WTF

[Ron]

I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that wasn't
true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to approach
this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
tonight.

I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title. Found
this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this list a bit,
to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's a good
idea.

However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen of
petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to pick with
someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write me at
myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the rest of
us suffer these outbursts?

I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I have to
continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame to waste
what could be a very useful resource.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Mikey]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04...
> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that wasn't
> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to approach
> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
> tonight.
>
> I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title. Found
> this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this list a bit,
> to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's a good
> idea.
>
> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen of
> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to pick with
> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write me at
> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the rest of
> us suffer these outbursts?
>
> I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I have to
> continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame to waste
> what could be a very useful resource.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

Yes to everything. I suggest turning your attention elsewhere. Of course, I
don't drink anymore, and absolutely despise AA, so I am "persona non-grata"
around here for doing the sober thing without AA.

Just don't drink, and when it gets tough, think about how crappy it can be
when you do drink.

Works for me.

Hmmm...maybe I am not an alcoholic...?

PS- Hello "The Other Harry". I have been following your journey, and wish
you all the best!

--Mikey--

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:43:38 GMT, "Mikey" <gubba@hobo.net>
wrote:]

> PS- Hello "The Other Harry". I have been following your journey, and wish
> you all the best!

Thank you.

To the OP: Keep watching. There are some useful posts that
come up from time to time. I have also complained about the
arguing, but there are some good posts too.

[JB]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04...
> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that
wasn't
> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to
approach
> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
> tonight.

<snip>

> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen
of
> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to pick
with
> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write me
at
> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the rest
of
> us suffer these outbursts?
<snip>

> AB5DB9CC

Hi Ron

I think it unlikely that your post will cause anyone here to change
their behaviour.

If you stick around, read widely, post about your recovery and do not
expect people to always agree with your point of view, you may find
that this NG becomes of value to you..

I wish you well with your recovery

Yours

JB

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the
difference" - AA Serenity Prayer

[J. Rockford]

In article <Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04>, Ron <can@the.spam>
wrote:

> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that wasn't
> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to approach
> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
> tonight.
>
> I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title. Found
> this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this list a bit,
> to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's a good
> idea.
>
> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen of
> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to pick with
> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write me at
> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the rest of
> us suffer these outbursts?
>
> I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I have to
> continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame to waste
> what could be a very useful resource.


Hello Ron, my email is broke

If you go to you're 3rd AA meeting look on the wall for the
"live and let live" sign. I heard things like "God gave you two ears
and one mouth for a reason". I've found some of the petty argumentation
of this group can be somewhat entertaining, I get tired of many people
kissing each other to death in recovery when sometimes ya just need a
good butt kickin.
Have a Great Day, Mike

[rosie read and post]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04...
> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that
wasn't
> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to
approach
> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
> tonight.



all newsgroups have the same problem from time to time, but you will
quickly learn who to killfile so you can read more quickly!

how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
(imo, VERY important)


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
http://www.moveon.org/






>
> I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title.
Found
> this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this list
a bit,
> to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's a
good
> idea.
>
> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen
of
> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to
pick with
> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write
me at
> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the
rest of
> us suffer these outbursts?
>
> I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I have
to
> continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame to
waste
> what could be a very useful resource.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 09:20:55 -0000, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

> I think it unlikely that your post will cause anyone here to change
> their behaviour.
>
> If you stick around, read widely, post about your recovery and do not
> expect people to always agree with your point of view, you may find
> that this NG becomes of value to you..

Working out a disagreement in public, where other people may be able to
add other perspectives is one thing. Ad hominem personal squabbling is
another. Of course people will have disagreements in public forums.
That's not a bad thing. But cluttering up usenet forums with off-topic
personal blather can, in extreme cases, render a forum almost useless.

> I wish you well with your recovery

Thanks. I'm finding it's starting to get hard already. I'm resenting
the fact that I blew my cover. It's probably a good thing, overall, but
it means I'm going to be in trouble if I slip another drink, and get
found out. And a drink is exactly what I'd like to have right now.

I'm going to go splurge on a really good lunch.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rock ooont roll]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:

>"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
>news:Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04...
>> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that
>wasn't
>> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to
>approach
>> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
>> tonight.
>
>
>
>all newsgroups have the same problem from time to time, but you will
>quickly learn who to killfile so you can read more quickly!
>
>how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
>have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
>(imo, VERY important)
>
>
>--
>read and post daily, it works!
>rosie
>
>"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> that would suffice."
>...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
>http://www.moveon.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title.
>Found
>> this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this list
>a bit,
>> to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's a
>good
>> idea.
>>
>> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen
>of
>> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to
>pick with
>> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write
>me at
>> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the
>rest of
>> us suffer these outbursts?
>>
>> I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I have
>to
>> continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame to
>waste
>> what could be a very useful resource.
>>
>> --
>> AB5DB9CC
>
>
Hi Rosie, I have a question for you. I've read several of you'r posts
where you talk about kill filing someone. My question to you is do you
think its possible that the people you kill file just may have
something that may help you? Sometimes we don't like to hear stuff
about ourselves but ends up helping us when we finally accept it .
Sort of like having to take bad tasting medicine. Have a nice day.
Maybe you won't even see this because I'm in your' kill file list?
lol!

Jim

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:01:07 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]

>
> Thanks. I'm finding it's starting to get hard already. I'm resenting
> the fact that I blew my cover. It's probably a good thing, overall, but
> it means I'm going to be in trouble if I slip another drink, and get
> found out. And a drink is exactly what I'd like to have right now.

Wouldn't we all?

Blowing your cover is, IMO, the first thing you need to do. You can
blow it here or at an AA meeting. The best is probably with
relatives and friends. They know anyway, but it does help to talk.

Admit. Announce.

Then go on from there.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:01:07 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]

> I'm going to go splurge on a really good lunch.

For me, the food plays a big part in quitting. Good fruits and good
veggies are important. It is not like something that maybe could be
helpful. They are essential.

It is not like maybe "I should get on a better diet". You *have* to
get one. You have to watch everything.

You look at this. It is essential. Don't underestimate it.

[rosie read and post]

jim,
that is why my killfile is a monthly decision.
folks who land there, are NOT trying to teach me
anything........................they are deliberately being
obstreperous.
i find it both boring and time consuming.

and no, your not in my killfile!
;)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
http://www.moveon.org/






"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3fce1b3f.3766203@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net...
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, "rosie read and post"
> <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> >news:Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04...
> >> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently,
that
> >wasn't
> >> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to
> >approach
> >> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
> >> tonight.
> >
> >
> >
> >all newsgroups have the same problem from time to time, but you
will
> >quickly learn who to killfile so you can read more quickly!
> >
> >how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
> >have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
> >(imo, VERY important)
> >
> >
> >--
> >read and post daily, it works!
> >rosie
> >
> >"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> > that would suffice."
> >...............................................m eckhart,
1260-1328
> >http://www.moveon.org/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title.
> >Found
> >> this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this
list
> >a bit,
> >> to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's
a
> >good
> >> idea.
> >>
> >> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after
screen
> >of
> >> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to
> >pick with
> >> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please
write
> >me at
> >> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the
> >rest of
> >> us suffer these outbursts?
> >>
> >> I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I
have
> >to
> >> continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame
to
> >waste
> >> what could be a very useful resource.
> >>
> >> --
> >> AB5DB9CC
> >
> >
> Hi Rosie, I have a question for you. I've read several of you'r
posts
> where you talk about kill filing someone. My question to you is do
you
> think its possible that the people you kill file just may have
> something that may help you? Sometimes we don't like to hear stuff
> about ourselves but ends up helping us when we finally accept it .
> Sort of like having to take bad tasting medicine. Have a nice day.
> Maybe you won't even see this because I'm in your' kill file list?
> lol!
>
> Jim

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:q09ssv46j8da05s509updp3hjrqanosj89@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:01:07 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]
>
> > I'm going to go splurge on a really good lunch.
>
> For me, the food plays a big part in quitting. Good fruits and good
> veggies are important. It is not like something that maybe could be
> helpful. They are essential.
>
> It is not like maybe "I should get on a better diet". You *have* to
> get one. You have to watch everything.
>
> You look at this. It is essential. Don't underestimate it.
>

Harry, is our stop drinking expert. It's just that he forgets not drinking
is the essential part of not drinking.

Bob

[rosie read and post]

harry,
you are full of great suggestions................................

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
http://www.moveon.org/






"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:q09ssv46j8da05s509updp3hjrqanosj89@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 17:01:07 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]
>
> > I'm going to go splurge on a really good lunch.
>
> For me, the food plays a big part in quitting. Good fruits and
good
> veggies are important. It is not like something that maybe could
be
> helpful. They are essential.
>
> It is not like maybe "I should get on a better diet". You *have*
to
> get one. You have to watch everything.
>
> You look at this. It is essential. Don't underestimate it.
>

[JB]

"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3fce1b3f.3766203@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net...

Hi Rosie, I have a question for you. I've read several of you'r posts
where you talk about kill filing someone. My question to you is do you
think its possible that the people you kill file just may have
something that may help you?
<snip>
Jim

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:_Hpzb.102884$Eq1.65910@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> jim,
> that is why my killfile is a monthly decision.
> folks who land there, are NOT trying to teach me
> anything........................they are deliberately being
> obstreperous.
> i find it both boring and time consuming.
<snip>
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie

<snip>

"Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must
be unaffected by outside circumstances". Gandhiji
>
JB (<g>)

[Bob Smith]

Ron <can@the.spam> wrote in news:Yqdzb.407079$Fm2.415209@attbi_s04:

> I have a problem. I know I have a problem. Until recently, that wasn't
> true. So I have some work to do. I'm not quite sure how to approach
> this right now, but I'm trying. I went to my second AA meeting
> tonight.
>
> I decided to search for newsgroups with 'alcohol' in the title. Found
> this one. I thought: "maybe it will be useful to troll this list a bit,
> to see how other people deal with this". I still think that's a good
> idea.
>
> However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen of
> petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to pick with
> someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write me at
> myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the rest of
> us suffer these outbursts?
>
> I can certainly turn my attention elsewhere. And I will if I have to
> continue slogging through this BS. It just seems like a shame to waste
> what could be a very useful resource.
>
Keep coming back. You can learn from anything, even if all you learn is how
not to act. I personally am entertained by the petty fighting that goes on
around in this group. Maybe I need to get out more. LOL

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:14:48 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>However, all I'm getting out of this so far is screen after screen of
>petty argumentation. Take it off line. If you have a bone to pick with
>someone, use email. "If you have a problem with me, please write me at
>myemail@no-spam.domain.com". It's that simple. Why should the rest of
>us suffer these outbursts?

Suggest you check out AA's Step 3. "The alcoholic is an extreme
example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so".

http://www.anonpress.org/bb/Page_60.htm
http://www.anonpress.org/bb/Page_61.htm
http://www.anonpress.org/bb/Page_62.htm

Assuming you're alcoholic (and your disrespectful outburst as a forum
newcomer indicates you might have alcoholic traits), until you can
grasp this concept of your own will, not that of others, being your
real problem, whilst the rest of us are happily arguing sober you'll
be drunkenly trying to make others behave as you think they should.

The difference? Those who've recovered are able to express an opinion
without feeling the need to change anything.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 18:12:10 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:

>jim,
>that is why my killfile is a monthly decision.
>folks who land there, are NOT trying to teach me
>anything........................they are deliberately being
>obstreperous.

How do you know?

--
Blue Moon

[Ron]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:28:55 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Suggest you check out AA's Step 3. "The alcoholic is an extreme
> example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so".

Suggest you google for the word 'netiquette'. It's about maintaining
civil discourse, which is applicable to alcoholics and non-alcoholics
alike.

> Assuming you're alcoholic (and your disrespectful outburst as a forum
> newcomer indicates you might have alcoholic traits),

Yes, I have alcoholic traits. But when you say you disrespect my
disrespect of disrespect, well, I just can't respect that. I.E. - I
think this is going in circles.

I don't mean to condescend. My own behaviour on usenet and other public
forums has been, especially of late, atrocious. So has my drinking.
Until recently, I just thought I needed to stop using my computer
drunk. Stop drinking?! Ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm now guilty of the sins I see in others. Sorry. I'll drop
it.

> The difference? Those who've recovered are able to express an opinion
> without feeling the need to change anything.

I don't buy that. That's what communication is all about. That's the
difference between humans and birds twittering in the trees. For
example, why did you respond to me and the group, rather than write your
thoughts on paper and stuff them in a drawer? I'm not trying to be
obnoxious, I just don't think that's accurate.

--
AB5DB9CC

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 04:49:39 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> Harry, is our stop drinking expert.

I am qualified. I have probably quit drinking as many times as
anyone here. ;)

That's a joke, but I do think the comment about the fruits, veggies,
and diet is correct. My deprivation seizure occurred when I did not
drink *and* did not eat. At the detox program I attended, they were
very careful about giving us regular, balanced meals.

When someone has been drinking for years, and then tries to yank the
booze completely out of their system, the sugar has to be replaced.
It is a physical necessity.

Some people do that with candy. I think fruits are a better way.

For someone who is just now starting on trying to stop, I don't
think too much emphasis can be placed on this. The increased intake
of fruits and veggies that it takes for me is huge. Enormous.

I can eat -- and have eaten -- an entire pineapple at one sitting.
I wolf down asparagus and other vegetables. I couldn't care less
about the meat, but I do prefer the fatty cuts when I eat meat.

Now, you go ahead and take your shots at me personally, Robert. I
don't mind. I deserve them. I have earned them.

But do you see anything wrong in what I have said above?

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Huxzb.409138$HS4.3308714@attbi_s01...
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:28:55 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Suggest you check out AA's Step 3. "The alcoholic is an extreme
> > example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn't think so".
>
> Suggest you google for the word 'netiquette'. It's about maintaining
> civil discourse, which is applicable to alcoholics and non-alcoholics
> alike.
>

Netiquette is conspicuous in the FAQ pertaining to this group, only by it's
absence.

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame29.html

[Ron]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 22:10:12 -0500, The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> For someone who is just now starting on trying to stop, I don't
> think too much emphasis can be placed on this. The increased intake
> of fruits and veggies that it takes for me is huge. Enormous.

I haven't been doing too bad this week. I have noticed my body
reacting, though. I always thought that kind of stuff only happened to
alcoholics. I never stopped drinking long enough to find out that it
was happening to me...

I'm normally a pretty good eater. But it's taken me a few days to get
my appetite back.

I think I'm lucky. I haven't fallen as far as I could. I'm trying to
pull out of this before I *really* bomb out. I'm kind of glad, in a way,
that the slap upside the head that's waking me up is just some good old
fashioned humiliation. I keep telling myself that I don't have a
problem because there haven't been any huge disasters. How stupid is
that?! WTF am I waiting for? I could kill someone. Maybe me.

Actually, I've come pretty damn close to having bad things happen. It's
really just dumb luck that someone's not dead.

I'm probably taking up a lot of bandwidth on this list. It's keeping me
busy and out of trouble, though.

I was a moderately heavy smoker for a long time. I managed to quit some
years ago. I quit and quit and quit, and one time, I don't know why, I
quit and stayed quit. Hard to do. Is there any worthwhile comparison
to quiting drinking? Harder/easier? I never thought I would /crave/ a
drink, but I'm sure craving one right now. And it would be so easy to
get one. I think maybe I'll just go to bed.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Ron]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, rosie read and post <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:

> all newsgroups have the same problem from time to time, but you will
> quickly learn who to killfile so you can read more quickly!

Yeah. I'm a sys/netadmin, run usenet servers, *nix, that kind of crap.
I'm familiar. And a hypocrite. Hopefully less of a hypocrite if I can
manage to stop drinking while online...

> how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
> have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
> (imo, VERY important)

I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie read and post]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:28:55 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> >

> > Assuming you're alcoholic (and your disrespectful outburst as a
forum
> > newcomer indicates you might have alcoholic traits),



Little pot, do not call the kettle black until you have been in
the fire as long as she has!

.... Sequichie

[Robert McGregor]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:msyzb.413198$Tr4.1189701@attbi_s03...
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, rosie read and post
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > all newsgroups have the same problem from time to time, but you will
> > quickly learn who to killfile so you can read more quickly!
>
> Yeah. I'm a sys/netadmin, run usenet servers, *nix, that kind of crap.
> I'm familiar. And a hypocrite. Hopefully less of a hypocrite if I can
> manage to stop drinking while online...
>
> > how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
> > have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
> > (imo, VERY important)
>
> I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC

Guess getting an AA sponsor is like playing Russian roulette.

I noticed most AAers were obsessive about that AA sponsor stuff, yet
sponsors did not even get a mention in the program of recovery. Fortunately
for me, I shut the AAers up by getting myself a *nominal* sponsor, who
luckily turned out to be more nominal than I had hoped for. Nevertheless,
for all the negative stories about AA sponsors, there's probably a positive
story somewhere else.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2o7tsv4bbkj4ilta551755d12pk0qomeur@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 04:49:39 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]
>
> > Harry, is our stop drinking expert.
>
> I am qualified. I have probably quit drinking as many times as
> anyone here. ;)
>
> That's a joke, but I do think the comment about the fruits, veggies,
> and diet is correct. My deprivation seizure occurred when I did not
> drink *and* did not eat. At the detox program I attended, they were
> very careful about giving us regular, balanced meals.
>
> When someone has been drinking for years, and then tries to yank the
> booze completely out of their system, the sugar has to be replaced.
> It is a physical necessity.
>
> Some people do that with candy. I think fruits are a better way.
>
> For someone who is just now starting on trying to stop, I don't
> think too much emphasis can be placed on this. The increased intake
> of fruits and veggies that it takes for me is huge. Enormous.
>
> I can eat -- and have eaten -- an entire pineapple at one sitting.
> I wolf down asparagus and other vegetables. I couldn't care less
> about the meat, but I do prefer the fatty cuts when I eat meat.
>
> Now, you go ahead and take your shots at me personally, Robert. I
> don't mind. I deserve them. I have earned them.
>
> But do you see anything wrong in what I have said above?

I've often heard the saying, "keep your eye on the ball" Dr Bob, of AA fame,
used to say, "first things first." I'm saying, "Harry, you've got your eye
on the spectators, you fuckwit."

Bob

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bqmd5l$23s5d4$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:msyzb.413198$Tr4.1189701@attbi_s03...
> > On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, rosie read and post
> <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > > how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
> > > have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
> > > (imo, VERY important)
> >
> > I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?
> >
> > --
> > AB5DB9CC
>
> Guess getting an AA sponsor is like playing Russian roulette.
>
> I noticed most AAers were obsessive about that AA sponsor stuff, yet
> sponsors did not even get a mention in the program of recovery.
Fortunately
> for me, I shut the AAers up by getting myself a *nominal* sponsor,
who
> luckily turned out to be more nominal than I had hoped for.
Nevertheless,
> for all the negative stories about AA sponsors, there's probably a
positive
> story somewhere else.
>
> Bob
>
Hi Ron,

I decided to get a Sponsor because I wanted someone, primarily, to
help me understand AA's Twelve Step programme and to support me as I
tried to do it. My Sponsor has worked the Steps, has what I consider
to be good sobriety and is someone I get on with. I do not regret my
choice.

Yours

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:57:37 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]

> I think I'm lucky. I haven't fallen as far as I could. I'm trying to
> pull out of this before I *really* bomb out. I'm kind of glad, in a way,
> that the slap upside the head that's waking me up is just some good old
> fashioned humiliation. I keep telling myself that I don't have a
> problem because there haven't been any huge disasters. How stupid is
> that?! WTF am I waiting for? I could kill someone. Maybe me.
>
> Actually, I've come pretty damn close to having bad things happen. It's
> really just dumb luck that someone's not dead.

That probably applies to me too.

I don't want to even think about the number of times I have driven
while drunk. I don't mean just legally drunk, which I personally
think is set a bit low these days at .08 -- I mean *really* drunk.

I have never had an accident or gotten an arrest. But that is
mostly luck, and it is a clock that is ticking.

There is another side to it tho, however. Us heavy-duty drinkers do
figure out ways to "cope" while we are drunk. An amateur drinker
can't go to the store and get back when he is .30, but I can. I can
get my bills paid and do other things.

It is right around here where I think the problem becomes chronic.
Once you start learning how to cope while intoxicated, you are
pretty messed up. The person is on second base. Maybe third base.

> I'm probably taking up a lot of bandwidth on this list. It's keeping me
> busy and out of trouble, though.

I wouldn't worry about using up bandwidth. As you can see, a lot of
it gets consumed by petty arguments. If you continue posting here,
people here will find ways to pick at you.

There is apparently a rage aspect to alcoholism. Even people who
think they are recovered tend to have violent tendencies.

I do not understand this. But I know it is true with me, and it
seems to be true with others. You just need to learn to live with
it. Adapt.

> I was a moderately heavy smoker for a long time. I managed to quit some
> years ago. I quit and quit and quit, and one time, I don't know why, I
> quit and stayed quit. Hard to do. Is there any worthwhile comparison
> to quiting drinking? Harder/easier? I never thought I would /crave/ a
> drink, but I'm sure craving one right now. And it would be so easy to
> get one.

I don't know the association between drinking and smoking, but I do
know there is one. Almost everyone at the detox program I went to
was a heavy smoker. A lady friend of mine had told me about this.

When we weren't in meetings or eating our meals, we mostly all stood
outside and smoked. It was unhealthy, but it was very noticeable.

The smoking rate among the general population is something like 20
to 25%. Among alcoholics, it is more like 80%.

Why?

I tend to connect it with obessive/compulsive. OCD. A need to
sedate. In some ways, it is like me tapping my fingers.

If you can quit smoking, I'm sure you can quit drinking.

> I think maybe I'll just go to bed.

As long as you aren't drunk, there's nothing wrong with that.

I just can't do it. The only way I sleep is to pass out. That was
topic #1 with shrink #1 on Tuesday. Not sleeping is not something I
can do. It is about like setting fire to myself.

Somebody around here think this is a joke?

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Btyzb.104362$Eq1.10024@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:28:55 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
>
> > > Assuming you're alcoholic (and your disrespectful outburst as a
> forum
> > > newcomer indicates you might have alcoholic traits),
>
>
>
> Little pot, do not call the kettle black until you have been in
> the fire as long as she has!
>
> ... Sequichie

Rosie,

"You will find that the mere resolve not to be useless, and the honest
desire to help other people, will, in the quickest and delicatest
ways, improve yourself."
- John Ruskin-

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqmv3f$r3n$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bqmd5l$23s5d4$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> > news:msyzb.413198$Tr4.1189701@attbi_s03...
> > > On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, rosie read and post
> > <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
> > > > have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
> > > > (imo, VERY important)
> > >
> > > I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?
> > >
> > > --
> > > AB5DB9CC
> >
> > Guess getting an AA sponsor is like playing Russian roulette.
> >
> > I noticed most AAers were obsessive about that AA sponsor stuff, yet
> > sponsors did not even get a mention in the program of recovery.
> Fortunately
> > for me, I shut the AAers up by getting myself a *nominal* sponsor,
> who
> > luckily turned out to be more nominal than I had hoped for.
> Nevertheless,
> > for all the negative stories about AA sponsors, there's probably a
> positive
> > story somewhere else.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> Hi Ron,
>
> I decided to get a Sponsor because I wanted someone, primarily, to
> help me understand AA's Twelve Step programme and to support me as I
> tried to do it. My Sponsor has worked the Steps, has what I consider
> to be good sobriety and is someone I get on with. I do not regret my
> choice.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>

JB, given you replied to my post, I feel entitled to ask you a pertinent
question.

Is your sponsor "supporting " your quest for self esteem, diligently taking
the inventory of others, while purporting to be taking your own?

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:09:54 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]

> I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?

A sponsor is supposed to be someone who can help you get through the
AA steps. It goes back to people who bailed each other out of
dependency on alcohol. They would pay for hospital bills.

I do not like that. I want someone who is more interactive. I will
will pay my own bills.

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bqn1c0$24ph0q$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bqmv3f$r3n$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>
> > Hi Ron,
> >
> > I decided to get a Sponsor because I wanted someone, primarily, to
> > help me understand AA's Twelve Step programme and to support me
as I
> > tried to do it. My Sponsor has worked the Steps, has what I
consider
> > to be good sobriety and is someone I get on with. I do not regret
my
> > choice.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> JB, given you replied to my post, I feel entitled to ask you a
pertinent
> question.
>
> Is your sponsor "supporting " your quest for self esteem, diligently
taking
> the inventory of others, while purporting to be taking your own?
>
> Bob
>
If I've understood what my Sponsor has told me I should try everyday
to *always* try to behave in a manner which reflects the principles
for
living which are set down in AA's Twelve Step programme. As far as I
understand the programme, I should not take any one's inventory other
than my own.

At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't like
lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to produce
evidence to support their claim. When they have failed to do so
within what I consider to be a reasonable time (a week), I have nearly
always let the matter drop.. I believe that my Sponsor would not think
it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as I
usually do.

Yours

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqn44t$mcc$2@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bqn1c0$24ph0q$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Is your sponsor "supporting " your quest for self esteem, diligently
> taking
> > the inventory of others, while purporting to be taking your own?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> If I've understood what my Sponsor has told me I should try everyday
> to *always* try to behave in a manner which reflects the principles
> for
> living which are set down in AA's Twelve Step programme. As far as I
> understand the programme, I should not take any one's inventory other
> than my own.
>
> At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't like
> lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
> challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to produce
> evidence to support their claim. When they have failed to do so
> within what I consider to be a reasonable time (a week), I have nearly
> always let the matter drop.. I believe that my Sponsor would not think
> it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as I
> usually do.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
http://blank.org/link/?q=1070536567

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:53:02 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

>
> I've often heard the saying, "keep your eye on the ball" Dr Bob, of AA fame,
> used to say, "first things first." I'm saying, "Harry, you've got your eye
> on the spectators, you fuckwit."

That comment and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at your local
Starbucks. Any day.

There are those of us out here who are still trying to quit
drinking. You can dump on us if you want to, but we would not be
here if we weren't serious about it.

Maybe you don't know that. You're an expert.

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:hs6usvogh00kds56jb13dl20h5evimaqtm@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:53:02 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]
>
> >
> > I've often heard the saying, "keep your eye on the ball" Dr Bob, of AA
fame,
> > used to say, "first things first." I'm saying, "Harry, you've got your
eye
> > on the spectators, you fuckwit."
>
> That comment and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at your local
> Starbucks. Any day.
>
> There are those of us out here who are still trying to quit
> drinking. You can dump on us if you want to, but we would not be
> here if we weren't serious about it.
>
> Maybe you don't know that. You're an expert.

I don't claim expertise, but you're presence here is no proof of "trying" is
it. It couldn't be you are conveniently procrastinating, with no real
intention to quit, at all?

Ironic though, that you are the one who claims you are not powerless over
alcohol.

Bob

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bqn54m$237t64$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bqn44t$mcc$2@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:bqn1c0$24ph0q$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > Is your sponsor "supporting " your quest for self esteem,
diligently
> > taking
> > > the inventory of others, while purporting to be taking your own?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > If I've understood what my Sponsor has told me I should try
everyday
> > to *always* try to behave in a manner which reflects the
principles
> > for
> > living which are set down in AA's Twelve Step programme. As far
as I
> > understand the programme, I should not take any one's inventory
other
> > than my own.
> >
> > At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't
like
> > lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
> > challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to
produce
> > evidence to support their claim. When they have failed to do so
> > within what I consider to be a reasonable time (a week), I have
nearly
> > always let the matter drop.. I believe that my Sponsor would not
think
> > it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as
I
> > usually do.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
> http://blank.org/link/?q=1070536567
>
You will have noted in my original post that I did not say that I
never took anyone's inventory. At this time, I cannot guarantee that
I will stop doing this.

FWIW, rightly or wrongly, I've interpreted some of the comments I've
received as the commentator revealing part of his/her inventory of me.
I've appreciated comments that have enabled me to reassess my thinking
and behaviour and change what, at that time I think is wrong. I think
it likely that I will have further opportunities to reassess my
thinking and behaviour and undergo further change. At this time, I
cannot guarantee that I will not one day think that I am perfect (<g>)

Yours

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:19 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> I should not take any one's inventory other
> than my own.

You and I agree here.

> At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't like
> lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
> challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to produce
> evidence to support their claim.

This is sort of an issue with me. It is one of the things I need
to get past.

I have always been defensive. That does not work.

It does not work anywhere.

[rosie read and post]

>
> I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?
>
> --

ron,
recovery for me, is a "guided" process, and having a sponsor work
with me, explain things to me, answer my phone calls etc, was a HUGE
part of it.

i went to a lot of AA meetings, (no detox/treatment) and learned
from the folks around the tables that having a sponsor was a great
tool, and that i should find someone in AA who had "what i wanted"
and ask them to help me. i did!
after 21 years, i STILL have a sponsor.

i check in with her a couple times a week, it keeps me "balanced" in
my AA program.
is it necessary?

i suppose not, but it is what works for me!
i recommend that you find your original sponsor at a FACE TO FACE
meeting!
(lessens the possibility for "game playing"....................


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
http://www.moveon.org/






"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:msyzb.413198$Tr4.1189701@attbi_s03...
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 13:23:08 GMT, rosie read and post
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > all newsgroups have the same problem from time to time, but you
will
> > quickly learn who to killfile so you can read more quickly!
>
> Yeah. I'm a sys/netadmin, run usenet servers, *nix, that kind of
crap.
> I'm familiar. And a hypocrite. Hopefully less of a hypocrite if
I can
> manage to stop drinking while online...
>
> > how do you think your doing with your AA meetings?
> > have you heard the suggestion of finding a sponsor yet?
> > (imo, VERY important)

[rosie read and post]

> I believe that my Sponsor would not think
> it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as
I
> usually do.
>
> Yours
>
> JB


ROTFLMAO!

[rosie read and post]

> That comment and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at your local
> Starbucks. Any day.
>
> There are those of us out here who are still trying to quit
> drinking. You can dump on us if you want to, but we would not be
> here if we weren't serious about it.
>
> Maybe you don't know that. You're an expert.


harry,
try to ignore the crap and keep striving for "change" in your
life.....................getting all the help you can!

rosie

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqn9fg$3kp$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bqn54m$237t64$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bqn44t$mcc$2@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > > news:bqn1c0$24ph0q$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > >
> > > > Is your sponsor "supporting " your quest for self esteem,
> diligently
> > > taking
> > > > the inventory of others, while purporting to be taking your own?
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > If I've understood what my Sponsor has told me I should try
> everyday
> > > to *always* try to behave in a manner which reflects the
> principles
> > > for
> > > living which are set down in AA's Twelve Step programme. As far
> as I
> > > understand the programme, I should not take any one's inventory
> other
> > > than my own.
> > >
> > > At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't
> like
> > > lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
> > > challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to
> produce
> > > evidence to support their claim. When they have failed to do so
> > > within what I consider to be a reasonable time (a week), I have
> nearly
> > > always let the matter drop.. I believe that my Sponsor would not
> think
> > > it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as
> I
> > > usually do.
> > >
> > > Yours
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > http://blank.org/link/?q=1070536567
> >
> You will have noted in my original post that I did not say that I
> never took anyone's inventory. At this time, I cannot guarantee that
> I will stop doing this.
>
> FWIW, rightly or wrongly, I've interpreted some of the comments I've
> received as the commentator revealing part of his/her inventory of me.
> I've appreciated comments that have enabled me to reassess my thinking
> and behaviour and change what, at that time I think is wrong. I think
> it likely that I will have further opportunities to reassess my
> thinking and behaviour and undergo further change. At this time, I
> cannot guarantee that I will not one day think that I am perfect (<g>)
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
Jeez, I often used to imagine I was near enough to perfect, while coming out
of the alcoholic fog:-) However, you still haven't answered my question in
respect to your fearless and searching inventory of Harry though (not that
all many of your posts to rosie concerned her allegations about you.) All
that aside, given the steps are a personal journey, it would be illuminating
to read precisely what principles you have attributed to them, without
having taken those steps yourself.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:D3Gzb.94819$Vu6.59593@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> > That comment and $3.50 will get you a cup of coffee at your local
> > Starbucks. Any day.
> >
> > There are those of us out here who are still trying to quit
> > drinking. You can dump on us if you want to, but we would not be
> > here if we weren't serious about it.
> >
> > Maybe you don't know that. You're an expert.
>
>
> harry,
> try to ignore the crap and keep striving for "change" in your
> life.....................getting all the help you can!
>
> rosie
>
LOL at our *real* expert


"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Z0Sxa.60832$dl6.3522826@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ATTRACTION, NOT PROMOTION is what we in AA are suppose to remember, and
>abide by


"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:S_Kwb.77574$Eq1.22256@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> i find using my killfile helps me to shut up and stop
> arguing.......................

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>
Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>
>YES, whatever works!
>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST
>drink/drug,
>but i don't expect
>everyone to do so, just because i did!

From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <l%Rl5.19132$E05.337271@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech. net>

>actually, i would have to say that i have had GOOD long term experience
with
>the treatment of my depression over the past 13yrs.
>i have however had to take several different meds as each once finally
>"wears
>out" and i need to change.

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d_rZa.76641$7O4.1782289@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> chronic depression, DOES NOT lift.
> by definition: "it is always there".
>

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i will never be recovered..............................



"rosie@readandpost" wrote in Message
<uoCc6.24059$Af.608669@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>

>if there is a "better" antidepressant out there, i sure would like to read
>about it!

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:p%Fzb.94799$Vu6.86444@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > I believe that my Sponsor would not think
> > it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as
> I
> > usually do.
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
>
>
> ROTFLMAO!

What's so funny about what I said which was:

"At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't like
lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to produce
evidence to support their claim. When they have failed to do so
within what I consider to be a reasonable time (a week), I have nearly
always let the matter drop.. I believe that my Sponsor would not think
it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as I
usually do ?"

JB

[rosie read and post]

ROTFLMAO!

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:p%Fzb.94798$Vu6.1480@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
<snip>
> ron,
> recovery for me, is a "guided" process, and having a sponsor work
> with me, explain things to me, answer my phone calls etc, was a HUGE
> part of it.
>
> i went to a lot of AA meetings, (no detox/treatment) and learned
> from the folks around the tables that having a sponsor was a great
> tool, and that i should find someone in AA who had "what i wanted"
> and ask them to help me. i did!
> after 21 years, i STILL have a sponsor.
>
> i check in with her a couple times a week, it keeps me "balanced" in
> my AA program.
> is it necessary?

> i suppose not, but it is what works for me!
> i recommend that you find your original sponsor at a FACE TO FACE
> meeting!
> (lessens the possibility for "game playing"....................

FWIW, I don't think it matters where someone finds a Sponsor provided
they think that they have at the time they chose their Sponsor the
best person to help them. If they become unhappy with their choice.
they can find a new Sponsor.

Yours

JB

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8oHzb.95461$Vu6.10435@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> ROTFLMAO!

You're insane.

JB

[JB]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqnge3$747$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:p%Fzb.94798$Vu6.1480@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> <snip>
> > ron,
> > recovery for me, is a "guided" process, and having a sponsor work
> > with me, explain things to me, answer my phone calls etc, was a
HUGE
> > part of it.
> >
> > i went to a lot of AA meetings, (no detox/treatment) and learned
> > from the folks around the tables that having a sponsor was a great
> > tool, and that i should find someone in AA who had "what i wanted"
> > and ask them to help me. i did!
> > after 21 years, i STILL have a sponsor.
> >
> > i check in with her a couple times a week, it keeps me "balanced"
in
> > my AA program.
> > is it necessary?
>
> > i suppose not, but it is what works for me!
> > i recommend that you find your original sponsor at a FACE TO FACE
> > meeting!
> > (lessens the possibility for "game playing"....................
>
> FWIW, I don't think it matters where someone finds a Sponsor
provided
> they think that they have at the time they chose their Sponsor the
> best person to help them. If they become unhappy with their choice.
> they can find a new Sponsor.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
PS: My Sponsor is a member of this NG. I chose this person because I
wanted to get started on AA's programme before I had got to know
people well enough in my AA meetings to be able to choose who I
thought was the best person to help me. I chose my Sponsor after
several weeks of watching how they dealt with issues. I have no
regrets.

Yours

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqnge3$747$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:p%Fzb.94798$Vu6.1480@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> <snip>
> > ron,
> > recovery for me, is a "guided" process, and having a sponsor work
> > with me, explain things to me, answer my phone calls etc, was a HUGE
> > part of it.
> >
> > i went to a lot of AA meetings, (no detox/treatment) and learned
> > from the folks around the tables that having a sponsor was a great
> > tool, and that i should find someone in AA who had "what i wanted"
> > and ask them to help me. i did!
> > after 21 years, i STILL have a sponsor.
> >
> > i check in with her a couple times a week, it keeps me "balanced" in
> > my AA program.
> > is it necessary?
>
> > i suppose not, but it is what works for me!
> > i recommend that you find your original sponsor at a FACE TO FACE
> > meeting!
> > (lessens the possibility for "game playing"....................
>
> FWIW, I don't think it matters where someone finds a Sponsor provided
> they think that they have at the time they chose their Sponsor the
> best person to help them. If they become unhappy with their choice.
> they can find a new Sponsor.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>

How can a sick alcoholic differentiate between want, and need?

Despite it's errors, and lies, seems to me the approach of Joe and Charlie
"If it's not in the Big Book, forget it." is the most likely to lead to
recovery of *real* alcoholics. At least the Big Book errors could hardly be
blamed for leading anyone to drink, and the lies never could. A sponsor's
power trip, be it overt or covert, could certainly inhibit recovery, with at
best, needless complication. I'm sure there are countless more cases than
the one I know of, where the outcome after sponsorship was the pair of them
drinking together.

Bob

[rosie read and post]

> PS: My Sponsor is a member of this NG.

JB,
we all know that.



>I chose this person because I
> wanted to get started on AA's programme before I had got to know
> people well enough in my AA meetings to be able to choose who I
> thought was the best person to help me.



so, do you know folks better in your FACE TO FACE meetings now, so
you can pick a real sponsor?
someone you can't bullshit?









I chose my Sponsor after
> several weeks of watching how they dealt with issues. I have no
> regrets.


oh, i'm sure of that!
;)

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 12:49:39 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]

> try to ignore the crap and keep striving for "change" in your
> life.....................getting all the help you can!

That is what I have been trying to do. It isn't so easy.

Six months ago, I thought all I needed to do was to put down the
bottle. There is some truth to that. The bottle does need to be
put down.

For me, there are several other steps, most of them involving
dealing with my psych issues. Otherwise I just pick the bottle back
up again.

Maybe that is just an excuse. If it is, it is a long one.

I agree with the analogy about going around the bases. Stopping
drinking gets me to first base. I have to get that far. I can get
there, but I keep f'ing up after I do. The bottle then gets picked
back up.

My opinion is that I need to stop drinking, and then to address my
psych issues. In that order.

There is a sequence to it. But if I don't do it right, I seem to
screw it up. I am tired of screwing it up.

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hdIzb.95807$Vu6.60041@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

>
> so, do you know folks better in your FACE TO FACE meetings now, so
> you can pick a real sponsor?
> someone you can't bullshit?
>
You can't bullshit God?

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 23:10:26 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> LOL at our *real* expert

You know what, Robert?

It's snowing here. Central Virginia.

It isn't snowing hard, but it is snowing. It's very pretty.

This may affect my ability to go down and get and get another bottle
and some more ciggies, both of which I need.

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:26:00 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> You're insane.

And you're not?

We are all insane.

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 01:33:55 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> You can't bullshit God?

We do try. It might not work.

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bqnag6$240m6r$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bqn9fg$3kp$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>

> > FWIW, rightly or wrongly, I've interpreted some of the comments
I've
> > received as the commentator revealing part of his/her inventory of
me.
> > I've appreciated comments that have enabled me to reassess my
thinking
> > and behaviour and change what, at that time I think is wrong. I
think
> > it likely that I will have further opportunities to reassess my
> > thinking and behaviour and undergo further change. At this time,
I
> > cannot guarantee that I will not one day think that I am perfect
(<g>)
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
> Jeez, I often used to imagine I was near enough to perfect, while
coming out
> of the alcoholic fog:-) However, you still haven't answered my
question in
> respect to your fearless and searching inventory of Harry though
(not that
> all many of your posts to rosie concerned her allegations about
you.) All
> that aside, given the steps are a personal journey, it would be
illuminating
> to read precisely what principles you have attributed to them,
without
> having taken those steps yourself.
>
> Bob
>
I've yet to read all the posts referred to in that link. However, I
know who they are about. I answered your question to the best of
my ability *according to my interpretation of it* (<g>)

In respect of my posts to Harry, I know in both my head and heart
that all I was trying to do was help him. I regret some of the things
I said. to him and apologise - truly apologise- for getting him so
annoyed that he thought he necessary to say to me: "I just think you
are fucking around with me, and I've had enough of it" . (29th Nov
2003). FWIW, I learnt through those exchanges that what I did at
certain times, would not be sensible to do again. In exchanges with
others, I have also learnt valuable lessons which few on this NG know
that I practice on a daily basis..

Bob, as you know, I have not worked the whole programme. Therefore,
what follows, is based only my frequent reading of the entire Twelve
Steps and my interpretation of conversations I've had with my Sponsor
and others. I think it likely that my understanding may change if
anyone comments.

1st Principle Powerlessness over alcohol Accepted: I mustn't drink
because I can't control how much I drink once I start drinking.

2nd Principle Life is unmanageable Accepted I've often become
angry, frustrated or depressed for example when I've thought about
what I think are my failings, when others have behaved in ways I've
not liked and for many other reasons. When I can't accept my
limitations and also when I don't try to the best of my ability to
achieve what I know in my heart at any given time is possible, then
that is when I'm not managing my life.

3rd Principle Believe that only a power greater than the alcoholic
himself can cure his alcoholism. Accepted. I regard as my HP's this
NG, my AA groups, my AA literature, my Sponsor and the invisible
presence to whom I talk whenever I feel the need to. They have helped
in various ways to keep me from not drinking for nearly six months.
At this time, I have no reason to believe that will not continue to
help me do so.

4th Principle Stop trying to run the show. Believe that
someone/something more powerful than you can do it better. Let them
show you what to do. Not fully accepted These days I nearly always
ask my invisible HP to show me to do in situations that I don't know
how to handle. I never used to. When I've done this, I've usually
found a peace of mind that enabled me to cope with whatever it was I
had to cope with much better than if I had worked myself up into a
state about it through worry.
.. . .
5th Principle Honesty/Humility I am trying to the best of my
ability to be always honest with myself and with others. I am
learning humility in the sense that I have identified "defects" in
my character - probably not all of them and am working at overcoming
them. What people here don't see are the many occasions when I've
been able to overcome one of my defects for a short time.

6th Principle Forgiveness. I try not to hold grudges against
people. I know that I still do.

7th Principle Become a better person. The Steps suggest to me how I
can achieve this

8th Principle Through actions and words show the world that you have
become a better person.

Best regards

JB
(posting from her dugout behind the parapet)

[rosie read and post]

> My opinion is that I need to stop drinking, and then to address my
> psych issues. In that order.
>
> There is a sequence to it. But if I don't do it right, I seem to
> screw it up. I am tired of screwing it up.
>


your opinion is CORRECT!

1.quit drinking
2.address the psych issues

in that order!

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hdIzb.95807$Vu6.60041@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > PS: My Sponsor is a member of this NG.
>
> JB,
> we all know that.
>
How can you be sure ?.
>
> >I chose this person because I
> > wanted to get started on AA's programme before I had got to know
> > people well enough in my AA meetings to be able to choose who I
> > thought was the best person to help me.
>
> so, do you know folks better in your FACE TO FACE meetings now, so
> you can pick a real sponsor?
> someone you can't bullshit?

I don't understand what you mean by "a real sponsor" ?

> I chose my Sponsor after
> > several weeks of watching how they dealt with issues. I have no
> > regrets.
>

> oh, i'm sure of that!
> ;)

If you are saying that you don't believe me, can you prove that I'm
not telling the truth ?

JB

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:f6musvo24qladcnpqefgscmn4donte56hb@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:26:00 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > You're insane.
>
> And you're not?
>
> We are all insane.

To different degrees ? (<g>)

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:16:20 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> To different degrees ? (<g>)

The degrees don't matter. I don't want to try to measure them.

It is basically being friggin' nuts.

I do not see anything wrong with that. I have yet to meet a normal
person.

So, we have this shit to that we need to sort. The only way to sort
it is to sort it. Put on the gloves and get out the shovel. That
can be done.

That is my lecture to myself.

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 10:19:22 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>My opinion is that I need to stop drinking, and then to address my
>psych issues. In that order.

You got it right this time. A bit of a turn-around from the idea of
sorting out psych issues so you can then quit drinking.

The next step is to take whatever actions are necessary to quit
drinking. Are you willing to do whatever it takes?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 11:55:09 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:16:20 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
>wrote:]
>
>> To different degrees ? (<g>)
>
>The degrees don't matter. I don't want to try to measure them.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore
us to sanity.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 14:26:00 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>
>"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:8oHzb.95461$Vu6.10435@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> ROTFLMAO!
>
>You're insane.

Yes. Next question?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:19 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>As far as I understand the programme, I should not take any one's
>inventory other than my own.

Step 4 specifically directs the individual to take everyone else's
inventory as a list of resentments (who, why, and what is affected).
It then subsequently directs ownership of that inventory, through
examining "my part".

So I'd be quite entitled to take your inventory. What it might not be
appropriate for me to do is to tell you I've done so.

However, I find it curious that Robert has deemed it appropriate to
take your inventory about inventory-taking.

When it comes to other people, I guess we tend to judge them by our
own standards rather than by theirs. For example, Rosie's standards
of honesty may be something I never reached even in the depths of my
drinking. But any honesty issues that someone else has is not my
problem, never has been, and never will be.

>At this time, I think it's important for me to say that I don't like
>lies being told about me. When they have been told, I want to
>challenge - and have challenged - whoever has told them to produce
>evidence to support their claim. When they have failed to do so
>within what I consider to be a reasonable time (a week), I have nearly
>always let the matter drop.. I believe that my Sponsor would not think
>it inappropriate for me to behave when lies are told about me, as I
>usually do.

If you continue to work the program, rather than get stuck at, say,
Step 4, then through your own mistakes your own conscience should
start to indicate to you how to act/react to situations. There are
9th Step promises which say "we will instinctively know how to handle
situations which used to baffle us" and "fear of people .... will
leave us". What many people seem to overlook is the fact that the
list of 9th Step promises has the first 9 Steps as a prerequisite, "if
we are painstaking about this phase of our development....".

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 05:32:13 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:09:54 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:]
>
>> I don't understand the sponsor bit. What's that about?
>
>A sponsor is supposed to be someone who can help you get through the
>AA steps. It goes back to people who bailed each other out of
>dependency on alcohol. They would pay for hospital bills.
>
>I do not like that. I want someone who is more interactive. I will
>will pay my own bills.

"Contempt prior to investigation..." adds to the mass of
misinformation that is passed off as fact. I'm unaware of any sponsor
who'd pay your bills.

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqnmcl$qln$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bqnag6$240m6r$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Jeez, I often used to imagine I was near enough to perfect, while
> coming out
> > of the alcoholic fog:-) However, you still haven't answered my
> question in
> > respect to your fearless and searching inventory of Harry though
> (not that
> > all many of your posts to rosie concerned her allegations about
> you.) All
> > that aside, given the steps are a personal journey, it would be
> illuminating
> > to read precisely what principles you have attributed to them,
> without
> > having taken those steps yourself.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> I've yet to read all the posts referred to in that link. However, I
> know who they are about. I answered your question to the best of
> my ability *according to my interpretation of it* (<g>)
>
> In respect of my posts to Harry, I know in both my head and heart
> that all I was trying to do was help him. I regret some of the things
> I said. to him and apologise - truly apologise- for getting him so
> annoyed that he thought he necessary to say to me: "I just think you
> are fucking around with me, and I've had enough of it" . (29th Nov
> 2003). FWIW, I learnt through those exchanges that what I did at
> certain times, would not be sensible to do again. In exchanges with
> others, I have also learnt valuable lessons which few on this NG know
> that I practice on a daily basis..
>
> Bob, as you know, I have not worked the whole programme. Therefore,
> what follows, is based only my frequent reading of the entire Twelve
> Steps and my interpretation of conversations I've had with my Sponsor
> and others. I think it likely that my understanding may change if
> anyone comments.
>
> 1st Principle Powerlessness over alcohol Accepted: I mustn't drink
> because I can't control how much I drink once I start drinking.
>
> 2nd Principle Life is unmanageable Accepted I've often become
> angry, frustrated or depressed for example when I've thought about
> what I think are my failings, when others have behaved in ways I've
> not liked and for many other reasons. When I can't accept my
> limitations and also when I don't try to the best of my ability to
> achieve what I know in my heart at any given time is possible, then
> that is when I'm not managing my life.
>
> 3rd Principle Believe that only a power greater than the alcoholic
> himself can cure his alcoholism. Accepted. I regard as my HP's this
> NG, my AA groups, my AA literature, my Sponsor and the invisible
> presence to whom I talk whenever I feel the need to. They have helped
> in various ways to keep me from not drinking for nearly six months.
> At this time, I have no reason to believe that will not continue to
> help me do so.
>
> 4th Principle Stop trying to run the show. Believe that
> someone/something more powerful than you can do it better. Let them
> show you what to do. Not fully accepted These days I nearly always
> ask my invisible HP to show me to do in situations that I don't know
> how to handle. I never used to. When I've done this, I've usually
> found a peace of mind that enabled me to cope with whatever it was I
> had to cope with much better than if I had worked myself up into a
> state about it through worry.
> . . .
> 5th Principle Honesty/Humility I am trying to the best of my
> ability to be always honest with myself and with others. I am
> learning humility in the sense that I have identified "defects" in
> my character - probably not all of them and am working at overcoming
> them. What people here don't see are the many occasions when I've
> been able to overcome one of my defects for a short time.
>
> 6th Principle Forgiveness. I try not to hold grudges against
> people. I know that I still do.
>
> 7th Principle Become a better person. The Steps suggest to me how I
> can achieve this
>
> 8th Principle Through actions and words show the world that you have
> become a better person.
>
> Best regards
>
> JB
> (posting from her dugout behind the parapet)
>
>

And your sponsor endorses all that, at the expense of actually taking the
steps, and finding out for yourself?

Bob

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:56:34 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>How can a sick alcoholic differentiate between want, and need?

The first sponsor I had relapsed. I knew then that I neither wanted
nor needed what he had. In fact, I somehow "knew" he was relapsing a
few days before the belief was confirmed by his being carried into a
meeting by 2 others.

>Despite it's errors, and lies, seems to me the approach of Joe and Charlie
>"If it's not in the Big Book, forget it." is the most likely to lead to
>recovery of *real* alcoholics.

Indeed. And the decent sponsors I know would all say the same thing.

>A sponsor's
>power trip, be it overt or covert, could certainly inhibit recovery, with at
>best, needless complication.

You assume that all sponsors are on a power trip? In my experience,
that's not the case, though it's certainly a risk particularly with
those "sponsors" who've never actually worked the program. As for
needless complication at best, I strongly disagree. My sponsor helped
me understand the program so much better as my needlessly complicated
brain was making a hash of it.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 03:04:08 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:28:55 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> The difference? Those who've recovered are able to express an opinion
>> without feeling the need to change anything.
>
>I don't buy that.

Don't care if you buy it or not. I've recovered, you're still
drinking.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:11:13 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 00:28:55 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>> >
>
>> > Assuming you're alcoholic (and your disrespectful outburst as a
>forum
>> > newcomer indicates you might have alcoholic traits),
>
>
>
>Little pot, do not call the kettle black until you have been in
>the fire as long as she has!

Given that I've not only been in the recovery fire for some time, but
also in this newsgroup for far longer than this guy and you put
together, that's all the qualification I need to say I've not only
been in the fire for all the time needed, I also learned how to get
out of it.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bqogtv$20ocjq$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bqnmcl$qln$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:bqnag6$240m6r$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...

<snip very long post from JB in which she explains her current
understanding of the prnciples underlying AA's programme)

>your sponsor endorses all that, at the expense of actually taking the
> steps, and finding out for yourself?
>
> Bob

Unless my Sponsor reads what I've written, that person does not know
what I've told you.

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ab51e29aae7fb319537eeb23ba4cf602@news.teranew s.com...
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:19 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >As far as I understand the programme, I should not take any one's
> >inventory other than my own.
>
> Step 4 specifically directs the individual to take everyone else's
> inventory as a list of resentments (who, why, and what is affected).
> It then subsequently directs ownership of that inventory, through
> examining "my part".
>
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_59.htm

To the contrary, step four does not specifically direct that, at all.

You are confusing Bill's opinions with step four. According to AA
literature, for the founding members finally responsible for the wording of
those steps "The tremendous fact for every one of us is that we have
discovered a common solution. " agreement was impossible regarding
instructions for actually taking the steps.

"Above all, Bill believed that his depressions were perpetuated by his own
failure to work the A.A. steps" Pass It On p298

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dc0956d6162b1ef2782902159ba1aa9a@news.teranew s.com...
>
> "Contempt prior to investigation..." adds to the mass of
> misinformation that is passed off as fact. I'm unaware of any sponsor
> who'd pay your bills.
>
> --

Arranging for detox hospitalisation of new "prospects" is how AA sponsorship
started.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0e5cad906f7679b9a410a805a059bf6a@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:56:34 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> >A sponsor's
> >power trip, be it overt or covert, could certainly inhibit recovery, with
at
> >best, needless complication.
>
> You assume that all sponsors are on a power trip? In my experience,
> that's not the case, though it's certainly a risk particularly with
> those "sponsors" who've never actually worked the program. As for
> needless complication at best, I strongly disagree. My sponsor helped
> me understand the program so much better as my needlessly complicated
> brain was making a hash of it.
>
I did not assume that at all. As for needless complications at best, you are
disagreeing with your very own assumption.

Bob

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:01:38 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>1st Principle Powerlessness over alcohol Accepted: I mustn't drink
>because I can't control how much I drink once I start drinking.
>
>2nd Principle Life is unmanageable Accepted I've often become
>angry, frustrated or depressed for example when I've thought about
>what I think are my failings, when others have behaved in ways I've
>not liked and for many other reasons. When I can't accept my
>limitations and also when I don't try to the best of my ability to
>achieve what I know in my heart at any given time is possible, then
>that is when I'm not managing my life.

How about the occasional lack of effective mental defence against the
first drink? A big principle of Step 1, too-often overlooked.

I perceive a key principle is conspicuous by its absence, which is
"willingness". Until I was willing to go to any lengths to recover, I
was inclined to be lazy with the process. Emotions themselves kicked
me into a state of willingness, whereas in a previous "life" they'd
have kicked me into a state of drunkenness. That's why some people
recover whereas others mess around continuing to delude themselves
that booze or other chemicals are somehow a fix for life's issues.

>3rd Principle Believe that only a power greater than the alcoholic
>himself can cure his alcoholism. Accepted. I regard as my HP's this
>NG, my AA groups, my AA literature, my Sponsor and the invisible
>presence to whom I talk whenever I feel the need to. They have helped
>in various ways to keep me from not drinking for nearly six months.
>At this time, I have no reason to believe that will not continue to
>help me do so.

I'd suggest maintaining an open mind on this one .... "Came to
believe" that the program could work didn't really happen for me until
after I'd felt the benefits of working the Steps (pretty much all of
'em). I had a Higher Power, I just didn't trust that he/she/it knew
what's best (sometimes still don't)

>5th Principle Honesty/Humility I am trying to the best of my
>ability to be always honest with myself and with others. I am
>learning humility in the sense that I have identified "defects" in
>my character - probably not all of them and am working at overcoming
>them. What people here don't see are the many occasions when I've
>been able to overcome one of my defects for a short time.
>
>6th Principle Forgiveness. I try not to hold grudges against
>people. I know that I still do.
>
>7th Principle Become a better person. The Steps suggest to me how I
>can achieve this
>
>8th Principle Through actions and words show the world that you have
>become a better person.

Did you intend to jump from Step 4 to Step 8, then back to 7 and ...
something else? I'm unaware of a principle where I should demonstrate
having become a better person, that would be self-evident. Wouldn't
any attempt at such a demonstration be a form of false pride or ego?

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:189cd8ef3dc62194eae3ee3cdbefa5df@news.teranew s.com...
> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 16:01:38 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
<snip> .
> >
> >7th Principle Become a better person. The Steps suggest to me
how I
> >can achieve this
> >
> >8th Principle Through actions and words show the world that you
have
> >become a better person.
>
> Did you intend to jump from Step 4 to Step 8, then back to 7 and ...
> something else? I'm unaware of a principle where I should
demonstrate
> having become a better person, that would be self-evident. Wouldn't
> any attempt at such a demonstration be a form of false pride or ego?
>
> --
> Blue Moon

No Blue, I didn't. I found the task Bob set me difficult. Never
before have I had tried to put my thoughts on this subject into
words.. I wanted to get a response to Bob today and after working on
it for more time than I should have, I let it go

What I meant to say under the heading "8th principle" is what you've
said However, I now think that any changes others see in me might
not be considered by everyone who sees them to be changes for the
better and therefore, that my thinking is flawed.

My 7th principle allows for a role for my ego. At this time, I do not
think there is any harm in my ego having a part to play in my life
provided I keep it under control. I'm fact, I wondering whether it
would be possible for anyone to not have an ego.

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:10:47 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ab51e29aae7fb319537eeb23ba4cf602@news.teranew s.com...
>> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:19 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>>
>> >As far as I understand the programme, I should not take any one's
>> >inventory other than my own.
>>
>> Step 4 specifically directs the individual to take everyone else's
>> inventory as a list of resentments (who, why, and what is affected).
>> It then subsequently directs ownership of that inventory, through
>> examining "my part".
>>
>http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_59.htm
>
>To the contrary, step four does not specifically direct that, at all.

That depends on your opinion on where the Steps are found. There's
more to the big book, and the program, than page 59.

>You are confusing Bill's opinions with step four.

If I wanted to do that I'd go to the 12x12. Of course there are
different ways of working the 4th, some arguably better than others.
However, 5 refers to "the exact nature of our wrongs" and 6 refers to
"all these defects of character", so one thing seems clear: however I
do the 4th Step, the intention is to locate these "wrongs" or
"defects" that the subsequent Steps refer to. Hence there can be many
ways NOT to work a 4th. I'm not convinced the Big Book directions are
so off-beam as to warrant any argument over whether it works.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:15:18 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:dc0956d6162b1ef2782902159ba1aa9a@news.teranew s.com...
>>
>> "Contempt prior to investigation..." adds to the mass of
>> misinformation that is passed off as fact. I'm unaware of any sponsor
>> who'd pay your bills.

>Arranging for detox hospitalisation of new "prospects" is how AA sponsorship
>started.

Yes. And I'm unaware of any sponsor who'd pay your bills.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:19:18 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:0e5cad906f7679b9a410a805a059bf6a@news.teranew s.com...
>> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:56:34 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
>> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> >A sponsor's
>> >power trip, be it overt or covert, could certainly inhibit recovery, with
>at
>> >best, needless complication.
>>
>> You assume that all sponsors are on a power trip? In my experience,
>> that's not the case, though it's certainly a risk particularly with
>> those "sponsors" who've never actually worked the program. As for
>> needless complication at best, I strongly disagree. My sponsor helped
>> me understand the program so much better as my needlessly complicated
>> brain was making a hash of it.
>>
>I did not assume that at all. As for needless complications at best, you are
>disagreeing with your very own assumption.

Okay, so you could just have said "no" to the original question which
was a question pertaining to the implications of your language.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 00:58:36 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I found the task Bob set me difficult.

It might be interesting for Bob to answer his own question. I hope he
does.

>I wanted to get a response to Bob today and after working on
>it for more time than I should have, I let it go

I'm not surprised you found it tough, because you were being
challenged to present principles learned through Steps you've not yet
taken.

>I now think that any changes others see in me might
>not be considered by everyone who sees them to be changes for the
>better and therefore, that my thinking is flawed.

Perhaps only by the fact that their opinions would be relevant.

>My 7th principle allows for a role for my ego. At this time, I do not
>think there is any harm in my ego having a part to play in my life
>provided I keep it under control. I'm fact, I wondering whether it
>would be possible for anyone to not have an ego.

I'm not aware of anyone who is entirely free of ego. "Spiritual
progress, not spiritual perfection". I guess I could say my own ego
is at a level where I am able to live with myself :)

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7abb9bd058af04568597f2761ba0ffb@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:15:18 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:dc0956d6162b1ef2782902159ba1aa9a@news.teranew s.com...
> >>
> >> "Contempt prior to investigation..." adds to the mass of
> >> misinformation that is passed off as fact. I'm unaware of any sponsor
> >> who'd pay your bills.
>
> >Arranging for detox hospitalisation of new "prospects" is how AA
sponsorship
> >started.
>
> Yes. And I'm unaware of any sponsor who'd pay your bills.

You might benefit by prior investigation. While sponsors accepted
responsibility for the bills, apparently not all kept their commitment with
the hospital concerned, subsequently if not consequentially, Dr Bob was
asked to go, and did leave that hospital.

You may find jimb @ http://www.historyofaa.com/ could help with any
investigation. Despite knowing I am not an AAer, Jim freely helped even me,
many times.

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1d8689436aab24f144712e2c550c93c6@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:10:47 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:ab51e29aae7fb319537eeb23ba4cf602@news.teranew s.com...
> >> On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 10:50:19 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >As far as I understand the programme, I should not take any one's
> >> >inventory other than my own.
> >>
> >> Step 4 specifically directs the individual to take everyone else's
> >> inventory as a list of resentments (who, why, and what is affected).
> >> It then subsequently directs ownership of that inventory, through
> >> examining "my part".
> >>
> >http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_59.htm
> >
> >To the contrary, step four does not specifically direct that, at all.
>
> That depends on your opinion on where the Steps are found. There's
> more to the big book, and the program, than page 59.
>
> >You are confusing Bill's opinions with step four.
>
> If I wanted to do that I'd go to the 12x12. Of course there are
> different ways of working the 4th, some arguably better than others.
> However, 5 refers to "the exact nature of our wrongs" and 6 refers to
> "all these defects of character", so one thing seems clear: however I
> do the 4th Step, the intention is to locate these "wrongs" or
> "defects" that the subsequent Steps refer to. Hence there can be many
> ways NOT to work a 4th. I'm not convinced the Big Book directions are
> so off-beam as to warrant any argument over whether it works.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Blue, only a few posts ago you endorsed my comment on the Joe and Charlie
sentiments, so where is the argument the directions don't work? I do opine
that Bill's opinions add far more confusion to a very simple program than
necessary, but other than mention of Dr Bob's famous exhortation to Bill,
"Keep it simple." I cannot recall ever having argued that opinion here.

What you claim as being "more" to the program is documented in Bill's own
words (AACOA page 163) as being Bill's opinion, on which the group consensus
responsible for actually defining "the program" could *in no way* agree.

Took a lot of research for me to comprehend that hurried endorsement of
publication in anticipation of a financial windfall, is not endorsement of
all the book contents, at all. In at least the first edition, Bill is on
record (again AACOA) as ignoring the protestations of authors at his
alteration of *their personal stories.*

In reference to your contextual argument, none of that context mentions the
taking of other folks inventory as being a necessary component of step four,
which JB purported to be taking.

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:43:26 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:]

> "Contempt prior to investigation..." adds to the mass of
> misinformation that is passed off as fact. I'm unaware of any sponsor
> who'd pay your bills.

I'm not looking for one, but I do think that is the origin of the
term. Many newbies to AA confuse it with thinking that they need
someone to sponsor them for membership in AA.

I think it would be better if some other word was used. "Partner"
maybe. But "sponsor" has its tradition.


The snow here is still very pretty. It won't be tomorrow. Then we
get slush.

That's the way things go.

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:52:20 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:]

> You assume that all sponsors are on a power trip? In my experience,
> that's not the case, though it's certainly a risk particularly with
> those "sponsors" who've never actually worked the program. As for
> needless complication at best, I strongly disagree. My sponsor helped
> me understand the program so much better as my needlessly complicated
> brain was making a hash of it.

I liked the last clause there.

Speaking of which, Santa Claus will be coming around soon. I need
to do some wrapping and packaging.


I don't know that a sponsor needs to be sober. He/she does need to
know about working the AA steps.

One could say that the sponsor can't know that if not sober, but I'm
not so sure.

I am more bothered by experts who think they know everything and by
people -- like my shrink -- who are unfamiliar with the problem.

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 23:54:24 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:]

> Don't care if you buy it or not. I've recovered, you're still
> drinking.

I'll go with Rosie on this. We don't recover. We can stop
drinking, but we never recover. We can be recovering alcoholics,
but we never recover. It ain't over.

(Rosie: Sorry if I mis-quoted you.)