Re: Is A.A. a religious society? [Archive] - Drug & Alcohol Rehab Forums & News

Robert McGregor

06-28-2003, 02:00 AM

"Cartman" <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e96cnV5YgutKZWGjXTWc-w@speakeasy.net...
> 2. Came to believe that a >>>>>>Power<<<<<<<<< greater than ourselves
> could restore us to sanity.
>
> 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
God
> >>>>> as we understood Him<<<<<<.
>
> Not exactly the equivalent of the Crusades.....Arguably, the textbook
> definition you provided describes some aspects of A.A. However, this is
more
> a semantic argument as I initially took the question "Is A.A. a religious
> society" to mean "What, if any, religious denomination does A.A. subscribe
> to".
>
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misanthrope
>
> misanthrope
>
> n : someone who dislikes people in general
>
>

What other religious denomination, apart from AA, subscribes to other
religious denominations? Has it not occurred to you that for many AAers, AA
is a religion in it's own right, while for many other AAers, it's not a
religion at all?

re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as
creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

Does your quote indicate you are a misanthrope attempting to limit Usenet
discussion to your choice of semantics?

Bob

Kathy

06-28-2003, 10:29 AM

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:00:09 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Cartman" <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:e96cnV5YgutKZWGjXTWc-w@speakeasy.net...
>> 2. Came to believe that a >>>>>>Power<<<<<<<<< greater than ourselves
>> could restore us to sanity.
>>
>> 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
>God
>> >>>>> as we understood Him<<<<<<.
>>
>> Not exactly the equivalent of the Crusades.....Arguably, the textbook
>> definition you provided describes some aspects of A.A. However, this is
>more
>> a semantic argument as I initially took the question "Is A.A. a religious
>> society" to mean "What, if any, religious denomination does A.A. subscribe
>> to".
>>
>>
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misanthrope
>>
>> misanthrope
>>
>> n : someone who dislikes people in general
>>
>>
>
>
>
>What other religious denomination, apart from AA, subscribes to other
>religious denominations? Has it not occurred to you that for many AAers, AA
>is a religion in it's own right, while for many other AAers, it's not a
>religion at all?
>
>re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
>n.
>
>Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as
>creator and governor of the universe.
>A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
>
>Does your quote indicate you are a misanthrope attempting to limit Usenet
>discussion to your choice of semantics?
>
>Bob
>
And the folks who like to classify it as a religion also tend to
classify AA as a cult too.

Kathy G.

Mias

06-28-2003, 01:14 PM

Dear God
It is my humble opinion that the people in AA is overall of such faith and
fiber that they will allow people to become sober irrespective of their
religious beliefs or non-beliefs and then to follow their own path. A rule
of thumb to me is 'Do not preach religion or God to people. If others can
not see the gifts and rewards of your faith in your daily living and you as
a person it is just not there.' Suppose my answer to you would be to not ask
questions about religion but rather live it out.
Kind regards
Mias
<LorrySun@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c_ScnZna2ZovU2ajU-KYvA@giganews.com...
>
>
>

Cartman

06-28-2003, 01:21 PM

No Robert. Simply a jest at you. Seems you are extremely aggressive and
defensive with everyone (including those who agree with you).

- Cartman

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bdjele$tql7n$1@ID-49289.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Cartman" <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e96cnV5YgutKZWGjXTWc-w@speakeasy.net...
> > 2. Came to believe that a >>>>>>Power<<<<<<<<< greater than ourselves
> > could restore us to sanity.
> >
> > 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of
> God
> > >>>>> as we understood Him<<<<<<.
> >
> > Not exactly the equivalent of the Crusades.....Arguably, the textbook
> > definition you provided describes some aspects of A.A. However, this is
> more
> > a semantic argument as I initially took the question "Is A.A. a
religious
> > society" to mean "What, if any, religious denomination does A.A.
subscribe
> > to".
> >
> >
> > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=misanthrope
> >
> > misanthrope
> >
> > n : someone who dislikes people in general
> >
> >
>
>
>
> What other religious denomination, apart from AA, subscribes to other
> religious denominations? Has it not occurred to you that for many AAers,
AA
> is a religion in it's own right, while for many other AAers, it's not a
> religion at all?
>
> re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
> n.
>
> Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as
> creator and governor of the universe.
> A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and
worship.
>
> Does your quote indicate you are a misanthrope attempting to limit Usenet
> discussion to your choice of semantics?
>
> Bob
>
>

Robert McGregor

06-28-2003, 02:49 PM

"Kathy" <kasia@netsync.net> wrote in message
news:41drfv89bqfqmrmifbdtavr7n6ld8kgtnp@4ax.com...
> >
> And the folks who like to classify it as a religion also tend to
> classify AA as a cult too.
>
With the exception of those dangling on the smarm of their God outshining
"sponsor." How could they possibly see it as a cult?

Bob

Robert McGregor

06-28-2003, 02:51 PM

"Mias" <emias@netactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:bdklvg$3nf$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
> Dear God

Rosie, it's for you;-)

Bob

Cartman

06-28-2003, 02:54 PM

No Robert. Your response is now to attack my comprehension abilities?
"Seems" you can't comprehend a joke. Comprehend this...(quoting
you).....fuck off......fuckwit.

- Cartman

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bdkr3i$tu3el$1@ID-49289.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Cartman" <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:v9edneGkA9rwRmCjRTvU2Q@speakeasy.net...
> > No Robert. Simply a jest at you. Seems you are extremely aggressive and
> > defensive with everyone (including those who agree with you).
> >
> > - Cartman
> >
>
> Seems? Comprehensively challenged.are you?
>
> Bob
>
>

s76fitz

07-03-2003, 11:04 PM

Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:12:53 GMT , Fri 27 Jun 2003 01:12:53a

> "the only
> requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop
> drinking"

++++++++++++++

www.agnosticAAnyc.org

Blue Moon

07-04-2003, 01:39 AM

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 04:04:58 GMT, s76fitz <s76fitz@notmail.com> wrote:

>Fri, 27 Jun 2003 05:12:53 GMT , Fri 27 Jun 2003 01:12:53a
>
>> "the only
>> requirement for membership in AA is a desire to stop
>> drinking"
>
>++++++++++++++
>
>www.agnosticAAnyc.org

An excellent resource, particularly the Agnostic 12 Steps.

--
Blue Moon

Dave Bachman

11-04-2004, 12:27 PM

Don't know, don't care.
Just glad that I'm not compelled to get drunk today.
Why is that you might ask? I started with a looooooong
look in the mirror.

...db

<LorrySun@aol.com> wrote in message news:c_ScnZna2ZovU2ajU-KYvA@giganews.com...
:
:
:

joseph white

11-05-2004, 06:54 PM

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:12:53 -0400, "Cartman"
<omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote:

>No, AA is a fellowship of people seeking recovery from alcoholism. While
>some choose to characterize their Higher Power using more traditional
>religious beliefs, there is NO requirement to practice religion or subscribe
>to any religious belief systems. Roughly paraphrased, "the only requirement
>for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking".

....and being open to being brainwashed with A.A.'s credo which
absolves you of your personal responsibility in this matter by their
credo that you are powerless over alcohol and cannot free yourself
from its control over your life without seeking the assistance of some
external "higher power".

I hear all these guys at AA meetings thanking God for His help in
freeing them from alcohol, but I know that no such "higher power"
exists, and these poor guys cannot give themselves credit for what
they've actually accomplished themselves by just getting their mind in
the proper place, and joining a support group.

The credo of AA is that the individual is nothing without some
mysterious, non-existent "higher power".

What's lamentable is that these guys have solved their own alcohol
problem, but AA's credo doesn't allow them to properly credit
themselves for it.

Also, the basic assertion that "alcoholism is a disease" is another
step AA takes to shift the responsibility of a guy's alcoholism from
himself. AA's credo is that you, as an individual, are powerless. I
reject this assertion.

The problem's responsibility rests squarely upon the alcoholic, and so
does his freeing himself from it. If a person can more easily free
himself from alcoholism by feeling he's getting divine help, I have no
qualms with his taking any course that works for him, but it's
lamentable that in taking such a course, he cannot thank his own self
for being free.

11-06-2004, 05:47 AM

"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
news:cc6oo05r2bg0u56jp19k3cjqknr20er0k3@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 01:12:53 -0400, "Cartman"
> <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >No, AA is a fellowship of people seeking recovery from alcoholism.
While
> >some choose to characterize their Higher Power using more
traditional
> >religious beliefs, there is NO requirement to practice religion or
subscribe
> >to any religious belief systems. Roughly paraphrased, "the only
requirement
> >for membership in AA is a desire to stop drinking".
>
> ...and being open to being brainwashed with A.A.'s credo which
> absolves you of your personal responsibility in this matter by their
> credo that you are powerless over alcohol and cannot free yourself
> from its control over your life without seeking the assistance of
some
> external "higher power".

OK. When I quit drinking in 1994, I had the attitude that no-one
other than myself could enable me to solve my drinking problem. I had
developed this attitude after concluding that none of the doctors nor
the community psychiatric nurse nor the professional drug and alcohol
advisor that I had been to see nor the Antabuse and anti-depressants
that I had taken had been able to keep me from not drinking for more
than a relatively short period of time. I do not think that I would
have sought this assistance if I had not thought (subconsciously)
that, probably, only a Power or Powers greater than myself would be
able to keep me from not drinking. When I concluded that these
"Higher Powers" hadn't given me the assistance that had resulted in
solving my drinking problem it did not cross my mind that
maybe this was because I wasn't willing to not drink when I felt like
drinking.

From 1994 - 2002, when I either desperately wanted to drink or merely
fancied one, I chose to not pick up. When I drank again it was when I
was feeling relaxed and had the thought that after 8 years of not
drinking I would find it easy to stay in control of my drinking if
I started to drink again. Soon after starting to drink again, I
concluded that I could not stay in control of alcohol while I
continued to drink it.

When on 10th June 2003 I again decided to quit drinking, I did not
believe that I already possessed the knowledge that would - if I used
it - enable me to achieve my goal of not drinking again. This
willingness to accept that I did not have the required knowledge made
it possible for me to again go in search of it. This time I hoped to
find it by engaging in conversations with alcoholics in recovery. I
chose to seek their help because I no longer thought doctors and
professional councillors had the answer to my problem. By so doing, I
was again hoping to find a power greater than I appeared to myself to
be. By becoming willing to listen to what these alcoholics said and
also take on board anything they said that I thought could be helpful
to me, not only have I not had a drink for almost 17 months but also
I've developed the abilities to look at life and handle it in a
different way to how I used to. When I use these abilities, often, I
am enabled to not think about having a drink at times when once I
might have done. For these reasons, at this time, I consider
alcoholics in recovery who teach me lessons and remind me of what I
ought to be doing to not drink as one of my Higher Powers.

BTW, nowadays, I know that if I choose to drink again I ought to
accept full responsibility for my action rather than lay the blame for
it on external influences (eg people annoying me or a death in the
family). I've acquired this knowledge through AA.

JB

I hear all these guys at AA meetings thanking God for His help in
> freeing them from alcohol, but I know that no such "higher power"
> exists, and these poor guys cannot give themselves credit for what
> they've actually accomplished themselves by just getting their mind
in
> the proper place, and joining a support group.
>
> The credo of AA is that the individual is nothing without some
> mysterious, non-existent "higher power".
>
> What's lamentable is that these guys have solved their own alcohol
> problem, but AA's credo doesn't allow them to properly credit
> themselves for it.
>
> Also, the basic assertion that "alcoholism is a disease" is another
> step AA takes to shift the responsibility of a guy's alcoholism from
> himself. AA's credo is that you, as an individual, are powerless. I
> reject this assertion.
>
> The problem's responsibility rests squarely upon the alcoholic, and
so
> does his freeing himself from it. If a person can more easily free
> himself from alcoholism by feeling he's getting divine help, I have
no
> qualms with his taking any course that works for him, but it's
> lamentable that in taking such a course, he cannot thank his own
self
> for being free.
>

rosie readandpost

11-06-2004, 07:28 AM

it seems the folks who struggle with sobriety, seem to enter
recovery with all sorts of ABSOLUTES, never taking responsibility
for their stubborness, but rather blaming others. (people, places
and things)

"this doesn't work, that doesn't work, there is no god, this is a
cult" etc etc etc

imo, it is a "set up for failure" and often just a ruse to keep
drinking.
perhaps these folks are JUST NOT DONE RUINING THEIR LIVES!

when i stopped drinking and using, (8-26-82) i was SICK AND TIRED
of being SICK AND TIRED, and surrendered in a
conversation/meditation with my HP, a very ANGRY conversation, i
might add!
;)

i went to AA because it had worked for my brother for ten years, and
to me his sobriety, was an accomplishment, that i knew he hadn't
done alone.
i ALSO knew that i could not "control my drinking" and that i had
tried everything i knew, to do so.
my brother was the ONLY person i knew at that time, who had gone to
AA.
we did not study ANY 12 step group dynamics in nursing school,(1967)
so i really didn't know anything about the organization, or its
"sister" ALANON.

i went to AA, and sat down and listened. (shy? surrendered?
emotionally exhausted?)
and because i felt like shit, both physically and emotionally, i
followed direction.
it was recommended to me that i find a sponsor. (someone who had
what i wanted) it was recommended that i work the steps with that
person.

i was given all the tools that i could handle at that time, to stay
sober.

this was not simple for me, and certainly not easy on me or my loved
ones, but treatment of ANY disease that is both emotional and
physical seldom is.

i continue to go to AA for a lot of reasons, but the most important
one, is to "be aroung people like me" in order to be of service to
newcomers, and to hear the stories of those that relapse, to make
sure that i am doing all that i can do to stay in STRONG recovery.

i have found my own higher power.
my belief in this HP sooths me, brings me peace, hope, and joy!

rosie

joseph white

11-06-2004, 10:57 AM

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:47:03 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

> By so doing, I
>was again hoping to find a power greater than I appeared to myself to
>be.

You have been brainwashed by AA into thinking you're a person
incapable of solving this alcoholism problem. You were robbed of what
that could do for your self-esteem by being convinced by AA that you
weren't able to cope with it yourself. All that "higher power"
poppycock did for you is to place your mind in the proper frame to
defeat alcohol yourself.

You did have external aid, however, those guys at AA who you felt were
rooting for you to remain sober.

I admit that AA helps a person do what he couldn't easily do himself,
but it's AA that's doing it, not a gray-beard in the clouds

BTW, no court case in which a person challenged a judge for requiring
him to attend AA on the grounds that it was really a religious
organization has failed, so many men, in spite of the protests of
some, concur that AA is a religious organization.

11-06-2004, 12:35 PM

"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
news:aavpo0h544e03598k7fjpbtekqlu64698v@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:47:03 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> > By so doing, I
> >was again hoping to find a power greater than I appeared to myself
to
> >be.
>
> You have been brainwashed by AA into thinking you're a person
> incapable of solving this alcoholism problem. You were robbed of
what
> that could do for your self-esteem by being convinced by AA that you
> weren't able to cope with it yourself.

Actually, AA teachings have given my self-esteem/sense of self-worth a
considerable boost. Two of the ways in which they have done this is
by enabling me to appreciate the importance of distinguishing that for
which I am responsible from that for which I am not and encouraging me
to keep practising making the distinction.

All that "higher power"
> poppycock did for you is to place your mind in the proper frame to
> defeat alcohol yourself.

You know for sure that I have defeated alcohol. You can see into my
future ?
>
>
> I admit that AA helps a person do what he couldn't easily do
himself,
> but it's AA that's doing it, not a gray-beard in the clouds

My HP is not a gray-beard in the clouds.
>
> BTW, no court case in which a person challenged a judge for
requiring
> him to attend AA on the grounds that it was really a religious
> organization has failed, so many men, in spite of the protests of
> some, concur that AA is a religious organization.

You're not the first person to post here that's given publicity to the
idea that AA is a religious organisation. Many who have done so
support the idea that Moderation Management can help all those who
seek to stop abusing alcohol. Probably, you won't be the last :^)

JB

joseph white

11-06-2004, 03:32 PM

On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:35:28 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>Actually, AA teachings have given my self-esteem/sense of self-worth a
>considerable boost. Two of the ways in which they have done this is
>by enabling me to appreciate the importance of distinguishing that for
>which I am responsible from that for which I am not

To consider some actions of mine not of my responsibility could easily
make me feel a higher esteem for myself, but I would rather esteem
myself for being pleased will ALL of my actions, and not being able to
escape responsibility from the ones I am not proud of by thinking
something like, "They're not my fault, but the Devil made me do that,
and I was powerless to resist him".

However, nothing I might feel should deter you from any system that
works for you.

We both agree that any system which one uses to free himself from
alcohol is certainly to be regarded very highly, even if I might hold
some reservations regarding its religious basis. I readily admit that
AA works well. It's just an especially difficult system for a
free-thinker who happens to have an alcohol problem.

Robert McGregor

11-06-2004, 04:46 PM

"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
news:nveqo097ao8fb9i0nh4so1taqi19pkt061@4ax.com...
>
> We both agree that any system which one uses to free himself from
> alcohol is certainly to be regarded very highly, even if I might
> hold
> some reservations regarding its religious basis. I readily admit
> that
> AA works well. It's just an especially difficult system for a
> free-thinker who happens to have an alcohol problem.
>
>

"especially difficult system for a free-thinker"???

hahahahaha.

Did you ever consider actually trying some free thinking yourself,
before demonstrating your closed minded prejudice here.

Bob

Robert McGregor

11-06-2004, 04:47 PM

"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
news:cc6oo05r2bg0u56jp19k3cjqknr20er0k3@4ax.com...
>
> The credo of AA is that the individual is nothing without some
> mysterious, non-existent "higher power".
>

Hahaha, thus spoke the quintessential bullshit artist, antithesis of
a free thinker;-)

"We found the Great Reality deep down within us"
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_55.htm

Robert McGregor

11-06-2004, 04:47 PM

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
message news:Jj4jd.29731$T02.20462@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i have found my own higher power.
> my belief in this HP sooths me, brings me peace, hope, and joy!
>

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>

Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.337271@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term
>experience with

>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.

>i have however had to take several different meds as each once
>finally

>"wears out" and i need to change.

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in
message

news:A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

>

> i will never be recovered..............................

Robert McGregor

11-06-2004, 04:47 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cmj3su$fe6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:aavpo0h544e03598k7fjpbtekqlu64698v@4ax.com...

>>
>> BTW, no court case in which a person challenged a judge for
> requiring
>> him to attend AA on the grounds that it was really a religious
>> organization has failed, so many men, in spite of the protests of
>> some, concur that AA is a religious organization.
>
> You're not the first person to post here that's given publicity to
> the
> idea that AA is a religious organisation. Many who have done so
> support the idea that Moderation Management can help all those who
> seek to stop abusing alcohol. Probably, you won't be the last :^)
>

Really? Along with AA's own advice to try controlled drinking
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_31.htm , I would be astounded if you
can cite even one instance of Moderation Management being promoted
here as help for "all those who seek to stop abusing alcohol."

Regarding AA being a religious organisation, AA tradition could
hardly make it any clearer.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. Belief in and reverence
for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor
of the universe.

Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition 2. For our group purpose there is but
one ultimate authority a loving God as He may express Himself in our
group conscience.

Bob

11-07-2004, 05:03 AM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2v52kbF2hcdb0U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cmj3su$fe6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
> > news:aavpo0h544e03598k7fjpbtekqlu64698v@4ax.com...
>
>
> >>
> >> BTW, no court case in which a person challenged a judge for
> > requiring
> >> him to attend AA on the grounds that it was really a religious
> >> organization has failed, so many men, in spite of the protests of
> >> some, concur that AA is a religious organization.
> >
> > You're not the first person to post here that's given publicity to
> > the
> > idea that AA is a religious organisation. Many who have done so
> > support the idea that Moderation Management can help all those who
> > seek to stop abusing alcohol. Probably, you won't be the last :^)
> >
>
> Really? Along with AA's own advice to try controlled drinking
> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_31.htm , I would be astounded if you
> can cite even one instance of Moderation Management being promoted
> here as help for "all those who seek to stop abusing alcohol."

I think it unlikely that I could find a post about MM that contains
the words "all those who seek to stop abusing alcohol"

My memories of some conversations about MM include some which enabled
me to think at the time I was replying to Joseph that MM was often
promoted by folk who found in AA much to criticise and also that their
comments appeared to be an attempt to discourage folk from going to
AA. What I've just said has reminded me that how I interpreted their
posts gave me cause to be
angry.

Your decision to challenge my statement about MM has caused me to
think that I was foolish to have made it and to have thoughts on why
that statement was a foolish one.

> Regarding AA being a religious organisation, AA tradition could
> hardly make it any clearer.
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
>
> re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. Belief in and reverence
> for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor
> of the universe.
>
> Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition 2. For our group purpose there is but
> one ultimate authority a loving God as He may express Himself in our
> group conscience.

As I said to Joseph:

"You're not the first person to post here that's given publicity to
the idea that AA is a religious organisation. .......... Probably, you
won't be the last :^)

ATB

JB

CoLoNel Polyps

11-07-2004, 06:56 AM

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Jj4jd.29731$T02.20462@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> it seems the folks who struggle with sobriety, seem to enter
> recovery with all sorts of ABSOLUTES, never taking responsibility
> for their stubborness, but rather blaming others. (people, places
> and things)
>
> "this doesn't work, that doesn't work, there is no god, this is a
> cult" etc etc etc

AA is a cult.
I new Gov Ann Richards, Tom Clancy, George Bush, David Duke and others woh were trying to
swindle others to do as they wanted. Now I am being extorted by the state of Texas with
them harrassing me on the phone for the rest of my life calling me names.
George Bush senior drugged and interogated me while Richard Nixon looked on. Bob Dole
assaulted me with a gun as I was coming out of a secret service drug induced haze. The
secret service drugged me and helped the drunken redneck George Bush Junior chloriform me
when I was half passed out on a park bench in the Florida Keys. He said I was a Cuban spy
but I am a descendant of real patriots.
My family started the US military with George Washington and Granpa Bomb was an artist. He
had a freedom of expression exhibit going on October 1781, Yorktown with special guest
star Lord Cornwallis.

Freedom of speech is not free when you are threatened to be drugged and locked up
indefinately under religious determinations for exercising your freedom of speech.
Legal representation is just as readily available today for the poor as lions were
available to the christians during the roman empire.

I can only hope for a civil war to kill those woh seek to undermine my empowerment. Just
becasue I have not drank for 21 years does not mean I do not have to struggle with
survival in this sleazy state of our country.

rosie readandpost

11-07-2004, 08:25 AM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cmla4t$g2m$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

:
: 1. If someone reacts to something I say or do with anger or by
: laughing for example, how they react is not a matter that's within
my
: control. I may have provoked that reaction but that's where my
: responsibility for their reaction ends.
:

i think you might be a little confused here.
you ARE responsible, imo, if you lash out "to hurt" for example, and
it does indeed hurt someone!
it is not a matter of how the other person reacts.
INTENTION has a lot to do with "blame placing".
don't you agree?

: 2. I am not responsible for the deaths in old age of my
grandparents
: and father, all of whom died of natural causes. To a certain
extent,
: I am responsible for how I reacted to their deaths. For example,
if I
: had used them as an excuse to drink then I would be choosing to
drink
: and ought to accept responsibility for my choice.
:
: 3. I am not responsible for the troubles in the Middle East for
: example. If I let these troubles become for me an excuse to drink,
: then again I would be choosing to drink and ought to accept
: responsibility for my choice.
:
: I think this is the first time that I have tried to express my
: understanding of what it is I am responsible for and what I am not
and
: therefore at this time I am feeling worried about how people will
: respond to this post. So, if I now practice one of the lessons
I've
: learnt in AA, maybe I could soon find myself no longer feeling
: anxious.
:
: ATB
:
: JB
:
:
:

11-07-2004, 08:35 AM

"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
news:nveqo097ao8fb9i0nh4so1taqi19pkt061@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:35:28 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >Actually, AA teachings have given my self-esteem/sense of
self-worth a
> >considerable boost. Two of the ways in which they have done this
is
> >by enabling me to appreciate the importance of distinguishing that
for
> >which I am responsible from that for which I am not
>
> To consider some actions of mine not of my responsibility could
easily
> make me feel a higher esteem for myself, but I would rather esteem
> myself for being pleased will ALL of my actions, and not being able
to
> escape responsibility from the ones I am not proud of by thinking
> something like, "They're not my fault, but the Devil made me do
that,
> and I was powerless to resist him".

I think I have never thought that anything I've done I did because the
Devil made me do it.

When I spoke about learning how to distinguish that for which I am
responsible and that for which I am not I had in mind these ideas:

1. If someone reacts to something I say or do with anger or by
laughing for example, how they react is not a matter that's within my
control. I may have provoked that reaction but that's where my
responsibility for their reaction ends.

2. I am not responsible for the deaths in old age of my grandparents
and father, all of whom died of natural causes. To a certain extent,
I am responsible for how I reacted to their deaths. For example, if I
had used them as an excuse to drink then I would be choosing to drink
and ought to accept responsibility for my choice.

3. I am not responsible for the troubles in the Middle East for
example. If I let these troubles become for me an excuse to drink,
then again I would be choosing to drink and ought to accept
responsibility for my choice.

I think this is the first time that I have tried to express my
understanding of what it is I am responsible for and what I am not and
therefore at this time I am feeling worried about how people will
respond to this post. So, if I now practice one of the lessons I've
learnt in AA, maybe I could soon find myself no longer feeling
anxious.

ATB

JB

Gail

11-07-2004, 09:45 AM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cmktni$pm6$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2v52kbF2hcdb0U1@uni-berlin.de...
>>
>> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
>> news:cmj3su$fe6$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> >
>> > "joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
>> > news:aavpo0h544e03598k7fjpbtekqlu64698v@4ax.com...
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> BTW, no court case in which a person challenged a judge for
>> > requiring
>> >> him to attend AA on the grounds that it was really a religious
>> >> organization has failed, so many men, in spite of the protests of
>> >> some, concur that AA is a religious organization.
>> >
>> > You're not the first person to post here that's given publicity to
>> > the
>> > idea that AA is a religious organisation. Many who have done so
>> > support the idea that Moderation Management can help all those who
>> > seek to stop abusing alcohol. Probably, you won't be the last :^)
>> >
>>
>> Really? Along with AA's own advice to try controlled drinking
>> http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_31.htm , I would be astounded if you
>> can cite even one instance of Moderation Management being promoted
>> here as help for "all those who seek to stop abusing alcohol."
>
> I think it unlikely that I could find a post about MM that contains
> the words "all those who seek to stop abusing alcohol"
>
> My memories of some conversations about MM include some which enabled
> me to think at the time I was replying to Joseph that MM was often
> promoted by folk who found in AA much to criticise and also that their
> comments appeared to be an attempt to discourage folk from going to
> AA. What I've just said has reminded me that how I interpreted their
> posts gave me cause to be
> angry.
>
> Your decision to challenge my statement about MM has caused me to
> think that I was foolish to have made it and to have thoughts on why
> that statement was a foolish one.

Hi JB. You should not feel foolish at all. Maybe you feel intimidated? I
have noticed that sometimes you, and sometimes myself, have backed off and
thought ourself not capable of having an opinion of our own when it comes to
certain people in here challenging us to our opinion or comments. I think
your post was right on! Don't feel foolish at all. My pet peeve is seeing
you back down and put yourself down when Robert challenges your comments or
opinions. You do that a lot. Stop it! ;)
Best,
Gail

>
>
>> Regarding AA being a religious organisation, AA tradition could
>> hardly make it any clearer.
>> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion
>>
>> re·li·gion Pronunciation Key (r-ljn) n. Belief in and reverence
>> for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor
>> of the universe.
>>
>> Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition 2. For our group purpose there is but
>> one ultimate authority a loving God as He may express Himself in our
>> group conscience.
>
> As I said to Joseph:
>
> "You're not the first person to post here that's given publicity to
> the idea that AA is a religious organisation. .......... Probably, you
> won't be the last :^)
>
> ATB
>
> JB
>
>
>
>

11-07-2004, 10:11 AM

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vfqjd.34378$ye4.33701@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cmla4t$g2m$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> :
> : 1. If someone reacts to something I say or do with anger or by
> : laughing for example, how they react is not a matter that's within
> my
> : control. I may have provoked that reaction but that's where my
> : responsibility for their reaction ends.
> :
>
> i think you might be a little confused here.
> you ARE responsible, imo, if you lash out "to hurt" for example, and
> it does indeed hurt someone!

These comments make me think you have not understood what I meant by
"I may have provoked that reaction but that's where my responsibility
for their reaction ends."

> it is not a matter of how the other person reacts.
> INTENTION has a lot to do with "blame placing".
> don't you agree?

It is possible for someone who feels hurt by another's words or
actions to misinterpret the motives of the person who did whatever it
was that resulted in the hurt being felt and for such a person to
feel they have justification for laying the blame for their hurt on
someone else. I believe that AA literature does not encourage such
behaviour.

When someone deliberately sets out to hurt another and achieves their
objective, if the only person who's been hurt is their victim, maybe
it's only the victim who ought to be worried by how their staying hurt
could
adversely affect their peace of mind/serenity/ability to move on/get
on with life.

JB

11-07-2004, 10:34 AM

"Gail" <loverules@myhouse.com> wrote in message
news:10osgsr17ckrj90@corp.supernews.com...

> Hi JB. You should not feel foolish at all. Maybe you feel
intimidated? I
> have noticed that sometimes you, and sometimes myself, have backed
off and
> thought ourself not capable of having an opinion of our own when it
comes to
> certain people in here challenging us to our opinion or comments. I
think
> your post was right on! Don't feel foolish at all. My pet peeve is
seeing
> you back down and put yourself down when Robert challenges your
comments or
> opinions. You do that a lot. Stop it! ;)
> Best,
> Gail

Hi Gail,

Maybe it will surprise you to know that I've recently been thinking
about you. Therefore, I'm pleased to see your post and from it to
be thinking that you are well.

JB

11-07-2004, 12:00 PM

"Gail" <loverules@myhouse.com> wrote in message
news:10osgsr17ckrj90@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi JB. You should not feel foolish at all. Maybe you feel
intimidated? I
> have noticed that sometimes you, and sometimes myself, have backed
off and
> thought ourself not capable of having an opinion of our own when it
comes to
> certain people in here challenging us to our opinion or comments. I
think
> your post was right on! Don't feel foolish at all. My pet peeve is
seeing
> you back down and put yourself down when Robert challenges your
comments or
> opinions. You do that a lot. Stop it! ;)
> Best,
> Gail

Gail.

I can be grateful to those who enable me to see when I make mistakes
for they may cause me to take action which could result in me being
able to not repeat the mistake I've been made me aware of. IMO, Bob's
done me a good turn.

ATB

JB

Robert McGregor

11-07-2004, 01:54 PM

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
message news:Jj4jd.29731$T02.20462@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> it seems the folks who struggle with sobriety, seem to enter
> recovery with all sorts of ABSOLUTES, never taking responsibility
> for their stubborness, but rather blaming others. (people, places
> and things)
>
> "this doesn't work, that doesn't work, there is no god, this is a
> cult" etc etc etc
>
> imo, it is a "set up for failure" and often just a ruse to keep
> drinking.
> perhaps these folks are JUST NOT DONE RUINING THEIR LIVES!
>

Not to mention your own ruses to keep drugging!

Bob

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in
message

news:d_rZa.76641$7O4.1782289@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

>

> chronic depression, DOES NOT lift.

> by definition: "it is always there".

rosie wrote:

>

> you will not find one post of mine, that suggests doing the THIRD

> STEP for what to me is an obvious mental health issue.

>

> grow up!

http://tinyurl.com/2pvpx

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>

Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>YES, whatever works!

>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST

>drink/drug,

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>

Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.337271@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term
>experience with

>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.

>i have however had to take several different meds as each once
>finally

>"wears out" and i need to change.

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in
message

news:v238b.131$ZL3.67@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

i especially like to go to meetings, where there are NO EXPERTS,

From: "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com>

Message-ID: <x7Xrb.18920$Eq1.3069@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

i am one of "those people" who doesn't believe that the LORDS PRAYER

even belongs in an AA meeting.......................i make it a point
to

attend meetings that don't use it.

rosie readandpost

11-07-2004, 06:38 PM

HELLO GAIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--
rosie
in honor of our new president, the united states will be called
jesusland.
welcome to hell !

rosie readandpost

11-07-2004, 06:41 PM

:
: These comments make me think you have not understood what I meant
by
: "I may have provoked that reaction but that's where my
responsibility
: for their reaction ends."
:
:

i think we understand each other, we are just very different in our
actions.

joseph white

11-08-2004, 07:50 PM

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:35:39 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>
>"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
>news:nveqo097ao8fb9i0nh4so1taqi19pkt061@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:35:28 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Actually, AA teachings have given my self-esteem/sense of
>self-worth a
>> >considerable boost. Two of the ways in which they have done this
>is
>> >by enabling me to appreciate the importance of distinguishing that
>for
>> >which I am responsible from that for which I am not
>>
>> To consider some actions of mine not of my responsibility could
>easily
>> make me feel a higher esteem for myself, but I would rather esteem
>> myself for being pleased will ALL of my actions, and not being able
>to
>> escape responsibility from the ones I am not proud of by thinking
>> something like, "They're not my fault, but the Devil made me do
>that,
>> and I was powerless to resist him".
>
>I think I have never thought that anything I've done I did because the
>Devil made me do it.
>
>When I spoke about learning how to distinguish that for which I am
>responsible and that for which I am not I had in mind these ideas:
>
>1. If someone reacts to something I say or do with anger or by
>laughing for example, how they react is not a matter that's within my
>control. I may have provoked that reaction but that's where my
>responsibility for their reaction ends.
>
>2. I am not responsible for the deaths in old age of my grandparents
>and father, all of whom died of natural causes. To a certain extent,
>I am responsible for how I reacted to their deaths. For example, if I
>had used them as an excuse to drink then I would be choosing to drink
>and ought to accept responsibility for my choice.
>
>3. I am not responsible for the troubles in the Middle East for
>example. If I let these troubles become for me an excuse to drink,
>then again I would be choosing to drink and ought to accept
>responsibility for my choice.
>
>I think this is the first time that I have tried to express my
>understanding of what it is I am responsible for and what I am not and
>therefore at this time I am feeling worried about how people will
>respond to this post. So, if I now practice one of the lessons I've
>learnt in AA, maybe I could soon find myself no longer feeling
>anxious.
>
>ATB
>
>JB
>
>
JB, I'm happy for you that matters are clear to you now.

joseph white

11-08-2004, 07:56 PM

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 08:46:58 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>"especially difficult system for a free-thinker"???
>
>hahahahaha.
>
>Did you ever consider actually trying some free thinking yourself,
>before demonstrating your closed minded prejudice here.

Bob, "free-thinker" is a common term for an atheist, but says nothing
else about his state of mind. I am sad that you feel you must attack
me, Bob. I could carry on this "flame war", but I'd rather not.

My kindest regards for you and I wish you well.

Bobby L

11-08-2004, 09:07 PM

Robert McGregor

11-09-2004, 07:23 PM

"joseph white" <uglyvan420@excite.com> wrote in message
news:cl80p05jqnnack1m46j917e20kv8t738fg@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 08:46:58 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>"especially difficult system for a free-thinker"???
>>
>>hahahahaha.
>>
>>Did you ever consider actually trying some free thinking yourself,
>>before demonstrating your closed minded prejudice here.
>
> Bob, "free-thinker" is a common term for an atheist, but says
> nothing
> else about his state of mind.

Oh well, if you're an atheist, your demonstrably closed mind
certainly slammed the "Freethinker" option shut on you, didn't it.

>I am sad that you feel you must attack
> me, Bob. I could carry on this "flame war", but I'd rather not.

"Sad"? "Rather not"? Your inability to support your initial
proclamation is not at all pertinent?

>
> My kindest regards for you and I wish you well.
>

Wow, unwilling to continue your unsupportable bullshit, are you are
now, after turning your other cheek, pretending to personify good
will?

Not a problem.

SLAP!

Now, don't swallow the metaphoric teeth behind this other metaphoric
cheek, that could literally poison you.

Bob;-)