OT Use of copyrighted material

[rosie read and post]

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((jb))))))))))))))))))))) )))
thanks for your concern, but its already been covered.

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Love cures. It cures those who give it and it cures those who receive
it.
.......................Dr. Karl Menninger

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:00:22 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>My copy of "As Bill Sees It", "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" and "Alcoholics Anonymous" (3rd
>edition) each contains the words "Copyright " and "All rights reserved".

With the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" the copyright for the first 164
pages somehow lapsed in the US (excluding the roman-numeral pages,
including "doctor's opinion").

Therefore it's entirely legal to reproduce those pages within the US.
However, the copyright remains outside of the US. Thus, there are
US-based websites which carry the text, though AAWS has done its best
to try and ensure those pages are inaccessible outside the US (rather
difficult, considering the "gobal" nature of the internet).

However, AAWS learned their lesson and so are very anal about
copyright. To my knowledge none of the other AAWS books gives
permission for reproduction.

>I am
>thinking that anyone who posts texts on this NG that comes from books that contain such words
>without first obtained the appropriate publishers permission, could, wittingly or unwittingly, be
>breaking the law.

Indeed.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

My copy of "As Bill Sees It", "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" and "Alcoholics Anonymous" (3rd
edition) each contains the words "Copyright " and "All rights reserved". "As Bill See's It" also
contains the words "No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
or transmitted in any form or by any means without the prior permission of the publisher". I am
thinking that anyone who posts texts on this NG that comes from books that contain such words
without first obtained the appropriate publishers permission, could, wittingly or unwittingly, be
breaking the law. If what I say is true, I hope that everyone who posts copyrighted texts will
think it sensible not to break the law.

Yours in friendship

JB

[JB]

Hi Blue,

I appreciate and thank you for your reply.

JB

"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:e530ae8137510606f933ca76a114c5fe@news.teranew s.com...
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:00:22 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >My copy of "As Bill Sees It", "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" and "Alcoholics Anonymous"
(3rd
> >edition) each contains the words "Copyright " and "All rights reserved".
>
> With the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" the copyright for the first 164
> pages somehow lapsed in the US (excluding the roman-numeral pages,
> including "doctor's opinion").
>
> Therefore it's entirely legal to reproduce those pages within the US.
> However, the copyright remains outside of the US. Thus, there are
> US-based websites which carry the text, though AAWS has done its best
> to try and ensure those pages are inaccessible outside the US (rather
> difficult, considering the "gobal" nature of the internet).
>
> However, AAWS learned their lesson and so are very anal about
> copyright. To my knowledge none of the other AAWS books gives
> permission for reproduction.
>
> >I am
> >thinking that anyone who posts texts on this NG that comes from books that contain such words
> >without first obtained the appropriate publishers permission, could, wittingly or unwittingly, be
> >breaking the law.
>
> Indeed.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6qBjb.31050$%C5.3263@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((jb))))))))))))))))))))) )))
> thanks for your concern, but its already been covered.
>
> --
> read and post daily, it works!
> rosie
>
> Love cures. It cures those who give it and it cures those who receive
> it.
> ......................Dr. Karl Menninger
>
If that was so at the time I posted my message, why would I have bothered to ? :^))

JB

[Bpyboy]

I'm sort of the opinion, what is the internet for? I have NEVER (yeah right)
gotten a couple tunes of the web, or taken any other material that was
copywritten.
I've only been here a couple of months (I guess about a year now?) but haven't
seen anyone trying to make any money off of quoting anything. and i think that
THAT is where you start to piss people off. Also, nearly always, I have seen
the quotes cited to the original text, volume, publish date.... So I think
it's totally legal with the proper citation. as a matter of fact, I got my
copy of the BB as a download, as I was TOTALLY broke when all this started. I
forget the source now, but it's out there.

[rosie read and post]

i've done some reading on copyright/internet/infringement etc. and it
seems that the transfer of $$$$$$$$$$$ is indeed what the "bottom line"
is..............
:)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

Love cures. It cures those who give it and it cures those who receive
it.
.......................Dr. Karl Menninger





"Bpyboy" <bpyboy@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031016162518.23654.00000413@mb-m20.aol.com...
> I'm sort of the opinion, what is the internet for? I have NEVER (yeah
right)
> gotten a couple tunes of the web, or taken any other material that was
> copywritten.
> I've only been here a couple of months (I guess about a year now?)
but haven't
> seen anyone trying to make any money off of quoting anything. and i
think that
> THAT is where you start to piss people off. Also, nearly always, I
have seen
> the quotes cited to the original text, volume, publish date.... So I
think
> it's totally legal with the proper citation. as a matter of fact, I
got my
> copy of the BB as a download, as I was TOTALLY broke when all this
started. I
> forget the source now, but it's out there.

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:50:18 -0500, "rosie read and post"
<readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote:

>i've done some reading on copyright/internet/infringement etc. and it
>seems that the transfer of $$$$$$$$$$$ is indeed what the "bottom line"
>is..............

Of course it is. It's no different with AAWS.

http://alcoholism.about.com/library/blmitch20.htm

They simply use the notion of "changing the text" as a basis for
action, however loss of revenue is what it's really about. The thing
is, it's difficult to tell to what extent copyright breach on the
internet loses revenue, however AAWS DOES have a history of pursuing
such matters.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 01:36:30 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I think it would not have been acceptable to them to see in my work
>the words "reprinted with the permission of .......... " if I hadn't obtained such permission.

Another point worth making.

--
Blue Moon

[Bobby L.]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmnav1$bf6$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Bpyboy" <bpyboy@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031016162518.23654.00000413@mb-m20.aol.com...
> > I'm sort of the opinion, what is the internet for? I have NEVER (yeah
right)
> > gotten a couple tunes of the web, or taken any other material that was
> > copywritten.
> > I've only been here a couple of months (I guess about a year now?) but
haven't
> > seen anyone trying to make any money off of quoting anything. and i
think that
> > THAT is where you start to piss people off. Also, nearly always, I have
seen
> > the quotes cited to the original text, volume, publish date.... So I
think
> > it's totally legal with the proper citation. as a matter of fact, I got
my
> > copy of the BB as a download, as I was TOTALLY broke when all this
started. I
> > forget the source now, but it's out there.
>
> Hi John,
>
> You have made me think back to when I was studying for a degree and the
times when I used to include
> in essays short sections of text from a source book for example in order
to illustrate a point
> Although the material I used was always copyrighted, my tutors considered
what I did acceptable
> provided I quoted the source. I think it would not have been acceptable
to them to see in my work
> the words "reprinted with the permission of .......... " if I hadn't
obtained such permission.
>
> Thanks for the trip down memory lane ;^))
> .
> Yours
>
> JB
>
>

Got give up that control thing.... Maybe this will help. You scholars let
me know If I do not get this right.

In the US, a copyright is good for 28 years. At that time it can be renewed
or re-copyrighted for additional 28 years. At the end of this 56 year time,
it is deemed to be part of the public domain. I might add, these copyright
laws were established based on the copyright laws of Britain. Quoting any
or all parts of the source are acceptable without the full foot/end-note
requirement you were required to provide in school, as long as credit due is
given. The requirement to foot/end-note in school is to prevent students
from taking credit for the intellectual ideas of another. Rosie
consistently identifies the source of her posts.

This is a discussion. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading. Might I suggest
if Rosie's postings bother you to such a degree that must attempt such a
poorly disguised stab, then simply stop reading them. Anything else is just
pretentious.

Bobby L

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:17:43 -0400, "Bobby L."
<BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>This is a discussion. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
>manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading.

However, "reproduced with permission" when no such permission is
apparently given seems not in-keeping with the rigorous honesty
prescribed in AA's own program.

However, to be fair, I suspect that to be oversight rather than
deliberate deception.

Of course, rigorous honesty isn't always an alcoholic's strongest
point, even Bill W had problems on that front.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Bpyboy" <bpyboy@aol.com> wrote in message news:20031016162518.23654.00000413@mb-m20.aol.com...
> I'm sort of the opinion, what is the internet for? I have NEVER (yeah right)
> gotten a couple tunes of the web, or taken any other material that was
> copywritten.
> I've only been here a couple of months (I guess about a year now?) but haven't
> seen anyone trying to make any money off of quoting anything. and i think that
> THAT is where you start to piss people off. Also, nearly always, I have seen
> the quotes cited to the original text, volume, publish date.... So I think
> it's totally legal with the proper citation. as a matter of fact, I got my
> copy of the BB as a download, as I was TOTALLY broke when all this started. I
> forget the source now, but it's out there.

Hi John,

You have made me think back to when I was studying for a degree and the times when I used to include
in essays short sections of text from a source book for example in order to illustrate a point
Although the material I used was always copyrighted, my tutors considered what I did acceptable
provided I quoted the source. I think it would not have been acceptable to them to see in my work
the words "reprinted with the permission of .......... " if I hadn't obtained such permission.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane ;^))
..
Yours

JB

[Bobby L.]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:025e2249b815e85d0a155a9a3dcae46f@news.teranew s.com...
> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:17:43 -0400, "Bobby L."
> <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >This is a discussion. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
> >manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading.
>
> However, "reproduced with permission" when no such permission is
> apparently given seems not in-keeping with the rigorous honesty
> prescribed in AA's own program.
>
> However, to be fair, I suspect that to be oversight rather than
> deliberate deception.
>
> Of course, rigorous honesty isn't always an alcoholic's strongest
> point, even Bill W had problems on that front.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Yep, that's true. It's about progress though, not perfection -- and
principals rather than personalities. People sometimes forget that in
remembering that AA has not survived not only because of Bill W but also in
spite of Bill W.

Bobby L

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a6Gjb.31912$%C5.31162@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> i've done some reading on copyright/internet/infringement etc. and it
> seems that the transfer of $$$$$$$$$$$ is indeed what the "bottom line"
> is..............
> :)

Rosie,

Having assumed that you only started to study copyright law today, I'm astounded by your ability to
master such a complex legal subject so quickly ::^))

Yours

JB

[rosie read and post]

>................... I do not regret having tried to alert her to the
> *possbility* that when she posts quotes she might be doing it in a way
that is not >legal.

jb,
thanks for your concern, but i would hardly be looking for legal advise
from you.

btw,
the "Reprinted from Living Sober, pp. 13-14, with permission of A.A.
World Services, Inc.," reference, was placed at the bottom of the
meditation, not by me, but by the source of the meditations that i use.

[rosie read and post]

>.................. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
> manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading.


YUP!

[rosie read and post]

> They simply use the notion of "changing the text" as a basis for
> action, however loss of revenue is what it's really about. The thing
> is, it's difficult to tell to what extent copyright breach on the
> internet loses revenue, however AAWS DOES have a history of pursuing
> such matters.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

BM,
chill..................its all ok!

[JB]

"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:AyGjb.3081$W77.1014@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bmnav1$bf6$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
<snip
>
> Got give up that control thing.... Maybe this will help. You scholars let
> me know If I do not get this right.
>
> In the US, a copyright is good for 28 years. At that time it can be renewed
> or re-copyrighted for additional 28 years. At the end of this 56 year time,
> it is deemed to be part of the public domain. I might add, these copyright
> laws were established based on the copyright laws of Britain. Quoting any
> or all parts of the source are acceptable without the full foot/end-note
> requirement you were required to provide in school, as long as credit due is
> given. The requirement to foot/end-note in school is to prevent students
> from taking credit for the intellectual ideas of another. Rosie
> consistently identifies the source of her posts.
>
> This is a discussion. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
> manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading. Might I suggest
> if Rosie's postings bother you to such a degree that must attempt such a
> poorly disguised stab, then simply stop reading them. Anything else is just
> pretentious.
>
> Bobby L
>
HIi

I admit that my post was aimed at Rosie but I do not regret having tried to alert her to the
*possbility* that when she posts quotes she might be doing it in a way that is not legal. Whatever
Rosie does as a result of the discussion that has taken place in this thread is her business and I
can accept.that. FWIW, I have welcomed yours, Blue Moon's and John's contributions because you've
all given me food for thought. Thank you..

Yours

JB

BTW, no-where in this thread have I said that I object to Rosie posting quotes. Come to think of
it, I don't think I've ever voiced any objections to them. On this point I could be mistaken.

[Moonraker]

"rosie read and post" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lwHjb.32059$%C5.30479@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >................... I do not regret having tried to alert her to the
> > *possbility* that when she posts quotes she might be doing it in a way
> that is not >legal.
>
> jb,
> thanks for your concern, but i would hardly be looking for legal advise
> from you.
>
> btw,
> the "Reprinted from Living Sober, pp. 13-14, with permission of A.A.
> World Services, Inc.," reference, was placed at the bottom of the
> meditation, not by me, but by the source of the meditations that i use.
>
>
>

Does the MEDITATION book give you permission to reprint from IT? Just
because they are using public domain material doesn't mean you aren't
infringing on THAT copyright.

[JB]

"rosie read and post" <readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lwHjb.32059$%C5.30479@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >................... I do not regret having tried to alert her to the
> > *possbility* that when she posts quotes she might be doing it in a way
> that is not >legal.
>
> jb,
> thanks for your concern, but i would hardly be looking for legal advise
> from you.
<snip>

Since I'm not a lawyer, you'd be wise not to :^))

JB

[pappadoc]

What happened to principles over personality?
8-)

Doc

In article <025e2249b815e85d0a155a9a3dcae46f@news.teranews.com >, Blue
Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:17:43 -0400, "Bobby L."
> <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >This is a discussion. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
> >manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading.
>
> However, "reproduced with permission" when no such permission is
> apparently given seems not in-keeping with the rigorous honesty
> prescribed in AA's own program.
>
> However, to be fair, I suspect that to be oversight rather than
> deliberate deception.
>
> Of course, rigorous honesty isn't always an alcoholic's strongest
> point, even Bill W had problems on that front.

[Gail]

Got give up that control thing.... Maybe this will help. You scholars let
me know If I do not get this right.

In the US, a copyright is good for 28 years. At that time it can be renewed
or re-copyrighted for additional 28 years. At the end of this 56 year time,
it is deemed to be part of the public domain. I might add, these copyright
laws were established based on the copyright laws of Britain. Quoting any
or all parts of the source are acceptable without the full foot/end-note
requirement you were required to provide in school, as long as credit due is
given. The requirement to foot/end-note in school is to prevent students
from taking credit for the intellectual ideas of another. Rosie
consistently identifies the source of her posts.

This is a discussion. Rosie's just reading from a book, and has the good
manners to tell us what book she from which she is reading. Might I suggest
if Rosie's postings bother you to such a degree that must attempt such a
poorly disguised stab, then simply stop reading them. Anything else is just
pretentious.

Bobby L


Well said, Bobby.
Dropped in a minute to read some of the court proceedings. Getting even more
ridiculous each time I check in for a bit to catch up. Appears this group is
getting filled up with more and judges and jurors than alkies. (so to
speak)...LOL

Best to all,
Gail

[Robert McGregor]

"Gail" <serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vouvkdo1bi8b61@corp.supernews.com...
>Appears this group is
> getting filled up with more and judges and jurors than alkies. (so to
> speak)...LOL
>

Gail, surely you're not letting competition stifle you? You are still
judging here too;-)

Bob.

[JB]

"Gail" <serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:vouvkdo1bi8b61@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
> Dropped in a minute to read some of the court proceedings. Getting even more
> ridiculous each time I check in for a bit to catch up. Appears this group is
> getting filled up with more and judges and jurors than alkies. (so to
> speak)...LOL
>
> Best to all,
> Gail

Hi Gail,

If you are saying that no judge or juror can be an alcke see

http://www.hutchnews.com/past/07-10-2003/local/local1.html

and from http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/WDBJ-7/script_archives/96/1096/101896/101896.11.htm

<snip>
"One of two black jurors on the O-J Simpson trial got the boot today- after other jurors said he
smelled of alcohol.

<snip>

Edgar Allen admitted to reporters he is an alcoholic. He was replaced with a white juror".

:^))

Best regards:

JB

[JB]

"Gail" <serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:vouvkdo1bi8b61@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>

> Well said, Bobby.
> Dropped in a minute to read some of the court proceedings. Getting even more
> ridiculous each time I check in for a bit to catch up. Appears this group is
> getting filled up with more and judges and jurors than alkies. (so to
> speak)...LOL
>
> Best to all,
> Gail

Hi Gail,

If you are saying that no judge or juror can be an alckie see

http://www.hutchnews.com/past/07-10-2003/local/local1.html

and from http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/WDBJ-7/script_archives/96/1096/101896/101896.11.htm

<snip>
"One of two black jurors on the O-J Simpson trial got the boot today- after other jurors said he
smelled of alcohol.
<snip>

Edgar Allen admitted to reporters he is an alcoholic. He was replaced with a white juror".

:^))

Best regards:

JB


PS: If this message appears twice, I'll be blaming the cat :^))

[Blue]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:00:22 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>If what I say is true, I hope that everyone who posts copyrighted texts will
>think it sensible not to break the law.
>
>Yours in friendship

There is a fair use provision under copyright law. A small passage of
a copyrighted written text for comment, education or review is
perfectly legal. Reproducing entire chapters or the whole book would
not be legal. http://fairuse.stanford.edu/

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:28:47 -0500, "rosie read and post"
<readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote:

>> They simply use the notion of "changing the text" as a basis for
>> action, however loss of revenue is what it's really about. The thing
>> is, it's difficult to tell to what extent copyright breach on the
>> internet loses revenue, however AAWS DOES have a history of pursuing
>> such matters.

>BM,
>chill..................its all ok!

I am quite chilled, thank you.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:26:29 -0500, "rosie read and post"
<readandpostREMOVE@yahoo.com> wrote:

>btw,
>the "Reprinted from Living Sober, pp. 13-14, with permission of A.A.
>World Services, Inc.," reference, was placed at the bottom of the
>meditation, not by me, but by the source of the meditations that i use.

Meaning that they have the permission! That doesn't even imply that
you have permission to reproduce their permission.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:30:52 -0500, "Gail"
<serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Appears this group is
>getting filled up with more and judges and jurors than alkies.

Is that not a judgement?

Given that no profession is immune from alcoholism, it's possible that
a judge is here.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:43:31 GMT, Blue <blueworld@westnet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:00:22 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
>>If what I say is true, I hope that everyone who posts copyrighted texts will
>>think it sensible not to break the law.
>>
>>Yours in friendship
>
> There is a fair use provision under copyright law. A small passage of
>a copyrighted written text for comment, education or review is
>perfectly legal. Reproducing entire chapters or the whole book would
>not be legal. http://fairuse.stanford.edu/

Given that much of law is open to interpretation, any "fair use" would
be very much so. In this context, whole chapters are being
reproduced... they're just short chapters.

--
Blue Moon

[Gail]

Hi Gail,

If you are saying that no judge or juror can be an alckie see


Alcoholism does not discriminate. Did you know that?

Best,
Gail

[Moonraker]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ca71947da38cced4e4236c1331cea852@news.teranew s.com...
>
> I am quite chilled, thank you.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Stirred, not shaken? ;>)

[Gail]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:30:52 -0500, "Gail"
<serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Appears this group is
>getting filled up with more and judges and jurors than alkies.

Is that not a judgement?

Sure is!! ;)

Given that no profession is immune from alcoholism, it's possible that
a judge is here.

Alcoholism does not discriminate. You know that. ;)

--
Blue Moon

[Gail]

Gail, surely you're not letting competition stifle you? You are still
judging here too;-)

Bob.


Of course I am. I am just not participating in it as much as I use to. LOL!

Best,
Gail

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:13:05 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>FWIW, I've found the discussion we've just had interesting and informative. I've also learnt from
>it. I do not think that I shall raise the subject of copyright law again.

You didn't. I did :) I just didn't anticipate that a discussion
would emerge.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Gail" <serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:vp01524pb82hbe@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Gail,
>
> If you are saying that no judge or juror can be an alckie see
>
>
> Alcoholism does not discriminate. Did you know that?
>
> Best,
> Gail

Yes thank you :^))

JB

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c79b97aa6573286b17cb24afa424674f@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 14:43:31 GMT, Blue <blueworld@westnet.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:00:22 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
> >
> >>If what I say is true, I hope that everyone who posts copyrighted texts will
> >>think it sensible not to break the law.
> >>
> >>Yours in friendship
> >
> > There is a fair use provision under copyright law. A small passage of
> >a copyrighted written text for comment, education or review is
> >perfectly legal. Reproducing entire chapters or the whole book would
> >not be legal. http://fairuse.stanford.edu/
>
> Given that much of law is open to interpretation, any "fair use" would
> be very much so. In this context, whole chapters are being
> reproduced... they're just short chapters.
>
> --
> Blue Moon


FWIW, I've found the discussion we've just had interesting and informative. I've also learnt from
it. I do not think that I shall raise the subject of copyright law again.

Yours

JB

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:167c7afaa7d7a6299b071403a013b197@news.teranew s.com...
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:13:05 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >FWIW, I've found the discussion we've just had interesting and informative. I've also learnt
from
> >it. I do not think that I shall raise the subject of copyright law again.
>
> You didn't. I did :) I just didn't anticipate that a discussion
> would emerge.
>
> --
> Blue Moon

Blue,

You're right :^)). Thanks for enabling me to see that I should not assume that I'm always
responsible/to blame for everything :^))

Best regards

JB

[Shawster]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmp3ld$1rl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:167c7afaa7d7a6299b071403a013b197@news.teranew s.com...
> > On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:13:05 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
> >
> > >FWIW, I've found the discussion we've just had interesting and
informative. I've also learnt
> from
> > >it. I do not think that I shall raise the subject of copyright law
again.
> >
> > You didn't. I did :) I just didn't anticipate that a discussion
> > would emerge.
> >
> > --
> > Blue Moon
>
> Blue,
>
> You're right :^)). Thanks for enabling me to see that I should not assume
that I'm always
> responsible/to blame for everything :^))

and you shouldn't feel intimidated not to do anything that you want to do.

>
> Best regards
>
> JB
>
>
>

[JB]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:P0_jb.161697$Of2.4363859@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bmp3ld$1rl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:167c7afaa7d7a6299b071403a013b197@news.teranew s.com...
> > > On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:13:05 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
> > >
<snip>
JB wrote:

> > Blue,
> >
> > You're right :^)). Thanks for enabling me to see that I should not assume
> that I'm always
> > responsible/to blame for everything :^))
>
Shaw wrote:

> and you shouldn't feel intimidated not to do anything that you want to do.

Shaw,

If you knew what I'd like to sometimes say and do, you might think it wise of me to not always put
thoughts into action :^))

On a serious note, your reply has reminded me of incidents that I must record in my Step 4
inventory. Many thanks.

Best regards

JB

[Shawster]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmqu7t$6cm$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:P0_jb.161697$Of2.4363859@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmp3ld$1rl$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:167c7afaa7d7a6299b071403a013b197@news.teranew s.com...
> > > > On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 17:13:05 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:
> > > >
> <snip>
> JB wrote:
>
> > > Blue,
> > >
> > > You're right :^)). Thanks for enabling me to see that I should not
assume
> > that I'm always
> > > responsible/to blame for everything :^))
> >
> Shaw wrote:
>
> > and you shouldn't feel intimidated not to do anything that you want to
do.
>
> Shaw,
>
> If you knew what I'd like to sometimes say and do, you might think it
wise of me to not always put
> thoughts into action :^))
>
> On a serious note, your reply has reminded me of incidents that I must
record in my Step 4
> inventory. Many thanks.
>

whiled you are responsible for restraint of tongue and pen... you should
never be guilted into doing something, or guilted into not doing something.

what other people think of you is none of your business.

blame? blame implies directly that there is judement, a juge, and a moral
decision that a wrong has been committed.

keep up the good work. irregardless of what some other people may feel,
uyou will know a new freedom and a new hapiness as you work the steps.


> Best regards
>
> JB
>
>
>

[JB]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:d0gkb.174844$Of2.4500459@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bmqu7t$6cm$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Shaw,
> >
> > If you knew what I'd like to sometimes say and do, you might think it
> wise of me to not always put
> > thoughts into action :^))
> >
> > On a serious note, your reply has reminded me of incidents that I must
> record in my Step 4
> > inventory. Many thanks.
> >
>
> whiled you are responsible for restraint of tongue and pen... you should
> never be guilted into doing something, or guilted into not doing something.
>
> what other people think of you is none of your business.

>
> blame? blame implies directly that there is judement, a juge, and a moral
> decision that a wrong has been committed.
>
> keep up the good work. irregardless of what some other people may feel,
> uyou will know a new freedom and a new hapiness as you work the steps.
>
Thank you Shaw.

Best regards

JB

[Shawster]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmtm0j$83o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:d0gkb.174844$Of2.4500459@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmqu7t$6cm$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > Shaw,
> > >
> > > If you knew what I'd like to sometimes say and do, you might think it
> > wise of me to not always put
> > > thoughts into action :^))
> > >
> > > On a serious note, your reply has reminded me of incidents that I must
> > record in my Step 4
> > > inventory. Many thanks.
> > >
> >
> > whiled you are responsible for restraint of tongue and pen... you should
> > never be guilted into doing something, or guilted into not doing
something.
> >
> > what other people think of you is none of your business.
>
> >
> > blame? blame implies directly that there is judement, a juge, and a
moral
> > decision that a wrong has been committed.
> >
> > keep up the good work. irregardless of what some other people may feel,
> > uyou will know a new freedom and a new hapiness as you work the steps.
> >
> Thank you Shaw.
>


So, do you have an appointment to do the fifth step?

Last night I wastalking to a friend of mine. She mentioned how she went out
a few weeks ago after 9 months. I asked her what she was going to do
different this time. She had to think. No one had said that to her before.
She said, "This time I am working the steps."

we talked for an hour about the fourth step that she was going to start last
night.

That's why I asked about your fifth step. You have been working on the
fourth for a couple of weeks now right? Having a time constrain often
motivates.

[JB]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Tkvkb.177758$Of2.4585466@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bmtm0j$83o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:d0gkb.174844$Of2.4500459@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> > >
> > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bmqu7t$6cm$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>
> > > keep up the good work. irregardless of what some other people may feel,
> > > uyou will know a new freedom and a new hapiness as you work the steps.
> > >
> > Thank you Shaw.
> >
> So, do you have an appointment to do the fifth step?
>
> Last night I wastalking to a friend of mine. She mentioned how she went out
> a few weeks ago after 9 months. I asked her what she was going to do
> different this time. She had to think. No one had said that to her before.
> She said, "This time I am working the steps."
>
> we talked for an hour about the fourth step that she was going to start last
> night.
>
> That's why I asked about your fifth step. You have been working on the
> fourth for a couple of weeks now right? Having a time constrain often
> motivates.
>
Hi again,

My Sponsor has not given me a deadline for completing work on Step 4 and to date, I have not made
assumptions about how long this person thought it should take me. FWIW, I think that two weeks
should be enough time to produce a *useful* piece of work. I say "useful" because a few days ago, I
was thinking about not telling my Sponsor that I had completed my inventory until I had put into it
everything that I could think of. I've now realised that the longer I delay putting all that I've
jotted down during these past two weeks into a list entitled "Final Draft", the more opportunities I
will have to think of more things that should go in this draft, the more likely it is that I will
consider the inventory to be never finished and the more likely it is that I will never finish it.
Another reason/excuse for not getting any further than I have is that I've been struggling to find
the right words to express how I've been affected by some of what I've listed under "Causes". My
Sponsor has recently helped me to overcome this problem.

So, Shaw, to continue being honest with you, all I'm now doing is putting off what I know I must do
if I want to continue making progress. Never before have I openly admitted this. Now, I also
openly admit that I know what I must.do :^)).

Best regards

JB
..

[Shawster]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmu28m$hkc$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:Tkvkb.177758$Of2.4585466@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmtm0j$83o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > news:d0gkb.174844$Of2.4500459@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> > > >
> > > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:bmqu7t$6cm$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> <snip>
> > > > keep up the good work. irregardless of what some other people may
feel,
> > > > uyou will know a new freedom and a new hapiness as you work the
steps.
> > > >
> > > Thank you Shaw.
> > >
> > So, do you have an appointment to do the fifth step?
> >
> > Last night I wastalking to a friend of mine. She mentioned how she went
out
> > a few weeks ago after 9 months. I asked her what she was going to do
> > different this time. She had to think. No one had said that to her
before.
> > She said, "This time I am working the steps."
> >
> > we talked for an hour about the fourth step that she was going to start
last
> > night.
> >
> > That's why I asked about your fifth step. You have been working on the
> > fourth for a couple of weeks now right? Having a time constrain often
> > motivates.
> >
> Hi again,
>
> My Sponsor has not given me a deadline for completing work on Step 4 and
to date, I have not made
> assumptions about how long this person thought it should take me. FWIW, I
think that two weeks
> should be enough time to produce a *useful* piece of work. I say "useful"
because a few days ago, I
> was thinking about not telling my Sponsor that I had completed my
inventory until I had put into it
> everything that I could think of. I've now realised that the longer I
delay putting all that I've
> jotted down during these past two weeks into a list entitled "Final
Draft", the more opportunities I
> will have to think of more things that should go in this draft, the more
likely it is that I will
> consider the inventory to be never finished and the more likely it is that
I will never finish it.
> Another reason/excuse for not getting any further than I have is that I've
been struggling to find
> the right words to express how I've been affected by some of what I've
listed under "Causes". My
> Sponsor has recently helped me to overcome this problem.
>
> So, Shaw, to continue being honest with you, all I'm now doing is putting
off what I know I must do
> if I want to continue making progress. Never before have I openly
admitted this. Now, I also
> openly admit that I know what I must.do :^)).


As drunks, we think we are alone in the world, that our problems are so
unique that no one will ever understand. Then we walk into a meeting and
find hundreds of people that have been down the same path, and have the same
experiences. We identify with people for the first time and we become a
part of. First we become part of the group, then the world.

The point is to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety.

It is a thorough inventory, not a complete one. Consider that you will do
the steps again, and at that point pick up a few things that were missed the
first time. We do the third step before the fourth. this is not your doing.

you are in the footwork business, results are a different department.

call your sponsor. 8^)

Shaw

[Moonraker]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:M9ykb.178247$Of2.4608842@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bmu28m$hkc$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > news:Tkvkb.177758$Of2.4585466@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> > >
> > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > news:bmtm0j$83o$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > >
> > > > "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:d0gkb.174844$Of2.4500459@twister.tampabay.rr. com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:bmqu7t$6cm$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > <snip>
> > > > > keep up the good work. irregardless of what some other people may
> feel,
> > > > > uyou will know a new freedom and a new hapiness as you work the
> steps.
> > > > >
> > > > Thank you Shaw.
> > > >
> > > So, do you have an appointment to do the fifth step?
> > >
> > > Last night I wastalking to a friend of mine. She mentioned how she
went
> out
> > > a few weeks ago after 9 months. I asked her what she was going to do
> > > different this time. She had to think. No one had said that to her
> before.
> > > She said, "This time I am working the steps."
> > >
> > > we talked for an hour about the fourth step that she was going to
start
> last
> > > night.
> > >
> > > That's why I asked about your fifth step. You have been working on
the
> > > fourth for a couple of weeks now right? Having a time constrain often
> > > motivates.
> > >
> > Hi again,
> >
> > My Sponsor has not given me a deadline for completing work on Step 4 and
> to date, I have not made
> > assumptions about how long this person thought it should take me. FWIW,
I
> think that two weeks
> > should be enough time to produce a *useful* piece of work. I say
"useful"
> because a few days ago, I
> > was thinking about not telling my Sponsor that I had completed my
> inventory until I had put into it
> > everything that I could think of. I've now realised that the longer I
> delay putting all that I've
> > jotted down during these past two weeks into a list entitled "Final
> Draft", the more opportunities I
> > will have to think of more things that should go in this draft, the more
> likely it is that I will
> > consider the inventory to be never finished and the more likely it is
that
> I will never finish it.
> > Another reason/excuse for not getting any further than I have is that
I've
> been struggling to find
> > the right words to express how I've been affected by some of what I've
> listed under "Causes". My
> > Sponsor has recently helped me to overcome this problem.
> >
> > So, Shaw, to continue being honest with you, all I'm now doing is
putting
> off what I know I must do
> > if I want to continue making progress. Never before have I openly
> admitted this. Now, I also
> > openly admit that I know what I must.do :^)).
>
>
> As drunks, we think we are alone in the world, that our problems are so
> unique that no one will ever understand. Then we walk into a meeting and
> find hundreds of people that have been down the same path, and have the
same
> experiences. We identify with people for the first time and we become a
> part of. First we become part of the group, then the world.
>
> The point is to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety.
>
> It is a thorough inventory, not a complete one.

May I add a couple of thoughts, please? The book says "moral inventory".
That means "truthful", not a self- assessment of one's ethical or criminal
past. Inventory also is referring to the "here and now", not asking you
to write an autobiography. One of the old timers at my home group says that
your 4th step should fit on a 3x5 index card. Writing down everything you
ever did since you reached the age of accountability may be cathartic, but
probably not germaine to a 4th step as relates to how one is "now". And
how we are "now" is what we have to change, not how we were at age 11 or
whatever.


Consider that you will do
> the steps again, and at that point pick up a few things that were missed
the
> first time. We do the third step before the fourth. this is not your
doing.
>
> you are in the footwork business, results are a different department.

Thanks! I like that quote.

>
> call your sponsor. 8^)
>
> Shaw
>
>

[Moonraker]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmuck7$45r$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Moonraker wrote:
> >
> > May I add a couple of thoughts, please? The book says "moral
inventory".
> > That means "truthful", not a self- assessment of one's ethical or
criminal
> > past. Inventory also is referring to the "here and now", not asking
you
> > to write an autobiography. One of the old timers at my home group says
that
> > your 4th step should fit on a 3x5 index card. Writing down everything
you
> > ever did since you reached the age of accountability may be cathartic,
but
> > probably not germaine to a 4th step as relates to how one is "now".
And
> > how we are "now" is what we have to change, not how we were at age 11
or
> > whatever.
> >
> Hi Moonraker,
>
> Thanks for your input. My inventory deals with issues relating to my
husband, recent experiences
> involving people I'd had to work with and friends/acquaintances, bits
about me (because how I feel
> about myself plays a part in whether or not I want to drink ) and some
wider, current issues. I'd
> welcome your comments on what I'm doing.
>
> Yours
>
> JB
>
>
First...nobody can ever tell you what is right or wrong in "your" inventory.
It is yours, uniquely. Do it how "you" want to do it, there's no "pass" or
"fail".

I always took the 4th step to mean "now" or the relatively immediate past.
Not to be a laundry list of all the mis-deeds I ever did. And it's to be
an assessment of my part in the current situation, that is, my resentments
and fears and how they affect my behavior now. ......not an autobiography.

There is a woman in my former home group who took "years" to write a 4th
step. By her own admission, she had been quite the "round heels" at the
local watering holes, being serially promiscuous with LOTS of the local
gentlemen. Her 4th step expanded into a 3" thick 3 ring binder filled with
detailed accounts of these escapades, including names, dates, and places.
She would carry this notebook around with her and as she thought of
something she needed to add, she'd write it down. Anyhow, one day she went
off and left this notebook at the local beauty shop. Several of the
beauticians and customers had menfolk who were "featured" in this 4th step.
By the time the notebook finally made it's way back to the author, it had
been read by half the county.

You probably don't want to do a 4th step like that. ;>)

[JB]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nnykb.9249$ft2.1530@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>

JB wrote:
> > > Hi again,
> > >
<snip>

> > > So, Shaw, to continue being honest with you, all I'm now doing is
> putting
> > off what I know I must do
> > > if I want to continue making progress. Never before have I openly
> > admitted this. Now, I also
> > > openly admit that I know what I must.do :^)).
> >
Shaw wrote:

<snip>
> >
> > It is a thorough inventory, not a complete one.

Moonraker wrote:
>
> May I add a couple of thoughts, please? The book says "moral inventory".
> That means "truthful", not a self- assessment of one's ethical or criminal
> past. Inventory also is referring to the "here and now", not asking you
> to write an autobiography. One of the old timers at my home group says that
> your 4th step should fit on a 3x5 index card. Writing down everything you
> ever did since you reached the age of accountability may be cathartic, but
> probably not germaine to a 4th step as relates to how one is "now". And
> how we are "now" is what we have to change, not how we were at age 11 or
> whatever.
>
Hi Moonraker,

Thanks for your input. My inventory deals with issues relating to my husband, recent experiences
involving people I'd had to work with and friends/acquaintances, bits about me (because how I feel
about myself plays a part in whether or not I want to drink ) and some wider, current issues. I'd
welcome your comments on what I'm doing.

Yours

JB

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:21:07 GMT, "Shawster"
<shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

>So, do you have an appointment to do the fifth step?
>
>Last night I wastalking to a friend of mine. She mentioned how she went out
>a few weeks ago after 9 months. I asked her what she was going to do
>different this time. She had to think. No one had said that to her before.
>She said, "This time I am working the steps."
>
>we talked for an hour about the fourth step that she was going to start last
>night.
>
>That's why I asked about your fifth step. You have been working on the
>fourth for a couple of weeks now right? Having a time constrain often
>motivates.

I wouldn't suggest even THINKING about 5th Step whilst working a 4th.
Perceived fear of the 5th could impinge the honesty with the 4th.

When I was ready for the 5th, I was ready.

--
Blue Moon

[Moonraker]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bmugjo$qgd$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:cYykb.9736$ft2.3329@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:bmuck7$45r$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > Moonraker wrote:
> > > >
> <snip>
> > There is a woman in my former home group who took "years" to write a 4th
> > step. By her own admission, she had been quite the "round heels" at
the
> > local watering holes, being serially promiscuous with LOTS of the
local
> > gentlemen. Her 4th step expanded into a 3" thick 3 ring binder filled
with
> > detailed accounts of these escapades, including names, dates, and
places.
> > She would carry this notebook around with her and as she thought of
> > something she needed to add, she'd write it down. Anyhow, one day she
went
> > off and left this notebook at the local beauty shop. Several of the
> > beauticians and customers had menfolk who were "featured" in this 4th
step.
> > By the time the notebook finally made it's way back to the author, it
had
> > been read by half the county.
> >
> > You probably don't want to do a 4th step like that. ;>)
> >
> Moonraker, *my* past life could never command such attention :^))
>
Then a 3x5 index card'll do ya. Get on with it. ;>)



> Best regards
>
> JB
>
>

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:51:18 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I
>was thinking about not telling my Sponsor that I had completed my inventory until I had put into it
>everything that I could think of. I've now realised that the longer I delay putting all that I've
>jotted down during these past two weeks into a list entitled "Final Draft", the more opportunities I
>will have to think of more things that should go in this draft, the more likely it is that I will
>consider the inventory to be never finished and the more likely it is that I will never finish it.

IMO an inventory is never "finished", and perfectionism can prohibit
an alcoholic from being able to move on ... it can lead to
procrastination. I just got as honest as I could at that time.

There's also nothing to say I can't work another 4th further down the
line. That's part of what 10 is for.

I was about 8-9 months sober when I took my 5th Step, and even then I
seemed to race ahead of others who'd been sober longer, although there
are others who do their 4th and 5th much quicker.

So it's not a race. IMO 2 weeks or even 2 months for Step 4 is not a
problem if that's what the individual needs. 2 years certainly would
be!

I took a decision fairly early on that if I have to do this thing
anyway, I might as well either try to enjoy the journey, or see what I
can learn from it.

Having worked the Steps as thoroughly as I could, I got into a slight
mind-trap of "is this all there is?" My mind wanted activity. AA
itself wasn't really helping - I was ready to do more service work,
and only my sobriety "time" was causing me to be held back by rules
("guidelines" for sobriety time). Had AA's suggested guidelines about
telephone service been applicable and enforced when Bill W was around
6 months sober, he'd have gone to the bar instead of the 'phone and
thus AA would never have existed. As such, "guidelines" are really
only guidelines - some people are still incapable of handling a coffee
commitment despite many years of not drinking.

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 13:20:57 -0400, "Moonraker"
<moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Then a 3x5 index card'll do ya. Get on with it. ;>)

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 12:25:31 -0400, "Moonraker"
<moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>First...nobody can ever tell you what is right or wrong in "your" inventory.
>It is yours, uniquely. Do it how "you" want to do it, there's no "pass" or
>"fail".

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:cYykb.9736$ft2.3329@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bmuck7$45r$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > Moonraker wrote:
> > >
<snip>
> There is a woman in my former home group who took "years" to write a 4th
> step. By her own admission, she had been quite the "round heels" at the
> local watering holes, being serially promiscuous with LOTS of the local
> gentlemen. Her 4th step expanded into a 3" thick 3 ring binder filled with
> detailed accounts of these escapades, including names, dates, and places.
> She would carry this notebook around with her and as she thought of
> something she needed to add, she'd write it down. Anyhow, one day she went
> off and left this notebook at the local beauty shop. Several of the
> beauticians and customers had menfolk who were "featured" in this 4th step.
> By the time the notebook finally made it's way back to the author, it had
> been read by half the county.
>
> You probably don't want to do a 4th step like that. ;>)
>
Moonraker, *my* past life could never command such attention :^))

Best regards

JB

[Shawster]

> >
> >
> First...nobody can ever tell you what is right or wrong in "your"
inventory.
> It is yours, uniquely. Do it how "you" want to do it, there's no "pass"
or
> "fail".
>
> I always took the 4th step to mean "now" or the relatively immediate past.
> Not to be a laundry list of all the mis-deeds I ever did. And it's to be
> an assessment of my part in the current situation, that is, my
resentments
> and fears and how they affect my behavior now. ......not an
autobiography.
>
> There is a woman in my former home group who took "years" to write a 4th
> step. By her own admission, she had been quite the "round heels" at the
> local watering holes, being serially promiscuous with LOTS of the local
> gentlemen. Her 4th step expanded into a 3" thick 3 ring binder filled
with
> detailed accounts of these escapades, including names, dates, and places.
> She would carry this notebook around with her and as she thought of
> something she needed to add, she'd write it down. Anyhow, one day she
went
> off and left this notebook at the local beauty shop. Several of the
> beauticians and customers had menfolk who were "featured" in this 4th
step.
> By the time the notebook finally made it's way back to the author, it had
> been read by half the county.
>
> You probably don't want to do a 4th step like that. ;>)




*how* to do the fourth step is clearly deliniated in the big book. So yes,
someone will tell you how to do your 4th, and thereby in effect dictate the
contents, as autobiographies and shit lists will be avoided.

If confession of sins was all that was required then we would all be free.
But that is not what we do. having a list that was *accidentally* left out
at the beauty parlor was more of an ego stroke than anything else.

and even if something happened in the past the resentment is current if it
is in the inventory. It doesn't matter if I use FIFO or FILO to manage my
inventory, inventory is inventory.

[Shawster]

> >
> > you are in the footwork business, results are a different department.
>
> Thanks! I like that quote.

I better write my book, before I give all the good stuff away ;o)

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:51:02 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I appreciate you raising this point. A few weeks ago, I discovered at a meeting, that the group
>(it was one of my home groups), was looking to fill various posts. Because I only had a few weeks
>of not drinking under my belt and had been attending AA for even fewer weeks, I was not considered
>suitable for any job other than bringing milk for our coffee :^)). At this time, my other home
>group is
>not looking for anyone to do service. I'm wondering whether what I'm supposed to understand from
>this is that there is good reason why I should at this time be more concerned with work I
>need to do on the Steps than in trying to find ways to be helpful to my groups. Any comment ?

It's not unusual for groups to be hesitant to give too much
responsibility to a newcomer to the group, particularly one who's
recently quit drinking. It's a delicate balance, as it can expose
both the group and the newcomer. After all, there is an element of
"trust" in being a trusted servant, and relatively few newcomers have
the necessary "stick-with-it-ism" ... it shouldn't be surprising how
few seem to genuinely have an honest desire to stop drinking, yet it
can be difficult to tell early on. Of those who do, defects such as
pride or ego can also get them drunk - a fearful person will often say
or do what they think another wants to hear or see, and I've never yet
met a fear-free newcomer (even those.full of the "I, and life, are
wonderful" bullshit are either terrified, delusional, or both, and not
likely to hang around).

I remember how one literature secretary position actually seemed to
pull me out of the group because I was too proud to ask for help
clearing up afterwards. I didn't drink, but I sure picked up a few
resentments! I learned a lot.

There's also a potential risk in giving too much responsibility to
someone who might be unable to handle it. For example, a newcomer
who's financially struggling is probably not the best person to take
home the money. This is the same reason for not having the same job
in 2 groups - in my old area, nobody had realised that the intergroup
treasurer was also treasurer of a group ... not until he went and
spent all the money then got drunk.

Group service positions are up to the conscience of the group. It
would be wise to attend group conscience meetings (if they have any),
and let the GSR (or secretary/leader, if there's no GSR) know you're
looking for something to do. If you're a regular, at the next round
of "rotation" you'll be in the running.

Meanwhile, it's quite feasible to adopt a self-appointed position of
"greeter", "room preparer", "washer-up", "literature assistant" or
almost anything else.

--
Blue Moon

[JB]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eedbf625a95701dd00eedcbef807fe55@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:51:18 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> Having worked the Steps as thoroughly as I could, I got into a slight
> mind-trap of "is this all there is?" My mind wanted activity. AA
> itself wasn't really helping - I was ready to do more service work,
> and only my sobriety "time" was causing me to be held back by rules
> ("guidelines" for sobriety time). Had AA's suggested guidelines about
> telephone service been applicable and enforced when Bill W was around
> 6 months sober, he'd have gone to the bar instead of the 'phone and
> thus AA would never have existed. As such, "guidelines" are really
> only guidelines - some people are still incapable of handling a coffee
> commitment despite many years of not drinking.

Blue,

I appreciate you raising this point. A few weeks ago, I discovered at a meeting, that the group
(it was one of my home groups), was looking to fill various posts. Because I only had a few weeks
of not drinking under my belt and had been attending AA for even fewer weeks, I was not considered
suitable for any job other than bringing milk for our coffee :^)). At this time, my other home
group is
not looking for anyone to do service. I'm wondering whether what I'm supposed to understand from
this is that there is good reason why I should at this time be more concerned with work I
need to do on the Steps than in trying to find ways to be helpful to my groups. Any comment ?

Yours

JB

[JB]

Blue,

Thank you for furthering my understanding.

Best regards

JB

<mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:f2b69cb4ce42fe4add686a8e5cd6dd79@news.teranew s.com...
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:51:02 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
>A few weeks ago, I discovered at a meeting, that the group
> >(it was one of my home groups), was looking to fill various posts. Because I only had a few
weeks
> >of not drinking under my belt and had been attending AA for even fewer weeks, I was not
considered
> >suitable for any job other than bringing milk for our coffee :^)). At this time, my other home
> >group is
> >not looking for anyone to do service. I'm wondering whether what I'm supposed to understand from
> >this is that there is good reason why I should at this time be more concerned with work I
> >need to do on the Steps than in trying to find ways to be helpful to my groups. Any comment ?
>
> It's not unusual for groups to be hesitant to give too much
> responsibility to a newcomer to the group, particularly one who's
> recently quit drinking. It's a delicate balance, as it can expose
> both the group and the newcomer.

<snip rest of rely>