To Harry

[Jonathan Bratt]

Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this for a
while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past that
need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I am no
longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but she
refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt. This will
be the case next week.

She said that until this had taken place my mind would be clouded and
unable to be truthful and positive. I can only say she was right. Had I
seen someone 3 months ago it would have been worse than a waste of time
- it would have convinced me that my problems were intractable and would
probably have encouraged me to carry on drinking

Now I have perspective. I will be able to tackle the underlying issues.
I hope you can do the same.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:33:28 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this for a
> while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past that
> need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I am no
> longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but she
> refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt. This will
> be the case next week.

Thank you for the post.

Just now, three months seems like a long time. Three days is
a long time. Three hours is a long time.

But I think you're right. The alcohol needs to get flushed
out first. Three months is probably about what that would
take.

I just get to about the three week point, which I have done
several times now, and then I start to flip out. If med's can
help me get past that, then med's it will be. Whether it is
the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
really matter.

I have been reading the depression group. It seems that it
usually takes some time to get them to kick in and to get the
doses right.

[rosie read and post]

jonathan,
it is WONDERFUL to read that you are coming up on three
months.........................HOW FABULOUS!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328



"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:$dgs2VT4Nkx$Ewrw@aol.com...
> Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this
for a
> while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past
that
> need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I
am no
> longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but
she
> refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt.
This will
> be the case next week.
>
> She said that until this had taken place my mind would be clouded
and
> unable to be truthful and positive. I can only say she was right.
Had I
> seen someone 3 months ago it would have been worse than a waste of
time
> - it would have convinced me that my problems were intractable and
would
> probably have encouraged me to carry on drinking
>
> Now I have perspective. I will be able to tackle the underlying
issues.
> I hope you can do the same.
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <nkicsv4rtj5i22g0g7mleloofpfrh0mrel@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:33:28 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
>> Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this for a
>> while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past that
>> need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I am no
>> longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but she
>> refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt. This will
>> be the case next week.
>
>Thank you for the post.
>
>Just now, three months seems like a long time. Three days is
>a long time. Three hours is a long time.
>
>But I think you're right. The alcohol needs to get flushed
>out first. Three months is probably about what that would
>take.
>
>I just get to about the three week point, which I have done
>several times now, and then I start to flip out. If med's can
>help me get past that, then med's it will be. Whether it is
>the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
>really matter.
>
>I have been reading the depression group. It seems that it
>usually takes some time to get them to kick in and to get the
>doses right.
>

This is very true. What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
There are two elements to medication - a mood stabiliser which was
essential to me, and an anti-depressant to lift my general mood. For me
the two taken together have had dramatic results - it was like seeing in
colour again. One hint - don't touch seroxat with a barge pole - it made
me feel suicidal, something that has never happened before or since.
I've found Efexor - or venlaflaxine - to be excellent. My ex reckoned it
saved his life when his mother committed suicide. All things to discuss
with your doc anyhow.

But I would say that while alcohol is still influencing you, it will be
difficult to tackle your issues. I realise it's a bit chicken and egg,
but who said it was easy :-)

Best of luck - feel free to mail me privately anytime.

Jonathan
--
Jonathan Bratt

[debs]

I would second what Jonathon is saying.
An AD generally takes about 3 - 4 weeks to knock in and a mood stabiliser
maybe longer.........BUT any good effects will immediately be cancelled out
by consuming alcohol.
It doesn't matter if you do it 3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days or even 3 minutes
at a time....just do it.
At this point if you need meds to assist you then use them......worry about
one thing at a time. The alcohol is killing you much faster than a good
well thought out AD or mood stabiliser will. Try to stay away from benzos
long term they are addictive.
Be totally up front and honest with any doctors looking after you. They can
only treat you for what you present to them. Raise concerns about meds if
you have them and make sure that you do your own research as well.....the
net is a mind of info.
I think I am trying to say....take an active part in your recovery.....make
it your work for the next few weeks...it will be the most important project
you have ever undertaken....aim high.

best wishes
debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:j9sr+SUKglx$Ewa2@aol.com...
> In message <nkicsv4rtj5i22g0g7mleloofpfrh0mrel@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
> <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
> >[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:33:28 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
> >
> >> Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this for a
> >> while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past that
> >> need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I am no
> >> longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but she
> >> refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt. This
will
> >> be the case next week.
> >
> >Thank you for the post.
> >
> >Just now, three months seems like a long time. Three days is
> >a long time. Three hours is a long time.
> >
> >But I think you're right. The alcohol needs to get flushed
> >out first. Three months is probably about what that would
> >take.
> >
> >I just get to about the three week point, which I have done
> >several times now, and then I start to flip out. If med's can
> >help me get past that, then med's it will be. Whether it is
> >the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
> >really matter.
> >
> >I have been reading the depression group. It seems that it
> >usually takes some time to get them to kick in and to get the
> >doses right.
> >
>
> This is very true. What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
> There are two elements to medication - a mood stabiliser which was
> essential to me, and an anti-depressant to lift my general mood. For me
> the two taken together have had dramatic results - it was like seeing in
> colour again. One hint - don't touch seroxat with a barge pole - it made
> me feel suicidal, something that has never happened before or since.
> I've found Efexor - or venlaflaxine - to be excellent. My ex reckoned it
> saved his life when his mother committed suicide. All things to discuss
> with your doc anyhow.
>
> But I would say that while alcohol is still influencing you, it will be
> difficult to tackle your issues. I realise it's a bit chicken and egg,
> but who said it was easy :-)
>
> Best of luck - feel free to mail me privately anytime.
>
> Jonathan
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

[debs]

well done jonathon

debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:j9sr+SUKglx$Ewa2@aol.com...
> In message <nkicsv4rtj5i22g0g7mleloofpfrh0mrel@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
> <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
> >[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:33:28 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
> >
> >> Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this for a
> >> while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past that
> >> need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I am no
> >> longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but she
> >> refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt. This
will
> >> be the case next week.
> >
> >Thank you for the post.
> >
> >Just now, three months seems like a long time. Three days is
> >a long time. Three hours is a long time.
> >
> >But I think you're right. The alcohol needs to get flushed
> >out first. Three months is probably about what that would
> >take.
> >
> >I just get to about the three week point, which I have done
> >several times now, and then I start to flip out. If med's can
> >help me get past that, then med's it will be. Whether it is
> >the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
> >really matter.
> >
> >I have been reading the depression group. It seems that it
> >usually takes some time to get them to kick in and to get the
> >doses right.
> >
>
> This is very true. What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
> There are two elements to medication - a mood stabiliser which was
> essential to me, and an anti-depressant to lift my general mood. For me
> the two taken together have had dramatic results - it was like seeing in
> colour again. One hint - don't touch seroxat with a barge pole - it made
> me feel suicidal, something that has never happened before or since.
> I've found Efexor - or venlaflaxine - to be excellent. My ex reckoned it
> saved his life when his mother committed suicide. All things to discuss
> with your doc anyhow.
>
> But I would say that while alcohol is still influencing you, it will be
> difficult to tackle your issues. I realise it's a bit chicken and egg,
> but who said it was easy :-)
>
> Best of luck - feel free to mail me privately anytime.
>
> Jonathan
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <WHsxb.68498$Vu6.23132@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie read and
post <readandpost@yahoo.com> writes
>jonathan,
>it is WONDERFUL to read that you are coming up on three
>months.........................HOW FABULOUS!
>
Thanks rosie - a year ago I would never have believed it possible. Next
I work with the CBT psychologist, work through my issues, and put the
last coupla years behind me. Although I would not voluntarily go through
it, the experience has taught me - and is still teaching me - a lot.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bq5nah$740$1@sparta.btinternet.com>, debs
<debs172@hotmail.com> writes
>well done jonathon
>
>debs

Thanks - it's nice to be one of the good news stories for a change -
LOL!
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Bpyboy]

yup harry, three hours IS a long time, that's why you only think for the
second! Here and now, that is the only thing that matters. Three seconds
turns into a couple of minutes, and that turns into a couple of days, and then
months.

Here and now man! THAT is what you should be worried about.

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?

I haven't been diagnosed with anything -- except by myself,
and I'm obviously not qualified. I have only had two
appointments with my psychiatrist so far. (If my f'ing bank
hadn't f'ed up my accout, there would have been three.)

I make it out to be a whole combination of things.
Depression, anxiety, obsessive/compulsive. Could be bipolar.

Happily enough, it seems that these are all treated in much
the same way. So maybe we don't need to get an accurate
diagnosis.

My shink has mentioned that she is thinking about Effexor, or
some other mood leveler. There have been comments in the
depression group that sometimes people have to get to fairly
high doses in order for it to have any effect. I suspect that
will be the case with me, regardless of whatever she
prescribes.

Things like my bank screwing up my account are close to
impossible for me to deal. If it was your account, I would
have no problem dealing with it -- that is the type of thing I
am good at. It is very strange.

Thank you again for your posts.

[Bpyboy]

I'll give you a tip Jonathan, for me at least, the anti depressants one there
own caused WICKED cycling of an un-diagnosed bipolar problem. I would be HIGH
AS A KITE for a couple weeks, then just get really pissed off and start
smashing things. It is a terrible feeling, to know you are acting so
irrationally, but you aren't able to have control over it!

a couple weeks after the booze wore off, my mood "stabilized" into one of
general depression and a complete lack of motivation. but at least it WAS
stabile, and that was something to work with.

but, your shrink is right. Not being on the booze takes an enormous piece out
of the puzzle. the interaction with alcohol and prescription drugs, in my
experience, proved VERY troubling. I had a couple weird seizure/freak outs
myself, back when I was drinking. Funny thing, it's a good idea not to wash
down anti-deps with a can of beer!

Take care, and way to go on the 3 months!!!! there is life after the bottle!

John

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> My ex reckoned it
> saved his life when his mother committed suicide.

You know, there seems to be a thing about losing a parent. My
father did just fine until his mother died, and then he blew
out. In his case it was definitely depression, so I suspect
that is the same for me.

It was sort of like he had an obligation to keep it under
control while his mother was alive, but then he lost that
obligation with her death. He bacame suicidal.

I have lost both parents, my wife, and one of my two kids is
now an adult. So I have very little reason to live. Unless I
invent one, which maybe I can do.

I think this is all relevant to my problems.

I could go on here, but I've made my point.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <20031127190016.05208.00000795@mb-m21.aol.com>, Bpyboy
<bpyboy@aol.com> writes
>I'll give you a tip Jonathan, for me at least, the anti depressants one there
>own caused WICKED cycling of an un-diagnosed bipolar problem. I would be HIGH
>AS A KITE for a couple weeks, then just get really pissed off and start
>smashing things. It is a terrible feeling, to know you are acting so
>irrationally, but you aren't able to have control over it!
>
>a couple weeks after the booze wore off, my mood "stabilized" into one of
>general depression and a complete lack of motivation. but at least it WAS
>stabile, and that was something to work with.
>
>but, your shrink is right. Not being on the booze takes an enormous piece out
>of the puzzle. the interaction with alcohol and prescription drugs, in my
>experience, proved VERY troubling. I had a couple weird seizure/freak outs
>myself, back when I was drinking. Funny thing, it's a good idea not to wash
>down anti-deps with a can of beer!
>
>Take care, and way to go on the 3 months!!!! there is life after the bottle!
>
>John

You're quite right. I have to take both. Lithium to stabilise the
overall move and prevent mania, and Efexor which lift my mood and gives
me some motivation. I'm hoping that they wont be forever meds, but since
there would appear to be no side effects, it's not something I'm
stressing about. But drinking negates the effect of the AD making it
totally pointless. Without booze it does its work admirably: today I
accomplished the tasks I needed to do before 11am. Several months ago it
would literally have taken a week.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[The Other Harry]

[On 28 Nov 2003 00:00:16 GMT, bpyboy@aol.com (Bpyboy)
wrote:]

> I'll give you a tip Jonathan, for me at least, the anti depressants one there
> own caused WICKED cycling of an un-diagnosed bipolar problem. I would be HIGH
> AS A KITE for a couple weeks, then just get really pissed off and start
> smashing things. It is a terrible feeling, to know you are acting so
> irrationally, but you aren't able to have control over it!
>
> a couple weeks after the booze wore off, my mood "stabilized" into one of
> general depression and a complete lack of motivation. but at least it WAS
> stabile, and that was something to work with.
>
> but, your shrink is right. Not being on the booze takes an enormous piece out
> of the puzzle. the interaction with alcohol and prescription drugs, in my
> experience, proved VERY troubling. I had a couple weird seizure/freak outs
> myself, back when I was drinking.

That was a good message too.

You could well have been writing about me. I have smashed
things. The rage I feel when I get sober is tangible. It is
a serious problem. Five stars.

I do appreciate the feedback I have been getting here. As I
have said, I have currently pulled back and I am preparing to
take another run at the dragon.

I know -- do it *now*. But I can't do it the way(s) I did it
before. The failures get worse and more frustrating each
time. Plus, I am killing myself.

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:13:27 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> but since there would appear to be no side effects...

Don't be so sure about that. At least monitor your vitals and
watch your cholesterol level. Effexor can apparently be bad
on the cholesterol.

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:nkicsv4rtj5i22g0g7mleloofpfrh0mrel@4ax.com...
>Whether it is
> the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
> really matter.

Obviously, that "Robert" does not believe, say, or even imply that, doesn't
really matter to Harry, at all. Any excuse for procrastination has been
expedient for Harry, and kept Harry drinking, so far


Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:02:59 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> >Whether it is
> > the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
> > really matter.
>
> Obviously, that "Robert" does not believe, say, or even imply that, doesn't
> really matter to Harry, at all. Any excuse for procrastination has been
> expedient for Harry, and kept Harry drinking, so far

My above comment was not intended to be any kind of swipe at
you, Robert. I think it is possible that there is a placebo
effect to the med's.

I don't know how long it took you to quit drinking. Maybe you
did it better and faster than I have. If so, my compliments
to you. Sincerely.

I started trying to quit in late May, and I have been sober
for about half the time since then. I know that isn't very
good. And I do make my excuses.

But in talking with people at detox and at AA meetings, I do
not think this is unusual. I have been drinking heavily and
regularly for 35 years, especially during the past few years.
Like nearly a quart of scotch a day.

So I am not going to be too hard on myself if it takes me a
few tries to get it right. I don't give myself too much
longer though.

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:kuhdsvkvtb1in7bs21qj9k1lm8h9kbjcn7@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:02:59 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]
>
> I don't know how long it took you to quit drinking. Maybe you
> did it better and faster than I have. If so, my compliments
> to you. Sincerely.

After countless tries at quitting, procrastinating, quitting, forgetting I
was supposed to have quit, promising but not quitting, planning, but not
quitting, blah, blah, blah, I heard of the "One Day At A Time" plan. Not
exposed to any other AA stuff than "ODAAT" I simply came to the conclusion I
was sick and tired of trying to do what was impossible for me, drink
sensibly, and trying to count my drinks took any fun out of drinking anyway.
So, (after betting a workmate I could do it for a set period that I can't
remember offhand) I started the ODAAT plan, collected on my bet, and kept on
with the ODAAT.

Gradually, I became far less gregarious than I had been, and when I *was*
with others, it was often suggested I have a drink or two, and lighten up. I
stayed dry, often the only motive in the mind of this man of many motives
was to stay dry just to astound the bastards. Used to go to the bar most
every night, drink lolly water, and tease the barflies just by being there.

After about eight years, my once large circle of friends had dropped
frighteningly close to Zero. Decided I needed a good woman, the one I had
just dropped was way below my imagined "status." I got a good woman, but she
longed for Saturday nights, dinner and dancing, and a shared bottle of wine.
Frightened of "losing" her, I decided that after all that time, I had a 50%
chance of drinking sensibly by then, and decided to give it a try.

Drove to a city about 2 hours away, where few would be likely to know me if
my experiment failed. Went into a bar, and bought a small bottle of stout,
drank it, and left the bar. Jeez, I was proud of myself. "You've got it
beat," I thought. Called in at a bar on the way home, where many folk I knew
used to stop for "one for the road" There was no one there I knew, but I
decided to have one for the road anyway. .... I have no idea how I got me
or my car back home. About then, I moved into a room above a bar, and
started counting those drinks again, trying to work out my limit. I never
ever did find my limit.

Naturally, that classy lady dropped me like a hot potato, before even *one*
Saturday night dinner and dance.

Things went from worse to terrible, and that classy lady *posted* me a book
on primal therapy, and how it cured alcoholics. Determined to have the very
best, I sought out the highest credentialed primal therapist in the country,
(He was also an accredited doctor and psychiatrist) and flew to the other
end of the country to get cured. They shut me up in a padded cell, and did
their stuff. After two weeks, I became an outpatient, and got drunk the
first day, and every other day. Wrote the clinic a letter explaining how I
had been ripped off and demanded my money back, so they gave me another bite
at their cherry, at no extra cost to me. Of course, again, I got drunk

Went on a bender for years, six I think, (later estimated my 5 year average
BAC prior to stopping at .09%, but that was with the relative honesty of
sober hindsight.) then turned up at the proverbial last house on the block,
an AA meeting, to snip someone for a drink. I was 58 years old. While
waiting for the babbling to stop, I saw those steps written up on the wall,
and started taking them, even though I was the proverbial "half" drunk. I
have never had another drink since.

Smile sometimes at the stories of demons and terrors, they seemed as much a
part of reality as anything else, the time I got sober. Our own case is
always the worst, isn't it. I do know I was shaking badly at least 3 weeks
later. Never did detox, that was for wimps. Used to read that bloody Big
Book, chasing the words as they floated all over the page, but I was
prepared to go to any lengths to recover, and after about 6 - 8 years, one
day at a time, taking the steps that deal specifically with underlying
issues, and without a drink, I had recovered from that craving, obsession,
and worst of all, the desolation of hopelessness.

Bob

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:qb2dsvknqjfr92ua03s8g9k99pv55bl7e5@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
> > What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
>
> I haven't been diagnosed with anything -- except by myself,
> and I'm obviously not qualified. I have only had two
> appointments with my psychiatrist so far. (If my f'ing bank
> hadn't f'ed up my accout, there would have been three.)

<snip>

> Things like my bank screwing up my account are close to
> impossible for me to deal. If it was your account, I would
> have no problem dealing with it -- that is the type of thing I
> am good at. It is very strange.
>
> Thank you again for your posts.

Hi,

I'm wondering what happened with your bank account ? You've
mentioned at least once that you don't have a job so I'm assuming that
you live on savings and maybe benefits.. I think that you must spend
quite a lot of what you have each week on booze. I'm wondering
whether you have had to cut back on heating, electricity and food for
example, in order to have enough money to buy the amount of booze you
want to drink each week.. If you live in rented accommodation, is it
likely that you will soon not able to afford your rent. ? Will you
soon not be able to afford to tax, insure and put petrol in your car ?

Yours

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <qb2dsvknqjfr92ua03s8g9k99pv55bl7e5@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
>> What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
>
>I haven't been diagnosed with anything -- except by myself,
>and I'm obviously not qualified. I have only had two
>appointments with my psychiatrist so far. (If my f'ing bank
>hadn't f'ed up my accout, there would have been three.)

It should not take long for a shrink to diagnose if you are suffering
from depression and if so what kind. However the drink may well be a
large factor in this - I'm afraid there can be no progress until it
goes.
>
>I make it out to be a whole combination of things.
>Depression, anxiety, obsessive/compulsive. Could be bipolar.
>
>Happily enough, it seems that these are all treated in much
>the same way. So maybe we don't need to get an accurate
>diagnosis.

No they are not! Bi-polar in particular requires a different treatment.
If you were merely to give ADs to someone with bi-polar it could have
disastrous results. Someone with BP needs a stabiliser such as Lithium
first and foremost. That may by itself lift the depression, but only
when your mood has stabilised can you be assesses for anything further.
>
>My shink has mentioned that she is thinking about Effexor, or
>some other mood leveler.

It's *not* a mood leveller - it's a mood 'enhancer' .Good for treating
depression and motivating.

>There have been comments in the
>depression group that sometimes people have to get to fairly
>high doses in order for it to have any effect. I suspect that
>will be the case with me, regardless of whatever she
>prescribes.

I started on 35 per day, moved up to 75, and now settled on 150. Some
people go on up to 300.
>
>Things like my bank screwing up my account are close to
>impossible for me to deal. If it was your account, I would
>have no problem dealing with it -- that is the type of thing I
>am good at. It is very strange.

I was trying to deal with the sale of my flat which was being royally
screwed up by the professionals. It was stressing me out beyond belief
and giving me a nice fat excuse to drink. It was only when I decided to
stop and take control of the process myself that it went through. I had
been terrified of the prospect for weeks - it took 3 days. It's not a
question of your ability - you have to make the decision to deal, rather
like holding your nose and swallowing nasty medicine. Decide you will
deal with these things, start it, and you will be amazed how soon you
get into it. The sense of achievement when you have done it is wonderful
and inspirational.
>
>Thank you again for your posts.

Anytime - you know how to get hold of me.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <od6dsvkgfr2rcscra0laqt5b9ok8ibb038@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 00:13:27 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
>> but since there would appear to be no side effects...
>
>Don't be so sure about that. At least monitor your vitals and
>watch your cholesterol level. Effexor can apparently be bad
>on the cholesterol.
>
I have regular blood tests. You do if you are on lithium
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <9n3dsvslu4fql7120hjo9kumcn8qn64agn@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>I have lost both parents, my wife, and one of my two kids is now an
>adult. So I have very little reason to live. Unless I invent one,
>which maybe I can do.

I was chatting to a guy yesterday who called me an ambulance when I took
too many pills and too much vodka in the hotel where he worked. Before
it arrived he wrote me a letter which I never got. His brother had
committed suicide 2 years earlier, and the letter was to tell me about
all the people that are touched by such an event, and how awful it was
never being able to say good bye.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bq6dn2$1vil32$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert
McGregor <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>
>"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:nkicsv4rtj5i22g0g7mleloofpfrh0mrel@4ax.com...
>>Whether it is
>> the placebo effect or not -- as Robert says it is -- doesn't
>> really matter.
>
>Obviously, that "Robert" does not believe, say, or even imply that, doesn't
>really matter to Harry, at all. Any excuse for procrastination has been
>expedient for Harry, and kept Harry drinking, so far

With the attitude you display - why should anything you say matter to
him? It certainly doesn't to me any more.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Robert McGregor]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cnREoph+Byx$EwNx@aol.com...
>
> With the attitude you display - why should anything you say matter to
> him? It certainly doesn't to me any more.
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

http://www.petitiononline.com/effexor/
"We the individuals listed below have electronically signed this petition
for the purpose of making it known that consumers treated with the SSNRI
antidepressant Effexor have or are experiencing "often ignored" serious side
effects of this medication. And that thousands of patients in the US and
worldwide are unable to discontinue Effexor or even reduce dosage due to the
rapid onset of severe withdrawal-like symptoms which often initiates before
a patient begins dose reduction due to the short half-life of Effexor.
Documentation of which the manufacturer, Wyeth-Ayerst has gradually
disclosed now some 8 years after this drug was first licensed, being aware
of these problems all along but failing to communicate this knowledge to the
public and the medical community. "

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:32:48 -0000, "JB"
<JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]

> I'm wondering what happened with your bank account ?

That is sort of a long story. I don't really want to go into
all the details here.

The base part is they fail to overdraft my checking account
against my VISA card, but it gets more complicated than that.
They are not doing what they are supposed to do.

They charge me for it tho.

> You've
> mentioned at least once that you don't have a job so I'm assuming that
> you live on savings and maybe benefits.

Savings. I have no benefits. I wish I did.

> I think that you must spend
> quite a lot of what you have each week on booze. I'm wondering
> whether you have had to cut back on heating, electricity and food for
> example, in order to have enough money to buy the amount of booze you
> want to drink each week.. If you live in rented accommodation, is it
> likely that you will soon not able to afford your rent. ? Will you
> soon not be able to afford to tax, insure and put petrol in your car ?

The money is an issue. I own the house, free and clear, but
there are the other things. All the other stuff adds up.

The psychiatrist is cheap.

But it is things like this that drive me nuts.

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bq793b$1vh39n$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:cnREoph+Byx$EwNx@aol.com...
> >
> > With the attitude you display - why should anything you say matter
to
> > him? It certainly doesn't to me any more.
> > --
> > Jonathan Bratt

Hi,

FWIW, I think Bob's decision to tell us about his past, his years of
building for himself a life of "quality" sobriety and his
appreciation of the need to not "beat about the bush" when dealing
with people with drinking habits that are or could be endangering
their lives, enables him to inform many of the discussions that take
place here in ways that neither you nor I can.

Yours

JB

PS; If I remember correctly, you have about three months of sobriety
under your belt. I have nearly six . Do you think we both deserve
congratulations ? :^)).

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:37:27 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> If you were merely to give ADs to someone with bi-polar it could have
> disastrous results. Someone with BP needs a stabiliser such as Lithium
> first and foremost. That may by itself lift the depression, but only
> when your mood has stabilised can you be assesses for anything further.

Again, I don't know.

They gave lith to my father in fairly heavy dosages with no
result. The dosages didn't matter.

I think I am like that. I'm guessing.

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:14:17 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> His brother had
> committed suicide 2 years earlier, and the letter was to tell me about
> all the people that are touched by such an event, and how awful it was
> never being able to say good bye.

This touches a bit too close to home.

My mother's mother committed suicide shortly after she was
born. She (my mother) kept the bullet in a box.

Lovely. Very nice.

I will say it again: People who do not know about this
*really* do not know about it. You can talk about it to them,
but they have no idea.

That includes the shrinks.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bq793b$1vh39n$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert
McGregor <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:cnREoph+Byx$EwNx@aol.com...
>>
>> With the attitude you display - why should anything you say matter to
>> him? It certainly doesn't to me any more.
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>http://www.petitiononline.com/effexor/
>"We the individuals listed below have electronically signed this petition
>for the purpose of making it known that consumers treated with the SSNRI
>antidepressant Effexor have or are experiencing "often ignored" serious side
>effects of this medication. And that thousands of patients in the US and
>worldwide are unable to discontinue Effexor or even reduce dosage due to the
>rapid onset of severe withdrawal-like symptoms which often initiates before
>a patient begins dose reduction due to the short half-life of Effexor.
>Documentation of which the manufacturer, Wyeth-Ayerst has gradually
>disclosed now some 8 years after this drug was first licensed, being aware
>of these problems all along but failing to communicate this knowledge to the
>public and the medical community. "
>
Side effects with all drugs. So what?
>

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bq7cd4$dcb$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
writes
>
>FWIW, I think Bob's decision to tell us about his past, his years of
>building for himself a life of "quality" sobriety and his appreciation
>of the need to not "beat about the bush" when dealing with people with
>drinking habits that are or could be endangering their lives, enables
>him to inform many of the discussions that take place here in ways
>that neither you nor I can.

Indeed. And I came across said post after I had made mine. Such posts
make me interested in listening to him - I had been going - not
unreasonably - on his 'faggot' posts of recent days which unsurprisingly
did not dispose me kindly towards his contributions.

--
Jonathan Bratt

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:16:30 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

> With the attitude you display - why should anything you say matter to
> him? It certainly doesn't to me any more.

Let's not do that. There are other ways for all of us to piss
into the wind.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:k2besvgktu5ql1s20umugf3gi1j10l8p09@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:32:48 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > I'm wondering what happened with your bank account ?
>
> That is sort of a long story. I don't really want to go into
> all the details here.
>
> The base part is they fail to overdraft my checking account
> against my VISA card, but it gets more complicated than that.
> They are not doing what they are supposed to do.

Have they told you that you have exceeded your overdraft limit ?

<snip>.
> The money is an issue. I own the house, free and clear, but
> there are the other things. All the other stuff adds up.
>
> The psychiatrist is cheap.
>
> But it is things like this that drive me nuts.

If you budget on a weekly basis for example, what proportion of your
spending would normally go on booze ? Does the amount you spend on
it leave you unable to afford all of what you would consider to be
"other essentials". What would these be ?

JB

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ctcesvkr6b4ga9uun8ss0367l0eb6r7fce@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:14:17 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

<snip>

> I will say it again: People who do not know about this
> *really* do not know about it. You can talk about it to them,
> but they have no idea.
>
> That includes the shrinks.

LOL. I'm thinking that it will not be long before you decide that
*no* shrink is going to be able to help you. Maybe, you've already
decided this ?

JB

[JB]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:AXSDUtmxszx$Ew9G@aol.com...
> In message <bq7cd4$dcb$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB
<JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> writes
> >
> >FWIW, I think Bob's decision to tell us about his past, his years
of
> >building for himself a life of "quality" sobriety and his
appreciation
> >of the need to not "beat about the bush" when dealing with people
with
> >drinking habits that are or could be endangering their lives,
enables
> >him to inform many of the discussions that take place here in
ways
> >that neither you nor I can.
>
> Indeed. And I came across said post after I had made mine. Such
posts
> make me interested in listening to him - I had been going - not
> unreasonably - on his 'faggot' posts of recent days which
unsurprisingly
> did not dispose me kindly towards his contributions.
>
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

Hi again,

FWIW, I am glad that you have just said what you did..

Best regards

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <4dcesvsnplvddvnsgkcr8turqn2qabif3b@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:37:27 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
>> If you were merely to give ADs to someone with bi-polar it could have
>> disastrous results. Someone with BP needs a stabiliser such as Lithium
>> first and foremost. That may by itself lift the depression, but only
>> when your mood has stabilised can you be assesses for anything further.
>
>Again, I don't know.
>
>They gave lith to my father in fairly heavy dosages with no
>result. The dosages didn't matter.
>
>I think I am like that. I'm guessing.

The lithium needs to reach a 'therapeutic' level in the blood 0.4
apparently. Different people may take different levels.

And Harry - with the greatest of respect - guessing isn't good enough.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <ctcesvkr6b4ga9uun8ss0367l0eb6r7fce@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:14:17 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
>> His brother had
>> committed suicide 2 years earlier, and the letter was to tell me about
>> all the people that are touched by such an event, and how awful it was
>> never being able to say good bye.
>
>This touches a bit too close to home.
>
>My mother's mother committed suicide shortly after she was
>born. She (my mother) kept the bullet in a box.
>
>Lovely. Very nice.
>
>I will say it again: People who do not know about this
>*really* do not know about it. You can talk about it to them,
>but they have no idea.
>
>That includes the shrinks.

The shrink's job is to work with your reactions to it. They cannot
change what happened but they can help you in the way you respond and
behave.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9n3dsvslu4fql7120hjo9kumcn8qn64agn@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
> > My ex reckoned it
> > saved his life when his mother committed suicide.
>
> You know, there seems to be a thing about losing a parent. My
> father did just fine until his mother died, and then he blew
> out. In his case it was definitely depression, so I suspect
> that is the same for me.
>
> It was sort of like he had an obligation to keep it under
> control while his mother was alive, but then he lost that
> obligation with her death. He bacame suicidal.
>
> I have lost both parents, my wife, and one of my two kids is
> now an adult. So I have very little reason to live. Unless I
> invent one, which maybe I can do.

<snip>

Hi,

You used to have various interests:

Wild birds Newsgroups: rec.birds
Digital photography Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
Dog behaviour Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Pop-up trailers Newsgroups: alt.rv.pop-up-trailers

and took great pride in your home:

Newsgroups: alt.home.cleaning
Newsgroups: alt.home.repair

What happened ?

Yours in friendship

JB

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:qb2dsvknqjfr92ua03s8g9k99pv55bl7e5@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
> > What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
>
> I haven't been diagnosed with anything -- except by myself,

What's the old saying? A doctor who treats himself has a fool for a
patient?

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <fJIxb.21599$m7.7786@bignews3.bellsouth.net>, Moonraker
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> writes
>
>"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:qb2dsvknqjfr92ua03s8g9k99pv55bl7e5@4ax.com...
>> [On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
>> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>>
>> > What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?
>>
>> I haven't been diagnosed with anything -- except by myself,
>
>What's the old saying? A doctor who treats himself has a fool for a
>patient?
>
>
>
A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:21:27 -0000, "JB"
<JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]

> You used to have various interests:
>
> Wild birds Newsgroups: rec.birds
> Digital photography Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
> Dog behaviour Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Pop-up trailers Newsgroups: alt.rv.pop-up-trailers
>
> and took great pride in your home:
>
> Newsgroups: alt.home.cleaning
> Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
>
> What happened ?

I still have all those interests. Every one.

But in the last six months or so my focus has been on quitting
drinking and dealing with my psych issues.

"What happened" was my seizure, plus the time I spent in
detox, AA meetings, etc. All that rearranged my priorities.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:q95fsv00tnhqfuric48lhaovdisafklkcj@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 13:21:27 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > You used to have various interests:
> >
> > Wild birds Newsgroups: rec.birds
> > Digital photography Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
> > Dog behaviour Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> > Pop-up trailers Newsgroups: alt.rv.pop-up-trailers
> >
> > and took great pride in your home:
> >
> > Newsgroups: alt.home.cleaning
> > Newsgroups: alt.home.repair
> >
> > What happened ?
>
> I still have all those interests. Every one.
>
> But in the last six months or so my focus has been on quitting
> drinking and dealing with my psych issues.
>
> "What happened" was my seizure, plus the time I spent in
> detox, AA meetings, etc. All that rearranged my priorities.

You snipped the part of your post to which my comments applied:

> I have lost both parents, my wife, and one of my two kids is
> now an adult. So I have very little reason to live. Unless I
> invent one, which maybe I can do.

FWIW, you are not the only person in the world who has lost loved
ones. Not everyone who has uses their loss as an excuse to drink. As
you know, you could not have prevented your parents dying. If your
wife has left you, taking your adolescent child with her, I think it
likely that your drinking may have played a part in her leaving. Why
do I say this ? Because I've known marriages that have been broken on
account of one of the partner's alcoholism. Your alcoholism has also
robbed you of all the interests you once had. You and I know that it
may soon claim your life.

Dear Harry, for the past few weeks, you've been wallowing in
self-pity, thinking you can think your way of your predicament and
finding excuses for why you won't be able to. You are not going to
beat your illness if you carry on this way. THAT'S A FACT.

FWIW, since joining this NG, I have seen a few people with IMO,
drinking problems as bad as yours, start to turn their lives around.
John is one. Xanadu is another. From some of their posts I get the
impression that they both think their lives today are a damn sight
better than the ones they had while they were drinking. I know mine
is..

I hope you can turn your life around.

Good luck

JB

[debs]

yip the theraputic level of lithium is 0.4.
The lithium is metabalised in the kidneys so a lot depends on how well the
kidneys are working and how fast they push the drug back out of the system.
Someone with great kidneys and who drinks a great deal of water may have to
be on a higher dose than someone whos kidneys are sluggish.
Anything between 800mg and 1400mg a day for lithium is normal. Anything
over the theraputic range will make you very sick. mega doses are not used
and can be very dangerous....less is more as they say.

debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:VTBGlNp9B0x$Ewv7@aol.com...
> In message <4dcesvsnplvddvnsgkcr8turqn2qabif3b@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
> <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
> >[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:37:27 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
> >
> >> If you were merely to give ADs to someone with bi-polar it could have
> >> disastrous results. Someone with BP needs a stabiliser such as Lithium
> >> first and foremost. That may by itself lift the depression, but only
> >> when your mood has stabilised can you be assesses for anything further.
> >
> >Again, I don't know.
> >
> >They gave lith to my father in fairly heavy dosages with no
> >result. The dosages didn't matter.
> >
> >I think I am like that. I'm guessing.
>
> The lithium needs to reach a 'therapeutic' level in the blood 0.4
> apparently. Different people may take different levels.
>
> And Harry - with the greatest of respect - guessing isn't good enough.
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

[debs]

my mother died 3 years ago and after her death we found a 'suicide kit'
hidden amongst her things.
This affected me deeply and eventually I had a nervous breakdown which
involved 3 suicide attempts.
My support team (including my pdoc) have helped me rebuild a very shattered
life.
One of the most important things I had to learn was how to cope with
crisis's without turning to the bottle and without seeing pills as a way
out.
I'm not sitting here now blaming my family for the desicions I made when I
was ill and drinking but as you grow up you learn by example and drinking
unfortuantely was always set as my example of how to cope. The minute
anything went wrong my mum drank so naturally that was the message I picked
up.

A 'shrink' no matter how good will probably not be able to understand
exactly how you feel, but a good shrink will try to help you to see
alternatives to destructive behaviour. There are alternatives, but they are
not usually as easy as the quick fix provided by the bottle.

debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ctcesvkr6b4ga9uun8ss0367l0eb6r7fce@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:14:17 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]
>
> > His brother had
> > committed suicide 2 years earlier, and the letter was to tell me about
> > all the people that are touched by such an event, and how awful it was
> > never being able to say good bye.
>
> This touches a bit too close to home.
>
> My mother's mother committed suicide shortly after she was
> born. She (my mother) kept the bullet in a box.
>
> Lovely. Very nice.
>
> I will say it again: People who do not know about this
> *really* do not know about it. You can talk about it to them,
> but they have no idea.
>
> That includes the shrinks.

[Robert McGregor]

"debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bq8dcv$kt$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> as you grow up you learn by example and drinking
> unfortuantely was always set as my example of how to cope.

Bullshit

Proclaiming trust in the Lord Jesus Christ was always set as my example of
how to cope. However, I do recall what the preacher said, "Being born in a
Morris car will never make anyone be a Morris Minor!"

Bob.

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 09:37:27 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>In message <qb2dsvknqjfr92ua03s8g9k99pv55bl7e5@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
><hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>>[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 20:01:14 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
>><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:]

>>> What type of depression have you been diagnosed with?

>It should not take long for a shrink to diagnose if you are suffering
>from depression and if so what kind. However the drink may well be a
>large factor in this - I'm afraid there can be no progress until it
>goes.

Make your mind up!

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:33:28 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>Next week I start seeing a new psychologist. I have planned this for a
>while since I know that there are a number of issues from my past that
>need to be confronted, dealt with and dispatched before I feel I am no
>longer at risk of having lapses. I approached here in August, but she
>refused to see me until I had 3 months sobriety under my belt. This will
>be the case next week.
>
>She said that until this had taken place my mind would be clouded and
>unable to be truthful and positive. I can only say she was right. Had I
>seen someone 3 months ago it would have been worse than a waste of time
>- it would have convinced me that my problems were intractable and would
>probably have encouraged me to carry on drinking
>
>Now I have perspective. I will be able to tackle the underlying issues.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:08:42 +0000, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>In message <bq793b$1vh39n$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert
>McGregor <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>>
>>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:cnREoph+Byx$EwNx@aol.com...
>>>
>>> With the attitude you display - why should anything you say matter to
>>> him? It certainly doesn't to me any more.
>>> --
>>> Jonathan Bratt
>>
>>http://www.petitiononline.com/effexor/
>>"We the individuals listed below have electronically signed this petition
>>for the purpose of making it known that consumers treated with the SSNRI
>>antidepressant Effexor have or are experiencing "often ignored" serious side
>>effects of this medication. And that thousands of patients in the US and
>>worldwide are unable to discontinue Effexor or even reduce dosage due to the
>>rapid onset of severe withdrawal-like symptoms which often initiates before
>>a patient begins dose reduction due to the short half-life of Effexor.
>>Documentation of which the manufacturer, Wyeth-Ayerst has gradually
>>disclosed now some 8 years after this drug was first licensed, being aware
>>of these problems all along but failing to communicate this knowledge to the
>>public and the medical community. "
>>
>Side effects with all drugs. So what?

Not all drugs have side effects which indicate either physical
withdrawal or physiological dependency on the drug. Given that
alcoholics/alcohol abusers/whatever already have a propensity for
being unable to handle mind-altering chemicals, and thus suffering
alcohol side-effects more than most, it would be extremely unwise for
any such individual to simply pooh-pooh any similar warning signs
portrayed by other drugs.

The unfortunate reality of "addiction" is that whilst the drug appears
to be working it's difficult to comprehend what the withdrawal
symptoms might actually be. By the time a withdrawal symptom kicks
in, the addiction is already established. Can't live with it, can't
handle life without it.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:06:40 +0000 (UTC), "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>A 'shrink' no matter how good will probably not be able to understand
>exactly how you feel, but a good shrink will try to help you to see
>alternatives to destructive behaviour. There are alternatives, but they are
>not usually as easy as the quick fix provided by the bottle.

Hence the difference between "psychotherapy" and "recovery". With the
shrinks. it's "we will change your thinking, and eventually your
actions will change", whereas with recovery it's "we will change your
actions, and eventually the thinking will change".

Hence those in shrinks offices will tend to continue abusing booze or
pills, simply because the thinking isn't changing fast or radically
enough to subsequently alter the action. This also explains why so
many psychotherapists, spouses, etc. are baffled as to how some
amateur organisation such as AA can achieve quite quickly what they
apparently could not despite many years of effort.

--
Blue Moon

[MYOB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
news:bq6p4n$1uqc1h$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de:
> snip <
> but I was
> prepared to go to any lengths to recover
> snip <

These are the most important words you will ever say, if you really mean
them. I seem to recall someone saying "It's the lies we tell ourselves that
do the most damage."

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 20:38:49 -0000, "JB"
<JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]

> Dear Harry, for the past few weeks, you've been wallowing in
> self-pity, thinking you can think your way of your predicament and
> finding excuses for why you won't be able to. You are not going to
> beat your illness if you carry on this way. THAT'S A FACT.

No, it is not.

I have been thinking about this. A lot. I am too
introspective, but I do not wallow in self-pity. I am just
trying to get what I need to do figured out.

And do not not come back and tell me that all I need to do is
put the cork it the bottle. I have done that.

Are you talking with me or trying to set me up?

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2vfgsvkblph2ehdeunhsbqhpdqj5lah95j@4ax.com...
<snip>

> And do not not come back and tell me that all I need to do is
> put the cork it the bottle. I have done that.
>
> Are you talking with me or trying to set me up?

Dear Harry,

At this time I'm not going to tell you anything.

What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"

Yours

JB

[JB]

"MYOB" <myob@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9441E62AEB7D8myobhotmailcom@216.168.3.44.. .
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
> news:bq6p4n$1uqc1h$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de:
> > snip <
> > but I was
> > prepared to go to any lengths to recover
> > snip <
>
> These are the most important words you will ever say, if you really
mean
> them. I seem to recall someone saying "It's the lies we tell
ourselves that
> do the most damage."

Those are Harry's words. He spoke them during the summer when he was
sober. They speak volumes to me. They are in my subconscious and in
my heart.

Yours

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <Xns9441E62AEB7D8myobhotmailcom@216.168.3.44>, MYOB
<myob@hotmail.com> writes
>"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
>news:bq6p4n$1uqc1h$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de:
>> snip <
>> but I was
>> prepared to go to any lengths to recover
>> snip <
>
>These are the most important words you will ever say, if you really mean
>them. I seem to recall someone saying "It's the lies we tell ourselves that
>do the most damage."

But this phrase must be used with common sense.

Any lengths? Sacrificing a couple of 13 year old virgins during full
moon? Cutting off one's ears whilst incanting? Where does it stop?
Does the desire and need for recovery mean that judgement and critical
faculties are to be utterly suspended?

Recovery does not mean that one still cannot have personal limits.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[debs]

whatever you say. I have obviously had very different experiences of
psychotherapy from you or anyone else in this group. My experiences have
been very positive. But I did have to do a lot of work on myself as well.
I didn't ever go expecting someone to do all the work for me. It was a
changing of thinking and actions for me.

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b47f9d610a38e10027b8340f75e9576d@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 21:06:40 +0000 (UTC), "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >A 'shrink' no matter how good will probably not be able to understand
> >exactly how you feel, but a good shrink will try to help you to see
> >alternatives to destructive behaviour. There are alternatives, but they
are
> >not usually as easy as the quick fix provided by the bottle.
>
> Hence the difference between "psychotherapy" and "recovery". With the
> shrinks. it's "we will change your thinking, and eventually your
> actions will change", whereas with recovery it's "we will change your
> actions, and eventually the thinking will change".
>
> Hence those in shrinks offices will tend to continue abusing booze or
> pills, simply because the thinking isn't changing fast or radically
> enough to subsequently alter the action. This also explains why so
> many psychotherapists, spouses, etc. are baffled as to how some
> amateur organisation such as AA can achieve quite quickly what they
> apparently could not despite many years of effort.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

[debs]

So children never learn anything by example then?????

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bq8g16$1vpaqk$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bq8dcv$kt$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> > as you grow up you learn by example and drinking
> > unfortuantely was always set as my example of how to cope.
>
> Bullshit
>
> Proclaiming trust in the Lord Jesus Christ was always set as my example of
> how to cope. However, I do recall what the preacher said, "Being born in a
> Morris car will never make anyone be a Morris Minor!"
>
> Bob.
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

"debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bq9rsn$mkt$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
> So children never learn anything by example then?????
>

I learned what I chose to learn, examples or not

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:43:12 -0000, "JB"
<JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]

> What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"

You may feel free to stop asking me questions. I won't be
answering them.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ig0hsv4c7fe3v8908c2buolj9vup6c6p0b@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:43:12 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"
>
> You may feel free to stop asking me questions. I won't be
> answering them.

An interesting response :^). I think that I have asked too many
questions about too many things too close to home that you don't want
to deal with.

Even if we never speak to each other again, FWIW, I shall continue to
hope that you can find a way to beat your alcoholism.

Good luck

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqa4ma$ck$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ig0hsv4c7fe3v8908c2buolj9vup6c6p0b@4ax.com...
> > [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:43:12 -0000, "JB"
> > <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
> >
> > > What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"
> >
> > You may feel free to stop asking me questions. I won't be
> > answering them.
>
> An interesting response :^). I think that I have asked too many
> questions about too many things too close to home that you don't want
> to deal with.
>
> Even if we never speak to each other again, FWIW, I shall continue to
> hope that you can find a way to beat your alcoholism.
>
> Good luck
>
> JB
>

LOL I have been wondering for a while if you question your husband with such
dedicated persistence;-)

Bob

[rosie read and post]

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328



"debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bq9rr5$m90$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> whatever you say. I have obviously had very different experiences
of
> psychotherapy from you or anyone else in this group.


deb,
your experience is shared by many of us in this group!
mooney NOT being one of them!




>
>
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:b47f9d610a38e10027b8340f75e9576d@news.teranew s.com...

> > Hence the difference between "psychotherapy" and "recovery".
With the
> > shrinks. it's "we will change your thinking, and eventually your
> > actions will change", whereas with recovery it's "we will change
your
> > actions, and eventually the thinking will change".



mooney,
that is nonsense!
BUT, if that is the kind of treatment you received, that could
explain a lot about you!

[rosie read and post]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ig0hsv4c7fe3v8908c2buolj9vup6c6p0b@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:43:12 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"
>
> You may feel free to stop asking me questions. I won't be
> answering them.


ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you have figured he/she out!

[Moonraker]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nR1yb.88193$Eq1.49542@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ig0hsv4c7fe3v8908c2buolj9vup6c6p0b@4ax.com...
> > [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:43:12 -0000, "JB"
> > <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
> >
> > > What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"
> >
> > You may feel free to stop asking me questions. I won't be
> > answering them.
>
>
> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you have figured he/she out!

At least Harry is honest enough to tell somebody when he is going to refuse
to answer. When Tokyo Rose gets pinned into a corner, her MO is to
killfile the malcontent(s), ignoring the situation, hoping the lies she
perpetrates on Usenet will go unnoticed.






>
>

[debs]

With psychotherapy you get out what you put in and it should be a two way
process.
Everyone on my support team has always been willing to listen to and learn
from me also.
My pdoc had never before seen anyone with bipolar keep a mood chart and
journal, but as he has now been with me for just over a year he has seen the
advantages I have had in being able to recognise the cycles of my illness.
Oct and Nov are my bad months and the times when I am most likely to
experience mood swings. Hopefully next year I can remember these lessons
and take measures to lessen the likelihood of hospitalisation.

debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7Q1yb.88192$Eq1.8100@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> that would suffice."
> ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
>
>
>
> "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bq9rr5$m90$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > whatever you say. I have obviously had very different experiences
> of
> > psychotherapy from you or anyone else in this group.
>
>
> deb,
> your experience is shared by many of us in this group!
> mooney NOT being one of them!
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:b47f9d610a38e10027b8340f75e9576d@news.teranew s.com...
>
> > > Hence the difference between "psychotherapy" and "recovery".
> With the
> > > shrinks. it's "we will change your thinking, and eventually your
> > > actions will change", whereas with recovery it's "we will change
> your
> > > actions, and eventually the thinking will change".
>
>
>
> mooney,
> that is nonsense!
> BUT, if that is the kind of treatment you received, that could
> explain a lot about you!
>
>

[rosie read and post]

deb,
yours is a fine example of the health professionals that are out
there.....................


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328



"debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqacsg$iqg$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> With psychotherapy you get out what you put in and it should be a
two way
> process.
> Everyone on my support team has always been willing to listen to
and learn
> from me also.
> My pdoc had never before seen anyone with bipolar keep a mood
chart and
> journal, but as he has now been with me for just over a year he
has seen the
> advantages I have had in being able to recognise the cycles of my
illness.
> Oct and Nov are my bad months and the times when I am most likely
to
> experience mood swings. Hopefully next year I can remember these
lessons
> and take measures to lessen the likelihood of hospitalisation.
>
> debs
>
> --
> Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy
on her own.
>
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:7Q1yb.88192$Eq1.8100@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> >
> > --
> > read and post daily, it works!
> > rosie
> >
> > "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> > that would suffice."
> > ...............................................m eckhart,
1260-1328
> >
> >
> >
> > "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:bq9rr5$m90$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > > whatever you say. I have obviously had very different
experiences
> > of
> > > psychotherapy from you or anyone else in this group.
> >
> >
> > deb,
> > your experience is shared by many of us in this group!
> > mooney NOT being one of them!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:b47f9d610a38e10027b8340f75e9576d@news.teranew s.com...
> >
> > > > Hence the difference between "psychotherapy" and "recovery".
> > With the
> > > > shrinks. it's "we will change your thinking, and eventually
your
> > > > actions will change", whereas with recovery it's "we will
change
> > your
> > > > actions, and eventually the thinking will change".
> >
> >
> >
> > mooney,
> > that is nonsense!
> > BUT, if that is the kind of treatment you received, that could
> > explain a lot about you!
> >
> >
>
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:10:09 +0000 (UTC), "debs"
<debs172@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> With psychotherapy you get out what you put in and it should be a two way
> process.
> Everyone on my support team has always been willing to listen to and learn
> from me also.
> My pdoc had never before seen anyone with bipolar keep a mood chart and
> journal, but as he has now been with me for just over a year he has seen the
> advantages I have had in being able to recognise the cycles of my illness.
> Oct and Nov are my bad months and the times when I am most likely to
> experience mood swings. Hopefully next year I can remember these lessons
> and take measures to lessen the likelihood of hospitalisation.

I need to get my DSM book off the shelf and read more about
bipolar. Doing that is kind of like raking my lawn. I want
to do it, but I don't want to do it. It scares me.

The mood swings are...

Let's just say that they can be somewhat extreme. Somewhat.
As in an explosion.

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:39:54 -0000, "JB"
<JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]

> An interesting response :^). I think that I have asked too many
> questions about too many things too close to home that you don't want
> to deal with.

Not really. I just think you are fucking around with me, and
I've had enough of it.

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nR1yb.88193$Eq1.49542@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ig0hsv4c7fe3v8908c2buolj9vup6c6p0b@4ax.com...
> > [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:43:12 -0000, "JB"
> > <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
> >
> > > What did you mean by are you "trying to set me up ?"
> >
> > You may feel free to stop asking me questions. I won't be
> > answering them.
>
>
> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you have figured he/she out!

Before I went to an AA meeting about service this afternoon, I
wondered whether you would view Harry's comments as an opportunity to
voice your opinion of me. LOL at how predictable your behaviour is.

JB

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4aihsv8t4l869lgcbiofulamfhku4tu6d0@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:39:54 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > An interesting response :^). I think that I have asked too many
> > questions about too many things too close to home that you don't
want
> > to deal with.
>
> Not really. I just think you are fucking around with me, and
> I've had enough of it.

FWIW, I was not "fucking around with you". Maybe, one day, you'll
realise that.

Good luck

JB

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4aihsv8t4l869lgcbiofulamfhku4tu6d0@4ax.com...
>
> Not really. I just think you are fucking around with me, and
> I've had enough of it.

Actually, my friend, that's just what I'd been thinking about YOU and your
postings to this group.

[JB]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Cm4yb.20982$W7.6246@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:4aihsv8t4l869lgcbiofulamfhku4tu6d0@4ax.com...
> >
> > Not really. I just think you are fucking around with me, and
> > I've had enough of it.
>
> Actually, my friend, that's just what I'd been thinking about YOU
and your
> postings to this group.

Hi Moonraker,

Do you remember this:

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:V2jQa.10852$pO5.657@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:besc1n$s45$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

JB: Moonraker has called me a troll. For the record, I am *not*, I
repeat *not* a troll. I came here in search of help and support to
stay off drink As a result of
doing so, I've been sober for several weeks. Thank you for enabling
me to get as far as I have.

M: YOU referred to our conversations as a game, with a winner and a
loser. Just how seriously do you want to be taken, anyway? What is a
troll, except one who is playing games? Are you for real, or are
you not? I'm about to start burning my end of the bridge...... Do
you want to "stay off drink".....or do you want to QUIT? Do you want
to recover, or do you want to reinvent the wheel?

You asked for information. You didn't like what you were told, how it
was told to you, or the suggested schedule for recovery. You tried
guilt-tripping, whining, being insulted, and alleging that you were
being preached to and bullied. If you don't want to take seriously
the suggestions given to you by hose who "have" recovered and "think"
your way through all this...."good luck" "Honey, does this dress make
my ass look fat?"

JB: I know that I am not strong enough on my own to beat my
alcoholism

M: Step One. Congratulations.

JB: therefore, I've decided that for my own sake, I'm going to stick
with this group

M: Step Two. Congratulations, again.

JB: and take from it all the sensible advice that I can find.

M: Here's where the rubber meets the road. Try turning your
"thinker" off for a while, and just go with the flow.

> JB".

Now that I have almost six months of sobriety under my belt, regularly
attend AA meetings, do service, have a Sponsor, am working the Steps,
and see myself slowly learning how to deal with life on it's terms, I
feel it is the right time to again publicly express my gratitude to
you for dealing with me in a no-nonsense way. It was what I needed
:^))

Best regards

JB

[Moonraker]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bqam37$s2m$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Cm4yb.20982$W7.6246@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:4aihsv8t4l869lgcbiofulamfhku4tu6d0@4ax.com...
> > >
> > > Not really. I just think you are fucking around with me, and
> > > I've had enough of it.
> >
> > Actually, my friend, that's just what I'd been thinking about YOU
> and your
> > postings to this group.
>
> Hi Moonraker,
>
> Do you remember this:
>
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:V2jQa.10852$pO5.657@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:besc1n$s45$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> JB: Moonraker has called me a troll. For the record, I am *not*, I
> repeat *not* a troll. I came here in search of help and support to
> stay off drink As a result of
> doing so, I've been sober for several weeks. Thank you for enabling
> me to get as far as I have.
>
> M: YOU referred to our conversations as a game, with a winner and a
> loser. Just how seriously do you want to be taken, anyway? What is a
> troll, except one who is playing games? Are you for real, or are
> you not? I'm about to start burning my end of the bridge...... Do
> you want to "stay off drink".....or do you want to QUIT? Do you want
> to recover, or do you want to reinvent the wheel?
>
> You asked for information. You didn't like what you were told, how it
> was told to you, or the suggested schedule for recovery. You tried
> guilt-tripping, whining, being insulted, and alleging that you were
> being preached to and bullied. If you don't want to take seriously
> the suggestions given to you by hose who "have" recovered and "think"
> your way through all this...."good luck" "Honey, does this dress make
> my ass look fat?"
>
> JB: I know that I am not strong enough on my own to beat my
> alcoholism
>
> M: Step One. Congratulations.
>
> JB: therefore, I've decided that for my own sake, I'm going to stick
> with this group
>
> M: Step Two. Congratulations, again.
>
> JB: and take from it all the sensible advice that I can find.
>
> M: Here's where the rubber meets the road. Try turning your
> "thinker" off for a while, and just go with the flow.
>
> > JB".
>
> Now that I have almost six months of sobriety under my belt, regularly
> attend AA meetings, do service, have a Sponsor, am working the Steps,
> and see myself slowly learning how to deal with life on it's terms, I
> feel it is the right time to again publicly express my gratitude to
> you for dealing with me in a no-nonsense way. It was what I needed
> :^))
>
> Best regards
>
> JB
>
Thanks for an early Christmas present. I'm proud for you.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4aihsv8t4l869lgcbiofulamfhku4tu6d0@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 12:39:54 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > An interesting response :^). I think that I have asked too many
> > questions about too many things too close to home that you don't
want
> > to deal with.
>
> Not really. I just think you are fucking around with me, and
> I've had enough of it.

Dear Harry,

I think I'm right in saying that I don't think I've ever demanded
public answers to any of my questions. FWIW, their purpose was to
try to get you to think about different aspects of your life and to
decide for yourself which, if any, have been adversely affected by
your alcoholism. I did what I did because I was trying to be helpful
to you.

FWIW, I do not want your alcoholism to claim your life and I will
continue to hope that you will be able to beat it.

Yours

JB

[debs]

yeah I know but I have met some bad ones as well. Or should I say bad for
me. I had one pdoc who I just used to be able to rattle. I found his weak
spot and used it against him.......when I was very manic I will add. When I
am in that state my perceptions are hightened and I can use anything that is
said to me and twist it completely round. Good fun at the time but I am not
like that when my mood is stable. I actually don't enjoy confrontation and
will usually back down and agree to disagree.

I actually came into contact a few years ago with a person centred
counsellor who could actually enter my world when I was psychotic but at the
same time keep one foot in the real world. What a skill!!!! My key worker
has that skill and is very good at knowing just what questions to
ask........this was the reason I went into hospital this time. My mood was
chaotic and suicidal thoughts were just under the surface. She gently
bought this out, helped me name the thoughts and made me realise that for my
safety hospital would be a good place for a few days.

The outcome was five days of voluntary admission, plenty of rest and time to
name the things that were causing stress and that I could for the time being
put aside. I wish it could be like that for everyone.

debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:0j3yb.72489$Vu6.55005@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> deb,
> yours is a fine example of the health professionals that are out
> there.....................
>
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> that would suffice."
> ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
>
>
>
> "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bqacsg$iqg$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > With psychotherapy you get out what you put in and it should be a
> two way
> > process.
> > Everyone on my support team has always been willing to listen to
> and learn
> > from me also.
> > My pdoc had never before seen anyone with bipolar keep a mood
> chart and
> > journal, but as he has now been with me for just over a year he
> has seen the
> > advantages I have had in being able to recognise the cycles of my
> illness.
> > Oct and Nov are my bad months and the times when I am most likely
> to
> > experience mood swings. Hopefully next year I can remember these
> lessons
> > and take measures to lessen the likelihood of hospitalisation.
> >
> > debs
> >
> > --
> > Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy
> on her own.
> >
> >
> > "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:7Q1yb.88192$Eq1.8100@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > read and post daily, it works!
> > > rosie
> > >
> > > "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> > > that would suffice."
> > > ...............................................m eckhart,
> 1260-1328
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bq9rr5$m90$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > > > whatever you say. I have obviously had very different
> experiences
> > > of
> > > > psychotherapy from you or anyone else in this group.
> > >
> > >
> > > deb,
> > > your experience is shared by many of us in this group!
> > > mooney NOT being one of them!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:b47f9d610a38e10027b8340f75e9576d@news.teranew s.com...
> > >
> > > > > Hence the difference between "psychotherapy" and "recovery".
> > > With the
> > > > > shrinks. it's "we will change your thinking, and eventually
> your
> > > > > actions will change", whereas with recovery it's "we will
> change
> > > your
> > > > > actions, and eventually the thinking will change".
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > mooney,
> > > that is nonsense!
> > > BUT, if that is the kind of treatment you received, that could
> > > explain a lot about you!
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[debs]

Yes read about it.....but the diagnosis needs to come from a pdoc.
Don't forget that alcohol can cause mood swings also. You would need to
have some time sober before the extent of the mood swings could be properly
assessed.
My bipolar was diagnosed at a time when I was sober for a length of time.
No alcohol but still having extreams of mood.
If the diagnosis is made for bipolar please don't try to use it as an excuse
to continue drinking. I did that for a long time. The meds have no chance
of working unless you are sober and don't forget that with bipolar some
pretty potent meds are used and none of them say take with alcohol.
I also have other family members with bipolar so that was a factor that was
taken into consideration.

debs

ps anyone want to buy 30 books on javascript.........the result of my latest
mania. ooppps.

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ujhhsvkdc8vlan3r7et14fucgjdttpf80h@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 15:10:09 +0000 (UTC), "debs"
> <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
> > With psychotherapy you get out what you put in and it should be a two
way
> > process.
> > Everyone on my support team has always been willing to listen to and
learn
> > from me also.
> > My pdoc had never before seen anyone with bipolar keep a mood chart and
> > journal, but as he has now been with me for just over a year he has seen
the
> > advantages I have had in being able to recognise the cycles of my
illness.
> > Oct and Nov are my bad months and the times when I am most likely to
> > experience mood swings. Hopefully next year I can remember these
lessons
> > and take measures to lessen the likelihood of hospitalisation.
>
> I need to get my DSM book off the shelf and read more about
> bipolar. Doing that is kind of like raking my lawn. I want
> to do it, but I don't want to do it. It scares me.
>
> The mood swings are...
>
> Let's just say that they can be somewhat extreme. Somewhat.
> As in an explosion.

[rosie read and post]

>
> debs
>
> ps anyone want to buy 30 books on javascript.........the result of
my latest
> mania. ooppps.
>


:)

[debs]

I know I can see the funny side of it now as well.

Not as bad as the 175 pizzas I once made in an attempt to put pizzahut out
of business.
If I didn't laugh at myself I would surely cry.

debs

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Ik9yb.73117$Vu6.33209@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >
> > debs
> >
> > ps anyone want to buy 30 books on javascript.........the result of
> my latest
> > mania. ooppps.
> >
>
>
> :)
>
>

[rosie read and post]

i had a very dear friend who struggled with her recovery, vicki was
also an alcoholic,drug addict,bi-polar, bulimic,and a pathological
liar.
at her worst she bought THREE brand new Cadillac's.
what a wonderful, fun, loving, and dear person she was.

read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328



"debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bqcm66$p31$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> I know I can see the funny side of it now as well.
>
> Not as bad as the 175 pizzas I once made in an attempt to put
pizzahut out
> of business.
> If I didn't laugh at myself I would surely cry.
>
> debs
>
> --
> Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy
on her own.
>
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Ik9yb.73117$Vu6.33209@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > >
> > > debs
> > >
> > > ps anyone want to buy 30 books on javascript.........the
result of
> > my latest
> > > mania. ooppps.
> > >
> >
> >
> > :)
> >
> >
>
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:57:28 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]

> at her worst she bought THREE brand new Cadillac's.

That got a laugh. Not that it's funny, but it is.

[debs]

haven't been tempted by cars yet. I have a friend who is though and they
are always top of the range cars and he is unemployed and on long term
disability.

--
Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy on her own.


"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cHmyb.73197$Vu6.35310@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> i had a very dear friend who struggled with her recovery, vicki was
> also an alcoholic,drug addict,bi-polar, bulimic,and a pathological
> liar.
> at her worst she bought THREE brand new Cadillac's.
> what a wonderful, fun, loving, and dear person she was.
>
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> that would suffice."
> ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
>
>
>
> "debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bqcm66$p31$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> > I know I can see the funny side of it now as well.
> >
> > Not as bad as the 175 pizzas I once made in an attempt to put
> pizzahut out
> > of business.
> > If I didn't laugh at myself I would surely cry.
> >
> > debs
> >
> > --
> > Her personality's split so many ways, she goes for group therapy
> on her own.
> >
> >
> > "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:Ik9yb.73117$Vu6.33209@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > debs
> > > >
> > > > ps anyone want to buy 30 books on javascript.........the
> result of
> > > my latest
> > > > mania. ooppps.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > :)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>