also.



Answer these questions at http://www.al-anon.org/quiz.html and see what you
think.



Why would you leave the safety and comfort of YOUR home because your HUSBAND
is an alcoholic. He is the one who needs to leave if he is wishes to drink.
Allowing him to stay in your home is just another way that you enable him to
continue to drink. Let him suffer the consequences of HIS actions.

Much love,

Julie

Thanks for the details and I do give you a plenty of credit for dong the
positive things you mentioned. I must point out though that you ignored my
questions about having a Al-Anon sponsor and working the steps with her.
You haven't given Al-anon a chance to help you if you haven't done this and
I would pray that you reconsider.



"Al-Anon has but one purpose: to help families of alcoholics. We do this by
practicing the Twelve Steps, by welcoming and giving comfort to families of
alcoholics, and by giving understanding and encouragement to the alcoholic."
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/



Going to a therapist or counselor can be a great help, but nothing has
helped me to learn how to live with alcoholism more than listening to the
solutions given by people who have suffered as I have (AA, NA, and Al-Anon).
Its much cheaper also.



Answer these questions at http://www.al-anon.org/quiz.html and see what you
think.



Why would you leave the safety and comfort of YOUR home because your HUSBAND
is an alcoholic. He is the one who needs to leave if he is wishes to drink.
Allowing him to stay in your home is just another way that you enable him to
continue to drink. Let him suffer the consequences of HIS actions.

Much love,

Julie



"Kai" <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:401D9125.9A209EB4@ccm.tdsnet.com...
> I thank you all for your thoughts. I agree with your
> main idea, that being I need to take care of myself
> first...and that is what I have been doing for the past
> year. Perhaps I should have been clearer in expressing
> that point. I have made profound changes in my life,
> including therapy.
>
> I do not depend on my husband to define my existence,
> rather to enrich my life. Each member of a team must
> pull their own weight, yet function together to move
> forward. This was the point of my request. I understand
> that I am powerless over the disease, that is his fight
> alone. In fact, I had left our home, with a plan, and
> returned to pack a few final items and pick up my dog
> when this final entry into rehab occurred. He had already
> left, and checked himself in.
>
> I have continued on with my life, while he has been gone
> and life does go on - and I feel that while he is making
> an honest and serious attempt to improve his (and our)
> life together - I wish to do the same.
>
> My eyes are unfortunately wide open as to the risks and
> hazards ahead.. I have lived them before. But, I will
> state that he has NEVER before approached the problem
> with such seriousness and courage.
>
> As I said before, I am changed - hopefully for the
> better, and have no desire whatsoever to return to the
> way things were. He was NEVER abusive towards me, in the
> classic sense. It was witnessing self-abuse that was torturing
> me. I made no excuses, and told no lies to protect him.
> My friends and family were fully aware of what was going on
> and I had their full support. I was never isolated.
>
> It took me a full year to prepare myself for the action I
> eventually took...and thank you Harry, for pointing that
> out. As they say before take off, make sure your mask is
> in place before trying to help others. I prepared for the
> worst, financially, physically and emotionally - while hoping
> for the best.
>
> Fortunately, this time around, our son is grown and on his
> own, and has been a rock for me. We have been married for
> 23 years, and retirement is a major challenge approaching
> us now.
>
> I did not wish to appear needy and pleading for answers for questions
> that obviously have no definitive answers, I was merely
> asking for a different perspective from uninvolved yet
> knowledgeable individuals. I never felt that honoring my vow to him to
> live in sickness and health made me a sick twisted person, as long
> as I did not succumb to sickness myself.
>
> I wish to be his partner in life, not his caretaker.
>
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Kai

[Kai]

Julie LaRue wrote:


>
I must point out though that you ignored my
> questions about having a Al-Anon sponsor and working the steps with her.
> You haven't given Al-Anon a chance to help you if you haven't done this and
> I would pray that you reconsider.

Julie,
Thank you for your comments. I did not ignore this suggestion, I wanted
to
give some specific thought to my reply. What I found at Al Anon was
simply
not helpful to me personally. I have read the big book, and am familiar
with
the steps and traditions. I understand that all groups have their own
personality,
of course, created by the individuals participating in that group.
and the groups available to me just were not a good fit. I am not by
nature
a secretive person, but I am a private one. The groups (there were 2)
that I
tried placed far to much emphasis on how horrible life was for my
taste. Reliving
the bad times over and over is just not helpful to me. I know that it
can be a cathartic
experience, but I have always preferred to look to the future, rather
than carrying
a sack full of sadness and heartbreak over my shoulder to dump out on a
table on
a regular basis to examine. Again, please understand that this is what
I found
available to me. I am sure that somewhere there is a better fit for me,
but I
have not found it as yet. In the meantime, I do have friends in similar
circumstances that I speak to on a regular basis. Also, while
alcoholism is
obviously a part of my life, it is not my entire life, and will never
become so.
This was not the case in the groups I found.


> Going to a therapist or counselor can be a great help, but nothing has
> helped me to learn how to live with alcoholism more than listening to the
> solutions given by people who have suffered as I have (AA, NA, and Al-Anon).
> Its much cheaper also.

Well, I could certainly get behind that! And, I agree that somewhere
there
is a good group for me. I have participated in the family programs at
the
rehab, and did find them helpful. In fact, the insights I gained there
are what
led me to post here, on my own. I hope that I am not intruding, but
could find
no comparable group on usenet for spouses. But, never say never.



> Why would you leave the safety and comfort of YOUR home because your HUSBAND
> is an alcoholic. He is the one who needs to leave if he is wishes to drink.
> Allowing him to stay in your home is just another way that you enable him to
> continue to drink. Let him suffer the consequences of HIS actions.
>

This was purely selfish on my part. I had no desire to remain in "our"
home with
circumstances the way they were, and felt that a fresh start, free of
the baggage
of memories was the best way for me to go. Also, again selfishly, our
house is
"vintage" and requires constant maintenance and repairs - costly and
complicated.
I'm afraid that my talents never extended to home repair, try though I
do.
It was simply easier for me to comprehend starting over in a new place
of my
own choosing. Believe me, my leaving would not have simplified my
husbands life in
any way. It hasn't been for me, as I am currently living at home again
while he
has been away.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, your good wishes are much
appreciated and
all of your comments and suggestions have gone into the think tank.

Kai

[rosie]

> I hope that I am not intruding, but
> could find
> no comparable group on usenet for spouses. But, never say never.




there is ALT.RECOVERY.FAMILY+FRIENDS but it is not being used at
this time.

[Robert McGregor]

"Kai" <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote in message
news:401DCA43.9D4C1D8D@ccm.tdsnet.com...
>I have participated in the family programs at
> the
> rehab, and did find them helpful. In fact, the insights I gained
there
> are what
> led me to post here, on my own. I hope that I am not intruding, but
> could find
> no comparable group on usenet for spouses. But, never say never.


A few years ago there were sometimes more family/friends than
alcoholics posting here. I'm guessing if you stick around and
contribute occasionally, you might find more peers here than you
imagined.

Bob

[Ron]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:55:47 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:

> I hope that I am not intruding, but could find no comparable group on
> usenet for spouses. But, never say never.

Seems like an appropriate enough forum; 'recovery' would include
spouses, and it's not 'recoverers' (is that a word?)..

I, for one, wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the story. Well, I
already do from my wife, but not in the same way as from an independant
party.

She was pretty mad at me tonight for skipping my regular Sunday AA
meeting to watch the Super Bowl. I'm feeling pretty good, all told, and
am very committed to dealing with my problems; but of course she can't
be inside my head. We have three small children, and she's very
dependant on me right now. I have to keep reminding myself about things
like that, or I take offence at her being upset, and then I get upset,
rinse and repeat..

Best.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie]

>I have to keep reminding myself about things
> like that, or I take offence at her being upset, and then I get
upset,
> rinse and repeat..
>

good reminder for all of us.......................imo, contributing
to our spouses worry is NOT good recovery.



--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:%jlTb.206937$xy6.1060912@attbi_s02...
> On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:55:47 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com>
wrote:
>
> > I hope that I am not intruding, but could find no comparable
group on
> > usenet for spouses. But, never say never.
>
> Seems like an appropriate enough forum; 'recovery' would include
> spouses, and it's not 'recoverers' (is that a word?)..
>
> I, for one, wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the story.
Well, I
> already do from my wife, but not in the same way as from an
independant
> party.
>
> She was pretty mad at me tonight for skipping my regular Sunday AA
> meeting to watch the Super Bowl. I'm feeling pretty good, all
told, and
> am very committed to dealing with my problems; but of course she
can't
> be inside my head. We have three small children, and she's very
> dependant on me right now. > Best.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:esrTb.24782$M81.8958@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
repeat..
> >
>
> good reminder for all of us.......................imo, contributing
> to our spouses worry is NOT good recovery.
>

Sure makes one wonder about the good Dr. Tom Barrett.

Does he even KNOW what a fucking crackpot liar he's married to? Does he
know what an embarassment you are to yourself and to the program of AA?
Does he know you spend hours every day spewing your nonsense all over
Usenet? Has it ever occurred to him that current, past, or prospective
patients of his might just Google his name and see all the tripe you post?

Does he even care?

God help his patients if he's a loose enough gun to condone your actions.

[rosie]

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:C%sTb.13718$tl5.4993@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .
>


good morning to you too sweetie!
why start your day with such a crappy attitude?

you never answered me..........are those pictures of you, your wife
and child?

[Moonraker]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nvtTb.24810$M81.16708@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
> news:C%sTb.13718$tl5.4993@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .
> >
>
>
> good morning to you too sweetie!
> why start your day with such a crappy attitude?
>
> you never answered me..........are those pictures of you, your wife
> and child?
>
>
Just turning on the computer and seeing more drivel from you would be enough
to ruin anybody's day.

Why don't you ever answer direct questions instead of changing the subject?

[rosie]

> > "Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
> > news:C%sTb.13718$tl5.4993@bignews1.bellsouth.net.. .

> >
> > you never answered me..........are those pictures of you, your
wife
> > and child?


enquiring minds, and all that!
:)

[Kai]

Robert McGregor wrote:
> I'm guessing if you stick around and
> contribute occasionally, you might find more peers here than you
> imagined.
>
> Bob

Thanks! I hope so, and I will.


Kai

[Kai]

Ron wrote:

>
> Seems like an appropriate enough forum; 'recovery' would include
> spouses, and it's not 'recoverers' (is that a word?)..
>
> I, for one, wouldn't mind hearing the other side of the story. Well, I
> already do from my wife, but not in the same way as from an independant
> party.

You are very kind, and this was also my hope in posting here. Ditto to
the info from my spouse. Sometimes an opinion from outside sinks in
better....


> She was pretty mad at me tonight for skipping my regular Sunday AA
> meeting to watch the Super Bowl. I'm feeling pretty good, all told, and
> am very committed to dealing with my problems; but of course she can't
> be inside my head. We have three small children, and she's very
> dependant on me right now. I have to keep reminding myself about things
> like that, or I take offence at her being upset, and then I get upset,
> rinse and repeat..
>
> Best.

Hey! I'll give it my first shot here! You're right about not always
(or ever, if truth be told) being in someone else's head. But from
my side, guessing at what was to come had become almost second nature,
and when meetings were skipped warning bells sounded. It takes time for
us to get used to not having to be on alert for trouble ahead. It's a
survival thing, don't you know. That's one of the things I need to come
to
grips with as well. I want to trust and have faith, but habits didn't
take
a short time to build, and it takes awhile to get the edge off the old
radar.
You're right, it can be a vicious circle, with no winners - thanks for
the reminder.

Kai

[Ron]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 17:33:12 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:

> I want to trust and have faith, but habits didn't take a short time to
> build, and it takes awhile to get the edge off the old radar.

Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the worst
aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building block.
That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No shortcuts
that I can see.

My wife is not going to put up with any more bullshit from me. That
sucks and makes me mad sometimes, but I think that overall it's a good
thing. I've heard a lot of people at meetings say things like "I'm
really grateful that <insert bad event here> happened, because it woke
me up." It takes some shaking up to clear the fog sometimes, it seems.
If my wife wasn't on my case about this - if I was on my own - it's a
virtual certainty I'd be drinking right now, rather than posting. By
making me choose, she has given me too much to lose.

But don't provide inner strength in the fashion of the referee's wife on
that Superbowl ad.. ;)

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie]

> Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the
worst
> aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building
block.
> That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No
shortcuts
> that I can see.
>


i remember when i realized that i had lost the trust of my husband
and my two older daughters, and yes, IT DID take some time for me to
gain that trust back!
but it DOES happen, so keeping doing "the next right thing", and
have faith!

:)

[Kai]

Ron wrote:

>
> But don't provide inner strength in the fashion of the referee's wife on
> that Superbowl ad.. ;)
>

(hangs head in shame) I didn't watch the Superbowl. Does that make me
un-American? Got a link for the ad so I know what to avoid? I usually
do like those ads
- "herding cats" from a few seasons back was a favorite of mine.
Twisted, I know.

Kai

[Ron]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:16:35 -0500, Kai <bgale@ccm.tdsnet.com> wrote:
> Ron wrote:

>> But don't provide inner strength in the fashion of the referee's wife on
>> that Superbowl ad.. ;)

> (hangs head in shame) I didn't watch the Superbowl. Does that make me
> un-American? Got a link for the ad so I know what to avoid? I usually
> do like those ads
> - "herding cats" from a few seasons back was a favorite of mine.
> Twisted, I know.

The first shot is of a referee standing poker-faced, while people are
screaming hysterically at him about a call he made. You can hear the
announcer's astonishment at his poise. They can't believe he can be so
unaffected.

The next shot shows him sitting expressionless on the couch at home with
his wife screaming at the top of her lungs right into his ear.

I have no idea what they were selling.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Kirk S]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_MCTb.10886$2h.7512@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the
> worst
> > aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building
> block.
> > That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No
> shortcuts
> > that I can see.
> >
>
>
> i remember when i realized that i had lost the trust of my husband
> and my two older daughters, and yes, IT DID take some time for me to
> gain that trust back!
> but it DOES happen, so keeping doing "the next right thing", and
> have faith!
>
> :)

Rosie,

My X lost respect and trust in me and it isn't always rebuildable. If the
foundation crumbles, the building cannot be repaired. It must be destroyed.
The more trust and respect she lost, the more I drank. I was afraid to be
honest about my feelings and as a result, the lies destroyed what we had.

No amount of personal inventory taking and attempting to make amends will
ever change that. She will not allow herself to trust me again and I
forgive her for that. Nor do I blame her. I would have trouble as well.
It is the one thing that I am having trouble forgiving myself for. <insert
appropriate self-criticism here>

I suppose we all have regrets, huh?

Kirk S. <16 days and the lessons keep comiing on strong>

P.S. I use a lot of AA jargon to describe what I believe is necessary for
good mental health. It is simply a way of wording that I remember. I've
spent a large part of my life blaming others for how I felt. No wonder I'm
full of anger and fear. I've believed that I have no control over my life.
It is no way to life, I can assure you...
>
>

[rosie]

i am sorry to read of your marital experience Kirk, but relieved to
read how you have dealt with it.........................you right of
course, there are many who's marriages are broken and cannot be
fixed.

and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
regret much anymore.
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_83.htm

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:x4XTb.19633$2h.11674@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:_MCTb.10886$2h.7512@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > > Yeah, I think (deservedly) losing my wife's trust has been the
> > worst
> > > aspect of all of this. That's a pretty fundamental building
> > block.
> > > That's just something I'll have to earn back, I guess. No
> > shortcuts
> > > that I can see.
> > >
> >
> >
> > i remember when i realized that i had lost the trust of my
husband
> > and my two older daughters, and yes, IT DID take some time for
me to
> > gain that trust back!
> > but it DOES happen, so keeping doing "the next right thing", and
> > have faith!
> >
> > :)
>
> Rosie,
>
> My X lost respect and trust in me and it isn't always rebuildable.
If the
> foundation crumbles, the building cannot be repaired. It must be
destroyed.
> The more trust and respect she lost, the more I drank. I was
afraid to be
> honest about my feelings and as a result, the lies destroyed what
we had.
>
> No amount of personal inventory taking and attempting to make
amends will
> ever change that. She will not allow herself to trust me again
and I
> forgive her for that. Nor do I blame her. I would have trouble
as well.
> It is the one thing that I am having trouble forgiving myself for.
<insert
> appropriate self-criticism here>
>
> I suppose we all have regrets, huh?
>
> Kirk S. <16 days and the lessons keep comiing on strong>
>
> P.S. I use a lot of AA jargon to describe what I believe is
necessary for
> good mental health. It is simply a way of wording that I
remember. I've
> spent a large part of my life blaming others for how I felt. No
wonder I'm
> full of anger and fear. I've believed that I have no control over
my life.
> It is no way to life, I can assure you...
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BQYTb.19817$2h.2276@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
> case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
> regret much anymore.

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.337271@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term
experience with
>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.
>i have however had to take several different meds as each once
finally
>"wears out" and i need to change.



"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.608669@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>

>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to
read
>about it!


"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WmE9b.246$eX1.98@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> i am quite frightened by the thought of taking another
drink...................

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[rosie]

robert,
what have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or THE
PROMISES?
--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hRZTb.19827$2h.4948@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> robert,
> what have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or THE
> PROMISES?

http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely
give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are
constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "

[rosie]

> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:hRZTb.19827$2h.4948@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > robert,
> > why have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or
THE
> > PROMISES?
>
> http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
> "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not
completely
> give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who
are
> constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "
>
>
>

this is what i posted:

> and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
> case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
> regret much anymore.
> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_83.htm


specifically:
If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will
be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new
freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to
shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we
will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we
will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of
uselessness and self-pity will disappear. We will lose interest in
selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will
slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.
Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will
intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.
We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not
do for ourselves.

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BS5Ub.29255$M81.10228@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:hRZTb.19827$2h.4948@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > robert,
> > > why have your quoted posts of mine to do with regrets? and/or
> THE
> > > PROMISES?
> >
> > http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
> > "Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not
> completely
> > give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who
> are
> > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. "
> >
> >
> >
>
> this is what i posted:
>
> > and YES, i believe your right, we all do have regrets, but in my
> > case, THE PROMISES have come true in my life and i don't really
> > regret much anymore.
> > http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_83.htm
>
>
> specifically:
> If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will
> be amazed before we are half way through. We are going to know a new
> freedom and a new happiness.


Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity.

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

>We will not regret the past nor wish to
> shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity and we
> will know peace.

"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.608669@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>

>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to
read
>about it!

> We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not
> do for ourselves.
>
"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d_rZa.76641$7O4.1782289@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> chronic depression, DOES NOT lift.
> by definition: "it is always there".

[rosie]

>
> Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
> restore us to sanity.
>


this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
i have been restored.

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> >
> > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
> > restore us to sanity.
> >
>
>
> this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
> i have been restored.

Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

JB

[JB]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves
could
> > > restore us to sanity.
> > >
> >
> >
> > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
> > i have been restored.
>
> Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking
?
>
> JB
>
Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)

I meant to say:

"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their opinions, I,
for one, would be grateful.

JB

[Kirk S]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvr95s$p6o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves
> could
> > > > restore us to sanity.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
> > > i have been restored.
> >
> > Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking
> ?
> >
> > JB
> >
> Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)
>
> I meant to say:
>
> "Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

Yes, most definitely...

To me, being restored to sanity means that I will no longer drink as a means
of dealing with my disappointments, resentments, rejections, unrealized
expectations, etc.

To me, it means understanding the Serenity prayer and applying to my
everyday life. I cannot change others, I can change myself, being able to
identify what I am up to comes from being honest and facing the things that
I am afraid of.

Today, I helped move some of my X's things out of my house. We had a long
discussion about our feelings and choices. She doesn't understand how I
could choose to drink over discussing problems. If choosing the short term
good feeling of being drunk over the connection with another human being
isn't insanity, please give me a definition of what that choice is.

I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It sucks!

Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>
>
> If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their opinions, I,
> for one, would be grateful.
>
> JB
>
>

[rosie]

>
> I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
sucks!
>
> Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>


kirk,
it is FEBRUARY, which is the second month of the year, and "around
these parts" a lot of meetings try to focus on the second step, and
there has been, as usual, much discussion about "the insanity" that
is referred to in that step.

this morning, after the funeral of a fellow alcoholic, who returned
to drinking, and died, the insanity seemed more understandable.
at one time, i felt that this fellow "came to believe", put the plug
in the jug, but did not change much else.
his life remained unmanageable and eventually living that insane
life he returned to drinking.

i knew in my early recovery, that i had to stop the behaviors that
prompted my need for "relief".................or i would drink again
too.

living in:
mad, sad, afraid, ashamed and hurt, is an example of the insanity
imo.....................

kirk, does that make sense to you at all?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aJbUb.20385$2h.2613@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvr95s$p6o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than
ourselves
> > could
> > > > > restore us to sanity.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.

> > > > i have been restored.
> > >
> > > Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
drinking
> > ?
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)If choosing the
short term
> good feeling of being drunk over the connection with another human
being
> isn't insanity, please give me a definition of what that choice
is.
>
> I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
sucks!
>
> Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>

> >
> > I meant to say:
> >
> > "Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
drinking ?
>
> Yes, most definitely...
>
> To me, being restored to sanity means that I will no longer drink
as a means
> of dealing with my disappointments, resentments, rejections,
unrealized
> expectations, etc.
>
> To me, it means understanding the Serenity prayer and applying to
my
> everyday life. I cannot change others, I can change myself, being
able to
> identify what I am up to comes from being honest and facing the
things that
> I am afraid of.
>
> Today, I helped move some of my X's things out of my house. We
had a long
> discussion about our feelings and choices. She doesn't understand
how I
> could choose to drink over discussing problems. > >
> > If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their
opinions, I,
> > for one, would be grateful.
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TreUb.26411$sd.8431@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i knew in my early recovery, that i had to stop the behaviors that
> prompted my need for "relief".................or i would drink again
> too.
>
> living in:
> mad, sad, afraid, ashamed and hurt, is an example of the insanity
> imo.....................


From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ZPSl5.19140$E05.340458@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to
>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that dosage?
>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[Kirk S]

" rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TreUb.26411$sd.8431@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
> sucks!
> >
> > Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>
>
>
> kirk,
> it is FEBRUARY, which is the second month of the year, and "around
> these parts" a lot of meetings try to focus on the second step, and
> there has been, as usual, much discussion about "the insanity" that
> is referred to in that step.

I attempted to describe my own insanity. Choices that, to any normal
person, would probably seen pretty insane.

>
> this morning, after the funeral of a fellow alcoholic, who returned
> to drinking, and died, the insanity seemed more understandable.
> at one time, i felt that this fellow "came to believe", put the plug
> in the jug, but did not change much else.

I am sorry for the loss of someone you knew. Evidently, he didn't believe
it applied to him or simply didn't believe he needed to change.

> his life remained unmanageable and eventually living that insane
> life he returned to drinking.
>
> i knew in my early recovery, that i had to stop the behaviors that
> prompted my need for "relief".................or i would drink again
> too.

To me, that means that "I" am the problem, the alcohol is simply a symptom.
This means that I must change.

>
> living in:
> mad, sad, afraid, ashamed and hurt, is an example of the insanity
> imo.....................
>
> kirk, does that make sense to you at all?

My point is that I must not try to escape my feelings or avoid them. I am
not living in them or holding onto them. I feel sad and embrace the feeling
instead of trying to escape it. This means that I accept how I feel and am
willing to experience it. It means that I will find a positive behavior to
deal with it. Writing down how I feel, is very positive for me. Normally,
I would just sit and let it eat at me. This is choosing a different
behavior that allows me to move past it. Is it really "living in" something
to allow it to happen? If your dog/cat dies and you are sad, isn't this
just a normal reaction? If I choose to drink to avoid the feeling, all I do
is postpone the inevitable and make it worse. If I were to wallow in a sea
of self-pity, that would be one thing. To recognize and be aware of how my
choices directly brought me to where I am, is not IMO, living in insanity.
To expect the same choices to have a different outcome, is...

Ok... I'm done now... I feel much better... The sadness has passed.

Kirk S.

P.S. Is this really a good place for political name calling?

>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
> reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
> was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
> Congress to censure President Bush now at:
> http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g
>
>
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:aJbUb.20385$2h.2613@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bvr95s$p6o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bvr8qf$5so$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > >
> > > > " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:jB6Ub.29264$M81.12803@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than
> ourselves
> > > could
> > > > > > restore us to sanity.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > this step specifically addresses the INSANITY of alcoholism.
>
> > > > > i have been restored.
> > > >
> > > > Does not being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
> drinking
> > > ?
> > > >
> > > > JB
> > > >
> > > Bother. I think I've overdone the "nots" :^)If choosing the
> short term
> > good feeling of being drunk over the connection with another human
> being
> > isn't insanity, please give me a definition of what that choice
> is.
> >
> > I'm very sad... I know it will pass... I'm embracing it... It
> sucks!
> >
> > Kirk S. <day 16... full of fear, regrets and loneliness>
>
> > >
> > > I meant to say:
> > >
> > > "Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not
> drinking ?
> >
> > Yes, most definitely...
> >
> > To me, being restored to sanity means that I will no longer drink
> as a means
> > of dealing with my disappointments, resentments, rejections,
> unrealized
> > expectations, etc.
> >
> > To me, it means understanding the Serenity prayer and applying to
> my
> > everyday life. I cannot change others, I can change myself, being
> able to
> > identify what I am up to comes from being honest and facing the
> things that
> > I am afraid of.
> >
> > Today, I helped move some of my X's things out of my house. We
> had a long
> > discussion about our feelings and choices. She doesn't understand
> how I
> > could choose to drink over discussing problems. > >
> > > If anyone thinks it does and is prepared to share their
> opinions, I,
> > > for one, would be grateful.
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[rosie]

>
> To me, that means that "I" am the problem, the alcohol is simply a
symptom.
> This means that I must change.
>


that is what it means to me too. i must continue my "new positive
behaviors" or i will return to my "old negative solutions"



>
> My point is that I must not try to escape my feelings or avoid
them.

good point and wise advise.



> I am not living in them or holding onto them.

imo, that is good!



> I feel sad and embrace the feeling instead of trying to escape it.
This means that I accept how I feel and am
> willing to experience it. It means that I will find a positive
behavior to
> deal with it.

imo, nice definition of good recovery!




>................. To recognize and be aware of how my
> choices directly brought me to where I am, is not IMO, living in
insanity.
> To expect the same choices to have a different outcome, is...

AMEN, AND WELL SAID!


>
> Ok... I'm done now... I feel much better... The sadness has
passed.
>
> Kirk S.

GOOD!




>
> P.S. Is this really a good place for political name calling?
>
> >
> >
name calling?
i believe that i do more than "call names"
helping to spread the word, to start change is very important to my
life, and who i am.

[Ron]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 23:25:55 GMT, Kirk S <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com>
wrote:

> I am sorry for the loss of someone you knew. Evidently, he didn't believe
> it applied to him or simply didn't believe he needed to change.

Hmm. No need to change. "Need to change *if*..." e.g. need to change
if I don't want to hurt myself or others, is what it basically comes
down to. I don't *need* to stop drinking, but I have to make choices.
That's what's driving me forward right now. I wish I could say I had
better motivations, but that's not where I'm at.

Ahh, screw it. Enough equivocating about step one already. I'm a
frickin' drunk. Time to beat the crap out of step two. I have to look
it up, wait a second...

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us
to sanity.

Oy. Step two sucks.

Talking about the death of someone's friend, and it turns into me, me,
me.. Sorry.

At this rate, a step every few months, I'll be sober for several years
before I finish. Maybe there should be 1200 steps.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 22:34:27 GMT, " rosie" <readandpostNOT@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>it is FEBRUARY, which is the second month of the year, and "around
>these parts" a lot of meetings try to focus on the second step, and
>there has been, as usual, much discussion about "the insanity" that
>is referred to in that step.

Since when did Step 2 mention "insanity"?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:22 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?

Absolutely. It's referring to the insanity outlined in the second
part of Step 1, the mental obsession with booze and inability to
handle life sober.

If "sanity" in this context is defined by simply not drinking, there
would be only 3 Steps: 1. admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2.
came to believe that quitting drinking would solve all our problems.
3. made a decision to quit drinking.

There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
life. And many people can do just this.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9410c8599a2081f859ed0fa4aba953ee@news.teranew s.com...
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:22 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?
>
> Absolutely. It's referring to the insanity outlined in the second
> part of Step 1, the mental obsession with booze and inability to
> handle life sober.
>
> If "sanity" in this context is defined by simply not drinking, there
> would be only 3 Steps: 1. admitted we were powerless over alcohol.
2.
> came to believe that quitting drinking would solve all our problems.
> 3. made a decision to quit drinking.
>
> There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> life. And many people can do just this.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Blue,

I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has given
me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace of
mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I know
that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for example,
whenever life gets me down.

I would welcome yours and others' comments.

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvuv6e$9q6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has
given
> me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
> restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace
of
> mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I know
> that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
> example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
> state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for example,
> whenever life gets me down.
>
> I would welcome yours and others' comments.
>
> JB
>

Given that peace of mind can represent stupidity, apathy, and
complacency, why spend time analysing what you have not experienced,
at the expense of time that could be spent utilising what you could
experience?

Bob

[Ron]

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:53:15 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

> There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> life. And many people can do just this.

I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my best
opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what? And if
it is true that all this other stuff *is* necessary, whether I believe
it or not, then if I *don't* do these things, I'm going to be in a bad
place.

I really don't know if I can do this shit right, but I'm afraid of what
could happen if I don't do it right. Does this sound familiar to anyone
with some long term success? It would be encouraging to hear someone
say 'yes'. My primary exposure to recovery has been through AA, and I
have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20 years
sober." I find that discouraging. Of course, those people probably
don't go to AA meetings. I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy the
meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say I
won't do it, but I keep recoiling.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Christine]

Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of sobriety there.
minimal AA bashing, which I like. They have an email list as well as a chat
.... I like the chat. It helps me. I use it to supplement my meetings, this
group, and everything I'm reading ...

>I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
>admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my best
>opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what?

Right on. I'm not taking any chances. give it all to me, right now, I'll sort
it all out later.

Oh yeah, off to bed ;)

[Julie LaRue]

The "insanity" mentioned in the second step concerns the idea that WE could
EVER control our drinking
AND OUR thoughts that we could continue drinkning and expect differant
results than the one we were getting.
PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND SPRITURAL DEATH.
It has nothing to do with your state of mind (peace, frastration, hatred,
love) these are dealt with in later steps.
JULIE


"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvv050$10npkr$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvuv6e$9q6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has
> given
> > me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
> > restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace
> of
> > mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I know
> > that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
> > example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
> > state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for example,
> > whenever life gets me down.
> >
> > I would welcome yours and others' comments.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> Given that peace of mind can represent stupidity, apathy, and
> complacency, why spend time analysing what you have not experienced,
> at the expense of time that could be spent utilising what you could
> experience?
>
> Bob
>
>

[Julie LaRue]

CANT ALL OF YOU KEEP THIS SIMPLE!! Please give up all the mental
masterbation.
If this, and if that, is a waste of your energy. Get a sponsor, go to
meeting, work the frigging steps, and do some 12 step calls like Bob and
Bill did.
Julie.


"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9410c8599a2081f859ed0fa4aba953ee@news.teranew s.com...
> On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:22 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >"Does being "restored to sanity" mean more than just not drinking ?
>
> Absolutely. It's referring to the insanity outlined in the second
> part of Step 1, the mental obsession with booze and inability to
> handle life sober.
>
> If "sanity" in this context is defined by simply not drinking, there
> would be only 3 Steps: 1. admitted we were powerless over alcohol. 2.
> came to believe that quitting drinking would solve all our problems.
> 3. made a decision to quit drinking.
>
> There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> life. And many people can do just this.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvv050$10npkr$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bvuv6e$9q6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > I do not think that I have heard more than one alcoholic who has
> given
> > me the impression that they no longer drink, lay claim to being
> > restored to sanity. At this time I believe that when I have peace
> of
> > mind, that is the time when I am restored to sanity. Because I
know
> > that my peace of mind can be disturbed by people and events for
> > example, I think also that I should not consider "sanity" to be a
> > state I can be in permanently unless I take happy pills for
example,
> > whenever life gets me down.
> >
> > I would welcome yours and others' comments.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> Given that peace of mind can represent stupidity, apathy, and
> complacency, why spend time analysing what you have not experienced,
> at the expense of time that could be spent utilising what you could
> experience?
>
> Bob
>
Hi,

Tonight, thinking and writing about issues that I consider relevant
to my efforts to deepen my understanding of myself and also AA's
programme and also quietly reflecting on how far I've come since June
2003 when I started my journey in recovery, has helped me find peace
of mind. It disappeared earlier today, when I took my husband to an
out-patient's appointment during which his blood gases were checked.
We were told that he has go into hospital to see if they can do
anything to help him breathe more easily and in so doing reduce the
risk of him having a heart attack. He goes in on Monday with hopes
that all will be sorted by Friday. The news raised in me fears about
what is to come. As I'm writing this, those fears are under control.

All the best

JB.

[JB]

"Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vfFUb.12784$GO6.12521@newsread3.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> The "insanity" mentioned in the second step concerns the idea that
WE could
> EVER control our drinking
> AND OUR thoughts that we could continue drinkning and expect
differant
> results than the one we were getting.
> PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND SPRITURAL DEATH.
> It has nothing to do with your state of mind (peace, frastration,
hatred,
> love) these are dealt with in later steps.
> JULIE

Dear Julie,

In order to get your point across to me, there is no need to shout :^)

I think it possible that my views on this - and other issues - may
change over time. .

Thanks.

JB

..

[JB]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bvv84s$52u$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:vfFUb.12784$GO6.12521@newsread3.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> > The "insanity" mentioned in the second step concerns the idea that
> WE could
> > EVER control our drinking
> > AND OUR thoughts that we could continue drinkning and expect
> differant
> > results than the one we were getting.
> > PHYSICAL, MENTAL, AND SPRITURAL DEATH.
> > It has nothing to do with your state of mind (peace, frastration,
> hatred,
> > love) these are dealt with in later steps.
> > JULIE
>
> Dear Julie,
>
> In order to get your point across to me, there is no need to shout
:^)
>
> I think it possible that my views on this - and other issues - may
> change over time. .
>
> Thanks.
>
> JB

LOL. I didn't mean what is impled above. I meant to say that my
views on "sanity" may change over time.

JB
> .
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:b6FUb.227634$I06.2529278@attbi_s01...
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 00:53:15 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>
> > There'd be no need for inventory, amends, meditation, meetings,
> > sharing or anything else. We'd just quit drinking and get on with
> > life. And many people can do just this.
>
> I'd like some of that. I'm going through the motions, though I must
> admit, it's out of fear, not conviction. I want to give myself my
best
> opportunity. If I'm doing more than I have to, well, so what? And
if
> it is true that all this other stuff *is* necessary, whether I
believe
> it or not, then if I *don't* do these things, I'm going to be in a
bad
> place.
>
> I really don't know if I can do this shit right, but I'm afraid of
what
> could happen if I don't do it right. Does this sound familiar to
anyone
> with some long term success? It would be encouraging to hear
someone
> say 'yes'. My primary exposure to recovery has been through AA, and
I
> have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20
years
> sober." I find that discouraging. Of course, those people probably
> don't go to AA meetings. I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy
the
> meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say I
> won't do it, but I keep recoiling.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

Did not take me long at all to appreciate that regardless of whatever
had happened each day, I had proven myself able to live without
alcohol, one day at a time. What I did not know was how well prepared
I was for the long haul. Even bought a dictionary to ensure I did not
miss out on a critical aspect of long term recovery simply because I
had misunderstood a word, or two.

One of my first problems was the difference between what I was reading
in the AA Big Book, and contradictory gospels I was being subjected to
at AA meetings. I chose to stick with the least obvious
contradictions, the book.

Had lots of problems with the content of that book too, but, as I have
detailed here previously, I managed to take those steps and find the
long term recovery from active alcoholism I had once believed
impossible for types such as me.

With benefit of a decade plus of hindsight, I have discarded much of
what I initially took to be imperatives, as those who "have a life"
are apt to do. If I went to more lengths than necessary, I don't give
a stuff, 'cos at least, regardless of the fear exemplified in rosie's
"I will never be recovered" and endemic in AA, I "got it," and
eventually recovered.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"Julie LaRue" <Sissi_Julie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:QiFUb.12795$GO6.11702@newsread3.news.atl.eart hlink.net...
> CANT ALL OF YOU KEEP THIS SIMPLE!! Please give up all the mental
> masterbation.
> If this, and if that, is a waste of your energy. Get a sponsor, go
to
> meeting, work the frigging steps, and do some 12 step calls like Bob
and
> Bill did.
> Julie.

"I found that I had to exert every ounce of will and action to cut off
these faulty emotional dependencies upon people, upon AA, indeed, upon
any set of circumstances whatsoever. Then only could I be free" -
Bill Wilson http://www.aagrapevine.org/archive/billw/NextFrontier.html

[rosie]

> With benefit of a decade plus of hindsight, I have discarded much
of
> what I initially took to be imperatives, as those who "have a
life"
> are apt to do.

implying that those who work the program AS SUGGESTED in the BIG
BOOK don't have a life?
why are those folks such a threat to you?
do you think HP cares how yours or my sobriety and serenity are
achieved?

imo, what you have robert, is a program that YOU taught
YOURSELF........................YOUR interpretation! in other
words, one alcoholic talking to himself!

you obviously spent time with the verbage in the book, and do
things like trip over the words RECOVERY and RECOVERED and continue
with your mental masturbation over it...........................

that's ok, if that masturbation is some "release" for you and if you
are happy, joyous and free than i am happy for you.



> the fear exemplified in rosie's
> "I will never be recovered" and endemic in AA, I "got it," and
> eventually recovered.
>
> Bob
>
>
>

another phrase you love to dissect.......................i was
taught, and accepted that my recovery is a daily reprieve.
i have NO FEAR if i am doing "the next right thing" my HP's will.
(on a daily basis) and for this, i use the aid of a sponsor.

i have what is called a HEALTHY FEAR of relapse, i see it happen to
others, and KNOW that i am not exempt, if i stop doing WHAT WORKS
FOR ME.
i am comfortable with this!

maybe when you've been around a little longer you will
understand..................KEEP COMING BACK HON!

and do what works for you now robert........................

[rosie]

>.................. My primary exposure to recovery has been
through AA, and I
> have yet to hear anyone say "Well, I did things my way, and I'm 20
years
> sober."


LOL!
i'm quite sure you won't..................unless its someone who
just came back from a relapse, and he's sharing what he did wrong.
that happens all the time!


> I don't hate AA - in fact I really enjoy the
> meetings - but sponsors and steps weird me out. That's not to say
I
> won't do it, but I keep recoiling.


ron,
i recoiled from a lot of suggestions, but i managed to do them
anyway, because "where i came from" was so much worse than any
changes, i was asked to make.
rosie

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nCMUb.27195$2h.12132@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> > With benefit of a decade plus of hindsight, I have discarded much
> of
> > what I initially took to be imperatives, as those who "have a
> life"
> > are apt to do.
>
> implying that those who work the program AS SUGGESTED in the BIG
> BOOK don't have a life?

Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might rattle
your chains though.


> why are those folks such a threat to you?

Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me? Projecting your
fear I suppose.

> do you think HP cares how yours or my sobriety and serenity are
> achieved?

Precisely who, other than another of your delusions, is HP?

>
> imo, what you have robert, is a program that YOU taught
> YOURSELF........................YOUR interpretation! in other
> words, one alcoholic talking to himself!

I talked to countless alcoholics, took responsibility for my own
recovery, and am proud of that achievemnt.


>
> you obviously spent time with the verbage in the book, and do
> things like trip over the words RECOVERY and RECOVERED and continue
> with your mental masturbation over it...........................

hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't it:)

>
> that's ok, if that masturbation is some "release" for you and if you
> are happy, joyous and free than i am happy for you.

Who is masturbating here?

>
>
>
> > the fear exemplified in rosie's
> > "I will never be recovered" and endemic in AA, I "got it," and
> > eventually recovered.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
>
> another phrase you love to dissect.......................i was
> taught, and accepted that my recovery is a daily reprieve.

You are doing the dissecting!


> i have NO FEAR if i am doing "the next right thing" my HP's will.
> (on a daily basis) and for this, i use the aid of a sponsor.
> i have what is called a HEALTHY FEAR of relapse, i see it happen to
> others, and KNOW that i am not exempt, if i stop doing WHAT WORKS
> FOR ME.
> i am comfortable with this!


Of course you have to pretend you are comfortable with that endemic
fear, and your associated pills.

>
> maybe when you've been around a little longer you will
> understand..................KEEP COMING BACK HON!

Obviously your post indicates I understand more than you can cope
with.


>
> and do what works for you now robert........................


It's druggies like you that are regularly precluded from that freedom.

Bob

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ZPSl5.19140$E05.340458@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to
>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that dosage?
>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
Message-ID: <A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[rosie]

"Christine" <ctbean3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040206000115.22865.00001469@mb-m04.aol.com...
> Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of sobriety
there.
> minimal AA bashing, which I like.


christine,
are you finding LIFERING to be a better fit for you than AA was?

[rosie]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c006hh$uenc5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might
rattle
> your chains though.
>
>


rattle my chains?
NOPE!
as i indicated in my post, i expect nothing from you.



> > why are those folks such a threat to you?
>
> Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me?

your behavior!
google yourself robert.......................its self explanatory.






>........................ am proud of that achievemnt.


you should be proud of your sobriety, IF it works for you.




>

>
> hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't
it:)
>

again robert, NOPE!
you don't have the power to "piss me off" unless i give it to you.


KEEP COMING BACK!
rosie

[Kirk S]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e%NUb.27247$2h.19935@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c006hh$uenc5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might
> rattle
> > your chains though.
> >
> >
>
>
> rattle my chains?
> NOPE!
> as i indicated in my post, i expect nothing from you.
>
>
>
> > > why are those folks such a threat to you?
> >
> > Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me?
>
> your behavior!
> google yourself robert.......................its self explanatory.
>
>

How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There seems to be a lot
of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get out. The
punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.

I humbly offer my services as referee...

Kirk S.
>
>
>
>
> >........................ am proud of that achievemnt.
>
>
> you should be proud of your sobriety, IF it works for you.
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> >
> > hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't
> it:)
> >
>
> again robert, NOPE!
> you don't have the power to "piss me off" unless i give it to you.
>
>
> KEEP COMING BACK!
> rosie
>
>
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e%NUb.27247$2h.19935@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c006hh$uenc5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Not at all, it's you that is saying that. Thought my post might
> rattle
> > your chains though.


> rattle my chains?
> NOPE!
> as i indicated in my post, i expect nothing from you.


Expecting nothing from me has no bearing at all on the evidence that
your chains were rattled.

> > > why are those folks such a threat to you?
> >
> > Why on earth would you think anyone is a threat to me?
>
> your behavior!
> google yourself robert.......................its self explanatory.

My behavior? I answered a request here, as I often do. Once again your
proclamation is out of context.

> >........................ am proud of that achievemnt.
>
>
> you should be proud of your sobriety, IF it works for you.

Once again your proclamation is out of context. I did the work and
apparantly much to your dismay, took the suggested steps. Sobriety is
the result

> >
> > hahahaha, that there are differences pisses you right off, don't
> it:)
> >
>
> again robert, NOPE!
> you don't have the power to "piss me off" unless i give it to you.

Once again your proclamation is out of context. It's obviously the
differences that piss you off, as distinct from any power of mine.

Since you arrived here, you have barely proved capable of rudimentary
communication, mixed in with prolific proclamation. Nothing has
changed.

Bob

Bob

[rosie]

> How about a sponsored boxing match between you two?




kirk,
did you ever hear this expression?



Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
pig.

- Mark Twain




well, ROBERT is my own personal pig!

[Robert McGregor]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:MgOUb.56749$sd.25062@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There seems to
be a lot
> of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get out.
The
> punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.
>
> I humbly offer my services as referee...
>

Kirk, the punches started long before you arrived here, and given
rosie came here pretending superiority to this group, they will
probably continue long after I've gone.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8BOUb.27273$2h.12434@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two?
>
>
>
>
> kirk,
> did you ever hear this expression?
>
>
>
> Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
> pig.
>
> - Mark Twain
>
>
>
>
> well, ROBERT is my own personal pig!
>
From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>

Message-ID: <%5RSa.31831$6a3.482926@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

************************************************** *********
Twenty-Four Hours A Day

A.A. Thought For The Day

If we feel the need of saying something to put another member
on the
right track, we should try to say it with understanding and
sympathy, not with a critical attitude. We should keep
everything
out in the open and aboveboard. The A.A. program is wonderful,
but
we must really follow it. We must all pull together or we'll
all be
sunk. We enjoy the privilege of being associated with A.A.
and we
are entitled to all its benefits. But gossip and criticism are
not
tolerance, and tolerance is an A.A. principle that is
absolutely
necessary to group unity. Am I truly tolerant of all my
group's
members?

[rosie]

that's great christine!


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to censure the President -- to formally
reprimand him for his betrayal of the nation's trust. If ever there
was a time to use this function, it is now. Join the call for
Congress to censure President Bush now at:
http://www.moveon.org/censure/?id=-1555727-LwxVozqbsXUubaCq5RHn6g



"Christine" <ctbean3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040206110042.28446.00001439@mb-m15.aol.com...
> >> Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of
sobriety
> >there.
> >> minimal AA bashing, which I like.
> >
> >
> >christine,
> >are you finding LIFERING to be a better fit for you than AA was?
>
> Was? Perhaps you mean "is" ... no, Rosie, it's not a "better"
fit, it's a
> complementary fit. Like I said in my post, I use it to supplement
my
> membership in AA ... just like I use this newsgroup. The more
sober people I
> can surround myself with, the better, IMO. There are many great
people there
> ... like I said, I like the chat. With my crazy work schedule,
sometimes it is
> hard to get in contact with people, and the instant gratification
can be
> lacking here, so I hop over there and get some nice, sober
"conversation".
>
> -Christine

[Christine]

>> Ron, you should check out unhooked.com there's a lot of sobriety
>there.
>> minimal AA bashing, which I like.
>
>
>christine,
>are you finding LIFERING to be a better fit for you than AA was?

Was? Perhaps you mean "is" ... no, Rosie, it's not a "better" fit, it's a
complementary fit. Like I said in my post, I use it to supplement my
membership in AA ... just like I use this newsgroup. The more sober people I
can surround myself with, the better, IMO. There are many great people there
.... like I said, I like the chat. With my crazy work schedule, sometimes it is
hard to get in contact with people, and the instant gratification can be
lacking here, so I hop over there and get some nice, sober "conversation".

-Christine

[JB]

" rosie" <readandpostNO-NO@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8BOUb.27273$2h.12434@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two?
>
> kirk,
> did you ever hear this expression?
>
> Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
> pig.
>
> - Mark Twain

> well, ROBERT is my own personal pig!

Extract from ROSIE (tbarrett@ameritech.net) 16th April 1998

" don't call people names! i try not to be a "sewer mouth"! i try
to treat others well, and i don't fit in with you or your
kind............thats ok with me, always has been, because i would
rather not be associated with folks like you.
THIS IS A SUPPORT GROUP, AND SUPPORT STARTS WITH KINDNESS !
IN MY OPINION !
ROSIE
---------

Extract from ROSIE (tbarrett@ameritech.net) 18th April 1998

"i would not stoop so low as to call people names, and deliberately
try to hurt their feelings!
READ AND POST,
ROSIE
SUPPORT GROUPS, SHOULD BE SUPPORTIVE !!!!!

----------

Extract from rosie read and post (readandpost@yahoo.com) 23rd Nov
2003

"detox IS the first step in being sober, and sometimes PROFESSIONAL
HELP with detox is very necessary. i believe that if this little
group of malcontents would agree to be detoxed, this might be a more
productive newsgroup, with a whole lot less name calling.(good luck
getting them to hand over their sleeping pills and their booze!)

------

Extract from: rosie read and post (readandpost@yahoo.com) 5th Dec 2003

" I communicate with many, many wonderful recovering (alcohol, drugs,
sugar, nicotine)folks everyday......................
those few of you who continue to look for arguments, call names, and
attempt to sabotage others, really do not have ANYTHING i would
call recovery. is that judgmental? yes, i know that it is, and i feel
no guilt about it!"

-------

[Kirk S]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c00d6o$117pgl$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:MgOUb.56749$sd.25062@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > How about a sponsored boxing match between you two? There seems to
> be a lot
> > of pent up energy (anger, sexuality, etc.) that needs to get out.
> The
> > punches just seem to keep flying on both sides.
> >
> > I humbly offer my services as referee...
> >
>
> Kirk, the punches started long before you arrived here, and given
> rosie came here pretending superiority to this group, they will
> probably continue long after I've gone.
>
> Bob
>
>
Well, as long as it is good natured and no one gets hurt... It just seems
counter productive to resort to name calling, etc. when the purpose is to
provide a "safe haven" for people that want to share their views and
experiences.

Depending upon my mood, I can take a lot of abuse or have a single statement
set me off. I take exception to the political statement used as a signature
and feel this is not the place to be "Bush-bashing".

I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage in my head.

Thanks to all and have a great weekend.

Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>
>

[Moonraker]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:zw7Vb.42537$M81.23798@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> Well, as long as it is good natured and no one gets hurt... It just seems
> counter productive to resort to name calling, etc. when the purpose is to
> provide a "safe haven" for people that want to share their views and
> experiences.

When Jesus took a whip and chased the money changers out of the temple, was
"that" counter-productive? When lying trolls like Rosemary Barrett continue
to pollute newsgroups, there will be those who are gonna "whup" her.

>
> Depending upon my mood, I can take a lot of abuse or have a single
statement
> set me off. I take exception to the political statement used as a
signature
> and feel this is not the place to be "Bush-bashing".

If it were "only" her signature.

>
> I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage in my
head.

let 'er rip. Tis OK.

>
> Thanks to all and have a great weekend.
>
> Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>
> >
>
>

[rosie]

kirk,
you don't want to see a boxing match between robert and
i..................with our age difference, it just wouldn't be
fair, i don't want to hurt him!
;)

roberts comment about me coming in here with a SUPERIOR ATTITUDE is
just another one of his delusions, that he insists on sharing, over
and over...................

his problem is, he can't deal with a women who doesn't back down,
has more sober time, and isn't impressed with him!
he follows me around like a puppy!


>
> I'm having a rough week, so posting helps me get out the garbage
in my head.
>
> Thanks to all and have a great weekend.
>
> Kirk S. <gee, has it been twenty days already?>


i hope the rest of your week, goes a little easier for you and
CONGRATS on your twenty days!




--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Congress has the power to ce