Wondering

[Donald]

I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so angry so
easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a couple of
girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little things.
If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?

Thanks,

Donald

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 17:26:22 -0600, "Donald"
<bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:

>I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so angry so
>easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a couple of
>girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little things.
>If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Donald

Hi Donald,

If you look at the AA program, it's all in the second part of the
first Step: "that our lives had become unmanageable". An alcoholic's
life is emotionally unmanageable WITHOUT booze, so has to drink in
order to feel better.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 01:08:52 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com>
wrote:]

> >I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so angry so
> >easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a couple of
> >girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little things.
> >If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?

> If you look at the AA program, it's all in the second part of the
> first Step: "that our lives had become unmanageable". An alcoholic's
> life is emotionally unmanageable WITHOUT booze, so has to drink in
> order to feel better.

That's pretty much the way it is for me.

If I am at or above .20, I am okay. But if I get down below that, I
go insane. This is the reason why I am considering the med's.

People who do not know about insanity truly do not know about it.
They seem to think everything will be just fine. Just quit
drinking, get a little more exercise, take some B1, yadda yadda.

They don't know what happens.

[Jeff Cook]

Ya take the booze out of a drunken horse thief,----------and you're still
left with a horse thief. Which DID come first, da chicken or da egg?
Learning to be "sober" is significantly different from learning not to
drink, and might even be equated to "growing up".
Jeff
"Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so angry
so
> easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a couple of
> girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little things.
> If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Donald
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

"Jeff Cook" <jeffloucook@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:Xmfxb.315141$HS4.2793775@attbi_s01...
> Ya take the booze out of a drunken horse thief,----------and you're still
> left with a horse thief. Which DID come first, da chicken or da egg?
> Learning to be "sober" is significantly different from learning not to
> drink, and might even be equated to "growing up".
> Jeff

Was that just a touch of knee jerked rhetoric, or do you really practice
being "sober" while practicing alcoholism?

Bob;-)


> "Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> > I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so angry
> so
> > easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a couple
of
> > girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little
things.
> > If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Donald
> >
> >
>
>

[rosie read and post]

donald,
"putting the plug in the jug" is only the first step to finding
"sobriety".......................
learning to live WITHOUT the aid of alcohol takes time, and for me,
the help of the 12 steps of AA, a sponsor, and lots and lots of AA
meetings.

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328



"Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so
angry so
> easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a
couple of
> girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little
things.
> If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Donald
>
>

[Robert McGregor]

Neither know, nor care, if Donald is a troll, or not. His post has sure
jagged the suckers in:)

What practicing alcoholic bothers to put the plug in the jug?

unjugged Bob


"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ILnxb.83545$Eq1.76182@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> donald,
> "putting the plug in the jug" is only the first step to finding
> "sobriety".......................
> learning to live WITHOUT the aid of alcohol takes time, and for me,
> the help of the 12 steps of AA, a sponsor, and lots and lots of AA
> meetings.
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> that would suffice."
> ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
>
>
>
> "Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> > I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so
> angry so
> > easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a
> couple of
> > girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little
> things.
> > If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Donald
> >
> >
>
>

[Donald]

No I'm not a troll (whatever that is for this group). I'm just someone that
dad some Alcoholic girlfriends and is simply looking for some insight into
their actions (if any can be found). Since I have been lucky not to have the
disease, I am simply looking to understand why they acted the way they did
and why I was treated so poorly. Just as I am nearsighted and most people do
not understand what it is like to wear glasses all of your life, I am
seeking to understand why some people have this problem and what is going on
that they treat others so badly under it's influence.

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bq51rt$1tvh9a$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Neither know, nor care, if Donald is a troll, or not. His post has sure
> jagged the suckers in:)
>
> What practicing alcoholic bothers to put the plug in the jug?
>
> unjugged Bob
>
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ILnxb.83545$Eq1.76182@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > donald,
> > "putting the plug in the jug" is only the first step to finding
> > "sobriety".......................
> > learning to live WITHOUT the aid of alcohol takes time, and for me,
> > the help of the 12 steps of AA, a sponsor, and lots and lots of AA
> > meetings.
> >
> > --
> > read and post daily, it works!
> > rosie
> >
> > "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> > that would suffice."
> > ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
> >
> >
> >
> > "Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> > news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> > > I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so
> > angry so
> > > easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a
> > couple of
> > > girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little
> > things.
> > > If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Donald
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:44:14 -0600, "Donald"
<bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]

> Since I have been lucky not to have the
> disease, I am simply looking to understand why they acted the way they did

We don't know. Most of us don't mean to.

> and why I was treated so poorly.

This is what happens. Again, we don't mean to do it.

I don't want to pontificate, but there can be times in your
life when you mess up. You don't want to, but you do.

Most of us have been treated badly. You don't get a chip for
that one.

[Robert McGregor]

Did you try http://www.ola-is.org/ ? There, you may learn something about
yourself, regarding your choice of women.

Bob


"Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1070044968.586523@news1.bigplanet.com...
> No I'm not a troll (whatever that is for this group). I'm just someone
that
> dad some Alcoholic girlfriends and is simply looking for some insight into
> their actions (if any can be found). Since I have been lucky not to have
the
> disease, I am simply looking to understand why they acted the way they did
> and why I was treated so poorly. Just as I am nearsighted and most people
do
> not understand what it is like to wear glasses all of your life, I am
> seeking to understand why some people have this problem and what is going
on
> that they treat others so badly under it's influence.
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bq51rt$1tvh9a$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > Neither know, nor care, if Donald is a troll, or not. His post has sure
> > jagged the suckers in:)
> >
> > What practicing alcoholic bothers to put the plug in the jug?
> >
> > unjugged Bob
> >
> >
> > "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:ILnxb.83545$Eq1.76182@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > donald,
> > > "putting the plug in the jug" is only the first step to finding
> > > "sobriety".......................
> > > learning to live WITHOUT the aid of alcohol takes time, and for me,
> > > the help of the 12 steps of AA, a sponsor, and lots and lots of AA
> > > meetings.
> > >
> > > --
> > > read and post daily, it works!
> > > rosie
> > >
> > > "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> > > that would suffice."
> > > ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> > > news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> > > > I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so
> > > angry so
> > > > easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a
> > > couple of
> > > > girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little
> > > things.
> > > > If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Donald
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Donald]

Thank you. I will check out the site.
"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bq8cso$208j6a$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> Did you try http://www.ola-is.org/ ? There, you may learn something about
> yourself, regarding your choice of women.
>
> Bob
>
>
> "Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> news:1070044968.586523@news1.bigplanet.com...
> > No I'm not a troll (whatever that is for this group). I'm just someone
> that
> > dad some Alcoholic girlfriends and is simply looking for some insight
into
> > their actions (if any can be found). Since I have been lucky not to have
> the
> > disease, I am simply looking to understand why they acted the way they
did
> > and why I was treated so poorly. Just as I am nearsighted and most
people
> do
> > not understand what it is like to wear glasses all of your life, I am
> > seeking to understand why some people have this problem and what is
going
> on
> > that they treat others so badly under it's influence.
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:bq51rt$1tvh9a$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > Neither know, nor care, if Donald is a troll, or not. His post has
sure
> > > jagged the suckers in:)
> > >
> > > What practicing alcoholic bothers to put the plug in the jug?
> > >
> > > unjugged Bob
> > >
> > >
> > > "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:ILnxb.83545$Eq1.76182@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > donald,
> > > > "putting the plug in the jug" is only the first step to finding
> > > > "sobriety".......................
> > > > learning to live WITHOUT the aid of alcohol takes time, and for me,
> > > > the help of the 12 steps of AA, a sponsor, and lots and lots of AA
> > > > meetings.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > read and post daily, it works!
> > > > rosie
> > > >
> > > > "if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
> > > > that would suffice."
> > > > ...............................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:1069889096.122381@news3.bigplanet.com...
> > > > > I was wondering why a practicing alcoholic is "sober", they get so
> > > > angry so
> > > > > easily? I have been blessed to not have the disease, but I had a
> > > > couple of
> > > > > girlfriends that did and they were always gettting angry at little
> > > > things.
> > > > > If someone knows, could you please enlighten me?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Donald
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Donald]

Wasn't looking for a chip. But no one has yet to explain why do it. If you
know it is not right to do to another person, but you treat them badly
anyway.

I guess I am looking for the answer to something that isn't necessarily
knowable. But I figured it was worth a try.

Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when you
were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?


"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:9qcfsvobu7h3eojpgf6svcnss1f80v7i77@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:44:14 -0600, "Donald"
> <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]
>
> > Since I have been lucky not to have the
> > disease, I am simply looking to understand why they acted the way they
did
>
> We don't know. Most of us don't mean to.
>
> > and why I was treated so poorly.
>
> This is what happens. Again, we don't mean to do it.
>
> I don't want to pontificate, but there can be times in your
> life when you mess up. You don't want to, but you do.
>
> Most of us have been treated badly. You don't get a chip for
> that one.

[Kai]

Donald wrote:

> Wasn't looking for a chip. But no one has yet to explain why do it. If you
> know it is not right to do to another person, but you treat them badly
> anyway.
>
> I guess I am looking for the answer to something that isn't necessarily
> knowable. But I figured it was worth a try.
>
> Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when you
> were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?

Yes, there is a clear common denominator. Every alcoholic has drunk
alcohol.

As for other necessary similarities in the backgrounds, there are
none. Alcoholism is considered a primary disease, meaning that it is
not a symptom of some other disease.

--
Kai

"Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines."
- General "Buck" Turgidson -

[Robert McGregor]

"Donald" <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote in message
news:1070389484.994103@news3.bigplanet.com...
> Wasn't looking for a chip. But no one has yet to explain why do it. If you
> know it is not right to do to another person, but you treat them badly
> anyway.
>
> I guess I am looking for the answer to something that isn't necessarily
> knowable. But I figured it was worth a try.
>
> Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when you
> were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?
>
>

Were one to consider self-centred instant gratification, obsessed to
absurdity to be a disease; alcoholism could well be a disease.

In 1960 at a convention of the National Clergy Conference on Alcoholism,
Bill Wilson, founder of Alcoholics anonymous said: "We have never called
alcoholism a disease because, technically speaking, it is not a disease
entity ... " Not-God A History of Alcoholics Anonymous, page22

However, in the AA text book, "Alcoholics Anonymous" alcoholism is referred
to as a symptom of a "spiritual" disease, :-
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_64.htm

According to current AA documentation, reprinted in consecutive editions of
the same book, the one thing common to alcoholics is the phenomena of
craving, arising *after* an alcoholic has ingested alcoholic:-
http://silkworth.net/bb/doctorsopinion.html
"We believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on
these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy; that the
phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the
average temperate drinker. "

That opinion obviously does not imply unanimous endorsement of contemporary
AA proselytisers, many of whom do subscribe to the "disease" theory,
arguably in order to recruit the more socially acceptable possibly
potential, rather than "real" alcoholics. :-
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm


Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:26:13 -0600, "Donald"
<bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]

> Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when you
> were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?

My psychiatrist keeps looking for some "trigger" in my background.
I can't think of one. There is a history of alcoholism and
depression in my family, so I suppose it could be the "in the genes"
thing.

My childhood wasn't perfect, but there was no particular event there
that I can point at.

I have had my share of troubles over the years, but I don't think
any more than most people. Generally, I think I have been quite
fortunate.

My shrink is now down to guessing that maybe something happened to
me when I was too young to form a memory of it. Below 4 1/2 years
or so.

If she wants to think that, I don't care. But my opinion is that
this is nonsense. I am more inclined to think that it is either
something "in the genes" or that it is a behavior I learned from my
parents.

Since there are other members of my family who have experienced
mental problems, I tend to believe the in-the-genes theory. We've
got one that isn't right. Maybe two. Perhaps more.

But it doesn't really matter, does it? It makes for a convenient
excuse, but even if it's true it is nothing I can change. The
bottom line is that I have a serious drinking problem along with
some other psych issues which I need to deal with. Even if there
were some trigger, it would not be something I could change. It
would just make her think she'd figured me out. She won't.

I have been tempted to make up some story, just to satisfy her.

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:26:13 -0600, "Donald"
<bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]

> Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when you
> were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?

Follow up:

Shrink #1 told me yesterday that I am "interesting".

I nearly laughed out loud. In retrospect, I almost wish I had.

The problem there is that if I had not restrained myself, I would
have then flown into a rage and wrung her neck. Interesting? Why
do people go see her? Like she mostly sees "normal" people?

I did ask her about her Land Rover. It's very nice. It is a
Discovery model that she got in Richmond. I had already looked it
up on the internet. $35,000. She says it helps with her knee
problems to sit up high.

I am trying to figure her out as hard as she is trying to figure me
out. Maybe harder. But I think she is okay.

[rosie read and post]

> There is a history of alcoholism and
> depression in my family, so I suppose it could be the "in the
genes"
> thing.



there are plenty of studies to show that those "genes" you refer to
ARE a catalyst in whether or not you become an alcoholic, and or
suffer from depression.
that was good enough for me, and getting myself into recovery and
working on my sobriety was the answer!
how are you doing with that?

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:22:28 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]

> there are plenty of studies to show that those "genes" you refer to
> ARE a catalyst in whether or not you become an alcoholic, and or
> suffer from depression.
> that was good enough for me, and getting myself into recovery and
> working on my sobriety was the answer!
>
> how are you doing with that?

I'd give myself a C. Maybe a C+. A few days on, a few days off.
Not good by any means, but better than all days on.

I'm back on this morning. First thing I did after I got up was to
get a drink.

I really don't think quitting drinking is something that can be done
half-way by someone who has a problem with it.

Ironically, if I am obessive/compulsive -- which I think is right --
that could ultimately end up helping me with my drinking. It won't
make it any easier to cure, but it will make me either cure myself
or kill myself. No middle ground.

Shrink #1 and I disagree about this. I am more inclined to agree
with the majority of people who post to this newsgroup. AA or med's
or whatever. But the drinking has to stop completely. It does not
stop a little bit. It does not get "cut back".

[rosie read and post]

harry,
you are correct..................stopping drinking TOTALLY is what
you will have to do.
until you do that, treatment of any mental illness will be for
naught!

if you don't trust your doctor, get another one!

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"if the only prayer you say in your whole life is 'thank you,'
that would suffice."
................................................m eckhart, 1260-1328
http://www.moveon.org/






"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3fursv8r985ca501p8p2k3ao7b4fm9tfts@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:22:28 GMT, "rosie read and post"
> <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]
>
> > there are plenty of studies to show that those "genes" you refer
to
> > ARE a catalyst in whether or not you become an alcoholic, and or
> > suffer from depression.
> > that was good enough for me, and getting myself into recovery
and
> > working on my sobriety was the answer!
> >
> > how are you doing with that?
>
> I'd give myself a C. Maybe a C+. A few days on, a few days off.
> Not good by any means, but better than all days on.
>
> I'm back on this morning. First thing I did after I got up was to
> get a drink.
>
> I really don't think quitting drinking is something that can be
done
> half-way by someone who has a problem with it.
>
> Ironically, if I am obessive/compulsive -- which I think is
right --
> that could ultimately end up helping me with my drinking. It
won't
> make it any easier to cure, but it will make me either cure myself
> or kill myself. No middle ground.
>
> Shrink #1 and I disagree about this. I am more inclined to agree
> with the majority of people who post to this newsgroup. AA or
med's
> or whatever. But the drinking has to stop completely. It does
not
> stop a little bit. It does not get "cut back".

[debs]

there is a history of alcohol abuse and mental illness in my family but at
the end of the day it is my choice whether or not I drink. I don't have too
many choices with the mental health part although I do choose to acknowledge
it and take my medication (at the moment)
I and my doctors are pretty sure that my mom had bipolar too but she choose
to ignore it, lived with the consequences and basically drank herself to
death. Tragic really when there are so many treatments around these days.
I was also sexually abused when I was younger which obviously had a profound
effect on me. I have had some counselling for this and have been offered
more but at the moment my mood is a bit unstable so I have put it away in a
box in my mind for now.
Clearing alcohol away has enabled me to see things clearly and I know when
and if I can deal with past matters.

I would also think that alcoholism is in the genes. I know someone who's
family have been plauged with alcohol abuse. Because of this he has never
taken a drink in his life. I guess he is always scared that one drink will
be too many.

debs

--
You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the
rabbit hole goes

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:r6prsv03gp2lufdcg097qs7kej69fjh94b@4ax.com...
> [On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:26:13 -0600, "Donald"
> <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]
>
> > Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when
you
> > were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?
>
> My psychiatrist keeps looking for some "trigger" in my background.
> I can't think of one. There is a history of alcoholism and
> depression in my family, so I suppose it could be the "in the genes"
> thing.
>
> My childhood wasn't perfect, but there was no particular event there
> that I can point at.
>
> I have had my share of troubles over the years, but I don't think
> any more than most people. Generally, I think I have been quite
> fortunate.
>
> My shrink is now down to guessing that maybe something happened to
> me when I was too young to form a memory of it. Below 4 1/2 years
> or so.
>
> If she wants to think that, I don't care. But my opinion is that
> this is nonsense. I am more inclined to think that it is either
> something "in the genes" or that it is a behavior I learned from my
> parents.
>
> Since there are other members of my family who have experienced
> mental problems, I tend to believe the in-the-genes theory. We've
> got one that isn't right. Maybe two. Perhaps more.
>
> But it doesn't really matter, does it? It makes for a convenient
> excuse, but even if it's true it is nothing I can change. The
> bottom line is that I have a serious drinking problem along with
> some other psych issues which I need to deal with. Even if there
> were some trigger, it would not be something I could change. It
> would just make her think she'd figured me out. She won't.
>
> I have been tempted to make up some story, just to satisfy her.
>

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:44:14 -0600, "Donald"
<bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]

> No I'm not a troll (whatever that is for this group). I'm just someone that
> dad some Alcoholic girlfriends and is simply looking for some insight into
> their actions (if any can be found)

Say a little more about yourself. Many of us have.

[J. Rockford]

In article <3fursv8r985ca501p8p2k3ao7b4fm9tfts@4ax.com>, The Other
Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

> [On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 14:22:28 GMT, "rosie read and post"
> <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]
>
> > there are plenty of studies to show that those "genes" you refer to
> > ARE a catalyst in whether or not you become an alcoholic, and or
> > suffer from depression.
> > that was good enough for me, and getting myself into recovery and
> > working on my sobriety was the answer!
> >
> > how are you doing with that?
>
> I'd give myself a C. Maybe a C+. A few days on, a few days off.
> Not good by any means, but better than all days on.
>
> I'm back on this morning. First thing I did after I got up was to
> get a drink.
>
> I really don't think quitting drinking is something that can be done
> half-way by someone who has a problem with it.
>
> Ironically, if I am obessive/compulsive -- which I think is right --
> that could ultimately end up helping me with my drinking. It won't
> make it any easier to cure, but it will make me either cure myself
> or kill myself. No middle ground.
>
> Shrink #1 and I disagree about this. I am more inclined to agree
> with the majority of people who post to this newsgroup. AA or med's
> or whatever. But the drinking has to stop completely. It does not
> stop a little bit. It does not get "cut back".

Harry, You should get a shrink that will tell you you should
continue drinking and it's eveyone else who has the problem. This would
sure make ya feel a lot better after blowing $106 an hour. Then you
could give yourself an A+. Bottoms up, Mike

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 3 Dec 2003 16:10:00 +0000 (UTC), "debs"
<debs172@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> there is a history of alcohol abuse and mental illness in my family but at
> the end of the day it is my choice whether or not I drink. I don't have too
> many choices with the mental health part although I do choose to acknowledge
> it and take my medication (at the moment)

<snip>

I am mostly just acknowledging your message.

This stuff does get complicated. I know I do that. I know my pdoc
does it. You kind of have to. I do.

But it is a dead-ender. I can chase my tail on that one until the
cows come home. (I love mixing metaphors.)

It is, like you say, "at the end of the day it is my choice whether
or not I drink."

Make the problem simple. That is the only way to deal with it.

If there is other stuff going on, then you can go on to deal with
that.

That is what I have been telling myself.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:19:54 GMT, "J. Rockford"
<mikedawn@flash.net> wrote:]

> Harry, You should get a shrink that will tell you you should
> continue drinking and it's eveyone else who has the problem. This would
> sure make ya feel a lot better after blowing $106 an hour. Then you
> could give yourself an A+. Bottoms up, Mike

I didn't really need that.

I am seeing Shrink #1 who has an office down the street. I have an
appointment to see Shrink #2 at UVa. I have been to a detox program
and attended AA meetings.

I am not successful, but I am trying. If you want to take shots at
that, then go ahead.

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1o2ssv4f24o6ob258g9balbt409mbkjfml@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:44:14 -0600, "Donald"
> <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]
>
> > No I'm not a troll (whatever that is for this group). I'm just someone
that
> > dad some Alcoholic girlfriends and is simply looking for some insight
into
> > their actions (if any can be found)
>
> Say a little more about yourself. Many of us have.

What a way to discover what powerless *really* means! You won't even need to
remember who Donald was/is.

With all this procrastination, you may well have already lost your choice
anyway. I know a few that "lost it," and became the living dead. My
drinking/business colleague was one of them, 'though he may be dead dead by
now.

Jeez, anything to procrastinate, till the "fuck it, why bother counting the
drinks" day comes, (can you still remember that day from last time ) and you
could easily lose your last chance to stay out of the Wernicke-Korsakoff
ward. That's where they print your name, and the day, up on the blackboard
above your bed, so you know who you are, and what day it is.

When I arrived at AA that night, and started taking those 12 steps, I had,
for some time, *COMPLETELY* forgotten that not drinking, one day at a time,
was even an option.

And all this time you sit at your puter whinging about needing help with
your underlying problems. Those 12 steps can, and are, being demonstrated to
resolve problems such as yours, by those actively utilising obsession
constructively, for a change! I know, cos that's exactly what I did.

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:34:18 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> With all this procrastination, you may well have already lost your choice
> anyway. I know a few that "lost it," and became the living dead. My
> drinking/business colleague was one of them, 'though he may be dead dead by
> now.

<snip>

There is some procrastination in there, but I think I'm doing okay.
About average.

You don't just wake up on the lawn one morning and say, "Gee, I
think I'll quit dinking".

It has been very difficult. Much more than I expected.

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:lt9ssvou8ladeh8c4s6v3fnjrqrbdl6stf@4ax.com...
> <snip>
>
> There is some procrastination in there, but I think I'm doing okay.

That's ok. I forgot your claim that you aren't powerless. You don't have to
believe me, and I certainly don't believe you.

> About average.
>

Above average, and you have not even stopped?

My estimate is that only about 2% of real alcoholics ever stop decisively
(stay stopped.) You haven't even stopped drinking.


Bob

[Bob Smith]

The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:r6prsv03gp2lufdcg097qs7kej69fjh94b@4ax.com:

> [On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:26:13 -0600, "Donald"
> <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]
>
>> Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when
>> you were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?
>
> My psychiatrist keeps looking for some "trigger" in my background.
> I can't think of one. There is a history of alcoholism and
> depression in my family, so I suppose it could be the "in the genes"
> thing.
>
> My childhood wasn't perfect, but there was no particular event there
> that I can point at.
>
> I have had my share of troubles over the years, but I don't think
> any more than most people. Generally, I think I have been quite
> fortunate.
>
> My shrink is now down to guessing that maybe something happened to
> me when I was too young to form a memory of it. Below 4 1/2 years
> or so.
>
> If she wants to think that, I don't care. But my opinion is that
> this is nonsense. I am more inclined to think that it is either
> something "in the genes" or that it is a behavior I learned from my
> parents.
>
> Since there are other members of my family who have experienced
> mental problems, I tend to believe the in-the-genes theory. We've
> got one that isn't right. Maybe two. Perhaps more.
>
> But it doesn't really matter, does it? It makes for a convenient
> excuse, but even if it's true it is nothing I can change. The
> bottom line is that I have a serious drinking problem along with
> some other psych issues which I need to deal with. Even if there
> were some trigger, it would not be something I could change. It
> would just make her think she'd figured me out. She won't.
>
> I have been tempted to make up some story, just to satisfy her.
>
>

Harry,

Keep it simple. You drank too much,too often and for too long. Remember
that you are unique, just like everybody else!

[Bob Smith]

But the drinking has to stop completely. It does not
> stop a little bit. It does not get "cut back".
>
Now your getting it.

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:02:51 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>It is, like you say, "at the end of the day it is my choice whether
>or not I drink."

This directly contradict's AA's basic text on the definition of
"alcoholism".

Those who abuse alcohol have a choice whether to abuse alcohol.
Alcoholics "of our type" have lost the power of choice. At certain
times the alcoholic is without effective mental defence against the
first drink.

>Make the problem simple. That is the only way to deal with it.

Understand the problem. That's the only way to have a clue how to
even begin dealing with it.

--
Blue Moon

[debs]

Don't forget I am not an AAer.

Everyone has to make choices. Even if the only choice you make is to go to
AA and follow the steps and admit that you are powerless over alcohol.
I feel that I have to make a choice most days. I can hit the bottle and get
drunk or I can live life to the full without a drink.. My choice in this
matter would end the minute I took the first sip cos I just don't have any
control once the alcohol is in my system. Once this happens the only
outcome for me is to carry on drinking until I pass out.

I know there is a line between abuse of alcohol and true alcohlism. Maybe I
never crossed the line, but I sure as hell don't want to keep on
experimenting until I do.

debs

--
You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the
rabbit hole goes

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5b84fccb0fd1017c6b02587032737228@news.teranew s.com...
> On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 12:02:51 -0500, The Other Harry
> <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >It is, like you say, "at the end of the day it is my choice whether
> >or not I drink."
>
> This directly contradict's AA's basic text on the definition of
> "alcoholism".
>
> Those who abuse alcohol have a choice whether to abuse alcohol.
> Alcoholics "of our type" have lost the power of choice. At certain
> times the alcoholic is without effective mental defence against the
> first drink.
>
> >Make the problem simple. That is the only way to deal with it.
>
> Understand the problem. That's the only way to have a clue how to
> even begin dealing with it.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC), "debs"
<debs172@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> I feel that I have to make a choice most days.

Not just most days for me. It is every day.

In this way, I agree with AA. It is "one day at time"

I do not necessarily agree with some of the other AA stuff, but I do
agree with that. One minute at a time.

Maybe Robert can enlighten us.

[debs]

--
You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the
rabbit hole goes

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:lk9usv0kqcr2a2a15jo2mcsvtdcbtjb2v8@4ax.com...
> [On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 09:22:45 +0000 (UTC), "debs"
> <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
> > I feel that I have to make a choice most days.
>
> Not just most days for me. It is every day.

Happily for me it used to be every day now it is only most days and
sometimes I will catch myself knowing that I have gone a whole week without
thinking about having a drink.
>
> In this way, I agree with AA. It is "one day at time"

I agree with this too...one day...one minute that is all we have sometimes.
>
> I do not necessarily agree with some of the other AA stuff, but I do
> agree with that. One minute at a time.

I don't agree or disagree with the AA stuff. I kinda borrowed the tools
that I needed to get sober from lots of programs. It suited me but you must
do what you have to do.
I have enjoyed reading your posts Harry but there has to be a point when you
'walk the walk and not just talk the walk' Hope that point comes soon for
you.

debs
>
> Maybe Robert can enlighten us.

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 4 Dec 2003 13:13:55 +0000 (UTC), "debs"
<debs172@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> I have enjoyed reading your posts Harry but there has to be a point when you
> 'walk the walk and not just talk the walk'

No argument.

I am very frustrated with myself for my failures.

How frustrated?

I am used to being able to do things well. I have not been doing
this one well. I have been screwing it up.

This is not good. The effect is to make me want to kill myself.

I have talked with Shrink #1 about this. I don't think she really
understands all this.

[Donald]

Personally Harry, I wish you well and hope that you can stop drinking. But
that is the one thing that all people have in common is hope.

We all hope that things will get better and that life will improve. But only
those that work on getting there will succeed. Which is why I personally
think that you will succeed.



"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:jh6ssvggkbc57fu6de8o380khprb8p4vca@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 16:19:54 GMT, "J. Rockford"
> <mikedawn@flash.net> wrote:]
>
> > Harry, You should get a shrink that will tell you you should
> > continue drinking and it's eveyone else who has the problem. This would
> > sure make ya feel a lot better after blowing $106 an hour. Then you
> > could give yourself an A+. Bottoms up, Mike
>
> I didn't really need that.
>
> I am seeing Shrink #1 who has an office down the street. I have an
> appointment to see Shrink #2 at UVa. I have been to a detox program
> and attended AA meetings.
>
> I am not successful, but I am trying. If you want to take shots at
> that, then go ahead.

[Donald]

Your friend sounds very smart to me. But that is the information I was
looking for. Are many alcoholics abused sexually or otherwise when they are
young? Is there a history of mental health or drinking problems in their
family? Anyone else wish to contribute to this line?

Thanks debs for the insight.

"debs" <debs172@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bql1sn$pc9$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> there is a history of alcohol abuse and mental illness in my family but at
> the end of the day it is my choice whether or not I drink. I don't have
too
> many choices with the mental health part although I do choose to
acknowledge
> it and take my medication (at the moment)
> I and my doctors are pretty sure that my mom had bipolar too but she
choose
> to ignore it, lived with the consequences and basically drank herself to
> death. Tragic really when there are so many treatments around these days.
> I was also sexually abused when I was younger which obviously had a
profound
> effect on me. I have had some counselling for this and have been offered
> more but at the moment my mood is a bit unstable so I have put it away in
a
> box in my mind for now.
> Clearing alcohol away has enabled me to see things clearly and I know when
> and if I can deal with past matters.
>
> I would also think that alcoholism is in the genes. I know someone who's
> family have been plauged with alcohol abuse. Because of this he has never
> taken a drink in his life. I guess he is always scared that one drink
will
> be too many.
>
> debs
>
> --
> You take the red pill, you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep
the
> rabbit hole goes
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:r6prsv03gp2lufdcg097qs7kej69fjh94b@4ax.com...
> > [On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 12:26:13 -0600, "Donald"
> > <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]
> >
> > > Is there any common denominator in the disease? Abuse by parents when
> you
> > > were kids, alcoholic parents, etc.?
> >
> > My psychiatrist keeps looking for some "trigger" in my background.
> > I can't think of one. There is a history of alcoholism and
> > depression in my family, so I suppose it could be the "in the genes"
> > thing.
> >
> > My childhood wasn't perfect, but there was no particular event there
> > that I can point at.
> >
> > I have had my share of troubles over the years, but I don't think
> > any more than most people. Generally, I think I have been quite
> > fortunate.
> >
> > My shrink is now down to guessing that maybe something happened to
> > me when I was too young to form a memory of it. Below 4 1/2 years
> > or so.
> >
> > If she wants to think that, I don't care. But my opinion is that
> > this is nonsense. I am more inclined to think that it is either
> > something "in the genes" or that it is a behavior I learned from my
> > parents.
> >
> > Since there are other members of my family who have experienced
> > mental problems, I tend to believe the in-the-genes theory. We've
> > got one that isn't right. Maybe two. Perhaps more.
> >
> > But it doesn't really matter, does it? It makes for a convenient
> > excuse, but even if it's true it is nothing I can change. The
> > bottom line is that I have a serious drinking problem along with
> > some other psych issues which I need to deal with. Even if there
> > were some trigger, it would not be something I could change. It
> > would just make her think she'd figured me out. She won't.
> >
> > I have been tempted to make up some story, just to satisfy her.
> >
>
>

[Donald]

I am just an average man that has had in the past 4 girlfriends that had a
drinking problem. One I met at work, another I met through the personals,
the third was a neighbor in my apartment complex (but she was just a friend
not really a girl friend) and the 4th I met at an Anime festival.

I work in the computer field and having worked mostly nights, weekends and
holidays it was a very lonely job. And then moving from one state in the
north to a state in the south didn't help because I was viewed as a ?damned
yankee" by many.

I don't drink, smoke or do drugs, but until I met my filipino pen pal and
eventually married her, I kept meeting people that had a problem with
drinking.

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1o2ssv4f24o6ob258g9balbt409mbkjfml@4ax.com...
> [On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 12:44:14 -0600, "Donald"
> <bagman2002@bigplanet.com> wrote:]
>
> > No I'm not a troll (whatever that is for this group). I'm just someone
that
> > dad some Alcoholic girlfriends and is simply looking for some insight
into
> > their actions (if any can be found)
>
> Say a little more about yourself. Many of us have.