hello

[Chaz]

hello.

i am sitting here in front of my PC having a little internal battle with
myself about whether i should post to this NG. Part of me is saying "you
are ok, you are not an alcoholic, you don't need any help. Just drink a
bit less, just have a couple of dry days, everything will be fine."

another part of me is saying "you have been thinking about giving up
drinking, or reducing the amount you drink, for as long as you can
remember. you are worried about the long term effects of drinking on
your health and your ability to live your life. if you were going to
sort this out, you would have sorted it out by now."

so anyway; here i am. I am 30 years old. I have been drinking for the
last 15 years. I am in a happy relationship, i have a good job, and as
far as i know, my friends and family do not think that i have a drink
problem. However, in the UK, in London, it is acceptable to drink quite
heavily. I am a big bloke, I "handle" drink reasonably well. I do not
commonly become violent or aggressive. I usually drink every day and
have done so for many years. sometimes i will go two or three days
without a drink. I would say i drink more regularly but more moderately
than I did when i was in my early 20s, when I would frequently lose
memory after drinking sessions. I always have drink in the house. I have
a drink as soon as i get home from work. I never drink in the morning
and only sometimes at lunch. Right now I have had about a week or so of
heavy drinking over the christams period. Today is the first day that I
haven't drunk. i feel a bit shakey and a bit nauseaous, but not too bad.

sorry for going on so much - i suppose i want to try and get clear in my
head how i feel and how i am.

happy new year to everyone.

Chaz.

[read and post daily!]

welcome to the group chaz!

can you stop drinking?
what happens to you when you do?
how long is the longest you have gone without alcohol?




--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson








"Chaz" <chae@TAKEAWAYpinzo.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1073062417.21492.0@eunomia.uk.clara.net...
> hello.
>
> i am sitting here in front of my PC having a little internal
battle with
> myself about whether i should post to this NG. Part of me is
saying "you
> are ok, you are not an alcoholic, you don't need any help. Just
drink a
> bit less, just have a couple of dry days, everything will be
fine."
>
> another part of me is saying "you have been thinking about giving
up
> drinking, or reducing the amount you drink, for as long as you can
> remember. you are worried about the long term effects of drinking
on
> your health and your ability to live your life. if you were going
to
> sort this out, you would have sorted it out by now."
>
> so anyway; here i am. I am 30 years old. I have been drinking for
the
> last 15 years. I am in a happy relationship, i have a good job,
and as
> far as i know, my friends and family do not think that i have a
drink
> problem. However, in the UK, in London, it is acceptable to drink
quite
> heavily. I am a big bloke, I "handle" drink reasonably well. I do
not
> commonly become violent or aggressive. I usually drink every day
and
> have done so for many years. sometimes i will go two or three days
> without a drink. I would say i drink more regularly but more
moderately
> than I did when i was in my early 20s, when I would frequently
lose
> memory after drinking sessions. I always have drink in the house.
I have
> a drink as soon as i get home from work. I never drink in the
morning
> and only sometimes at lunch. Right now I have had about a week or
so of
> heavy drinking over the christams period. Today is the first day
that I
> haven't drunk. i feel a bit shakey and a bit nauseaous, but not
too bad.
>
> sorry for going on so much - i suppose i want to try and get clear
in my
> head how i feel and how i am.
>
> happy new year to everyone.
>
> Chaz.
>

[Chaz]

read and post daily! wrote:

> welcome to the group chaz!

thanks :)

> can you stop drinking?

as far as i know, i can. i suppose that i have only ever tried in a half
hearted sort of way.

> what happens to you when you do?

usually what happens is i feel bad for a day, then i start to feel ok.
sometimes i feel bored or listless or depressed. what tends to happen is
afetr 2 or 3 days i feel so pleased with myself for not drinking, and i
feel that i must have recovered from whatever caused me to stop drinking
in the first place, that i decide to celebrate with a beer or two.
sounds silly now, but it seems logical at the time.

> how long is the longest you have gone without alcohol?
>
about a month, once, but that was eight or nine years ago. more
recently, a few days is the longest.

[read and post daily!]

chaz,
why not go over to your nearest AA meeting and check it out?
you will know after listening to some of those guys if your story is
similar................

just a couple thoughts from me:

1. NON-alcoholics don't question their drinking.
2. NON-alcoholics don't bother quitting, because they don't need
to.

i relate to your celebrating your couple day abstinence with a beer
or two, most alcoholics have "been there, done that"!


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson








"Chaz" <chae@TAKEAWAYpinzo.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1073063005.22403.0@eunomia.uk.clara.net...
> read and post daily! wrote:
>
> > welcome to the group chaz!
>
> thanks :)
>
> > can you stop drinking?
>
> as far as i know, i can. i suppose that i have only ever tried in
a half
> hearted sort of way.
>
> > what happens to you when you do?
>
> usually what happens is i feel bad for a day, then i start to feel
ok.
> sometimes i feel bored or listless or depressed. what tends to
happen is
> afetr 2 or 3 days i feel so pleased with myself for not drinking,
and i
> feel that i must have recovered from whatever caused me to stop
drinking
> in the first place, that i decide to celebrate with a beer or two.
> sounds silly now, but it seems logical at the time.
>
> > how long is the longest you have gone without alcohol?
> >
> about a month, once, but that was eight or nine years ago. more
> recently, a few days is the longest.
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:03:23 +0000, Chaz
<chae@TAKEAWAYpinzo.clara.co.uk> wrote:]

> > can you stop drinking?
>
> as far as i know, i can. i suppose that i have only ever tried in a half
> hearted sort of way.
>
> > what happens to you when you do?
>
> usually what happens is i feel bad for a day, then i start to feel ok.
> sometimes i feel bored or listless or depressed. what tends to happen is
> afetr 2 or 3 days i feel so pleased with myself for not drinking, and i
> feel that i must have recovered from whatever caused me to stop drinking
> in the first place, that i decide to celebrate with a beer or two.
> sounds silly now, but it seems logical at the time.
>
> > how long is the longest you have gone without alcohol?
> >
> about a month, once, but that was eight or nine years ago. more
> recently, a few days is the longest.

Please take this from someone who is a little further down the
dark alley than you apparently are just now. (You sound like
you're getting there tho.)

Alcohol dependency snuck up on me. It just got so that I more
and more looked forward to a drink after work. I figured that
I had earned it. In a sense, I had -- I had put in long hours
and I had worked hard. Done a good job.

But what about the effect that was having on the family? Home
life?

If we went, for instance, camping, I could hold it together
until the things all got set up. Then I'd get drunk. That
was my reward for doing "my part" well.

I could / can go days at time without booze when I need to. I
still do have that much self-discpline. But it is waning. Now
if I wake up on a Saturday and have nothing pressing that I
need to do, I might as well go make myself a drink.

For me, there is quite a lot that is going on that I need to
understand in order to get into changing my behaviors and
thought patterns. I need to get a mental handle on what it is
I am doing and why I am doing it. Other people who post here
take the bull by the horns and wrestle him to the ground.

You will get dramatically different perspectives here.

The point, I think, is that booze can become a pretty big
problem, Maybe not as bad a crack cocaine, but worse than
most of the other stuff that's around.

Let me go back and recap one exchange:

>> can you stop drinking?
>
> as far as i know, i can. i suppose that i have only ever tried in a half
> hearted sort of way.

The times I have told myself this runs into the millions.

But now that I am actually making an effort to quit, it's not
so easy.

By "not so easy", I mean a whole variety of symptoms which are
not pleasant. Night sweats, inability to sleep, diarrhea,
anxiety, etc. It goes on from there. And it gets worse every
day.

Maybe there is some hurdle we cross where it starts to get
easier. I don't know about that.

What I do know is that hurdle gets a little further off every
day we drink.

[Chaz]

The Other Harry wrote:
[...]
>
> Please take this from someone who is a little further down the
> dark alley than you apparently are just now. (You sound like
> you're getting there tho.)
[...]

thanks, Harry.

the main reason for posting on here was to get some feedback from other
people, hopefully so i can avoid going to some of the places they have been.

the thing about looking forward to a drink after work, having "earned
it" - often that's exactly how i feel. I start work early. At mid-day i
might think to myself "i won't drink this evening". By two or three in
the afternoon i might be thinking "actually i quite feel like a drink.
i'll maybe have a couple". then there is an hour's drive home. I will be
getting a bit frustrated at traffic etc and thinking "damn, i really
will want a drink after this". When I get home I will go straight to the
corner shop and buy two beers. It doesn't seem too much; two beers. Some
days I will just drink these and that will be it. Of course, other days
it will be more.

[Bobby L.]

"Chaz" <chae@TAKEAWAYpinzo.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1073062417.21492.0@eunomia.uk.clara.net...
> hello.
>
> i am sitting here in front of my PC having a little internal battle with
> myself about whether i should post to this NG. Part of me is saying "you
> are ok, you are not an alcoholic, you don't need any help. Just drink a
> bit less, just have a couple of dry days, everything will be fine."
>
> another part of me is saying "you have been thinking about giving up
> drinking, or reducing the amount you drink, for as long as you can
> remember. you are worried about the long term effects of drinking on
> your health and your ability to live your life. if you were going to
> sort this out, you would have sorted it out by now."
>
> so anyway; here i am. I am 30 years old. I have been drinking for the
> last 15 years. I am in a happy relationship, i have a good job, and as
> far as i know, my friends and family do not think that i have a drink
> problem. However, in the UK, in London, it is acceptable to drink quite
> heavily. I am a big bloke, I "handle" drink reasonably well. I do not
> commonly become violent or aggressive. I usually drink every day and
> have done so for many years. sometimes i will go two or three days
> without a drink. I would say i drink more regularly but more moderately
> than I did when i was in my early 20s, when I would frequently lose
> memory after drinking sessions. I always have drink in the house. I have
> a drink as soon as i get home from work. I never drink in the morning
> and only sometimes at lunch. Right now I have had about a week or so of
> heavy drinking over the christams period. Today is the first day that I
> haven't drunk. i feel a bit shakey and a bit nauseaous, but not too bad.
>
> sorry for going on so much - i suppose i want to try and get clear in my
> head how i feel and how i am.
>
> happy new year to everyone.
>
> Chaz.
>

Sounds like you are doing fine... The nausea could be something you ate or
just not eating. Drink a bit of coffee or tea and you will likely be fine.
Folks who are not alcoholic get hangovers too. Especially the day after New
Years!

My suggestion is not worry about it today. You do not sound like one of us.
Of course, we will still be here should you ever turn "pro." :)

Relax -- just drink less or drink something non-alcoholic. Practice
relaxing without the liquor. Avoid drinking games. Find something else to
do in the time you spend drinking.

Happy New Year -

Bobby L

[Bobby L.]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:vQhJb.198259$Eq1.98319@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> chaz,
> why not go over to your nearest AA meeting and check it out?
> you will know after listening to some of those guys if your story is
> similar................
>
> just a couple thoughts from me:
>
> 1. NON-alcoholics don't question their drinking.

Sure they do.....

It's alcoholics who do not question their drinking ---- until they no
longer have a choice. I was a practicing alcoholic long before I began to
wonder if I had a problem...

[skidoo]

there is actually no definition of "alcoholic" it's not an 'either you are
or you aren't' kinda thing. So you don't have to 'admit' to anything, it's a
bell curve thing.
Yeah in London it is acceptable to drink quite a bit, it's also acepptable
there to smoke, and eat chips and kebabs and generally lead a really
unhealthy life. Doens't mean you have to.
Why not ask your friends and family especially your partner, they may have a
very different view than you expect, then again they may not. You'll only
know for sure by asking. Remember it's not the first subject people feel
comfortable about if they did have issues about it.

What do you get out of drinking, that you're not getting elsewhere, or maybe
you just like a drink. I miss going to pubs and hanging out. When you say
you're a big bloke do you mean overweight.

Sounds to me like you prolly drink to much, you're prolly overweight, you
prolly never exercise, your prolly not fit or very healthy. So in short your
life seems a bit out of balance, I don't think alcohol by itself is a big
problem for you, I think it's just one component of an unhealthy life, but
then you sound like a fairly happy guy. Maybe if you did more in your life
then you prolly wouldn't have so much time on your hands to drink that much,
you might also find that your life had afew more shades of colour and a
broader set of experiences in it than just work->home->drink->sleep->
repeat.

just some thoughts
Craig


"Chaz" <chae@TAKEAWAYpinzo.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1073062417.21492.0@eunomia.uk.clara.net...
> hello.
>
> i am sitting here in front of my PC having a little internal battle with
> myself about whether i should post to this NG. Part of me is saying "you
> are ok, you are not an alcoholic, you don't need any help. Just drink a
> bit less, just have a couple of dry days, everything will be fine."
>
> another part of me is saying "you have been thinking about giving up
> drinking, or reducing the amount you drink, for as long as you can
> remember. you are worried about the long term effects of drinking on
> your health and your ability to live your life. if you were going to
> sort this out, you would have sorted it out by now."
>
> so anyway; here i am. I am 30 years old. I have been drinking for the
> last 15 years. I am in a happy relationship, i have a good job, and as
> far as i know, my friends and family do not think that i have a drink
> problem. However, in the UK, in London, it is acceptable to drink quite
> heavily. I am a big bloke, I "handle" drink reasonably well. I do not
> commonly become violent or aggressive. I usually drink every day and
> have done so for many years. sometimes i will go two or three days
> without a drink. I would say i drink more regularly but more moderately
> than I did when i was in my early 20s, when I would frequently lose
> memory after drinking sessions. I always have drink in the house. I have
> a drink as soon as i get home from work. I never drink in the morning
> and only sometimes at lunch. Right now I have had about a week or so of
> heavy drinking over the christams period. Today is the first day that I
> haven't drunk. i feel a bit shakey and a bit nauseaous, but not too bad.
>
> sorry for going on so much - i suppose i want to try and get clear in my
> head how i feel and how i am.
>
> happy new year to everyone.
>
> Chaz.
>

[read and post daily!]

> Maybe there is some hurdle we cross where it starts to get
> easier. I don't know about that.

NO!
don't wait for that to happen harry! it just doesn't!




>
> What I do know is that hurdle gets a little further off every
> day we drink.

AMEN!

[read and post daily!]

> > just a couple thoughts from me:
> >
> > 1. NON-alcoholics don't question their drinking.
>
> Sure they do.....
>
> It's alcoholics who do not question their drinking ---- until
they no
> longer have a choice. I was a practicing alcoholic long before I
began to
> wonder if I had a problem...
>
>
>
>
>

bobby,
we will just have to disagree here.............................there
are plenty of "normies" in my family, and they don't give two shits
about their drinking habits, just like most normies i know.

i find that it is alcoholics who are constantly questioning
themselves...................

[Ron]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:40:33 GMT, read and post daily! <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:

<a jillion periods> ... there
> are plenty of "normies" in my family, and they don't give two shits
> about their drinking habits, just like most normies i know.

> i find that it is alcoholics who are constantly questioning
> themselves <more periods...>

A tautological definition based on familial observations doesn't really
hold water.

Is there any clinical basis for the oft repeated claim that anyone who
questions their drinking has a problem?

--
AB5DB9CC

[read and post daily!]

well ron..................we don't want to talk about my line of
work in this forum (you'll see why
shortly).......................................... ...but if we
could, i would assure you that my observation is shared by many!
:)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson








"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:NomJb.34109$I07.94067@attbi_s53...
> On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:40:33 GMT, read and post daily!
<nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
>
> <a jillion periods> ... there
> > are plenty of "normies" in my family, and they don't give two
shits
> > about their drinking habits, just like most normies i know.
>
> > i find that it is alcoholics who are constantly questioning
> > themselves <more periods...>
>
> A tautological definition based on familial observations doesn't
really
> hold water.
>
> Is there any clinical basis for the oft repeated claim that anyone
who
> questions their drinking has a problem?
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Robert McGregor]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:mHoJb.201216$Eq1.47944@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> But how much is a
> liar's word worth/ >

Precisely!

Bob

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:NomJb.34109$I07.94067@attbi_s53...
> > On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:40:33 GMT, read and post daily!
> <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > <a jillion periods> ... there
> > > are plenty of "normies" in my family, and they don't give two
> shits
> > > about their drinking habits, just like most normies i know.
> >
> > > i find that it is alcoholics who are constantly questioning
> > > themselves <more periods...>
> >
> > A tautological definition based on familial observations doesn't
> really
> > hold water.
> >
> > Is there any clinical basis for the oft repeated claim that anyone
> who
> > questions their drinking has a problem?
> >
> > --
> > AB5DB9CC
>
>

[Debb]

>snipped for space>

> Please take this from someone who is a little further down the
> dark alley than you apparently are just now. (You sound like
> you're getting there tho.)
>
> Alcohol dependency snuck up on me. It just got so that I more
> and more looked forward to a drink after work. I figured that
> I had earned it. In a sense, I had -- I had put in long hours
> and I had worked hard. Done a good job.

Similar sceanairo here. I was so stressed out from work, I thought I needed
a drink just to calm down for the evening.

>
> But what about the effect that was having on the family? Home
> life?

No one tells you until you're over the top -- eh?

>
> If we went, for instance, camping, I could hold it together
> until the things all got set up. Then I'd get drunk. That
> was my reward for doing "my part" well.
>
> I could / can go days at time without booze when I need to. I
> still do have that much self-discpline. But it is waning. Now
> if I wake up on a Saturday and have nothing pressing that I
> need to do, I might as well go make myself a drink.
>

You are not alone, Harry.

> For me, there is quite a lot that is going on that I need to
> understand in order to get into changing my behaviors and
> thought patterns. I need to get a mental handle on what it is
> I am doing and why I am doing it. Other people who post here
> take the bull by the horns and wrestle him to the ground.
>
Some do -- some don't. Just like cigs, pills, weight or whatever. Everyone
is different in what they can set aside and be done with forever.

> You will get dramatically different perspectives here.
>
> The point, I think, is that booze can become a pretty big
> problem

I agree -- if it's not nipped in the bud, it can become a problem in a hurry
for some people.
>
> Let me go back and recap one exchange:
>
> >
> The times I have told myself this runs into the millions.
>
>
> What I do know is that hurdle gets a little further off every
> day we drink.


I think you are one of the most honest people I've seen in here. I think
you have a handle on things and you are on your way. You are no different
than anyone else that is *finding their way*.

I know that I cannot just have one, two or three every now and then. If I
drink, I go overboard. I can't drink --period. It must be that OCD
stuff -- you think? ;-)

Debbie


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.548 / Virus Database: 341 - Release Date: 12/5/03

[read and post daily!]

HAPPY NEW YEAR ROBERT!
((((((((((((((((((((bob))))))))))))))))))))))

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson








"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bt55bo$3cstj$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mHoJb.201216$Eq1.47944@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > But how much is a
> > liar's word worth/ >
>
> Precisely!
>
> Bob
>
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:NomJb.34109$I07.94067@attbi_s53...
> > > On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 21:40:33 GMT, read and post daily!
> > <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > <a jillion periods> ... there
> > > > are plenty of "normies" in my family, and they don't give
two
> > shits
> > > > about their drinking habits, just like most normies i know.
> > >
> > > > i find that it is alcoholics who are constantly questioning
> > > > themselves <more periods...>
> > >
> > > A tautological definition based on familial observations
doesn't
> > really
> > > hold water.
> > >
> > > Is there any clinical basis for the oft repeated claim that
anyone
> > who
> > > questions their drinking has a problem?
> > >
> > > --
> > > AB5DB9CC
> >
> >
>
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 07:37:07 +1100, "skidoo" <god@heaven.com>
wrote:]

> Yeah in London it is acceptable to drink quite a bit, it's also acepptable
> there to smoke, and eat chips and kebabs and generally lead a really
> unhealthy life. Doens't mean you have to.
> Why not ask your friends and family especially your partner, they may have a
> very different view than you expect, then again they may not. You'll only
> know for sure by asking. Remember it's not the first subject people feel
> comfortable about if they did have issues about it.
>
> What do you get out of drinking, that you're not getting elsewhere, or maybe
> you just like a drink. I miss going to pubs and hanging out. When you say
> you're a big bloke do you mean overweight.
>
> Sounds to me like you prolly drink to much, you're prolly overweight, you
> prolly never exercise, your prolly not fit or very healthy. So in short your
> life seems a bit out of balance, I don't think alcohol by itself is a big
> problem for you, I think it's just one component of an unhealthy life, but
> then you sound like a fairly happy guy. Maybe if you did more in your life
> then you prolly wouldn't have so much time on your hands to drink that much,
> you might also find that your life had afew more shades of colour and a
> broader set of experiences in it than just work->home->drink->sleep->
> repeat.
>
> just some thoughts
> Craig

I don't know what the truth is, but I have mixed feelings
about your message.

I agree that there is no one clear definition of alcoholism
and that it is a bell curve. I also think that most (all) of
us have some degree of dyfunctionality -- whether we show it
or not. In street terms, we're all "fucked up", at least a
little bit.

But as with mental retardation, as a practical matter we need
to create a vertical line on that bell curve. One and a half
standard deviations below the apex will do.

Most of us don't know where that is, but we do know it when we
are experiencing it. It is the question Rosie asked Chaz and
the response he gave her:

>> can you stop drinking?
>
> as far as i know, i can. i suppose that i have only ever tried in a half
> hearted sort of way.

IMO, Chaz, like me, qualifies as an alcoholic. I don't care
about other people's definitions.

My definition is that if you think you might have a problem
with drinking, then you do have one. The earlier you deal
with it, the better. I've waited a long time.

I am still avoidant. I recocognize the problem and I would
like to cure it, but I am not (yet) doing the things that it
takes to do that.

I'm getting closer, but I am still messing with it. That will
not do.

But it also will not do to simply stop drinking. I need to
find a better way to cope with living a relatively normal
life. That is my crux.

[Kevin Barnes]

Chaz,

Here's a little test of sorts which is mentioned in the big book as a way of
helping one determine if they are alcoholic or at least have a good chance
of becoming one. I have no test results or any other type of data to
validate it's accuracy except this. I've seen it open the eyes of several
folks including myself to the fact that they were either an alcoholic or
very close to becoming one.

Tomorrow go about your business as you normally would, when the time of day
comes when you would normally start the days drinking, start drinking!
However this time drink half as much as you normally would. Now do not have
another drink for two weeks. Keep track of your thoughts and moods as you go
through the two weeks paying particular attention to the amount of time you
spend thinking about drinking or not drinking, how you handle everyday
pressure and stress. How you react to normal requests from your family and
co workers.
People who are on the "A" road get unbearable cravings for a drink or a
drug, get irritable as hell with everyone, have trouble sleeping. In my case
I had those reactions and a good bit of nausea and headaches. The best
description I've heard of the cravings is "My heart would start racing, I
was a bit dizzy, my stomach felt like I was on a roller coaster and my mouth
watered like a faucet."

Should you start to have any unusual physical or mental reactions either go
to an emergency room, see your Doctor ASAP or at least get a drink quickly.
Detoxing from alcohol can lead to seizures, irregular heart beats and a
whole host bad medical stuff.

After the two weeks are up sit back and think about your drinking again, if
you are honest with yourself you will know if you need to quit.


God Bless
KB



Chaz wrote:

> hello.
>
> i am sitting here in front of my PC having a little internal battle with
> myself about whether i should post to this NG. Part of me is saying "you
> are ok, you are not an alcoholic, you don't need any help. Just drink a
> bit less, just have a couple of dry days, everything will be fine."
>
> another part of me is saying "you have been thinking about giving up
> drinking, or reducing the amount you drink, for as long as you can
> remember. you are worried about the long term effects of drinking on
> your health and your ability to live your life. if you were going to
> sort this out, you would have sorted it out by now."
>
> so anyway; here i am. I am 30 years old. I have been drinking for the
> last 15 years. I am in a happy relationship, i have a good job, and as
> far as i know, my friends and family do not think that i have a drink
> problem. However, in the UK, in London, it is acceptable to drink quite
> heavily. I am a big bloke, I "handle" drink reasonably well. I do not
> commonly become violent or aggressive. I usually drink every day and
> have done so for many years. sometimes i will go two or three days
> without a drink. I would say i drink more regularly but more moderately
> than I did when i was in my early 20s, when I would frequently lose
> memory after drinking sessions. I always have drink in the house. I have
> a drink as soon as i get home from work. I never drink in the morning
> and only sometimes at lunch. Right now I have had about a week or so of
> heavy drinking over the christams period. Today is the first day that I
> haven't drunk. i feel a bit shakey and a bit nauseaous, but not too bad.
>
> sorry for going on so much - i suppose i want to try and get clear in my
> head how i feel and how i am.
>
> happy new year to everyone.
>
> Chaz.

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 21:12:34 -0500, "Debb"
<yeehaw@i-plus.net> wrote:]

> It must be that OCD
> stuff -- you think? ;-)

I think it is.

When I was a kid, I needed to mow and fertilize the lawn.
Everything had to be perfect, The only things my father ever
saw was what I did wrong, and there was always something, I
have never seen what I have ever done right. I still look at
it like that way.

But I can't blame my father for that. I'd like to, but I
think we each bring in some baggage.


The other bitch for me is that I have always been an idealist.
I expect that if do / try well, then things will all be fine.
That has not always proven to be the case.

It's a nice idea tho,

[Ron]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:13:54 GMT, read and post daily!
<nospam@notmail.com> wrote:

> well ron..................we don't want to talk about my line of work
> in this forum (you'll see why shortly)

I'm not asking about your line of work. You don't need to be a
clinician to cite medical authorities. I'm asking why the process of
self-actualization would imply one has a drinking problem.

..............................................but if we
> could, i would assure you that my observation is shared by many!

Clearly.

What do all the periods mean? They make your posts hard to read.

I'm not just trying to be a painintheassky about these things, I'm
genuinely curious.

--
AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:mHoJb.201216$Eq1.47944@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> well ron..................we don't want to talk about my line of
> work in this forum (you'll see why
> shortly).......................................... ...but if we
> could, i would assure you that my observation is shared by many!
> :)

Whoever "we" is , I think their decision to remain silent is a good
one.

JB

[read and post daily!]

> The other bitch for me is that I have always been an idealist.
> I expect that if do / try well, then things will all be fine.
> That has not always proven to be the case.


harry,
its a tough way to look at the world, (glass half full) but a
WONDERFUL attribute!
one i aspire to daily.
i hope you will always keep your hope
alive......................always!

[read and post daily!]

ron,
my style of writing with ...........................indicates pauses
in my speech, sorry if that is difficult to read.
i must admit to HATING communicating this way.

i reread something that i posted and i think i should clarify it a
little, and maybe it will be more understandable.

imo, "normies" don't question their drinking, AD INFINITUM.
if they have a question, they find an answer, i.e.: drink less,
drink differently, etc.and carry on with their lives.

alcoholics, ime, tend to "stay in the question" as they try
"everything" and nothing works................they question,
question, question.
i refer you to the beginning of CHAPTER THREE in the BIG BOOK.
http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_3.html

does that make more sense?



--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson








"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:HosJb.735175$Fm2.647677@attbi_s04...
> On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:13:54 GMT, read and post daily!
> <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
>
> > well ron..................we don't want to talk about my line of
work
> > in this forum (you'll see why shortly)
>
> I'm not asking about your line of work. You don't need to be a
> clinician to cite medical authorities. I'm asking why the process
of
> self-actualization would imply one has a drinking problem.
>
> .............................................but if we
> > could, i would assure you that my observation is shared by many!
>
> Clearly.
>
> What do all the periods mean? They make your posts hard to read.
>
> I'm not just trying to be a painintheassky about these things, I'm
> genuinely curious.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Robert McGregor]

Rosie, as has often been her tactic since inundating this newsgroup,
deliberately top posts her rationalisations, discouraging contextual
discussion; while camouflaging yet another trail to her apparently
inexhaustible supply of lies and misrepresentations.

Bob

From: "rosie read and post" <readandpost@REMOVEyahoo.com>
Message-ID: <JiHAb.110855$Eq1.68516@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>AMEN!
>i really like TOP POSTING.....................the OLD rules need to
>"get with the times" there are millions of us on usenet now, don't
>you think?

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:pQzJb.201814$Eq1.128840@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ron,
> my style of writing with ...........................indicates pauses
> in my speech, sorry if that is difficult to read.
> i must admit to HATING communicating this way.
>
> i reread something that i posted and i think i should clarify it a
> little, and maybe it will be more understandable.
>
> imo, "normies" don't question their drinking, AD INFINITUM.
> if they have a question, they find an answer, i.e.: drink less,
> drink differently, etc.and carry on with their lives.
>
> alcoholics, ime, tend to "stay in the question" as they try
> "everything" and nothing works................they question,
> question, question.
> i refer you to the beginning of CHAPTER THREE in the BIG BOOK.
> http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_3.html
>
> does that make more sense?
>
>
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> "Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
> liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
> ....................................Willie Nelson
>


> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:HosJb.735175$Fm2.647677@attbi_s04...
> > On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:13:54 GMT, read and post daily!
> > <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > well ron..................we don't want to talk about my line of
> work
> > > in this forum (you'll see why shortly)
> >
> > I'm not asking about your line of work. You don't need to be a
> > clinician to cite medical authorities. I'm asking why the process
> of
> > self-actualization would imply one has a drinking problem.
> >
> > .............................................but if we
> > > could, i would assure you that my observation is shared by many!
> >
> > Clearly.
> >
> > What do all the periods mean? They make your posts hard to read.
> >
> > I'm not just trying to be a painintheassky about these things, I'm
> > genuinely curious.
> >
> > --
> > AB5DB9CC
>
>

[read and post daily!]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((ROBERT)))))))))))) ))))))))))))))))))
)))))))

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson

[JB]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:OGCJb.35139$fq1.27007@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((ROBERT)))))))))))) ))))))))))))))))))
> )))))))

Rosie,

""Let the world know you as you are, not as you think you should be,
because sooner or later, if you are posing, you will forget the pose,
and then where are you?" -- Fanny Brice

Yours in friendship

JB

[Ron]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:54:29 GMT, read and post daily!
<nospam@notmail.com> wrote:

> imo, "normies" don't question their drinking, AD INFINITUM.
> if they have a question, they find an answer, i.e.: drink less,
> drink differently, etc.and carry on with their lives.
>
> alcoholics, ime, tend to "stay in the question" as they try
> "everything" and nothing works................they question,
> question, question.
> ...
> does that make more sense?

Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in their
head? I'm not trying to diminish the importantance of people's mental
state (you don't see many vegetables with a drinking problem); but in
the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well, drinking?

In the AA meetings I've been to (speaker meetings), I've heard a lot of
different stories. I haven't noticed very many common threads. I've
met people of all upbringings, educations, careers, ages, ethnicities,
sexes, socioeconomic status, and so on. The problem doesn't
discriminate. The only thing I've seen people have in common is an
exaggerated propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol. That's
why I raise an eyebrow when I read things like 'alcoholics are like
this', or 'alcoholics are like that'.

OK, so while I'm bugging you, what about those parenthesis? What are
they supposed to mean? I'm not trying to pick on you, but when you
invent your own conventions, it's kinda hard for other people to know
what you're getting at..

((((((((((rosie))))))))))

--
AB5DB9CC

[read and post daily!]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:ayEJb.724122$HS4.5372621@attbi_s01...

>
> Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
> quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in
their
> head?

no, in fact, imo, its just the opposite......................it is
what happens to us mentally/emotionally WHEN we drink, that is our
common bond.


(alcoholics....................egomaniacs with inferiority
complexes!)



>.................... but in
> the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well,
drinking?
>

no, imo, if drinking were the problem, then "putting the plug" in
the jug would solve it, but alas, it doesn't.
that is why after becoming dry, many folks turn to AA or other
support groups, to begin work on the emotional wreakage.





>.................... The only thing I've seen people have in
common is an
> exaggerated propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol.

speakers that do "drunkaloges" are not always helpful imo.
i could stand up there and BORE you to death with my drinking
stories, or i can share with you HOW IT WORKS for me in sobriety .

of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing those
drunkalogues, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.



>
> OK, so while I'm bugging you, what about those parenthesis?


((((((((((((((((((those are hugs))))))))))))))))))))

rosie
;)

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:16:23 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam>
wrote:]

> OK, so while I'm bugging you, what about those parenthesis? What are
> they supposed to mean? I'm not trying to pick on you, but when you
> invent your own conventions, it's kinda hard for other people to know
> what you're getting at..
>
> ((((((((((rosie))))))))))

It means "hugs". It's a UseNet convebtion that's been around
for a long time, although it is not frequently used.

[Robert McGregor]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:lOGJb.6288$VV4.2996@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:ayEJb.724122$HS4.5372621@attbi_s01...
>
> >
> > Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
> > quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in
> their
> > head?

Alcoholics Anonymous page xxv
" We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol
on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the
phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the
average temperate drinker. These allergic types can never safely use alcohol
in any form at all; and once having formed the habit and found they connot
break it, once having lost their self-confidence, their reliance upon things
human, their problems pile up on them and become astonishingly difficult to
solve. "


>
> no, in fact, imo, its just the opposite......................it is
> what happens to us mentally/emotionally WHEN we drink, that is our
> common bond.



Reprinted in "Best Of The Grapevine." (AA's own periodical)
Slips and Human Nature
by William Duncan Silkworth, MD

January 1947

"It is very wrong to consider many of the personality traits observed
in liquor addicts as peculiar to the alcoholic. Emotional and mental
quirks are classified as symptoms of alcoholism merely because
alcoholics have them, yet those same quirks can be found among
nonalcoholics, too. "

>
>
> (alcoholics....................egomaniacs with inferiority
> complexes!)
>
>
>
> >.................... but in
> > the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well,
> drinking?
> >
>
> no, imo, if drinking were the problem, then "putting the plug" in
> the jug would solve it, but alas, it doesn't.
> that is why after becoming dry, many folks turn to AA or other
> support groups, to begin work on the emotional wreakage.

http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html

>
>
>
>
>
> >.................... The only thing I've seen people have in
> common is an
> > exaggerated propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol.
>
> speakers that do "drunkaloges" are not always helpful imo.
> i could stand up there and BORE you to death with my drinking
> stories, or i can share with you HOW IT WORKS for me in sobriety .
>
> of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing those
> drunkalogues, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.
>
>
>
> >
> > OK, so while I'm bugging you, what about those parenthesis?
>
>
> ((((((((((((((((((those are hugs))))))))))))))))))))
>


Regardless of being hugs or her cyber dildo
((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))) rosie knows I despise them.

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%0iJa.101914$Xl.1866479@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > It's a pity you continue posting your smarmy crap here..............
> > Bob
>
> i'm not leaving bob, but i am quite sure that you will....................
> people with "troll like" behavior always do!

Bob

[read and post daily!]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bt7fpe$47jh2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> ((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))) rosie knows I despise them.
>
>


no you don't..............................you big faker, you!

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((robert))))))))))))))))) )))))))))

[Robert McGregor]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:_rHJb.6499$VV4.4933@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bt7fpe$47jh2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > ((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))) rosie knows I despise them.
> >
> >
>
>
> no you don't..............................you big faker, you!
>
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((robert))))))))))))))))) )))))))))
>
>

The muculent embrace of the grim reaper!

Bob

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:S%Fta.4797$dl6.266093@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> i have a private practice and take care of those who have difficulty
>staying sober, after attendance in treatments
> and/or recovery programs

[read and post daily!]

i can just see the BIG SMILE on your
face..............................
;)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson
REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME
****VOTE****

















"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bt7hp5$47an2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
> news:_rHJb.6499$VV4.4933@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
message
> > news:bt7fpe$47jh2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > ((((((((((((((((( )))))))))))))))))))) rosie knows I despise
them.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > no you don't..............................you big faker, you!
> >
> > (((((((((((((((((((((((((((robert))))))))))))))))) )))))))))
> >
> >
>
> The muculent embrace of the grim reaper!
>
> Bob
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:S%Fta.4797$dl6.266093@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > i have a private practice and take care of those who have
difficulty
> >staying sober, after attendance in treatments
> > and/or recovery programs
>
>

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bt7hp5$47an2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
<snip>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:S%Fta.4797$dl6.266093@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > i have a private practice and take care of those who have
difficulty
> >staying sober, after attendance in treatments
> > and/or recovery programs
>
Bob,

I believe that you have posted incorrect info and hope you will know
why I think this.

Yours

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bt7n0c$34q$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bt7hp5$47an2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> <snip>
> > "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:S%Fta.4797$dl6.266093@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > i have a private practice and take care of those who have
> difficulty
> > >staying sober, after attendance in treatments
> > > and/or recovery programs
> >
> Bob,
>
> I believe that you have posted incorrect info and hope you will know
> why I think this.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
>

JB, unless you enlighten us, I have no idea what your hope is here, but
thanks anyway for mentioning my inadvertent error.

The pertinent message ID is 5Qdsa.61652$YE2.1120895@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com
instead of the incorrect message ID I had mistakenly pasted.

Bob

[read and post daily!]

oh my god..............is he/she still up to "no good"?
;)
ROTFLMAO!
--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson
REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME
****VOTE****

















"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bt7se0$49rar$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bt7n0c$34q$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
message
> > news:bt7hp5$47an2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > <snip>
> > > "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
> > > news:S%Fta.4797$dl6.266093@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > i have a private practice and take care of those who have
> > difficulty
> > > >staying sober, after attendance in treatments
> > > > and/or recovery programs
> > >
> > Bob,
> >
> > I believe that you have posted incorrect info and hope you will
know
> > why I think this.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
> JB, unless you enlighten us, I have no idea what your hope is
here, but
> thanks anyway for mentioning my inadvertent error.
>
> The pertinent message ID is
5Qdsa.61652$YE2.1120895@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com
> instead of the incorrect message ID I had mistakenly pasted.
>
> Bob
>
>

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bt7se0$49rar$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bt7n0c$34q$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>
> > I believe that you have posted incorrect info and hope you will
know
> > why I think this.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> JB, unless you enlighten us, I have no idea what your hope is here,
but
> thanks anyway for mentioning my inadvertent error.
>
<snip>
> Bob
>
Hi,

Last December posts which cast doubt on Rosie's claims to be a drugs
and alcohol counsellor with her own practice appeared on several NGs
Since then, Rosie has stopped making such claims. I think she's acted
wisely.

FWIW, after sending my reply, I immediately regretted having done so.

Best regards

JB

[JB]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:BFKJb.41000$fq1.1320@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> oh my god..............is he/she still up to "no good"?
> ;)
> ROTFLMAO!
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie

Hi,

I admit to not always making wise decisions and when I don't I am
sometimes willing to admit it. When admitting to having been foolish
I often feel awkward and/or embarrassed and afterwards worry about
whether I've acted wisely and what people might be thinking of me. I
have to sometimes convince myself that how I feel is a small price to
pay for a clear conscience.

These days I believe that in order to progress further in recovery I
have to strive to live through each day with a clear conscience. When
I allow any negative feelings I have towards another person take
precedent over my understanding of the principles for living that are
set out in AA's 12 Step programme, my conscience is not clear. At
this time, it is :^))

Best regards

JB

[Bobby L.]

"read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:lOGJb.6288$VV4.2996@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:ayEJb.724122$HS4.5372621@attbi_s01...
>
> >
> > Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
> > quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in
> their
> > head?
>
> no, in fact, imo, its just the opposite......................it is
> what happens to us mentally/emotionally WHEN we drink, that is our
> common bond.
>
>
> (alcoholics....................egomaniacs with inferiority
> complexes!)
>
>
>
> >.................... but in
> > the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well,
> drinking?
> >
>
> no, imo, if drinking were the problem, then "putting the plug" in
> the jug would solve it, but alas, it doesn't.
> that is why after becoming dry, many folks turn to AA or other
> support groups, to begin work on the emotional wreakage.
>
>
>
>
>
> >.................... The only thing I've seen people have in
> common is an
> > exaggerated propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol.
>
> speakers that do "drunkaloges" are not always helpful imo.
> i could stand up there and BORE you to death with my drinking
> stories, or i can share with you HOW IT WORKS for me in sobriety .
>
> of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing those
> drunkalogues, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.
>
>


I think it is supremely important that I hear the "how it was" -- I need to
know the speaker really understands what he/she is talking about. I have
found that those who "Bore" me, will bore me no matter what they are talking
about. Some folks do not want to talk about "how it was" -- especially
their own "how it was" -- And if you do not share part of how you got here
then perhaps I will not have to share how I got here -- I feel this allows
too many to hold on to that uniqueness many alcoholics feel they have.
It is terribly deflating to discover we are just one of many and the
problems we have elevated to catastrophe are just reruns of someone else's
experience. However, that is where recovery is found - in the reruns - as
that is where the fellowship first appears.
Of course I also want to hear "what happened" and "what it is like now"
whether you did it with AA or another way - but no story worth hearing ever
started in the middle.

Bobby L

[rosie r+p]

as i posted bobbie, "imo" drunkaloges are not always helpful.

> > of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing
those
> > drunkaloges, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.

when a newcomer enters the room, at any of the meetings i go to, we
always have a "FIRST STEP" meeting, where we can share **WHAT IT WAS
LIKE, WHAT HAPPENED, AND HOW IT IS NOW**

being able to identify was important for me, but my identification
came from HOW THEY WERE FEELING, rather than how much booze they
drank!

ymmv and it obviously does!
:)




> I think it is supremely important that I hear the "how it was" --
I need to
> know the speaker really understands what he/she is talking about.
I have
> found that those who "Bore" me, will bore me no matter what they
are talking
> about. Some folks do not want to talk about "how it was" --
especially
> their own "how it was" -- And if you do not share part of how you
got here
> then perhaps I will not have to share how I got here -- I feel
this allows
> too many to hold on to that uniqueness many alcoholics feel they
have.
> It is terribly deflating to discover we are just one of many and
the
> problems we have elevated to catastrophe are just reruns of
someone else's
> experience. However, that is where recovery is found - in the
reruns - as
> that is where the fellowship first appears.
> Of course I also want to hear "what happened" and "what it is like
now"
> whether you did it with AA or another way - but no story worth
hearing ever
> started in the middle.
>
> Bobby L
>

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Hell they won't lie to me/ Not on my own damn TV/ But how much is a
liar's word worth/ And whatever happened to peace on earth?"
.....................................Willie Nelson
REGIME CHANGE BEGINS AT HOME
****VOTE****



"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:GQVJb.6223$vO5.2401@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "read and post daily!" <nospam@notmail.com> wrote in message
> news:lOGJb.6288$VV4.2996@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:ayEJb.724122$HS4.5372621@attbi_s01...
> >
> > >
> > > Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity
and
> > > quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in
> > their
> > > head?
> >
> > no, in fact, imo, its just the opposite......................it
is
> > what happens to us mentally/emotionally WHEN we drink, that is
our
> > common bond.
> >
> >
> > (alcoholics....................egomaniacs with inferiority
> > complexes!)
> >
> >
> >
> > >.................... but in
> > > the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well,
> > drinking?
> > >
> >
> > no, imo, if drinking were the problem, then "putting the plug"
in
> > the jug would solve it, but alas, it doesn't.
> > that is why after becoming dry, many folks turn to AA or other
> > support groups, to begin work on the emotional wreakage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >.................... The only thing I've seen people have in
> > common is an
> > > exaggerated propensity to overindulge their thirst for
alcohol.
> >
> > speakers that do "drunkaloges" are not always helpful imo.
> > i could stand up there and BORE you to death with my drinking
> > stories, or i can share with you HOW IT WORKS for me in sobriety
..
> >
> > of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing
those
> > drunkalogues, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.
> >
> >
>

>
>
>

[Ron]

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:50:26 -0600, read and post daily! <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:ayEJb.724122$HS4.5372621@attbi_s01...

>> Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
>> quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in
>> their head?

> no, in fact, imo, its just the opposite......................it is
> what happens to us mentally/emotionally WHEN we drink, that is our
> common bond.
>
> (alcoholics....................egomaniacs with inferiority
> complexes!)

I wasn't talking about the *effects* of alcohol, which unite us all. Or
the consequences of alcoholism, for that matter. Here indeed, we find
all kinds of similarities: lost jobs, broken families, bad health,
death.

I'm am speaking of alcoholic antecedents: personality or other
characterists peculiar to alcoholics. I posit there aren't any you can
observe, and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

I'm not arguing that there is no mental component to alcoholism. Of
course there is. There's a mental component to twiddling your pinkie.
What I *am* saying is that in the limited research I've done to date,
I've found no scientific consensus regarding the cause of alcoholism.
Maybe the problem is an 'allergy'. That's an interesting hypothesis,
but one unsupported by any in-depth scientific inquiry that I can find.

Furthermore, I challenge you to point to an external observable
characteristic peculiar to alcoholics, by which you can ascertain their
alcoholic condition. Sure, you can find an alcoholic in the gutter. Of
course you can pick out an alcoholic in hindsight. That's no challenge
at all.

'Egomaniacs with inferiority complexes'? Really? If things are really
that simple, you should win the Nobel prize. Now we can nip this
problem in the bud, *before* it destroys people's lives, instead of
having to wait to clean up the mess afterwards.

>> ..but in the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well,
>> drinking?

> no, imo, if drinking were the problem, then "putting the plug" in the
> jug would solve it, but alas, it doesn't. that is why after becoming
> dry, many folks turn to AA or other support groups, to begin work on
> the emotional wreakage.

Sure, there's a lot of wreckage. I'm not questioning alcoholism's
reality, or it's consequences. I'm also not questioning the value of AA
or other treatment programs. I've found AA quite helpful, myself. I
could do without the religious overtones; but I've spent a lifetime
acclimating to a world of steeples and sinners - I can deal.

>> The only thing I've seen people have in common is an exaggerated
>> propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol.

> speakers that do "drunkaloges" are not always helpful imo.
> i could stand up there and BORE you to death with my drinking
> stories, or i can share with you HOW IT WORKS for me in sobriety .
>
> of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing those
> drunkalogues, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.

I've actually been surprised at how little time the speakers I've heard
spend talking about their drinking per se. Most time is spent talking
about the things they felt were contributing factors to their problem,
or about the consequences of their behaviour, or as you say, about the
things they are doing that help them stay sober. I don't think I've
heard one person go off on a 'This is how I used to drink...' rant.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie r+p]

> 'Egomaniacs with inferiority complexes'? Really? If things are
really
> that simple, you should win the Nobel prize.

never said "things are simple".........................but i'll take
the prize when your done with it!
;)



>Now we can nip this
> problem in the bud, *before* it destroys people's lives, instead
of
> having to wait to clean up the mess afterwards.


that would be nice, and i believe will someday happen.

>
> >> The only thing I've seen people have in common is an
exaggerated
> >> propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol.

in the field of alcoholism treatment there is ALWAYS discussion
about the commonality of alcoholics.

the most frequent similarity i have noted, is the INFLATED FALSE
EGO...............based on nothing..................most have a very
poor self-image, including those who say they don't!
;)




the study of alcoholism is NOT an exact science, but with more
attention being paid to it, i believe that we will know more and
more about this disease.
we have only scratched the surface.





> I don't think I've
> heard one person go off on a 'This is how I used to drink...'
rant.


keep coming back, you will..............................
;)

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:z5_Jb.219393$8y1.823621@attbi_s52...

>
> Furthermore, I challenge you to point to an external observable
> characteristic peculiar to alcoholics, by which you can ascertain their
> alcoholic condition. Sure, you can find an alcoholic in the gutter. Of
> course you can pick out an alcoholic in hindsight. That's no challenge
> at all.

Ron, initially I drew similar conclusions to you. Apparently contemporary
scientific hope of "solving the alcohol problem" is as dependant on faith as
is religious hope.

I found through the 12 steps all the information I needed to initiate,
nurture, and sustain my own recovery. These days I no longer bother about
"saving" others, other than suggest moderation to those who have not even
attempted it. Also I occasionally relate pertinent aspects of my extensive
and successful experience as an agnostic taking those 12 steps, for the
benefit of those for whom moderation has proven impossible. (With benefit of
hindsight, I have noticed that usually "helping others" is the forte of folk
demonstrably unable to help themselves)


Other than strongly suggesting you first read the AA "Big Book" available at
your AA group, online@ http://silkworth.net/bb/contents.html or
downloadable in extremely useful searchable format @
http://www.onecom.net/michael.edwards/aa2.html the following links may
interest you

Bob


http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_15105.html

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa60.htm

http://www.holistichelp.net/alcoholism.html
"Randolph (80) contends that alcoholism is not a mental sickness, but rather
it is a symptom of advanced food allergy. In his practice he has found that
it is not the alcohol that one is addicted to it is the food source of which
the alcoholic beverage is made of. Alcoholic beverages are made of food
such as grains like barley, corn, cane or grapes. Alcoholics have a food
allergy to these. In advanced food allergy the individual craves the
allergic food. Randolph proposes that the alcoholic is craving the beverage
is made from not the alcohol itself. The alcohol serves as a catalyst to
help the food be absorbed more quickly, because alcohol is absorbed rapidly
throughout the gastrointestinal tract. This is why most alcoholics struggle
to stay sober and relapse is so common. Because, when alcoholics put the
alcohol down they are continuing to eat sugar, corn, etc., and when they eat
these foods it triggers cravings. The food itself cannot provide the quick
fix that the alcohol can provide because of its rapid absorption. "

[Ron]

On Sun, 04 Jan 2004 20:38:25 GMT, rosie r+p <readandpost@hotmail.com> wrote:

> the most frequent similarity i have noted, is the INFLATED FALSE
> EGO...............based on nothing..................most have a very
> poor self-image, including those who say they don't!
> ;)

Those patients must find their sessions very frustrating.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie r+p]

>
> Those patients must find their sessions very frustrating.
>


ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the ultimate put down!
NOT!

[John Doe]

Ron <can@the.spam> wrote in news:z5_Jb.219393$8y1.823621@attbi_s52:

> On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 15:50:26 -0600, read and post daily!
> <nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
>> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
>> news:ayEJb.724122$HS4.5372621@attbi_s01...
>
>>> Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
>>> quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in
>>> their head?
>
>> no, in fact, imo, its just the opposite......................it is
>> what happens to us mentally/emotionally WHEN we drink, that is our
>> common bond.
>>
>> (alcoholics....................egomaniacs with inferiority
>> complexes!)
>
> I wasn't talking about the *effects* of alcohol, which unite us all.
> Or the consequences of alcoholism, for that matter. Here indeed, we
> find all kinds of similarities: lost jobs, broken families, bad
> health, death.
>
> I'm am speaking of alcoholic antecedents: personality or other
> characterists peculiar to alcoholics. I posit there aren't any you
> can observe, and I challenge you to prove me wrong.
>
> I'm not arguing that there is no mental component to alcoholism. Of
> course there is. There's a mental component to twiddling your pinkie.
> What I *am* saying is that in the limited research I've done to date,
> I've found no scientific consensus regarding the cause of alcoholism.
> Maybe the problem is an 'allergy'. That's an interesting hypothesis,
> but one unsupported by any in-depth scientific inquiry that I can
> find.
>
> Furthermore, I challenge you to point to an external observable
> characteristic peculiar to alcoholics, by which you can ascertain
> their alcoholic condition. Sure, you can find an alcoholic in the
> gutter. Of course you can pick out an alcoholic in hindsight. That's
> no challenge at all.
>
> 'Egomaniacs with inferiority complexes'? Really? If things are
> really that simple, you should win the Nobel prize. Now we can nip
> this problem in the bud, *before* it destroys people's lives, instead
> of having to wait to clean up the mess afterwards.
>
>>> ..but in the final analysis, aren't drinking problems about, well,
>>> drinking?
>
>> no, imo, if drinking were the problem, then "putting the plug" in the
>> jug would solve it, but alas, it doesn't. that is why after becoming
>> dry, many folks turn to AA or other support groups, to begin work on
>> the emotional wreakage.
>
> Sure, there's a lot of wreckage. I'm not questioning alcoholism's
> reality, or it's consequences. I'm also not questioning the value of
> AA or other treatment programs. I've found AA quite helpful, myself.
> I could do without the religious overtones; but I've spent a lifetime
> acclimating to a world of steeples and sinners - I can deal.
>
>>> The only thing I've seen people have in common is an exaggerated
>>> propensity to overindulge their thirst for alcohol.
>
>> speakers that do "drunkaloges" are not always helpful imo.
>> i could stand up there and BORE you to death with my drinking
>> stories, or i can share with you HOW IT WORKS for me in sobriety .
>>
>> of course, i don't mean to minimize the importance of sharing those
>> drunkalogues, for some, it is EXACTLY what they need to hear.
>
> I've actually been surprised at how little time the speakers I've
> heard spend talking about their drinking per se. Most time is spent
> talking about the things they felt were contributing factors to their
> problem, or about the consequences of their behaviour, or as you say,
> about the things they are doing that help them stay sober. I don't
> think I've heard one person go off on a 'This is how I used to
> drink...' rant.
>

I can only speak for myself, but I found that I had decided that I was an
alcoholic who required help when my drinking problem turned into a not
drinking problem. That being said, I don't think that there are any tests
that can scientifically say that person A is alcoholic while person B is
not alcoholic. I think that if you feel you need to quit drinking, and find
that you can't, you are probably an alcoholic.



--
Live simply so that others may simply live.

[Ron]

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:22:46 +1000,
Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> http://www.holistichelp.net/alcoholism.html
> "Randolph (80) contends that alcoholism is not a mental sickness, but rather
> it is a symptom of advanced food allergy.

I do find this theory intriguing. Now that I've successfully quit
smoking, and quit drinking (so far so good anyway), the next vice I'd
probably do well to look at is over-the-counter antihistamines. I don't
take them by the dozen or anything, but I always have them around, and
use them regularly to relieve allergic symptoms.

I grew up on a hard-grain farm in the midwest. When I was a kid, I'd
play in the back of the grain trucks while my dad was unloading the
combine hopper. I'd stand directly under the auger and have hundreds of
bushels of wheat, corn, etc. pound down on my head. When I was older, I
spent many many hours in hot dusty graineries shoveling grain out of the
corners to be augered into a truck. I drove a combine up and down the
fields in a in a cloud of pulverized plant dust. Point being, I'm about
as overexposed to grain as you can get as a kid.

I certainly have allergies. Without prescription strength medication in
the spring, I'm almost completely useless. The rest of the year I'm
o.k. I just pop antihistamines whenever something seems to be bothering
me. I've always wondered about food allergies. I know certain apples
make my throat constrict. Out of curiousity, I just ate a slice of
multi-grain bread... I'm not jumping out of my chair to go get a pint
or anything; but I think if I had one, it would wash down pretty
well.. ;) I do generally avoid whole grain bread and grapes, though...
Not because of the taste, either. I've never really thought about it...

The hypoglycemia bit is interesting also. I have had, for lack of a
better term, 'panic attacks' on occasion. They are very alarming when
they're happening. I feel like I'm not going to be able to breath
enough air. I don't hyperventilate or anything, but breathing normally
feels like breathing in a plastic bag. Big adrenaline dump. Panicky,
but weak. They always pass in about half an hour, and then I feel
completely fine. I've had myself taken to the emergency room on a
couple of occasions, to see if they could pin something down, but by the
time I arrived, the episode was over. They've done a battery of tests,
including my blood sugar level, but the tests always come back o.k.
However, the info at the following URL indicates that reactive
hypoglycemia must be tested for /while you are having symptoms/. My
grandfather and father both had/have late onset diabetes...

http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/hypoglycemia/index.htm

> In his practice he has found that it is not the alcohol that one is
> addicted to it is the food source of which the alcoholic beverage is
> made of. Alcoholic beverages are made of food such as grains like
> barley, corn, cane or grapes. Alcoholics have a food allergy to
> these.

I wonder if he means *all* alcoholics? I'm also wondering how such a
food allergy manifests itself. I don't break out in hives or get stuffy
or anything..

Oy! I think I just make this NG's word quota for the month! Time for a
breather - see ya later.. :O

--
AB5DB9CC

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Z66Kb.222620$8y1.903107@attbi_s52...
> On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 08:22:46 +1000,
> Robert McGregor <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > http://www.holistichelp.net/alcoholism.html
> > "Randolph (80) contends that alcoholism is not a mental sickness, but
rather
> > it is a symptom of advanced food allergy.
>
> I do find this theory intriguing. Now that I've successfully quit
> smoking, and quit drinking (so far so good anyway), the next vice I'd
> probably do well to look at is over-the-counter antihistamines. I don't
> take them by the dozen or anything, but I always have them around, and
> use them regularly to relieve allergic symptoms.
>
> I grew up on a hard-grain farm in the midwest. When I was a kid, I'd
> play in the back of the grain trucks while my dad was unloading the
> combine hopper. I'd stand directly under the auger and have hundreds of
> bushels of wheat, corn, etc. pound down on my head. When I was older, I
> spent many many hours in hot dusty graineries shoveling grain out of the
> corners to be augered into a truck. I drove a combine up and down the
> fields in a in a cloud of pulverized plant dust. Point being, I'm about
> as overexposed to grain as you can get as a kid.
>
> I certainly have allergies. Without prescription strength medication in
> the spring, I'm almost completely useless. The rest of the year I'm
> o.k. I just pop antihistamines whenever something seems to be bothering
> me. I've always wondered about food allergies. I know certain apples
> make my throat constrict. Out of curiousity, I just ate a slice of
> multi-grain bread... I'm not jumping out of my chair to go get a pint
> or anything; but I think if I had one, it would wash down pretty
> well.. ;) I do generally avoid whole grain bread and grapes, though...
> Not because of the taste, either. I've never really thought about it...
>
> The hypoglycemia bit is interesting also. I have had, for lack of a
> better term, 'panic attacks' on occasion. They are very alarming when
> they're happening. I feel like I'm not going to be able to breath
> enough air. I don't hyperventilate or anything, but breathing normally
> feels like breathing in a plastic bag. Big adrenaline dump. Panicky,
> but weak. They always pass in about half an hour, and then I feel
> completely fine. I've had myself taken to the emergency room on a
> couple of occasions, to see if they could pin something down, but by the
> time I arrived, the episode was over. They've done a battery of tests,
> including my blood sugar level, but the tests always come back o.k.
> However, the info at the following URL indicates that reactive
> hypoglycemia must be tested for /while you are having symptoms/. My
> grandfather and father both had/have late onset diabetes...
>
> http://diabetes.niddk.nih.gov/dm/pubs/hypoglycemia/index.htm
>
> > In his practice he has found that it is not the alcohol that one is
> > addicted to it is the food source of which the alcoholic beverage is
> > made of. Alcoholic beverages are made of food such as grains like
> > barley, corn, cane or grapes. Alcoholics have a food allergy to
> > these.
>
> I wonder if he means *all* alcoholics? I'm also wondering how such a
> food allergy manifests itself. I don't break out in hives or get stuffy
> or anything..
>
> Oy! I think I just make this NG's word quota for the month! Time for a
> breather - see ya later.. :O
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

Sorry, I know nothing about antihistamines, but FH, (gramps) next door at
alt.recovery.aa http://blank.org/link/?q=1073302043 has expressed an
interest in hypoglycaemia. Guessing he could probably give you links to
opinion/research that would interest you.

If I ever did quit smoking, I would probably need a lot less time off for
breathers.

PS. There is no universal agreement on who "all alcoholics" actually are;-)

Bob

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:37:33 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>Is there any clinical basis for the oft repeated claim that anyone who
>questions their drinking has a problem?

No.
--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:27:03 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 01:13:54 GMT, read and post daily!
><nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
>
>> well ron..................we don't want to talk about my line of work
>> in this forum (you'll see why shortly)
>
>I'm not asking about your line of work. You don't need to be a
>clinician to cite medical authorities. I'm asking why the process of
>self-actualization would imply one has a drinking problem.
>
>.............................................but if we
>> could, i would assure you that my observation is shared by many!
>
>Clearly.

Not clear at all. Let's say you use AA attendance as a guide: those
who are regular attendees at AA are probably there because a) they
have a booze problem and b) they once questioned it. Everyone else in
the room seems to say the same, therefore it can be easy to make a
leap of logic to say that all those who question their drinking must
have a problem. It's just like the logical fallacy of "all cats have
4 legs, my dog has 4 legs, therefore my dog is a cat".

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 19:16:23 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 13:54:29 GMT, read and post daily!
><nospam@notmail.com> wrote:
>
>> imo, "normies" don't question their drinking, AD INFINITUM.
>> if they have a question, they find an answer, i.e.: drink less,
>> drink differently, etc.and carry on with their lives.

This would be true. Alcoholics tend to rely on "will power" to handle
either drinking or sobriety, and ego (pride) tends to keep them from
admitting the need for help when that will-power is curiously lacking
at times.

Those who were able to quit on "will power" alone, or had no such
problem in the first place, seem to find such people baffling.

>> alcoholics, ime, tend to "stay in the question" as they try
>> "everything" and nothing works................they question,
>> question, question.
>> ...
>> does that make more sense?
>
>Yes. Ultimately, though, isn't alcoholism about the quantity and
>quality of someone's drinking, more so than what's going on in their
>head?

No, though it would depend on your definition of "alcoholism".

Part of the difficulty with finding a solution to a problem is in
knowing what that problem actually is.

If my problem was alcohol, I would have simply quit drinking. No
recovery etc. would be required. I'd just quit. And I did.

No, my problem is that I drank again despite the firmest of decisions
not to.

I later learned that this is precisely AA's written definition of
"alcoholic". It's 1. an inability to control (moderate) drinking and
2. an inability to remain sober.

I don't often hear this second criteria referred to in AA meetings. I
suspect that a big reason for this is that many speakers haven't
understood it, erroneously thinking that "our lives had become
unmanageable" has anything at all to do with drinking. Even whilst a
dog is drunk, his life will be demonstrably unmanageable at the time.
So why admit it separately to powerlessness over booze, unless that's
not what's really being admitted?

An alcoholic's life is emotionally unmanageable. He's emotionally
"alcohol dependent". At times he has no effective mental defence
against the first drink. Those who do not have this emotional
dependency are technically in a separate category of "alcohol abuser".

The line between "alcohol abuse" and "alcohol dependency" is very much
an individual thing, something each must decide for themselves.

--
Blue Moon