My name is James and Im recovering [Archive] - Drug & Alcohol Rehab Forums & News

KimStar

08-14-2006, 07:38 PM

"james" wrote:
<snip>
> I just wanted to share that if you have tried other things like just
> stopping and telling yourself in the morning that you wont drink
> anymore , it doesnt work, try Campral as an option. You also do need to
> have a little will power and want to change your life. I used to drink
> every day and now allow myself one day a week as a treat. I can also
> say that on this one day I allow myself I dont really want it. I also
> stop the medication so not to conflict on this one day.
>
> Any comments welcomed. :)

Hi James! Just one question...on the day you allow yourself a drink "as a
treat" and you say on that day you don't really "want" it, if you don't
really want it, why have it at all? If I'm dieting, which I am, and I tell
myself I'll only allow myself a dish of ice cream one day a week, and when
the day comes and I find I don't really "want" the ice cream, it's better if
I don't have it at all. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, why should I eat
something that would really be better for me not to have at all than eat
this particular thing when I have no real craving for it? Just as a matter
of principle because it's my allotted day for my "treat"? I guess I don't
subscribe to that theory.

I think it's great if you've cut down and you feel like you're doing better.
But to my understanding, there's really no such thing as an alcohol addict
that can have any amount of alcohol, ever. I congratulate you on making
headway on your drinking problem, and I encourage to stick w/ it and keep
working on it. But somehow I have the feeling you're not being completely
honest w/ yourself. Like the smoker who says he just smokes once in a while
and can quit any time. He doesn't really "need" the cigarette. Yeah? Fine
then...there's no time like today. Stop now altogether.

Also, I think there are a great many other, better ways for one to "treat"
one's self to something special and nice than a drink when one is trying to
quit drinking, and should quit because it's become a problem for him or her.

KimStar

DaveB

08-14-2006, 10:28 PM

On 14 Aug 2006 10:33:19 -0700, "james" <jamesgerman@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Hi My name is James im 34 and Im on a course of campral through my
>addiction. I have been taking this since around june 12 and I can
>honestly it has helped me. I started to drink when I was 19 through
>problems I had with my family......and over the years my consumption
>got more and more, resulting in lost days from work, not being able to
>function properly. You name it you know how it is. My better half also
>likes to drink but doesnt consider this being a problem like I do and
>has better control than me. Never craves a drink.
> I just wanted to share that if you have tried other things like just
>stopping and telling yourself in the morning that you wont drink
>anymore , it doesnt work, try Campral as an option. You also do need to
>have a little will power and want to change your life. I used to drink
>every day and now allow myself one day a week as a treat. I can also
>say that on this one day I allow myself I dont really want it. I also
>stop the medication so not to conflict on this one day.
>
>Any comments welcomed. :)
>
>regards
>James
>
Treats are good , everytime I had a treat it ended up with me loaded
looking for my next fix or drink, thats after I got out of jail.

My treat is spending a day with my grandkids clean and sober and
trying to be an example.

"Keep it Simple"

Regards

Daveb

james

08-15-2006, 03:29 AM

KimStar wrote:
> "james" wrote:
> <snip>
> > I just wanted to share that if you have tried other things like just
> > stopping and telling yourself in the morning that you wont drink
> > anymore , it doesnt work, try Campral as an option. You also do need to
> > have a little will power and want to change your life. I used to drink
> > every day and now allow myself one day a week as a treat. I can also
> > say that on this one day I allow myself I dont really want it. I also
> > stop the medication so not to conflict on this one day.
> >
> > Any comments welcomed. :)
>
> Hi James! Just one question...on the day you allow yourself a drink "as a
> treat" and you say on that day you don't really "want" it, if you don't
> really want it, why have it at all? If I'm dieting, which I am, and I tell
> myself I'll only allow myself a dish of ice cream one day a week, and when
> the day comes and I find I don't really "want" the ice cream, it's better if
> I don't have it at all. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, why should I eat
> something that would really be better for me not to have at all than eat
> this particular thing when I have no real craving for it? Just as a matter
> of principle because it's my allotted day for my "treat"? I guess I don't
> subscribe to that theory.
>
> I think it's great if you've cut down and you feel like you're doing better.
> But to my understanding, there's really no such thing as an alcohol addict
> that can have any amount of alcohol, ever. I congratulate you on making
> headway on your drinking problem, and I encourage to stick w/ it and keep
> working on it. But somehow I have the feeling you're not being completely
> honest w/ yourself. Like the smoker who says he just smokes once in a while
> and can quit any time. He doesn't really "need" the cigarette. Yeah? Fine
> then...there's no time like today. Stop now altogether.
>
> Also, I think there are a great many other, better ways for one to "treat"
> one's self to something special and nice than a drink when one is trying to
> quit drinking, and should quit because it's become a problem for him or her.
>
> KimStar

When I was suggesting treat, I was allowing myself that opportunity
that if I wanted the drink then I can have it. ( once a week) I think
that if you tell yourself that you will never drink again, or never
smoke again, or " I am on a diet, I cant have that" none of that works.
Once youve told yourself no then that to me is when you are on the road
to disaster. You have to take one day at a time. if you fall over you
get back up.Its a phscological way of not pulling down that gilloteen
on oneself. So Yes when that day comes for your treat you dont have to
have it. I would say that Im being vey honest with myself. Ive never
told myself that I shall never drink again...just not in the
consumption I did....which in effect I m dont drink at all now.

James

lestat

08-15-2006, 04:17 AM

That one day a week thing doesn't quite work. I was sober until a
friend came down and we hit the clubs. I decided one Red Death, a Long
Island, and shot of RumpleMinze would be fine since I had managed to
stay sober. Didn't work out that way. It sent me on the binge from
Hell. I've managed to get myself sober again but have learned that even
one drink doesn't work for an alcoholic.

james wrote:
> KimStar wrote:
> > "james" wrote:
> > <snip>
> > > I just wanted to share that if you have tried other things like just
> > > stopping and telling yourself in the morning that you wont drink
> > > anymore , it doesnt work, try Campral as an option. You also do need to
> > > have a little will power and want to change your life. I used to drink
> > > every day and now allow myself one day a week as a treat. I can also
> > > say that on this one day I allow myself I dont really want it. I also
> > > stop the medication so not to conflict on this one day.
> > >
> > > Any comments welcomed. :)
> >
> > Hi James! Just one question...on the day you allow yourself a drink "as a
> > treat" and you say on that day you don't really "want" it, if you don't
> > really want it, why have it at all? If I'm dieting, which I am, and I tell
> > myself I'll only allow myself a dish of ice cream one day a week, and when
> > the day comes and I find I don't really "want" the ice cream, it's better if
> > I don't have it at all. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, why should I eat
> > something that would really be better for me not to have at all than eat
> > this particular thing when I have no real craving for it? Just as a matter
> > of principle because it's my allotted day for my "treat"? I guess I don't
> > subscribe to that theory.
> >
> > I think it's great if you've cut down and you feel like you're doing better.
> > But to my understanding, there's really no such thing as an alcohol addict
> > that can have any amount of alcohol, ever. I congratulate you on making
> > headway on your drinking problem, and I encourage to stick w/ it and keep
> > working on it. But somehow I have the feeling you're not being completely
> > honest w/ yourself. Like the smoker who says he just smokes once in a while
> > and can quit any time. He doesn't really "need" the cigarette. Yeah? Fine
> > then...there's no time like today. Stop now altogether.
> >
> > Also, I think there are a great many other, better ways for one to "treat"
> > one's self to something special and nice than a drink when one is trying to
> > quit drinking, and should quit because it's become a problem for him or her.
> >
> > KimStar
>
> When I was suggesting treat, I was allowing myself that opportunity
> that if I wanted the drink then I can have it. ( once a week) I think
> that if you tell yourself that you will never drink again, or never
> smoke again, or " I am on a diet, I cant have that" none of that works.
> Once youve told yourself no then that to me is when you are on the road
> to disaster. You have to take one day at a time. if you fall over you
> get back up.Its a phscological way of not pulling down that gilloteen
> on oneself. So Yes when that day comes for your treat you dont have to
> have it. I would say that Im being vey honest with myself. Ive never
> told myself that I shall never drink again...just not in the
> consumption I did....which in effect I m dont drink at all now.
>
> James

totfit@myway.com

08-15-2006, 07:00 AM

On 15 Aug 2006 00:29:21 -0700, "james" <jamesgerman@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>KimStar wrote:
>> "james" wrote:
>> <snip>
>> > I just wanted to share that if you have tried other things like just
>> > stopping and telling yourself in the morning that you wont drink
>> > anymore , it doesnt work, try Campral as an option. You also do need to
>> > have a little will power and want to change your life. I used to drink
>> > every day and now allow myself one day a week as a treat. I can also
>> > say that on this one day I allow myself I dont really want it. I also
>> > stop the medication so not to conflict on this one day.
>> >
>> > Any comments welcomed. :)
>>
>> Hi James! Just one question...on the day you allow yourself a drink "as a
>> treat" and you say on that day you don't really "want" it, if you don't
>> really want it, why have it at all? If I'm dieting, which I am, and I tell
>> myself I'll only allow myself a dish of ice cream one day a week, and when
>> the day comes and I find I don't really "want" the ice cream, it's better if
>> I don't have it at all. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, why should I eat
>> something that would really be better for me not to have at all than eat
>> this particular thing when I have no real craving for it? Just as a matter
>> of principle because it's my allotted day for my "treat"? I guess I don't
>> subscribe to that theory.
>>
>> I think it's great if you've cut down and you feel like you're doing better.
>> But to my understanding, there's really no such thing as an alcohol addict
>> that can have any amount of alcohol, ever. I congratulate you on making
>> headway on your drinking problem, and I encourage to stick w/ it and keep
>> working on it. But somehow I have the feeling you're not being completely
>> honest w/ yourself. Like the smoker who says he just smokes once in a while
>> and can quit any time. He doesn't really "need" the cigarette. Yeah? Fine
>> then...there's no time like today. Stop now altogether.
>>
>> Also, I think there are a great many other, better ways for one to "treat"
>> one's self to something special and nice than a drink when one is trying to
>> quit drinking, and should quit because it's become a problem for him or her.
>>
>> KimStar
>
>When I was suggesting treat, I was allowing myself that opportunity
>that if I wanted the drink then I can have it. ( once a week) I think
>that if you tell yourself that you will never drink again, or never
>smoke again, or " I am on a diet, I cant have that" none of that works.
>Once youve told yourself no then that to me is when you are on the road
>to disaster. You have to take one day at a time. if you fall over you
>get back up.Its a phscological way of not pulling down that gilloteen
>on oneself. So Yes when that day comes for your treat you dont have to
>have it. I would say that Im being vey honest with myself. Ive never
>told myself that I shall never drink again...just not in the
>consumption I did....which in effect I m dont drink at all now.
>
>James

See how it works. My experience however is that disaster lies in
allowing rather than denying.

KimStar

08-15-2006, 09:45 AM

"lestat" wrote:
> That one day a week thing doesn't quite work. I was sober until a
> friend came down and we hit the clubs. I decided one Red Death, a Long
> Island, and shot of RumpleMinze would be fine since I had managed to
> stay sober. Didn't work out that way. It sent me on the binge from
> Hell. I've managed to get myself sober again but have learned that even
> one drink doesn't work for an alcoholic.

Right, what's that old expression? For an alcoholic, 1 drink is too many and
a million aren't enough.

KimStar

Joe Jared

08-15-2006, 10:21 AM

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:33:19 -0700, james wrote:

> Hi My name is James im 34 and Im on a course of campral through my
> addiction. I have been taking this since around june 12 and I can
> honestly it has helped me. I started to drink when I was 19 through
> problems I had with my family......and over the years my consumption
> got more and more, resulting in lost days from work, not being able to
> function properly. You name it you know how it is. My better half also
> likes to drink but doesnt consider this being a problem like I do and

Per http://www.campral.com/

Campral® (acamprosate calcium) Delayed-Release Tablets are FDA-approved
for the maintenance of abstinence from alcohol in patients with alcohol
dependence who are abstinent at treatment initiation.

*Treatment with Campral should be part of a comprehensive management
program that includes psychosocial support such as counseling and support
groups.

1. The act or practice of abstaining; voluntary forbearance
of any action, especially the refraining from an
indulgence of appetite, or from customary gratifications
of animal or sensual propensities. Specifically, the
practice of abstaining from intoxicating beverages, --
called also total abstinence.
1913 Webster

The abstinence from a present pleasure that offers
itself is a pain, nay, oftentimes, a very great one.
--Locke.
1913 Webster

2. The practice of self-denial by depriving one's self of
certain kinds of food or drink, especially of meat.
1913 Webster

Penance, fasts, and abstinence,
To punish bodies for the soul's offense. --Dryden.
1913 Webster

If you're a real alcoholic, your experiment is doomed from the start.
Campral is a drug designed to reduce the cravings for alcohol. Also
assumed is that you're receiving some sort of counseling and/or are
participating in a self-help or god-help group. If you're not, it's a
setup for failure. Oh and that "treat" concept. Do you honestly believe
alcohol is a treat?

--
http://www.oretek.com
If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

james

08-15-2006, 05:48 PM

Joe Jared wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:33:19 -0700, james wrote:
>
> > Hi My name is James im 34 and Im on a course of campral through my
> > addiction. I have been taking this since around june 12 and I can
> > honestly it has helped me. I started to drink when I was 19 through
> > problems I had with my family......and over the years my consumption
> > got more and more, resulting in lost days from work, not being able to
> > function properly. You name it you know how it is. My better half also
> > likes to drink but doesnt consider this being a problem like I do and
>
> Per http://www.campral.com/
>
> Campral® (acamprosate calcium) Delayed-Release Tablets are FDA-approved
> for the maintenance of abstinence from alcohol in patients with alcohol
> dependence who are abstinent at treatment initiation.
>
> *Treatment with Campral should be part of a comprehensive management
> program that includes psychosocial support such as counseling and support
> groups.
>
> 1. The act or practice of abstaining; voluntary forbearance
> of any action, especially the refraining from an
> indulgence of appetite, or from customary gratifications
> of animal or sensual propensities. Specifically, the
> practice of abstaining from intoxicating beverages, --
> called also total abstinence.
> 1913 Webster
>
> The abstinence from a present pleasure that offers
> itself is a pain, nay, oftentimes, a very great one.
> --Locke.
> 1913 Webster
>
> 2. The practice of self-denial by depriving one's self of
> certain kinds of food or drink, especially of meat.
> 1913 Webster
>
> Penance, fasts, and abstinence,
> To punish bodies for the soul's offense. --Dryden.
> 1913 Webster
>
>
> If you're a real alcoholic, your experiment is doomed from the start.
> Campral is a drug designed to reduce the cravings for alcohol. Also
> assumed is that you're receiving some sort of counseling and/or are
> participating in a self-help or god-help group. If you're not, it's a
> setup for failure. Oh and that "treat" concept. Do you honestly believe
> alcohol is a treat?
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.oretek.com
> If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
> Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

Im getting a lot of negativity about the treat concept from various
people, but very intresting reading and thankyou.
When I say treat Im merely expressing that If I want to have a
sensible drink without going Mental I can do.its like Im allowing
myself to If I want to ( maybe lost in translation)
I think That, I ....That is me, can allow myself to have drink If I
want to one a basis that I can have one and sensibly. We are all
different. I think the wheels do tend to come off the wagon when you
tell your self." Im never going to drink again" Its very difficult to
work from that.
How many alcoholics does anyone know who stops and then never has
another drink till the day they die. A bet there is not many.
Restriction doesnt work for me in the sense of saying no, but it may
for others. If I start the daily binging again then I will admit that
it didnt work...but so far so good.

DaveB

08-15-2006, 05:56 PM

On 15 Aug 2006 14:48:12 -0700, "james" <jamesgerman@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>Joe Jared wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:33:19 -0700, james wrote:
>>
>> > Hi My name is James im 34 and Im on a course of campral through my
>> > addiction. I have been taking this since around june 12 and I can
>> > honestly it has helped me. I started to drink when I was 19 through
>> > problems I had with my family......and over the years my consumption
>> > got more and more, resulting in lost days from work, not being able to
>> > function properly. You name it you know how it is. My better half also
>> > likes to drink but doesnt consider this being a problem like I do and
>>
>> Per http://www.campral.com/
>>
>> Campral=AE (acamprosate calcium) Delayed-Release Tablets are FDA-approved
>> for the maintenance of abstinence from alcohol in patients with alcohol
>> dependence who are abstinent at treatment initiation.
>>
>> *Treatment with Campral should be part of a comprehensive management
>> program that includes psychosocial support such as counseling and support
>> groups.
>>
>> 1. The act or practice of abstaining; voluntary forbearance
>> of any action, especially the refraining from an
>> indulgence of appetite, or from customary gratifications
>> of animal or sensual propensities. Specifically, the
>> practice of abstaining from intoxicating beverages, --
>> called also total abstinence.
>> 1913 Webster
>>
>> The abstinence from a present pleasure that offers
>> itself is a pain, nay, oftentimes, a very great one.
>> --Locke.
>> 1913 Webster
>>
>> 2. The practice of self-denial by depriving one's self of
>> certain kinds of food or drink, especially of meat.
>> 1913 Webster
>>
>> Penance, fasts, and abstinence,
>> To punish bodies for the soul's offense. --Dryden.
>> 1913 Webster
>>
>>
>> If you're a real alcoholic, your experiment is doomed from the start.
>> Campral is a drug designed to reduce the cravings for alcohol. Also
>> assumed is that you're receiving some sort of counseling and/or are
>> participating in a self-help or god-help group. If you're not, it's a
>> setup for failure. Oh and that "treat" concept. Do you honestly believe
>> alcohol is a treat?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.oretek.com
>> If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
>> Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/
>
>Im getting a lot of negativity about the treat concept from various
>people, but very intresting reading and thankyou.
> When I say treat Im merely expressing that If I want to have a
>sensible drink without going Mental I can do.its like Im allowing
>myself to If I want to ( maybe lost in translation)
> I think That, I ....That is me, can allow myself to have drink If I
>want to one a basis that I can have one and sensibly. We are all
>different. I think the wheels do tend to come off the wagon when you
>tell your self." Im never going to drink again" Its very difficult to
>work from that.
>How many alcoholics does anyone know who stops and then never has
>another drink till the day they die. A bet there is not many.
>Restriction doesnt work for me in the sense of saying no, but it may
>for others. If I start the daily binging again then I will admit that
>it didnt work...but so far so good.
>

I have friends that after 12-15 of being sober they decided it was ok
to have a drink now and then.

They seem to be able to do it, I doubt if I could and am not
interested in trying.

What ever works.

Best
Daveb

ByTor

08-15-2006, 06:18 PM

In article <1155678492.034817.266070@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.c om>,
jamesgerman@hotmail.com says...
>
> Joe Jared wrote:
> > On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 10:33:19 -0700, james wrote:
> >
> > > Hi My name is James im 34 and Im on a course of campral through my
> > > addiction. I have been taking this since around june 12 and I can
> > > honestly it has helped me. I started to drink when I was 19 through
> > > problems I had with my family......and over the years my consumption
> > > got more and more, resulting in lost days from work, not being able to
> > > function properly. You name it you know how it is. My better half also
> > > likes to drink but doesnt consider this being a problem like I do and
> >
> > Per http://www.campral.com/
> >
> > Campral® (acamprosate calcium) Delayed-Release Tablets are FDA-approved
> > for the maintenance of abstinence from alcohol in patients with alcohol
> > dependence who are abstinent at treatment initiation.
> >
> > *Treatment with Campral should be part of a comprehensive management
> > program that includes psychosocial support such as counseling and support
> > groups.
> >
> > 1. The act or practice of abstaining; voluntary forbearance
> > of any action, especially the refraining from an
> > indulgence of appetite, or from customary gratifications
> > of animal or sensual propensities. Specifically, the
> > practice of abstaining from intoxicating beverages, --
> > called also total abstinence.
> > 1913 Webster
> >
> > The abstinence from a present pleasure that offers
> > itself is a pain, nay, oftentimes, a very great one.
> > --Locke.
> > 1913 Webster
> >
> > 2. The practice of self-denial by depriving one's self of
> > certain kinds of food or drink, especially of meat.
> > 1913 Webster
> >
> > Penance, fasts, and abstinence,
> > To punish bodies for the soul's offense. --Dryden.
> > 1913 Webster
> >
> >
> > If you're a real alcoholic, your experiment is doomed from the start.
> > Campral is a drug designed to reduce the cravings for alcohol. Also
> > assumed is that you're receiving some sort of counseling and/or are
> > participating in a self-help or god-help group. If you're not, it's a
> > setup for failure. Oh and that "treat" concept. Do you honestly believe
> > alcohol is a treat?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.oretek.com
> > If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
> > Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/
>
> Im getting a lot of negativity about the treat concept from various
> people, but very intresting reading and thankyou.

Treats to you are poison to others........

> When I say treat Im merely expressing that If I want to have a
> sensible drink without going Mental I can do.its like Im allowing
> myself to If I want to ( maybe lost in translation)

Great..........

> I think That, I ....That is me, can allow myself to have drink If I
> want to one a basis that I can have one and sensibly. We are all
> different. I think the wheels do tend to come off the wagon when you
> tell your self." Im never going to drink again" Its very difficult to
> work from that.

Good for you............And yes, we *are* all different.

> How many alcoholics does anyone know who stops and then never has
> another drink till the day they die. A bet there is not many.

More than you may think...........

> Restriction doesnt work for me in the sense of saying no, but it may
> for others. If I start the daily binging again then I will admit that
> it didnt work...but so far so good.

Than you are not a true alcoholic in the sense of it's definition
than......So, why you here?

KimStar

08-15-2006, 07:07 PM

<DaveB> wrote:

>>"james" wrote:
>>How many alcoholics does anyone know who stops and then never has
>>another drink till the day they die. A bet there is not many.
>>Restriction doesnt work for me in the sense of saying no, but it may
>>for others. If I start the daily binging again then I will admit that
>>it didnt work...but so far so good.

> I have friends that after 12-15 of being sober they decided it was ok
> to have a drink now and then.
>
> They seem to be able to do it, I doubt if I could and am not
> interested in trying.
>
> What ever works.

I've also heard of the rare instances where a recovering alcoholic can,
after a long time of sobriety, allow himself or herself an occasional drink
and not go haywire and stay sober after that. But, if such people really do
exist and are not just an urban legend, then they are the very rare
exception... kind of like women I sometimes hear about who have natural
labor and report having little or no pain.

Conventional wisdom re alcohol addiction and sobriety says that in order to
stay sober, the former addict must adhere to strict abstention. One drink
just about always spells the road to ruin, meaning relapse.

And in answer to James' other question, there are a great many addicts who
quit and never touch a drop again the rest of their lives. It's rare if it
happens w/ the first attempt to quit. Just about every recovering alcoholic
will tell you that it took more than one try to get to long-term, maintained
sobriety. The ones who tell you that they've "basically quit", just having 1
or 2 now and then, once a month or once a week, how ever they rationalize
it, are not considered in recovery by experts who work in the field, and
pretty much by anyone in successful recovery. They are simply alcoholics who
are keeping something of a handle on the disease, but that's a tenuous hold
at best. They are regarded mostly as ticking time bombs.

One other thing, James...I think the language one uses to talk about the
drinking *is* significant. A person who claims to be a recovering alcoholic
and talks about allowing himself an occasional dose of alcohol as "a treat"
reflects an underlying way of thinking about his drinking that belies
something rather dangerous. When drinking has been as much a problem for a
person as you describe it having been for you, my belief is, you should not
be thinking of having a drink as a "treat". There are so many positive
things you can do to "treat" youself to a little reward that don't involve
revisiting addictive behavior you are supposedly trying to kick/leave
behind. You can say "treat" is just a word and you really didn't mean
anything by it, but what you're describing about your current pattern tells
a different story IMO. It sounds to me like you've closed the door on your
alcohol addiction up to the place where you can just fit your foot in the
way of it closing altogether. Why is that? My conclusion would be you're not
ready to really and truly give up drinking. You tell yourself you now have
it under control and it's working for you, but your actions and your
attitude tell a different story. It's called denial. Denial is an addict's
worst enemy--or best friend, depending on how he or she looks at it.

You remind me of my dad saying how he'll just have an "occasional" glass of
wine, cut w/ a little ice, "once in a while", just to "celebrate" a special
occasion. Each time, before you know it, he's back to drinking straight gin
every day. He starts in the afternoon and drinks until he's unconscious. Now
his heart is cooked, he's dependent on oxygen and about 20 different
pharmaceuticals per day, and is, for all intents and purposes, a prisoner of
his home due to his cardiac condition.

Talk about setting yourself up for failure. But OK. Good luck w/ that.

KimStar

Joe Jared

08-16-2006, 11:05 PM

On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:48:12 -0700, james wrote:

> Im getting a lot of negativity about the treat concept from various
> people, but very intresting reading and thankyou.
> When I say treat Im merely expressing that If I want to have a
> sensible drink without going Mental I can do.its like Im allowing
> myself to If I want to ( maybe lost in translation)

Have you explored the possibility that you have a mental illness and that
alcohol enhances it?

> How many alcoholics does anyone know who stops and then never has
> another drink till the day they die. A bet there is not many.

My wife has an occasional drink. It really pisses me off when she leaves
half of it behind. She's not an alcoholic. However, sometimes it
triggers manic or hypomanic episodes, so as a rule, she abstains. I'm not
willing to entertain the possibility that I can drink normally now that
I'm on a medication that stabilizes me mentally. I personally think that
if a psychiatrist prescribes medications that they should live with the
results for each change, including those that advertise to treat
alcoholism.

--
http://www.oretek.com
If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

james

08-18-2006, 11:20 AM

Joe Jared wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:48:12 -0700, james wrote:
>
> > Im getting a lot of negativity about the treat concept from various
> > people, but very intresting reading and thankyou.
> > When I say treat Im merely expressing that If I want to have a
> > sensible drink without going Mental I can do.its like Im allowing
> > myself to If I want to ( maybe lost in translation)
>
> Have you explored the possibility that you have a mental illness and that
> alcohol enhances it?
>
> > How many alcoholics does anyone know who stops and then never has
> > another drink till the day they die. A bet there is not many.
>
> My wife has an occasional drink. It really pisses me off when she leaves
> half of it behind. She's not an alcoholic. However, sometimes it
> triggers manic or hypomanic episodes, so as a rule, she abstains. I'm not
> willing to entertain the possibility that I can drink normally now that
> I'm on a medication that stabilizes me mentally. I personally think that
> if a psychiatrist prescribes medications that they should live with the
> results for each change, including those that advertise to treat
> alcoholism.
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.oretek.com
> If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
> Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have the
occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on me.
Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought I
was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.

Joe Jared

08-18-2006, 01:19 PM

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:

> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have the
> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on me.
> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok

I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so sober,
but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.

> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought I
> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.

Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember that
it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or when.

--
http://www.oretek.com
If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

james

08-18-2006, 02:18 PM

Joe Jared wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
>
>
> > Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have the
> > occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on me.
> > Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
>
> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so sober,
> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.
>
> > off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
> > the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
> > still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought I
> > was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
>
> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember that
> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or when.

Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
live with beta and unknown.
>
> --
> http://www.oretek.com
> If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
> Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

Ken

08-19-2006, 10:53 PM

james wrote:
> Joe Jared wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have the
>>> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on me.
>>> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
>> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
>> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
>> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so sober,
>> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.
>>
>>> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
>>> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
>>> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought I
>>> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
>> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember that
>> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
>> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
>> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or when.
>
> Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
> months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
> me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
> heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
> live with beta and unknown.

James,

I hope you are considering where almost all or all of the responses to
your posts are coming from. They are members of the 12-Step cults,
mostly Alcoholics Anonymous.

For them, there is only one acceptable way to see and describe oneself,
and that is as someone suffering from the folk disease of alcoholism and
in need of admitting Powerless, believing that group members are God's
direct spokespeople and that they (or rather essentially God through
them and only them) are your only salvation.

They want to hear nothing of real medical treatment or overcoming a
drinking problem in any way other than through AA. They will gladly give
you every negative suggestion possible to screw up your attempts at
moderation or abstinence, and then blame it on your "disease."

The DSM, the psychiatric diagnostic manual, has two categories
concerning excessive alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse and alcohol
dependence. They are far removed from the "spiritual disease" of
alcoholism. Those are real problems real people have and real people get
over. "Alcoholism" is a disease defined by the modern-day followers of
a whack job named Frank Buchman. It is defined in such a way that if you
resolve your problem without AA, you "weren't really an alcoholic" and
is only cured by working his Oxford Group's "spiritual principles" in
the form of the Twelve Steps.

These people are most definitely very sincere. They are every bit as
sincere as the average member of the Moonies, Scientology or Jehovah's
Witnesses. The only problem is that they, like the other groups, are
very wrong.

To read about the Step groups from a non-Twelve Step source (although
well-documented from the AA and Oxford Group literature, see:
http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

Stuart

08-20-2006, 01:13 AM

Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:44E7CEA7.10109@nowhere.com...
> james wrote:
> > Joe Jared wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have
the
> >>> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on
me.
> >>> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
> >> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
> >> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
> >> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so
sober,
> >> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.
> >>
> >>> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
> >>> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
> >>> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought
I
> >>> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
> >> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember
that
> >> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
> >> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
> >> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or
when.
> >
> > Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
> > months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
> > me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
> > heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
> > live with beta and unknown.
>
> James,
>
> I hope you are considering where almost all or all of the responses to
> your posts are coming from. They are members of the 12-Step cults,
> mostly Alcoholics Anonymous.
>
> For them, there is only one acceptable way to see and describe oneself,
> and that is as someone suffering from the folk disease of alcoholism and
> in need of admitting Powerless, believing that group members are God's
> direct spokespeople and that they (or rather essentially God through
> them and only them) are your only salvation.
>
> They want to hear nothing of real medical treatment or overcoming a
> drinking problem in any way other than through AA. They will gladly give
> you every negative suggestion possible to screw up your attempts at
> moderation or abstinence, and then blame it on your "disease."
>
> The DSM, the psychiatric diagnostic manual, has two categories
> concerning excessive alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse and alcohol
> dependence. They are far removed from the "spiritual disease" of
> alcoholism. Those are real problems real people have and real people get
> over. "Alcoholism" is a disease defined by the modern-day followers of
> a whack job named Frank Buchman. It is defined in such a way that if you
> resolve your problem without AA, you "weren't really an alcoholic" and
> is only cured by working his Oxford Group's "spiritual principles" in
> the form of the Twelve Steps.
>
> These people are most definitely very sincere. They are every bit as
> sincere as the average member of the Moonies, Scientology or Jehovah's
> Witnesses. The only problem is that they, like the other groups, are
> very wrong.
>
> To read about the Step groups from a non-Twelve Step source (although
> well-documented from the AA and Oxford Group literature, see:
> http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com

James;

Ken has absolutely nothing to offer you to help you with your problem with
alcohol. Alcoholics Anonymous has kept me sober for quite a few 24 hrs. AA
does NOT ever pretend to have all the questions, never mind all the answers.
In your search, I might suggest checking it out as well as any other means
at your disposal. Stay with whatever helps you.
This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder" and
has no real alternative solution.

He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.

Been There Got A Mug

08-20-2006, 08:15 AM

Stuart wrote:

> This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder" and
> has no real alternative solution.
>
> He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.

If I recall .. 20 years ago Ken was attending a AA meeting and when
his attempted coup failed to change the format to his inspired better
proven method he started this long running resentment.

PS. He sells books too.

james

08-20-2006, 03:40 PM

Stuart wrote:
> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:44E7CEA7.10109@nowhere.com...
> > james wrote:
> > > Joe Jared wrote:
> > >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have
> the
> > >>> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on
> me.
> > >>> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
> > >> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
> > >> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
> > >> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so
> sober,
> > >> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.
> > >>
> > >>> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
> > >>> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
> > >>> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought
> I
> > >>> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
> > >> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember
> that
> > >> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
> > >> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
> > >> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or
> when.
> > >
> > > Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
> > > months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
> > > me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
> > > heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
> > > live with beta and unknown.
> >
> > James,
> >
> > I hope you are considering where almost all or all of the responses to
> > your posts are coming from. They are members of the 12-Step cults,
> > mostly Alcoholics Anonymous.
> >
> > For them, there is only one acceptable way to see and describe oneself,
> > and that is as someone suffering from the folk disease of alcoholism and
> > in need of admitting Powerless, believing that group members are God's
> > direct spokespeople and that they (or rather essentially God through
> > them and only them) are your only salvation.
> >
> > They want to hear nothing of real medical treatment or overcoming a
> > drinking problem in any way other than through AA. They will gladly give
> > you every negative suggestion possible to screw up your attempts at
> > moderation or abstinence, and then blame it on your "disease."
> >
> > The DSM, the psychiatric diagnostic manual, has two categories
> > concerning excessive alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse and alcohol
> > dependence. They are far removed from the "spiritual disease" of
> > alcoholism. Those are real problems real people have and real people get
> > over. "Alcoholism" is a disease defined by the modern-day followers of
> > a whack job named Frank Buchman. It is defined in such a way that if you
> > resolve your problem without AA, you "weren't really an alcoholic" and
> > is only cured by working his Oxford Group's "spiritual principles" in
> > the form of the Twelve Steps.
> >
> > These people are most definitely very sincere. They are every bit as
> > sincere as the average member of the Moonies, Scientology or Jehovah's
> > Witnesses. The only problem is that they, like the other groups, are
> > very wrong.
> >
> > To read about the Step groups from a non-Twelve Step source (although
> > well-documented from the AA and Oxford Group literature, see:
> > http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
> >
> > Ken Ragge
> > http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> James;
>
> Ken has absolutely nothing to offer you to help you with your problem with
> alcohol. Alcoholics Anonymous has kept me sober for quite a few 24 hrs. AA
> does NOT ever pretend to have all the questions, never mind all the answers.
> In your search, I might suggest checking it out as well as any other means
> at your disposal. Stay with whatever helps you.
> This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder" and
> has no real alternative solution.
>
> He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.

Thanks Stuart. Im just trying to keep it all simple. Im not looking at
any of that.

Ken

08-20-2006, 04:19 PM

Stuart wrote:
> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:44E7CEA7.10109@nowhere.com...
>> james wrote:
>>> Joe Jared wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have
> the
>>>>> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on
> me.
>>>>> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
>>>> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
>>>> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
>>>> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so
> sober,
>>>> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.
>>>>
>>>>> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
>>>>> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
>>>>> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought
> I
>>>>> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
>>>> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember
> that
>>>> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
>>>> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
>>>> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or
> when.
>>> Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
>>> months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
>>> me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
>>> heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
>>> live with beta and unknown.
>> James,
>>
>> I hope you are considering where almost all or all of the responses to
>> your posts are coming from. They are members of the 12-Step cults,
>> mostly Alcoholics Anonymous.
>>
>> For them, there is only one acceptable way to see and describe oneself,
>> and that is as someone suffering from the folk disease of alcoholism and
>> in need of admitting Powerless, believing that group members are God's
>> direct spokespeople and that they (or rather essentially God through
>> them and only them) are your only salvation.
>>
>> They want to hear nothing of real medical treatment or overcoming a
>> drinking problem in any way other than through AA. They will gladly give
>> you every negative suggestion possible to screw up your attempts at
>> moderation or abstinence, and then blame it on your "disease."
>>
>> The DSM, the psychiatric diagnostic manual, has two categories
>> concerning excessive alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse and alcohol
>> dependence. They are far removed from the "spiritual disease" of
>> alcoholism. Those are real problems real people have and real people get
>> over. "Alcoholism" is a disease defined by the modern-day followers of
>> a whack job named Frank Buchman. It is defined in such a way that if you
>> resolve your problem without AA, you "weren't really an alcoholic" and
>> is only cured by working his Oxford Group's "spiritual principles" in
>> the form of the Twelve Steps.
>>
>> These people are most definitely very sincere. They are every bit as
>> sincere as the average member of the Moonies, Scientology or Jehovah's
>> Witnesses. The only problem is that they, like the other groups, are
>> very wrong.
>>
>> To read about the Step groups from a non-Twelve Step source (although
>> well-documented from the AA and Oxford Group literature, see:
>> http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
>>
>> Ken Ragge
>> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> James;
>
> Ken has absolutely nothing to offer you to help you with your problem with
> alcohol.

Stuart,

Of course, to you, nothing but undermining someone's attempts at
moderation or abstention without AA is "help" to you.

> Alcoholics Anonymous has kept me sober for quite a few 24 hrs.

And yet you are still "spiritually sick" and must attend meetings and
"work the Steps"?

> AA
> does NOT ever pretend to have all the questions, never mind all the answers.

Don't be silly. Whenever anything is wrong with any member, they are
told to read the Big Book, pray, and go to more meetings. Of course, if
you don't consider AA members having the 12th Step "conscious contact
with God," then you could make a statement as the one above.

> In your search, I might suggest checking it out as well as any other means
> at your disposal. Stay with whatever helps you.

Would you also suggest he check out Stanton Peele's website at
http://www.peele.net ?

> This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder" and
> has no real alternative solution.

LOL. Is this another one of your quack chiropractor diagnoses? Or is
this a spiritual one direct from your conscious contact with God?

Being critical and warning people of a cult group that preys on people
who are having difficulties with drinking and not only has no proven
efficacy at helping people with drinking problems but by the research of
one of its own leaders (George Vaillant) has an extremely high suicide
rate is hardly any sort of "disorder."

> He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.

If "bash" is an appropriate word, then the Step groups deserve that
bashing. The reasons are hardly obscure. They are on line at:
http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp and my own particular criticisms
are in the first book at the top of the page.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

Ken

08-20-2006, 04:21 PM

james wrote:
> Stuart wrote:
>> Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:44E7CEA7.10109@nowhere.com...
>>> james wrote:
>>>> Joe Jared wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have
>> the
>>>>>> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on
>> me.
>>>>>> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing ok
>>>>> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic", people
>>>>> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by drinking.
>>>>> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so
>> sober,
>>>>> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than sober.
>>>>>
>>>>>> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now have
>>>>>> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
>>>>>> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just thought
>> I
>>>>>> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
>>>>> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember
>> that
>>>>> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that in
>>>>> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
>>>>> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or
>> when.
>>>> Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
>>>> months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
>>>> me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
>>>> heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
>>>> live with beta and unknown.
>>> James,
>>>
>>> I hope you are considering where almost all or all of the responses to
>>> your posts are coming from. They are members of the 12-Step cults,
>>> mostly Alcoholics Anonymous.
>>>
>>> For them, there is only one acceptable way to see and describe oneself,
>>> and that is as someone suffering from the folk disease of alcoholism and
>>> in need of admitting Powerless, believing that group members are God's
>>> direct spokespeople and that they (or rather essentially God through
>>> them and only them) are your only salvation.
>>>
>>> They want to hear nothing of real medical treatment or overcoming a
>>> drinking problem in any way other than through AA. They will gladly give
>>> you every negative suggestion possible to screw up your attempts at
>>> moderation or abstinence, and then blame it on your "disease."
>>>
>>> The DSM, the psychiatric diagnostic manual, has two categories
>>> concerning excessive alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse and alcohol
>>> dependence. They are far removed from the "spiritual disease" of
>>> alcoholism. Those are real problems real people have and real people get
>>> over. "Alcoholism" is a disease defined by the modern-day followers of
>>> a whack job named Frank Buchman. It is defined in such a way that if you
>>> resolve your problem without AA, you "weren't really an alcoholic" and
>>> is only cured by working his Oxford Group's "spiritual principles" in
>>> the form of the Twelve Steps.
>>>
>>> These people are most definitely very sincere. They are every bit as
>>> sincere as the average member of the Moonies, Scientology or Jehovah's
>>> Witnesses. The only problem is that they, like the other groups, are
>>> very wrong.
>>>
>>> To read about the Step groups from a non-Twelve Step source (although
>>> well-documented from the AA and Oxford Group literature, see:
>>> http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
>>>
>>> Ken Ragge
>>> http://www.morerevealed.com
>> James;
>>
>> Ken has absolutely nothing to offer you to help you with your problem with
>> alcohol. Alcoholics Anonymous has kept me sober for quite a few 24 hrs. AA
>> does NOT ever pretend to have all the questions, never mind all the answers.
>> In your search, I might suggest checking it out as well as any other means
>> at your disposal. Stay with whatever helps you.
>> This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder" and
>> has no real alternative solution.
>>
>> He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.
>
>
> Thanks Stuart. Im just trying to keep it all simple. Im not looking at
> any of that.
>

James,

Then you have an excellent chance of becoming an AA member. In AA, they
say, "No one is too stupid for the program but many people are too
smart" and "KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid."

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

Ken

08-20-2006, 04:26 PM

Been There Got A Mug wrote:
> Stuart wrote:
>
>> This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder" and
>> has no real alternative solution.
>>
>> He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.
>
> If I recall .. 20 years ago Ken was attending a AA meeting and when
> his attempted coup failed to change the format to his inspired better
> proven method he started this long running resentment.

Been There,

And what happened with AA members supposed honesty? And do people with
Time never make amends for lying?

> PS. He sells books too.

We've been through this before. You know that is not true. Again, I
ask you to show me _where_ I am selling _any_ book to _anyone_? All the
books on line at http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp are free for
personal use and none are for sale by me, although I think See Sharp is
still selling a couple of them by other authors.

If you don't remember being caught in that lie before, maybe Stuart has
some sort of dementia diagnosis for you.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

Stuart

08-20-2006, 05:23 PM

Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3eda$44e8c327$4396f491$5819@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> Stuart wrote:
> > Ken <user@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:44E7CEA7.10109@nowhere.com...
> >> james wrote:
> >>> Joe Jared wrote:
> >>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 08:20:07 -0700, james wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Well id like to think that ive not got a mental illness but do have
> > the
> >>>>> occassional frenzied negative moment when the world is caving in on
> > me.
> >>>>> Maybe im not an alcolholic as kim suggests. I dont know. I am doing
ok
> >>>> I'm not sure if I mentioned this, but like the "real alcoholic",
people
> >>>> with a mental disorders generally exasperate their illness by
drinking.
> >>>> I'm not the one to tabulate your sober frenzied moments vs not so
> > sober,
> >>>> but at a guess I'd say you have more frenzied moments drunk than
sober.
> >>>>
> >>>>> off the booze though, I feel clearer on my outlook and I can now
have
> >>>>> the occassional drink ( once a week as Ive mentioned before) and Im
> >>>>> still taking campral. But not on the occassional days. I just
thought
> > I
> >>>>> was as I had drank every day since I was 19 and Im almost 35.
> >>>> Campral may well deal with or make cravings manageable, but remember
> > that
> >>>> it probably doesn't fix things from the neck up. Also remember that
in
> >>>> spite of reports, new drugs should be considered something like beta
> >>>> microsoft software. It's going to break. You just don't know how or
> > when.
> >>> Well if it breaks it hasnt yet and I have been taking ot for three
> >>> months. I did wonder if it was placebo but who knows. Its working for
> >>> me, It least with drinking you know what you are heading for with
> >>> heart problems, liver problems and other drink related ailments. I can
> >>> live with beta and unknown.
> >> James,
> >>
> >> I hope you are considering where almost all or all of the responses to
> >> your posts are coming from. They are members of the 12-Step cults,
> >> mostly Alcoholics Anonymous.
> >>
> >> For them, there is only one acceptable way to see and describe oneself,
> >> and that is as someone suffering from the folk disease of alcoholism
and
> >> in need of admitting Powerless, believing that group members are God's
> >> direct spokespeople and that they (or rather essentially God through
> >> them and only them) are your only salvation.
> >>
> >> They want to hear nothing of real medical treatment or overcoming a
> >> drinking problem in any way other than through AA. They will gladly
give
> >> you every negative suggestion possible to screw up your attempts at
> >> moderation or abstinence, and then blame it on your "disease."
> >>
> >> The DSM, the psychiatric diagnostic manual, has two categories
> >> concerning excessive alcohol consumption, alcohol abuse and alcohol
> >> dependence. They are far removed from the "spiritual disease" of
> >> alcoholism. Those are real problems real people have and real people
get
> >> over. "Alcoholism" is a disease defined by the modern-day followers of
> >> a whack job named Frank Buchman. It is defined in such a way that if
you
> >> resolve your problem without AA, you "weren't really an alcoholic" and
> >> is only cured by working his Oxford Group's "spiritual principles" in
> >> the form of the Twelve Steps.
> >>
> >> These people are most definitely very sincere. They are every bit as
> >> sincere as the average member of the Moonies, Scientology or Jehovah's
> >> Witnesses. The only problem is that they, like the other groups, are
> >> very wrong.
> >>
> >> To read about the Step groups from a non-Twelve Step source (although
> >> well-documented from the AA and Oxford Group literature, see:
> >> http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
> >>
> >> Ken Ragge
> >> http://www.morerevealed.com
> >
> > James;
> >
> > Ken has absolutely nothing to offer you to help you with your problem
with
> > alcohol.
>
> Stuart,
>
> Of course, to you, nothing but undermining someone's attempts at
> moderation or abstention without AA is "help" to you.
>
>
> > Alcoholics Anonymous has kept me sober for quite a few 24 hrs.
>
> And yet you are still "spiritually sick" and must attend meetings and
> "work the Steps"?
>
> > AA
> > does NOT ever pretend to have all the questions, never mind all the
answers.
>
> Don't be silly. Whenever anything is wrong with any member, they are
> told to read the Big Book, pray, and go to more meetings. Of course, if
> you don't consider AA members having the 12th Step "conscious contact
> with God," then you could make a statement as the one above.
>
> > In your search, I might suggest checking it out as well as any other
means
> > at your disposal. Stay with whatever helps you.
>
> Would you also suggest he check out Stanton Peele's website at
> http://www.peele.net ?
>
> > This Ken guy is suffering from "Anti AA Obssesive Compulsive Disorder"
and
> > has no real alternative solution.
>
> LOL. Is this another one of your quack chiropractor diagnoses? Or is
> this a spiritual one direct from your conscious contact with God?

Sorry to disappoint you Ken, but this one is just a simple observatin of
your weird behaviour here.

James basically told you to fuck off, so,,,,

"Lost another one to Ditech">>

>
> Being critical and warning people of a cult group that preys on people
> who are having difficulties with drinking and not only has no proven
> efficacy at helping people with drinking problems but by the research of
> one of its own leaders (George Vaillant) has an extremely high suicide
> rate is hardly any sort of "disorder."
>
> > He is here to bash AA, for some obscure reason.
>
> If "bash" is an appropriate word, then the Step groups deserve that
> bashing. The reasons are hardly obscure. They are on line at:
> http://www.morerevealed.com/library.jsp and my own particular criticisms
> are in the first book at the top of the page.
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com