Harry?

[Bobby L.]

Alright... simple questions ... two....
Do you want to get sober?
Are you willing to follow some advice?
Don't give me a friggin' paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No. You can
probably handle that.

Bobby L

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
<BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> Alright... simple questions ... two....
> Do you want to get sober?
> Are you willing to follow some advice?
> Don't give me a friggin' paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No. You can
> probably handle that.

Those are AA questions, and I can't answer them without writing
paragraphs.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
<BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> Alright... simple questions ... two....
> Do you want to get sober?
> Are you willing to follow some advice?
> Don't give me a friggin' paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No. You can
> probably handle that.

No, I don't want to quit drinking. I just think I have to or I
will die. I have a few things left to do in my life. I would
prefer not to die quite yet.

That's paragraph #1

[Shawster]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:741orv07285tijqu17hlg2anmobpsj231r@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
> <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > Alright... simple questions ... two....
> > Do you want to get sober?
> > Are you willing to follow some advice?
> > Don't give me a friggin' paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No. You
can
> > probably handle that.
>
> No, I don't want to quit drinking. I
> will die. I have few things left in my life. I would
> prefer to die.
>
> That's paragraph #1
>
where do I send the flowers?

[Xanadu]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:06:29 -0500, The Other Harry wrote:

> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
> <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
>> Alright... simple questions ... two.... Do you want to get sober?
>> Are you willing to follow some advice? Don't give me a friggin'
>> paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No. You can probably handle
>> that.
>
> No, I don't want to quit drinking. I just think I have to or I will
> die. I have a few things left to do in my life. I would prefer not to
> die quite yet.
>
> That's paragraph #1


(Not to butt in, but...)

Will being drunk make you enjoy / endure (which ever is applicable) these
things you still want to / have to do in your life?

If the answer is "no", then I think your next choice to make in your life
is quite obvious.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:47:15 -0500, Xanadu
<xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote:]

> Will being drunk make you enjoy / endure (which ever is applicable) these
> things you still want to / have to do in your life?

Drinking will make them impossible.

But not drinking will do the same. It is really strange.

As jokes go, this is not one.

[Xanadu]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 20:14:43 -0500, The Other Harry wrote:

> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:47:15 -0500, Xanadu
> <xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote:]
>
>> Will being drunk make you enjoy / endure (which ever is applicable) these
>> things you still want to / have to do in your life?
>
> Drinking will make them impossible.
>
> But not drinking will do the same. It is really strange.
>
> As jokes go, this is not one.


I think you are very wrong.

Sure, if whatever it is that you want to do falls right in your detox
time, yea, then I'd agree wioth you. It'll be weird, all shacking and
stuff when you're trying to put on a "happy face". Sure. I'd say that's
*damn* rough.

*BUT*

If you're over that much of the hump when you do the things you want to
do, man, you'll realize that you are wrong.

Seriously.

No bullshit.

[Bobby L.]

Don't read between the lines....
Just answer the friggin questions. Why must everything be all or nothing
with a damn drunk.
I did not ask if you wanted to quit drinking....

I asked Do you want to get sober? (you do read, don't you?)

Is that plain enough for you .... give your brain a rest... you're working
without tools .

Bobby L




"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:741orv07285tijqu17hlg2anmobpsj231r@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
> <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > Alright... simple questions ... two....
> > Do you want to get sober?
> > Are you willing to follow some advice?
> > Don't give me a friggin' paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No. You
can
> > probably handle that.
>
> No, I don't want to quit drinking. I just think I have to or I
> will die. I have a few things left to do in my life. I would
> prefer not to die quite yet.
>
> That's paragraph #1

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:12:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
<BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> Why must everything be all or nothing
> with a damn drunk.

I have been talking with Nancy -- Shrink #1 -- about this. She
regards this as one of my major issues.

That is what I do. I don't drink just two ounces of scotch. I
don't work eight just hours a day (when working). I don't clean
the sink just a little bit.

It does need to be all or nothing.

This is an issue. It is a dysfunctional behavior. Completely
and absolutely. I think it goes directly to whatever my "root
problem" is.

Nancy and I will get that worked out.

Until we do, the chance of me successfully quitting drinking is
approximately none at all.

But we'll get there. It may take a month or two.

[Mias]

Harry
Please consider that you present the 'perfect' alcoholic in therapy. Every
character defect and view is from the text book. IMHO the 'normal' alcoholic
does not present anything approaching perfection and has as many thinking
patterns and fligths of fancy as what there are wind directions.
Should you not scale it down slightly and then you might find the real
answer about who you are and what you should do about it? (With your other
half?)
Kind regards
Mias
14 years clean and sober and enjoying every second!.
"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:e6jorv4r7l4mu7kurr2mvu3mph2mcqjnna@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:12:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
> <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > Why must everything be all or nothing
> > with a damn drunk.
>
> I have been talking with Nancy -- Shrink #1 -- about this. She
> regards this as one of my major issues.
>
> That is what I do. I don't drink just two ounces of scotch. I
> don't work eight just hours a day (when working). I don't clean
> the sink just a little bit.
>
> It does need to be all or nothing.
>
> This is an issue. It is a dysfunctional behavior. Completely
> and absolutely. I think it goes directly to whatever my "root
> problem" is.
>
> Nancy and I will get that worked out.
>
> Until we do, the chance of me successfully quitting drinking is
> approximately none at all.
>
> But we'll get there. It may take a month or two.
>

[Xanadu]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:12:36 -0500, Bobby L. wrote:

> Just answer the friggin questions. Why must everything be all or nothing
> with a damn drunk.


I (personally) thought that that's just the way we are (were - which ever
applies).

[Mark Warner]

The Other Harry wrote:
>
> This is an issue. It is a dysfunctional behavior. Completely
> and absolutely. I think it goes directly to whatever my "root
> problem" is.
>
> Nancy and I will get that worked out.
>
> Until we do, the chance of me successfully quitting drinking is
> approximately none at all.
>
> But we'll get there. It may take a month or two.


If that's what your shrink is telling you, she's a quack.

You'll never get at the "root issues" (what bullshit, but that's another
thread...) until you quit drinking.

If you think she's gonna find and fix your "root issues" in a month or
two, and then you'll miraculously be able to just put the drink down (or
even better, drink like a normal person), then you're both full of shit.

Face it, Harry, you're a fucking drunk. There ain't no "root issue"
that, once revealed and 'healed,' will enable you to take the booze or
leave it. You've got it all backwards -- the drinking has to stop first.
All this "Why am I an alcoholic" shit is bogus. You just fucking are --
face it like a man. Then do something about it. (And no, talking about
"root issues" ain't 'doing something,' either.) If this Nancy chick is
telling you any different, she's either an oblivious incompetent when it
comes to alcoholism (at best), or a charlatan, plain and simple.

If and when you ever realize this, you'll then be ready to move forward.
Until then, welcome to your life. It doesn't get any better, so you
might at well quit whining about it.

--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying

[The Other Harry]

[On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:49:51 -0500, "Mark Warner"
<mhwarner.inhibitions@insightbb.com> wrote:]

> If that's what your shrink is telling you, she's a quack.
>
> You'll never get at the "root issues" (what bullshit, but that's another
> thread...) until you quit drinking.
>
> If you think she's gonna find and fix your "root issues" in a month or
> two, and then you'll miraculously be able to just put the drink down (or
> even better, drink like a normal person), then you're both full of shit.
>
> Face it, Harry, you're a fucking drunk. There ain't no "root issue"
> that, once revealed and 'healed,' will enable you to take the booze or
> leave it. You've got it all backwards -- the drinking has to stop first.

<snip>

Mark, your advice is good for you and probably for a lot of
people. But this is like the arguments about med's that go
on here.

You don't know me. I am a indeed a fucking drunk, but as of
the present time I am better off as a fucking drunk than
when I am sober. Then I become a fucking crazy person.
That will not do. I have tried it several times now.

You may not understand that, but I can assure you that it is
true. I get wound up, suicidal, and unable to do anything
at all. I get worse and worse as each day passes.

I am not talking simple detox here. I have physically
detoxed several times during the past six months, once in a
county program and a couple times on my own. Quitting
drinking isn't easy, but it is something I can do.

It is what happens after that where I run into problems.
And they aren't little problems.

My psychiatrist and I may not get to what I refer to as my
"root problem" in a couple months, but I think we can make a
dent.

She isn't a quack. Not for me.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:0cqqrvg3bb28eld06jdtvdmm5l6gvb9idm@4ax.com...
>
> You don't know me. I am a indeed a fucking drunk, but as of
> the present time I am better off as a fucking drunk than
> when I am sober.

If you are better off as a drunk, then why are you wasting our time looking
for advice to get sober? If you think you are better off as a drunk, why
would you want to change? Just stay drunk.


>Then I become a fucking crazy person.

Apparently so.

> That will not do. I have tried it several times now.
> You may not understand that, but I can assure you that it is
> true. I get wound up, suicidal, and unable to do anything
> at all. I get worse and worse as each day passes.

We can see that.

>
> I am not talking simple detox here. I have physically
> detoxed several times during the past six months, once in a
> county program and a couple times on my own. Quitting
> drinking isn't easy, but it is something I can do.

Staying quit seems to be a real problem, eh?

>
> My psychiatrist and I may not get to what I refer to as my
> "root problem" in a couple months, but I think we can make a
> dent.

As hard headed as you appear to be, I doubt if there will be much of a dent
made.

>
> She isn't a quack. Not for me.

As long as she's pandering to your delusions and kissing your ass and
telling you what you want to hear, you'd hardly think otherwise.
>

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:48:17 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Quitting drinking isn't easy, but it is something I can do.
>
>It is what happens after that where I run into problems.
>And they aren't little problems.

Of course. That's the whole point of Step 1 .... life becomes
unmanageable WITHOUT booze, which means that the unrecovered alcoholic
always eventually drinks again. He cannot face his perception of
reality, therefore he has to emotionally run from it using whatever
chemical means he can. At times the alcoholic has no effective mental
defence against the first drink.

Why? Because alcohol creates a temporary psychosis which alters the
drinker's perception of reality. Until he can recover from this
condition, what he fails to realise is that the perception is warped
either with or without alcohol... alcohol just seems to make things
alright again. He cannot see that it is alcohol, not reality, that is
warping the perception this way in the first place.

>My psychiatrist and I may not get to what I refer to as my
>"root problem" in a couple months, but I think we can make a
>dent.

Self-knowledge without action is useless. So it certainly will
achieve sod-all until after you've quit running from the problems with
alcohol (or other drugs). But I guess you'll have to learn that
lesson the hard way.

>She isn't a quack. Not for me.

You think your judgement is functioning properly? She may be very
nice, but because your perception is warped and befogged with booze
I'm inclined to take what you say she's said with a pinch of salt
anyway. It's amazing how the active alcoholic brain can hear what it
wants to hear.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:54:00 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> You think your judgement is functioning properly?

I think it is. It is fogged up by the booze, but if it
wasn't I wouldn't be able to think at all. This what I need
to do in order to get by.

My opinion at the moment is that my first problems are with
sleep, schedule, diet, and religion. I am going to seek
med's for the sleep. That has to happen. It is
non-negotiable. That comes next.

I think I've got the diet part worked out. A huge increase
in fruits and veggies.

The schedule part is a bit more complicated. I need to get
more out of the house. There are various ways to do that.

I do not think AA works for me. I have gotten several ideas
there, but I'm not buying in. I agree more with what my
shrink said about taking control of your life. Not
powerless, but powerful.

The jury is still out on religion. I think I need a fairly
fundamental group. The shrink and I do not agree here.

We shall see. No doubt about that.

[Ricky Gentry]

> My opinion at the moment is that my first problems are with
> sleep, schedule, diet, and religion.

Hungry, Angry, Lonley, Tired


I am going to seek
> med's for the sleep. That has to happen. It is
> non-negotiable. That comes next.
>

Alcoholic thinking- 1st thought is to get a drug to "fix" it.


> I think I've got the diet part worked out. A huge increase
> in fruits and veggies.
>

Try low carbs. Plenty of protein, a reduction in enzymes that trigger
emotions in the brain. Hand in hand with the sugar issue common in
alcoholics. Plus you can loose weight quickly which is more of an immediate
satisfaction. It will drain the energy though.


> I do not think AA works for me. I have gotten several ideas
> there,


That sounds like it works to a degree.


but I'm not buying in. I agree more with what my
> shrink said about taking control of your life. Not
> powerless, but powerful.
>

If you are powerful, why see a shrink for control issues or a doctor for
sleep issues? AA states that you buy in to the idea that you become
powerless when you take a drink. Your power is in relying on a HP for help
to not do that - kind of like a doctor or a shrink.

> We shall see. No doubt about that.

Keep posting. I'm interested in the outcome. Tell the truth either way-
don't just say what you think people would like to hear or just to tick
people off. Let me / us know what is really happening - it could help our
butts too.

Good luck.

[Robert McGregor]

"Ricky Gentry" <rggentry@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:prpvb.1959$qk2.1804@news01.roc.ny...
> AA states that you buy in to the idea that you become
> powerless when you take a drink.

Bet you cannot document that bullshit.

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:38:13 GMT, "Ricky Gentry"
<rggentry@citlink.net> wrote:]

> Alcoholic thinking- 1st thought is to get a drug to "fix" it.

It has to be fixed. In my case, it does.

The inability to sleep is a major problem. It feeds on
whatever else is going on with me. I cannot lie there all
night long and not sleep. I cannot get out of the house the
next day.

If fixing that takes med's, then so be it.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <1lbsrv40vhensf6qc1f9lj5gvco9o52dpa@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:38:13 GMT, "Ricky Gentry"
><rggentry@citlink.net> wrote:]
>
>> Alcoholic thinking- 1st thought is to get a drug to "fix" it.
>
>It has to be fixed. In my case, it does.
>
>The inability to sleep is a major problem. It feeds on
>whatever else is going on with me. I cannot lie there all
>night long and not sleep. I cannot get out of the house the
>next day.
>
>If fixing that takes med's, then so be it.

Try: herbal remedies/meditation/new age tapes/cds/horlicks. All of these
have worked for me in the past. If you need meds it is likely you will
get them in the short term, and the best by far is Zopiclone - I used to
use it on flight to the US. Knocks you cold in 10 mins.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Bobby L.]

So the answer is No, I do not want to get sober and No, I am not willing to
listen to any advice.

Pretty much what I heard. So if we eliminate the impossible, not matter
what is left, however improbable, is the truth. This basically leaves us
with ... you have nothing better to do than waste my bandwidth and my time
with your inane posts and thoughts. Please go irritate someone you love.



Bobby L


"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_6Xub.12699$ow5.5907@bignews2.bellsouth.net.. .
> Don't read between the lines....
> Just answer the friggin questions. Why must everything be all or nothing
> with a damn drunk.
> I did not ask if you wanted to quit drinking....
>
> I asked Do you want to get sober? (you do read, don't you?)
>
> Is that plain enough for you .... give your brain a rest... you're
working
> without tools .
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:741orv07285tijqu17hlg2anmobpsj231r@4ax.com...
> > [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 18:43:36 -0500, "Bobby L."
> > <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
> >
> > > Alright... simple questions ... two....
> > > Do you want to get sober?
> > > Are you willing to follow some advice?
> > > Don't give me a friggin' paragraph when a word will do. Yes or No.
You
> can
> > > probably handle that.
> >
> > No, I don't want to quit drinking. I just think I have to or I
> > will die. I have a few things left to do in my life. I would
> > prefer not to die quite yet.
> >
> > That's paragraph #1
>
>

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:36:39 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:54:00 GMT, Blue Moon
><mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
>> You think your judgement is functioning properly?
>
>I think it is. It is fogged up by the booze, but if it
>wasn't I wouldn't be able to think at all. This what I need
>to do in order to get by.
>
>My opinion at the moment is that my first problems are with
>sleep, schedule, diet, and religion. I am going to seek
>med's for the sleep. That has to happen. It is
>non-negotiable. That comes next.
>
>I think I've got the diet part worked out. A huge increase
>in fruits and veggies.

So what does the booze do to all the vitamins and other "good stuff"
that comes from fruits etc.? It kills them! Eating more apples and
then drinking alcohol is a waste of time because it has no benefit.

Suffering a weight problem? It's surprising how much of that comes
from booze too.

Still think the thinking is working?

>I do not think AA works for me.

Of course not. If you thought that, you'd have been willing to do
what is suggested, and you'd no longer be drinking.

>I agree more with what my
>shrink said about taking control of your life. Not
>powerless, but powerful.

If so, she's quite clearly clueless about the AA program. You were
clearly demonstrating your own powerlessness over alcohol the other
day through your description of driving drunk. You are demonstrating
it again through your belief that you're unable to think without it.

You sure she wasn't humoring your own opinions on the subject? If I
was a shrink and someone walked in with strong ideas about something,
I'd probably not be immediately pushing them away with words which
simply deflate the opinion. Even someone who expresses no opinion in
words can show that opinion through body-language, even if it's a
defensive justification for not doing what was suggested. So, once
again, I'm more inclined to take what your shrink said, or what you
think was said, with a pinch of salt.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:02:12 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> If so, she's quite clearly clueless about the AA program.

She is not. She just does not agree with it.

The concept of being powerless over anything is simply not
something that she agrees with. I tend to go along with her on
that.

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:50:37 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:02:12 GMT, Blue Moon
><mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
>> If so, she's quite clearly clueless about the AA program.
>
>She is not. She just does not agree with it.
>
>The concept of being powerless over anything is simply not
>something that she agrees with. I tend to go along with her on
>that.

Hence her demonstration of ignorance. If you had power over booze,
you'd be able to handle drinking the stuff without it getting power
over the extent to which you get drunk. If you had power over booze,
you wouldn't be still drinking the stuff whilst convinced you need to
quit. Is your shrink really so ignorant to this reality, or are you
hiding from her the extent to which booze really has a handle on your
life?

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:glbvrv8lkcrhc89dpgoha8crcuqt6midf2@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:02:12 GMT, Blue Moon
> <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
> > If so, she's quite clearly clueless about the AA program.
>
> She is not. She just does not agree with it.
>
> The concept of being powerless over anything is simply not
> something that she agrees with. I tend to go along with her on
> that.
>

Seems the shrink is not powerless in extracting cash out of a gullible
Harry.

I'm prepared to bet a bottle of award winning wine that the same shrink is
powerless over her own incompetence in being unable to find *any* step of
the simple AA program that claims AA's are powerless.. I wonder if Harry
will ask her if she is prepared to accept the bet?

Bob

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1f04fa53cfd7d4d0e1b2190dc84b3b84@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 13:50:37 -0500, The Other Harry
> <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >[On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 18:02:12 GMT, Blue Moon
> ><mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

BM wrote:
> >
> >> If so, she's quite clearly clueless about the AA program.
> >
Harry wrote:

> >She is not. She just does not agree with it.
<snip>

BM wrote:

>. Is your shrink really so ignorant to this reality, or are you
> hiding from her the extent to which booze really has a handle on
your
> life?
>
> --
> Blue Moon

From: JB (JBCatRB@coldman.com) 16th Nov 2003

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:a1jcrvkrp1p8rn1b6u87rf7ob36q13un73@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 10:17:18 -0000, "JB" > <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

<snip>
The Other Harry wrote:

> It continues to interest me that my new shrink does not think
> that I should quit drinking -- not cold turkey, anyway. She
> just wants me to get out of the house so I don't drink quite so
> much. I'm going to have to discuss this more with her. That's
> Tuesday morning at 11:00.

<snip>

LOL. Did you tell her that you are an alcoholic ? If not, was it
because you don't think you are ?

BTW, I'm curious to know whether you are the same Harry who used to
post from the same address as
you. ? That Harry admitted to being an alcoholic, understood
alcoholism and also understood how AA
works:

(End of quote)

Blue,

Harry never answered my questions..

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:08:07 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> LOL. Did you tell her that you are an alcoholic ? If not, was it
> because you don't think you are ?

I told her that. I may have said "drinking problem", but I told
her all about it. I told her about the deprivation seizure, the
detox, and all of it. I stated up front that was my reason for
seeing her.

> BTW, I'm curious to know whether you are the same Harry who used to
> post from the same address as
> you. ? That Harry admitted to being an alcoholic, understood
> alcoholism and also understood how AA
> works:

It's the same me. My thinking has just changed a bit since I
first started posting here.

Going to the AA meetings helped me a great deal during the six
weeks or so that I stayed sober after getting out of detox.
They helped me in two ways:

1) It was good for me to publicly admit that I am an alcoholic
(whatever term)

2) They got me out of the house on a regular basis

I have been thinking about all this. As far as #2 goes, they
could just as well have been bingo games. #1 was important.

You won't find me criticizing AA. It has done a lot of good for
a lot of people. It has helped me be sober for about half the
time since May, and it has given me a lot of ideas.

But in terms of moving ahead -- for me -- from here, I don't
think that is my personal path. I think I need to get a job,
get some med's to at least help me with the sleeping, and things
like that. My own 12 step program.

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 07:49:59 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> Seems the shrink is not powerless in extracting cash out of a gullible
> Harry.

As shrinks go, she doesn't charge that much. I think she
already has enough money. She has a nice little house that she
uses for appointments two days a week and a new Land Rover
(which I want to look at more).

I am still going to keep my appt with UVa in December. They
will cost me twice as much, but a second opinion will be worth
getting. IMO.

It would sure be nice to have insurance.

> I'm prepared to bet a bottle of award winning wine that the same shrink is
> powerless over her own incompetence in being unable to find *any* step of
> the simple AA program that claims AA's are powerless.. I wonder if Harry
> will ask her if she is prepared to accept the bet?

Roberto, I have to give you some credit. Credit where credit is
due, and some is due.

Many of your posts are blatantly argumentive and negative, but
not all of them. You sometimes post things that are thoughtful
and constructive.

We can talk again now.

[The Other Harry]

[On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:25:09 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> Hence her demonstration of ignorance. If you had power over booze,
> you'd be able to handle drinking the stuff without it getting power
> over the extent to which you get drunk. If you had power over booze,
> you wouldn't be still drinking the stuff whilst convinced you need to
> quit. Is your shrink really so ignorant to this reality, or are you
> hiding from her the extent to which booze really has a handle on your
> life?

It is the way out that I am focused on.

For me -- and for each of us, it is "for me" -- it does not help
me to be powerless over anything. I am not weak. I am strong.
I can conquer this.

You dance your own tune.

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 20:47:35 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:25:09 GMT, Blue Moon
><mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
>> Hence her demonstration of ignorance. If you had power over booze,
>> you'd be able to handle drinking the stuff without it getting power
>> over the extent to which you get drunk. If you had power over booze,
>> you wouldn't be still drinking the stuff whilst convinced you need to
>> quit. Is your shrink really so ignorant to this reality, or are you
>> hiding from her the extent to which booze really has a handle on your
>> life?
>
>It is the way out that I am focused on.
>
>For me -- and for each of us, it is "for me" -- it does not help
>me to be powerless over anything.

Even though you clearly are, even by your own admission?

> I am not weak. I am strong. I can conquer this.
>
>You dance your own tune.

At least mine is in tune. Your dance is clearly not working. Not
sure how long it has to go on not working before you'll admit this
reality though.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 02:16:43 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

>>You dance your own tune.
>
> At least mine is in tune. Your dance is clearly not working. Not
> sure how long it has to go on not working before you'll admit this
> reality though.

You sometimes post good messages. Why not do it all the time?

Coming down on me when I am doing my best to be open
accomplishes nothing. It only makes me want to go away. Maybe
I will, and maybe that is what you want me to do.

Very nice.

[MYOB]

The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
news:o340svo72a8dnjrrcv1b2mct93md4jpn37@4ax.com:

> [On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:25:09 GMT, Blue Moon
> <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
>> Hence her demonstration of ignorance. If you had power over booze,
>> you'd be able to handle drinking the stuff without it getting power
>> over the extent to which you get drunk. If you had power over booze,
>> you wouldn't be still drinking the stuff whilst convinced you need to
>> quit. Is your shrink really so ignorant to this reality, or are you
>> hiding from her the extent to which booze really has a handle on your
>> life?
>
> It is the way out that I am focused on.
>
> For me -- and for each of us, it is "for me" -- it does not help
> me to be powerless over anything. I am not weak. I am strong.
> I can conquer this.
>
> You dance your own tune.

I admitted I WAS powerless over alcohol. Since I have found a way to not
ingest it ( see step 2 ), I have got my power back.

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:41:04 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 02:16:43 GMT, Blue Moon
><mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
>>>You dance your own tune.
>>
>> At least mine is in tune. Your dance is clearly not working. Not
>> sure how long it has to go on not working before you'll admit this
>> reality though.
>
>You sometimes post good messages. Why not do it all the time?

Who's to say I don't? Doesn't matter to me if you like what is said.
Sometimes the truth hurts, but that doesn't stop it being the truth,
or needing to be said.

>Coming down on me when I am doing my best to be open
>accomplishes nothing. It only makes me want to go away. Maybe
>I will, and maybe that is what you want me to do.

What I want is irrelevant. Your comment sounds like projection.
Given that this forum is "alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism" I prefer
to hear of "recovery" solutions for "alcoholism" that work, not those
that don't. If a solution works, I'm interested in hearing about it
and discussing it even if it's not the solution I opted for. I have
little time for solutions or theories that clearly don't work.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 04:01:08 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> What I want is irrelevant. Your comment sounds like projection.
> Given that this forum is "alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism" I prefer
> to hear of "recovery" solutions for "alcoholism" that work, not those
> that don't. If a solution works, I'm interested in hearing about it
> and discussing it even if it's not the solution I opted for. I have
> little time for solutions or theories that clearly don't work.

A little more time for me. I am working on it.

But don't go dumping on me for my failures. Most people who are
in AA have failed a lot of times. In my local group they say
they have.

Maybe you know everything about this. But I don't think so.

I have other psychological problems which I will need to deal
with. They go beyond the booze problems. I may not get them
figured out or fixed within the next few months, but that is
where I need to go.

So, we go there. That is all that there is left to do.
Quitting drinking will not be enough for me. For me.

[Mias]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:o340svo72a8dnjrrcv1b2mct93md4jpn37@4ax.com...
> For me -- and for each of us, it is "for me" -- it does not help
> me to be powerless over anything. I am not weak. I am strong.
> I can conquer this.
Harry - An old-timer told me once to use my 'power', mainly willpower, and
drink 4 tablespoons of Epsom Salts on half a litre of warm water. The test
then is to not go to the toilet for a week after that. If you fail, so much
for not being powerless. I did not do the test as it was obvious to me that
I would fail. It took me a while longer, going to AA, to accept that one
drink had the same effect on me and landed me in a sligthly different
toilet, but still, a toilet.
Kind regards
Mias
14 Years clean and sober and enjoying every second!
> [On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:25:09 GMT, Blue Moon
> <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
> > Hence her demonstration of ignorance. If you had power over booze,
> > you'd be able to handle drinking the stuff without it getting power
> > over the extent to which you get drunk. If you had power over booze,
> > you wouldn't be still drinking the stuff whilst convinced you need to
> > quit. Is your shrink really so ignorant to this reality, or are you
> > hiding from her the extent to which booze really has a handle on your
> > life?
>
> It is the way out that I am focused on.
>
> For me -- and for each of us, it is "for me" -- it does not help
> me to be powerless over anything. I am not weak. I am strong.
> I can conquer this.
>
> You dance your own tune.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:c610sv47vtm78uq68dvoilfhogmtdeke0r@4ax.com...
> [On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 22:08:07 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > LOL. Did you tell her that you are an alcoholic ? If not, was it
> > because you don't think you are ?
>
> I told her that. I may have said "drinking problem", but I told
> her all about it. I told her about the deprivation seizure, the
> detox, and all of it. I stated up front that was my reason for
> seeing her.

IMO, there's a big difference between "having a drinking problem" and
being "an alcoholic".

When I thought I had only a *drinking problem*, I believed that I
would
one day be able to drink like those who don't have one. The day that
I knew in my head and heart that I was an *alcoholic* was the day I
realised that I would never again be able to control my drinking if I
continued to drink. When I went to see my doctor in June to talk
about my low spirits and stopping drinking, one of the things he told
me to do was to *reduce* the amount I drank :^)) LOL. When I
explained to him why I believed that I was an alcoholic and that
I was convinced that in order to give myself any chance of breaking
free from my drinking habit, I had to not drink at all, he agreed that
I should not be drinking at all... FWIW, I think that if you told
Nancy that you only had a "drinking problem" you misled her:

From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (7th June 2003)

"I have been an alcoholic for years -- about 35 years of nearly daily
drinking for the purpose of getting drunk".

From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (15th June 2003)

"I am 56 now, and I have only recently come to grips with the fact
that I truly am and alcoholic and that I really do need to quit
drinking"

> > BTW, I'm curious to know whether you are the same Harry who used
to
> > post from the same address as
> > you. ? That Harry admitted to being an alcoholic, understood
> > alcoholism and also understood how AA
> > works:
>
> It's the same me. My thinking has just changed a bit since I
> first started posting here.

I've noticed :^))

> Going to the AA meetings helped me a great deal during the six
> weeks or so that I stayed sober after getting out of detox.
> They helped me in two ways:
>
> 1) It was good for me to publicly admit that I am an alcoholic
> (whatever term)

What does the term "alcoholic mean to you "

From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (8th June 2003)

"I personally would tend to define active alcoholism as a 1)
dependency on / addiction to alcohol consumption which is difficult to
give up; and 2) where the alcohol consumption is causing harm to the
person or to those around him".

<snip>

> But in terms of moving ahead -- for me -- from here, I don't
> think that is my personal path. I think I need to get a job,
> get some med's to at least help me with the sleeping, and things
> like that. My own 12 step program.

LOL. Once again, you've not stated "stop drinking". You don't *want*
to not drink do you ? :^)) Before answering this, remember this:

From Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com) (15th June 2003)

"It's the lies we tell ourselves that do the most damage".

(End of quote)

BTW, when did you stop going to AA meetings and ditch your Sponsor

From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com ( 7th June 2003)

"I do not expect to ever be able to completely buy into all aspects of
the AA program. I'm not even going to try to. That will never happen.
What I *am* going to try to do is to get as much out of the program as
I can manage to come to grips with myself. I'm going to try to keep
an open mind about the rest of it as well, but I know me -- I will
never swallow it all. But I don't think you have to swallow it all in
order for the program to be successful.

I know that _for me_, trying to quit drinking on my own has never
worked for more than a month, and it has rarely worked for even that
long. I *think* I should be able to do it, but I haven't ever been
able to actually pull it off. I always eind up back in the bottle. It
is time for me to try something else. Otherwise I'm going
to die from this.

I am going to attend meetings and I am going to try to find a sponsor
who I can relate to and talk with. Even doing that much won't be easy
for me. I'm on step #1 and I may never get past that step."

From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (15th June 2003)

Several of y'all out there have given me a bad time about taking so
long to get a sponsor -- one week apparently being a long time to do
that after having consumed alcohol on a near daily basis for the
preceding 35 years. Well, you can't rag on me any more. So there!

From: The Other Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (21st Nov 2003)

"Standard detox and AA do not seem to work for me. They may work for
you. It isn't like I haven't taken a run at it that way. There are
some good ideas there".

(End of quotes)

FWIW, I think that while you were in AA and working with a Sponsor,
you were benefiting from what you were doing. Not only were you sober
but you were able to think clearly and had the determination needed to
beat alcoholism. I hope that you soon regain what you've lost.

Yours in friendship

JB

"It's the lies we tell ourselves that do the most damage" Harry
(hc.me@ix.netcom.com) (15th June 2003)

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:19:01 -0000, "JB"
<JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]

> FWIW, I think that if you told
> Nancy that you only had a "drinking problem" you misled her.

I might have. I tried not to.

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:19:01 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> IMO, there's a big difference between "having a drinking problem" and
> being "an alcoholic".

I'll take another run at that this Tuesday. I want to talk with
her about sleeping med's, but it also makes sense to also be
clear to her about my "drinking problem".

I don't mind telling her that I am an alcoholic. That is why I
am seeing her. That and the rest.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:6541svore2l3gtkb0biaopreao2ibfs2fj@4ax.com...
> [On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:19:01 -0000, "JB"
> <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:]
>
> > FWIW, I think that if you told
> > Nancy that you only had a "drinking problem" you misled her.
>
> I might have. I tried not to.

Do you clearly recall anything that you told her ?

Before answering remember:

"It's the lies we tell, ourselves that do the most damage"

JB

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:gn41svo7vss9l67gdk8q1ajf9kt1g6318l@4ax.com...
> [On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:19:01 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > IMO, there's a big difference between "having a drinking problem"
and
> > being "an alcoholic".
>
> I'll take another run at that this Tuesday. I want to talk with
> her about sleeping med's, but it also makes sense to also be
> clear to her about my "drinking problem".
>
> I don't mind telling her that I am an alcoholic. That is why I
> am seeing her. That and the rest.

Have you been keeping the journal she asked you to ?

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <gn41svo7vss9l67gdk8q1ajf9kt1g6318l@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:19:01 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
>wrote:]
>
>> IMO, there's a big difference between "having a drinking problem" and
>> being "an alcoholic".
>
>I'll take another run at that this Tuesday. I want to talk with
>her about sleeping med's, but it also makes sense to also be
>clear to her about my "drinking problem".
>
>I don't mind telling her that I am an alcoholic. That is why I
>am seeing her. That and the rest.

Rather than worrying about labels, the most important thing is to be
completely honest about your drinking.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bpq6en$fqu$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
writes
>
>"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:gn41svo7vss9l67gdk8q1ajf9kt1g6318l@4ax.com...
>> [On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:19:01 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
>> wrote:]
>>
>> > IMO, there's a big difference between "having a drinking problem"
>and
>> > being "an alcoholic".
>>
>> I'll take another run at that this Tuesday. I want to talk with
>> her about sleeping med's, but it also makes sense to also be
>> clear to her about my "drinking problem".
>>
>> I don't mind telling her that I am an alcoholic. That is why I
>> am seeing her. That and the rest.
>
>Have you been keeping the journal she asked you to ?

And honestly.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[rosie read and post]

>
> > For me -- and for each of us, it is "for me" -- it does not help
> > me to be powerless over anything. I am not weak. I am strong.
> > I can conquer this.


i have heard this "feeling" expressed over and over "around the
tables", and i find it VERY IMPORTANT to share that when i quit
drinking, i didn't understand that "powerlessness" was NOT
"weakness"...........................

in EARLY recovery, the words powerlessness, humility, surrender, to
name a few, seem to cause a very strong reaction are are best
avoided with some.

rosie

[Moonraker]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7k2wb.69247$Eq1.34754@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> i have heard this "feeling" expressed over and over "around the
> tables", and i find it VERY IMPORTANT to share that when i quit
> drinking, i didn't understand that "powerlessness" was NOT
> "weakness"...........................
>
> in EARLY recovery, the words powerlessness, humility, surrender, to
> name a few, seem to cause a very strong reaction are are best
> avoided with some.
>
> rosie

So, what smarmy phrases did you substitute so as not to hurt the feelings of
the wet drunk who happened to wander in?

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:37:10 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> So, what smarmy phrases did you substitute so as not to hurt the feelings of
> the wet drunk who happened to wander in?

I have said this before, but I will say it again:

I don't think anybody "just happens to wander in" to this
newsgroup. Or into an AA meeting, or into a detox program, or
into a shrink's office.

We mostly all get to these places because we have problems which
we are making some attempt to confront. We may be less than
successful -- as I am -- but we are getting over the denial
phase and looking for help.

It could well be that many of us are still making excuses for
our problem(s). I probably am. But we at least now know we
have them.

The antagonistic posts are not good. For every one person --
like me -- who is willing to endure them, there are probably 100
who are not. It makes no sense. I appreciate those who don't
do that.

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 23:42:57 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>But don't go dumping on me for my failures. Most people who are
>in AA have failed a lot of times. In my local group they say
>they have.

Most people who talk of "fail" are newcomers who've still not yet
learned how to "succeed", and that the very definition of alcoholism
means the unrecovered alcoholic's tendency is to drink. So when I
decided to quit, did nothing else to recover, and subsequently drank
again, I didn't fail so much as learn.

Does a heart patient "fail" when he suffers another heart attack? No.
But he may have "failed to do" what he needed to do to help prevent
that attack. Just like a heart patient needs to learn he can't mess
around with cholesterol, an alcoholic needs to learn he can't mess
around with booze.

>Maybe you know everything about this. But I don't think so.

I need to know sod all other than the actions I need to take to keep
me sober. That's what makes the difference - those who recover are
those who stop trying to talk or think themselves sober, and start the
doing.

>I have other psychological problems which I will need to deal
>with. They go beyond the booze problems.

Unless you quit drinking for a substantial period of time, how do you
know they go beyond booze problems? You say it takes about 3 weeks of
not drinking for the problems to kick in, but that's not even long
enough for the alcohol to have left the body.

>Quitting drinking will not be enough for me. For me.

It is not enough for any alcoholic. That's what makes them
"alcoholic" rather than "alcohol abusers".

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:28:23 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>I don't think anybody "just happens to wander in" to this
>newsgroup. Or into an AA meeting, or into a detox program, or
>into a shrink's office.

Well, some unknowingly cross-post from another forum, but I get the
gist. Actually, there are many people who are pushed into AA
meetings, detox programs and shrinks' offices against their will.

Most people new to AA do not want to hear the message "don't drink".
If I could successfully "not drink" I'd have had no need for recovery.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:33:26 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> >Quitting drinking will not be enough for me. For me.
>
> It is not enough for any alcoholic. That's what makes them
> "alcoholic" rather than "alcohol abusers".

That was good post.

I will be redundant again. I can quit drinking. I can get thru
the physical withdrawal process.

What I can't seem to do is to stay quit. I go nuts. Insane.
Berserk.

Maybe that's an excuse. I will discuss that with my shrink. I
have done that already, but I will do it again.

[rosie read and post]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

>
> ....................The antagonistic posts are not good. For
every one person --
> like me -- who is willing to endure them, there are probably 100
> who are not. It makes no sense. I appreciate those who don't
> do that.


AGREED!
some of them use email addy's though!

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Eoawb.60095$Vu6.21859@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>
> >
> > ....................The antagonistic posts are not good. For
> every one person --
> > like me -- who is willing to endure them, there are probably 100
> > who are not. It makes no sense. I appreciate those who don't
> > do that.
>
>
> AGREED!

hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <2s12svgar8ue6aeavl55j19fn62ahfp9hv@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:33:26 GMT, Blue Moon
><mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]
>
>> >Quitting drinking will not be enough for me. For me.
>>
>> It is not enough for any alcoholic. That's what makes them
>> "alcoholic" rather than "alcohol abusers".
>
>That was good post.
>
>I will be redundant again. I can quit drinking. I can get thru
>the physical withdrawal process.
>
>What I can't seem to do is to stay quit. I go nuts. Insane.
>Berserk.
>
>Maybe that's an excuse. I will discuss that with my shrink. I
>have done that already, but I will do it again.
>
I suggest some form of ongoing programme. The one my shrink sent me to
is called a 'relapse prevention' group. Sounds like that would fit your
bill so why not suggest that to your shrink?
--
Jonathan Bratt

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 18:12:49 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:]

> Well, some unknowingly cross-post from another forum, but I get the
> gist. Actually, there are many people who are pushed into AA
> meetings, detox programs and shrinks' offices against their will.

I know that one of the people at my detox program was there only
because he was intentionally trying to create a record that
might do him some good with a judge. He was quite open about
that.

The others -- 20 or so -- were all there because they/we wanted
to be there. We had sought it out.

Ironically, the one who was just trying to create the record was
far and away the most constructive person in there. He should
work there. I have told him this. I think it would take him
doing something like that to get him straight. (He's a
druggie.)

He's looking at some jail time and the loss of his marriage.
He's already lost his job and his driver's license.

If anyone from the outside thinks this is fun, they aren't too
well acquianted with it.

[The Other Harry]

[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:31:09 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> Have you been keeping the journal she asked you to ?

Not really doing a very good job of that. I have in my mind,
but I have only made one actual entry.

I'll need to play a little catch-up tomorrow. That's okay.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:akv2svgnc956gjfhb60fpdr0f7mbdlsslj@4ax.com...
> [On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:31:09 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > Have you been keeping the journal she asked you to ?
>
> Not really doing a very good job of that. I have in my mind,
> but I have only made one actual entry.
>
> I'll need to play a little catch-up tomorrow. That's okay.

Just so long as you don't let Nancy think that you've been keeping it
every day :^).

Remember:

"It's the lies we tell ourselves that do the most damage"......Harry

Best regards

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <akv2svgnc956gjfhb60fpdr0f7mbdlsslj@4ax.com>, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> writes
>[On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 11:31:09 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
>wrote:]
>
>> Have you been keeping the journal she asked you to ?
>
>Not really doing a very good job of that. I have in my mind,
>but I have only made one actual entry.
>
>I'll need to play a little catch-up tomorrow. That's okay.

'Fraid it's not. The whole point of keeping the journal is that you
don't have to rely on memory - which can be rather selective. It really
is essential that you keep it on a daily basis if it is to be of any
use.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[rosie read and post]

> In message <akv2svgnc956gjfhb60fpdr0f7mbdlsslj@4ax.com>, The Other
Harry
> >
> >Not really doing a very good job of that. I have in my mind,
> >but I have only made one actual entry.
> >
> >I'll need to play a little catch-up tomorrow. That's okay.


harry,
i have a few clients who don't/won't keep a journal as requested,
and upon investigation it is almost always because they don't know
how.

try this:

date the top of the page
then during the day just jot down a note about how your feeling.

no more, no less......................you WILL get the hang of it!

if you like and respect your therapist, TRUST that he/she knows
what he/she's doing when your asked to keep a journal!




example:

11-24-03
feeling confused, and don't want to write about it!

even that is acceptable!

[Moonraker]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1jpwb.71246$Eq1.48366@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> harry,
> i have a few clients who don't/won't keep a journal as requested,
> and upon investigation it is almost always because they don't know
> how.
>
> try this:
>
> date the top of the page
> then during the day just jot down a note about how your feeling.
>
> no more, no less......................you WILL get the hang of it!

Geeezus. You must really attract a bunch on intellectually challenged
people.

This is a pencil.

This is a notebook.

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_Vvwb.1782$I7.1241@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1jpwb.71246$Eq1.48366@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > harry,
> > i have a few clients who don't/won't keep a journal as requested,
> > and upon investigation it is almost always because they don't know
> > how.
> >
> > try this:
> >
> > date the top of the page
> > then during the day just jot down a note about how your feeling.
> >
> > no more, no less......................you WILL get the hang of it!
>
> Geeezus. You must really attract a bunch on intellectually challenged
> people.
>
> This is a pencil.
>
> This is a notebook.
>
>

What I saw as ironic is the exemplary instruction you snipped, on how to
procrastinate procrastination that indisputably enables the procrastination
of actual sobriety.

"11-24-03
feeling confused, and don't want to write about it!"

No wonder she will never be recovered.

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:01:02 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> Geeezus. You must really attract a bunch on intellectually challenged
> people.
>
> This is a pencil.
>
> This is a notebook.

You obviously don't understand. Rosie made a good & valid point
there.

If someone like me makes a "journal entry", by default it is
about 300 pages long. Therefore I don't do it.

This is not an unusual behavior for an alcoholic. It relates to
the perfectionism, which is very common and which is also
dysfunctional.

It is the reason why I can't have just one drink. I tend to
either do things to excess or I don't do them at all.

This is exactly here where my psychiatrist and I are at the
moment -- after two appointments. Like Rosie, she wants me to
try to get out of that loop. I do not consider that to be bad
advice.

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:44:55 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> It didn't have anything to do with you. So, you can go back to your
> obsession about yourself.
>
> Oh, BTW... your observations about alcoholic behavior are pretty much
> redundant. Given that 98% of the folks who post here are alcoholic, we
> all know first hand about the behavior(s). You are not shedding any new
> light on the subject.

You're certainly a nice person to talk with.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:t655svccf0iks0vub3kg5m6condlqdn1op@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:01:02 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > Geeezus. You must really attract a bunch on intellectually challenged
> > people.
> >
> > This is a pencil.
> >
> > This is a notebook.
>
> You obviously don't understand. Rosie made a good & valid point
> there.
>
> If someone like me makes a "journal entry", by default it is
> about 300 pages long. Therefore I don't do it.
>
> This is not an unusual behavior for an alcoholic. It relates to
> the perfectionism, which is very common and which is also
> dysfunctional.
>
> It is the reason why I can't have just one drink. I tend to
> either do things to excess or I don't do them at all.
>
> This is exactly here where my psychiatrist and I are at the
> moment -- after two appointments. Like Rosie, she wants me to
> try to get out of that loop. I do not consider that to be bad
> advice.
>

No, Harry. I understand perfectly.

RRAP's comment was that her "clients" "don't or won't journal and upon
investigation it is almost always because they don't know how."

My sarcastic comment was to the effect that she attracts those who can't
read and write, because anyone with a lick of sense would run, not walk,
away from that fruit-loop.

It didn't have anything to do with you. So, you can go back to your
obsession about yourself.

Oh, BTW... your observations about alcoholic behavior are pretty much
redundant. Given that 98% of the folks who post here are alcoholic, we
all know first hand about the behavior(s). You are not shedding any new
light on the subject.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ae95svkl0lp56r4526vokce218l67p2jsn@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:44:55 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > It didn't have anything to do with you. So, you can go back to
your
> > obsession about yourself.
> >
> > Oh, BTW... your observations about alcoholic behavior are pretty
much
> > redundant. Given that 98% of the folks who post here are
alcoholic, we
> > all know first hand about the behavior(s). You are not shedding
any new
> > light on the subject.
>
> You're certainly a nice person to talk with.

I'm curious to know whether you thought Moonraker spoke the truth ?

JB

[rosie read and post]

>
> This is exactly here where my psychiatrist and I are at the
> moment -- after two appointments. Like Rosie, she wants me to
> try to get out of that loop. I do not consider that to be bad
> advice.
>

your right about "getting out of the loop" with old habits, KNOWING
that you have a perfectionism streak is half the battle harry!

arguing with moony is a waste of time, and you NEVER have to defend
me to him!
(he'll probably just go take his sleeping pills and ignore you
anyway!)

keep trying to do short entries daily...........it takes some
practice for folks like us!
:)

[rosie read and post]

> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:44:55 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > It didn't have anything to do with you. So, you can go back to
your
> > obsession about yourself.................
( snipped lots of blah, blah, blah)



> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ae95svkl0lp56r4526vokce218l67p2jsn@4ax.com...
> You're certainly a nice person to talk with.


ROTFLMAO!
you got that right!
;)

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:01:54 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> I'm curious to know whether you thought Moonraker spoke the truth ?

I think so.

I am just a relative newbie to this, and do not consider
cooments like that to be either helpful or encouraging. For
someone who has been drinking for 35 years, quitting doesn't
come all that easy.

There is way too much hostility in this group. You are not
among that, but there is still too much.

Nonetheless, Moon spoke the truth. I can go with that.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:gtd5sv04s2n990eisu4f6gvffv7b115khc@4ax.com...
> [On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:01:54 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > I'm curious to know whether you thought Moonraker spoke the truth ?
>
> I think so.
>
> I am just a relative newbie to this, and do not consider
> cooments like that to be either helpful or encouraging. For
> someone who has been drinking for 35 years, quitting doesn't
> come all that easy.

Just one more thing, Harry. I just came home from a meeting where a friend
celebrated 15 years of sobriety. He's a Native American (Sioux, I think).
He tells it like it is. It is YOUR responsibility to not drink. Not the AA
groups', not a shrink's, not a detox center's, not an addictionologist's.
YOURS. Plain and simple. If you want mollycoddling and pity parties, take
them somewhere else, cause from this guy you'll hear the plain, unvarnished
truth.
>
> There is way too much hostility in this group. You are not
> among that, but there is still too much.


Don't confuse hostility with disgust over a few morons who confuse their
drug-dazed existence with real recovery.
>
> Nonetheless, Moon spoke the truth. I can go with that.

;>)

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ae95svkl0lp56r4526vokce218l67p2jsn@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 19:44:55 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > It didn't have anything to do with you. So, you can go back to your
> > obsession about yourself.
> >
> > Oh, BTW... your observations about alcoholic behavior are pretty much
> > redundant. Given that 98% of the folks who post here are alcoholic,
we
> > all know first hand about the behavior(s). You are not shedding any
new
> > light on the subject.
>
> You're certainly a nice person to talk with.

Thank you. ;>)

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:08:40 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> Don't confuse hostility with disgust over a few morons who confuse their
> drug-dazed existence with real recovery.

That was another nice comment.

[Moonraker]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1jpwb.71246$Eq1.48366@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...


> i have a few clients who don't/won't keep a journal as requested,
> and upon investigation it is almost always because they don't know
> how.

What license is it, again, that you have that permits this counselling
practice?

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:34:42 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> What license is it, again, that you have that permits this counselling
> practice?

So far, Rosie's advice has been better than yours. By a large
margin.

Now what I need to think about is getting down to Rosarito Beach
in Mexico. The RB Hotel is supposed to be very nice, but there
might be someplace smaller, nicer, and less expensive.

I refer to Rosarito Beach as "Rosie", so there is some overlap.

I imagine one can get pretty drunk down there. The lobsters are
apparently also pretty good.

We will find out.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:12i5svo9jg7dpe1ohf4jmkqvb7mk220fbp@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:08:40 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > Don't confuse hostility with disgust over a few morons who confuse their
> > drug-dazed existence with real recovery.
>
> That was another nice comment.

It does have a nice ring to it, eh? ;>)

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:v7j5svk1igkohj84l84og1ajvlgh0ofgd7@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:34:42 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > What license is it, again, that you have that permits this counselling
> > practice?
>
> So far, Rosie's advice has been better than yours. By a large
> margin.

How the fuck would you know, anyhow? You haven't taken a single shred of
advice from ANYBODY since you pitched your tent here and began your long,
plaintaitve pity party. If you believe any word of advice from that
charlatan who alleges that she's a counselor, Heaven help you, brother.
Yer gonna need it.

[The Other Harry]

[On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:20:25 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> How the fuck would you know, anyhow? You haven't taken a single shred of
> advice from ANYBODY since you pitched your tent here and began your long,
> plaintaitve pity party. If you believe any word of advice from that
> charlatan who alleges that she's a counselor, Heaven help you, brother.
> Yer gonna need it.

I'm gonna need it.

I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.

Things need to get a bit better. Soon.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2mm5sv86nolv78a9fv7segratv3f2e2vc9@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:20:25 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > How the fuck would you know, anyhow? You haven't taken a single shred
of
> > advice from ANYBODY since you pitched your tent here and began your
long,
> > plaintaitve pity party. If you believe any word of advice from that
> > charlatan who alleges that she's a counselor, Heaven help you, brother.
> > Yer gonna need it.
>
> I'm gonna need it.
>
> I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
> As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
>
> Things need to get a bit better. Soon.

Earlier you said you drank for 35 years. Did you really expect that you'd
get well in 2 or 3 weeks? Did you think it would be easy? What were you
expecting, anyway?

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2mm5sv86nolv78a9fv7segratv3f2e2vc9@4ax.com...
> [On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:20:25 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > How the fuck would you know, anyhow? You haven't taken a single shred
of
> > advice from ANYBODY since you pitched your tent here and began your
long,
> > plaintaitve pity party. If you believe any word of advice from that
> > charlatan who alleges that she's a counselor, Heaven help you, brother.
> > Yer gonna need it.
>
> I'm gonna need it.
>
> I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
> As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
>
> Things need to get a bit better. Soon.

Anyone visualise Harry at Lourdes?

Standing outside the wimmens dressing area checking out the tits, then
sending a postcard http://blank.org/link/?q=1069738515
as proof he really tried. Never even wets his feet before returning home,
wringing his hands and whinging that he is a unique and object failure;
because even Lourdes could not heal him!



Bob the mongrel mugger.

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:35:20 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>[On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:20:25 -0500, "Moonraker"
><fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
>> How the fuck would you know, anyhow? You haven't taken a single shred of
>> advice from ANYBODY since you pitched your tent here and began your long,
>> plaintaitve pity party. If you believe any word of advice from that
>> charlatan who alleges that she's a counselor, Heaven help you, brother.
>> Yer gonna need it.
>
>I'm gonna need it.
>
>I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
>As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.

If you went to a few AA meetings expecting some miracle without
effort, I'm not at all surprised.

--
Blue Moon

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 00:34:29 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> Earlier you said you drank for 35 years. Did you really expect that you'd
> get well in 2 or 3 weeks? Did you think it would be easy? What were you
> expecting, anyway?

I guess I thought it would be easier. Just set down the bottle.
Something like that.

For me -- and it is always "for me" -- quitting drinking has
been much more difficult than I expected it to be. Much more.

I think my problem is that I have been using the booze to sedate
myself for some other problem. Depression, maybe. I don't
know. Anxiety?

I do think that quitting drinking will not be enough. I am
going to take some work that goes past that. Shrink work. It
could take some med's.

We will get there.

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1jpwb.71246$Eq1.48366@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > In message <akv2svgnc956gjfhb60fpdr0f7mbdlsslj@4ax.com>, The Other
> Harry
> > >
> > >Not really doing a very good job of that. I have in my mind,
> > >but I have only made one actual entry.
>snip>

> harry,
> i have a few clients who don't/won't keep a journal as requested,
> and upon investigation it is almost always because they don't know
> how.

<snip>

From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (15th June 2003)

"Since I've started keeping an (often very introspective) daily
journal, I have increasingly come to believe that -- for me, anyway --
alcoholism is not a stand-alone disease.

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8af35490a24f443582eb3262383209d7@news.teranew s.com...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:35:20 -0500, The Other Harry
> <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

<snip>
> >I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
> >As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
>
> If you went to a few AA meetings expecting some miracle without
> effort, I'm not at all surprised.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry ditched
him ? :^))

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:22:41 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry ditched
> him ? :^))

Did not work.

The way I understand things, a sponsor is supposed to help you
work the steps. That would would be nice.

I got zip. My shrink works better. She costs a litle more, but
she at least pays attention. He did not.

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:18:24 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> From: Harry (hc.me@ix.netcom.com (15th June 2003)
>
> "Since I've started keeping an (often very introspective) daily
> journal, I have increasingly come to believe that -- for me, anyway --
> alcoholism is not a stand-alone disease.

I have been keeping a journal, but it is not something I would
ever show to anyone.

I have made clear to my daughter that if I die, the computer
goes in the trash. It's pretty well locked up as it is, but it
still goes to the dump.

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bpv456$knb$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8af35490a24f443582eb3262383209d7@news.teranew s.com...
> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:35:20 -0500, The Other Harry
> > <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > >I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
> > >As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
> >
> > If you went to a few AA meetings expecting some miracle without
> > effort, I'm not at all surprised.
> >
> > --
> > Blue Moon
>
> At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry ditched
> him ? :^))
>
> JB
>
>

LOL As you can see, some AA Sponsors have an illuminating history here.
However, I suggest you don't look unless you have enough time and
inclination to scan the entire thread (app 46 posts).

http://blank.org/link/?q=1069751042

Bob

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:22:41 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry ditched
> him ? :^))

It is somewhat like the self-righteous people who often post
here. They already know everything. They aren't too interested
in helping anyone. So talking with them is a complete waste of
time. I have many other ways to waste my time.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:pm56svgsgli34kl4q3cdciq6cbhr3kh7tp@4ax.com...
> [On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 08:22:41 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry
ditched
> > him ? :^))
>
> Did not work.

LOL I *knew* that would be your answer.
>
> I got zip. My shrink works better. She costs a litle more, but
> she at least pays attention. He did not.

And when she fails to get your mind and drinking problem sorted out,
you will blame her for your failings. Right ? :^))

JB

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpv6jc$1qu8he$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bpv456$knb$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:8af35490a24f443582eb3262383209d7@news.teranew s.com...
> > > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:35:20 -0500, The Other Harry
> > > <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > > >I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the
psychiatrist.
> > > >As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
> > >
> > > If you went to a few AA meetings expecting some miracle without
> > > effort, I'm not at all surprised.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Blue Moon
> >
> > At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry
ditched
> > him ? :^))
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
> LOL As you can see, some AA Sponsors have an illuminating history
here.
> However, I suggest you don't look unless you have enough time and
> inclination to scan the entire thread (app 46 posts).
>
> http://blank.org/link/?q=1069751042
>
> Bob

Hi,

I've found time to read the first three posts. FWIW, I think Harry's
decision to ditch his Sponsor was due to Harry being unable to cope
with not drinking and his desire to find a painfree, quick-fix
solution to *all* the problems he thinks he has.

Yours

JB

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:08:00 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> And when she fails to get your mind and drinking problem sorted out,
> you will blame her for your failings. Right ? :^)

Damn right.

But as much as I joke around, please know that I am very
serious. I need to be. I am going to either quit or die within
the next few months. There is no third choice. The jokes are
not jokes.

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bpvbl9$bmk$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bpv6jc$1qu8he$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bpv456$knb$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8af35490a24f443582eb3262383209d7@news.teranew s.com...
> > > > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:35:20 -0500, The Other Harry
> > > > <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > >I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the
> psychiatrist.
> > > > >As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
> > > >
> > > > If you went to a few AA meetings expecting some miracle without
> > > > effort, I'm not at all surprised.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Blue Moon
> > >
> > > At one time Harry also had a Sponsor :^)) I wonder why Harry
> ditched
> > > him ? :^))
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > >
> >
> > LOL As you can see, some AA Sponsors have an illuminating history
> here.
> > However, I suggest you don't look unless you have enough time and
> > inclination to scan the entire thread (app 46 posts).
> >
> > http://blank.org/link/?q=1069751042
> >
> > Bob
>
> Hi,
>
> I've found time to read the first three posts. FWIW, I think Harry's
> decision to ditch his Sponsor was due to Harry being unable to cope
> with not drinking and his desire to find a painfree, quick-fix
> solution to *all* the problems he thinks he has.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
>

I do urge you to at least read the 10th post, imo, to any reasonable reader,
it should completely eliminate one person from the "XXX's" heterophobic
counting.

Bob

[Kai]

Robert McGregor wrote:

>
> I do urge you to at least read the 10th post, imo, to any reasonable reader,
> it should completely eliminate one person from the "XXX's" heterophobic
> counting.

I read it. Obviously, if I was to say in this post I love Black
People, then any further post of mine filled with clearly racist
remarks would then be overlooked, because I've got this track record
of non-racist posts in this thread in the past.

Kai

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ksb6sv0kt2aqrs9vv4n17diqdblrmltrcd@4ax.com...
> [On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:08:00 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> wrote:]
>
> > And when she fails to get your mind and drinking problem sorted
out,
> > you will blame her for your failings. Right ? :^)
>
> Damn right.
>
> But as much as I joke around, please know that I am very
> serious. I need to be. I am going to either quit or die within
> the next few months. There is no third choice. The jokes are
> not jokes.

Harry,

".................... actions speak louder than words". Fran
Lebowitz

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"Kai" <soberon@nospamo.luukku.com> wrote in message
news:bpvdp8$p1t$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> Robert McGregor wrote:
>
> >
> > I do urge you to at least read the 10th post, imo, to any reasonable
reader,
> > it should completely eliminate one person from the "XXX's" heterophobic
> > counting.
>
> I read it. Obviously, if I was to say in this post I love Black
> People, then any further post of mine filled with clearly racist
> remarks would then be overlooked, because I've got this track record
> of non-racist posts in this thread in the past.
>
> Kai
>

That post was directed to "reasonable" readers.

Bob

[rosie read and post]

>
> I refer to Rosarito Beach as "Rosie", so there is some overlap.
>


"A GOD THING"?

:)

harry,
do you intend to get drunk down there?

[rosie read and post]

> I have gone to the detox, the AA meetings, and the psychiatrist.
> As of now, I am a failure. It really frustrates me.
>
> Things need to get a bit better. Soon.


harry,
you are NOT a failure.................each and EVERY alcoholic i
know, has tried "everything" before they finally "surrendered",
understood that drinking/drugging was not an option.
"putting the plug in the jug and changing our lives is a hard
proposition" and most have "quit" or "tried to control" many times!

this helped me:

Chapter 3
More About Alcoholism
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No
person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his
fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers
have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could
drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will
control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every
abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.
Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that
we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion
that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be
smashed.

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control
our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control.
All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such
intervals usually brief were inevitably followed by still less
control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible
demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our
type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable
period we get worse, never better.



thinking and praying for you and all the still suffering alcoholics!

rosie

[rosie read and post]

> I think my problem is that I have been using the booze to sedate
> myself for some other problem. Depression, maybe. I don't
> know. Anxiety?
>


VERY common!
there is a HUGE population of depressives in the alcoholic
community, and both diseases must be treated.

some depression (in my case) is situational and lessens with
sobriety, having a sponsor, working the steps, and doing service.

chemical imbalance (also in my case) needs to be diagnosed and then
treated with medication.

talk therapy is also very important during this period of time, and
i hope you will find and be able to work with a therapist who
understands your addiction.

rosie

[rosie read and post]

>
> Did not work.
>
> The way I understand things, a sponsor is supposed to help you
> work the steps. That would would be nice.
>
> I got zip.


keep looking, the "perfect" match is out there!
rosie

[rosie read and post]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ksb6sv0kt2aqrs9vv4n17diqdblrmltrcd@4ax.com... >
> ..................But as much as I joke around, please know that I
am very
> serious. I need to be. I am going to either quit or die within
> the next few months. There is no third choice. The jokes are
> not jokes.


harry read this again:

Chapter 3
More About Alcoholism
Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No
person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his
fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers
have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could
drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will
control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every
abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing.
Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.
We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that
we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion
that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be
smashed.

We alcoholics are men and women who have lost the ability to control
our drinking. We know that no real alcoholic ever recovers control.
All of us felt at times that we were regaining control, but such
intervals usually brief were inevitably followed by still less
control, which led in time to pitiful and incomprehensible
demoralization. We are convinced to a man that alcoholics of our
type are in the grip of a progressive illness. Over any considerable
period we get worse, never better.

[rosie read and post]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:cg76sv0090jiksp0tr571hv90llt3s233t@4ax.com...

> It is somewhat like the self-righteous people who often post
> here. They already know everything. They aren't too interested
> in helping anyone. So talking with them is a complete waste of
> time. I have many other ways to waste my time.


harry,
if AA is the way you chose to recover, then i suggest that you keep
going, and just watch and listen..............be open, you will
"find" the perfect sponsor for you.
i promise!

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aqIwb.76812$Eq1.29220@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >
> > Did not work.
> >
> > The way I understand things, a sponsor is supposed to help you
> > work the steps. That would would be nice.
> >
> > I got zip.
>
>
> keep looking, the "perfect" match is out there!
> rosie
>
>

The old chook has gone from progress to perfection, in one fowl sweep;-)

Bob;-)

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 12:53:56 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]

> do you intend to get drunk down there?

You bet. Marguerittas, made with fresh lime. One pitcher at a
time.

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:07:48 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]

> harry read this again:
>
> Chapter 3...

My dear, that was the first chapter I read. I don't always
start at the beginning. I usually don't.

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:09:14 GMT, "rosie read and post"
<readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote:]

> if AA is the way you chose to recover, then i suggest that you keep
> going, and just watch and listen..............be open, you will
> "find" the perfect sponsor for you.
> i promise!

Could be.

For now, I will remain focused on my shrink. She is working out
pretty well, and I can't do too many things at one time.

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 23:10:25 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:]

> The old chook has gone from progress to perfection, in one fowl sweep;-)

Bob, why be such a jerk? I really don't get it.

I have been lurking and posting here for about six months now,
and I have never once seen Rosie or anyone else make an attack
on you. But you attack people constantly.

If you are not under the care of a shrink, I think you need to
be. You are not sober.

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:aqIwb.76812$Eq1.29220@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >
> > Did not work.
> >
> > The way I understand things, a sponsor is supposed to help you
> > work the steps. That would would be nice.
> >
> > I got zip.
>
>
> keep looking, the "perfect" match is out there!
> rosie

Given that Harry has come in for a lot of stick on this NG, do you
think he might benefit from talking to you, with whom he appears to
get on well, via private emails ?

Yours

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bpvn7q$4rg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:aqIwb.76812$Eq1.29220@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > >
> > > Did not work.
> > >
> > > The way I understand things, a sponsor is supposed to help you
> > > work the steps. That would would be nice.
> > >
> > > I got zip.
> >
> >
> > keep looking, the "perfect" match is out there!
> > rosie
>
> Given that Harry has come in for a lot of stick on this NG, do you
> think he might benefit from talking to you, with whom he appears to
> get on well, via private emails ?
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
>

hahahahaha what an original thought! Why didn't rosie think of that. Must be
a HP thing.

Bob;-)

[Moonraker]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpvnj9$1s0soa$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bpvn7q$4rg$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:aqIwb.76812$Eq1.29220@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Did not work.
> > > >
> > > > The way I understand things, a sponsor is supposed to help you
> > > > work the steps. That would would be nice.
> > > >
> > > > I got zip.
> > >
> > >
> > > keep looking, the "perfect" match is out there!
> > > rosie
> >
> > Given that Harry has come in for a lot of stick on this NG, do you
> > think he might benefit from talking to you, with whom he appears to
> > get on well, via private emails ?
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
> hahahahaha what an original thought! Why didn't rosie think of that. Must
be
> a HP thing.
>
> Bob;-)
>
>

Personally, I'd be willing to contribute a few $USD to a fund to fly Harry
to Milwaukee so that he could have the benefit of Rosies' personal attention
in her private practice. I mean, I'm really interested in seeing this guy
get sober, and apparently he and RRAP have this mutual attraction. What
do you guys think? Hell, Harry wouldn't have to have any insurance, or
anything like that because Rosie cares so much for the still suffering
alcoholic that she'd work for free on this one. So, how about it, RRAP?
Can you fit 'ol Harry into your counseling schedule for some intense
one-on-one work?

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:29:12 -0500, "Moonraker"
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]

> So, how about it, RRAP?
> Can you fit 'ol Harry into your counseling schedule for some intense
> one-on-one work?

I know you are being sarcastic, but whatever counseling program
Rosie has would probably work better for me than any one you
could run.

[The Other Harry]

[On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 13:48:24 -0000, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:]

> Given that Harry has come in for a lot of stick on this NG, do you
> think he might benefit from talking to you, with whom he appears to
> get on well, via private emails ?

I'll take that. That's up to her.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2np6svghjfaf2p4p8518nabrkv69j094i1@4ax.com...
> [On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:29:12 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > So, how about it, RRAP?
> > Can you fit 'ol Harry into your counseling schedule for some
intense
> > one-on-one work?
>
> I know you are being sarcastic, but whatever counseling program
> Rosie has would probably work better for me than any one you
> could run.

Hi Harry,

FWIW, Rosie's private practice caters for those: "who have difficulty
staying sober, after attendance in treatments and/or recovery
programs, and have run out of funds/insurance to get help" (From:
rosie readandpost (readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com) 1st May 2003) FWIW, I
don't know what qualifications she has to practice as a drugs and
alcohol counsellor. If she has any, I think it's likely that she has
none that are recognised by any official Board.

Yours

JB

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:2np6svghjfaf2p4p8518nabrkv69j094i1@4ax.com...
> [On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:29:12 -0500, "Moonraker"
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:]
>
> > So, how about it, RRAP?
> > Can you fit 'ol Harry into your counseling schedule for some intense
> > one-on-one work?
>
> I know you are being sarcastic, but whatever