Why are you all awake. anyway?

[The Other Harry]

It is about 4:30 on the East Coast. You should all be asleep.

I know why I am awake, but I don't know why you are.

[JB]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:5hdmrv89bh6lhgblrh0t1ls73887pabisu@4ax.com...
> It is about 4:30 on the East Coast. You should all be asleep.
>
> I know why I am awake, but I don't know why you are.

It's 10.20 am. If my husband, who's a tetraplegic, feels well enough
to start getting up soon, I should have him settled just in time to be
able to get to an AA meeting at lunchtime.

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:5hdmrv89bh6lhgblrh0t1ls73887pabisu@4ax.com...
> It is about 4:30 on the East Coast. You should all be asleep.
>
> I know why I am awake, but I don't know why you are.

Jeez, with mention here of heterophobia, and homophobia, have we now got
xenophobia in the mix?

Bob

[Shawster]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:5hdmrv89bh6lhgblrh0t1ls73887pabisu@4ax.com...
> It is about 4:30 on the East Coast. You should all be asleep.
>
> I know why I am awake, but I don't know why you are.

because, you self centered _______ not everyone lives on the east coast.


>

[Xanadu]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 04:23:39 -0500, The Other Harry wrote:

> It is about 4:30 on the East Coast. You should all be asleep.
>
> I know why I am awake, but I don't know why you are.

(I'm a bit west of Philly)

I woke up around 1:30 and couldn't get back to sleep until 4:00 or 4:30.
I'm still having some problems sleeping since drying out, but it's
getting noticeably better. The first week or two, I didn't sleep more than
2 or so hours a night. ugh...

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:16:08 GMT, "Shawster"
<shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:]

> because, you [are} self centered

I am *very* self centered these days. I don't apologize for
that. I am essentially turning myself inside out with dealing my
drinking problem.

At where I am, I have to be self centered. I am normally not
that way, but I have to be right now.

There may be better ways -- ways to get outside of myself -- but
as of now I am way inside of myself.

[The Other Harry]

[On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:18:34 -0500, Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com>
wrote:]

> I woke up around 1:30 and couldn't get back to sleep until 4:00 or 4:30.
> I'm still having some problems sleeping since drying out, but it's
> getting noticeably better. The first week or two, I didn't sleep more than
> 2 or so hours a night. ugh..

Like I've mentioned in other posts, the sleep problems may go on
for years. So I'm told.

I don't find that amusing.

For me, the sleep problem interacts with the mental problems. I
can stay awake all night long and think about everything I have
ever done that was the least bit wrong.

That does not help me quit drinking.

[Xanadu]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:22:41 -0500, The Other Harry wrote:

> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:18:34 -0500, Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com>
> wrote:]
>
>> I woke up around 1:30 and couldn't get back to sleep until 4:00 or 4:30.
>> I'm still having some problems sleeping since drying out, but it's
>> getting noticeably better. The first week or two, I didn't sleep more than
>> 2 or so hours a night. ugh..
>
> Like I've mentioned in other posts, the sleep problems may go on
> for years. So I'm told.
>
> I don't find that amusing.
>
> For me, the sleep problem interacts with the mental problems. I
> can stay awake all night long and think about everything I have
> ever done that was the least bit wrong.
>
> That does not help me quit drinking.


Nor will it. I'm sure I can speak for just about anyone here, or at least
myself, We've all been there. It's the decision that we make in the
morning that matters. Do we heed our own thoughts, or do we sit and stare
at our watches waiting for the booze store to open?

I, for one, stopped staring at my watch and realized that the person in my
head (the person I used to be) was trying like hell to talk with teh
person I'd become. Try to that person to get off the sauce. I've spent
plenty of days standing in front of the booze store waiting for the clerks
to unlock the door...

[Shawster]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:tu0nrvsvmp7lr41hq9j7p61dd84fe66dvd@4ax.com...
> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:16:08 GMT, "Shawster"
> <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:]
>
> > because, you [are} self centered
>
> I am *very* self centered these days. I don't apologize for
> that. I am essentially turning myself inside out with dealing my
> drinking problem.
>
> At where I am, I have to be self centered. I am normally not
> that way, but I have to be right now.
>
> There may be better ways -- ways to get outside of myself -- but
> as of now I am way inside of myself.

as long as you believe that, you will remain drunk.

you filled in the wrong blank, BTW
>

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:06:33 -0500, The Other Harry
<hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>At where I am, I have to be self centered. I am normally not
>that way, but I have to be right now.

Really? Er... does it work?

--
Blue Moon

[Xanadu]

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 23:33:55 +0000, Shawster wrote:


> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:tu0nrvsvmp7lr41hq9j7p61dd84fe66dvd@4ax.com...
>> [On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:16:08 GMT, "Shawster"
>> <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:]
>>
>> > because, you [are} self centered
>>
>> I am *very* self centered these days. I don't apologize for that. I
>> am essentially turning myself inside out with dealing my drinking
>> problem.
>>
>> At where I am, I have to be self centered. I am normally not that way,
>> but I have to be right now.
>>
>> There may be better ways -- ways to get outside of myself -- but as of
>> now I am way inside of myself.
>
> as long as you believe that, you will remain drunk.
>
> you filled in the wrong blank, BTW
>>
>>
>>
Harry:

I have to agree 100% hand's down with Shawster on this. I understand
where you're (Harry) are coming from:

"I need to think about me for a change, and not about [insert something
here]."

Yes, you are right, but, think of this (which I think is what Shawster was
getting at): us alcoholics *ARE* isolated. Isolated from all the life
around us. I'm only now *truly* realizing this. I've got one hell of a
DVD collection because if I wasn't at the bar, I was sitting at home with
a bottle in one hand and my DVD remote in the other. I spent *TOO* much
time "inside myself" (and inside a bottle...).

This is where the AA philosophy comes in (I think, anyway). You get
OUTSIDE yourself, open up, talk, etc. If you hit Google you'll see some
of my first posts here from late spring / early summer (I think, it was
somewhere around there). I was talking with a couple people I really
trust at the job I got laid off from. It felt SO damn good to finally get
it off my chest and talk with someone about it. None of the people I
could talk to really knew anything about alcoholism, so they just kinda
put up with my rants and helped when they could. I then found this group
(I hadn't worked up the balls to actually go to an AA meeting...). I felt
really good to be able to talk with people that understand the insanity
of alcoholism. I'm sure people were rather annoyed at some of my rants
especially since I was still drinking (and sometimes half drunk) when
posting here, thus I haven't posted all that much even now that I'm dry
(but I'm making a bit of a "come back" I guess one could say).

Anyway, the point is, just as Shawster said, "as long as you believe that,
you will remain drunk." Get up off your ass and just do it. Really. I
wish I could tell you that's it's a walk in the park, I wish I could tell
you that it's easy. It's not. I've quit a lot of drugs over the years,
but this alcohol thing really has kicked my ass. It'll really suck for a
few weeks, but it'll pass. Really.

M.

[Barely Sober]

Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.11.20.00.18.45.220444@inorbit.com>...

>
> Anyway, the point is, just as Shawster said, "as long as you believe that,
> you will remain drunk." Get up off your ass and just do it. Really. I
> wish I could tell you that's it's a walk in the park, I wish I could tell
> you that it's easy. It's not. I've quit a lot of drugs over the years,
> but this alcohol thing really has kicked my ass. It'll really suck for a
> few weeks, but it'll pass. Really.
>

Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of presenting
a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking, "it"
may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck. I'm about a month
from my second birthday after having been a raging alcoholic for 12
years. These last two years of sobriety, for me, have been horrible.
NOTHING has gotten better, except that I've lost my beer belly. I
used alcohol to medicate myself through life's unpleasantries and
annoyances...sober, I get the "joy" of experiencing all these
unpleasantries and annoyances with a clarity that, frankly, I could do
without. I'd been asked before I quit drinking if I "wanted to be
sober"...my answer then is the same as it is now - NO. I don't "want"
to be sober. Never have. Never will. What I "want" is that feeling
that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
miss that feeling every day. I had to quit because alcohol was
killing my body. I faced this fact, and the fact that my fear of
dying a painful, miserable death due to alcohol exceeded, only
slightly, my desire to drink. But to be honest, I STILL miss drinking
and I still want to drink. EVERY DAY. Truth be told, I find the more
time I've been sober, the stronger my desire to drink again. The
desire for me has NEVER passed, and I doubt it ever will. I cringe
when I see people making statements like "it'll pass". For a lot of
us, it never has, and never will.

B.

[rosie read and post]

what are you doing for your emotional/spiritual self?


--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

in the practice of tolerance,
one's enemy is the best teacher.
...............................dalai lama







"Barely Sober" <barelysober@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:52587e2b.0311201454.10b08784@posting.google.c om...
> Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote in message
news:<pan.2003.11.20.00.18.45.220444@inorbit.com>...
>
> >
> > Anyway, the point is, just as Shawster said, "as long as you
believe that,
> > you will remain drunk." Get up off your ass and just do it.
Really. I
> > wish I could tell you that's it's a walk in the park, I wish I
could tell
> > you that it's easy. It's not. I've quit a lot of drugs over
the years,
> > but this alcohol thing really has kicked my ass. It'll really
suck for a
> > few weeks, but it'll pass. Really.
> >
>
> Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of
presenting
> a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking,
"it"
> may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck. I'm about a
month
> from my second birthday after having been a raging alcoholic for
12
> years. These last two years of sobriety, for me, have been
horrible.
> NOTHING has gotten better, except that I've lost my beer belly. I
> used alcohol to medicate myself through life's unpleasantries and
> annoyances...sober, I get the "joy" of experiencing all these
> unpleasantries and annoyances with a clarity that, frankly, I
could do
> without. I'd been asked before I quit drinking if I "wanted to be
> sober"...my answer then is the same as it is now - NO. I don't
"want"
> to be sober. Never have. Never will. What I "want" is that
feeling
> that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
> alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing
me. I
> miss that feeling every day. I had to quit because alcohol was
> killing my body. I faced this fact, and the fact that my fear of
> dying a painful, miserable death due to alcohol exceeded, only
> slightly, my desire to drink. But to be honest, I STILL miss
drinking
> and I still want to drink. EVERY DAY. Truth be told, I find the
more
> time I've been sober, the stronger my desire to drink again. The
> desire for me has NEVER passed, and I doubt it ever will. I
cringe
> when I see people making statements like "it'll pass". For a lot
of
> us, it never has, and never will.
>
> B.

[The Other Harry]

[On 20 Nov 2003 14:54:14 -0800, barelysober@hotmail.com
(Barely Sober) wrote:]

> Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of presenting
> a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking, "it"
> may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck.

<snip>

Good post. Outstanding.

I am never going to "want" to be sober. I am going to
*need* to become sober -- either that or die -- but I am
never going to want to be sober.

[Robert McGregor]

"Barely Sober" <barelysober@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:52587e2b.0311201454.10b08784@posting.google.c om...
> Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote in message
news:<pan.2003.11.20.00.18.45.220444@inorbit.com>...
>
> Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of presenting
> a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking, "it"
> may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck. I'm about a month
> from my second birthday after having been a raging alcoholic for 12
> years. These last two years of sobriety, for me, have been horrible.
> NOTHING has gotten better, except that I've lost my beer belly. I
> used alcohol to medicate myself through life's unpleasantries and
> annoyances...sober, I get the "joy" of experiencing all these
> unpleasantries and annoyances with a clarity that, frankly, I could do
> without. I'd been asked before I quit drinking if I "wanted to be
> sober"...my answer then is the same as it is now - NO. I don't "want"
> to be sober. Never have. Never will. What I "want" is that feeling
> that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
> alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
> miss that feeling every day. I had to quit because alcohol was
> killing my body. I faced this fact, and the fact that my fear of
> dying a painful, miserable death due to alcohol exceeded, only
> slightly, my desire to drink. But to be honest, I STILL miss drinking
> and I still want to drink. EVERY DAY. Truth be told, I find the more
> time I've been sober, the stronger my desire to drink again. The
> desire for me has NEVER passed, and I doubt it ever will. I cringe
> when I see people making statements like "it'll pass". For a lot of
> us, it never has, and never will.
>
> B.
http://silkworth.net/bb/doctorsopinion.html
"They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again
experience
the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few
drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. "

http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html

Bob

[Mark Warner]

The Other Harry wrote:
>
> Like I've mentioned in other posts, the sleep problems may go on
> for years. So I'm told.
>
> I don't find that amusing.
>
> For me, the sleep problem interacts with the mental problems. I
> can stay awake all night long and think about everything I have
> ever done that was the least bit wrong.
>
> That does not help me quit drinking.


Two points:

1) No one ever died from lack of sleep.

2) Once you've stopped drinking, the AA program directly addresses how
you deal with " everything I have ever done that was the least bit
wrong." But it doesn't work until *after* you've stopped drinking.

--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying

[Xanadu]

I extend my hand in your direction. That was VERY well said.

[Moonraker]

"The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:1orqrv07vvh708sfepucaqe6e8n8an05tj@4ax.com...
>
> I am never going to "want" to be sober. I am going to
> *need* to become sober -- either that or die -- but I am
> never going to want to be sober.

Then you never "will" get sober. Nobody can psychoanalyze you into it,
nobody can incarcerate you into it, nobody can medicate you into it, you
can need it with all your might, but until you WANT it more than you want to
be drunk, drunk is what you will be.

You can persist with your delusional "But, I'm different" bullshit all the
way to the morgue.

[Blue Moon]

On 20 Nov 2003 14:54:14 -0800, barelysober@hotmail.com (Barely Sober)
wrote:

>What I "want" is that feeling
>that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
>alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
>miss that feeling every day.

Have you tried the AA program? What you seek is what the program is
designed to provide.

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Zwfvb.9695$DX3.7931@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:1orqrv07vvh708sfepucaqe6e8n8an05tj@4ax.com...
> >
> > I am never going to "want" to be sober. I am going to
> > *need* to become sober -- either that or die -- but I am
> > never going to want to be sober.
>
> Then you never "will" get sober. Nobody can psychoanalyze you into it,
> nobody can incarcerate you into it, nobody can medicate you into it, you
> can need it with all your might, but until you WANT it more than you want
to
> be drunk, drunk is what you will be.
>
> You can persist with your delusional "But, I'm different" bullshit all the
> way to the morgue.
>
>

Jeez, after hearing all the "slippers" at AA bullshitting about how much
they *loved* sobriety I was not at all surprised they were not honest enough
to stay sober.

I chose to take the 12 step program of recovery because I detested being
drunk, as *opposed* to wanting to be sober. The only occasions I've ever
heard sobriety defined judgementally as a measure of emotional health,
instead of the physical absence of alcohol sobriety undoubtedly is, is when
the "definition" comes from those that talk with the forked tongue of
AAspeak.

Bob

[Moonraker]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpk2l6$1pmqb5$1@ID-49289.news.uni->


> I chose to take the 12 step program of recovery because I detested being
> drunk, as *opposed* to wanting to be sober.

Yeah? And this self-hatred (as it were) triggered the desire to take the
steps, right? But, had you not DONE some action(s) beyond acknowledging
the "want", you'd still likely be falling down drunk. As you've pointed
out, merely wanting sobriety isn't enough. Isn't that what you are
saying?

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7ugvb.9861$DX3.8423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bpk2l6$1pmqb5$1@ID-49289.news.uni->
>
>
> > I chose to take the 12 step program of recovery because I detested being
> > drunk, as *opposed* to wanting to be sober.
>
> Yeah? And this self-hatred (as it were) triggered the desire to take the
> steps, right? But, had you not DONE some action(s) beyond acknowledging
> the "want", you'd still likely be falling down drunk. As you've pointed
> out, merely wanting sobriety isn't enough. Isn't that what you are
> saying?
>
>

If you ignore the spaces, and read the text, you may comprehend what I said.
If not, and it really matters to you, ask again.

Bob

[Moonraker]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpk4tv$1p5je7$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:7ugvb.9861$DX3.8423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:bpk2l6$1pmqb5$1@ID-49289.news.uni->
> >
> >
> > > I chose to take the 12 step program of recovery because I detested
being
> > > drunk, as *opposed* to wanting to be sober.
> >
> > Yeah? And this self-hatred (as it were) triggered the desire to take
the
> > steps, right? But, had you not DONE some action(s) beyond
acknowledging
> > the "want", you'd still likely be falling down drunk. As you've
pointed
> > out, merely wanting sobriety isn't enough. Isn't that what you are
> > saying?
> >
> >
>
> If you ignore the spaces, and read the text, you may comprehend what I
said.
> If not, and it really matters to you, ask again.
>
> Bob
>
>

Well, if "detesting" being drunk didn't trigger the desire for sobriety,
what did? I'm not trying to argue with you...I just didn't understand
what you see as the nuances are between that self-hatred and the desire to
change? it seems like 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other.

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:VLgvb.9877$DX3.393@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bpk4tv$1p5je7$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:7ugvb.9861$DX3.8423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > > news:bpk2l6$1pmqb5$1@ID-49289.news.uni->
> > >
> > >
> > > > I chose to take the 12 step program of recovery because I detested
> being
> > > > drunk, as *opposed* to wanting to be sober.
> > >
> > > Yeah? And this self-hatred (as it were) triggered the desire to take
> the
> > > steps, right? But, had you not DONE some action(s) beyond
> acknowledging
> > > the "want", you'd still likely be falling down drunk. As you've
> pointed
> > > out, merely wanting sobriety isn't enough. Isn't that what you are
> > > saying?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > If you ignore the spaces, and read the text, you may comprehend what I
> said.
> > If not, and it really matters to you, ask again.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
> Well, if "detesting" being drunk didn't trigger the desire for sobriety,
> what did? I'm not trying to argue with you...I just didn't understand
> what you see as the nuances are between that self-hatred and the desire to
> change? it seems like 6 of one and a half-dozen of the other.
>

To the best of my recollection presenting with similar stupidity to Harry,
when I started taking those steps I had no ambition at all to be sober.

I knew my mind was in a fog. I knew I simply detested being drunk. It's not
hard at all to overload a fogged mind with much more than one thought. Jeez,
it's not at all hard even today to overload my mind with more than a couple
of thoughts!

The response was my way of sharing my personal experience, that *wanting
sobriety need not be a prerequisite for commencing recovery from the
desolation of alcoholism.*

Did that help?

Bob

[Moonraker]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpk6re$1o4v75$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> To the best of my recollection presenting with similar stupidity to Harry,
> when I started taking those steps I had no ambition at all to be sober.
>
> I knew my mind was in a fog. I knew I simply detested being drunk. It's
not
> hard at all to overload a fogged mind with much more than one thought.
Jeez,
> it's not at all hard even today to overload my mind with more than a
couple
> of thoughts!
>
> The response was my way of sharing my personal experience, that *wanting
> sobriety need not be a prerequisite for commencing recovery from the
> desolation of alcoholism.*
>
> Did that help?
>
> Bob
>
>

Ok...I understand where you started from. I was operating from the "only
requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" point of view.

We don't disagree, just were at different points on the continuum. Would
it be safe to say that once you got a glimmer of sobriety, (in whatever form
that was), you wanted it? And still do want what you have?

"..... being convinced, we were at step 3." ?

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:X7ovb.10275$DX3.2001@bignews5.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bpk6re$1o4v75$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > To the best of my recollection presenting with similar stupidity to
Harry,
> > when I started taking those steps I had no ambition at all to be sober.
> >
> > I knew my mind was in a fog. I knew I simply detested being drunk. It's
> not
> > hard at all to overload a fogged mind with much more than one thought.
> Jeez,
> > it's not at all hard even today to overload my mind with more than a
> couple
> > of thoughts!
> >
> > The response was my way of sharing my personal experience, that *wanting
> > sobriety need not be a prerequisite for commencing recovery from the
> > desolation of alcoholism.*
> >
> > Did that help?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
> Ok...I understand where you started from. I was operating from the "only
> requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking" point of view.
>
> We don't disagree, just were at different points on the continuum.
Would
> it be safe to say that once you got a glimmer of sobriety, (in whatever
form
> that was), you wanted it? And still do want what you have?
>
> "..... being convinced, we were at step 3." ?
>
>

I still don't give a stuff about sobriety, but I do care deeply about proven
effective solutions to living problems. Unfortunately in my case, those
solutions are impossible with alcohol added to the equation. I am prepared
to go to any lengths to maintain access to, and application of, those
effective solutions. In other words, I do want what I have, and for over a
decade have demonstrated my continued intent to keep it. On the other hand,
to delude myself and others I can give what I have to anyone else is
completely absurd.

Bob

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpl4sk$1oj41e$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
<snip>
>
> I still don't give a stuff about sobriety, but I do care deeply
about proven
> effective solutions to living problems. Unfortunately in my case,
those
> solutions are impossible with alcohol added to the equation. I am
prepared
> to go to any lengths to maintain access to, and application of,
those
> effective solutions. In other words, I do want what I have, and for
over a
> decade have demonstrated my continued intent to keep it. On the
other hand,
> to delude myself and others I can give what I have to anyone else is
> completely absurd.
>
> Bob
>

If you can get other alcholics to accept that they won't be able to
find for themselves "effective living solutions" while they keep
drinking, is this not you giving away something that you have acheived
?

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bpl6f4$kqq$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> If you can get other alcholics to accept that they won't be able to
> find for themselves "effective living solutions" while they keep
> drinking, is this not you giving away something that you have acheived
> ?
>

Jeez, JB. I neither imply, let alone purport, to have the power of deciding
what other alcoholics will or will not accept.

Bob

[Moonraker]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpl8pk$1pubj9$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> Jeez, JB. I neither imply, let alone purport, to have the power of
deciding
> what other alcoholics will or will not accept.
>
> Bob
>

Sort of a rhetorical question, then: If you aren't interested in offering
what you have achieved in the way of sobriety, why bother posting at all?
I mean, none of us are particularly backward about expressing a point of
view on any topic. If we didn't have some interest in offering the means to
achieve sobriety (or solutions to life's problems, as you put it) to others,
why would we have sought out this newsgroup? Those who don't want to
offer what they've found don't bother to come around.

I realize that it takes at least 3 people about 80% of their total posting
time just to bitch-slap Rosie back into her place, but in the other 20% of
your time, you offer some well put, succinct, albeit pithy advice. I have
a hard time believing you aren't doing that out of the goodness of your
"mostly" hardened heart. ;>) You old softy, you.

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bpl8pk$1pubj9$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bpl6f4$kqq$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > If you can get other alcholics to accept that they won't be able
to
> > find for themselves "effective living solutions" while they keep
> > drinking, is this not you giving away something that you have
acheived
> > ?
> >
>
> Jeez, JB. I neither imply, let alone purport, to have the power of
deciding
> what other alcoholics will or will not accept.
>
> Bob

I never said you did :^))

FWIW, when you used the phrase "proven effective living solutions",
it had a positive impact on me. For the first time, I began to wonder
what would be effective living solutions for me It's made me realise
that since I stopped drinking, joined this NG and AA and have been
working the Steps, I have found a few. For example, I have an
effective way of coping with the fact that my husband is becoming
weaker and that if he gets another serious chest infection this
winter, he may die. I have also found ways to be happier than I've
been for a long time. These include: no longer spending hours being
angry for all sorts of reasons, giving up a stressful job and stopping
trying to predict the outcome of future events . Once my husband dies,
I shall need to find effective solutions to whatever I shall have to
subsequently face At one time, I used to worry a great deal about
how I would manage by myself. FWIW, these days, I rarely worry about
it. When I was drinking every day, when I was worried about what was
going on in my life, it was impossible for me to work out how to cope
with it. LOL. I found it no trouble to wallow in self-pity :^))

Bob, I agree that you don't have the *power* of deciding what other
alcoholics will or will not accept . However, as what you say
influences the way some individuals think and subsequently behave, you
can - and do - make a difference to their lives.

Best regards

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Fyqvb.8109$Tx2.2809@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bpl8pk$1pubj9$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Jeez, JB. I neither imply, let alone purport, to have the power of
> deciding
> > what other alcoholics will or will not accept.
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
> Sort of a rhetorical question, then: If you aren't interested in
offering
> what you have achieved in the way of sobriety, why bother posting at all?
> I mean, none of us are particularly backward about expressing a point of
> view on any topic. If we didn't have some interest in offering the means
to
> achieve sobriety (or solutions to life's problems, as you put it) to
others,
> why would we have sought out this newsgroup? Those who don't want to
> offer what they've found don't bother to come around.
>
> I realize that it takes at least 3 people about 80% of their total posting
> time just to bitch-slap Rosie back into her place, but in the other 20%
of
> your time, you offer some well put, succinct, albeit pithy advice. I
have
> a hard time believing you aren't doing that out of the goodness of your
> "mostly" hardened heart. ;>) You old softy, you.
>
>

To the best of my recollection, the *only* advice I have ever offered here,
has been with sentiments such as, or similar to the advice I gave Gail, "If
...... then Fuck Off!" If my recollection is faulty, I am willing to be
corrected.

I do however thoroughly enjoy documenting alternatives that imo generally
lead to the presentation of a more balanced array of information presented
here.

Bob

[Moonraker]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bplfcb$1om874$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>
>
> I do however thoroughly enjoy documenting alternatives that imo generally
> lead to the presentation of a more balanced array of information presented
> here.
>
> Bob
>
That would be the succinct, pithy part. ;>)

[Barely Sober]

The Other Harry <hc.me@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<1orqrv07vvh708sfepucaqe6e8n8an05tj@4ax.com>...
> [On 20 Nov 2003 14:54:14 -0800, barelysober@hotmail.com
> (Barely Sober) wrote:]
>
> > Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of presenting
> > a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking, "it"
> > may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck.
>
> <snip>
>
> Good post. Outstanding.
>
> I am never going to "want" to be sober. I am going to
> *need* to become sober -- either that or die -- but I am
> never going to want to be sober.

I think you hit it on the head....the "need" is what is necessary to
get sober...not the desire. I do not desire sobriety. I much prefer
intoxication. But I need sobriety to live.

B.

[rosie read and post]

>
> I think you hit it on the head....the "need" is what is necessary
to
> get sober...not the desire. I do not desire sobriety. I much
prefer
> intoxication. But I need sobriety to live.
>
> B.

i guess the question would be HOW MUCH intoxication?
:)

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:J9Pvb.61587$Eq1.29954@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > I think you hit it on the head....the "need" is what is necessary
> to
> > get sober...not the desire. I do not desire sobriety. I much
> prefer
> > intoxication. But I need sobriety to live.
> >
> > B.
>
> i guess the question would be HOW MUCH intoxication?
> :)
>
>

http://blank.org/link/?q=1069531237

[Barely Sober]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message news:<bpjrd6$1pk6p2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> "Barely Sober" <barelysober@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:52587e2b.0311201454.10b08784@posting.google.c om...
> > Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote in message
> news:<pan.2003.11.20.00.18.45.220444@inorbit.com>...
> >
> > Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of presenting
> > a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking, "it"
> > may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck. I'm about a month
> > from my second birthday after having been a raging alcoholic for 12
> > years. These last two years of sobriety, for me, have been horrible.
> > NOTHING has gotten better, except that I've lost my beer belly. I
> > used alcohol to medicate myself through life's unpleasantries and
> > annoyances...sober, I get the "joy" of experiencing all these
> > unpleasantries and annoyances with a clarity that, frankly, I could do
> > without. I'd been asked before I quit drinking if I "wanted to be
> > sober"...my answer then is the same as it is now - NO. I don't "want"
> > to be sober. Never have. Never will. What I "want" is that feeling
> > that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
> > alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
> > miss that feeling every day. I had to quit because alcohol was
> > killing my body. I faced this fact, and the fact that my fear of
> > dying a painful, miserable death due to alcohol exceeded, only
> > slightly, my desire to drink. But to be honest, I STILL miss drinking
> > and I still want to drink. EVERY DAY. Truth be told, I find the more
> > time I've been sober, the stronger my desire to drink again. The
> > desire for me has NEVER passed, and I doubt it ever will. I cringe
> > when I see people making statements like "it'll pass". For a lot of
> > us, it never has, and never will.
> >
> > B.
> http://silkworth.net/bb/doctorsopinion.html
> "They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again
> experience
> the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few
> drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. "
>
> http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
>
> Bob


I'm not sure that I totally disagree...there are times, two years into
my sobriety, where I feel irritable and discontented, but there are an
equal number of times where I more or less feel "normal". However I
feel, though, I still want to drink. And I still abhor sobriety.
Note I'm not saying that sobriety isn't a "good" thing...of course it
is. It's just that I don't want it. I prefer to be drunk. I came to
realize however, that what I was doing, by ingesting inordinate
amounts of alcohol on a daily basis, was hastening my demise. I had
to make a choice...I hated (and still hate) sobriety, but I don't want
to die early, either. Not dying early won out, ever so slightly. So
I quit drinking. I don't embrace sobriety, though. I merely exist in
it.
I say this not to discourage anyone - I say it for those, who like me,
felt that there too many people at AA meetings overjoyed and SO
unbelievably happy to be sober that I thought there was something
wrong in that I couldn't relate to that feeling at all....in fact, I
was feeling, and still feel, the exact opposite. I'm miserable sober.
Drunk I was happy, but killing myself. Sober, I'm miserable, but I
won't hurt anyone or myself, and I'll live longer. I made my choice.
But I still hate it.

B.

[Barely Sober]

Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<9794cc49915a58973605b2740e6ac08a@news.teranews.com >...
> On 20 Nov 2003 14:54:14 -0800, barelysober@hotmail.com (Barely Sober)
> wrote:
>
> >What I "want" is that feeling
> >that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
> >alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
> >miss that feeling every day.
>
> Have you tried the AA program? What you seek is what the program is
> designed to provide.

I've been attending AA meetings for two years.

B

[Robert McGregor]

"Barely Sober" <barelysober@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:52587e2b.0311221205.6e78f997@posting.google.c om...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:<bpjrd6$1pk6p2$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>...
> > "Barely Sober" <barelysober@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:52587e2b.0311201454.10b08784@posting.google.c om...
> > > Xanadu <xanadu@inorbit.com> wrote in message
> > news:<pan.2003.11.20.00.18.45.220444@inorbit.com>...
> > >
> > > Ummm...not to be a wet blanket here, but for the purpose of presenting
> > > a realistic outlook to alcoholics considering quitting drinking, "it"
> > > may NEVER "pass" and "it" might just always suck. I'm about a month
> > > from my second birthday after having been a raging alcoholic for 12
> > > years. These last two years of sobriety, for me, have been horrible.
> > > NOTHING has gotten better, except that I've lost my beer belly. I
> > > used alcohol to medicate myself through life's unpleasantries and
> > > annoyances...sober, I get the "joy" of experiencing all these
> > > unpleasantries and annoyances with a clarity that, frankly, I could do
> > > without. I'd been asked before I quit drinking if I "wanted to be
> > > sober"...my answer then is the same as it is now - NO. I don't "want"
> > > to be sober. Never have. Never will. What I "want" is that feeling
> > > that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
> > > alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
> > > miss that feeling every day. I had to quit because alcohol was
> > > killing my body. I faced this fact, and the fact that my fear of
> > > dying a painful, miserable death due to alcohol exceeded, only
> > > slightly, my desire to drink. But to be honest, I STILL miss drinking
> > > and I still want to drink. EVERY DAY. Truth be told, I find the more
> > > time I've been sober, the stronger my desire to drink again. The
> > > desire for me has NEVER passed, and I doubt it ever will. I cringe
> > > when I see people making statements like "it'll pass". For a lot of
> > > us, it never has, and never will.
> > >
> > > B.
> > http://silkworth.net/bb/doctorsopinion.html
> > "They are restless, irritable and discontented, unless they can again
> > experience
> > the sense of ease and comfort which comes at once by taking a few
> > drinks-drinks which they see others taking with impunity. "
> >
> > http://silkworth.net/bb/howitworks.html
> >
> > Bob
>
>
> I'm not sure that I totally disagree...there are times, two years into
> my sobriety, where I feel irritable and discontented, but there are an
> equal number of times where I more or less feel "normal". However I
> feel, though, I still want to drink. And I still abhor sobriety.
> Note I'm not saying that sobriety isn't a "good" thing...of course it
> is. It's just that I don't want it. I prefer to be drunk. I came to
> realize however, that what I was doing, by ingesting inordinate
> amounts of alcohol on a daily basis, was hastening my demise. I had
> to make a choice...I hated (and still hate) sobriety, but I don't want
> to die early, either. Not dying early won out, ever so slightly. So
> I quit drinking. I don't embrace sobriety, though. I merely exist in
> it.
> I say this not to discourage anyone - I say it for those, who like me,
> felt that there too many people at AA meetings overjoyed and SO
> unbelievably happy to be sober that I thought there was something
> wrong in that I couldn't relate to that feeling at all....in fact, I
> was feeling, and still feel, the exact opposite. I'm miserable sober.
> Drunk I was happy, but killing myself. Sober, I'm miserable, but I
> won't hurt anyone or myself, and I'll live longer. I made my choice.
> But I still hate it.
>
> B.

Oh, I noticed the same emphasis on "loving sobriety" by AA members, for many
of them in between drinks. Others, after a few years of "loving sobriety"
gradually demonstrated a degree of honest perception by changing emphasis to
"living life on life's terms."

For me, living "life on life's terms" included the rigorous self inventory
process of sequential step four, as distinct from the "osmosis" of attending
AA meetings that has been promoted here, and did what I could about the
findings as detailed in the subsequent steps.

Today, I can certainly say that life's term's are generally astoundingly
easier than before I diligently looked at my own role in actually
determining what life "threw" at me. Despite the inevitable onset of the
ageing process after an extended and misspent youth, lifestyle options
narrowed accordingly, I can access serenity whenever I choose to, (the
opposite of irritable and discontented) even in adversity, and that is more
than I deserve..

Bob

[Blue Moon]

On 22 Nov 2003 12:08:28 -0800, barelysober@hotmail.com (Barely Sober)
wrote:

>Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<9794cc49915a58973605b2740e6ac08a@news.teranews.com >...
>> On 20 Nov 2003 14:54:14 -0800, barelysober@hotmail.com (Barely Sober)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >What I "want" is that feeling
>> >that alcohol gave me after several drinks. I want that warm
>> >alcohol-induced wave to pass over me - comforting me - relaxing me. I
>> >miss that feeling every day.
>>
>> Have you tried the AA program? What you seek is what the program is
>> designed to provide.
>
>I've been attending AA meetings for two years.

I asked if you've tried the AA program. That program makes no mention
of attending AA meetings. By your response I conclude the answer to
be "no". Too often I hear people say "I've been in the program for x
years", and I just want to correct them. There's the AA fellowship,
and then there's the AA program ... 2 distinctly different things. So
I can be "in the fellowship" or "on, or working, the program", but "in
the program" doesn't apply.

--
Blue Moon

[rosie read and post]

> I say this not to discourage anyone - I say it for those, who like
me,
> felt that there too many people at AA meetings overjoyed and SO
> unbelievably happy to be sober that I thought there was something
> wrong in that I couldn't relate to that feeling at all....in fact,
I
> was feeling, and still feel, the exact opposite. I'm miserable
sober.
> Drunk I was happy, but killing myself. Sober, I'm miserable, but
I
> won't hurt anyone or myself, and I'll live longer. I made my
choice.
> But I still hate it.
>
> B.


B,
is there something else going on besides your alcoholism?
have you been assessed for depression?

(btw, now is when a few of this groups malcontents are going to
chime in and start their bullshit about me, try to ignore them and
talk about yourself)

[Shawster]

>
> (btw, now is when a few of this groups malcontents are going to
> chime in and start their bullshit about me, try to ignore them and
> talk about yourself)
>

try to use your psychic powers for good will you?


>

[Moonraker]

>
> (btw, now is when a few of this groups malcontents are going to
> chime in and start their bullshit about me, try to ignore them and
> talk about yourself)
>
>

Usenet, grant me the serenity to post the things I know about,
Courage to make up the things I don't,
and the Wisdom to not know the difference.

One can't count the times Rosie binBlabbin's been called a liar and a troll.
I think it was 17 Google pages worth of results..

So, Barely Sober, you go on and talk about yourself, mindful that you can
get sucked into the quagmire of smarm and false diagnosises that she so
loves to perpetrate on the newbies.

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie read and post" <readandpost@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9SRvb.62690$Eq1.51018@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > I say this not to discourage anyone - I say it for those, who like
> me,
> > felt that there too many people at AA meetings overjoyed and SO
> > unbelievably happy to be sober that I thought there was something
> > wrong in that I couldn't relate to that feeling at all....in fact,
> I
> > was feeling, and still feel, the exact opposite. I'm miserable
> sober.
> > Drunk I was happy, but killing myself. Sober, I'm miserable, but
> I
> > won't hurt anyone or myself, and I'll live longer. I made my
> choice.
> > But I still hate it.
> >
> > B.
>
>
> B,
> is there something else going on besides your alcoholism?
> have you been assessed for depression?
>
> (btw, now is when a few of this groups malcontents are going to
> chime in and start their bullshit about me, try to ignore them and
> talk about yourself)
>
>

Once again the grim reaper's promoting her softer, easier, and futile ways.
Don't do as she does, do as she says!.

Given B's post here was talking about personal experience arguably far more
comprehensively, explicitly, and honestly, than rosie's multitudes of posts
here put together, that ulterior motives are behind her insulting advice is
all too obvious.

Bob