11-28-03

[rosie read and post]

November 28, 2003
Not-worrying
Each of us has to do something each day --
work in an office or a factory, soldier,
take care of a house, or whatever.
None of us has to understand HP
or worry about things beyond our control.
We can indulge in the luxury of not-worrying.
Any of us can handle just one day . . .
We don't have to try fixing up the whole world . . .
We simply stop messing in HP's business.
.. . . when we stop messing and stop worrying,
we have turned our will and our lives over to HP (or Good)
as we understand (or don't understand) Him.

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:E6Ixb.69072$Vu6.17010@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> November 28, 2003
> Not-worrying
> Each of us has to do something each day --
> work in an office or a factory, soldier,
> take care of a house, or whatever.
> None of us has to understand HP
> or worry about things beyond our control.
> We can indulge in the luxury of not-worrying.
> Any of us can handle just one day . . .
> We don't have to try fixing up the whole world . . .
> We simply stop messing in HP's business.
> . . . when we stop messing and stop worrying,
> we have turned our will and our lives over to HP (or Good)
> as we understand (or don't understand) Him.

I don't think that you have made this up. If you have quoted what
someone else has said , have you quoted them accurately ? I am
asking this because of the inclusion of the words "good" and "or don't
understand".

Yours

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:E6Ixb.69072$Vu6.17010@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> . . . when we stop messing and stop worrying,
> we have turned our will and our lives over to HP (or Good)
> as we understand (or don't understand) Him.
>
Apart from a blatant plagiarisation/misrepresentation of the AA step three,
who on earth do you think you are? Saint fucking pooper?

What authority do you have to use the word "we?" Have "New York" (AA)
broadened your status as AA spokesperson?

Spose I'll have the option of reposting this when you indulge in your
monthly masturbatory orgy, stopping the universe as you clear your very own
"tongue is unmanageable" killfile


Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bq7k0v$f24$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:E6Ixb.69072$Vu6.17010@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > November 28, 2003
> > Not-worrying
> > Each of us has to do something each day --
> > work in an office or a factory, soldier,
> > take care of a house, or whatever.
> > None of us has to understand HP
> > or worry about things beyond our control.
> > We can indulge in the luxury of not-worrying.
> > Any of us can handle just one day . . .
> > We don't have to try fixing up the whole world . . .
> > We simply stop messing in HP's business.
> > . . . when we stop messing and stop worrying,
> > we have turned our will and our lives over to HP (or Good)
> > as we understand (or don't understand) Him.
>
> I don't think that you have made this up. If you have quoted what
> someone else has said , have you quoted them accurately ? I am
> asking this because of the inclusion of the words "good" and "or don't
> understand".
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
>

Rosie claims the steps do not work for her unless she is drugged.
Ironically, she repeatedly demonstrates a less than passing knowledge of
what those steps actually are.

Bob

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bq7mbh$1to7s9$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...

<snip>
>
> Rosie claims the steps do not work for her unless she is drugged.
> Ironically, she repeatedly demonstrates a less than passing
knowledge of
> what those steps actually are.
>
> Bob

This evening, I've been reading Step 4 in the 12 x 12. When I got to
the section which begins::

"The sponsors of those who feel they need no
inventory.................

and ends:

"Where other people were concerned, we had to drop the word "blame"
from our speech and thought ...........

....we had started to get a perspective on ourselves, which is another
way of saying that we were gaining humility."

I immediately thought of Rosie and Harry :^))

Yours

JB.
>
>
>

[Moonraker]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bq8ojt$f3n$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
which is another
> way of saying that we were gaining humility."
>
> I immediately thought of Rosie and Harry :^))
>

You used the words humility and Rosie in the same thought? There's an
oxymoron if ever I saw one

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bq8ojt$f3n$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bq7mbh$1to7s9$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> <snip>
> >
> > Rosie claims the steps do not work for her unless she is drugged.
> > Ironically, she repeatedly demonstrates a less than passing
> knowledge of
> > what those steps actually are.
> >
> > Bob
>
> This evening, I've been reading Step 4 in the 12 x 12. When I got to
> the section which begins::
>
> "The sponsors of those who feel they need no
> inventory.................
>
> and ends:
>
> "Where other people were concerned, we had to drop the word "blame"
> from our speech and thought ...........
>
> ...we had started to get a perspective on ourselves, which is another
> way of saying that we were gaining humility."
>
> I immediately thought of Rosie and Harry :^))

What you pasted above was certainly *not* step four. Regarding your own step
four, would it be better to take your own inventory? Jeez, I would not be in
the least surprised if you would benefit greatly by doing step three
thoroughly.

I keep finding more evidence supporting my early decision to discard Bill's
12 + 12, written privately (As distinct from with group conscience) for
personal gain by a hustler, enduring long term suicidal depression, yet with
enough front to instruct others on how to be "Happy, Joyous, and Free.

Bob

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 00:07:39 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>This evening, I've been reading Step 4 in the 12 x 12.

I'm just wondering if anyone has suggested you focus on the 12x12 for
recovery. I certainly didn't, and today I can see it has more holes
than a mouldy swiss cheese. I found it a useful reference in one or
two areas I was otherwise struggling with, but I didn't use it to
recover and I am also aware of the spiritual condition its author was
in when it was written - terrible. It certainly is the sort of book a
depressed person would write. It also amazes me how many AA "Step"
meetings use the 12x12 as their primary focus, in preference to the
Big Book.

Why? Because Bill had a propensity to confuse what really had to be
done in order to recover, with what could be done in order to feel
better. In this regard, he was more than useless because he was
prescribing actions that either he clearly hadn't taken himself, or
clearly hadn't worked for him.

Step 4 in the 12x12 is particularly awful, but might contain little
gems for the individual (one which helped me was the idea of being
"dominated" by society). So, with that said,

>"Where other people were concerned, we had to drop the word "blame"
>from our speech and thought ...........

Whilst this could be a useful principle to apply in overcoming issues
such as resentments and simply to get on better with people, it's
certainly not a requisite for the inventory process that IS Step 4 and
so the words "had to" are really out of place in any context other
than inventory "had to" be written.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:QGRxb.19934$W7.9218@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bq8ojt$f3n$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> which is another
> > way of saying that we were gaining humility."
> >
> > I immediately thought of Rosie and Harry :^))
> >
>
> You used the words humility and Rosie in the same thought? There's
an
> oxymoron if ever I saw one

FWIW, I've seen little evidence of her having what I think is
humility.

JB

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bq8qq6$1vfkf3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bq8ojt$f3n$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip
> >
> > This evening, I've been reading Step 4 in the 12 x 12. When I got
to
> > the section which begins::
> >
> > "The sponsors of those who feel they need no
> > inventory.................
>
> What you pasted above was certainly *not* step four. Regarding your
own step
> four, would it be better to take your own inventory? Jeez, I would
not be in
> the least surprised if you would benefit greatly by doing step three
> thoroughly.
>
> I keep finding more evidence supporting my early decision to discard
Bill's
> 12 + 12, written privately (As distinct from with group conscience)
for
> personal gain by a hustler, enduring long term suicidal depression,
yet with
> enough front to instruct others on how to be "Happy, Joyous, and
Free.
>
> Bob

At one time, your comments would have made me think about not wanting
to say anything again for fear of, in my mind, further hostile
reaction. These days, if I want to say something I will say it . If I
get feedback, I may learn something that may be helpful to me. On
this occasion, that's happened.

FWIW, I tend to take at face value what I hear or read unless I have
cause to think that I shouldn't. Today, I am re-thinking my thinking
about the 12 x 12.

I expect you know that the passage I quoted was part of a longer
section about Sponsors.

In my mind, the words: "people who are driven by pride of self
unconsciously blind themselves to their liabilities: The problem is
to help them discover a chink in the walls their ego has built ....."
and "... we slowly learned in AA that something had to be done about
our vengeful resentments, self-pity and unwarranted pride. We had to
see that every time we played the big shot, we turned people against
us. We had to see that when we harboured grudges and planned revenge
for such defeats, we were really beating ourselves with the club of
anger we had intended to use on others. We learnt that we were
seriously disturbed ...........", described Rosie and Harry
perfectly. I still think that. I also think that when my ego gets the
better of me, I behave in ways that it would better for me not to.
When this happens, sometimes, I later regret what I have done.

FWIW, when I posted my message, my sole purpose was to swipe at Rosie
and Harry. I regret my decision to swipe at Harry. FWIW, my Sponsor
knows that Rosie's name appears on my inventory. FWIW, I know that
if I want to stop her ever getting under my skin, I need to do more
work on myself.. FWIW, she bothers me far less than she used to.

Neither Rosie nor Harry are compelled (I hope that's the right word)
to take any notice of anything I say. You don't. No -one does.

Yours

JB

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:37:02 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>"... we slowly learned in AA that something had to be done about
>our vengeful resentments, self-pity and unwarranted pride. We had to
>see that every time we played the big shot, we turned people against
>us. We had to see that when we harboured grudges and planned revenge
>for such defeats, we were really beating ourselves with the club of
>anger we had intended to use on others. We learnt that we were
>seriously disturbed ...........", described Rosie and Harry
>perfectly. I still think that.

Arguably this inventory applies more to Rosie, because Harry is still
drinking whereas Rosie claims to both be sober and have gained
something from AA. Hence the passage above is bullshit when applied
in the context of an AA member unwilling to change. "...we slowly
learned... had to see ..."??? Of course, Rosie is also still using,
and in some ways is worse than Harry because at least he knows he
needs to quit.

This topic can lead to the circular argument about mind-altering drugs
being okay if prescribed by a doctor, therefore we're playing amateur
doctors. Nonsense. I'm sure there are plenty here who are prescribed
mind-altering meds who have no need to defend the practice, and are
getting along just fine. To them I'd suggest carry on doing what
you're doing, it is clearly working, just be aware of your options
should it stop working, and those options do go beyond what most
doctors would offer.

However, to those depressed whilst on antidepressants the message is
clear, even if they're being blind-sided by a doctor - the fact you're
depressed clearly indicates that the ADs are not working.

>FWIW, when I posted my message, my sole purpose was to swipe at Rosie
>and Harry. I regret my decision to swipe at Harry. FWIW, my Sponsor
>knows that Rosie's name appears on my inventory.

Your inventory. If my name was on your inventory, what would be
gained by telling me that?

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5d74fc6be3527b039a98e3f61d4c5dfc@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:37:02 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:
<snip>
>
> >FWIW, when I posted my message, my sole purpose was to swipe at
Rosie
> >and Harry. I regret my decision to swipe at Harry. FWIW, my
Sponsor
> >knows that Rosie's name appears on my inventory.
>
> Your inventory. If my name was on your inventory, what would be
> gained by telling me that?

Hi Blue,

I think it's important to see what you have quoted in context:

"FWIW, my Sponsor knows that Rosie's name appears on my inventory.
FWIW, I know that if I want to stop her ever getting under my skin, I
need to do more work on myself.. FWIW, she bothers me far less than
she used to".

I said what I did because I wanted it known that I have made progress
in respect of learning how to deal with Rosie and also that I know I
still have a way to go. FWIW, it seemed an important thing for me to
do. I didn't give any thought to how my comment would be perceived.

At this time, I'm feeling that what I thought was the right thing for
me to do was not the right thing for me to do in your eyes. If that
is the case, does it matter ? That is a genuine question.

Yours

JB

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:33:31 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I said what I did because I wanted it known that I have made progress
>in respect of learning how to deal with Rosie and also that I know I
>still have a way to go. FWIW, it seemed an important thing for me to
>do. I didn't give any thought to how my comment would be perceived.
>
>At this time, I'm feeling that what I thought was the right thing for
>me to do was not the right thing for me to do in your eyes. If that
>is the case, does it matter ? That is a genuine question.

It probably depends on your motives, such as whether you're trying to
incite change, and the question of who needs convincing that you're
making progress? Principles before personalities - I can say that
some here caused me difficulties which I'm learning to overcome,
without putting names to them. If specifics are required, I can cite
specific instances which could include names.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:453ad1aecf4d5b2ded4619dd896df407@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 18:33:31 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:
>
> >I said what I did because I wanted it known that I have made
progress
> >in respect of learning how to deal with Rosie and also that I know
I
> >still have a way to go. FWIW, it seemed an important thing for me
to
> >do. I didn't give any thought to how my comment would be
perceived.
> >
> >At this time, I'm feeling that what I thought was the right thing
for
> >me to do was not the right thing for me to do in your eyes. If
that
> >is the case, does it matter ? That is a genuine question.
>
> It probably depends on your motives, such as whether you're trying
to
> incite change, and the question of who needs convincing that you're
> making progress? Principles before personalities - I can say that
> some here caused me difficulties which I'm learning to overcome,
> without putting names to them. If specifics are required, I can
cite
> specific instances which could include names.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

I understand what you're saying. Thank you.

JB