AA Alternatives

[Stuart]

Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans each
year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest, then
the alternative progarms must be booming by now.

Any figures?

[Ken]

Stuart wrote:
> Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans each
> year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest, then
> the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
>
> Any figures?
>
Stuart,

Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus from
AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.

Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are as
accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
"alternate recovery programs."

Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one, let
me assure you that you are not."

Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have meetings
(an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure (e.g.
death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back" year
after year after year.

Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not only
that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
AA and NA intergroups do.

When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
autonomy to gain converts like AA.

People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or loneliness
among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
everything else wrong with it.

It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its front
groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from alcohol
consumption is so high.

Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank to
excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp

[Vermin]

Stuart wrote:
> Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans each
> year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest, then
> the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
>
> Any figures?

I just started Rational Recovery. No support groups, no bullying, no
daily meetings, I'm doing it........opened my eyes REAL WIDE.

I bought a $10 book locally that is now my bible.

You start a BIG PLAN, simply which is that you will NEVER use alcohol
or drugs.

Sounds scary but its not if you are sincere. Tells you how to do it.

http://www.rational.org/sitemap.php

[Stuart]

Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3dd9d$4516bb13$4396feb6$18117@DIALUPUSA.NET.. .
> Stuart wrote:
> > Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans
each
> > year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest,
then
> > the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
> >
> > Any figures?
> >
> Stuart,
>
> Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus from
> AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
> membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.
>
> Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are as
> accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
> "alternate recovery programs."
>
> Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
> doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
> statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
> dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
> And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
> abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
> accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one, let
> me assure you that you are not."
>
> Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have meetings
> (an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure (e.g.
> death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back" year
> after year after year.
>
> Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
> meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
> organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not only
> that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
> AA and NA intergroups do.
>
> When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
> psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
> into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
> autonomy to gain converts like AA.
>
> People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or loneliness
> among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
> and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
> becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
> everything else wrong with it.
>
> It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
> learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
> like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its front
> groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from alcohol
> consumption is so high.
>
> Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
> characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank to
> excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp

But you have suggested a mass exodus. Where do they go and what do they do?
I am assuming they weren't looking into AA just for interest sake? I
understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings, but
I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one session, a
book purchase etc., Any figures?

[Ken]

Stuart wrote:
> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:3dd9d$4516bb13$4396feb6$18117@DIALUPUSA.NET.. .
>> Stuart wrote:
>>> Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans
> each
>>> year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest,
> then
>>> the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
>>>
>>> Any figures?
>>>
>> Stuart,
>>
>> Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus from
>> AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
>> membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.
>>
>> Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are as
>> accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
>> "alternate recovery programs."
>>
>> Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
>> doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
>> statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
>> dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
>> And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
>> abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
>> accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one, let
>> me assure you that you are not."
>>
>> Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have meetings
>> (an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure (e.g.
>> death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back" year
>> after year after year.
>>
>> Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
>> meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
>> organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not only
>> that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
>> AA and NA intergroups do.
>>
>> When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
>> psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
>> into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
>> autonomy to gain converts like AA.
>>
>> People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or loneliness
>> among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
>> and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
>> becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
>> everything else wrong with it.
>>
>> It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
>> learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
>> like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its front
>> groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from alcohol
>> consumption is so high.
>>
>> Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
>> characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank to
>> excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.
>>
>> Ken Ragge
>> http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
>
> But you have suggested a mass exodus.

Stuart,

AA's own internal documents which show a mass exodus, 95% in one year.

> Where do they go and what do they do?

Most of them probably do what other people, what you would call
"normies" do. They have families and friends and jobs and hobbies and
etc. Or they develop them.

> I am assuming they weren't looking into AA just for interest sake?

They were looking into AA because they have been told many things that
are simply untrue about excessive drinking, like it is a disease and one
must get help to quit. Also good reasons for stopping or moderating have
been re-defined in popular culture as disease symptoms and proof of
powerlessness. And I'm not counting the ones who are sentenced by courts
across the country to attend 12-Step indoctrination.

If there was a Jaywalkers Anonymous and as much promotion of jaywalking
as a disease as their has been of excessive drinking, you would wonder
where jaywalkers go when they quit attending JA meetings.

> I
> understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings, but
> I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one session, a
> book purchase etc., Any figures?

Certainly, I'm supportive of non-12-Step groups like SOS because so many
people have been convinced they need to attend a group to resolve
drinking problems. It counteracts some of the helplessness inherent in
our culture originating with Step sources. It is nice to be able to tell
people who have become convinced by AA to believe they must attend a
group that there are other, less harmful ones, available.

I'm the one who says most people quit or moderate with _no outside
assistance whatsoever_ whether they are alcohol dependent or alcohol
abusers and that is in line with federal research.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp

[Joe Jared]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 11:59:38 -0700, Ken wrote:


> Stuart,
>
> AA's own internal documents which show a mass exodus, 95% in one year.


It's like that every year. Yet, AA thrives.

>> I
>> understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings, but
>> I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one session, a
>> book purchase etc., Any figures?
>
> Certainly, I'm supportive of non-12-Step groups like SOS because so many
> people have been convinced they need to attend a group to resolve
> drinking problems. It counteracts some of the helplessness inherent in
> our culture originating with Step sources. It is nice to be able to tell
> people who have become convinced by AA to believe they must attend a
> group that there are other, less harmful ones, available.

Helpless != powerless.

> I'm the one who says most people quit or moderate with _no outside
> assistance whatsoever_ whether they are alcohol dependent or alcohol
> abusers and that is in line with federal research.

Some can, some do, and others are just fooling themselves. Time is the
only real measure on this point.

--
http://www.oretek.com
If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

[tdwilliams777@sbcglobal.net]

Stuart wrote:
> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:3dd9d$4516bb13$4396feb6$18117@DIALUPUSA.NET.. .
> > Stuart wrote:
> > > Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans
> each
> > > year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest,
> then
> > > the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
> > >
> > > Any figures?
> > >
> > Stuart,
> >
> > Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus from
> > AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
> > membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.
> >
> > Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are as
> > accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
> > "alternate recovery programs."
> >
> > Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
> > doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
> > statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
> > dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
> > And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
> > abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
> > accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one, let
> > me assure you that you are not."
> >
> > Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have meetings
> > (an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure (e.g.
> > death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back" year
> > after year after year.
> >
> > Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
> > meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
> > organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not only
> > that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
> > AA and NA intergroups do.
> >
> > When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
> > psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
> > into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
> > autonomy to gain converts like AA.
> >
> > People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or loneliness
> > among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
> > and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
> > becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
> > everything else wrong with it.
> >
> > It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
> > learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
> > like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its front
> > groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from alcohol
> > consumption is so high.
> >
> > Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
> > characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank to
> > excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.
> >
> > Ken Ragge
> > http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
>
> But you have suggested a mass exodus. Where do they go and what do they do?
> I am assuming they weren't looking into AA just for interest sake? I
> understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings, but
> I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one session, a
> book purchase etc., Any figures?
..................................................
Stuart, I understand your supposition that aa's exodus's should or
ought to lead to former active aa's needing to move on to a different
recovery program following their departure from aa. And I believe both
you and Ken have previously read of my own personal departure from AA
in the past, in another online forum, which if I remember correctly,
confounded and or annoyed the both of you. Actually Ken and I think and
speak from different planetary spectrums since his views are
scientifically cast in titanium. But to refresh your memory, Stuart, I
for one chose the path of attaining my own detachment from aa and my
eventual self autonomy without completely dis-owning the 12 step
program's teachings altogether. And in my case I merely chose to hang
onto the non-religious spirituality which proved the only critical
aspect of the program I'd really needed while active in aa, and which I
still own with gratitude. However beyond this I've simply left the rest
of aa dogma for the remaining active aa flock to continue to lean on,
as they choose to live in their chosen certainty that their longterm
sobriety is totally dependent on their ongoing churchlike attachment to
aa and all it's cultlike entrapments.

But for me, my chosen path of stepping away from aa which I achieved by
receiving some aa de-programming thru alcohol abuse counsiling that I
undertook while I was in the process of disowning aa membership as a
necessary lifestyle has led me to the conclusion that not all
participation in differing alcohol/drug abuse programs needs to be seen
as black or white, nor to become successful as the result of any one
given set of program's beliefs and teachings. Therefore I find it's
perfectly ok to take only the necessary good from aa or that of a
conflicting recovery movement and move on with one's life in a more
healthy self-autonomous fashion.

Peace,
Tim

[DaveB]

On 27 Sep 2006 15:10:43 -0700, tdwilliams777@sbcglobal.net wrote:

>Stuart wrote:
>> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:3dd9d$4516bb13$4396feb6$18117@DIALUPUSA.NET.. .
>> > Stuart wrote:
>> > > Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans
>> each
>> > > year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest,
>> then
>> > > the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
>> > >
>> > > Any figures?
>> > >
>> > Stuart,
>> >
>> > Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus from
>> > AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
>> > membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.
>> >
>> > Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are as
>> > accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
>> > "alternate recovery programs."
>> >
>> > Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
>> > doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
>> > statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
>> > dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
>> > And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
>> > abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
>> > accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one, let
>> > me assure you that you are not."
>> >
>> > Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have meetings
>> > (an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure (e.g.
>> > death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back" year
>> > after year after year.
>> >
>> > Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
>> > meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
>> > organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not only
>> > that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
>> > AA and NA intergroups do.
>> >
>> > When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
>> > psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
>> > into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
>> > autonomy to gain converts like AA.
>> >
>> > People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or loneliness
>> > among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
>> > and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
>> > becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
>> > everything else wrong with it.
>> >
>> > It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
>> > learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
>> > like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its front
>> > groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from alcohol
>> > consumption is so high.
>> >
>> > Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
>> > characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank to
>> > excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.
>> >
>> > Ken Ragge
>> > http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
>>
>> But you have suggested a mass exodus. Where do they go and what do they do?
>> I am assuming they weren't looking into AA just for interest sake? I
>> understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings, but
>> I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one session, a
>> book purchase etc., Any figures?
>.................................................
>Stuart, I understand your supposition that aa's exodus's should or
>ought to lead to former active aa's needing to move on to a different
>recovery program following their departure from aa. And I believe both
>you and Ken have previously read of my own personal departure from AA
>in the past, in another online forum, which if I remember correctly,
>confounded and or annoyed the both of you. Actually Ken and I think and
>speak from different planetary spectrums since his views are
>scientifically cast in titanium. But to refresh your memory, Stuart, I
>for one chose the path of attaining my own detachment from aa and my
>eventual self autonomy without completely dis-owning the 12 step
>program's teachings altogether. And in my case I merely chose to hang
>onto the non-religious spirituality which proved the only critical
>aspect of the program I'd really needed while active in aa, and which I
>still own with gratitude. However beyond this I've simply left the rest
>of aa dogma for the remaining active aa flock to continue to lean on,
>as they choose to live in their chosen certainty that their longterm
>sobriety is totally dependent on their ongoing churchlike attachment to
>aa and all it's cultlike entrapments.
>
>But for me, my chosen path of stepping away from aa which I achieved by
>receiving some aa de-programming thru alcohol abuse counsiling that I
>undertook while I was in the process of disowning aa membership as a
>necessary lifestyle has led me to the conclusion that not all
>participation in differing alcohol/drug abuse programs needs to be seen
>as black or white, nor to become successful as the result of any one
>given set of program's beliefs and teachings. Therefore I find it's
>perfectly ok to take only the necessary good from aa or that of a
>conflicting recovery movement and move on with one's life in a more
>healthy self-autonomous fashion.
>
>Peace,
>Tim
>
You needed to be de-programmed from AA ? Sheesh what do you have mush
for brains ?
Daveb

[tdwilliams777@sbcglobal.net]

(DaveB) wrote:
> On 27 Sep 2006 15:10:43 -0700, tdwilliams777@sbcglobal.net wrote:
>
> >Stuart wrote:
> >> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >> news:3dd9d$4516bb13$4396feb6$18117@DIALUPUSA.NET.. .
> >> > Stuart wrote:
> >> > > Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery plans
> >> each
> >> > > year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would suggest,
> >> then
> >> > > the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
> >> > >
> >> > > Any figures?
> >> > >
> >> > Stuart,
> >> >
> >> > Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus from
> >> > AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
> >> > membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.
> >> >
> >> > Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are as
> >> > accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
> >> > "alternate recovery programs."
> >> >
> >> > Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
> >> > doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
> >> > statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
> >> > dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
> >> > And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
> >> > abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
> >> > accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one, let
> >> > me assure you that you are not."
> >> >
> >> > Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have meetings
> >> > (an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure (e.g.
> >> > death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back" year
> >> > after year after year.
> >> >
> >> > Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
> >> > meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
> >> > organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not only
> >> > that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
> >> > AA and NA intergroups do.
> >> >
> >> > When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
> >> > psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
> >> > into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
> >> > autonomy to gain converts like AA.
> >> >
> >> > People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or loneliness
> >> > among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
> >> > and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
> >> > becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
> >> > everything else wrong with it.
> >> >
> >> > It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
> >> > learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
> >> > like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its front
> >> > groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from alcohol
> >> > consumption is so high.
> >> >
> >> > Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
> >> > characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank to
> >> > excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.
> >> >
> >> > Ken Ragge
> >> > http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
> >>
> >> But you have suggested a mass exodus. Where do they go and what do they do?
> >> I am assuming they weren't looking into AA just for interest sake? I
> >> understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings, but
> >> I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one session, a
> >> book purchase etc., Any figures?
> >.................................................
> >Stuart, I understand your supposition that aa's exodus's should or
> >ought to lead to former active aa's needing to move on to a different
> >recovery program following their departure from aa. And I believe both
> >you and Ken have previously read of my own personal departure from AA
> >in the past, in another online forum, which if I remember correctly,
> >confounded and or annoyed the both of you. Actually Ken and I think and
> >speak from different planetary spectrums since his views are
> >scientifically cast in titanium. But to refresh your memory, Stuart, I
> >for one chose the path of attaining my own detachment from aa and my
> >eventual self autonomy without completely dis-owning the 12 step
> >program's teachings altogether. And in my case I merely chose to hang
> >onto the non-religious spirituality which proved the only critical
> >aspect of the program I'd really needed while active in aa, and which I
> >still own with gratitude. However beyond this I've simply left the rest
> >of aa dogma for the remaining active aa flock to continue to lean on,
> >as they choose to live in their chosen certainty that their longterm
> >sobriety is totally dependent on their ongoing churchlike attachment to
> >aa and all it's cultlike entrapments.
> >
> >But for me, my chosen path of stepping away from aa which I achieved by
> >receiving some aa de-programming thru alcohol abuse counsiling that I
> >undertook while I was in the process of disowning aa membership as a
> >necessary lifestyle has led me to the conclusion that not all
> >participation in differing alcohol/drug abuse programs needs to be seen
> >as black or white, nor to become successful as the result of any one
> >given set of program's beliefs and teachings. Therefore I find it's
> >perfectly ok to take only the necessary good from aa or that of a
> >conflicting recovery movement and move on with one's life in a more
> >healthy self-autonomous fashion.
> >
> >Peace,
> >Tim
> >
> SNIP (the TROLL bullshit.) Sheesh what do you have mush
> for brains ?
> Daveb
No.

Go fuck your latest bitch-boy,

Tim

[Stuart]

<tdwilliams777@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1159395043.844430.215450@e3g2000cwe.googlegro ups.com...
> Stuart wrote:
> > Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> > news:3dd9d$4516bb13$4396feb6$18117@DIALUPUSA.NET.. .
> > > Stuart wrote:
> > > > Anybody have any numbers on folks who enter alternative recovery
plans
> > each
> > > > year? If the exodus from AA is as massive as Ken Ragge would
suggest,
> > then
> > > > the alternative progarms must be booming by now.
> > > >
> > > > Any figures?
> > > >
> > > Stuart,
> > >
> > > Don't be silly. Where did I ever suggest there is a massive exodus
from
> > > AA into "alternative recovery plans"? It seems that you equate
> > > membership with success as a Moonie or Hari Krishna would.
> > >
> > > Certainly, I believe AA's own internal numbers on those who leave are
as
> > > accurate as anyones. But that doesn't mean anyone necessarily goes to
> > > "alternate recovery programs."
> > >
> > > Just because most people recognize AA as useless or worse and leave
> > > doesn't mean they do anything other than rely on themselves. Federal
> > > statistics show that about 70% of people who were once _alcohol
> > > dependent_ abstain or moderate with no outside assistance whatsoever.
> > > And that doesn't include those who fall under the category of _alcohol
> > > abusers_, many of whom get hoodwinked into AA, "No one gets here by
> > > accident, maybe one in a million, and if you think you are that one,
let
> > > me assure you that you are not."
> > >
> > > Even with the "alternative programs" not all of them even have
meetings
> > > (an Oxford Group idea) and of those that do, there is no pressure
(e.g.
> > > death threats) to work to convert others and to "keep coming back"
year
> > > after year after year.
> > >
> > > Why in the world should SOS, LSR, WFS or any of the others that have
> > > meetings have large memberships? When people go to one of the
> > > organizations, they are encouraged to get on with their lives. Not
only
> > > that, they don't solicit the courts for forced attendees en masse like
> > > AA and NA intergroups do.
> > >
> > > When someone goes to competent, research-based psychologists or
> > > psychiatrists ("two-hatters" are no such thing) they aren't pressured
> > > into attending any meeting, no less a meeting that will attack their
> > > autonomy to gain converts like AA.
> > >
> > > People who drink to excess because of depression, anxiety or
loneliness
> > > among other reasons find it easier to resolve the underlying problems
> > > and moderate or abstain without undergoing 12-Step indoctrination into
> > > becoming "real alcoholics" which has a high rate of suicide on top of
> > > everything else wrong with it.
> > >
> > > It is difficult to continue to drink to great excess. Ever heard of
> > > learned helplessness? It is only by people coming to believe nonsense
> > > like primary disease and powerlessness promoted by AA through its
front
> > > groups like the NCADD and Join Together that the death rate from
alcohol
> > > consumption is so high.
> > >
> > > Prior to the early 1800s, when Benjamin Rush invented the disease
> > > characterized by powerlessness, no one in colonial America ever drank
to
> > > excess for any reason other than simply because they wanted to.
> > >
> > > Ken Ragge
> > > http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp
> >
> > But you have suggested a mass exodus. Where do they go and what do they
do?
> > I am assuming they weren't looking into AA just for interest sake? I
> > understand that some of the alternatives don't entail endless meetings,
but
> > I am assuming that some initial contact could be counted ie, one
session, a
> > book purchase etc., Any figures?
> .................................................
> Stuart, I understand your supposition that aa's exodus's should or
> ought to lead to former active aa's needing to move on to a different
> recovery program following their departure from aa. And I believe both
> you and Ken have previously read of my own personal departure from AA
> in the past, in another online forum, which if I remember correctly,
> confounded and or annoyed the both of you. Actually Ken and I think and
> speak from different planetary spectrums since his views are
> scientifically cast in titanium. But to refresh your memory, Stuart, I
> for one chose the path of attaining my own detachment from aa and my
> eventual self autonomy without completely dis-owning the 12 step
> program's teachings altogether. And in my case I merely chose to hang
> onto the non-religious spirituality which proved the only critical
> aspect of the program I'd really needed while active in aa, and which I
> still own with gratitude. However beyond this I've simply left the rest
> of aa dogma for the remaining active aa flock to continue to lean on,
> as they choose to live in their chosen certainty that their longterm
> sobriety is totally dependent on their ongoing churchlike attachment to
> aa and all it's cultlike entrapments.
>
> But for me, my chosen path of stepping away from aa which I achieved by
> receiving some aa de-programming thru alcohol abuse counsiling that I
> undertook while I was in the process of disowning aa membership as a
> necessary lifestyle has led me to the conclusion that not all
> participation in differing alcohol/drug abuse programs needs to be seen
> as black or white, nor to become successful as the result of any one
> given set of program's beliefs and teachings. Therefore I find it's
> perfectly ok to take only the necessary good from aa or that of a
> conflicting recovery movement and move on with one's life in a more
> healthy self-autonomous fashion.
>
> Peace,
> Tim

Hey Tim, hows it going? I wasn't actually asserting the mass exodus was
supplementing anything else, it was more of a proposed supposition. I don't
actually know where they go, but at least in your case, you seem to be in a
pretty decent place these days. I think the question is worthy of asking,
quite frankly.
You know how I like to get Ken going;)