Having a rough day...

[Kirk S]

Hi all,

I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any suggestions on
dealing with it.

My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after talking with
her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of rejection
and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself for the
mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it. Actually, I'm
more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get back
together and having that hope smashed to pieces.

We were together 12 years and I'm pretty down. I understand that it is
normal to grieve the loss. I'm not even interested in drinking to escape it
because I must go through it to get past it. Being unwilling to discuss
problems and choosing to drink got me here. Now, I just need to find a way
to get out of the dark place my mind is. It doesn't hurt as bad as when my
father died yet the fact that I am being left by someone that "loved" me is
harder to deal with.

Thanks to all for your support...

Kirk S. <twelve days and all is not well in mudville...>

P.S. Thanks for listening to me whine... I can't choose to stay this way
very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.

[Robert McGregor]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> I can't choose to stay this way
> very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.
>

Perhaps rational recovery is only suitable for really rational people.

Bob

kirk,
have you found a support group that you like?
either FACE TO FACE, or email?
(i think i read that you don't like AA?)

a group at this time could probably be a great help to you!
i am sorry that you are in this much pain, and of course, you are
right to note that it is probably grieving that you are doing.

(((((((((((((kirk))))))))))))))))))))))

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any
suggestions on
> dealing with it.
>
> My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
> relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after
talking with
> her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of
rejection
> and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself
for the
> mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it.
Actually, I'm
> more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get
back
> together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
>
> We were together 12 years and I'm pretty down. I understand that
it is
> normal to grieve the loss. I'm not even interested in drinking to
escape it
> because I must go through it to get past it. Being unwilling to
discuss
> problems and choosing to drink got me here. Now, I just need to
find a way
> to get out of the dark place my mind is. It doesn't hurt as bad
as when my
> father died yet the fact that I am being left by someone that
"loved" me is
> harder to deal with.
>
> Thanks to all for your support...
>
> Kirk S. <twelve days and all is not well in mudville...>
>
> P.S. Thanks for listening to me whine... I can't choose to stay
this way
> very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.
>
>

[Kirk S]

Bob,

Being rational has nothing to do with feelings. I'm trying to figure out
some constructive behaviors to apply my feelings to. My initial thought is
to behave like a child, call her up and scream at her. That is not
acceptable or productive.

Oh yeah, how is your suggestion helpfull? Actually, it got me out of the
mood long enough to write down what I'm feeling. And I'm not placing the
blame outside myself so I just have to figure out how to Dump it...

Besides Rational Recovery only deals with feelings of drinking. I drank to
avoid feeling bad (and because I LOVE it) and now I'm using my rational,
logical brain to deal with the.

Time is the big healer...

Kirk S. <twelve days and mighty Casey has struck out...>
"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bveust$rk7l5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > I can't choose to stay this way
> > very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.
> >
>
> Perhaps rational recovery is only suitable for really rational people.
>
> Bob
>
>

[Kirk S]

Rosie,

Thanks for the hug... I've got plenty of books to read and projects to keep
me busy. I must like misery or I would choose to do something better to
deal with the feeling.

Again, the problem of looking at things with logic and reason means that I
can't just sit an wallow in a sea of pity.

I just passed up a chance to go to a friends house and play pool, ping pong
and do shots, pot and beer.

The replies are just what I needed, thanks!

Kirk S. <12 days - glad to be not drinking, being sober will come later>
" <rosie>" <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fcDSb.5623$sd.3906@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> kirk,
> have you found a support group that you like?
> either FACE TO FACE, or email?
> (i think i read that you don't like AA?)
>
> a group at this time could probably be a great help to you!
> i am sorry that you are in this much pain, and of course, you are
> right to note that it is probably grieving that you are doing.
>
> (((((((((((((kirk))))))))))))))))))))))
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
> groans
> more loudly than an empty stomach.
> ..............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt
>
> http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any
> suggestions on
> > dealing with it.
> >
> > My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
> > relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after
> talking with
> > her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of
> rejection
> > and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself
> for the
> > mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it.
> Actually, I'm
> > more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get
> back
> > together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
> >
> > We were together 12 years and I'm pretty down. I understand that
> it is
> > normal to grieve the loss. I'm not even interested in drinking to
> escape it
> > because I must go through it to get past it. Being unwilling to
> discuss
> > problems and choosing to drink got me here. Now, I just need to
> find a way
> > to get out of the dark place my mind is. It doesn't hurt as bad
> as when my
> > father died yet the fact that I am being left by someone that
> "loved" me is
> > harder to deal with.
> >
> > Thanks to all for your support...
> >
> > Kirk S. <twelve days and all is not well in mudville...>
> >
> > P.S. Thanks for listening to me whine... I can't choose to stay
> this way
> > very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.
> >
> >
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RnDSb.20073$M81.11875@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

>
> Being rational has nothing to do with feelings.

Who told you that?

> Besides Rational Recovery only deals with feelings of drinking.

Oh, you've allowed an exception to your rule, that feelings of drinking are
rational?

How then is having a rough day an appropriate topic for this newsgroup?

Bob

[Kirk S]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvf258$s31st$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:RnDSb.20073$M81.11875@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >
> > Being rational has nothing to do with feelings.
>
> Who told you that?
>
> > Besides Rational Recovery only deals with feelings of drinking.
>
> Oh, you've allowed an exception to your rule, that feelings of drinking
are
> rational?

How do you get that? Feelings are simply feelings, making a rational choice
as to how you deal with them is my point. There is nothing rational about
feelings; good, bad, right or wrong doesn't apply. The chosen behavior has
the good, bad, right or wrong distinction. Actually, I misworded it. It
should have been thoughts of drinking. I don't believe there is an actual
'feeling' for drinking. It is a behavior chosen based upon feelings.

>
> How then is having a rough day an appropriate topic for this newsgroup?

I guess it isn't. You are free to stop responding whenever you wish. If
you want me to leave, just ask and I'll ignore you...

Thanks again... This day is looking up.

Kirk S. <12 days and all is well, sorta>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>

[neuro equipoise]

On - Sat, Jan 31, 2004, 1:18am (EST+5) kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com
(Kirk*S) wrote:

> I'm trying to figure out some constructive
> behaviors to apply my feelings to. My initial
> thought is to behave like a child, call her up
> and scream at her. That is not acceptable or
> productive.

That would be an example of addictive thinking, externalizing needs,
being unable to self-soothe.

Here's an excerpt quote and link below:


Soothing yourself begins with:

1- A decision to STOP all self-harm and self-abuse. This occurs
simultaneously with the realization/awareness that you are worthy of
loving yourself and of being loved and of loving others.

2- A willingness to do the work.

3- A determination to feel YOUR feelings.

4- Having reached the place where staying the same hurts more (and is
more fear-producing) than the changes that you need to make.

5- The ability to provide yourself with safety in the middle of the pain
(to be able to *KNOW* that the pain will not kill you and that it is
your pain and not some outside force/monster outside of you that has
control over you)

6- As you get to number six here after you've achieved 1-5 you will
begin to believe in yourself and find new ability to care for yourself.
Enter -- wanting to take care, self-care and not wanting to add to your
pain in anyway anymore.
7- An understanding of your wounded inner child and how much that child
needs you to set new, healthy limits and be a loving parent to him/her.
Nurturing this relationship with your inner child will build trust
within yourself as you continue to identify more who you are.

8- The realization/understanding that in order to have and maintain
healthy (unenmeshed) relationships it is vital that you take care of
your own needs and especially your own emotional needs.

9- A desire and readiness to let the past go and to work at living in
the here and now.

10- A willingness to "OWN" your own stuff. You need to learn how to own
your own feelings, think your own thoughts, be your own person, to not
blame others for what you feel, or what happens to you.

11- Taking personal responsibility for yourself always! Being an adult.

12- Setting and maintaining boundaries and responsibly holding those
boundaries. Differientiating who you are from who others are. Learning
to be inner-directed and not outer-directed. Validate yourself as
opposed to looking to others to tell you that you are okay.
What does one do to soothe themselves?

Soothing oneself may take on many different forms/activities for many
different people. The main thing about self-soothing, (whether you are
just beginning to experiment with or whether you are clearly past
self-injuring yourself etc) is that you don't consider self-harm or
acting out an option. Whether there are impluses to self-harm or to act
out or not you make a clear choice to NOT go there.

Once you have made the decision that you are not going to self-injure or
act out or "use" any of the many other "borderline" things one can do to
avoid self responsibility soothing yourself means essentially:

NOT HARMING YOURSELF

NOT ACTING OUT

NOT DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET INSTANT GRATIFICATION

LEARNING TO ACCEPT A DELAY OR LACK OF GRATIFICATION BEING KIND TO
YOURSELF

BEING UNDERSTANDING TO YOURSELF

BEING PATIENT WITH YOURSELF

LETING GO OF YOUR UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF OTHERS

LETTING GO OF EXPECTATIONS (AT ALL) OF OTHERS

LETTING GO OF TRYING TO CONTROL WHAT YOU FEEL OR DON'T FEEL THROUGH
TRYING TO CONTROL OR MANIPULATE OTHERS

DO NOT PUNISH OTHERS FOR THE MISTAKES (WRONG-DOINGS) OF PEOPLE IN YOUR
PAST

LEARN TO TRUST YOURSELF

DO NOT DEVALUE OR BE CRITICAL OF OTHERS OR YOURSELF

TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOW/WHAT YOU FEEL

BEING ABLE TO BE ALONE

LEARNING TO GIVE AND TAKE

LEARNING THAT IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE
INTIMACY YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GIVE SPACE AND TAKE SPACE

SURRENDER CONTROL AND LEARN TO GO WITH THE FLOW

TELL THE TRUTH -- LIVE THE TRUTH

BE GENTLE WITH YOURSELF IF YOU BACKSLIDE OR MAKE A MISTAKE

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/borderline_personality/24650

[Robert McGregor]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:jqESb.4653$2h.2286@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bvf258$s31st$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:RnDSb.20073$M81.11875@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Being rational has nothing to do with feelings.
> >
> > Who told you that?
> >
> > > Besides Rational Recovery only deals with feelings of drinking.
> >
> > Oh, you've allowed an exception to your rule, that feelings of drinking
> are
> > rational?
>
> How do you get that?

Just tweaking the imperfections of communication.

>Feelings are simply feelings, making a rational choice
> as to how you deal with them is my point.

My point is that rational choice is not an option for most "real"
alcoholics.

>There is nothing rational about
> feelings; good, bad, right or wrong doesn't apply. The chosen behavior
has
> the good, bad, right or wrong distinction.

or just different, as distinct from "moral" benchmarks.

>Actually, I misworded it. It
> should have been thoughts of drinking. I don't believe there is an actual
> 'feeling' for drinking. It is a behavior chosen based upon feelings.


Arguably, there is an actual feeling that urges drinking, it's called
craving, common to all real alcoholics, and choice is not an option.

Bob

>
> >
> > How then is having a rough day an appropriate topic for this newsgroup?
>
> I guess it isn't. You are free to stop responding whenever you wish. If
> you want me to leave, just ask and I'll ignore you...
>
> Thanks again... This day is looking up.
>
> Kirk S. <12 days and all is well, sorta>
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Kirk S]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvf4va$s2lk1$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...

<snip>

> Just tweaking the imperfections of communication.

Communication skills aren't my strength...
>
> >Feelings are simply feelings, making a rational choice
> > as to how you deal with them is my point.
>
> My point is that rational choice is not an option for most "real"
> alcoholics.

Can you define a *real* alcoholic? I really believe I fit. Choosing to
ignore the facts brought my right back to where I was fifteen years ago.
>
> >There is nothing rational about
> > feelings; good, bad, right or wrong doesn't apply. The chosen behavior
> has
> > the good, bad, right or wrong distinction.
>
> or just different, as distinct from "moral" benchmarks.

I tried to keep "morality" out of it. Most of us have a sense of what is
right and what is wrong.
>
> >Actually, I misworded it. It
> > should have been thoughts of drinking. I don't believe there is an
actual
> > 'feeling' for drinking. It is a behavior chosen based upon feelings.
>
>
> Arguably, there is an actual feeling that urges drinking, it's called
> craving, common to all real alcoholics, and choice is not an option.

Please explain how choice is not an option. A craving cannot move your hand
or make you go get your drug of choice. I've never really had a physical
compulsion to drink, more of a mental one to escape myself. I remember
quitting smoking and I can recall a physical need to smoke. I crave M&Ms
too however if I don't buy them, I won't eat them.
>
> Bob

I'm working on keeping an open mind here... Can you tell me where this is
leading or do I have to wait?

Kirk S.

[Kirk S]

"neuro equipoise" <NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7064-401B1468-466@storefull-3276.bay.webtv.net...
On - Sat, Jan 31, 2004, 1:18am (EST+5) kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com
(Kirk S) wrote:

> I'm trying to figure out some constructive
> behaviors to apply my feelings to. My initial
> thought is to behave like a child, call her up
> and scream at her. That is not acceptable or
> productive.

That would be an example of addictive thinking, externalizing needs,
being unable to self-soothe.

Here's an excerpt quote and link below:


Soothing yourself begins with:

1- A decision to STOP all self-harm and self-abuse. This occurs
simultaneously with the realization/awareness that you are worthy of
loving yourself and of being loved and of loving others.

2- A willingness to do the work.

3- A determination to feel YOUR feelings.

4- Having reached the place where staying the same hurts more (and is
more fear-producing) than the changes that you need to make.

5- The ability to provide yourself with safety in the middle of the pain
(to be able to *KNOW* that the pain will not kill you and that it is
your pain and not some outside force/monster outside of you that has
control over you)

6- As you get to number six here after you've achieved 1-5 you will
begin to believe in yourself and find new ability to care for yourself.
Enter -- wanting to take care, self-care and not wanting to add to your
pain in anyway anymore.
7- An understanding of your wounded inner child and how much that child
needs you to set new, healthy limits and be a loving parent to him/her.
Nurturing this relationship with your inner child will build trust
within yourself as you continue to identify more who you are.

8- The realization/understanding that in order to have and maintain
healthy (unenmeshed) relationships it is vital that you take care of
your own needs and especially your own emotional needs.

9- A desire and readiness to let the past go and to work at living in
the here and now.

10- A willingness to "OWN" your own stuff. You need to learn how to own
your own feelings, think your own thoughts, be your own person, to not
blame others for what you feel, or what happens to you.

11- Taking personal responsibility for yourself always! Being an adult.

12- Setting and maintaining boundaries and responsibly holding those
boundaries. Differientiating who you are from who others are. Learning
to be inner-directed and not outer-directed. Validate yourself as
opposed to looking to others to tell you that you are okay.
What does one do to soothe themselves?

Soothing oneself may take on many different forms/activities for many
different people. The main thing about self-soothing, (whether you are
just beginning to experiment with or whether you are clearly past
self-injuring yourself etc) is that you don't consider self-harm or
acting out an option. Whether there are impluses to self-harm or to act
out or not you make a clear choice to NOT go there.

Once you have made the decision that you are not going to self-injure or
act out or "use" any of the many other "borderline" things one can do to
avoid self responsibility soothing yourself means essentially:

NOT HARMING YOURSELF

NOT ACTING OUT

NOT DOING WHATEVER IT TAKES TO GET INSTANT GRATIFICATION

LEARNING TO ACCEPT A DELAY OR LACK OF GRATIFICATION BEING KIND TO
YOURSELF

BEING UNDERSTANDING TO YOURSELF

BEING PATIENT WITH YOURSELF

LETING GO OF YOUR UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS OF OTHERS

LETTING GO OF EXPECTATIONS (AT ALL) OF OTHERS

LETTING GO OF TRYING TO CONTROL WHAT YOU FEEL OR DON'T FEEL THROUGH
TRYING TO CONTROL OR MANIPULATE OTHERS

DO NOT PUNISH OTHERS FOR THE MISTAKES (WRONG-DOINGS) OF PEOPLE IN YOUR
PAST

LEARN TO TRUST YOURSELF

DO NOT DEVALUE OR BE CRITICAL OF OTHERS OR YOURSELF

TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR HOW/WHAT YOU FEEL

BEING ABLE TO BE ALONE

LEARNING TO GIVE AND TAKE

LEARNING THAT IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE
INTIMACY YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GIVE SPACE AND TAKE SPACE

SURRENDER CONTROL AND LEARN TO GO WITH THE FLOW

TELL THE TRUTH -- LIVE THE TRUTH

BE GENTLE WITH YOURSELF IF YOU BACKSLIDE OR MAKE A MISTAKE

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/borderline_personality/24650

Exactly what I needed...

Thanks!

Kirk S.

[Christine]

>
>I just passed up a chance to go to a friends house and play pool, ping pong
>and do shots, pot and beer.
>

Bummer. That's hard ... however, you made the right choice. Your pain would
be worse tomorrow.

I am sorry for your loss, Kirk. You seem like such a nice guy ... it's tough.
Give yourself a good cry and let it all out ... write a letter to her but don't
send it ... watch Titanic and say "hey, it could be worse! I could have been
Jack dating a stupid bitch that wouldn't share the floating door with me and
let me die in the freezing water"

Ha! Hope you are well, Kirk. Hang in ... and remember "this too shall pass"

And, honestly, saying the Serenity Prayer a lot may ease a bit of those bad
feelings.

All the best!
-Christine

[Robert McGregor]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:U1FSb.4661$2h.2238@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bvf4va$s2lk1$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> <snip>
>
> > Just tweaking the imperfections of communication.
>
> Communication skills aren't my strength...
> >
> > >Feelings are simply feelings, making a rational choice
> > > as to how you deal with them is my point.
> >
> > My point is that rational choice is not an option for most "real"
> > alcoholics.
>
> Can you define a *real* alcoholic? I really believe I fit. Choosing to
> ignore the facts brought my right back to where I was fifteen years ago.

"real" refers to the descriptions in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous"

I doubt you will see my *real* here, as that pertains to my own conclusions
which I have no need to proclaim or defend.

> >
> > >There is nothing rational about
> > > feelings; good, bad, right or wrong doesn't apply. The chosen
behavior
> > has
> > > the good, bad, right or wrong distinction.
> >
> > or just different, as distinct from "moral" benchmarks.
>
> I tried to keep "morality" out of it. Most of us have a sense of what is
> right and what is wrong.

Like Republicans, Democrats, Protestants, Catholics, Marxists, Semites, and
Qutbists?

> >
> > >Actually, I misworded it. It
> > > should have been thoughts of drinking. I don't believe there is an
> actual
> > > 'feeling' for drinking. It is a behavior chosen based upon feelings.
> >
> >
> > Arguably, there is an actual feeling that urges drinking, it's called
> > craving, common to all real alcoholics, and choice is not an option.
>
> Please explain how choice is not an option.

Loss of choice is, as far as I know, inexplicable.


>A craving cannot move your hand
> or make you go get your drug of choice. I've never really had a physical
> compulsion to drink, more of a mental one to escape myself.

Seems to me you were an alcohol abuser, as distinct from being an alcoholic.
If that is the case, your time in AA, given their inevitable obsession with
alcohol, arguably led you to your recent drunken escapade, rather than steer
you away from it.

>I remember
> quitting smoking and I can recall a physical need to smoke. I crave M&Ms
> too however if I don't buy them, I won't eat them.

There is a surplus of contradictory descriptions as to what the word "crave"
actually means. In my own experience, the physical cravings associated with
both alcohol and tobacco deprivation appear very similar in quality if not
quantity.

Just to muddy this quagmire a little more, soon after I stopped drinking, I
heard a description of food craving by a compulsive eater, "a physical
sensation in back of the throat" that I could relate to.

However the time sequence of emergent craving is the opposite, after a
drink, and before a smoke. Seems that, for me, the obsession/compulsion to
drink was much more powerful than the obsession compulsion to smoke.

>
> I'm working on keeping an open mind here... Can you tell me where this is
> leading or do I have to wait?

Although I don't pretend not to have a closed mind on many alcoholism
related specifics, I don't have a clue where this is/was leading to.

Communication is not a one way street. How's that for a proclamation;-)

Bob

[Kirk S]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bvfcrh$s1in0$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:U1FSb.4661$2h.2238@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:bvf4va$s2lk1$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Just tweaking the imperfections of communication.
> >
> > Communication skills aren't my strength...
> > >
> > > >Feelings are simply feelings, making a rational choice
> > > > as to how you deal with them is my point.
> > >
> > > My point is that rational choice is not an option for most "real"
> > > alcoholics.
> >
> > Can you define a *real* alcoholic? I really believe I fit. Choosing to
> > ignore the facts brought my right back to where I was fifteen years ago.
>
> "real" refers to the descriptions in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous"
>
> I doubt you will see my *real* here, as that pertains to my own
conclusions
> which I have no need to proclaim or defend.

*Real* to me means stopping by the bar for one or two and ending up there
till 3am w/o planning on it. *Real* means drinking to escape uncomfortable
feelings. *Real* means drinking so much you puke on your shoes and then do
it again the next day. *Real* means you continue to do this knowing where
it will lead. *Real* means you drink to get drunk every time you drink.
etc. etc. etc.
>
> > >
> > > >There is nothing rational about
> > > > feelings; good, bad, right or wrong doesn't apply. The chosen
> behavior
> > > has
> > > > the good, bad, right or wrong distinction.
> > >
> > > or just different, as distinct from "moral" benchmarks.
> >
> > I tried to keep "morality" out of it. Most of us have a sense of what
is
> > right and what is wrong.
>
> Like Republicans, Democrats, Protestants, Catholics, Marxists, Semites,
and
> Qutbists?

Politics and religion seem to be a common cause (and justification?) for
conflicts. Things like killing, stealing, dishonesty, etc. for us common
folk...
>
> > >
> > > >Actually, I misworded it. It
> > > > should have been thoughts of drinking. I don't believe there is an
> > actual
> > > > 'feeling' for drinking. It is a behavior chosen based upon
feelings.
> > >
> > >
> > > Arguably, there is an actual feeling that urges drinking, it's called
> > > craving, common to all real alcoholics, and choice is not an option.
> >
> > Please explain how choice is not an option.
>
> Loss of choice is, as far as I know, inexplicable.

I don't understand how you lose control over a concious (sp?) action such as
buying alcohol and drinking it. Do you mean it is impossible to not act on
the craving feeling? Like you would actually die without it? One thing I
do know is that for the first six years that I didn't drink, I never thought
of it, discussed it, joked about it, etc. After I got back into it, it
seemed to be the only thing I thought about. At times, I didn't know how I
was able to not drink before.
>
>
> >A craving cannot move your hand
> > or make you go get your drug of choice. I've never really had a
physical
> > compulsion to drink, more of a mental one to escape myself.
>
> Seems to me you were an alcohol abuser, as distinct from being an
alcoholic.
> If that is the case, your time in AA, given their inevitable obsession
with
> alcohol, arguably led you to your recent drunken escapade, rather than
steer
> you away from it.

In my day, I drank between 12-24 beers every day for 4-5 years. Skipping
meals, missing work, dwi's, etc. Actually, it never seemed to me that they
were obsessed with alcohol at any of the AA meetings I went to. Just making
sure you got to hear their story and how alcohol screwed up their lives. I
convinced myself that I was simply a problem drinker and now am convinced
that I am not. Once I take the first drink, I don't want to stop and won't
stop. Is that the same as can't stop?
>
> >I remember
> > quitting smoking and I can recall a physical need to smoke. I crave
M&Ms
> > too however if I don't buy them, I won't eat them.
>
> There is a surplus of contradictory descriptions as to what the word
"crave"
> actually means. In my own experience, the physical cravings associated
with
> both alcohol and tobacco deprivation appear very similar in quality if not
> quantity.
>
> Just to muddy this quagmire a little more, soon after I stopped drinking,
I
> heard a description of food craving by a compulsive eater, "a physical
> sensation in back of the throat" that I could relate to.
>
> However the time sequence of emergent craving is the opposite, after a
> drink, and before a smoke. Seems that, for me, the obsession/compulsion to
> drink was much more powerful than the obsession compulsion to smoke.

Agreed! Smoking a cigarette satisfied the smoking urge while a drink simply
makes the desire stronger for me. That seems like a pretty significant
difference. The people I know that drink responsibly are able to have a few
drinks and then stop. They want to stop and do.
>
> >
> > I'm working on keeping an open mind here... Can you tell me where this
is
> > leading or do I have to wait?
>
> Although I don't pretend not to have a closed mind on many alcoholism
> related specifics, I don't have a clue where this is/was leading to.

Even if it doesn't seem like it, I do appreciate your willingness to share
you opinion and experience.

Kirk S.

>
> Communication is not a one way street. How's that for a proclamation;-)
>
> Bob
>
>
>

[Kirk S]

"Christine" <ctbean3@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040130234850.13115.00000715@mb-m20.aol.com...
> >
> >I just passed up a chance to go to a friends house and play pool, ping
pong
> >and do shots, pot and beer.
> >
>
> Bummer. That's hard ... however, you made the right choice. Your pain
would
> be worse tomorrow.
>
> I am sorry for your loss, Kirk. You seem like such a nice guy ... it's
tough.
> Give yourself a good cry and let it all out ... write a letter to her but
don't
> send it ... watch Titanic and say "hey, it could be worse! I could have
been
> Jack dating a stupid bitch that wouldn't share the floating door with me
and
> let me die in the freezing water"

I'm not sure I could watch it again. There was only about 7 seconds of it
that I cared for. You can probably imagine what that part was. Anyway, I
have my share of problems just like everyone else. I wasn't able to be open
and share my feelings very well.

I'm not that nice of a guy. Remember, I'm a guy. Certain things go with
the territory...
>
> Ha! Hope you are well, Kirk. Hang in ... and remember "this too shall
pass"
>
> And, honestly, saying the Serenity Prayer a lot may ease a bit of those
bad
> feelings.

I cannot change - Them
I can change - Me
Wisdom - when I'm ready to give up my old ways

>
> All the best!
> -Christine

Thanks... Time is a great healer... Hope you are doing well and not being
hard on yourself. We are human beings, not machines.

Kirk S.

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any suggestions
on
> dealing with it.
>
> My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
> relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after talking
with
> her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of
rejection
> and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself for the
> mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it. Actually, I'm
> more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get back
> together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
>
> We were together 12 years and I'm pretty down. I understand that it is
> normal to grieve the loss. I'm not even interested in drinking to
escape it
> because I must go through it to get past it. Being unwilling to discuss
> problems and choosing to drink got me here. Now, I just need to find a
way
> to get out of the dark place my mind is. It doesn't hurt as bad as when
my
> father died yet the fact that I am being left by someone that "loved" me
is
> harder to deal with.
>
> Thanks to all for your support...
>
> Kirk S. <twelve days and all is not well in mudville...>
>
> P.S. Thanks for listening to me whine... I can't choose to stay this
way
> very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.
>
>
Hi Kirk,
I sort of understand where you are right now. Last Tuesday, my fiance
dumped me and, even though we have only been together for a little over a
year, it still really hurt. What I did was double up on meetings and did a
4th step inventory on the relationship. I definitely know my part in why
she dumped me. After 4 years of sobriety, I'm still very selfish and
self-centered. Like it says on pages 62-63 of the Big Book, that is the
root of all our problems. Doing the 4th step helped me to understand, but
it didn't take away the pain. Grief is a normal process associated with
loss and it always involves pain. The good news is that the pain won't kill
you. The only thing that really helped to ease the pain was to pray for
serenity and for her happiness. I know I can't really be in contact with my
ex for a while, but I am talking with my sponsor about the appropriate
actions that I should take as a 9th step toward her. I know that will clean
up my side and allow me to move on.

I'm really sorry that you are in so much pain right now, and you have
probably heard this before; but it will get better. Hang in there.

Kent L.

> >
> > How then is having a rough day an appropriate topic for this
newsgroup?
>
> I guess it isn't. You are free to stop responding whenever you
wish. If
> you want me to leave, just ask and I'll ignore you...


kirk,
imo your topic is as appropriate as any that are raised here in
araa....................talking about your pain, is EXACTLY how most
start to deal with it, and then get into some sort of recovery. so
go ahead and share!

you have asked a couple times whether or not you are an alcoholic,
what do you think?

i read in a later post from bob, his usual drivel about AA being the
one to convince you that you are an
alcoholic....................what total nonsense! (you will
eventually figure out bob and his "sour grapes" where AA is
concerned)

there are those who go to AA and find the solution to their
alcoholic problems, some use church, some use therapy, some use
other support groups, but once they have decided that they need some
help and they don't get it, it seems that their lives just continue
to spiral down........................

i believe that the majority of us (alcoholics)
die......................
kirk,
did you say that you were in recovery, with AA for fifteen years?
rosie

[Kirk S]

" <rosie>" <readandpostTAKETHISOUT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LINSb.6608$2h.4452@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > > How then is having a rough day an appropriate topic for this
> newsgroup?
> >
> > I guess it isn't. You are free to stop responding whenever you
> wish. If
> > you want me to leave, just ask and I'll ignore you...
>
>
> kirk,
> imo your topic is as appropriate as any that are raised here in
> araa....................talking about your pain, is EXACTLY how most
> start to deal with it, and then get into some sort of recovery. so
> go ahead and share!

Rosie,

Everyone has an opinion and I'm learning that it is ok if I disagree.
>
> you have asked a couple times whether or not you are an alcoholic,
> what do you think?
>
> i read in a later post from bob, his usual drivel about AA being the
> one to convince you that you are an
> alcoholic....................what total nonsense! (you will
> eventually figure out bob and his "sour grapes" where AA is
> concerned)

I enjoy the banter. It got me out of the bad place I was in. I work on
keeping an open mind on things. When I told people that I was an alcoholic,
they denied it. Just like it isn't my place to label someone else, they
don't have the right to (un)label me because they aren't comfortable with
it.
>
> there are those who go to AA and find the solution to their
> alcoholic problems, some use church, some use therapy, some use
> other support groups, but once they have decided that they need some
> help and they don't get it, it seems that their lives just continue
> to spiral down........................
>
> i believe that the majority of us (alcoholics)
> die......................
> kirk,
> did you say that you were in recovery, with AA for fifteen years?

I went to AA meetings and read the book for about the first six months.
After that, I felt no real urge to drink and simply kept doing the things
that kept me sober. The name it, claim it, dump it. I was that way for
eight years. About seven years ago, I started using weed again and two
years after that I started drinking. The old feelings of worthlessness
returned. I started lying again about things. I started externalizing the
cause and resentments grew. I can remember the thoughts and justifications
for them and it was pure insanity. I actually wanted my wife/girlfriend to
leave so I could drink in peace. My wish was granted.

Kirk S. <13 is my lucky number...>

> rosie
>
>
>
>

[Kirk S]

<klangsteiner410940@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mJednb1m389GBIbdRVn-uw@comcast.com...
>
> "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any
suggestions
> on
> > dealing with it.
> >
> > My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
> > relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after talking
> with
> > her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of
> rejection
> > and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself for
the
> > mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it. Actually,
I'm
> > more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get
back
> > together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
> >
> > We were together 12 years and I'm pretty down. I understand that it
is
> > normal to grieve the loss. I'm not even interested in drinking to
> escape it
> > because I must go through it to get past it. Being unwilling to
discuss
> > problems and choosing to drink got me here. Now, I just need to find
a
> way
> > to get out of the dark place my mind is. It doesn't hurt as bad as
when
> my
> > father died yet the fact that I am being left by someone that "loved"
me
> is
> > harder to deal with.
> >
> > Thanks to all for your support...
> >
> > Kirk S. <twelve days and all is not well in mudville...>
> >
> > P.S. Thanks for listening to me whine... I can't choose to stay this
> way
> > very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and unhealthy.
> >
> >
> Hi Kirk,
> I sort of understand where you are right now. Last Tuesday, my fiance
> dumped me and, even though we have only been together for a little over a
> year, it still really hurt. What I did was double up on meetings and did
a
> 4th step inventory on the relationship. I definitely know my part in why
> she dumped me. After 4 years of sobriety, I'm still very selfish and
> self-centered. Like it says on pages 62-63 of the Big Book, that is the
> root of all our problems. Doing the 4th step helped me to understand, but
> it didn't take away the pain. Grief is a normal process associated with
> loss and it always involves pain. The good news is that the pain won't
kill
> you. The only thing that really helped to ease the pain was to pray for
> serenity and for her happiness. I know I can't really be in contact with
my
> ex for a while, but I am talking with my sponsor about the appropriate
> actions that I should take as a 9th step toward her. I know that will
clean
> up my side and allow me to move on.

Kent,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Loss is a fact of life and dealing with
loss is another fact. I know that drinking will only make things worse. I
get too ME centered. Sometimes I'm like Agent Smith in the Matrix: "ME,
ME, ME and MORE ME". While it is easier to blame myself for all the
problems, I have to realize that the world is a two way street and none of
us exist in a vacuum.
>
> I'm really sorry that you are in so much pain right now, and you have
> probably heard this before; but it will get better. Hang in there.

Time is the great healer of all things. I didn't think I could live through
the pain of losing my father. I am still here. I drank a lot to dull the
pain. That was twenty two years ago and I still haven't dealt with it all.
I believe that when I don't deal with pain, it feeds itself and when another
painfull event occurs, the two multiply each other and makes it that much
more difficult to deal with.

Thank you and I'm sorry for your loss. We are all more alike than
different.

Kirk S.
>
> Kent L.
>
>

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:LkOSb.7029$2h.3815@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Rosie,
>
> Everyone has an opinion and I'm learning that it is ok if I
disagree.
> >


a VERY important lesson!
:)






> > i read in a later post from bob, his usual drivel about AA being
the
> > one to convince you that you are an
> > alcoholic....................what total nonsense! (you will
> > eventually figure out bob and his "sour grapes" where AA is
> > concerned)
>


> I enjoy the banter. It got me out of the bad place I was in.


i figured that "bantering " was what you were doing.

whatever works to help you over this emotional hump, i guess!
there are a couple folks in here who will willing "banter" with you!
LOL

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:LkOSb.7029$2h.3815@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


> ..............I went to AA meetings and read the book for about
the first six months.
> After that, I felt no real urge to drink and simply kept doing the
things
> that kept me sober. The name it, claim it, dump it. I was that
way for
> eight years.

you apparently found "what works for you"...................




>About seven years ago, I started using weed again and two
> years after that I started drinking.

along with quitting drinking, weed is another "no-no" for me.
i know that it will lead me "back to my drug of
choice..............alcohol"

i learned this early on, by listening to those that returned after
relapsing.
many relapses happen when we merely "switch" our drug, but it almost
always returns us to our original "drug of choice".


a return to drinking for me, would, if i lived through it, ruin
everything that i have come to appreciate in sobriety.

my relationship with my husband/best friend (25 yrs 2/14/04) my
relationship with my children, my career, my
friends.....................so i continue to do what works for me,
even on the days, that i DON'T WANT TO.
(yes, there are those days, even for old-timers)

i am glad your here and appreciate your sharing with us!

rosie

kirk,
do you see how your sharing of yourself has helped another?
THAT is recovery in action!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often
groans
more loudly than an empty stomach.
...............................Franklin Delano Roosevelt

http://www.coxar.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/










"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:puOSb.7128$2h.759@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> <klangsteiner410940@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:mJednb1m389GBIbdRVn-uw@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:aRCSb.20069$M81.18408@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any
> suggestions
> > on
> > > dealing with it.
> > >
> > > My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate
our
> > > relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and
after talking
> > with
> > > her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The
pain of
> > rejection
> > > and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving
myself for
> the
> > > mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it.
Actually,
> I'm
> > > more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we
would get
> back
> > > together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
> > >
> > > We were together 12 years and I'm pretty down. I understand
that it
> is
> > > normal to grieve the loss. I'm not even interested in
drinking to
> > escape it
> > > because I must go through it to get past it. Being
unwilling to
> discuss
> > > problems and choosing to drink got me here. Now, I just
need to find
> a
> > way
> > > to get out of the dark place my mind is. It doesn't hurt as
bad as
> when
> > my
> > > father died yet the fact that I am being left by someone
that "loved"
> me
> > is
> > > harder to deal with.
> > >
> > > Thanks to all for your support...
> > >
> > > Kirk S. <twelve days and all is not well in mudville...>
> > >
> > > P.S. Thanks for listening to me whine... I can't choose to
stay this
> > way
> > > very long, I can't stand it. It is unproductive and
unhealthy.
> > >
> > >
> > Hi Kirk,
> > I sort of understand where you are right now. Last Tuesday,
my fiance
> > dumped me and, even though we have only been together for a
little over a
> > year, it still really hurt. What I did was double up on
meetings and did
> a
> > 4th step inventory on the relationship. I definitely know my
part in why
> > she dumped me. After 4 years of sobriety, I'm still very
selfish and
> > self-centered. Like it says on pages 62-63 of the Big Book,
that is the
> > root of all our problems. Doing the 4th step helped me to
understand, but
> > it didn't take away the pain. Grief is a normal process
associated with
> > loss and it always involves pain. The good news is that the
pain won't
> kill
> > you. The only thing that really helped to ease the pain was to
pray for
> > serenity and for her happiness. I know I can't really be in
contact with
> my
> > ex for a while, but I am talking with my sponsor about the
appropriate
> > actions that I should take as a 9th step toward her. I know
that will
> clean
> > up my side and allow me to move on.
>
> Kent,
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience. Loss is a fact of life and
dealing with
> loss is another fact. I know that drinking will only make things
worse. I
> get too ME centered. Sometimes I'm like Agent Smith in the
Matrix: "ME,
> ME, ME and MORE ME". While it is easier to blame myself for all
the
> problems, I have to realize that the world is a two way street and
none of
> us exist in a vacuum.
> >
> > I'm really sorry that you are in so much pain right now, and
you have
> > probably heard this before; but it will get better. Hang in
there.
>
> Time is the great healer of all things. I didn't think I could
live through
> the pain of losing my father. I am still here. I drank a lot to
dull the
> pain. That was twenty two years ago and I still haven't dealt
with it all.
> I believe that when I don't deal with pain, it feeds itself and
when another
> painfull event occurs, the two multiply each other and makes it
that much
> more difficult to deal with.
>
> Thank you and I'm sorry for your loss. We are all more alike than
> different.
>
> Kirk S.
> >
> > Kent L.
> >
> >
>
>

[Gregg Fowler]

> "real" refers to the descriptions in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous"

Sounds like Kirk's description of his drinking fits AA's definition to a
"T". Why is it that a person's recovering without AA such a threat. Though
AA is certainly the largest recovery group, there is no evidence to show
that it is the most effective. Different strokes for different folks.
>
> I doubt you will see my *real* here, as that pertains to my own
conclusions
> which I have no need to proclaim or defend.
> >
> Seems to me you were an alcohol abuser, as distinct from being an
alcoholic.
> If that is the case, your time in AA, given their inevitable obsession
with
> alcohol, arguably led you to your recent drunken escapade, rather than
steer
> you away from it.

And what makes you the expert on Kirk's drinking. According to the
definition being a "alcoholic has nothing to do with drinking every day or
the amount drank, but with loss of control after a drink.

>
> There is a surplus of contradictory descriptions as to what the word
"crave"
> actually means. In my own experience, the physical cravings associated
with
> both alcohol and tobacco deprivation appear very similar in quality if not
> quantity.
>
> Just to muddy this quagmire a little more, soon after I stopped drinking,
I
> heard a description of food craving by a compulsive eater, "a physical
> sensation in back of the throat" that I could relate to.
>
> However the time sequence of emergent craving is the opposite, after a
> drink, and before a smoke. Seems that, for me, the obsession/compulsion to
> drink was much more powerful than the obsession compulsion to smoke.
>
> Bob

This isn't everyone's experience. That's why there are so many "recovering
alcoholics and addicts" smoking themselves to death. Actually, the reality
of craving is very similar for both. The craving for a cigarette begins
after smoking the last not before smoking the next. A person that hasn't
smoked craves a cigarette no more than a person that hasn't had a drink. For
a person that has been abstinent for a while from either one it is mental
obsession that brings a person to pick up the first drink or cigarette.

> Sounds like Kirk's description of his drinking fits AA's
definition to a
> "T". Why is it that a person's recovering without AA such a
threat. Though
> AA is certainly the largest recovery group, there is no evidence
to show
> that it is the most effective. Different strokes for different
folks.
> >
>

i don't know who your post is addressed to, but i would like to say:

DIFFERENT STROKES is what i believe also.
not everyone like or uses AA as their tool of recovery!
(that is just fine with me)

i have worked in the recovery field for the past ten years, and AA
was not the only tool recommended.

have a good one!

rosie

[neuro equipoise]

On - Sat, Jan 31, 2004, 12:11am (EST-1) kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com
(Kirk*S) wrote:

> I don't understand how you lose control over
> a concious (sp?) action such as buying
> alcohol and drinking it. Do you mean it is
> impossible to not act on the craving feeling?
> Like you would actually die without it? One
> thing I do know is that for the first six years
> that I didn't drink, I never thought of it,
> discussed it, joked about it, etc. After I got
> back into it, it seemed to be the only thing I
> thought about. At times, I didn't know how I
> was able to not drink before.


Research Quote:

"The Lure of the Sirens", - the ways in which some alcoholics "covertly
maneuver to arrange a slip"...


"The following chapter details nine "drinking scripts" Ludwig identified
in the course of his research, patterns of thoughts and attitudes that
tend to accompany and intensify craving. Ludwig notes that this kind of
thinking is hardly unique to alcoholics, but that it presents special
dangers for them given the possible severe consequences of acting on it.
He considers the scripts "private self-statements, a type of nonvocal
inner speech" that mediates between the intention to drink and the
actual act of drinking.

The scripts, which are vividly described and quite recognizable, include
"the escape script" (all I want is a little peace....); "the relaxation
script"; "the romance script"; the "to-hell-with-it script" (a personal
favorite); "the self-control script" (more popularly known as the "I'll
just have one--maybe two" script); and, for good measure, the "NO
control script": "Just as believing in one's ability to handle alcohol
intake is usually a setup for relapse, the attitude of not being able to
control cravings virtually insures it."

Having surveyed the distorted thinking that accompanies craving, Ludwig
turns his attention to "the mystery of craving" itself, in a chapter
that combines anecdotes about craving with an excellent and balanced
survey of cognitive-behavioral studies of craving, including research
into environmental cues, conditioned responses to emotional states, and
the highly individual nature of each alcoholic's personal "Pavlov's
bells". (It should be noted that Ludwig makes little attempt to deal
with the biology of craving, except to note that it increases markedly
if the craver actually drinks.) His ultimate point is that craving is
not a mysterious or uncontrollable event, that an individual can learn
to predict the likelihood of craving and to resist it, and that it
weakens and disappears if the alcoholic abstains for an extended period.

All well and good, but how exactly is this craving, drinking-thinking,
planning-for-relapse alcoholic going to be motivated to abstain for long
enough to weaken those cravings? And what techniques can she or he
possibly bring to bear against powerful cravings triggered by personal
cues and the seductive "logic" of the inner drinker whispering from the
favorite "drinking script"? I do not think Ludwig has done a
particularly persuasive job of answering the first question, but his
answers to the second are intriguing and useful.

Back on his own cognitive-behavioral ground, Ludwig spends the rest of
the book detailing ways of resisting temptations, and they are good
ones. He opens by pointing out that some commonly used thought-control
techniques are relatively ineffective. Direct counterpoint thinking,
"fighting a craving head-on", can fuel it. Resolving NOT to do something
can create more difficulties than it solves, as "The picture of NOT
doing triggers an image of doing what the individual is resolved not to
do...[but] individuals cannot visualize "NOT", so the image of drinking
may grow in intensity if you merely oppose it with the idea of "NOT
DRINKING." He suggests that you should instead picture a substitute
behavior every time the image of the unwanted behavior occurs to you.

Other "mind-control" techniques covered include "distraction",
"substitution", "thought-ignoring" and "thought-stopping,"
"postponement", "playing the thought through" and "immediate negative
conditioning". If some of these sound like methods you are already
using, they probably are: the advantage of Ludwig's presentation is that
he gives a clearly organized description of each one and notes its
strengths and weaknesses. He also discusses their similarity to Buddhist
meditation techniques for focusing concentration.

The nine "drinking scripts" from the earlier chapters are matched by
five "sobriety scripts" drawn from Ludwig's interviews with recovering
alcoholics. These are "the negative consequences script," the "benefits
of sobriety script", the "rationality script", the
"avoid-the-first-drink script", and the "prayer script". Again, you will
probably recognize some or many of these, but they are vividly detailed,
often in the words of the interview subjects, and you will probably find
ideas and phrases that will work for you."

http://www.unhooked.com/booktalk/ludwig.htm

>................. After I got
> back into it, it seemed to be the only thing I
> thought about.



reminds me of my last days/months/years of drinking............it
WAS all i thought, and talked about!

[Ron]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:37:13 -0500 (EST),
neuro equipoise <NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net> wrote:

> "The following chapter details nine "drinking scripts" Ludwig identified
> in the course of his research, patterns of thoughts and attitudes that
> tend to accompany and intensify craving.

Only nine?! That guy has no imagination. I could write a whole book of
them! :)

"It's a nice sunny day!"
"It's a cloudy crappy day!"
"My butt itches!"
etc.

> All well and good, but how exactly is this craving, drinking-thinking,
> planning-for-relapse alcoholic going to be motivated to abstain for long
> enough to weaken those cravings?

It's obvious in retrospect, but the most important thing for me was
simply realizing I had a problem. I'd be the first to admit I liked to
drink a lot. It took a minor shock (thankfully nothing worse) to make
me open my eyes. I'm a menace. My health, marriage, children, family,
job, innocent bystanders, etc. are all adversely impacted by the way I
drink. Maybe I always knew that, but I started to care. Perhaps this
is what the 'unmanageable' bit of step one means: not that you're
sleeping in a gutter, but simply that you have problems that you
shouldn't and wouldn't if you didn't drink the way you do.

Although I still feel like I'm struggling with AA's step one, maybe I
owned that step a while ago, and am simply getting hung up on semantics.

In any case, I didn't do a damn thing about my drinking until I realized
it was a problem. If I stop thinking it's a problem (not hard to do,
I'm afraid), then I'm in trouble.

> And what techniques can she or he possibly bring to bear against
> powerful cravings triggered by personal cues and the seductive "logic"
> of the inner drinker whispering from the favorite "drinking script"?

That's the $64 question. I'm actually a pretty healthy guy. I have the
kind of metabolism that lets me get away with a lot though. It's a
blessing and a curse. I can eat crap all day long and it doesn't show.
I do eat a lot of healthy food, but I also pound a lot of carbs and
sugar - in big lumps. If something as simple as changing my diet can
help mellow me out, I'm stupid not to try.

What about tea? Does tea have the same adverse affects as coffee? (Of
course there are many types of tea...)

Thanks again for your contributions.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 21:12:24 -0600, "Kirk S"
<kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote:

>I tried to keep "morality" out of it. Most of us have a sense of what is
>right and what is wrong.

Ah, but are you sure? Y'see, alcohol warps the perception of reality,
so an alcoholic sometimes feels the need to do things he ought to know
are wrong. They just "seem" right at the time. As such, his
behaviour can become irrational, antisocial, and sometimes even
dangerous. Drink can be a means of escaping this altered perception
so that the alcoholic no longer feels the need to act so irrationally.

It is for this reason that there is still a piece of knife blade stuck
in my ex-wife's kitchen worktop - which I put there whilst relatively
sober. It seemed the "right" thing to do instead of stabbing her with
it.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 00:41:42 GMT, "Kirk S"
<kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote:

>I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any suggestions on
>dealing with it.
>
>My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
>relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after talking with
>her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of rejection
>and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself for the
>mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it. Actually, I'm
>more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get back
>together and having that hope smashed to pieces.

Welcome to the reality of living sober :)

First things first. A relationship is not a priority here, even
though the need for an "ego boost" through love, co-dependency etc.
can feel very real. I was really incapable of maintaining a
relationship with anyone else until I'd started to learn how to
maintain one with myself.

So I would suggest focusing on recovery, changing the things you can
(stuff on the inside), improving your own self-worth without needing
to find it from another, and thus eventually becoming a quality
commodity on the dating scene ;)

It also takes time to heal, and that doesn't apply just to me either.
When I split with my ex-, she basically said we can never be on
friendly terms. Today we have a working platonic respect, with no
expectations of anything.

--
Blue Moon

[Debbie]

> Hi all,
>
> I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any suggestions on
> dealing with it.
>
> My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
> relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after talking
with
> her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of rejection
> and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself for the
> mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it. Actually, I'm
> more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get back
> together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
>

<snipped some>

Hey Kirk,

I'm new to this group, but I wanted to add my .02 cents worth. I had a
similar thing happen to me. The husband (married 10 years) had a girlfriend
and dumped me for her. I lost 30 pounds in 30 days (that's not a
complaint), so I was very wigged out about it at the time. Went to a psych.
She led me to see that it wasn't that he left me that I was so upset about,
he left me for someone else (it kinda bruised the old ego). The psych told
me the best revenge is self-improvement, so I went to college and lost
weight. I was still hurting, but I at least felt like I was in control of
me and doing things to improve myself, and to heck with him. He's just one
man on the face of the earth. If he doesn't love me, it doesn't mean I'm
unlovable. It just means *he* doesn't love me. If I were you, I would
look at myself honestly and think what part did I play and what part did she
play. She's not the only fish in the sea and you (most likely) will see
this as a positive later on when you're over the hurt. I did. It does get
way easier with time. Work out, go to school -- do something for you.

Debbie


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[Debbie]

:> Only nine?! That guy has no imagination. I could write a whole book of
> them! :)
>
> "It's a nice sunny day!"
> "It's a cloudy crappy day!"
> "My butt itches!"
> etc.
>

LOL. Haven't we met?

Debbie


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[Kirk S]

"Debbie" <Debbie_PrivateABC@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:101o9c29svat7ee@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm having a rough day today and just was curious as to any suggestions
on
> > dealing with it.
> >
> > My ex-girlfriend's New Years Eve resolution was to terminate our
> > relationship. I have been wanting to remain friends and after talking
> with
> > her, I understand why people don't after a breakup. The pain of
rejection
> > and resentments are tough. I'm having trouble forgiving myself for the
> > mistakes I made and her lack of support when I needed it. Actually, I'm
> > more upset with myself for holding onto the hope that we would get back
> > together and having that hope smashed to pieces.
> >
>
> <snipped some>
>
> Hey Kirk,
>
> I'm new to this group, but I wanted to add my .02 cents worth. I had a
> similar thing happen to me. The husband (married 10 years) had a
girlfriend
> and dumped me for her. I lost 30 pounds in 30 days (that's not a
> complaint), so I was very wigged out about it at the time. Went to a
psych.
> She led me to see that it wasn't that he left me that I was so upset
about,
> he left me for someone else (it kinda bruised the old ego). The psych
told
> me the best revenge is self-improvement, so I went to college and lost
> weight. I was still hurting, but I at least felt like I was in control of
> me and doing things to improve myself, and to heck with him. He's just
one
> man on the face of the earth. If he doesn't love me, it doesn't mean I'm
> unlovable. It just means *he* doesn't love me. If I were you, I would
> look at myself honestly and think what part did I play and what part did
she
> play. She's not the only fish in the sea and you (most likely) will see
> this as a positive later on when you're over the hurt. I did. It does
get
> way easier with time. Work out, go to school -- do something for you.
>
> Debbie

Hey, you seem really nice! Wanna have a cup of coffee?

Just kidding... or not? Too soon for me, anyway. I've never really been
out of a relationship for any length of time. This could actually be good
for me. <fake it till I make it!>

Thanks... I'll live through it and I feel different today. Yesterday seems
like a month ago. Gotta be willing to let go of the self-criticism and
realize that it just wasn't meant to be. I can't change the way she feels
and that is that. Kinda like being fired... Gotta look at it from the
other side. Ok, a little more personal than being fired...

Kirk S. <it's cold, grey and rotten outside and I'm doing ok...>
>
>
> ---
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>
>

[Debbie]

>snipped some from time to time>

> Hey, you seem really nice!

Some people tell me that. Others have different opinions. ;-)


>Wanna have a cup of coffee?

You nut. You're not too hurt over this. LOL.

>I've never really been
> out of a relationship for any length of time. This could actually be good
> for me. <fake it till I make it!>

Sounds like it will be good for you, Kirk. Look at it as a new adventure.
There are a lot of single women out there. Now you can have the the buffet
every night. Enjoy it!


> Gotta be willing to let go of the self-criticism and
> realize that it just wasn't meant to be. I can't change the way she feels
> and that is that.

That's the truth. You're on your way already, Kirk.


P.S. The end of my story is...the husband married the girl and she had
affairs on him throughout their 10-year marriage and they are now divorced.
I'm married to a great guy that I trust completely. Garth Brooks sang about
"Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers." One of my favorites.
>
> Kirk S. <it's cold, grey and rotten outside and I'm doing ok...>

I'm glad, really. Don't let a woman make you feel unloveable -- her loss.
Everybody has something to offer to someone. You just need to find *your*
someone.

Nice chatting with ya.

Debbie



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[Kirk S]

"Debbie" <Debbie_PrivateABC@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:101odi86gunaq00@corp.supernews.com...
> >snipped some from time to time>
>
> > Hey, you seem really nice!
>
> Some people tell me that. Others have different opinions. ;-)
>
>
> >Wanna have a cup of coffee?
>
> You nut. You're not too hurt over this. LOL.

Not true. Just in a joking mood today!
>
> >I've never really been
> > out of a relationship for any length of time. This could actually be
good
> > for me. <fake it till I make it!>
>
> Sounds like it will be good for you, Kirk. Look at it as a new adventure.
> There are a lot of single women out there. Now you can have the the
buffet
> every night. Enjoy it!
>
>
> > Gotta be willing to let go of the self-criticism and
> > realize that it just wasn't meant to be. I can't change the way she
feels
> > and that is that.
>
> That's the truth. You're on your way already, Kirk.
>
>
> P.S. The end of my story is...the husband married the girl and she had
> affairs on him throughout their 10-year marriage and they are now
divorced.
> I'm married to a great guy that I trust completely. Garth Brooks sang
about
> "Sometimes I thank God for unanswered prayers." One of my favorites.

Glad things worked out for the best. Ever notice the last place you look
for something is always where you find it?

Take care!

Kirk S.
> >
> > Kirk S. <it's cold, grey and rotten outside and I'm doing ok...>
>
> I'm glad, really. Don't let a woman make you feel unloveable -- her loss.
> Everybody has something to offer to someone. You just need to find *your*
> someone.
>
> Nice chatting with ya.
>
> Debbie
>
>
>
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> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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>
>

[Debbie]

>
> Glad things worked out for the best. Ever notice the last place you look
> for something is always where you find it?

Absolutely.
>
> Take care!

You, too!

I am new to this and I told the hubby about our conversation and he said
that in AA (his father went) that they say, "Come and let's have a cup of
coffee." So I think your post on having a cup of coffee went over my
head -- so here's to a cyber cup-o-coffee, Kirk. :-)
>
Debbie



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[Ron]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:11:19 -0500,
Debbie <Debbie_PrivateABC@hotmail.com> wrote:

> LOL. Haven't we met?

Maybe we went to different schools together...

--
AB5DB9CC

[Debbie]

> > LOL. Haven't we met?
>
> Maybe we went to different schools together...
>

Yes, that must be the connection...



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[Robert McGregor]

"Gregg Fowler" <totsobNOSPAM@NOSPAMnetzero.com> wrote in message
news:A_mdnSUzccPKXobdRVn-vA@comcast.com...
>
> > "real" refers to the descriptions in the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous"
>
> Sounds like Kirk's description of his drinking fits AA's definition to a
> "T". Why is it that a person's recovering without AA such a threat. Though
> AA is certainly the largest recovery group, there is no evidence to show
> that it is the most effective. Different strokes for different folks.

"Different strokes!" Jeez, aint that an amazing discovery! Have you issued a
press release yet?

> >
> > I doubt you will see my *real* here, as that pertains to my own
> conclusions
> > which I have no need to proclaim or defend.
> > >
> > Seems to me you were an alcohol abuser, as distinct from being an
> alcoholic.
> > If that is the case, your time in AA, given their inevitable obsession
> with
> > alcohol, arguably led you to your recent drunken escapade, rather than
> steer
> > you away from it.
>
> And what makes you the expert on Kirk's drinking. According to the
> definition being a "alcoholic has nothing to do with drinking every day or
> the amount drank, but with loss of control after a drink.

Suppose merely the same criteria that makes you an expert on my unclaimed
expertise, minus the qualifiers "seems" and "arguably."

>
> >
> > There is a surplus of contradictory descriptions as to what the word
> "crave"
> > actually means. In my own experience, the physical cravings associated
> with
> > both alcohol and tobacco deprivation appear very similar in quality if
not
> > quantity.
> >
> > Just to muddy this quagmire a little more, soon after I stopped
drinking,
> I
> > heard a description of food craving by a compulsive eater, "a physical
> > sensation in back of the throat" that I could relate to.
> >
> > However the time sequence of emergent craving is the opposite, after a
> > drink, and before a smoke. Seems that, for me, the obsession/compulsion
to
> > drink was much more powerful than the obsession compulsion to smoke.
> >
> > Bob
>
> This isn't everyone's experience.

Wow, given the qualifiers, "my" "for me" you are one original creative
thinker, aren't you


>That's why there are so many "recovering
> alcoholics and addicts" smoking themselves to death. Actually, the reality
> of craving is very similar for both. The craving for a cigarette begins
> after smoking the last not before smoking the next. A person that hasn't
> smoked craves a cigarette no more than a person that hasn't had a drink.
For
> a person that has been abstinent for a while from either one it is mental
> obsession that brings a person to pick up the first drink or cigarette.

So sans a benchmark of your own experience, if any, you're an *expert* here
regardless.

OK. You and rosie make an apt duo.

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:17:06 -0500, "Debbie"
<Debbie_PrivateABC@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> I'm married to a great guy that I trust completely.

Damn!

--
Harry

[Debbie]

> > I'm married to a great guy that I trust completely.
>
> Damn!
>
> --
> Harry

LOL.

Debbie


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[Kirk S]

"Debbie" <Debbie_PrivateABC@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:101pvsfps5s3paf@corp.supernews.com...
> > > I'm married to a great guy that I trust completely.
> >
> > Damn!
> >
> > --
> > Harry
>
> LOL.
>
> Debbie

Ya, me too!

Kirk S.
>
>
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>

[Debbie]

> > > > I'm married to a great guy that I trust completely.
> > >
> > > Damn!
> > >
> > > --
> > > Harry
> >
> > LOL.
> >
> > Debbie
>
> Ya, me too!
>
> Kirk S.
> >

Jiminy Christmas. I won't be able to get through the door as big as my head
is getting. LOL.

Debbie


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>
> Jiminy Christmas. I won't be able to get through the door as big
as my head
> is getting. LOL.
>
> Debbie
>


enjoy!
:)

[John Doe]

"Kirk S" <kspradling@nospamkc.rr.com> wrote in
news:U1FSb.4661$2h.2238@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com:


> <snip>

>
> Please explain how choice is not an option. A craving cannot move
> your hand or make you go get your drug of choice. I've never really
> had a physical compulsion to drink, more of a mental one to escape
> myself.
>
>
> Kirk S.
>
>
>I sure wish I could say that. In the end, if I went more than a few hours
without alcohol, I would get the shakes and dizzy spells. Break out in a
cold sweat, and not even be able to think until I got a few drinks in me.

Jeff



--
Live simply so that others may simply live.