My number's up today

[Cheggers]

Been lurking around here for a while, enjoying everyone's posts. Quite
some characters, I see. I hope I'll get to know some of you over the
coming weeks and months.

So today I quit. Been on the sauce an and off for about half my life,
now, and I figure that's plenty. Nerves are shot; I doubt I'll even go
outside for a day or two.

But I'll be getting myself out to AA soon, where I've already done a
bit of in-person lurking, and I'll do the steps and try to form some
new friendships and better habits. Not sure about the ole baby jesus
bit, but I can live with the notion of the group being the higher
power. I sure haven't had much luck kicking this alone.

Managed to quit smoking weed, which I used to do from dawn to dusk,
and even tobacco, a couple of years back, so I do know that kicking is
awful at the beginning but becomes easier.

I'm a reasonably functioning drunk, and very fortunate to not have a
load of wreckage behind me, but I think I could use a psychological
tear-down and re-build. There are some skills I either never learned
or just forgot along the way. You know the ones, I'm sure.

I've lurked enough to have learned the most common tips, tricks and
tactics. Anyone got any opinions on the role of exercise in long-term
recovery, and also tactics to cope with withdrawal? Nutrition, that
kind of thing?

Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
shaking? ;))

Thanks, y'all.

[skidoo]

baby jesus has nothing to do with my higher power, as you know it can be
whatever you want it to be
g.o.d. = gathering of drunks that's a good one

day at a time

good luck
craig
"Cheggers" <cheggers2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ffb957f.0401051226.6695569a@posting.google.co m...
> Been lurking around here for a while, enjoying everyone's posts. Quite
> some characters, I see. I hope I'll get to know some of you over the
> coming weeks and months.
>
> So today I quit. Been on the sauce an and off for about half my life,
> now, and I figure that's plenty. Nerves are shot; I doubt I'll even go
> outside for a day or two.
>
> But I'll be getting myself out to AA soon, where I've already done a
> bit of in-person lurking, and I'll do the steps and try to form some
> new friendships and better habits. Not sure about the ole baby jesus
> bit, but I can live with the notion of the group being the higher
> power. I sure haven't had much luck kicking this alone.
>
> Managed to quit smoking weed, which I used to do from dawn to dusk,
> and even tobacco, a couple of years back, so I do know that kicking is
> awful at the beginning but becomes easier.
>
> I'm a reasonably functioning drunk, and very fortunate to not have a
> load of wreckage behind me, but I think I could use a psychological
> tear-down and re-build. There are some skills I either never learned
> or just forgot along the way. You know the ones, I'm sure.
>
> I've lurked enough to have learned the most common tips, tricks and
> tactics. Anyone got any opinions on the role of exercise in long-term
> recovery, and also tactics to cope with withdrawal? Nutrition, that
> kind of thing?
>
> Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
> equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
> recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
> shaking? ;))
>
> Thanks, y'all.

[Neil]

> Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
> equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
> recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
> shaking? ;))
>
> Thanks, y'all.

Drink plenty of water, or sugar drinks. It will be 2-3 days, probably,
before the shaking gets lots better.
Its worth it though.

[Bobby L.]

"Cheggers" <cheggers2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ffb957f.0401051226.6695569a@posting.google.co m...
> Been lurking around here for a while, enjoying everyone's posts. Quite
> some characters, I see. I hope I'll get to know some of you over the
> coming weeks and months.
>
> So today I quit. Been on the sauce an and off for about half my life,
> now, and I figure that's plenty. Nerves are shot; I doubt I'll even go
> outside for a day or two.
>
> But I'll be getting myself out to AA soon, where I've already done a
> bit of in-person lurking, and I'll do the steps and try to form some
> new friendships and better habits. Not sure about the ole baby jesus
> bit, but I can live with the notion of the group being the higher
> power.

God of your understanding... not mine... Find a higher power you can live
with.

Bobby L

[Cheggers]

Thanks for the advice & encouragement. Much appreciated. Looks like I
managed a day, anyway. As I mentioned before, I'll get my sorry ass to
AA tomorrow, claim my white chip and get a temporary sponsor til I can
choose one for the steps.

Turns out my day wasn't as bad as I thought it'd be. I ain't exactly
comfortable, but I ain't climbing the walls either. I'm grateful for
that. I'm sure there are worse days to come.

I did, however, laugh my ass off at this nugget of pure and
unadulterated comedy from The Other Harry. I can see that some folks
in here are frustrated by his approach, but I want Harry to know that
the first sober laugh I've had in a good while came from this gem (to
Rosie):

<snip>

Do bare (sic) in mind that I still want to get a look at your
tits. And at every other female's. If there is a tit that I
don't like, I have yet to meet it.

And on that note, I shall take my leave.

Thanks again

[The Other Harry]

[On 5 Jan 2004 12:26:21 -0800, cheggers2004@hotmail.com
(Cheggers) wrote:]

> I'm a reasonably functioning drunk, and very fortunate to not have a
> load of wreckage behind me, but I think I could use a psychological
> tear-down and re-build. There are some skills I either never learned
> or just forgot along the way. You know the ones, I'm sure.

You'll get much the same advice from many people here, but
I'll chime in anyway. (Note that I am still unsuccessful.)

What you say about the psychological tear-down and re-build is
very relevant to me. The twelve steps are, I think, the core
or the default program. But, for me, seeing a psychiatrist
with whom I can have an interactive discussion about issues
that both do and do not directly involve alcohol has been most
important.

When I stop drinking, I have other issues that come up.
Exactly what they are is still a bit loosey-goosey. They can
be difficult to get a handle on when one is drinking. In my
case, candidates include such things as Obessive-Compulsive
Disorder, Anxiety, and Depression.

Now, to a degree, I think we all suffer from some of these
types of maladies to one degree of another, and many people
who are basically alcoholics use these as excuse to continue
drinking.

Maybe I do that. I don't think so.

When I stop drinking, I go nuts. Therefore I need the shrink
and probably some med's to be in the equation. Alcohol is my
main "presenting" problem when I am drinking, but it is
nothing like what I do when I have been off booze for a month
or so. When I say I go nuts, I am not exaggerating. I will
decline to elaborate lest I give you any ideas.

When you say you need a complete psychological tear-down and
re-build, I read that to mean that you should consider adding
a shrink to your rehab program. I would suggest a
psychiatrist as they can prescribe med's. Please not confuse
that with a suggestion that med's are a good thing. That is
up to you and the shrink.

For the record, I am currently taking two med's, one which I
consider to be transitional (few weeks), and one which I may
be on for a couple years. I don't like it, but they do seem
to be helping.

> I've lurked enough to have learned the most common tips, tricks and
> tactics. Anyone got any opinions on the role of exercise in long-term
> recovery, and also tactics to cope with withdrawal? Nutrition, that
> kind of thing?

I have strong opinions.

Exercise and nutrition are *essential* components of a
recovery program. Non-negotiable.

You don't have to go to an extreme on either. Going for a
daily walk, eating a bowl of cereal for breakfast. Just get
yourself on a regimen that addresses both. Alcoholics tend to
neglect both and to replace them with booze. You *have* to
give attention to these things. Again, it does not need to go
overboard.

As to the other "tactics to cope with withdrawal", that's a
very long list and it's probably custom to you.

My shrink wants me to get onto a regular schedule, She wants
me out of the house, and doing something that I feel good
about.

It's much more involved than that, but those are the kinds of
things.

> Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
> equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
> recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
> shaking? ;))

If you watch the nutrition and the exercise, the trembling
should stop in a week or two. Some of the other symptoms,
like difficulty sleeping and diarrhea, may continue much
longer.

I have seen some people say that they have never got over the
difficulty sleeping, not even after years.

All the more reason to see a psychiatrist, IMO. I need to
sleep. If it takes a med to do that, I will do so.

Good luck!

Harry

[debs]

"Cheggers" <cheggers2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ffb957f.0401051226.6695569a@posting.google.co m...
<snip>
I found it invaluable to follow a good basic diet for the first few
weeks.....almost like doing a detox. Plenty of water was my trick. I just
made sure that I started to feel good from every aspect of my life.
I also joined a gym and got some exercise and went swiming a couple of times
a week. If nothing else it is something to do that does not involve
propping a bar up.
I started taking a good multi vitamin plus B6 and milk thistle for a while
just to give my liver a chance for a clear out too.
I dunno if any of these things helped but they made me feel active in my
recovery.

debs

> I've lurked enough to have learned the most common tips, tricks and
> tactics. Anyone got any opinions on the role of exercise in long-term
> recovery, and also tactics to cope with withdrawal? Nutrition, that
> kind of thing?
>
> Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
> equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
> recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
> shaking? ;))
>
> Thanks, y'all.

[Plug]

"Cheggers" <cheggers2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ffb957f.0401051226.6695569a@posting.google.co m...
> Been lurking around here for a while, enjoying everyone's posts. Quite
> some characters, I see. I hope I'll get to know some of you over the
> coming weeks and months.
>
> So today I quit. Been on the sauce an and off for about half my life,
> now, and I figure that's plenty. Nerves are shot; I doubt I'll even go
> outside for a day or two.
>
My first task was to stop drinking. I found it best to pour away all the
alcohol in the house and move my husband's booze to the garage. I also
stayed away from pubs and declined invitations to parties or even dinner
parties; anywhere where there was alcohol. I think I stayed in (apart from
going to work) for about a month. I signed in to this ng probably several
times a day and if I had any problems, I would ask for help. One thing I
found hard was sleeping; so I got up and tapped away on here. Someone,
somewhere is awake. I found it easier not to tell my friends what I was up
to. That avoided the "You're not an alcoholic" scenario.

After about a month, I then had the wonderful problem of what to do with all
the hours I used to waste slumped in front of the telly watching zoo tv. So
I took up a few hobbies: reading and gardening were just a couple. The most
scary thing for me was dealing with everyday things (Life?) without booze.
I also had to come to terms with the fact that I had become fairly selfish
and now it was payback time and I should start to pay attention to things
other than myself.

Five months after I gave up booze my husband left me. This was just before
Christmas 2002. In the past, it would have been a great excuse to hit the
bottle, but with those very difficult months under my belt I was determined
to soldier on.

It's now 18 months since my last drink. I feel an inner peace I did not
used to feel. I am happier now than I have been for years. I think the
bottom line is I like myself. I can hold my head up and smile. I have
genuine friends rather than drinking buddies and I take delight in the most
simple things that make being alive so wonderful - kissing my daughter's
head before she goes to school, noticing how green the grass is after the
rain. I can't promise a rainbow at the end of your road, but stopping
drinking worked for me.

Good luck

Deb/Bubba

[r+p rosie]

you and in my daily thoughts as you "trudge the road of happy
destiny".................i remember my first couple days and weeks
going to AA meetings, i really just listened A LOT!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson
REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME
****VOTE****


>
> "Cheggers" <cheggers2004@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ffb957f.0401051226.6695569a@posting.google.co m...
> > But I'll be getting myself out to AA soon, where I've already
done a
> > bit of in-person lurking, and I'll do the steps and try to form
some
> > new friendships and better habits. Not sure about the ole baby
jesus
> > bit, but I can live with the notion of the group being the
higher
> > power.

[r+p rosie]

>.................. but I want Harry to know that
> the first sober laugh I've had in a good while came from this gem
(to
> Rosie):
>
> <snip>
>
> Do bare (sic) in mind that I still want to get a look at your
> tits. And at every other female's. If there is a tit that I
> don't like, I have yet to meet it.



harry has already apologized for this.......................
but then again, who can blame him?
;)

[Cheggers]

Other Harry, nice to hear from you. I've followed your postings with
interest, and you have made me laugh many, many times.

Y'know, I'm really lucky. I have a brother ten years older with the
same (unarrested) disease, so I'm fortunate in that I don't really
have to wait till the shit comes down the pipe; I can just look at Big
Bruv and see - probably with some accuracy, given the ole genetic
disposition we share - where I'll be in ten years time if I kept
going.

And, interestingly, many of the things he says and does remind me of
the things you have posted. He'd go to the ends of the earth for a
cure, so long as it doesn't involve actually giving up booze. He has a
shrink who prescribes meds, and whom he (my brother) was dishonest
with about the nature of his problems for at least five years.
Consequently, he has more than one chemical dependency now. I can
seriously live without that! ;)

I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of your shrink. My brother
eventually told the shrink about the drinking (or, rather, the extent
of it). The shrink told him, effectively, that if he would quit
drinking then everything else would get better. The anxiety, the
depression, the falling down in public, the pant shitting. No dice.
Big Bro continues, to the best of my knowledge, to play intellectual
chess with the shrink and keep - literally - hundreds of cans of beer
in the garden shed, where they are simultaneously not available to him
(he thinks) and where (oddly enough)he drinks a number of them daily.

So, being able to see my future, and - unlike you, not believing that
I have any accompanying diagnosable mental illness, I'm not going to
be looking for a shrink right now.

The teardown and rebuild I talked about was really just doing the
steps. I believe I can see value for me in what the steps set out to
achieve. I sure could live happier without resentment, anger and all
the rest. I can see those things are lifelong impediments for me
personally, and I'm willing to give it my best shot. I'm unhappy with
the way I feel, look and act. I've got everything to gain!

I read about your other issues, Harry, and yeah, we all might be a
little nuts. I'd be a little fogged to say right now! But I can tell
you this story: I once consulted a doctor about anxiety problems and
told him I was drinking a lot, too. He asked me: what came first, the
anxiety or the booze? And I answered, truthfully if reluctantly, the
booze. He said: Then you have a drink problem. I didn't like that
much, but I now know he was right.

> many people
> who are basically alcoholics use these [illnesses] as excuse to continue
> drinking.
>
> Maybe I do that. I don't think so.

My brother does. I have done it.

> When I stop drinking, I go nuts. Therefore I need the shrink
> and probably some med's to be in the equation. Alcohol is my
> main "presenting" problem when I am drinking, but it is
> nothing like what I do when I have been off booze for a month
> or so. When I say I go nuts, I am not exaggerating. I will
> decline to elaborate lest I give you any ideas.
>

I wish that you would elaborate. I think it would help me.


> For the record, I am currently taking two med's, one which I
> consider to be transitional (few weeks), and one which I may
> be on for a couple years. I don't like it, but they do seem
> to be helping.

I recall reading about them. Have you been drinking less?


> Exercise and nutrition are *essential* components of a
> recovery program. Non-negotiable.
>
> You don't have to go to an extreme on either. Going for a
> daily walk, eating a bowl of cereal for breakfast. Just get
> yourself on a regimen that addresses both. Alcoholics tend to
> neglect both and to replace them with booze. You *have* to
> give attention to these things. Again, it does not need to go
> overboard.
>
> As to the other "tactics to cope with withdrawal", that's a
> very long list and it's probably custom to you.
>
> My shrink wants me to get onto a regular schedule, She wants
> me out of the house, and doing something that I feel good
> about.
>
> It's much more involved than that, but those are the kinds of
> things.
>
> > Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
> > equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
> > recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
> > shaking? ;))
>
> If you watch the nutrition and the exercise, the trembling
> should stop in a week or two. Some of the other symptoms,
> like difficulty sleeping and diarrhea, may continue much
> longer.
>
> I have seen some people say that they have never got over the
> difficulty sleeping, not even after years.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate the time and effort you made to
write. I will make an effort to incorporate a couple of these tips
into my day, today.
>
> All the more reason to see a psychiatrist, IMO. I need to
> sleep. If it takes a med to do that, I will do so.

I understand where you're coming from, Harry.

Good luck to you, too.

[Cheggers]

I like the sound of being active in my recovery, as you put it. Thanks
for your post - great suggestions! I haven't swum in years (wonder
why? ;)).

Thanks you!



> I found it invaluable to follow a good basic diet for the first few
> weeks.....almost like doing a detox. Plenty of water was my trick. I just
> made sure that I started to feel good from every aspect of my life.
> I also joined a gym and got some exercise and went swiming a couple of times
> a week. If nothing else it is something to do that does not involve
> propping a bar up.
> I started taking a good multi vitamin plus B6 and milk thistle for a while
> just to give my liver a chance for a clear out too.
> I dunno if any of these things helped but they made me feel active in my
> recovery.
>
> debs
>
> > I've lurked enough to have learned the most common tips, tricks and
> > tactics. Anyone got any opinions on the role of exercise in long-term
> > recovery, and also tactics to cope with withdrawal? Nutrition, that
> > kind of thing?
> >
> > Finally, for those who were drinking at about my level (say the
> > equivalent of a dozen beers a night), how long was the physical
> > recovery process (which translates to: when will my freakin'hands stop
> > shaking? ;))
> >
> > Thanks, y'all.

[Cheggers]

Thanks for this, Deb/Bubba. No booze in house... check. Staying away
from parties sounds like a pretty sensible idea, too. Hobbies... man,
I hadn't even thought of filling my time yet. Maybe I'll take a trip
to the library and see what interests me these days.

Sounds like you went through a pretty rough time of it when your
husband left. Hearing that you succeeded in hanging onto your sobriety
through an event like that gives me a lot of hope at the start of my
second day

Thanks again for posting.

[The Other Harry]

[On 6 Jan 2004 08:32:18 -0800, cheggers2004@hotmail.com
(Cheggers) wrote:]

> Y'know, I'm really lucky. I have a brother ten years older with the
> same (unarrested) disease, so I'm fortunate in that I don't really
> have to wait till the shit comes down the pipe; I can just look at Big
> Bruv and see - probably with some accuracy, given the ole genetic
> disposition we share - where I'll be in ten years time if I kept
> going.

I think there can be something in the genes. When I look at
my immediate family and my first cousins, there seems to be a
disproportionate frequency of psych problems. My mother was
the only other full-blown alcoholic, but IMO she was
self-medicating against other things. Her mother had
committed suicide, and my mother always felt responsible for
that.

> And, interestingly, many of the things he says and does remind me of
> the things you have posted. He'd go to the ends of the earth for a
> cure, so long as it doesn't involve actually giving up booze. He has a
> shrink who prescribes meds, and whom he (my brother) was dishonest
> with about the nature of his problems for at least five years.
> Consequently, he has more than one chemical dependency now. I can
> seriously live without that! ;)

Well, I do DO my best to be honest with Nancy (my
psychiatrist), in my posts here, and in the conversations I
have with other people. In my case, I think a big part of
that is age. At 55, I've finally realized that there is no
benefit to lying. Most other people have their problems too.

Also, it seems downright stupid to me to pay for counseling
and then tell lies to the counselor. Especially when you have
no insurance.

Coincidentally, today I asked Nancy how honest she thought her
patients usually are with her. She ducked the question,
saying something to the effect that a lot of times they aren't
sure themselves about the nature of their problems.

My guess is that most of them bullshit her to one degree or
another. Alcoholics and many categories of psychologically
disturbed people are proficient, almost compulsive liars. You
ever meet a sociopath? You can't trust one word that comes
out of their mouths -- and you won't be able to distinguish
truth from lies.

> I'm glad you're getting some mileage out of your shrink.

I think I am. A lot of what she does is read back to me the
things I tell her -- the parts she wants to reinforce, anyway.
But I find that helpful.

I make little "deals" with her. They would seem trivial if I
listed them all. Things like getting out of the house by 9:00
AM. Not taking any Lorazepam until 4:00 PM. Opening the mail
every day. Switching to a smaller glass when I do drink.

They are small things, but they are nudging me along what
seems to be a constructive path -- at a pace that I seem to be
able sustain -- which, for me, is critical.

See below for more elaboration.

> So, being able to see my future, and - unlike you, not believing that
> I have any accompanying diagnosable mental illness, I'm not going to
> be looking for a shrink right now.

I misunderstood the "tear-down and re-build" comment. I
agree; don't go making problems when none exist.

>> When I stop drinking, I go nuts. Therefore I need the shrink
>> and probably some med's to be in the equation. Alcohol is my
>> main "presenting" problem when I am drinking, but it is
>> nothing like what I do when I have been off booze for a month
>> or so. When I say I go nuts, I am not exaggerating. I will
>> decline to elaborate lest I give you any ideas.
>
> I wish that you would elaborate. I think it would help me.

I'm not sure it would, and I'm not sure I can. Not without
writing a book.

The closest I can get in a brief statement is that I get
progressively "wound up" when I am sober. Wound up to the
point where I am ultimately no long able to function at all.

To take one minor example, you know about "to-do" lists,
right? I live by them. If something gets on a list, it gets
done; if it does not get on the list, it likely does not get
done.

When I am sober, the to-do list metastasizes. It grows every
day in numbers and complexity. The items on it need to be
performed ever more perfectly.

It eventually overwhelms me. I become frustrated with my
inability to cope with it. I become evermore disagreeable to
be around. I am not violent toward other people, but I begin
to be able to relate to being violent toward other people. I
become, shall we say, "gratuitously confrontational".

I also start entertaining thoughts about suicide.

It is probably because of this sort of thing that Nancy thinks
my primary diagnosis is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.

But it is muddy.

There is a lot of generalized anxiety built into that. I
expect the Fed's to come busting thru the door any minute. Or
a tree limb to fall on the house. If there is something to
worry about, I worry about it. I hallucinate things to worry
about.

Depression is there also. In case you don't know about
depression, it is not merely "feeling sad". It is very
complex. The symptoms aren't always what you might think they
would be.

But if we use your doctor's test of, "What came first?", in my
case it would definitely be the Obsessive-Compulsive. That
goes way back.

This goes to one of the problems I have with "stop drinking
now" method. I know for many people that is the best (and
perhaps the only way).

I can do that -- for a time. Let's call that a month.

But when I get wound up so tight that I can't see straight, I
totally collapse. I don't just go get drunk. I get drunk
and stay drunk. I give back every bit of ground I have
gained, and then some.

I am looking for a way out. Not an easy way. I just can't
keep fluctuating between extremes.

Enough!

Harry ;)

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:l3cmvv4tpuf5f5qks19h0kfo3a7nefijfe@4ax.com...

> Alcoholics and many categories of psychologically
> disturbed people are proficient, almost compulsive liars. You
> ever meet a sociopath? You can't trust one word that comes
> out of their mouths -- and you won't be able to distinguish
> truth from lies.
>

You just described Rosemary Barrett to a "T".

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 20:01:56 -0500, "Moonraker"
<notnow@noway.nev> wrote:]

> You just described Rosemary Barrett to a "T".

Rosemary apparently has me fooled so far. I'm an easy person
to fool, so that is no great accomplishment if it's true.

[r+p rosie]

MOONIE,
no matter what you say, how mean you want folks to believe you are,
your still loved.

(((((((((((((((((((((((moonie))))))))))))))))))))) )))

[Blue Moon]

On 5 Jan 2004 12:26:21 -0800, cheggers2004@hotmail.com (Cheggers)
wrote:

>But I'll be getting myself out to AA soon, where I've already done a
>bit of in-person lurking, and I'll do the steps and try to form some
>new friendships and better habits. Not sure about the ole baby jesus
>bit, but I can live with the notion of the group being the higher
>power.

Whoever mentioned Jesus? If belief in Jesus was necessary to recover,
I'd probably have stayed drunk.

--
Blue Moon

[r+p rosie]

> Rosemary apparently has me fooled so far. I'm an easy person
> to fool, so that is no great accomplishment if it's true.
>


no, i don't have you fooled harry.......................i am exactly
as you think i am....................

robert and moonie are having their own personal problems at this
time, and i seem to be their "whipping
post".....................THIS TOO SHALL PASS, and in the meantime,
all we can do is pray for them.

how are you feeling?

[Ron]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:21:14 -0500, The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> It is probably because of this sort of thing that Nancy thinks
> my primary diagnosis is Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder.
>
> But it is muddy.
>
> There is a lot of generalized anxiety built into that. I
> expect the Fed's to come busting thru the door any minute. Or
> a tree limb to fall on the house. If there is something to
> worry about, I worry about it. I hallucinate things to worry
> about.
>
> Depression is there also. In case you don't know about
> depression, it is not merely "feeling sad". It is very
> complex. The symptoms aren't always what you might think they
> would be.

Mental illness is very real. I used to know someone quite well who was
bi-polar, and occasionally epileptic. Sometimes she would stop taking
her meds. That was bad. People who have such problems look just like
everybody else. Their mouth moves, and words come out - just like other
people. In almost every way, they *are* just like everyone else - but
not quite. It's a very strange thing to experience from the outside.
I'm sure it's even stranger from the inside.

I'm just trying to say I can empathize, in some small way, with the
problems associated with a mental disorder.

What I don't understand, though, is why you think drinking alcohol is a
valid way to cope. Maybe 'valid' isn't the right word - but nonetheless
you continue to assert that drinking is better than not drinking. Does
your doctor support this theory? Can you point to any solid medical
evidence to support your assertion that drinking helps you with your
problem(s)? Or would you maybe concede that perhaps you're being a bit
a sophist? Maybe even with yourself.

When my friend stopped taking her meds, she could rationalize for weeks
on end about why she shouldn't start taking them again. It was clearly
much better, in her mind, to assume the fetal position in the corner of
her room all day. Day after day. It ruined her education. When she
got back on them, she would be furious with herself for being so
stupid..

Are the meds you are on designed to relieve the symptoms of a mental
disorder, or as treatment for alcoholism? I.E. - are the meds directed
at the cause or at the effect of your problem?

--
AB5DB9CC

[Cheggers]

The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<l3cmvv4tpuf5f5qks19h0kfo3a7nefijfe@4ax.com>...

> I think there can be something in the genes. When I look at
> my immediate family and my first cousins, there seems to be a
> disproportionate frequency of psych problems. My mother was
> the only other full-blown alcoholic, but IMO she was
> self-medicating against other things. Her mother had
> committed suicide, and my mother always felt responsible for
> that.

Looks like we share similar odds, Harry. My eldest brother had drug
problems (as well as others) and committed suicide. At least I'll be
able to tell my kids that they're plain stupid to roll the dice with
chemicals given their father's genetic disposition. I wish someone
would have told me that (mind you, I don't know if I would have
listened... probably not).

> Well, I do DO my best to be honest with Nancy (my
> psychiatrist), in my posts here, and in the conversations I
> have with other people. In my case, I think a big part of
> that is age. At 55, I've finally realized that there is no
> benefit to lying.
>
> Also, it seems downright stupid to me to pay for counseling
> and then tell lies to the counselor. Especially when you have
> no insurance.

It would prove your insanity beyond all reasonable doubt I'd say :-)

> Coincidentally, today I asked Nancy how honest she thought her
> patients usually are with her. She ducked the question,
> saying something to the effect that a lot of times they aren't
> sure themselves about the nature of their problems.
>
> My guess is that most of them bullshit her to one degree or
> another. Alcoholics and many categories of psychologically
> disturbed people are proficient, almost compulsive liars. You
> ever meet a sociopath?

No, I went one better. I dated one. I'll tell you about it sometime.

You can't trust one word that comes
> out of their mouths -- and you won't be able to distinguish
> truth from lies.

But the sex is always good.

> I think I am. A lot of what she does is read back to me the
> things I tell her -- the parts she wants to reinforce, anyway.
> But I find that helpful.
>
> I make little "deals" with her. They would seem trivial if I
> listed them all. Things like getting out of the house by 9:00
> AM. Not taking any Lorazepam until 4:00 PM. Opening the mail
> every day. Switching to a smaller glass when I do drink.

Sounds similar to the stuff my brother's shrink was doing with him.
Your 'life routine' stuff sounds decent, but those booze deals I never
understood. It's like... jeez... a smaller glass (or a lower alcohol
beer, in my brother's case)... never woulda helped me.

> They are small things, but they are nudging me along what
> seems to be a constructive path -- at a pace that I seem to be
> able sustain -- which, for me, is critical.

Then good.

> The closest I can get in a brief statement is that I get
> progressively "wound up" when I am sober. Wound up to the
> point where I am ultimately no long able to function at all.
>
> To take one minor example, you know about "to-do" lists,
> right?

Right.

I live by them. If something gets on a list, it gets
> done; if it does not get on the list, it likely does not get
> done.
>
> When I am sober, the to-do list metastasizes. It grows every
> day in numbers and complexity. The items on it need to be
> performed ever more perfectly.
>
> It eventually overwhelms me. I become frustrated with my
> inability to cope with it. I become evermore disagreeable to
> be around. I am not violent toward other people, but I begin
> to be able to relate to being violent toward other people. I
> become, shall we say, "gratuitously confrontational".

> There is a lot of generalized anxiety built into that. I
> expect the Fed's to come busting thru the door any minute. Or
> a tree limb to fall on the house. If there is something to
> worry about, I worry about it. I hallucinate things to worry
> about.
>
> Depression is there also. In case you don't know about
> depression, it is not merely "feeling sad". It is very
> complex. The symptoms aren't always what you might think they
> would be.

Understood. I have known depression too. In fact, with the exception
of the OCD thing, I have felt (to at least some degree) all of the
feelings you mentioned when I've tried to quit before. That's why I'm
here to do the thing and learn some new skills and tools to counter
that stuff. Because if I don't I'll get drunk off my ass and shit my
pants again.

> But if we use your doctor's test of, "What came first?", in my
> case it would definitely be the Obsessive-Compulsive. That
> goes way back.
>
> This goes to one of the problems I have with "stop drinking
> now" method. I know for many people that is the best (and
> perhaps the only way).
>
> I can do that -- for a time. Let's call that a month.
>
> But when I get wound up so tight that I can't see straight, I
> totally collapse. I don't just go get drunk. I get drunk
> and stay drunk. I give back every bit of ground I have
> gained, and then some.
>
> I am looking for a way out. Not an easy way. I just can't
> keep fluctuating between extremes.

Fucking hell. So why don't you bite the bullet and go for the $40K
three month golf cure, and sort out all this shit at once? I think I
would.

Best,

Cheggers :-)

[Moonraker]

"r+p rosie" <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SZKKb.220919$Eq1.57033@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> no, i don't have you fooled harry.......................i am exactly
> as you think i am....................

Ummm huh. A liar and a fraud.

>
> robert and moonie are having their own personal problems at this
> time,

Really? Besides being a liar and a fraud, now you're clairvoyant, too?
Feel free to itemize any "personal problems" of mine that you've devined.


and i seem to be their "whipping
> post"....................

Ah....would that we COULD tie yer fat arse to a stake and call the red ants
fer dinner.

>.THIS TOO SHALL PASS,

You HOPE. Not much chance of me letting up on you.

and in the meantime,
> all we can do is pray for them.

You mean pray to the God you don't believe in?

>
> how are you feeling?

With both hands.


>
>

[Moonraker]

Gaaaaagggggg.

"r+p rosie" <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qXKKb.220904$Eq1.14872@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> MOONIE,
> no matter what you say, how mean you want folks to believe you are,
> your still loved.
>
> (((((((((((((((((((((((moonie))))))))))))))))))))) )))
>
>

[r+p rosie]

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:HyLKb.4460$hh.1819@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Gaaaaagggggg.
>


awwwwwwwwwwwwww, you KNOW you don't mean that!
;)

[r+p rosie]

> >.THIS TOO SHALL PASS,
>
> You HOPE. Not much chance of me letting up on you.
>


ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you will, you will.............................
;)

[Ron]

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 04:11:06 GMT, r+p rosie <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
> news:HyLKb.4460$hh.1819@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>> Gaaaaagggggg.
>>
>
>
> awwwwwwwwwwwwww, you KNOW you don't mean that!
> ;)

Do you think that saying 'shit, piss, fuck' is the only way to be
offensive? Do you believe knowingly offending people helps either your
recovery or theirs? Do you ever *not* reply to a post?

--
AB5DB9CC

[Cheggers]

> Whoever mentioned Jesus? If belief in Jesus was necessary to recover,
> I'd probably have stayed drunk.

:) Yeah, I understand. I was being a jackass.

[debs]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:V1LKb.147204$VB2.563399@attbi_s51...
> On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:21:14 -0500, The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com>
wrote:

<snip>
I have bi-polar and for years used alcohol as a means of self medicating the
mood swings.
I drank while depressed to try to make every thing feel better but I drank
more when I was high as a means of trying to get some sleep. I could go
weeks with only maybe one or two hours sleep a night. My mind would be
constantly active but my body would be exhausted.
Alcohol was not a 'valid' way to cope. For me a combination of not drinking
and taking my meds has worked.
No doctor (I am sure) would support using alcohol as a means of coping with
mental illness. A lot of doctors accept that a lot of bi-polars used
drink/drugs to try to alleviate their symtoms. My doctors knew I was
drinking but did not tackle the subject with me until I indicated I was
ready to work with them on this. It them became a two way process and I
felt pro-active I my treatment.

I was treated with drugs first and then I tackled the alcohol. But my
doctor has always said that it was a 'chicken and egg' situation. The cycle
had to be stopped which ever way it was done. I don't advocate drugs for
everyone for stopping drinking. I only use a mood stabiliser, I steer clear
of benzos and anti-depressants.

Harry is unfortunately using very powerful drugs but still drinking with
them. Therefore any benefits are being cancelled out.

debs

> What I don't understand, though, is why you think drinking alcohol is a
> valid way to cope. Maybe 'valid' isn't the right word - but nonetheless
> you continue to assert that drinking is better than not drinking. Does
> your doctor support this theory? Can you point to any solid medical
> evidence to support your assertion that drinking helps you with your
> problem(s)? Or would you maybe concede that perhaps you're being a bit
> a sophist? Maybe even with yourself.
>
> When my friend stopped taking her meds, she could rationalize for weeks
> on end about why she shouldn't start taking them again. It was clearly
> much better, in her mind, to assume the fetal position in the corner of
> her room all day. Day after day. It ruined her education. When she
> got back on them, she would be furious with herself for being so
> stupid..
>
> Are the meds you are on designed to relieve the symptoms of a mental
> disorder, or as treatment for alcoholism? I.E. - are the meds directed
> at the cause or at the effect of your problem?
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Gregg Fowler]

Shouldn't try and take it all at once! Don't be so eager.

"Moonraker" <notnow@noway.nev> wrote in message
news:HyLKb.4460$hh.1819@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Gaaaaagggggg.
>
> "r+p rosie" <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:qXKKb.220904$Eq1.14872@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > MOONIE,
> > no matter what you say, how mean you want folks to believe you are,
> > your still loved.
> >
> > (((((((((((((((((((((((moonie))))))))))))))))))))) )))
> >
> >
>
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:24:34 GMT, "r+p rosie"
<readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> how are you feeling?

I'm feeling much better this morning. Not bleeding from the
backside is a big improvement.

The only negative is that today I get to address the problem
in a serious way. I have not yet figured out how I am going
to go about doing that. In Waynesboro, we have a limited
choice of physicians; over in Charlottesville, there is just
about anything anyone might want. UVA Medical Center, etc.

The care here is more personalized and much less expensive.

At the moment, I'm thinking I'll try here first. Fifteen
munutes from now, I may have changed my mind.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:24:34 GMT, "r+p rosie"
<readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> i am exactly as you think i am....................

That's how you looked to me.

> robert and moonie are having their own personal problems at this
> time, and i seem to be their "whipping post"

Well, maybe if I play my cards right, I can share some of the
whipping. I certainly deserve some, and I don't mind it.

> THIS TOO SHALL PASS, and in the meantime,
> all we can do is pray for them.

All things pass. Hopefully including my BM's.

Which I think we can put in the same category as Robbie and
Moon.

I still do listen to and respect their opinions. It is their
meanness that loses me.

[r+p rosie]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:mbonvvssjuptccjovl5kue55d5fpn7r579@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 03:24:34 GMT, "r+p rosie"
> <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
> > i am exactly as you think i am....................
>
> That's how you looked to me.
>
> > robert and moonie are having their own personal problems at this
> > time, and i seem to be their "whipping post"
>
> Well, maybe if I play my cards right, I can share some of the
> whipping. I certainly deserve some, and I don't mind it.
>


don't worry about it, i don't!
their behavior is quite predictable, sad, and non-productive!



>
> I still do listen to and respect their opinions. It is their
> meanness that loses me.

listening to folks who are sober, who share their E-S+H can't be
wrong, there is a lot to learn about being "dry", being sober,
changing the things that can be changed, etc.

i hope that you will have a better day and that you will find the
physicians and the medical help you need.

rosie

[Robert McGregor]

"r+p rosie" <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SZKKb.220919$Eq1.57033@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > Rosemary apparently has me fooled so far. I'm an easy person
> > to fool, so that is no great accomplishment if it's true.
> >
>
>
> no, i don't have you fooled harry.......................i am exactly
> as you think i am....................
>
> robert and moonie are having their own personal problems at this
> time, and i seem to be their "whipping
> post".....................THIS TOO SHALL PASS, and in the meantime,
> all we can do is pray for them.
>
> how are you feeling?
>
>

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <ZPSl5.19140$E05.340458@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to
>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that dosage?
>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[Robert McGregor]

"r+p rosie" <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P0UKb.64748$fq1.11119@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

>
> listening to folks who are sober, who share their E-S+H can't be
> wrong, there is a lot to learn about being "dry", being sober,
> changing the things that can be changed, etc.

Are you ever going to follow your own advice?

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v238b.131$ZL3.67@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>i especially like to go to meetings, where there are NO EXPERTS,

How else could it be.

Despite your arguably posting more advice here than the other regulars
combined, your minimal experiences of recovery merely reflect your drug
dependance. You are an unfortunate example of the fear endemic in AA.

>i hope that you will have a better day and that you will find the
>physicians and the medical help you need.

This is neither alt.misery, alt.haemeroids, or alt.medication

Similar to your own poverty of hope that could enable abandonment of your
own drug dependence, Harry has insufficient hope to warrant his implementing
solutions to stop drinking and stay stopped. I believe neither physicians,
other medical help, nor your bullshit, can give him that hope.

Far as I can ascertain, that hope is available to Harry, but only at the
cost of *his* false pride.

http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html

Bob

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d_rZa.76641$7O4.1782289@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> chronic depression, DOES NOT lift.
> by definition: "it is always there".
>

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WmE9b.246$eX1.98@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> i am quite frightened by the thought of taking another
drink...................

"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.608669@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>

>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to read
>about it!

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i will never be recovered..............................

[r+p rosie]

> This is neither alt.misery, alt.haemeroids, or alt.medication
>


ah, nooooooooooooooooooo, this is ALT.ROBERTOBCESSEDWITHROSIE

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((ROBERT))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))

[Robert McGregor]

"r+p rosie" <readandpostNOT@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fC1Lb.225252$Eq1.163554@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > This is neither alt.misery, alt.haemeroids, or alt.medication
> >
>
>
> ah, nooooooooooooooooooo, this is ALT.ROBERTOBCESSEDWITHROSIE
>
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((ROBERT))))))))))))))))) ))))))))))))))
>
>

Searched Groups for group:alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism author:rosie
from 1 Jan 2003 to today. Results 1 - 10 of about 3,430.
Searched Groups for group:alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism author:robert
author:mcgregor from 1 Jan 2003 to today. Results 1 - 10 of about 1,610.

Stick yer ((((((((( )))))))))))))) dildo up yer own arse

Bob

[r+p rosie]

(((((((((((((((((((((((bob))))))))))))))))))))))))

summer will come again!
:)

[Christine]

>Stick yer ((((((((( )))))))))))))) dildo up yer own arse

HA! LOL I love it.

Good stuff.