Drugs For Alcoholics [Archive] - Drug & Alcohol Rehab Forums & News

JoeRaisin

02-03-2008, 09:03 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> jimbo wrote:
>
>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>> alcohol?
>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>> Jimbo
>
> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>

I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
a program in AA.

AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.

I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
like the way they feel when they are not drinking.

Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.

If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
AA rather than being sober to better one's life.

In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
to stop.

Good Luck

Tommy

02-03-2008, 04:08 PM

In news:47A5B277.1F6C1119@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us,
Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.> typed:lugubriously

>> I recently read a report in the August 16, 2004 edition of Medical
> News Today (www.medicalnewstoday.com) about a drug called Topiramate
> that can reduce drinking, alcohol cravings, and the symptoms of
> alcohol withdraw. This finding is corroberated by cooresponding
> decreases in serum gamma-glutamyl transferase levels, a biological
> marker of heavy drinking. +

Tim hello and welcome, stick around for a while as there are a few threads
here and there that might give you some situational stories of what some of
'us' went through and what we thought at the time/

By the way, your name is familiar, from security or somewhere, I forget :-)

If or when a person is drinking to excess or abusively or tends to binge....
they may or may not clean their act up in time - or have an awakening of
sorts, however stark or rude. For some of us it was DUI, jail,
homelessness, jobless, penury and poverty, illness and in some cases death.

A jolly good drinker of the hail fellow well met type, may escape this
obsession for years and years. I view it as a line in the middle of my
path. I skeeter to the left (In the US its the Right) for years. Because
of my personality- my weakness- whatever, I crossed that invisible line.
Thing is in all the years I've been doing this,m I firmly believe that once
that imaginary line has been crossed, you just cannot recross it back to
normal drinking.

PS these are my words and my opinion and although there are medical and
psychological findings to back these theories up - we alcoholics will
convince ourselves that ONE DAY we well be like normal drinkers - UNTIL we
accept that we are powerless over the demons within, in my case, alcohol.

Cheers
Tommy

Tim Bruening

02-04-2008, 02:55 AM

Biljo White wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > jimbo wrote:
> >
> > > On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > > > What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> > > > alcohol?
> > >
> > > I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
> > > of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> > > Jimbo
> >
> > How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>
> You go to AA.

My co-worker's wife is now going there, several days a week, early in the
morning.

Tim Bruening

02-04-2008, 02:56 AM

Tim Bruening

02-04-2008, 02:58 AM

JoeRaisin wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> > jimbo wrote:
> >
> >> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >>> alcohol?
> >> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
> >> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >> Jimbo
> >
> > How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >
>
> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
> a program in AA.
>
> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>
> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>
> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>
> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>
> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> to stop.

After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.

Tex

02-04-2008, 03:44 AM

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >
>> > jimbo wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>> >>> alcohol?
>> >> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
>> >> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>> >> Jimbo
>> >
>> > How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >
>>
>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
>> a program in AA.
>>
>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>
>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>
>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>
>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>
>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>> to stop.
>
>After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
>quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
>days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
>vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
>power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.

Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
necessarily the same as wanting to quit.

Tim Bruening

02-04-2008, 04:23 AM

Tex wrote:

> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >JoeRaisin wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >
> >> > jimbo wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >> >>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >> >>> alcohol?
> >> >> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
> >> >> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >> >> Jimbo
> >> >
> >> > How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
> >> a program in AA.
> >>
> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >>
> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >>
> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >>
> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >>
> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> >> to stop.
> >
> >After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
> >quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
> >days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
> >vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
> >power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>
> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.

I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and caused her
to make up her mind to quit.

Tim Bruening

02-04-2008, 04:27 AM

I found a list of all the drugs used to treat alcoholism at
http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.org/medications/alcoholism/index.html

The drugs are Topirimate, Nefazodone, Ondansetron, Naltrexone, Disulfiram
(The drug that makes you throw up if you drink!), and Campral.

JoeRaisin

02-04-2008, 04:52 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> Tex wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>>>>>> alcohol?
>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>>>>>> Jimbo
>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>>>
>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
>>>> a program in AA.
>>>>
>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>>>
>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>>>
>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>>>
>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>>>
>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>>>> to stop.
>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
>
> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and caused her
> to make up her mind to quit.
>

Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.

I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
sober using AA.

If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
together a whole bunch of those days.

There are several chemicals that are used to dissuade someone from
drinking and some of them even work to a certain extent.

But there is no magic pill. In the end it is up to her. If she wants
to quit the program she is involved in can help. If she doesn't want to
quit no amount of meetings will do it. If she is just trying to get
your friend off her back she will just try to get sneakier.

Tim Bruening

02-04-2008, 04:57 AM

JoeRaisin wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> > Tex wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
> >> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> JoeRaisin wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>>>> jimbo wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >>>>>>> alcohol?
> >>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
> >>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >>>>>> Jimbo
> >>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >>>>>
> >>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
> >>>> a program in AA.
> >>>>
> >>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> >>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> >>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
> >>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> >>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >>>>
> >>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
> >>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> >>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> >>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> >>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >>>>
> >>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >>>>
> >>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> >>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> >>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> >>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
> >>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
> >>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> >>>> to stop.
> >>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
> >>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
> >>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
> >>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
> >>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
> >> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
> >> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
> >
> > I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and caused her
> > to make up her mind to quit.
> >
>
> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
>
> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
> sober using AA.
>
> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
> together a whole bunch of those days.

I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".

Dan from Boston

02-04-2008, 07:50 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
> What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
> "Higher Power"?

Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.

I'm glad this woman is going to AA. She should keep going, no matter what.
Some people 'get it' right away; others take time. I went for two years
before getting sober, but I'm more stubborn than most (grin).

Dan

Dan from Boston

02-04-2008, 07:53 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
> to quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
> a few days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
> double vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
> her will power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.

She will have to stay away from the stepdad for awhile (he sounds like a
real winner). As far as I know there are no drugs to help. More meetings,
have her get a sponsor (a woman, not a man), and not go anywhere alcohol is
sold or served.

Dan from Boston

02-04-2008, 07:56 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and
> caused her to make up her mind to quit.

That could have been what we call 'hitting bottom' - something happens that
breaks through the denial and causes the alcoholic to see what he or she
has become. This is what you hope for; it's the beginning of progress.

Tell her not to give up, no matter what. People who have a drinking problem
are ALWAYS welcome at AA meetings, no matter what their situation or
feelings.

Dan from Boston

02-04-2008, 08:02 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> > If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
> > together a whole bunch of those days.
>
> I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".

That is great advice. Have her ask someone (another woman) to be her
temporary sponsor. Also, have her collect phone numbers at meetings. When
she has an urge to drink, she can pick up the phone. This really works.

F.H.

02-04-2008, 09:08 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>>>> alcohol?
>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>>>> Jimbo
>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>
>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
>> a program in AA.
>>
>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>
>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>
>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>
>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>
>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>> to stop.
>
> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.

Glucose tablets.

(David P.)

02-04-2008, 10:41 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
> How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?

Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
..
..
--

JoeRaisin

02-04-2008, 04:21 PM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>> Tex wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
>>>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
>>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>>>>>>>> Jimbo
>>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
>>>>>> a program in AA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
>>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
>>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
>>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
>>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
>>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
>>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
>>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
>>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
>>>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
>>> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and caused her
>>> to make up her mind to quit.
>>>
>> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
>>
>> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
>> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
>> sober using AA.
>>
>> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
>> together a whole bunch of those days.
>
> I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".
>

But have you offered her anything in place of what she is getting from
the drinking?

Its tough to say, I know you are getting some sort of benefit from this
and you feel as though you need it - but just stop.

That is what AA offered me. When I was drunk I didn't feel inadequate
to the challenge of day-to-day life. AA showed me a way of diminishing
the negative self perception and helped me re-build my confidence.

Check the promises...

non

02-04-2008, 07:39 PM

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A50CF2.6C5C8CF5@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
When she drinks, she turns violent, forcing her husband to move out.

How about she moves out?? This would probably solve the problem.

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 02:24 AM

Dan from Boston wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
> > "Higher Power"?
>
> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.
>
> I'm glad this woman is going to AA. She should keep going, no matter what.
> Some people 'get it' right away; others take time. I went for two years
> before getting sober, but I'm more stubborn than most (grin).

Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in the cold, as
she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a bike. When I last
talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting. Fortunately, she got
new keys for her truck yesterday during the day, as she had gotten a cold from
walking in the cold.

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 02:25 AM

Dan from Boston wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
> > to quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
> > a few days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
> > double vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
> > her will power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>
> She will have to stay away from the stepdad for awhile (he sounds like a
> real winner). As far as I know there are no drugs to help. More meetings,
> have her get a sponsor (a woman, not a man), and not go anywhere alcohol is
> sold or served.

She has a sponsor, I don't know what sex.

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 02:34 AM

"F.H." wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> > JoeRaisin wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>> jimbo wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >>>>> alcohol?
> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >>>> Jimbo
> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >>>
> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
> >> a program in AA.
> >>
> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >>
> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >>
> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >>
> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >>
> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> >> to stop.
> >
> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>
> Glucose tablets.

How do glucose tablets work?

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 02:34 AM

"(David P.)" wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
>
> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!

But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 02:39 AM

JoeRaisin wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >
> > JoeRaisin wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>> Tex wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
> >>>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >>>>>>>>> alcohol?
> >>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever heard
> >>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >>>>>>>> Jimbo
> >>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began working
> >>>>>> a program in AA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> >>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> >>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at myself
> >>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> >>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If your
> >>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> >>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> >>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> >>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> >>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> >>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> >>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober 'at'
> >>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to quit
> >>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> >>>>>> to stop.
> >>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants to
> >>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after a few
> >>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink double
> >>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
> >>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
> >>>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
> >>>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
> >>> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and caused her
> >>> to make up her mind to quit.
> >>>
> >> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
> >>
> >> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
> >> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
> >> sober using AA.
> >>
> >> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
> >> together a whole bunch of those days.
> >
> > I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".
> >
>
> But have you offered her anything in place of what she is getting from
> the drinking?

I am giving her emotional support and encouragement, and I got her husband to return to
her and give her his love.

> Its tough to say, I know you are getting some sort of benefit from this
> and you feel as though you need it - but just stop.
>
> That is what AA offered me. When I was drunk I didn't feel inadequate
> to the challenge of day-to-day life. AA showed me a way of diminishing
> the negative self perception and helped me re-build my confidence.
>
> Check the promises...

Tex

02-05-2008, 02:52 AM

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:34:30 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>"(David P.)" wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >
>> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
>> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
>>
>> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
>
>But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?

He's jerking your chain....a higher power or power greater than
oneself doesn't have to be a *god*.

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 02:59 AM

Tex wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:34:30 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"(David P.)" wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
> >> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
> >>
> >> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
> >
> >But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?
>
> He's jerking your chain....a higher power or power greater than
> oneself doesn't have to be a *god*.

What kinds of non-God powers are higher or greater than oneself?

I had thought that an atheist would not believe in ANY higher power!

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 03:03 AM

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 03:04 AM

sharx35

02-05-2008, 03:09 AM

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> "F.H." wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >
>> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >>> jimbo wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>> >>>>> alcohol?
>> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>> >>>> heard
>> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>> >>>> Jimbo
>> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >>>
>> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >> working
>> >> a program in AA.
>> >>
>> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >> myself
>> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >>
>> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>> >> your
>> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >>
>> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >>
>> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>> >> 'at'
>> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >>
>> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>> >> quit
>> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>> >> to stop.
>> >
>> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
>> > to
>> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
>> > a few
>> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>> > double
>> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her
>> > will
>> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>
>> Glucose tablets.
>
> How do glucose tablets work?
>

They sweeten up sour old farts.

sharx35

02-05-2008, 03:10 AM

"JoeRaisin" <joeraisin@charter.net> wrote in message
news:5eMpj.1866$az7.1508@newsfe07.lga...
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>
>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>
>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>> Tex wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
>>>>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>>>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>>>>>>>>> heard
>>>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>>>>>>>>> Jimbo
>>>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>> a program in AA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>>>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>>>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>>>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>>>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>>>>>>> 'at'
>>>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>>>>>>> quit
>>>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>>>>>> wants to
>>>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>>>>>> after a few
>>>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>>>>>> double
>>>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
>>>>>> her will
>>>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>>>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
>>>>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
>>>> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and
>>>> caused her
>>>> to make up her mind to quit.
>>>>
>>> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
>>>
>>> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
>>> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
>>> sober using AA.
>>>
>>> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
>>> together a whole bunch of those days.
>>
>> I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".
>>
>
> But have you offered her anything in place of what she is getting from the
> drinking?
>

At the start of recovery, all should be issued an industrial-strength
vibrator--to "take the edge off".

> Its tough to say, I know you are getting some sort of benefit from this
> and you feel as though you need it - but just stop.
>
> That is what AA offered me. When I was drunk I didn't feel inadequate to
> the challenge of day-to-day life. AA showed me a way of diminishing the
> negative self perception and helped me re-build my confidence.
>
> Check the promises...

sharx35

02-05-2008, 03:11 AM

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A820D9.8C4B0B65@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >
>> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >>> Tex wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> >>>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
>> >>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>> >>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>> >>>>>>>> heard
>> >>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a
>> >>>>>>>> physician.
>> >>>>>>>> Jimbo
>> >>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >>>>>> working
>> >>>>>> a program in AA.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
>> >>>>>> avoid
>> >>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
>> >>>>>> few
>> >>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> >>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >>>>>> myself
>> >>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with
>> >>>>>> who I
>> >>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>> >>>>>> your
>> >>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>> >>>>>> reasons
>> >>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
>> >>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> >>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
>> >>>>>> off
>> >>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>> >>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
>> >>>>>> book I
>> >>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying
>> >>>>>> sober 'at'
>> >>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants'
>> >>>>>> to quit
>> >>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
>> >>>>>> her
>> >>>>>> to stop.
>> >>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>> >>>>> wants to
>> >>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>> >>>>> after a few
>> >>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>> >>>>> double
>> >>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
>> >>>>> her will
>> >>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>> >>>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
>> >>>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
>> >>> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and
>> >>> caused her
>> >>> to make up her mind to quit.
>> >>>
>> >> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
>> >>
>> >> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
>> >> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
>> >> sober using AA.
>> >>
>> >> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
>> >> together a whole bunch of those days.
>> >
>> > I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".
>> >
>>
>> But have you offered her anything in place of what she is getting from
>> the drinking?
>
> I am giving her emotional support and encouragement, and I got her husband
> to return to
> her and give her his love.

BUUUZZZZZZZZZZZ! Problem solved for her. Husband back. Goal accomplished. No
need for change.You gotta hold the carrot further away.

>
>> Its tough to say, I know you are getting some sort of benefit from this
>> and you feel as though you need it - but just stop.
>>
>> That is what AA offered me. When I was drunk I didn't feel inadequate
>> to the challenge of day-to-day life. AA showed me a way of diminishing
>> the negative self perception and helped me re-build my confidence.
>>
>> Check the promises...
>

Tex

02-05-2008, 03:44 AM

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:59:52 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>Tex wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:34:30 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >"(David P.)" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
>> >> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
>> >>
>> >> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
>> >
>> >But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?
>>
>> He's jerking your chain....a higher power or power greater than
>> oneself doesn't have to be a *god*.
>
>What kinds of non-God powers are higher or greater than oneself?
>
>I had thought that an atheist would not believe in ANY higher power!

Well ...aa suggests for a start the group itself...then there's the
doornob :) .....Alcohol is more powerful than an alcoholic atheist so
why is it difficult to imagine the atheist not being able to have a
conception of something more powerful then him or her self?

Tex

02-05-2008, 03:46 AM

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:04:56 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>Dan from Boston wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
>> > "Higher Power"?
>>
>> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
>> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
>> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
>> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.
>
>Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to attend AA
>on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being infringed?

http://www.morerevealed.com/archives/9thCircuit.pdf

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 03:48 AM

sharx35 wrote:

> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >
> >
> > "F.H." wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >
> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >> >>>>> alcohol?
> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
> >> >>>> heard
> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >> >>>> Jimbo
> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >> >>>
> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
> >> >> working
> >> >> a program in AA.
> >> >>
> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
> >> >> myself
> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >> >>
> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
> >> >> your
> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >> >>
> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >> >>
> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
> >> >> 'at'
> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >> >>
> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
> >> >> quit
> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> >> >> to stop.
> >> >
> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
> >> > to
> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
> >> > a few
> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
> >> > double
> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her
> >> > will
> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
> >>
> >> Glucose tablets.
> >
> > How do glucose tablets work?
> >
>
> They sweeten up sour old farts.

How does that reduce alcohol cravings?

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 04:00 AM

Tex wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:04:56 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Dan from Boston wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
> >> > "Higher Power"?
> >>
> >> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
> >> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
> >> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
> >> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.
> >
> >Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to attend AA
> >on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being infringed?
>
> http://www.morerevealed.com/archives/9thCircuit.pdf

Thank you for the interesting court ruling.

sharx35

02-05-2008, 04:05 AM

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A830EE.27DBC7D@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> sharx35 wrote:
>
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>> >
>> >
>> > "F.H." wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
>> >> >>>>> for
>> >> >>>>> alcohol?
>> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>> >> >>>> heard
>> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>> >> >>>> Jimbo
>> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >> >>>
>> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >> >> working
>> >> >> a program in AA.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
>> >> >> avoid
>> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
>> >> >> few
>> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >> >> myself
>> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who
>> >> >> I
>> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>> >> >> reasons
>> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>> >> >> they
>> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
>> >> >> don't
>> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
>> >> >> off
>> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>> >> >> that
>> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
>> >> >> book I
>> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>> >> >> 'at'
>> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>> >> >> quit
>> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
>> >> >> her
>> >> >> to stop.
>> >> >
>> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>> >> > wants
>> >> > to
>> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>> >> > after
>> >> > a few
>> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>> >> > double
>> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
>> >> > her
>> >> > will
>> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>> >>
>> >> Glucose tablets.
>> >
>> > How do glucose tablets work?
>> >
>>
>> They sweeten up sour old farts.
>
> How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
>

Sweet old farts or fartesses have a lesser desire to drink.

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 04:09 AM

sharx35 wrote:

> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> news:47A830EE.27DBC7D@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >
> >
> > sharx35 wrote:
> >
> >> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> >> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "F.H." wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
> >> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
> >> >> >>>>> for
> >> >> >>>>> alcohol?
> >> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
> >> >> >>>> heard
> >> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >> >> >>>> Jimbo
> >> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
> >> >> >> working
> >> >> >> a program in AA.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
> >> >> >> avoid
> >> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
> >> >> >> few
> >> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
> >> >> >> myself
> >> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who
> >> >> >> I
> >> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
> >> >> >> your
> >> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
> >> >> >> reasons
> >> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
> >> >> >> they
> >> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
> >> >> >> don't
> >> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
> >> >> >> off
> >> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
> >> >> >> book I
> >> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
> >> >> >> 'at'
> >> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
> >> >> >> quit
> >> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
> >> >> >> her
> >> >> >> to stop.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
> >> >> > wants
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
> >> >> > after
> >> >> > a few
> >> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
> >> >> > double
> >> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
> >> >> > her
> >> >> > will
> >> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
> >> >>
> >> >> Glucose tablets.
> >> >
> >> > How do glucose tablets work?
> >> >
> >>
> >> They sweeten up sour old farts.
> >
> > How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
> >
>
> Sweet old farts or fartesses have a lesser desire to drink.

Why do they have a lesser desire to drink?

sharx35

02-05-2008, 04:14 AM

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A835CB.AEAD4A41@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> sharx35 wrote:
>
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> news:47A830EE.27DBC7D@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>> >
>> >
>> > sharx35 wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> >> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "F.H." wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
>> >> >> >>>>> for
>> >> >> >>>>> alcohol?
>> >> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I
>> >> >> >>>> ever
>> >> >> >>>> heard
>> >> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a
>> >> >> >>>> physician.
>> >> >> >>>> Jimbo
>> >> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >> >> >> working
>> >> >> >> a program in AA.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
>> >> >> >> avoid
>> >> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> few
>> >> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a
>> >> >> >> new
>> >> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >> >> >> myself
>> >> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with
>> >> >> >> who
>> >> >> >> I
>> >> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered.
>> >> >> >> If
>> >> >> >> your
>> >> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>> >> >> >> reasons
>> >> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>> >> >> >> they
>> >> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
>> >> >> >> don't
>> >> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery
>> >> >> >> which
>> >> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to
>> >> >> >> stave
>> >> >> >> off
>> >> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
>> >> >> >> book I
>> >> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying
>> >> >> >> sober
>> >> >> >> 'at'
>> >> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants'
>> >> >> >> to
>> >> >> >> quit
>> >> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to
>> >> >> >> get
>> >> >> >> her
>> >> >> >> to stop.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>> >> >> > wants
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>> >> >> > after
>> >> >> > a few
>> >> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to
>> >> >> > drink
>> >> >> > double
>> >> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > her
>> >> >> > will
>> >> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Glucose tablets.
>> >> >
>> >> > How do glucose tablets work?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> They sweeten up sour old farts.
>> >
>> > How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
>> >
>>
>> Sweet old farts or fartesses have a lesser desire to drink.
>
> Why do they have a lesser desire to drink?
>

Because of the glucose pill.

Tex

02-05-2008, 04:36 AM

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 02:09:16 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>sharx35 wrote:
>
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> news:47A830EE.27DBC7D@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>> >
>> >
>> > sharx35 wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> >> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "F.H." wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
>> >> >> >>>>> for
>> >> >> >>>>> alcohol?
>> >> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>> >> >> >>>> heard
>> >> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>> >> >> >>>> Jimbo
>> >> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >> >> >>>
>> >> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >> >> >> working
>> >> >> >> a program in AA.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
>> >> >> >> avoid
>> >> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
>> >> >> >> few
>> >> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> >> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >> >> >> myself
>> >> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who
>> >> >> >> I
>> >> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>> >> >> >> your
>> >> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>> >> >> >> reasons
>> >> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>> >> >> >> they
>> >> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
>> >> >> >> don't
>> >> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> >> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
>> >> >> >> off
>> >> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>> >> >> >> that
>> >> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
>> >> >> >> book I
>> >> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>> >> >> >> 'at'
>> >> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>> >> >> >> quit
>> >> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
>> >> >> >> her
>> >> >> >> to stop.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>> >> >> > wants
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>> >> >> > after
>> >> >> > a few
>> >> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>> >> >> > double
>> >> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
>> >> >> > her
>> >> >> > will
>> >> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Glucose tablets.
>> >> >
>> >> > How do glucose tablets work?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> They sweeten up sour old farts.
>> >
>> > How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
>> >
>>
>> Sweet old farts or fartesses have a lesser desire to drink.
>
>Why do they have a lesser desire to drink?

Again you are getting your chain semi-yanked.

It's believed by some when an alcoholic withdraws from alcohol they
have cravings for sweets (sugar) and if not satisfied they drink
again. The glucose tablet will satisfy this craving for sweets and
thus a more likelyhood the person will be able to not take the drink.

(strictly layman version of the deal)

Tim Bruening

02-05-2008, 04:47 AM

sharx35 wrote:

> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> news:47A835CB.AEAD4A41@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >
> >
> > sharx35 wrote:
> >
> >> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> >> news:47A830EE.27DBC7D@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > sharx35 wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> >> >> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "F.H." wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
> >> >> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
> >> >> >> >>>>> for
> >> >> >> >>>>> alcohol?
> >> >> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I
> >> >> >> >>>> ever
> >> >> >> >>>> heard
> >> >> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a
> >> >> >> >>>> physician.
> >> >> >> >>>> Jimbo
> >> >> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
> >> >> >> >> working
> >> >> >> >> a program in AA.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
> >> >> >> >> avoid
> >> >> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to
> >> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> few
> >> >> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a
> >> >> >> >> new
> >> >> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
> >> >> >> >> myself
> >> >> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with
> >> >> >> >> who
> >> >> >> >> I
> >> >> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered.
> >> >> >> >> If
> >> >> >> >> your
> >> >> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
> >> >> >> >> reasons
> >> >> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
> >> >> >> >> they
> >> >> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
> >> >> >> >> don't
> >> >> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery
> >> >> >> >> which
> >> >> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to
> >> >> >> >> stave
> >> >> >> >> off
> >> >> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
> >> >> >> >> that
> >> >> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
> >> >> >> >> book I
> >> >> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying
> >> >> >> >> sober
> >> >> >> >> 'at'
> >> >> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants'
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> quit
> >> >> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to
> >> >> >> >> get
> >> >> >> >> her
> >> >> >> >> to stop.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
> >> >> >> > wants
> >> >> >> > to
> >> >> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
> >> >> >> > after
> >> >> >> > a few
> >> >> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to
> >> >> >> > drink
> >> >> >> > double
> >> >> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > her
> >> >> >> > will
> >> >> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Glucose tablets.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > How do glucose tablets work?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> They sweeten up sour old farts.
> >> >
> >> > How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Sweet old farts or fartesses have a lesser desire to drink.
> >
> > Why do they have a lesser desire to drink?
> >
>
> Because of the glucose pill.

How does the glucose pill reduce one's desire to drink?

JoeRaisin

02-05-2008, 05:12 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> Dan from Boston wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>> What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
>>> "Higher Power"?
>> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
>> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
>> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
>> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.
>
> To me, a "Higher Power" is something divine or spiritual, like God. I have a
> hard time regarding a group of human beings as divine or spiritual.
>

Well, then I guess it's a good thing you are not the one with the problem.

Troia

02-05-2008, 06:34 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> sharx35 wrote:
>
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> news:47A835CB.AEAD4A41@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>>>
>>> sharx35 wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>>>> news:47A830EE.27DBC7D@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>>>>>
>>>>> sharx35 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "F.H." wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>>>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I
>>>>>>>>>>>> ever
>>>>>>>>>>>> heard
>>>>>>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a
>>>>>>>>>>>> physician.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jimbo
>>>>>>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>> a program in AA.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
>>>>>>>>>> avoid
>>>>>>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a
>>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>>>>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered.
>>>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>>>>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery
>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to
>>>>>>>>>> stave
>>>>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
>>>>>>>>>> book I
>>>>>>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying
>>>>>>>>>> sober
>>>>>>>>>> 'at'
>>>>>>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants'
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> quit
>>>>>>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to
>>>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>>>>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>>> a few
>>>>>>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to
>>>>>>>>> drink
>>>>>>>>> double
>>>>>>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>>>>>>> Glucose tablets.
>>>>>>> How do glucose tablets work?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> They sweeten up sour old farts.
>>>>> How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
>>>>>
>>>> Sweet old farts or fartesses have a lesser desire to drink.
>>> Why do they have a lesser desire to drink?
>>>
>> Because of the glucose pill.
>
> How does the glucose pill reduce one's desire to drink?
>

Tim, as Tex mentioned, you're sorta getting your chain yanked.

Taking a glucose pill won't directly stop a desire to drink. However,
the metabolism of at least some alcoholics (and in this case, I've known
some personally this way) is that not drinking can lead to substantial
sugar cravings. I know a guy who couldn't keep candy in his home
because he'd find himself waking some morning with wrappers strewn all
over and evidence of over-consumption that he didn't even recall doing
"in his sleep"; he also had trouble controlling a desire to eat far too
many donuts in one sitting, as another example. (Ironically, he's a
very thin tall guy, not the sort you'd expect to binge that way.)

So presumably, taking a glucose pill -- directly ingesting sugar --
might satisfy the craving so that such folks neither binged on sweets
nor met the urge by relapsing to drinking alcohol.

If you think about it, of course, it doesn't really work in a practical
sense. For one thing, the urge for sweets, for those who have that urge
as I described, do not get it "satisfied" by a sugar pill; they'll tend
to consume every sweet thing in sight until there's nothing left, and a
sugar pill would be more likely to trigger the urge than to satisfy it.
Also, though the urge to binge on sweets shows up in such folks when
they stop drinking, the urge is not causative to alcohol consumption.

There is no magic pill that simply erases the desire to drink
completely, in part because it's not a purely physical issue; there are
patterns of thought, habits, and other factors involved in being an
alcoholic that even erasing the physical aspects of the urge simply
don't change. There is, of course, at least one pill that makes
consuming alcohol a very unpleasant experience, but results in using it
to "cure" someone of a desire to drink are limited at best; it may keep
someone from taking a drink for a specific time, but it doesn't address
the underlying causes of the alcoholism, so it really is just a sort of
short-term bandaid.

That whole "stopping drinking" thing requires some sort of commitment
and work, no magic pills to take to make it happen, whether the
treatment used is AA or another process.

Sorry, it's a lot like those folks who want to lose weight but don't
want to restrict their diet in any way nor change their lifetime habits.
One could say that taking Alli and continuing old habits will cause
weight loss, but the reality is that even if one takes it & survives the
side-effects, the moment one stops taking it (and often before) it stops
being of any use, and because habits are what they always have been,
weight will tend to be regained quickly.

Hope that clarifies, though I recognize my explanation is a bit clumsy.

-- Troia

Dan from Boston

02-05-2008, 07:19 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in the
> cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a bike.
> When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
> Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the day, as
> she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.

That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for the
program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them out
with a baseball bat.

Dan from Boston

02-05-2008, 07:22 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
> She has a sponsor, I don't know what sex.

A good general rule is that your sponsor be the same gender as yourself.
This prevents any sexual problems from arising, since newcomers are very
vunerable. "We are only human."

Biljo - what do gay AAs do about this aspect of sponsorship?

Dan from Boston

02-05-2008, 07:31 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> I had thought that an atheist would not believe in ANY higher power!

I can only speak for myself. The AA program is clearly greater than any
individual. I just don't believe in a supernatural being who somehow is
going to help me or judge me. Reason: no evidence.

But these are side issues. It sounds like your friend is on the right
track.

Dan from Boston

02-05-2008, 07:33 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to
> attend AA on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being
> infringed?

I believe they have and that this issue is in the courts right now. This
would evolve out of the common misconception that AA is a religious
program.

Even so, the idea of court ordered treatment of any kind is controversial
in my mind, even though I've know AAs who got their start with a court
order and now thank the courts for their action.

Dan from Boston

02-05-2008, 07:35 AM

"sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> At the start of recovery, all should be issued an industrial-strength
> vibrator--to "take the edge off".

Tim, Sharx is an erotomaniac and a right-wing nutcake, but when he speaks
on AA (not in this post!) he knows his stuff.

Rob D.

02-05-2008, 07:40 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:

>
> What kinds of non-God powers are higher or greater than oneself?
>
> I had thought that an atheist would not believe in ANY higher power!
>

Can you lift a car by yourself?

Could you do it with the aid of a crane?

There are many things you can do with outside help (a "higher power"
that you cannot do all by yourself.

Anyone who has a problem with alcohol who could quit or control it on
their own would do so. Some people do just that.

But if one *can't* (alcoholism), sometimes one *can*, with the aid of
someone else. If it has to be with the aid of a group, or with the aid
of the 12 steps...then those things are "higher powers" than the unaided
will alone.

Rob

Rob D.

02-05-2008, 07:42 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>

> To me, a "Higher Power" is something divine or spiritual, like God. I have a
> hard time regarding a group of human beings as divine or spiritual.
>

Divine...? No.

Spiritual? Maybe, in the sense of being in tune with their own spirits...

But a Higher Power, in AA, is what you understand it to be. You get to
define it yourself.

Rob D.

02-05-2008, 07:43 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>

> Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to attend AA
> on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being infringed?
>

Sure.

My personal opinion is that the judge who offered them an alternative to
jail, if they would take it, ought to shrug and summon the bailiff.

JimB

02-05-2008, 07:50 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> Dan from Boston wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>>> What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
>>> "Higher Power"?
>> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
>> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
>> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
>> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.
>
> Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to attend AA
> on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being infringed?
>
Ok, Bud. Your "friend" and his "wife" have gathered some info. Tommy
called it. Perhaps your time is best for puns.

Rob D.

02-05-2008, 07:50 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>

>>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>>> Glucose tablets.
>>> How do glucose tablets work?
>>>
>> They sweeten up sour old farts.
>
> How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
>

A heavy drinker is getting a LOT of carbs....so when you're craving, the
theory is PART of the craving is forf the carbs.

When I stopped drinking, I ate a ton of R**se's Pieces. It seemed to
help, but that may have been endorphines from the chocolate.

JimB

02-05-2008, 07:53 AM

F.H.

02-05-2008, 09:20 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> "F.H." wrote:
>>>Tim Bruening wrote:
>>> I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her will
>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.

>> Glucose tablets.
>
> How do glucose tablets work?

Most alcoholics are severely hypoglycemic. Some have the tendency
before they begin drinking, some develop it from drinking. Low blood
sugar has symptoms that trigger the impulse to reach for booze (or
sweets). Glucose tablets (cheap and available at most drug stores) can
stabilize blood sugar and relieve these symptoms:

Trembling, Clamminess, Palpitations, Anxiety, Sweating, Hunger,
Difficulty in thinking, Confusion.

http://fobw.tribe.net/thread/2bb9ffae-3ad7-4545-8363-85369b13ac4a

http://www.mywayout.org/community/f22/dry-drunk-syndrome-hypoglycemia-5109.html

Sean

02-05-2008, 10:38 AM

Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> sharx35 wrote:
>
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>>>
>>> "F.H." wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>>>>>>>> heard
>>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>>>>>>>> Jimbo
>>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>>>>>> working
>>>>>> a program in AA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>>>>>> myself
>>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>>>>>> 'at'
>>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>>>>>> quit
>>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
>>>>> to
>>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
>>>>> a few
>>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>>>>> double
>>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her
>>>>> will
>>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>>> Glucose tablets.
>>> How do glucose tablets work?
>>>
>> They sweeten up sour old farts.
>
> How does that reduce alcohol cravings?
>

The body converts alcohol to glycogen. The drunk's body is used to this
sugar, so part of the craving can be reduced by giving it sugar.

(David P.)

02-05-2008, 10:53 AM

Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> "(David P.)" wrote:
> > Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> > > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
> > > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
>
> > Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
>
> But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?

Suspend his disbelief, what else?
..
..
--

Tommy

02-05-2008, 02:19 PM

In news:47a857f7$0$47156$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com,
Troia <troia.legata@gmail.removethiscom> typed:lugubriously
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>
>> sharx35 wrote:
> Sorry, it's a lot like those folks who want to lose weight but don't
> want to restrict their diet in any way nor change their lifetime
> habits. One could say that taking Alli and continuing old habits
> will cause weight loss, but the reality is that even if one takes it
> & survives the side-effects, the moment one stops taking it (and
> often before) it stops being of any use, and because habits are what
> they always have been, weight will tend to be regained quickly.
>
> Hope that clarifies, though I recognize my explanation is a bit
> clumsy.
>
> -- Troia

http://preview.tinyurl.com/34gp7h

Not really clarifying a highly complicated situation where kidneys and liver
have metabolically changed over lengthy periods:
due to poor or unstable diet, excessive periods of binge drinking...

long drawn out 'aftereffects; such as hangovers and dehydration.

It is not always about 'sugar' but about how the body did or did not process
other elements when sugar is needed.

Frank is more the expert here, but sugar or lack of proper disposal in the
system is also a very high pointer in mental shall we call it instabilities,
ie, anger, low tolerance, moodswings, depressive states. I'm sure there is
a cause and effect after stopping drinking :-)

One other thing Tim, would you ever snip the irrelevant shite from your
replies. It seems you're starting to enjoy the attention you're created
with your story (sic) and these threads have a habit of escalating into one
liner replies..
Tommy
Patients with pre-diabetes who have insulin resistance can also have low
sugars on occasion if their high circulating insulin levels are further
challenged by a prolonged period of fasting. There are other rare causes for
hypoglycemia, such as insulin producing tumors (insulinomas) and certain
medications. These uncommon causes of hypoglycemia will not be discussed in
this article, which will primarily focus on the hypoglycemia occurring with
diabetes mellitus and its treatment.

Despite our advances in the treatment of diabetes, hypoglycemic episodes are
often the limiting factor in achieving optimal blood sugar control. In large
scale studies looking at tight control in both type 1 and type 2 diabetes,
low blood sugars occurred more often in the patients who were managed most
intensively. This is important for patients and physicians to recognize,
especially as the goal for treating patients with diabetes become tighter
blood sugar control.

Chronocidal Charlie

02-05-2008, 02:24 PM

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tommy wrote:

> In news:47a857f7$0$47156$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com,
> Troia <troia.legata@gmail.removethiscom> typed:lugubriously
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>
>>> sharx35 wrote:
>> Sorry,
>> Hope that clarifies, though I recognize my explanation is a bit
>> clumsy.
>>
>> -- Troia
>
> http://preview.tinyurl.com/34gp7h
>
> Not really clarifying a highly complicated situation
> Frank is more the expert here,
> One other thing Tim, would you ever snip the irrelevant shite from your
> replies. It seems you're starting to enjoy the attention you're created
> with your story (sic) and these threads have a habit of escalating into
> one liner replies..
> Tommy

Oh shite, I hope he don't see the reply I jest made to yew Tex. I never
gonna be match the piss stain he gonna spew over thet one. ;-)

CC
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0cmEbAo5QSvIgR78KyCh5t0=
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Troia

02-05-2008, 07:42 PM

Tommy wrote:
> In news:47a857f7$0$47156$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com,
> Troia <troia.legata@gmail.removethiscom> typed:lugubriously
....
>> Hope that clarifies, though I recognize my explanation is a bit
>> clumsy.

> http://preview.tinyurl.com/34gp7h
>
> Not really clarifying a highly complicated situation where kidneys and liver
> have metabolically changed over lengthy periods:
> due to poor or unstable diet, excessive periods of binge drinking...
>
> long drawn out 'aftereffects; such as hangovers and dehydration.
>
> It is not always about 'sugar' but about how the body did or did not process
> other elements when sugar is needed.
>
> Frank is more the expert here, but sugar or lack of proper disposal in the
> system is also a very high pointer in mental shall we call it instabilities,
> ie, anger, low tolerance, moodswings, depressive states. I'm sure there is
> a cause and effect after stopping drinking :-)
>

Yes, I appreciate others who have the background, going into it more
carefully and completely. It's clearly a complex issue with no one
answer that fits everyone with an alcohol problem (and I hope the OP got
the gist that it's a bit flippant to think taking a glucose pill will do
away with the desire to drink; would that it were so simple!)

Thanks for not detailing the flaws in what was a rather limited slice of
response, also only addressing one particular manifestation of the issue
in some people, and instead being much clearer about it (IMO).
*s*

-- Troia

Tim Bruening

02-06-2008, 01:56 AM

Dan from Boston wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in the
> > cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a bike.
> > When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
> > Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the day, as
> > she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.
>
> That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for the
> program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them out
> with a baseball bat.

She attended two more meetings today, then picked up her husband at the
library and went on a date.

sharx35

02-06-2008, 04:47 AM

"Dan from Boston" <danfromboston2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20080205083558.180$rS@newsreader.com...
> "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> At the start of recovery, all should be issued an industrial-strength
>> vibrator--to "take the edge off".
>
> Tim, Sharx is an erotomaniac and a right-wing nutcake, but when he speaks
> on AA (not in this post!) he knows his stuff.

Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.

Tex

02-06-2008, 09:53 AM

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 10:47:23 GMT, "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
>caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.

Explain inappropriate sexual relationships....

"We reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been
selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we
unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion or bitterness? Where were we
at fault, what should we have done instead? We got this all down on
paper and looked at it.

In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future
sex life. We subjected each relation to this test-was it selfish or
not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them.
We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore
good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and
loathed.

Whatever our ideal turns out to be, we must be willing to grow toward
it. We must be willing to make amends where we have done harm,
provided that we do not bring about still more harm in so doing. In
other words, we treat sex as we would any other problem. in
meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter.
The right answer will come, if we want it.

God alone can judge our sex situation.Counsel with other persons is
often desirable, but we let God be the final judge. We realize that
some people are as fanatical about sex as others are loose. We avoid
hysterical thinking or advice.

Suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble? Does this mean
we are going to get drunk. Some people tell us so. But this is only a
half-truth. It depends on us and on our motives. If we are sorry for
what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to
better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned
our lesson. If we are not sorry, and our conduct continues to harm
others, we are quite sure to drink. We are not theorizing. These are
facts out of our experience.

To sum up about sex: We earnestly pray for the right ideal, for
guidance in each questionable situation, for sanity, and for the
strength to do the right thing. If sex is very troublesome, we throw
ourselves the harder into helping others. We think of their needs and
work for them. This takes us out of ourselves. It quiets the imperious
urge, when to yield would mean heartache.
If we have been thorough about our personal inventory, we have written
down a lot. We have listed and analyzed our resentments. We have begun
to comprehend their futility and their fatality. We have commenced to
see their terrible destructiveness. We have begun to learn tolerance,
patience and good will toward all men, even our enemies, for we look
on them as sick people. We have listed the people we have hurt by our
conduct, and are willing to straighten out the past if we can."

Sounds like sex ain't what gets ya drunk...like anything else...it's
the individual that gets the individual drunk.

Dan from Boston

02-06-2008, 10:18 AM

"sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
> caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.

Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for at
least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
forced on us.

A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.

Rob D.

02-06-2008, 11:03 AM

Dan from Boston wrote:
> "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for at
> least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
> location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
> forced on us.
>
> A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
> program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.

I have heard this "one year" thing quite a few times. I don't think it
is a hard and fast rule that should be pushed at anyone, but it is a
good general idea.

I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
it might not be so savvy...

arioch

02-06-2008, 11:11 AM

On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 19:38:10 -0500, Tim Bruening wrote
(in article <47A50CF2.6C5C8CF5@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>):

> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> alcohol? I ask because the wife of a co-worker is severally alcoholic.
> She can't stay sober for more than a few days at a time, then drinks for
> many days. When she drinks, she turns violent, forcing her husband to
> move out. She is currently sober and relatively stable, and her husband
> ate dinner with her last night, but I would like to get her anti craving
> medicines before she drinks again and again alienates her husband!!!!!

Campral does reduce cravings. I was on it last year while I was in an
outpatient treatment program, getting into AA, finding a sponsor, and
basically getting used to going to meetings. Note that it only reduces
cravings, does not eliminate them. A helpful crutch, but only a crutch.

There is another new drug whose name escapes me. It's a once-a-month shot. It
doesn't reduce cravings. You will still get drunk, you just won't enjoy it.
It's not like Antabuse, you won't get physically ill when you drink. You just
won't enjoy being drunk somehow. My outpatient counselor was strongly urging
it on me. I would have tried it, but it was over $700/shot. Even with
insurance kicking in it was $125/shot. Plus a doctor's office visit to get
the shot. Kinda out of my price range. AA is much cheaper and more effective
in the long run.

Dan from Boston

02-06-2008, 12:06 PM

"Rob D." <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
> have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
> it might not be so savvy...

When I had a couple of years' sobriety I went to a men's meeting. The
chair/speaker was a savvy longshoreman type. He said, "Boys, don't drink,
go to meetings, and stay away from the broads." I've seen over the years
that that is excellent advice.

Troia

02-06-2008, 12:47 PM

arioch wrote:
> ...
> There is another new drug whose name escapes me. It's a once-a-month shot. It
> doesn't reduce cravings. You will still get drunk, you just won't enjoy it.
> It's not like Antabuse, you won't get physically ill when you drink. You just
> won't enjoy being drunk somehow. My outpatient counselor was strongly urging
> it on me. I would have tried it, but it was over $700/shot. Even with
> insurance kicking in it was $125/shot. Plus a doctor's office visit to get
> the shot. Kinda out of my price range. AA is much cheaper and more effective
> in the long run.
>

and helps you put in place the actual internal -changes- you need to
make for the long run.

-- Troia

brianmelcarr@googlemail.com

02-06-2008, 02:40 PM

On Feb 3, 12:38*am, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> alcohol? *I ask because the wife of a co-worker is severally alcoholic.
> She can't stay sober for more than a few days at a time, then drinks for
> many days. *When she drinks, she turns violent, forcing her husband to
> move out. *She is currently sober and relatively stable, and her husband
> ate dinner with her last night, but I would like to get her anti craving
> medicines before she drinks again and again alienates her husband!!!!!

Hi Tim

Campral is a great help but taken with all of the information in this
missive - it was meant to be two lines :)

I am sober for almost three years (April 1st was the chosen day as I
like irony) - I used Campral initially and feel I owe it my life - it
didnt say 'no drinking allowed' on the packs. If it had I would have
been compelled to have a drink just to see whether I could beat it.
Meaning the Campral and not the alcohol problem! Because I wasnt being
told not to drink (the effects are less if you do though) It was still
my choice and so I chose not too. That is the key with us alcoholics -
dont tell us what to do - if you are not one yourself you can never
understand us no matter how well intentioned you are. We all of us
want to be what you sober people would like us to be - its just not
that simple - its distressing and frustrating for everyone.

At the same time I dropped the support from people like AA and
counsellors, it was not helping me at all. Athough I am certain it
works for others so God bless them and keep them in place for those
who do benefit. I found that meetings consisted of sober people
telling me my own stories or something similar whilst looking and
sounding too removed from what I looked like or felt like. It was
surreal and so I drank after every meeting just to prove that I wasnt
one of them (irony - I am now) As far as 'Counsellors' go, they seemed
obsessed with delving into my past for my reason for drinking! Its
complete bollocks. I drank because I was ill, (still am and always
will be) finding an excuse for my drinking in order to hang the blame
on someone else is hardly helping. Who has ever had a perfect life? I
could go on a bender with the slightest provocation and if there was
none I would soon create it. They seemed disappointed that I had an
almost idyllic affluent childhood without abuse. It made me very angry
when they kept expecting me to come out with some revelation. Half the
time they looked in need of help themselves.

Sowing the seed of using Campral is the way forward with this man's
wife and more importantly do not mention the words alcoholic, problem,
or any of the negative words associated with our problem - she will
become defensive. Show love and re afirm it often. Allow her to feel
she is beating it all by herself whilst being looked on in utter
admiration. I buzzed more from people like cabbies who had previously
shovelled me in and out of their cars pissed, mentioning that I looked
well, or they hadnt picked me up from my usual haunts. When I said why
- the reaction was amazing - big tough men shaking my hand and tellng
me what a great man I was! (everyone is susceptible to booze and so
are cabbies).

Be aware that Alcoholics are not insensitive to body language nor are
we all deaf. We hate it when voices drop or shoulders are shrugged
when we are mentioned by name. That is so destructive and hurtful and
whilst wholly undersatndable, it is often used as an excuse to blame
us for everyone elses inadequacies. Just because we are alcoholics
doesnt mean we are pathetic or selfish in every situation but we are
often made scapegoats.

Assuming this lady is on Campral and trying her utmost for it to work,
she needs space to vent the frustrations that drinking could annull. I
creosoted a very long fence that didnt need creosoting and wore a dog
out, walking it as far away from people as possible. Now I dismantle
things I find and see how they work (ed) or cook things, or read or
polish things. Anything that disrupts my old routine - even turning
left at my front door on occassions of acute stress instead of right
and going the longerway to the bus stop even then I get off at
different ones. Or jump into taxis if I am approaching a particularly
attractive bar and getting out around the corner. Breaking habits,
with a reduced craving (such as Campral allows) is a good way forward.

I can go on. I wish I could because being this sober is my own finest
achievement and I hope that if someone like me can manage it so far
that better men and women than I. People who perhaps have more to gain
will do it too.

Tommy

02-06-2008, 05:42 PM

In news:47a910ae$0$47170$892e0abb@auth.newsreader.oct anews.com,
Troia <> Thanks for not detailing the flaws in what was a rather limited
slice
> of response, also only addressing one particular manifestation of the
> issue in some people, and instead being much clearer about it (IMO).
> *s*
>
>
> -- Troia

YW :)

However there are direct 'manifestations' in those other than alcoholics.

In my own travails, and in tending to those who are not addicted or
alcoholic, I've seen this occur but in mainly those who might have mental
instability. I say might have, because I am not a medico, but you know if
it walks with a quack it might be a duck :-)

The tests over here are quite expensive so it often gets overlooked.
Cheers
Tommy

DaveB

02-06-2008, 10:03 PM

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:56:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>Dan from Boston wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> > Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in the
>> > cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a bike.
>> > When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
>> > Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the day, as
>> > she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.
>>
>> That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for the
>> program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them out
>> with a baseball bat.
>
>She attended two more meetings today, then picked up her husband at the
>library and went on a date.
>
What does the husband think of her going on dates?
Daveb

Tex

02-07-2008, 12:23 AM

On 06 Feb 2008 16:18:09 GMT, danfromboston2@yahoo.com(Dan from Boston)
wrote:

>"sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
>> caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.
>
>Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for at
>least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
>location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
>forced on us.
>
>A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
>program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.

Savvy my ass....this one year shit is bullshit. What happens at the
end of a year?

It's an individual deal based on each individual .... there ain't no
cookie cutter time table for any of it.

Tex

02-07-2008, 12:50 AM

On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
<fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:

>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>it might not be so savvy...

Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
program.

Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
being 'better' or stonger or whatever.

Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.

I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
don't care to...that's fine.

Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
still standing ...

I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
lives.

sharx35

02-07-2008, 03:12 AM

"Dan from Boston" <danfromboston2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:20080206111811.234$8f@newsreader.com...
> "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
>> caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.
>
> Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for
> at
> least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
> location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
> forced on us.
>
> A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
> program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.

With VERY few exceptions, in my 27 plus years in AA, I have seen VERY few
romantic relationships, let alone marriages, between AAs last. Very rare are
the exceptions. Of course, when a sponsor mentions it, the sponsee believes
that he/she IS the exception.

sharx35

02-07-2008, 03:15 AM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1l8lq3l19f9qeqfvsr99sq1c9p5f28imkj@4ax.com...
> On 06 Feb 2008 16:18:09 GMT, danfromboston2@yahoo.com(Dan from Boston)
> wrote:
>
>>"sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
>>> caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.
>>
>>Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for
>>at
>>least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
>>location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
>>forced on us.
>>
>>A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
>>program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.
>
> Savvy my ass....this one year shit is bullshit. What happens at the
> end of a year?
>
> It's an individual deal based on each individual .... there ain't no
> cookie cutter time table for any of it.

Well, I speak out of my own experience...and observation. Obviously, no
miracle happens at the stroke of midnight on the 365th day! And obviously
not all relationships between AAs and NON-AAs are made in Heaven!!!!

sharx35

02-07-2008, 03:16 AM

<DaveB> wrote in message news:47aa82d5.18199535@news.dslextreme.com...
> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:56:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Dan from Boston wrote:
>>
>>> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>> > Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in the
>>> > cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a bike.
>>> > When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
>>> > Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the day,
>>> > as
>>> > she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.
>>>
>>> That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for
>>> the
>>> program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them
>>> out
>>> with a baseball bat.
>>
>>She attended two more meetings today, then picked up her husband at the
>>library and went on a date.
>>
> What does the husband think of her going on dates?
> Daveb

Maybe, now that she is sober she realizes that the "yardstick" that her
husband used to measure his dick was, in reality, only a 6 inch sewing
ruler!!!

Tex

02-07-2008, 03:38 AM

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:12:59 GMT, "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>"Dan from Boston" <danfromboston2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:20080206111811.234$8f@newsreader.com...
>> "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
>>> caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.
>>
>> Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for
>> at
>> least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
>> location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
>> forced on us.
>>
>> A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
>> program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.
>
>With VERY few exceptions, in my 27 plus years in AA, I have seen VERY few
>romantic relationships, let alone marriages, between AAs last. Very rare are
>the exceptions. Of course, when a sponsor mentions it, the sponsee believes
>that he/she IS the exception.
>

Last...is the measuring stick until death do us part? If that's the
case nowadays even among those not alcoholic or in the program it's
said to only be about a 50/50 chance to last.

I don't think it's a program thing...it's a deal between two
individuals.

At the last office where I last worked....1st fellow 2nd wife, 2nd
fellow 1st wife, 1st gal 1st husband, 3rd fellow gay, 2nd gal 2nd
husband, 3rd gal 1st husband, 4th fellow 2nd wife, 5th fellow looking
for 4th wife, 6th fellow 1st wife, 7th fellow not looking for 3rd
wife, 4th gal 2nd husband, 8th fellow 2nd wife......that's 12
non-alcoholics in one small office 4 gals half not with 2st husband...
8 fellows only two with 1st wife...

Hey Sharx666....I bet about 99% went into all of them expecting to be
the exception. One thing about the idea of being in fit spiritual
condition....if it works or if it doesn't .... you don't have to
drinik over it.

Tex

02-07-2008, 04:00 AM

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:15:24 GMT, "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Well, I speak out of my own experience...and observation. Obviously, no
>miracle happens at the stroke of midnight on the 365th day! And obviously
>not all relationships between AAs and NON-AAs are made in Heaven!!!!

Ok...does your experience and observation of those non-alcoholics
getting together differ so much (really)?

If some miracle took place at the stroke of midnight on the 365th
day...I'd say ok. Like you say ... it doesn't. So setting some cookie
cutter timeline is nonsense if not bullshit ...along the lines of
saying if you don't go to meetings you'll get drunk...or a half dozen
or so of other off the wall lines of bullshit Ol' Savvy A-holes put
out there and pass off as part of AA.

AA is program of recovery from alcoholism....which requires the
individual to do some things...it says do those things and sobriety
can be yours we believe because we did and it works for us. It even
says you might not get the family back if you've lost them...goes on
to talk about job or no job....

Buddy Butt

02-07-2008, 07:20 AM

"sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Savvy my ass....this one year shit is bullshit. What happens at the
> > end of a year?
> >
> > It's an individual deal based on each individual .... there ain't no
> > cookie cutter time table for any of it.
>
> Well, I speak out of my own experience...and observation. Obviously, no
> miracle happens at the stroke of midnight on the 365th day! And obviously
> not all relationships between AAs and NON-AAs are made in Heaven!!!!

Sharx, you are using logic, reality, and pertinent experience to sway a
usenet kook. Their kick is to disagree with everything and thus to gain the
attention they crave. I have a dog who is a lot smarter than Tex.

Charlie M. 1958

02-07-2008, 07:28 AM

Tex wrote:
<snip>
> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
> lives.

One thing foe sure.... The first guy who said "no dating in the first
year" had more than a year in. (Rule #973: Never make a restriction that
applies to yourself.) :-)

jimbo

02-07-2008, 08:03 AM

On Feb 7, 1:50*am, Tex <twizz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
> what it suggests you do...

Seriously, the sexual attitudes one finds in AA are cultural
attitudes. Most Americans and english Canadians look at sex with the
same arritudes as tight-arsed Protestants.

French AA, which I've attended many times in Quebec is far more social
and has much less emphasis on recovery "by the book." Most French
treat sex like the need for food or water and I know from personal
experience that scratching the itch is normal in French groups.
Jimbo

jimbo

02-07-2008, 08:09 AM

On Feb 6, 10:53*am, Tex <twizz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Explain inappropriate sexual relationships....

It doesn't meet their criteria!
Jimbo

Rob D.

02-07-2008, 10:58 AM

Tex wrote:

> Savvy my ass....this one year shit is bullshit. What happens at the
> end of a year?
>
> It's an individual deal based on each individual .... there ain't no
> cookie cutter time table for any of it.

It doesn't just apply in the program...we tend to think and live the
cycle of the year.

I have encountered this with folks grieving the death of a spouse...and
they often tell me that that first year is the hardest...

We go through all the dates important to us in a year...birthdays, both
our own and loved ones, local festivals, holidays, family gatherings, etc.

Stopping drinking is not all that different from grieving, IMNSHO...we
lose "someone" with who we have had a very significant "relationship."

Getting through that first year...I am convinced there *is* a change, a
mental adjustment we make, and I see this as a wise practice in
recovery, although not a hard and fast "rule." (There are *always*
exceptions...)

Rob

RonG

02-07-2008, 11:18 AM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even
>>then,
>>it might not be so savvy...
>
> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
> program.
>
> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>
> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>
> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
> don't care to...that's fine.
>
> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
> still standing ...
>
> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
> lives.

I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
jerk a few people around.

How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in
your life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put
the bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up
decisions because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how
to make good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it
took a while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life
that did not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse.
No, I am not trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I
made were sound but the improvement was dramatically better and took
time. If nothing else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a
few people before I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And
from my experience and that of others I have seen over the years, most
are not clear headed enough, or wise enough to think through an issue
without booze for some time before they can begin to trust their
thinking as to making sound judgments. How many do you think are able to
immediately break their self centered acting on impulse way of life
right after they get sober? Not too many I suspect.

One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected
that I thought out my revenge while drunk.

No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on
out of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard
and fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good
suggestion. Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober
for a year. Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions
as if you are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to
insure that you won't remain sober.

How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?

Salt and pepper
RonG

Tex

02-07-2008, 11:18 AM

On 07 Feb 2008 13:20:04 GMT, buddybutt@hotmail.com(Buddy Butt) wrote:

>Sharx, you are using logic, reality, and pertinent experience to sway a
>usenet kook. Their kick is to disagree with everything and thus to gain the
>attention they crave. I have a dog who is a lot smarter than Tex.

Does this mean my feelings should be hurt?.....I agree there are
plenty of dogs smarter than myself.

Does my agreement with you on the smart dog issue threaten my
promotion to 'usenet kook'?

CC can put it into words better than I can...about craving
attention...and if I've read his words with any understanding and I
understood what he was saying them I suspect anyone writing to ng's
crave some sort of attention....that most though won't own up to it.

I'm not disagreeing most relationships don't work out ... in aa or
outside aa...what I do agree with is those who pass their opinions off
as 'program' (including myself) even if based on logic, reality, and
pertinent experience are just that personal opinions not the aa
program.

Thanks for the attention Buddy Butt ... you've helped make my day.

Tex

02-07-2008, 11:32 AM

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:28:35 -0600, "Charlie M. 1958"
<charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Tex wrote:
><snip>
>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>> lives.
>
>One thing foe sure.... The first guy who said "no dating in the first
>year" had more than a year in. (Rule #973: Never make a restriction that
>applies to yourself.) :-)

Or based on logic, reality, and pertinent experience :) :) .... were
married and not getting any at home and wanted everyone else to be in
the same boat they were in. :)

I have a cat smarter than Buddy Butt....Hah ha ha ha Hah ha!

Outline to being a usenet kook....disagree with someone who has
'Years" or is an 'Ol Savvy' oldtimer.

Savvy oldtimer: One who did it this way...So this way has to be the
way....sometimes known as 'My way or the Highway' in aa and on usenet
the shorter version...'Thumps".

Tim and Lisa

02-07-2008, 11:42 AM

"RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
news:p3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>
> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>
>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>> program.
>>
>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>
>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>
>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>
>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>> still standing ...
>>
>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>> lives.
>
>
> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
> jerk a few people around.
>
> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in your
> life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put the
> bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up decisions
> because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how to make
> good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it took a
> while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life that did not
> revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse. No, I am not
> trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I made were sound
> but the improvement was dramatically better and took time. If nothing
> else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a few people before
> I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And from my experience
> and that of others I have seen over the years, most are not clear headed
> enough, or wise enough to think through an issue without booze for some
> time before they can begin to trust their thinking as to making sound
> judgments. How many do you think are able to immediately break their self
> centered acting on impulse way of life right after they get sober? Not too
> many I suspect.
>
> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking business
> was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I did not
> realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For example.
> Something would happen between me and someone which would piss me off. I
> would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while drinking, I
> would "think" about the incident and over some time I would formulate my
> revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my shot at this
> person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected that I thought out
> my revenge while drunk.
>
> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn to
> put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on out of
> impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard and fast
> about the one year deal but it does seem like a good suggestion. Most
> people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober for a year.
> Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions as if you are
> still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to insure that you
> won't remain sober.
>
> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>
> Salt and pepper
> RonG
>
>
>
>

Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and I
knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur me
in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
unselfishness that takes time...

Timburr

Charlie M. 1958

02-07-2008, 12:18 PM

RonG wrote:

> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
> jerk a few people around.
>
> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in
> your life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put
> the bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up
> decisions because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how
> to make good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it
> took a while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life
> that did not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse.
> No, I am not trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I
> made were sound but the improvement was dramatically better and took
> time. If nothing else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a
> few people before I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And
> from my experience and that of others I have seen over the years, most
> are not clear headed enough, or wise enough to think through an issue
> without booze for some time before they can begin to trust their
> thinking as to making sound judgments. How many do you think are able to
> immediately break their self centered acting on impulse way of life
> right after they get sober? Not too many I suspect.
>
> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected
> that I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>
> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on
> out of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard
> and fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good
> suggestion. Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober
> for a year. Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions
> as if you are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to
> insure that you won't remain sober.
>
> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>
> Salt and pepper
> RonG
>
>
>
>
Ron, I think you did an excellent job here of explaining the reasoning
behind the one-year no-dating suggestion. I think what Tex objects to
(because I *know* it is what I object to) is when sponsors throw that
out as an absolutely unbreakable condition of sobriety. "Go to a meeting
every day, call me every day, don't drink, and NO DATING FOR ONE YEAR!"

Like some people, when reading How it Works, change the emphasis to make
it "What? An Order??!! I can't go through with it!!"

I'd rather share with a newcomer my own experience and observations, as
you did above, and advise him to proceed with extreme caution in
relationship matters.

When I got sober, I had been separated for over a year, and for the
first 6 months it looked like there was no chance of us getting back
together. About that time, I found myself in a relationship with another
alcoholic that ended up causing a lot of grief for everyone concerned
when my wife and I reconciled.

So, on the one hand, I'm a good example of early-sobriety relationships
not being a great idea. On the other, I don't think telling an alcoholic
NOT to do something is very productive. (Especially when he/she does not
yet fully understand how that issue relates to drinking.)

Not to mention, as Tex pointed out, individuals are all different. I've
seen newly sober folks have really healthy relationships, and I've known
guys sober for 20+ years who don't have a clue how to be part of a happy
couple.

And all of this reminds me of the joke:

How can you tell when two alcoholics are on their second date? There's a
U-haul parked in the driveway. :-)

sharx35

02-08-2008, 12:16 AM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:r0jlq3909avppv6s5r8hq4jershac62uo0@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:12:59 GMT, "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dan from Boston" <danfromboston2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:20080206111811.234$8f@newsreader.com...
>>> "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Inappropriate sexual relationships, especially early in recovery, have
>>>> caused a LOT of alcoholics to go back drinking.
>>>
>>> Absolutely true. The newcomer should avoid dating within the program for
>>> at
>>> least a year, and not make any life changes during that time (job,
>>> location, marital status, etc.) -- of course, sometimes these things are
>>> forced on us.
>>>
>>> A lot of very savvy old timers recommend that we not date within the
>>> program at all. I've seen both good and bad results from this.
>>
>>With VERY few exceptions, in my 27 plus years in AA, I have seen VERY few
>>romantic relationships, let alone marriages, between AAs last. Very rare
>>are
>>the exceptions. Of course, when a sponsor mentions it, the sponsee
>>believes
>>that he/she IS the exception.
>>
>
> Last...is the measuring stick until death do us part? If that's the
> case nowadays even among those not alcoholic or in the program it's
> said to only be about a 50/50 chance to last.
>
> I don't think it's a program thing...it's a deal between two
> individuals.
>
> At the last office where I last worked....1st fellow 2nd wife, 2nd
> fellow 1st wife, 1st gal 1st husband, 3rd fellow gay, 2nd gal 2nd
> husband, 3rd gal 1st husband, 4th fellow 2nd wife, 5th fellow looking
> for 4th wife, 6th fellow 1st wife, 7th fellow not looking for 3rd
> wife, 4th gal 2nd husband, 8th fellow 2nd wife......that's 12
> non-alcoholics in one small office 4 gals half not with 2st husband...
> 8 fellows only two with 1st wife...
>
> Hey Sharx666....I bet about 99% went into all of them expecting to be
> the exception. One thing about the idea of being in fit spiritual
> condition....if it works or if it doesn't .... you don't have to
> drinik over it.

Right...as long as sobriety is the number one priority, as opposed to just
getting regularly laid.

sharx35

02-08-2008, 12:18 AM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3iklq355k4mfk16ugan4gap8pe5dsvbq1o@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 09:15:24 GMT, "sharx35" <sharx35@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Well, I speak out of my own experience...and observation. Obviously, no
>>miracle happens at the stroke of midnight on the 365th day! And obviously
>>not all relationships between AAs and NON-AAs are made in Heaven!!!!
>
> Ok...does your experience and observation of those non-alcoholics
> getting together differ so much (really)?
>
> If some miracle took place at the stroke of midnight on the 365th
> day...I'd say ok. Like you say ... it doesn't. So setting some cookie
> cutter timeline is nonsense if not bullshit ...along the lines of
> saying if you don't go to meetings you'll get drunk...or a half dozen
> or so of other off the wall lines of bullshit Ol' Savvy A-holes put
> out there and pass off as part of AA.
>
> AA is program of recovery from alcoholism....which requires the
> individual to do some things...it says do those things and sobriety
> can be yours we believe because we did and it works for us. It even
> says you might not get the family back if you've lost them...goes on
> to talk about job or no job....

Well, *some* people spend literally years before doing their FIRST 4th step,
yet don't drink. Would you tell all newcomers that they don't REALLY
**have** to do an inventory because a FEW people who don't do a 4th still
APPEAR to stay sober?

sharx35

02-08-2008, 12:19 AM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:o9emq3hlh0qr3715dh4l4bsa6jr62oo17d@4ax.com...
> On 07 Feb 2008 13:20:04 GMT, buddybutt@hotmail.com(Buddy Butt) wrote:
>
>>Sharx, you are using logic, reality, and pertinent experience to sway a
>>usenet kook. Their kick is to disagree with everything and thus to gain
>>the
>>attention they crave. I have a dog who is a lot smarter than Tex.
>
> Does this mean my feelings should be hurt?.....I agree there are
> plenty of dogs smarter than myself.
>
> Does my agreement with you on the smart dog issue threaten my
> promotion to 'usenet kook'?
>
> CC can put it into words better than I can...about craving
> attention...and if I've read his words with any understanding and I
> understood what he was saying them I suspect anyone writing to ng's
> crave some sort of attention....that most though won't own up to it.
>
> I'm not disagreeing most relationships don't work out ... in aa or
> outside aa...what I do agree with is those who pass their opinions off
> as 'program' (including myself) even if based on logic, reality, and
> pertinent experience are just that personal opinions not the aa
> program.
>
> Thanks for the attention Buddy Butt ... you've helped make my day.

There are a LOT of really smart dogs. Not fitting to use them as a
comparison!

sharx35

02-08-2008, 12:20 AM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vcfmq31ferurdf16bts6ndnjc1cio5b2hn@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 07:28:35 -0600, "Charlie M. 1958"
> <charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Tex wrote:
>><snip>
>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>> lives.
>>
>>One thing foe sure.... The first guy who said "no dating in the first
>>year" had more than a year in. (Rule #973: Never make a restriction that
>>applies to yourself.) :-)
>
> Or based on logic, reality, and pertinent experience :) :) .... were
> married and not getting any at home and wanted everyone else to be in
> the same boat they were in. :)

Speaking from personal experience, Tex?

>
> I have a cat smarter than Buddy Butt....Hah ha ha ha Hah ha!
>
> Outline to being a usenet kook....disagree with someone who has
> 'Years" or is an 'Ol Savvy' oldtimer.
>
> Savvy oldtimer: One who did it this way...So this way has to be the
> way....sometimes known as 'My way or the Highway' in aa and on usenet
> the shorter version...'Thumps".

sharx35

02-08-2008, 12:25 AM

"Charlie M. 1958" <charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13qmiprs3ibiv74@corp.supernews.com...
> RonG wrote:
>
>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>> jerk a few people around.
>>
>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in your
>> life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put the
>> bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up decisions
>> because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how to make
>> good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it took a
>> while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life that did
>> not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse. No, I am not
>> trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I made were sound
>> but the improvement was dramatically better and took time. If nothing
>> else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a few people before
>> I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And from my experience
>> and that of others I have seen over the years, most are not clear headed
>> enough, or wise enough to think through an issue without booze for some
>> time before they can begin to trust their thinking as to making sound
>> judgments. How many do you think are able to immediately break their self
>> centered acting on impulse way of life right after they get sober? Not
>> too many I suspect.
>>
>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected that
>> I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>
>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on out
>> of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard and
>> fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good suggestion.
>> Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober for a year.
>> Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions as if you
>> are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to insure that
>> you won't remain sober.
>>
>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>
>> Salt and pepper
>> RonG
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Ron, I think you did an excellent job here of explaining the reasoning
> behind the one-year no-dating suggestion. I think what Tex objects to
> (because I *know* it is what I object to) is when sponsors throw that out
> as an absolutely unbreakable condition of sobriety. "Go to a meeting every
> day, call me every day, don't drink, and NO DATING FOR ONE YEAR!"
>
> Like some people, when reading How it Works, change the emphasis to make
> it "What? An Order??!! I can't go through with it!!"
>
> I'd rather share with a newcomer my own experience and observations, as
> you did above, and advise him to proceed with extreme caution in
> relationship matters.
>
> When I got sober, I had been separated for over a year, and for the first
> 6 months it looked like there was no chance of us getting back together.
> About that time, I found myself in a relationship with another alcoholic
> that ended up causing a lot of grief for everyone concerned when my wife
> and I reconciled.
>
> So, on the one hand, I'm a good example of early-sobriety relationships
> not being a great idea. On the other, I don't think telling an alcoholic
> NOT to do something is very productive. (Especially when he/she does not
> yet fully understand how that issue relates to drinking.)
>
> Not to mention, as Tex pointed out, individuals are all different. I've
> seen newly sober folks have really healthy relationships, and I've known
> guys sober for 20+ years who don't have a clue how to be part of a happy
> couple.
>
> And all of this reminds me of the joke:
>
> How can you tell when two alcoholics are on their second date? There's a
> U-haul parked in the driveway. :-)

Exactly, but according to Tex, THEY, themselves are the best judges as to
when to rent the U-haul.

Muddle

02-08-2008, 01:02 AM

"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:47ab431e$0$6162$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>
> "RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
> news:p3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>>
>> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>>
>>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>>> program.
>>>
>>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>>
>>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>>
>>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>>
>>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>>> still standing ...
>>>
>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>> lives.
>>
>>
>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>> jerk a few people around.
>>
>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in your
>> life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put the
>> bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up decisions
>> because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how to make
>> good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it took a
>> while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life that did
>> not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse. No, I am not
>> trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I made were sound
>> but the improvement was dramatically better and took time. If nothing
>> else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a few people before
>> I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And from my experience
>> and that of others I have seen over the years, most are not clear headed
>> enough, or wise enough to think through an issue without booze for some
>> time before they can begin to trust their thinking as to making sound
>> judgments. How many do you think are able to immediately break their self
>> centered acting on impulse way of life right after they get sober? Not
>> too many I suspect.
>>
>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected that
>> I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>
>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on out
>> of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard and
>> fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good suggestion.
>> Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober for a year.
>> Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions as if you
>> are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to insure that
>> you won't remain sober.
>>
>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>
>> Salt and pepper
>> RonG
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and I
> knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur me
> in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
> unselfishness that takes time...
>
> Timburr
>

There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people have
a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.

Tim Bruening

02-08-2008, 02:23 AM

DaveB wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:56:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Dan from Boston wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >> > Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in the
> >> > cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a bike.
> >> > When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
> >> > Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the day, as
> >> > she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.
> >>
> >> That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for the
> >> program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them out
> >> with a baseball bat.
> >
> >She attended two more meetings today, then picked up her husband at the
> >library and went on a date.
> >
> What does the husband think of her going on dates?

A date WITH her husband!

sharx35

02-08-2008, 02:49 AM

"Muddle" <berniesimmons@epix.net> wrote in message
news:k8Tqj.170$kD5.2234@news1.epix.net...
>
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:47ab431e$0$6162$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
>> news:p3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>>>
>>> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>>>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>>>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>>>
>>>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>>>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>>>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>>>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>>>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>>>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>>>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>>>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>>>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>>>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>>>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>>>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>>>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>>>
>>>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>>>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>>>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>>>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>>>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>>>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>>>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>>>> still standing ...
>>>>
>>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>>> lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>>> jerk a few people around.
>>>
>>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in
>>> your life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put
>>> the bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up
>>> decisions because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how
>>> to make good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it
>>> took a while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life
>>> that did not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse.
>>> No, I am not trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I
>>> made were sound but the improvement was dramatically better and took
>>> time. If nothing else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a
>>> few people before I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And
>>> from my experience and that of others I have seen over the years, most
>>> are not clear headed enough, or wise enough to think through an issue
>>> without booze for some time before they can begin to trust their
>>> thinking as to making sound judgments. How many do you think are able to
>>> immediately break their self centered acting on impulse way of life
>>> right after they get sober? Not too many I suspect.
>>>
>>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected
>>> that I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>>
>>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on
>>> out of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard
>>> and fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good
>>> suggestion. Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober
>>> for a year. Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions
>>> as if you are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to
>>> insure that you won't remain sober.
>>>
>>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>>
>>> Salt and pepper
>>> RonG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and I
>> knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur
>> me in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
>> unselfishness that takes time...
>>
>> Timburr
>>
>
> There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
> problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
> sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
> relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
> I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
> newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people
> have a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
> concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
> couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
> are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
> really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>

Bzzzzzzz. You just lost. The significant others SHOULD be in Al-Anon.
Al-Anon was NOT created to be some kind of social auxiliary body, you know.
In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of ANY
healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both people were
alcoholics, sober or otherwise.

sharx35

02-08-2008, 02:50 AM

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47AC1180.67172D2A@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> DaveB wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:56:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Dan from Boston wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >> > Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in
>> >> > the
>> >> > cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a
>> >> > bike.
>> >> > When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
>> >> > Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the
>> >> > day, as
>> >> > she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.
>> >>
>> >> That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for
>> >> the
>> >> program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them
>> >> out
>> >> with a baseball bat.
>> >
>> >She attended two more meetings today, then picked up her husband at the
>> >library and went on a date.
>> >
>> What does the husband think of her going on dates?
>
> A date WITH her husband!
>

Who would have thunk it!?

Tex

02-08-2008, 05:03 AM

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 07:02:40 GMT, "Muddle" <berniesimmons@epix.net>
wrote:

>
>"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:47ab431e$0$6162$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
>> news:p3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>>>
>>> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>>>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>>>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>>>
>>>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>>>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>>>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>>>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>>>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>>>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>>>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>>>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>>>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>>>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>>>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>>>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>>>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>>>
>>>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>>>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>>>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>>>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>>>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>>>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>>>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>>>> still standing ...
>>>>
>>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>>> lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>>> jerk a few people around.
>>>
>>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in your
>>> life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put the
>>> bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up decisions
>>> because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how to make
>>> good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it took a
>>> while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life that did
>>> not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse. No, I am not
>>> trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I made were sound
>>> but the improvement was dramatically better and took time. If nothing
>>> else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a few people before
>>> I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And from my experience
>>> and that of others I have seen over the years, most are not clear headed
>>> enough, or wise enough to think through an issue without booze for some
>>> time before they can begin to trust their thinking as to making sound
>>> judgments. How many do you think are able to immediately break their self
>>> centered acting on impulse way of life right after they get sober? Not
>>> too many I suspect.
>>>
>>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected that
>>> I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>>
>>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on out
>>> of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard and
>>> fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good suggestion.
>>> Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober for a year.
>>> Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions as if you
>>> are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to insure that
>>> you won't remain sober.
>>>
>>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>>
>>> Salt and pepper
>>> RonG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and I
>> knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur me
>> in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
>> unselfishness that takes time...
>>
>> Timburr
>>
>
>There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
>problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
>sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
>relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
>I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
>newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people have
>a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
>concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
>couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
>are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
>really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>

Damn Muddle....you are making too much sense.

Charlie M. 1958

02-08-2008, 08:13 AM

Muddle wrote:

> There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
> problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
> sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
> relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
> I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
> newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people have
> a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
> concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
> couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
> are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
> really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>
>

And then there is the situation I've seen quite a few times where two
relative newcomers, both seemingly working the program to the best of
their abilities, hook up and things look great for a little while. Then
one of them goes back out, and the other is now facing a serious threat
to their own sobriety.

I'm all for offering my ES&H and then letting people make their own
decisions. But there are a number of ways relationships can end badly
for newcomers. Now, as it has been pointed out in this thread, *ANY*
relationship has a good chance of ending badly. The biggest difference I
can see is that when a newcomer relationship ends badly, there is a
good chance of somebody getting drunk who really needs to be staying sober.

Charlie M. 1958

02-08-2008, 08:21 AM

sharx35 wrote:

> In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of ANY
> healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both people were
> alcoholics, sober or otherwise.
>
>

You should get out more.

Of course, depending on your definition of healthy and
non-dysfunctional, I'm not sure any such marriage exists, period. :-)

Buddy Butt

02-08-2008, 09:04 AM

> >
> >
>
> And then there is the situation I've seen quite a few times where two
> relative newcomers, both seemingly working the program to the best of
> their abilities, hook up and things look great for a little while. Then
> one of them goes back out, and the other is now facing a serious threat
> to their own sobriety.
>
> I'm all for offering my ES&H and then letting people make their own
> decisions. But there are a number of ways relationships can end badly
> for newcomers. Now, as it has been pointed out in this thread, *ANY*
> relationship has a good chance of ending badly. The biggest difference I
> can see is that when a newcomer relationship ends badly, there is a
> good chance of somebody getting drunk who really needs to be staying
> sober.

That pretty much says it all.

jimbo

02-08-2008, 10:43 AM

On Feb 8, 9:13*am, "Charlie M. 1958" <charlesmarsh...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> And then there is the situation I've seen quite a few times where two
> relative newcomers, both seemingly working the program to the best of
> their abilities, hook up and things look great for a little while.

Never break them up cuz you will f*ck up 4 people.
Jimbo

Tommy

02-08-2008, 04:55 PM

In news:13qop8faq5uibec@corp.supernews.com,
Charlie M. 1958 <charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> typed:lugubriously
> sharx35 wrote:

>> In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of
>> ANY healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both
>> people were alcoholics, sober or otherwise.

> You should get out more.

> Of course, depending on your definition of healthy and
> non-dysfunctional, I'm not sure any such marriage exists, period. :-)

Heh heh, mine is ideal. We both love me :(\)

non

02-08-2008, 06:54 PM

Try marijuana, it works wonders.

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A50CF2.6C5C8CF5@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> alcohol? I ask because the wife of a co-worker is severally alcoholic.
> She can't stay sober for more than a few days at a time, then drinks for
> many days. When she drinks, she turns violent, forcing her husband to
> move out. She is currently sober and relatively stable, and her husband
> ate dinner with her last night, but I would like to get her anti craving
> medicines before she drinks again and again alienates her husband!!!!!

sharx35

02-08-2008, 08:37 PM

"Tommy" <tommyleprechaunhaha@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6144v7F1s9nlmU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:13qop8faq5uibec@corp.supernews.com,
> Charlie M. 1958 <charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> typed:lugubriously
>> sharx35 wrote:
>
>>> In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of
>>> ANY healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both
>>> people were alcoholics, sober or otherwise.
>
>> You should get out more.
>
>> Of course, depending on your definition of healthy and
>> non-dysfunctional, I'm not sure any such marriage exists, period. :-)
>
> Heh heh, mine is ideal. We both love me :(\)
>

Ah, that is probably closer to the truth for MANY on the western shore of
the Atlantic, too. Mrs. Sharx suggested that this very afternoon.

sharx35

02-08-2008, 08:48 PM

"Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:gkdoq35obp6esatta6skjrcni6nembsp6l@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 07:02:40 GMT, "Muddle" <berniesimmons@epix.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:47ab431e$0$6162$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>>
>>> "RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
>>> news:p3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>>>>
>>>> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>>>>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>>>>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even
>>>>>>then,
>>>>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>>>>
>>>>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>>>>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>>>>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>>>>> program.
>>>>>
>>>>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>>>>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>>>>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>>>>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>>>>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>>>>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>>>>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>>>>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>>>>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>>>>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>>>>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>>>>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>>>>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>>>>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>>>>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>>>>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>>>>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>>>>> still standing ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>>>> lives.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>>>> jerk a few people around.
>>>>
>>>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>>>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in
>>>> your
>>>> life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put the
>>>> bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up
>>>> decisions
>>>> because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how to make
>>>> good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it took a
>>>> while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life that did
>>>> not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse. No, I am
>>>> not
>>>> trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I made were
>>>> sound
>>>> but the improvement was dramatically better and took time. If nothing
>>>> else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a few people
>>>> before
>>>> I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And from my experience
>>>> and that of others I have seen over the years, most are not clear
>>>> headed
>>>> enough, or wise enough to think through an issue without booze for some
>>>> time before they can begin to trust their thinking as to making sound
>>>> judgments. How many do you think are able to immediately break their
>>>> self
>>>> centered acting on impulse way of life right after they get sober? Not
>>>> too many I suspect.
>>>>
>>>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>>>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>>>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>>>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>>>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>>>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>>>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>>>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected
>>>> that
>>>> I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>>>
>>>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>>>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>>>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on
>>>> out
>>>> of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard and
>>>> fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good suggestion.
>>>> Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober for a year.
>>>> Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions as if you
>>>> are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to insure that
>>>> you won't remain sober.
>>>>
>>>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>>>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>>>
>>>> Salt and pepper
>>>> RonG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and
>>> I
>>> knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur
>>> me
>>> in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
>>> unselfishness that takes time...
>>>
>>> Timburr
>>>
>>
>>There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
>>problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
>>sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
>>relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
>>I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
>>newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people
>>have
>>a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
>>concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
>>couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
>>are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
>>really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>>
>
> Damn Muddle....you are making too much sense.

Being an active member of Al-Anon would give a person a LOT greater capacity
for "understanding" the alcoholic, drunk or sober.