wouldn't buy gin for dad

[KimStar]

First time post here. My dad is 85 and has been an alcoholic since his early
adulthood. He was one of those 3-martinis-a-day ad exec drunks who was able
to work and acheive on a fairly high level, make a decent living, but pretty
much got plowed every day, thinking he wasn't a "true drunk" because he and
his buddies were too "high class" to be drunks.

Oddly enough, the booze didn't hurt his liver. Instead, it's wrecked his
heart and his kidneys. He started having (cardiac) arrythmia in the late
1980s and tests showed his left ventrical was seriously enlarged. The
cardiologist knew his history and traced the cause directly to his hard
drinking, which he explained irritates the blood vessels over the years,
putting added stress on the heart, which eventually enlarges the ventrical.
The doctor told him on no uncertain terms he had to give up all alcohol
consumption. My dad couldn't accept this, so the doctor told him *maybe* an
"occasional" glass of wine--like once or twice a year to celebrate a
special, festive event--would be permissable, but not beyond that. As you
all must know, there's no such thing as "an occasional" glass of anything
alcoholic for an addict.

As you can all probably predict, he couldn't do it. Before long, he decided
"an occasional glass of wine" was once a month, then once a week, then once
a day. Eventually, he was back to a martini every day, on top of wine
whenever he felt like it pretty much. He kept having these flair ups of the
arrythmia and land back in the hospital. Each time it would be the same
warning--no booze. Each time, he'd try to ease up, but simply could not
maintain abstinence for very long. After a while, he found a new
cardiologist (as well as a doctor somewhere who was a big drunk too who told
him it was OK to have as much booze as he wants, it's all BS that it hurts
the heart) and of course he lied about staying sober. I know because I
talked to the doctors more than once and they all told me he reported he
wasn't drinking.

The last few years, all pretenses are lost. He's drinking straight gin every
day, going through about a fifth a week, lying to his doctors and telling
everyone else to mind their own business. It got worse after my mom died 6
years ago. I guess he felt after that he had no reason to even try to
moderate his drinking or care about his health. He sees a psychiatrist. The
shrink knows about his drinking and has told him it's the worst possible
thing he could be doing to himself, given his heart condition and the huge
amount of prescription drugs he's on for the sundry medical conditions
plaguing him. My dad knows it, but does what he wants regardless. How he's
even alive today is the great mystery of the universe.

He's in and out of the hospital every few weeks. His heart is in congestive
failure, so he has constant fluid around his lungs and heart, which impairs
his breathing. This makes it hard for him to walk, even just out the door of
his building to get a cab. He's had the paramedics over several times now to
shock his heart and take him to the ER. He had a defibrillator implanted in
his chest 3 years ago. Somehow, it's keeping him alive. His kidneys are
functioning at about 25% capacity. His doctor has told him if their
functioning drops any lower, he will probably need dialysis.

Mercifully, he gave up driving voluntarily almost 2 years ago. Since then,
he's needed a ride to grocery shop, or he takes a medicab. I used to take
him shopping--people who have offered to take a list from him and shop for
him have been refused--but it scared the hell out of me every time. His
heart is so bad, he would stop every few mins. to lean all the way over the
shopping cart "to rest" until he felt recovered enough to go on. I kept
waiting for the day he'd go into sudden cardiac arrest right on the grocery
store floor, and maybe that would be it (although I know it probably would
be the most merciful way). He always bought a bottle of gin on each trip. I
didn't like it, but I didn't see how I could stop him. But in the last
couple of months, his condition has deteriorated to the point that he can't
handle getting through the store anymore, so he's relented and let's us
doing the shopping for him. I have 2 sisters who have been doing the
shopping for him most of the time. One of my sisters used to refuse to buy
gin for him, but then she softened and now gets it. She says it's because
she recognizes he's made his choice, the damage is done, it won't make any
difference, so he may as well "live" the way he wants to until the end. My
other sister was buying the gin for him when it was her turn to go, but has
since stopped.

Yesterday, he needed a few things and there was no one else to shop for him
so he asked me. He emailed me his list, and of course gin was on it. I knew
from the get-go that gin would be on the list and that I wouldn't get it for
him, but I lacked the courage to tell him this outright. I feared that if I
told him I wouldn't get the gin, he'd tell me forget it and try to go
himself, which might be the trigger that puts him over the edge. I bought
the other things on the list and brought them over. When I got there w/ the
groceries, I couldn't stall any longer and I had to tell him I didn't get
the gin for him because I don't feel right about it. Predictably, he was
pretty upset. I told him I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. He said I
should've told him so he could've gone himself. In some ways, I don't know
why I bothered. Next time, he just won't ask me, but will find someone who
will get it for him, or will try to go out for it himself. I know that my
one sister is no doubt right...it probably doesn't make a difference any
more, the damage is done, that it's a matter of time and probably not much
of it, either way. I just don't want to be party to it. If he's determined
to kill himself slowly w/ alcohol poisoning, I can't stop him, I know. But
that doesn't mean I have to help him do it, or make it easy for him.

I know that I'm right, but I can't stop feeling bad even so.

Anyone have any thoughts?

KimStar

[DaveB]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 11:51:19 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>First time post here. My dad is 85 and has been an alcoholic since his early
>adulthood. He was one of those 3-martinis-a-day ad exec drunks who was able
>to work and acheive on a fairly high level, make a decent living, but pretty
>much got plowed every day, thinking he wasn't a "true drunk" because he and
>his buddies were too "high class" to be drunks.
>
>Oddly enough, the booze didn't hurt his liver. Instead, it's wrecked his
>heart and his kidneys. He started having (cardiac) arrythmia in the late
>1980s and tests showed his left ventrical was seriously enlarged. The
>cardiologist knew his history and traced the cause directly to his hard
>drinking, which he explained irritates the blood vessels over the years,
>putting added stress on the heart, which eventually enlarges the ventrical.
>The doctor told him on no uncertain terms he had to give up all alcohol
>consumption. My dad couldn't accept this, so the doctor told him *maybe* an
>"occasional" glass of wine--like once or twice a year to celebrate a
>special, festive event--would be permissable, but not beyond that. As you
>all must know, there's no such thing as "an occasional" glass of anything
>alcoholic for an addict.
>
>As you can all probably predict, he couldn't do it. Before long, he decided
>"an occasional glass of wine" was once a month, then once a week, then once
>a day. Eventually, he was back to a martini every day, on top of wine
>whenever he felt like it pretty much. He kept having these flair ups of the
>arrythmia and land back in the hospital. Each time it would be the same
>warning--no booze. Each time, he'd try to ease up, but simply could not
>maintain abstinence for very long. After a while, he found a new
>cardiologist (as well as a doctor somewhere who was a big drunk too who told
>him it was OK to have as much booze as he wants, it's all BS that it hurts
>the heart) and of course he lied about staying sober. I know because I
>talked to the doctors more than once and they all told me he reported he
>wasn't drinking.
>
>The last few years, all pretenses are lost. He's drinking straight gin every
>day, going through about a fifth a week, lying to his doctors and telling
>everyone else to mind their own business. It got worse after my mom died 6
>years ago. I guess he felt after that he had no reason to even try to
>moderate his drinking or care about his health. He sees a psychiatrist. The
>shrink knows about his drinking and has told him it's the worst possible
>thing he could be doing to himself, given his heart condition and the huge
>amount of prescription drugs he's on for the sundry medical conditions
>plaguing him. My dad knows it, but does what he wants regardless. How he's
>even alive today is the great mystery of the universe.
>
>He's in and out of the hospital every few weeks. His heart is in congestive
>failure, so he has constant fluid around his lungs and heart, which impairs
>his breathing. This makes it hard for him to walk, even just out the door of
>his building to get a cab. He's had the paramedics over several times now to
>shock his heart and take him to the ER. He had a defibrillator implanted in
>his chest 3 years ago. Somehow, it's keeping him alive. His kidneys are
>functioning at about 25% capacity. His doctor has told him if their
>functioning drops any lower, he will probably need dialysis.
>
>Mercifully, he gave up driving voluntarily almost 2 years ago. Since then,
>he's needed a ride to grocery shop, or he takes a medicab. I used to take
>him shopping--people who have offered to take a list from him and shop for
>him have been refused--but it scared the hell out of me every time. His
>heart is so bad, he would stop every few mins. to lean all the way over the
>shopping cart "to rest" until he felt recovered enough to go on. I kept
>waiting for the day he'd go into sudden cardiac arrest right on the grocery
>store floor, and maybe that would be it (although I know it probably would
>be the most merciful way). He always bought a bottle of gin on each trip. I
>didn't like it, but I didn't see how I could stop him. But in the last
>couple of months, his condition has deteriorated to the point that he can't
>handle getting through the store anymore, so he's relented and let's us
>doing the shopping for him. I have 2 sisters who have been doing the
>shopping for him most of the time. One of my sisters used to refuse to buy
>gin for him, but then she softened and now gets it. She says it's because
>she recognizes he's made his choice, the damage is done, it won't make any
>difference, so he may as well "live" the way he wants to until the end. My
>other sister was buying the gin for him when it was her turn to go, but has
>since stopped.
>
>Yesterday, he needed a few things and there was no one else to shop for him
>so he asked me. He emailed me his list, and of course gin was on it. I knew
>from the get-go that gin would be on the list and that I wouldn't get it for
>him, but I lacked the courage to tell him this outright. I feared that if I
>told him I wouldn't get the gin, he'd tell me forget it and try to go
>himself, which might be the trigger that puts him over the edge. I bought
>the other things on the list and brought them over. When I got there w/ the
>groceries, I couldn't stall any longer and I had to tell him I didn't get
>the gin for him because I don't feel right about it. Predictably, he was
>pretty upset. I told him I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. He said I
>should've told him so he could've gone himself. In some ways, I don't know
>why I bothered. Next time, he just won't ask me, but will find someone who
>will get it for him, or will try to go out for it himself. I know that my
>one sister is no doubt right...it probably doesn't make a difference any
>more, the damage is done, that it's a matter of time and probably not much
>of it, either way. I just don't want to be party to it. If he's determined
>to kill himself slowly w/ alcohol poisoning, I can't stop him, I know. But
>that doesn't mean I have to help him do it, or make it easy for him.
>
>I know that I'm right, but I can't stop feeling bad even so.
>
>Anyone have any thoughts?
>
>KimStar
>
>
Do what your comfortable with, you have to live with yourself after he
is gone.

Been thru exactly what you describe.

Good Luck
Daveb

[ByTor]

In article <XgjDg.9427$FN2.2698@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, kimstar2856
@yahoo.com says...
> First time post here. My dad is 85 and has been an alcoholic since his early
> adulthood. He was one of those 3-martinis-a-day ad exec drunks who was able
> to work and acheive on a fairly high level, make a decent living, but pretty
> much got plowed every day, thinking he wasn't a "true drunk" because he and
> his buddies were too "high class" to be drunks.
>
> Oddly enough, the booze didn't hurt his liver. Instead, it's wrecked his
> heart and his kidneys. He started having (cardiac) arrythmia in the late
> 1980s and tests showed his left ventrical was seriously enlarged. The
> cardiologist knew his history and traced the cause directly to his hard
> drinking, which he explained irritates the blood vessels over the years,
> putting added stress on the heart, which eventually enlarges the ventrical.
> The doctor told him on no uncertain terms he had to give up all alcohol
> consumption. My dad couldn't accept this, so the doctor told him *maybe* an
> "occasional" glass of wine--like once or twice a year to celebrate a
> special, festive event--would be permissable, but not beyond that. As you
> all must know, there's no such thing as "an occasional" glass of anything
> alcoholic for an addict.
>
> As you can all probably predict, he couldn't do it. Before long, he decided
> "an occasional glass of wine" was once a month, then once a week, then once
> a day. Eventually, he was back to a martini every day, on top of wine
> whenever he felt like it pretty much. He kept having these flair ups of the
> arrythmia and land back in the hospital. Each time it would be the same
> warning--no booze. Each time, he'd try to ease up, but simply could not
> maintain abstinence for very long. After a while, he found a new
> cardiologist (as well as a doctor somewhere who was a big drunk too who told
> him it was OK to have as much booze as he wants, it's all BS that it hurts
> the heart) and of course he lied about staying sober. I know because I
> talked to the doctors more than once and they all told me he reported he
> wasn't drinking.
>
> The last few years, all pretenses are lost. He's drinking straight gin every
> day, going through about a fifth a week, lying to his doctors and telling
> everyone else to mind their own business. It got worse after my mom died 6
> years ago. I guess he felt after that he had no reason to even try to
> moderate his drinking or care about his health. He sees a psychiatrist. The
> shrink knows about his drinking and has told him it's the worst possible
> thing he could be doing to himself, given his heart condition and the huge
> amount of prescription drugs he's on for the sundry medical conditions
> plaguing him. My dad knows it, but does what he wants regardless. How he's
> even alive today is the great mystery of the universe.
>
> He's in and out of the hospital every few weeks. His heart is in congestive
> failure, so he has constant fluid around his lungs and heart, which impairs
> his breathing. This makes it hard for him to walk, even just out the door of
> his building to get a cab. He's had the paramedics over several times now to
> shock his heart and take him to the ER. He had a defibrillator implanted in
> his chest 3 years ago. Somehow, it's keeping him alive. His kidneys are
> functioning at about 25% capacity. His doctor has told him if their
> functioning drops any lower, he will probably need dialysis.
>
> Mercifully, he gave up driving voluntarily almost 2 years ago. Since then,
> he's needed a ride to grocery shop, or he takes a medicab. I used to take
> him shopping--people who have offered to take a list from him and shop for
> him have been refused--but it scared the hell out of me every time. His
> heart is so bad, he would stop every few mins. to lean all the way over the
> shopping cart "to rest" until he felt recovered enough to go on. I kept
> waiting for the day he'd go into sudden cardiac arrest right on the grocery
> store floor, and maybe that would be it (although I know it probably would
> be the most merciful way). He always bought a bottle of gin on each trip. I
> didn't like it, but I didn't see how I could stop him. But in the last
> couple of months, his condition has deteriorated to the point that he can't
> handle getting through the store anymore, so he's relented and let's us
> doing the shopping for him. I have 2 sisters who have been doing the
> shopping for him most of the time. One of my sisters used to refuse to buy
> gin for him, but then she softened and now gets it. She says it's because
> she recognizes he's made his choice, the damage is done, it won't make any
> difference, so he may as well "live" the way he wants to until the end. My
> other sister was buying the gin for him when it was her turn to go, but has
> since stopped.
>
> Yesterday, he needed a few things and there was no one else to shop for him
> so he asked me. He emailed me his list, and of course gin was on it. I knew
> from the get-go that gin would be on the list and that I wouldn't get it for
> him, but I lacked the courage to tell him this outright. I feared that if I
> told him I wouldn't get the gin, he'd tell me forget it and try to go
> himself, which might be the trigger that puts him over the edge. I bought
> the other things on the list and brought them over. When I got there w/ the
> groceries, I couldn't stall any longer and I had to tell him I didn't get
> the gin for him because I don't feel right about it. Predictably, he was
> pretty upset. I told him I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. He said I
> should've told him so he could've gone himself. In some ways, I don't know
> why I bothered. Next time, he just won't ask me, but will find someone who
> will get it for him, or will try to go out for it himself. I know that my
> one sister is no doubt right...it probably doesn't make a difference any
> more, the damage is done, that it's a matter of time and probably not much
> of it, either way. I just don't want to be party to it. If he's determined
> to kill himself slowly w/ alcohol poisoning, I can't stop him, I know. But
> that doesn't mean I have to help him do it, or make it easy for him.
>
> I know that I'm right, but I can't stop feeling bad even so.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts?
>
> KimStar
>
>
>

Wonder if not buying it for him would also do more harm? Sort of a
catch-22 I suppose...........I'm not a doctor so that was just a
thought, not trying to increase or add to the guilt but if a physical
addiction is present than who knows ya know. I'd consult a doctor on
that part as I would suppose the DT's could increase the stress on the
body...........I dunno though Kim, I really feel for ya as it is a tough
situation.........

Good Luck!

[undisclosed@undisclosed.com]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:09:24 -0400, ByTor <ByTor@snowdog.com> wrote:

>In article <XgjDg.9427$FN2.2698@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com>, kimstar2856
>@yahoo.com says...
>> First time post here. My dad is 85 and has been an alcoholic since his early
>> adulthood. He was one of those 3-martinis-a-day ad exec drunks who was able
>> to work and acheive on a fairly high level, make a decent living, but pretty
>> much got plowed every day, thinking he wasn't a "true drunk" because he and
>> his buddies were too "high class" to be drunks.
>>
>> Oddly enough, the booze didn't hurt his liver. Instead, it's wrecked his
>> heart and his kidneys. He started having (cardiac) arrythmia in the late
>> 1980s and tests showed his left ventrical was seriously enlarged. The
>> cardiologist knew his history and traced the cause directly to his hard
>> drinking, which he explained irritates the blood vessels over the years,
>> putting added stress on the heart, which eventually enlarges the ventrical.
>> The doctor told him on no uncertain terms he had to give up all alcohol
>> consumption. My dad couldn't accept this, so the doctor told him *maybe* an
>> "occasional" glass of wine--like once or twice a year to celebrate a
>> special, festive event--would be permissable, but not beyond that. As you
>> all must know, there's no such thing as "an occasional" glass of anything
>> alcoholic for an addict.
>>
>> As you can all probably predict, he couldn't do it. Before long, he decided
>> "an occasional glass of wine" was once a month, then once a week, then once
>> a day. Eventually, he was back to a martini every day, on top of wine
>> whenever he felt like it pretty much. He kept having these flair ups of the
>> arrythmia and land back in the hospital. Each time it would be the same
>> warning--no booze. Each time, he'd try to ease up, but simply could not
>> maintain abstinence for very long. After a while, he found a new
>> cardiologist (as well as a doctor somewhere who was a big drunk too who told
>> him it was OK to have as much booze as he wants, it's all BS that it hurts
>> the heart) and of course he lied about staying sober. I know because I
>> talked to the doctors more than once and they all told me he reported he
>> wasn't drinking.
>>
>> The last few years, all pretenses are lost. He's drinking straight gin every
>> day, going through about a fifth a week, lying to his doctors and telling
>> everyone else to mind their own business. It got worse after my mom died 6
>> years ago. I guess he felt after that he had no reason to even try to
>> moderate his drinking or care about his health. He sees a psychiatrist. The
>> shrink knows about his drinking and has told him it's the worst possible
>> thing he could be doing to himself, given his heart condition and the huge
>> amount of prescription drugs he's on for the sundry medical conditions
>> plaguing him. My dad knows it, but does what he wants regardless. How he's
>> even alive today is the great mystery of the universe.
>>
>> He's in and out of the hospital every few weeks. His heart is in congestive
>> failure, so he has constant fluid around his lungs and heart, which impairs
>> his breathing. This makes it hard for him to walk, even just out the door of
>> his building to get a cab. He's had the paramedics over several times now to
>> shock his heart and take him to the ER. He had a defibrillator implanted in
>> his chest 3 years ago. Somehow, it's keeping him alive. His kidneys are
>> functioning at about 25% capacity. His doctor has told him if their
>> functioning drops any lower, he will probably need dialysis.
>>
>> Mercifully, he gave up driving voluntarily almost 2 years ago. Since then,
>> he's needed a ride to grocery shop, or he takes a medicab. I used to take
>> him shopping--people who have offered to take a list from him and shop for
>> him have been refused--but it scared the hell out of me every time. His
>> heart is so bad, he would stop every few mins. to lean all the way over the
>> shopping cart "to rest" until he felt recovered enough to go on. I kept
>> waiting for the day he'd go into sudden cardiac arrest right on the grocery
>> store floor, and maybe that would be it (although I know it probably would
>> be the most merciful way). He always bought a bottle of gin on each trip. I
>> didn't like it, but I didn't see how I could stop him. But in the last
>> couple of months, his condition has deteriorated to the point that he can't
>> handle getting through the store anymore, so he's relented and let's us
>> doing the shopping for him. I have 2 sisters who have been doing the
>> shopping for him most of the time. One of my sisters used to refuse to buy
>> gin for him, but then she softened and now gets it. She says it's because
>> she recognizes he's made his choice, the damage is done, it won't make any
>> difference, so he may as well "live" the way he wants to until the end. My
>> other sister was buying the gin for him when it was her turn to go, but has
>> since stopped.
>>
>> Yesterday, he needed a few things and there was no one else to shop for him
>> so he asked me. He emailed me his list, and of course gin was on it. I knew
>> from the get-go that gin would be on the list and that I wouldn't get it for
>> him, but I lacked the courage to tell him this outright. I feared that if I
>> told him I wouldn't get the gin, he'd tell me forget it and try to go
>> himself, which might be the trigger that puts him over the edge. I bought
>> the other things on the list and brought them over. When I got there w/ the
>> groceries, I couldn't stall any longer and I had to tell him I didn't get
>> the gin for him because I don't feel right about it. Predictably, he was
>> pretty upset. I told him I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. He said I
>> should've told him so he could've gone himself. In some ways, I don't know
>> why I bothered. Next time, he just won't ask me, but will find someone who
>> will get it for him, or will try to go out for it himself. I know that my
>> one sister is no doubt right...it probably doesn't make a difference any
>> more, the damage is done, that it's a matter of time and probably not much
>> of it, either way. I just don't want to be party to it. If he's determined
>> to kill himself slowly w/ alcohol poisoning, I can't stop him, I know. But
>> that doesn't mean I have to help him do it, or make it easy for him.
>>
>> I know that I'm right, but I can't stop feeling bad even so.
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts?
>>
>> KimStar
>>
>>
>>
>
>Wonder if not buying it for him would also do more harm? Sort of a
>catch-22 I suppose...........I'm not a doctor so that was just a
>thought, not trying to increase or add to the guilt but if a physical
>addiction is present than who knows ya know. I'd consult a doctor on
>that part as I would suppose the DT's could increase the stress on the
>body...........I dunno though Kim, I really feel for ya as it is a tough
>situation.........
>
>Good Luck!

They do sell non-alcoholic versions of almost every type of liquor.
Substitute it and he might not even know if you put it in the original
bottle from the real thing. You might start by blending the real
thing with the fake. Keep adding more of the fake stuff, till it's
all non-alcohol.

I dont know about Gin, but I have drank some of the others and they
taste quite real, and some of the n/a wines are quite good.

[KimStar]

"ByTor" wrote:
> Wonder if not buying it for him would also do more harm? Sort of a
> catch-22 I suppose...........I'm not a doctor so that was just a
> thought, not trying to increase or add to the guilt but if a physical
> addiction is present than who knows ya know. I'd consult a doctor on
> that part as I would suppose the DT's could increase the stress on the
> body...........I dunno though Kim, I really feel for ya as it is a tough
> situation.........
>
> Good Luck!

Thanks. I *have* talked to several of his doctors about this, most reccently
the last time he was in the hospital, just a couple of months ago. They said
absolutely, no exception to it, he should NOT have a single drop of any kind
of alcohol. They say it can have a disastrous effect interacting w/ the
various medications he's on, and it's exacerbating his cardiac condition
which is at the point that it's interferring w/ his breathing. He's on
oxygen at home. They didn't say anything about it could be more dangerous
for him to go through addiction withdrawal than to drink.

I know he was wanting that gin bad by the time I got there. He told me he
had "nothing" in the house to drink. I told him--sarcastically--to drink the
apple juice I brought him, which was on his shopping list. I can imagine how
bad he was craving it by then. He started crying, but tried to pull himself
together quickly. He did thank me before I left, just for doing the
shopping. He knows I'm right. He knows he's doing a bad thing. But I'm sure
it didn't make him feel any better.

As I was writing this, I heard from my sister--the one who will bring him
the gin. She said he called him early today and asked her if she'd like to
stop by for a visit, and if so, could she go to the Walgreens for him. They
have a liquor dept. He told her how I went shopping for him, but that I
wouldn't bring him the gin. She said she heard about it already. He said he
appreciated me taking him out this week and doing the shopping yesterday, so
she thinks he's not mad at me. She told him she could come by tomorrow in
the later afternoon. He said it's a nice day today and maybe he'll go up to
the Walgreens himself then (it's about 2 blocks from him, which is almost
more than he can walk, but he can probably just do it). We both know what's
on his mind. I'm just surprised he didn't go already. I wonder how he got
through the night.

This may sound ugly, but it wouldn't be so bad if he'd just die quickly. But
the way he's doing it stinks. He gets so that he's gasping for air and has
to go to the ER, either by ambulance or medicab. They admit him each time
and put him in the CCU on IV diuretics for 2 or 3 days to get the fluid off
his heart and lungs and he gets no liquor for the time. So he improves
marginally and goes home. He's back drinking straight gin within a week and
the cycle starts all over again. I used to take him out occasionally, to a
movie or to lunch. But even that is almost too hard to do anymore because
his walking is so bad. He gets badly winded and has to stop to rest after
about 10 steps. He refuses to use a wheelchair, a walker or even a cane. He
has to lean on me as he stumbles along. Did I mention he's also going blind?
So reading and even watching TV is becoming extremely difficult for him. His
world has narrowed so much, he has almost no life at all now.

What a FU'd way to go. I almost feel I'm being cruel to deny him his gin,
the only pleasure left to him anymore. But I still can't do it.

KimStar

[...@...com]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:16:47 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>"ByTor" wrote:
>> Wonder if not buying it for him would also do more harm? Sort of a
>> catch-22 I suppose...........I'm not a doctor so that was just a
>> thought, not trying to increase or add to the guilt but if a physical
>> addiction is present than who knows ya know. I'd consult a doctor on
>> that part as I would suppose the DT's could increase the stress on the
>> body...........I dunno though Kim, I really feel for ya as it is a tough
>> situation.........
>>
>> Good Luck!
>
>Thanks. I *have* talked to several of his doctors about this, most reccently
>the last time he was in the hospital, just a couple of months ago. They said
>absolutely, no exception to it, he should NOT have a single drop of any kind
>of alcohol. They say it can have a disastrous effect interacting w/ the
>various medications he's on, and it's exacerbating his cardiac condition
>which is at the point that it's interferring w/ his breathing. He's on
>oxygen at home. They didn't say anything about it could be more dangerous
>for him to go through addiction withdrawal than to drink.
>
>I know he was wanting that gin bad by the time I got there. He told me he
>had "nothing" in the house to drink. I told him--sarcastically--to drink the
>apple juice I brought him, which was on his shopping list. I can imagine how
>bad he was craving it by then. He started crying, but tried to pull himself
>together quickly. He did thank me before I left, just for doing the
>shopping. He knows I'm right. He knows he's doing a bad thing. But I'm sure
>it didn't make him feel any better.
>
>As I was writing this, I heard from my sister--the one who will bring him
>the gin. She said he called him early today and asked her if she'd like to
>stop by for a visit, and if so, could she go to the Walgreens for him. They
>have a liquor dept. He told her how I went shopping for him, but that I
>wouldn't bring him the gin. She said she heard about it already. He said he
>appreciated me taking him out this week and doing the shopping yesterday, so
>she thinks he's not mad at me. She told him she could come by tomorrow in
>the later afternoon. He said it's a nice day today and maybe he'll go up to
>the Walgreens himself then (it's about 2 blocks from him, which is almost
>more than he can walk, but he can probably just do it). We both know what's
>on his mind. I'm just surprised he didn't go already. I wonder how he got
>through the night.
>
>This may sound ugly, but it wouldn't be so bad if he'd just die quickly. But
>the way he's doing it stinks. He gets so that he's gasping for air and has
>to go to the ER, either by ambulance or medicab. They admit him each time
>and put him in the CCU on IV diuretics for 2 or 3 days to get the fluid off
>his heart and lungs and he gets no liquor for the time. So he improves
>marginally and goes home. He's back drinking straight gin within a week and
>the cycle starts all over again. I used to take him out occasionally, to a
>movie or to lunch. But even that is almost too hard to do anymore because
>his walking is so bad. He gets badly winded and has to stop to rest after
>about 10 steps. He refuses to use a wheelchair, a walker or even a cane. He
>has to lean on me as he stumbles along. Did I mention he's also going blind?
>So reading and even watching TV is becoming extremely difficult for him. His
>world has narrowed so much, he has almost no life at all now.
>
>What a FU'd way to go. I almost feel I'm being cruel to deny him his gin,
>the only pleasure left to him anymore. But I still can't do it.
>
>KimStar
>

How come the doctors have not put him on any of the drugs they use for
alcoholism, such as antabuse (I think thats the name)?

[Whatmeworry]

....@...com wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:16:47 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "ByTor" wrote:
>>> Wonder if not buying it for him would also do more harm? Sort of a
>>> catch-22 I suppose...........I'm not a doctor so that was just a
>>> thought, not trying to increase or add to the guilt but if a physical
>>> addiction is present than who knows ya know. I'd consult a doctor on
>>> that part as I would suppose the DT's could increase the stress on the
>>> body...........I dunno though Kim, I really feel for ya as it is a tough
>>> situation.........
>>>
>>> Good Luck!
>> Thanks. I *have* talked to several of his doctors about this, most reccently
>> the last time he was in the hospital, just a couple of months ago. They said
>> absolutely, no exception to it, he should NOT have a single drop of any kind
>> of alcohol. They say it can have a disastrous effect interacting w/ the
>> various medications he's on, and it's exacerbating his cardiac condition
>> which is at the point that it's interferring w/ his breathing. He's on
>> oxygen at home. They didn't say anything about it could be more dangerous
>> for him to go through addiction withdrawal than to drink.
>>
>> I know he was wanting that gin bad by the time I got there. He told me he
>> had "nothing" in the house to drink. I told him--sarcastically--to drink the
>> apple juice I brought him, which was on his shopping list. I can imagine how
>> bad he was craving it by then. He started crying, but tried to pull himself
>> together quickly. He did thank me before I left, just for doing the
>> shopping. He knows I'm right. He knows he's doing a bad thing. But I'm sure
>> it didn't make him feel any better.
>>
>> As I was writing this, I heard from my sister--the one who will bring him
>> the gin. She said he called him early today and asked her if she'd like to
>> stop by for a visit, and if so, could she go to the Walgreens for him. They
>> have a liquor dept. He told her how I went shopping for him, but that I
>> wouldn't bring him the gin. She said she heard about it already. He said he
>> appreciated me taking him out this week and doing the shopping yesterday, so
>> she thinks he's not mad at me. She told him she could come by tomorrow in
>> the later afternoon. He said it's a nice day today and maybe he'll go up to
>> the Walgreens himself then (it's about 2 blocks from him, which is almost
>> more than he can walk, but he can probably just do it). We both know what's
>> on his mind. I'm just surprised he didn't go already. I wonder how he got
>> through the night.
>>
>> This may sound ugly, but it wouldn't be so bad if he'd just die quickly. But
>> the way he's doing it stinks. He gets so that he's gasping for air and has
>> to go to the ER, either by ambulance or medicab. They admit him each time
>> and put him in the CCU on IV diuretics for 2 or 3 days to get the fluid off
>> his heart and lungs and he gets no liquor for the time. So he improves
>> marginally and goes home. He's back drinking straight gin within a week and
>> the cycle starts all over again. I used to take him out occasionally, to a
>> movie or to lunch. But even that is almost too hard to do anymore because
>> his walking is so bad. He gets badly winded and has to stop to rest after
>> about 10 steps. He refuses to use a wheelchair, a walker or even a cane. He
>> has to lean on me as he stumbles along. Did I mention he's also going blind?
>> So reading and even watching TV is becoming extremely difficult for him. His
>> world has narrowed so much, he has almost no life at all now.
>>
>> What a FU'd way to go. I almost feel I'm being cruel to deny him his gin,
>> the only pleasure left to him anymore. But I still can't do it.
>>
>> KimStar
>>
>
> How come the doctors have not put him on any of the drugs they use for
> alcoholism, such as antabuse (I think thats the name)?

Probably because antabuse is more for people who want to quit. Sounds
like this guy has no intentions of quitting and if he drank on antabuse,
likely, it would almost certainly kill him.

[KimStar]

"Whatmeworry" wrote:

...@...com wrote:
>> How come the doctors have not put him on any of the drugs they use for
>> alcoholism, such as antabuse (I think thats the name)?

> Probably because antabuse is more for people who want to quit. Sounds
> like this guy has no intentions of quitting and if he drank on antabuse,
> likely, it would almost certainly kill him.

That's right, he doesn't want treatment. He swears to the doctors he isn't
drinking. I'm sure they don't believe him, but what can they do? They can
only advise him, not order him to stop. He's not breaking any laws. He would
reject any suggestion he go on medication to treat alcoholism, or any
program, in-patient or out-patient.

KimStar

[DaveB]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 23:51:00 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>"Whatmeworry" wrote:
>
> ...@...com wrote:
>>> How come the doctors have not put him on any of the drugs they use for
>>> alcoholism, such as antabuse (I think thats the name)?
>
>> Probably because antabuse is more for people who want to quit. Sounds
>> like this guy has no intentions of quitting and if he drank on antabuse,
>> likely, it would almost certainly kill him.
>
>That's right, he doesn't want treatment. He swears to the doctors he isn't
>drinking. I'm sure they don't believe him, but what can they do? They can
>only advise him, not order him to stop. He's not breaking any laws. He would
>reject any suggestion he go on medication to treat alcoholism, or any
>program, in-patient or out-patient.
>
>KimStar

You answered the original question, just dont be a part of the
problem.

Be kind and understanding..............DONT BUY HIS BOOZE.

He will find someone to do it for him,

Good Luck
>
>
>

Daveb

[KimStar]

<DaveB> wrote:

>>"KimStar" wrote:
>>That's right, he doesn't want treatment. He swears to the doctors he isn't
>>drinking. I'm sure they don't believe him, but what can they do? They can
>>only advise him, not order him to stop. He's not breaking any laws. He
>>would
>>reject any suggestion he go on medication to treat alcoholism, or any
>>program, in-patient or out-patient.

> You answered the original question, just dont be a part of the
> problem.
>
> Be kind and understanding..............DONT BUY HIS BOOZE.

I agree w/ you...I know I'm right. I think I was gentle w/ him. I could've
lectured him and gotten preachy, but I didn't. I just told him I don't feel
right buying gin for him and didn't go into details. He said I was wrong,
and I answered that I don't agree...I think I'm right. I did make the
comment about the apple juice, but that was quite soft compared to many
things I might've said. I know there's no point in lecturing him.

I wasn't really looking for advice. I know there's nothing to be done, or
anything anyone can tell me. I just still feel bad and I guess I was looking
for people to say, yeah, it's hard but you did the right thing. It's so sad
to see him this way. And there's still this old father-child dynamic where I
feel guilty to disappoint him and not do what he wants.

> He will find someone to do it for him,

Unfortunately, I know you're right. He actually complained to me the liquor
store charges $10 to deliver (he's obviously looked into it) and I had to
bite my tongue to keep from saying tough sh**.

> Good Luck

Thanks. I appreciate it.

KimStar

[...@...com]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 03:02:49 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
><DaveB> wrote:
>
>>>"KimStar" wrote:
>>>That's right, he doesn't want treatment. He swears to the doctors he isn't
>>>drinking. I'm sure they don't believe him, but what can they do? They can
>>>only advise him, not order him to stop. He's not breaking any laws. He
>>>would
>>>reject any suggestion he go on medication to treat alcoholism, or any
>>>program, in-patient or out-patient.
>
>> You answered the original question, just dont be a part of the
>> problem.
>>
>> Be kind and understanding..............DONT BUY HIS BOOZE.
>
>I agree w/ you...I know I'm right. I think I was gentle w/ him. I could've
>lectured him and gotten preachy, but I didn't. I just told him I don't feel
>right buying gin for him and didn't go into details. He said I was wrong,
>and I answered that I don't agree...I think I'm right. I did make the
>comment about the apple juice, but that was quite soft compared to many
>things I might've said. I know there's no point in lecturing him.
>
>I wasn't really looking for advice. I know there's nothing to be done, or
>anything anyone can tell me. I just still feel bad and I guess I was looking
>for people to say, yeah, it's hard but you did the right thing. It's so sad
>to see him this way. And there's still this old father-child dynamic where I
>feel guilty to disappoint him and not do what he wants.
>
>> He will find someone to do it for him,
>
>Unfortunately, I know you're right. He actually complained to me the liquor
>store charges $10 to deliver (he's obviously looked into it) and I had to
>bite my tongue to keep from saying tough sh**.
>
>> Good Luck
>
>Thanks. I appreciate it.
>
>KimStar
>

Have you gone to alanon? Might be worth your effort.

The suggestion to substitute a non-alcohol version of whatever he
drinks might be a thing to try. I forget the word they use, but some
people get rid of a headache from fake aspirin or relieve other
conditions from other fake drugs. See what he would do if you filled
his bottle with some N/A liquor. Maybe he wont even notice.
(especially if he makes a mixed drink), Or maybe he will notice, but
it's worth the try. The larger liquor stores seem to carry a large
variety of N/A stuff lately. I only drink N/A beer, but I was looking
at all the stuff they have now, and there sure is a variety.

You could probably call all the liquor stores that deliver and explain
to them that because of his health, he can not drink and you dont want
anything delivered to him. If that dont work, put it in writing and
get it notorized, and deliver it to each store. In the letter, tell
them if something happens to him as a result of their delivering to
him, you will hold them liable. That ought to put a stop to the
deliveries.

[KimStar]

<...@...com> wrote:
> Have you gone to alanon? Might be worth your effort.

I'm really not a "meetings" person.

> The suggestion to substitute a non-alcohol version of whatever he
> drinks might be a thing to try. I forget the word they use, but some
> people get rid of a headache from fake aspirin or relieve other
> conditions from other fake drugs.

Placebo effect is what you're talking about. I don't see my father falling
for that.

See what he would do if you filled
> his bottle with some N/A liquor. Maybe he wont even notice.
> (especially if he makes a mixed drink), Or maybe he will notice, but
> it's worth the try. The larger liquor stores seem to carry a large
> variety of N/A stuff lately. I only drink N/A beer, but I was looking
> at all the stuff they have now, and there sure is a variety.

I don't see that working at all. For one thing, he starts off every time he
goes back to drinking from a drying out period w/ wine w/ a lot of ice in it
to dilute the alcohol. Then it's less ice, and before long it's straight
wine. Next it's martinis again, then it's gin w/ ice because he says "Why
water perfectly good gin down w/ vermouth when you can drink uncut gin?"
After a few days, the ice is gone and he's drinking straight gin. About a
year ago when I saw what he was doing, I said to him, "Dad, why bother
bringing the gin home? Why don't you go across the street to the park
directly from the liquor store, sit on a bench w/ the other alkies and drink
it straight out of the bottle still it in the paper bag?"

He would most certainly detect he wasn't getting alcohol.

For another thing, it's not like I have access to his liquor. I can't go
over there when I think he won't be home to exchange his gin for a N/A
substitute. None of us have keys to his place. I can't do it when I'm over
to visit, because he would certainly see me doing it. And now I've gone on
the record as not buying gin for him, so it's not like I can make the switch
next time I buy it for him--undoubtedly he will never ask me again.

But above all, he would know he wasn't getting gin.

> You could probably call all the liquor stores that deliver and explain
> to them that because of his health, he can not drink and you dont want
> anything delivered to him. If that dont work, put it in writing and
> get it notorized, and deliver it to each store. In the letter, tell
> them if something happens to him as a result of their delivering to
> him, you will hold them liable. That ought to put a stop to the
> deliveries.

I don't see that working.

But thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate you wanting to help.

I'm resigned to the fact that he's killing himself, the battle is over to
try to stop him, and that it's only a matter of time. Probably not much time
either. I just don't want to be the one to make it easier for him. But the
other day I was thinking maybe my sister is right...what the hell difference
does it make at this point? He's a goner anyway, the damage is done. The fix
makes him more comfortable for the moment, even though it's not long between
hospital treatments that he goes into distress again from the fluid
accumulating around his heart and on his lungs. Is it cruel to deprive him
of that very temporary feeling of comfort he gets from the gin fix?

It hurt to see him cry like that when I told him I didn't get it.

Kim

[...@...com]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006 14:25:07 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
wrote:

><...@...com> wrote:
>> Have you gone to alanon? Might be worth your effort.
>
>I'm really not a "meetings" person.
>
Dont sound like you want help too bad then.
They're not that hard to attend and you get support from others with
similar problems. Give it a try, your dad's life depends on it from
what you said.

>> The suggestion to substitute a non-alcohol version of whatever he
>> drinks might be a thing to try. I forget the word they use, but some
>> people get rid of a headache from fake aspirin or relieve other
>> conditions from other fake drugs.
>
>Placebo effect is what you're talking about. I don't see my father falling
>for that.
>
That's the word.

> See what he would do if you filled
>> his bottle with some N/A liquor. Maybe he wont even notice.
>> (especially if he makes a mixed drink), Or maybe he will notice, but
>> it's worth the try. The larger liquor stores seem to carry a large
>> variety of N/A stuff lately. I only drink N/A beer, but I was looking
>> at all the stuff they have now, and there sure is a variety.
>
>I don't see that working at all. For one thing, he starts off every time he
>goes back to drinking from a drying out period w/ wine w/ a lot of ice in it
>to dilute the alcohol. Then it's less ice, and before long it's straight
>wine. Next it's martinis again, then it's gin w/ ice because he says "Why
>water perfectly good gin down w/ vermouth when you can drink uncut gin?"
>After a few days, the ice is gone and he's drinking straight gin. About a
>year ago when I saw what he was doing, I said to him, "Dad, why bother
>bringing the gin home? Why don't you go across the street to the park
>directly from the liquor store, sit on a bench w/ the other alkies and drink
>it straight out of the bottle still it in the paper bag?"

It probably wont work, but you never know. Depends on hos his mind
is. They have N/A wines too. But if you cant get it to him, then I
guess you cant try. Of course whoever brings it to him could do it.

>
>He would most certainly detect he wasn't getting alcohol.
>
>For another thing, it's not like I have access to his liquor. I can't go
>over there when I think he won't be home to exchange his gin for a N/A
>substitute. None of us have keys to his place. I can't do it when I'm over
>to visit, because he would certainly see me doing it. And now I've gone on
>the record as not buying gin for him, so it's not like I can make the switch
>next time I buy it for him--undoubtedly he will never ask me again.
>
>But above all, he would know he wasn't getting gin.
>
>> You could probably call all the liquor stores that deliver and explain
>> to them that because of his health, he can not drink and you dont want
>> anything delivered to him. If that dont work, put it in writing and
>> get it notorized, and deliver it to each store. In the letter, tell
>> them if something happens to him as a result of their delivering to
>> him, you will hold them liable. That ought to put a stop to the
>> deliveries.
>
>I don't see that working.

I do.....
If someone walked in by him and points a gun at him, I bet you'd call
the police. From what you said, the liquor will kill him as much as
any gun. If the stores do deliver the booze after you tell them in
writing that it is a matter of life and death, you can legally sue
them for manslaughter. Make that point very clear in your letters,
and I know they wont deliver. But first, you got to tell them in
writing.

>
>But thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate you wanting to help.
>

You're welcome.

>I'm resigned to the fact that he's killing himself, the battle is over to
>try to stop him, and that it's only a matter of time. Probably not much time

I agree.

>either. I just don't want to be the one to make it easier for him. But the
>other day I was thinking maybe my sister is right...what the hell difference
>does it make at this point? He's a goner anyway, the damage is done. The fix
>makes him more comfortable for the moment, even though it's not long between
>hospital treatments that he goes into distress again from the fluid
>accumulating around his heart and on his lungs. Is it cruel to deprive him
>of that very temporary feeling of comfort he gets from the gin fix?

Yeah, but if you make sure he dont get any more booze, he may heal.
Threaten to sue anyone that give him booze, and I mean ANYONE. Even
relatives. I am not a lawyer, but I have a good understanding of the
law.
>
>It hurt to see him cry like that when I told him I didn't get it.
>
>Kim
>

I am sure it did, but YOU are in the RIGHT. Remember that.
Alcoholism is a disease. Remember that too.
Now it's your job to end the disease. No booze means no more alcohol
abuse.

I think you got a big job to do......
I'd do the same for someone I love !!!!

[KimStar]

> "KimStar" wrote:

>><...@...com wrote:
>>> Have you gone to alanon? Might be worth your effort.

>>I'm really not a "meetings" person.

> Doesn't sound like you want help too bad then.
> They're not that hard to attend and you get support from others with
> similar problems. Give it a try, your dad's life depends on it from
> what you said.

If I attend meetings or if it I sit w/ it alone, I have no intention of
buying the booze for him either way. So my dad's life does not depend on me
attending meetings.

>>He would most certainly detect he wasn't getting alcohol.

> It probably won't work, but you never know. Depends on how his mind
> is. They have N/A wines too. But if you cant get it to him, then I
> guess you can't try. Of course whoever brings it to him could do it.

He's somewhat forgetful and sometimes confused these days, but he's not so
far gone that he could be fooled into thinking he's drinking something w/
alcohol in it when he isn't. He's an addict and his body would "know" if it
was getting its fix or not, even if he was too out of it to know the
difference.

>>> You could probably call all the liquor stores that deliver and explain
>>> to them that because of his health, he can not drink and you dont want
>>> anything delivered to him. If that dont work, put it in writing and
>>> get it notorized, and deliver it to each store. In the letter, tell
>>> them if something happens to him as a result of their delivering to
>>> him, you will hold them liable. That ought to put a stop to the
>>> deliveries.

>>I don't see that working.

> I do.....
> If someone walked in by him and points a gun at him, I bet you'd call
> the police. From what you said, the liquor will kill him as much as
> any gun. If the stores do deliver the booze after you tell them in
> writing that it is a matter of life and death, you can legally sue
> them for manslaughter. Make that point very clear in your letters,
> and I know they won't deliver. But first, you have to tell them in
> writing.

There's a clear law against threatening someone w/ a gun, and even from
someone attempting to commit suicide. However, there is no law against a
merchant selling a legally allowed product to an adult, and there's no law
against anyone w/ any health condition buying a product that is unhealthy
for him or her. People w/ emphysema or lung cancer can buy cigarettes, and
any merchant can sell the cigarettes to this person even if the merchant is
fully aware of the customer's health condition. And the merchant cannot be
held liable for damages if something bad happens to the customer due to
consuming the product purchased.

>>I just don't want to be the one to make it easier for him. But the
>>other day I was thinking maybe my sister is right...what the hell
>>difference
>>does it make at this point? He's a goner anyway, the damage is done. The
>>fix
>>makes him more comfortable for the moment, even though it's not long
>>between
>>hospital treatments that he goes into distress again from the fluid
>>accumulating around his heart and on his lungs. Is it cruel to deprive him
>>of that very temporary feeling of comfort he gets from the gin fix?

> Yeah, but if you make sure he doesn't get any more booze, he may heal.

Even if he stopped drinking today and never touched another drop, the damage
to his heart will not "heal". The heart muscle does not repair itself. It's
not like the liver which regenerates. And in persons w/ advanced alcoholism
of many years, there's a certain point where even the liver does not repair
itself anymore. If there's too much damage, there's not enough healthy
tissue to regenerate. But in any case, the heart never repairs itself.

> Threaten to sue anyone that gives him booze, and I mean ANYONE. Even
> relatives. I am not a lawyer, but I have a good understanding of the
> law.

Yeah well, I'm no lawyer either, but my understanding of the law is
diffierent from yours. And my understanding is, no one can be liable for
providing alcohol to someone who is legally of age to purchase it. The
exception is tavern owners and their staff...if they see someone overtly
intoxicated, or someone who has had drink after drink while there, they can
refuse to serve them anything more. And if they do, and the person leaves
and has an accident, and someone gets hurt or killed, or property is
damaged, the tavern owner may be liable for damages. But a liquor or grocery
store that delivers or sells an alcoholic product to someone identified to
them as having a serious health problem that may be exacerbated by consuming
alcohol has no obligation to refuse to sell the product. Same is true of
anyone who purchases the alcohol for the same person. There's no law against
it, and there would be no basis for a lawsuit against any such persons. Any
suit filed would be thrown out immediately as having no merit.

>>It hurt to see him cry like that when I told him I didn't get it.

> I am sure it did, but YOU are in the RIGHT. Remember that.
> Alcoholism is a disease. Remember that too.

I do know both things.

> Now it's your job to end the disease. No booze means no more alcohol
> abuse.

And here I disagree w/ you. I don't agree that it's "my job" to end the
disease. If it truly was my job, I'd do it. But I can't stop my father from
drinking. All I can do is refuse to participate by bringing booze to him.
I've notified his doctors that he's lying to them about not drinking. They
have lectured him sternly that he must stop drinking altogether if he wants
to reduce these episodes of being so out of breath, he has to be rushed to
the ER. He's heard it all and he understands it completely, yet he chooses
to drink straight gin every day. No one can stop him. He's screwed up in a
lot of ways and he's acting horribly self-destructive. But he's legally
competent to make his own choices, and while that's the case, I have no
power to stop him from drinking. The most I can do is not make it easy for
him by serving as a supplier.

KimStar

[tonykujawa]

He's 85, cut him a F-ing break already. It's what makes him happy.
Why be a ninny deny it?



KimStar wrote:
> First time post here. My dad is 85 and has been an alcoholic since his early
> adulthood. He was one of those 3-martinis-a-day ad exec drunks who was able
> to work and acheive on a fairly high level, make a decent living, but pretty
> much got plowed every day, thinking he wasn't a "true drunk" because he and
> his buddies were too "high class" to be drunks.
>
> Oddly enough, the booze didn't hurt his liver. Instead, it's wrecked his
> heart and his kidneys. He started having (cardiac) arrythmia in the late
> 1980s and tests showed his left ventrical was seriously enlarged. The
> cardiologist knew his history and traced the cause directly to his hard
> drinking, which he explained irritates the blood vessels over the years,
> putting added stress on the heart, which eventually enlarges the ventrical.
> The doctor told him on no uncertain terms he had to give up all alcohol
> consumption. My dad couldn't accept this, so the doctor told him *maybe* an
> "occasional" glass of wine--like once or twice a year to celebrate a
> special, festive event--would be permissable, but not beyond that. As you
> all must know, there's no such thing as "an occasional" glass of anything
> alcoholic for an addict.
>
> As you can all probably predict, he couldn't do it. Before long, he decided
> "an occasional glass of wine" was once a month, then once a week, then once
> a day. Eventually, he was back to a martini every day, on top of wine
> whenever he felt like it pretty much. He kept having these flair ups of the
> arrythmia and land back in the hospital. Each time it would be the same
> warning--no booze. Each time, he'd try to ease up, but simply could not
> maintain abstinence for very long. After a while, he found a new
> cardiologist (as well as a doctor somewhere who was a big drunk too who told
> him it was OK to have as much booze as he wants, it's all BS that it hurts
> the heart) and of course he lied about staying sober. I know because I
> talked to the doctors more than once and they all told me he reported he
> wasn't drinking.
>
> The last few years, all pretenses are lost. He's drinking straight gin every
> day, going through about a fifth a week, lying to his doctors and telling
> everyone else to mind their own business. It got worse after my mom died 6
> years ago. I guess he felt after that he had no reason to even try to
> moderate his drinking or care about his health. He sees a psychiatrist. The
> shrink knows about his drinking and has told him it's the worst possible
> thing he could be doing to himself, given his heart condition and the huge
> amount of prescription drugs he's on for the sundry medical conditions
> plaguing him. My dad knows it, but does what he wants regardless. How he's
> even alive today is the great mystery of the universe.
>
> He's in and out of the hospital every few weeks. His heart is in congestive
> failure, so he has constant fluid around his lungs and heart, which impairs
> his breathing. This makes it hard for him to walk, even just out the door of
> his building to get a cab. He's had the paramedics over several times now to
> shock his heart and take him to the ER. He had a defibrillator implanted in
> his chest 3 years ago. Somehow, it's keeping him alive. His kidneys are
> functioning at about 25% capacity. His doctor has told him if their
> functioning drops any lower, he will probably need dialysis.
>
> Mercifully, he gave up driving voluntarily almost 2 years ago. Since then,
> he's needed a ride to grocery shop, or he takes a medicab. I used to take
> him shopping--people who have offered to take a list from him and shop for
> him have been refused--but it scared the hell out of me every time. His
> heart is so bad, he would stop every few mins. to lean all the way over the
> shopping cart "to rest" until he felt recovered enough to go on. I kept
> waiting for the day he'd go into sudden cardiac arrest right on the grocery
> store floor, and maybe that would be it (although I know it probably would
> be the most merciful way). He always bought a bottle of gin on each trip. I
> didn't like it, but I didn't see how I could stop him. But in the last
> couple of months, his condition has deteriorated to the point that he can't
> handle getting through the store anymore, so he's relented and let's us
> doing the shopping for him. I have 2 sisters who have been doing the
> shopping for him most of the time. One of my sisters used to refuse to buy
> gin for him, but then she softened and now gets it. She says it's because
> she recognizes he's made his choice, the damage is done, it won't make any
> difference, so he may as well "live" the way he wants to until the end. My
> other sister was buying the gin for him when it was her turn to go, but has
> since stopped.
>
> Yesterday, he needed a few things and there was no one else to shop for him
> so he asked me. He emailed me his list, and of course gin was on it. I knew
> from the get-go that gin would be on the list and that I wouldn't get it for
> him, but I lacked the courage to tell him this outright. I feared that if I
> told him I wouldn't get the gin, he'd tell me forget it and try to go
> himself, which might be the trigger that puts him over the edge. I bought
> the other things on the list and brought them over. When I got there w/ the
> groceries, I couldn't stall any longer and I had to tell him I didn't get
> the gin for him because I don't feel right about it. Predictably, he was
> pretty upset. I told him I'm sorry, but I just can't do it. He said I
> should've told him so he could've gone himself. In some ways, I don't know
> why I bothered. Next time, he just won't ask me, but will find someone who
> will get it for him, or will try to go out for it himself. I know that my
> one sister is no doubt right...it probably doesn't make a difference any
> more, the damage is done, that it's a matter of time and probably not much
> of it, either way. I just don't want to be party to it. If he's determined
> to kill himself slowly w/ alcohol poisoning, I can't stop him, I know. But
> that doesn't mean I have to help him do it, or make it easy for him.
>
> I know that I'm right, but I can't stop feeling bad even so.
>
> Anyone have any thoughts?
>
> KimStar

[Roger211]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 12:09:34 -0400, KimStar wrote
(in article <2f1Eg.6934$1f6.5928@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>):

> And here I disagree w/ you. I don't agree that it's "my job" to end the
> disease. If it truly was my job, I'd do it. But I can't stop my father from
> drinking. All I can do is refuse to participate by bringing booze to him.
> I've notified his doctors that he's lying to them about not drinking. They
> have lectured him sternly that he must stop drinking altogether if he wants
> to reduce these episodes of being so out of breath, he has to be rushed to
> the ER. He's heard it all and he understands it completely, yet he chooses
> to drink straight gin every day. No one can stop him. He's screwed up in a
> lot of ways and he's acting horribly self-destructive. But he's legally
> competent to make his own choices, and while that's the case, I have no
> power to stop him from drinking. The most I can do is not make it easy for
> him by serving as a supplier.
>
> KimStar
>
>

Right on the money, Kim. You didn't cause his problem and it's not your job
to be his savior or enabler.

My family tried to get my granddad to stop drinking for years. Took away his
car keys, refused to buy booze for him, the whole nine yards. His doctors
told him he'd die if he didn't stop. He didn't listen. He got drunk one
night, rolled off his couch, hit his head on the coffee table and died in his
own vomit.

One of the basic truths of powerlessness is that you can't change people.
However, you might (and I emphasize might) be a good influence on him by
living sober yourself. If he doesn't acknowledge it, then you still stayed
sober.

You're never going to "end" anyone's disease. It's more a "chronic
condition," anyway. It can be arrested, but never ended. That's Alcoholism
101.

[KimStar]

"tonykujawa" wrote:
> He's 85, cut him a F-ing break already. It's what makes him happy.
> Why be a ninny and deny it?

So you're saying I should get the gin for him?

KimStar

[KimStar]

"Roger211" wrote:
> My family tried to get my granddad to stop drinking for years. Took away
> his
> car keys, refused to buy booze for him, the whole nine yards. His doctors
> told him he'd die if he didn't stop. He didn't listen. He got drunk one
> night, rolled off his couch, hit his head on the coffee table and died in
> his
> own vomit.

Oh god, what an awful way to die! This is what I fear most for my
father...an awful death like this.

> One of the basic truths of powerlessness is that you can't change people.
> However, you might (and I emphasize might) be a good influence on him by
> living sober yourself. If he doesn't acknowledge it, then you still stayed
> sober.

I don't have a drinking problem at all. My husband and I drink only
occasionally, and never to excess. I can't even handle much alcohol at all.
When I do have a little wine w/ dinner, it's usually no more than half a
glass. It's very rare if I ever have a mixed drink. We have a couple of wine
coolers and a bottle of beer leftover from a party we had here almost a year
ago. I really should probably throw them out after all this time.

> You're never going to "end" anyone's disease. It's more a "chronic
> condition," anyway. It can be arrested, but never ended. That's Alcoholism
> 101.

I know. I don't have any illusions of "curing" my dad. A while back, I
explored arranging an intervention and maybe getting him checked into a
rehab program. But I couldn't get anyone on board w/ that, not even the
psychiatrist, so I abandoned that hope and have resigned myself to the
inevitable.
I just wish I didn't have to feel so bad when I tell him no to getting him
gin.

Update: I learned this morning that my sister--the one who had recently told
him she would no longer buy gin for him--relented and got him a bottle when
he begged her to yesterday morning. She told me she agreed to it on one
condition: that he use a shot glass to measure the gin and have no more than
one shot per day, w/ a goal to decrease the amount every week until he gives
it up altogether. She explained it to me that it's a way to maybe get him to
take a small step that would lead to another and another.

I emailed her back and told her directly but as gently as I could that this
was a futile approach; there's no way he's going to do that and it's not
possible for a drunk to go dry by tapering off slowly like kicking nicotine.
I added that there's no "safe amount" of alcohol for either an addict or
someone w/ his heart condition to consume. I told her I wasn't criticizing,
nor could I dictate her conscience to her--only my own. But I added that I
feel it's necessary to cut the BS and talk honestly about what's going on.

Anyway, he's got his gin now. By next week, he'll be out and want another
bottle. But I doubt he'll ask me again. So problem solved I guess.

KimStar

[DaveB]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 16:09:34 GMT, "KimStar" <kimstar2856@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>> "KimStar" wrote:
>
>>><...@...com wrote:
>>>> Have you gone to alanon? Might be worth your effort.
>
>>>I'm really not a "meetings" person.
>
>> Doesn't sound like you want help too bad then.
>> They're not that hard to attend and you get support from others with
>> similar problems. Give it a try, your dad's life depends on it from
>> what you said.
>
>If I attend meetings or if it I sit w/ it alone, I have no intention of
>buying the booze for him either way. So my dad's life does not depend on me
>attending meetings.
>
>>>He would most certainly detect he wasn't getting alcohol.
>
>> It probably won't work, but you never know. Depends on how his mind
>> is. They have N/A wines too. But if you cant get it to him, then I
>> guess you can't try. Of course whoever brings it to him could do it.
>
>He's somewhat forgetful and sometimes confused these days, but he's not so
>far gone that he could be fooled into thinking he's drinking something w/
>alcohol in it when he isn't. He's an addict and his body would "know" if it
>was getting its fix or not, even if he was too out of it to know the
>difference.
>
>>>> You could probably call all the liquor stores that deliver and explain
>>>> to them that because of his health, he can not drink and you dont want
>>>> anything delivered to him. If that dont work, put it in writing and
>>>> get it notorized, and deliver it to each store. In the letter, tell
>>>> them if something happens to him as a result of their delivering to
>>>> him, you will hold them liable. That ought to put a stop to the
>>>> deliveries.
>
>>>I don't see that working.
>
>> I do.....
>> If someone walked in by him and points a gun at him, I bet you'd call
>> the police. From what you said, the liquor will kill him as much as
>> any gun. If the stores do deliver the booze after you tell them in
>> writing that it is a matter of life and death, you can legally sue
>> them for manslaughter. Make that point very clear in your letters,
>> and I know they won't deliver. But first, you have to tell them in
>> writing.
>
>There's a clear law against threatening someone w/ a gun, and even from
>someone attempting to commit suicide. However, there is no law against a
>merchant selling a legally allowed product to an adult, and there's no law
>against anyone w/ any health condition buying a product that is unhealthy
>for him or her. People w/ emphysema or lung cancer can buy cigarettes, and
>any merchant can sell the cigarettes to this person even if the merchant is
>fully aware of the customer's health condition. And the merchant cannot be
>held liable for damages if something bad happens to the customer due to
>consuming the product purchased.
>
>>>I just don't want to be the one to make it easier for him. But the
>>>other day I was thinking maybe my sister is right...what the hell
>>>difference
>>>does it make at this point? He's a goner anyway, the damage is done. The
>>>fix
>>>makes him more comfortable for the moment, even though it's not long
>>>between
>>>hospital treatments that he goes into distress again from the fluid
>>>accumulating around his heart and on his lungs. Is it cruel to deprive him
>>>of that very temporary feeling of comfort he gets from the gin fix?
>
>> Yeah, but if you make sure he doesn't get any more booze, he may heal.
>
>Even if he stopped drinking today and never touched another drop, the damage
>to his heart will not "heal". The heart muscle does not repair itself. It's
>not like the liver which regenerates. And in persons w/ advanced alcoholism
>of many years, there's a certain point where even the liver does not repair
>itself anymore. If there's too much damage, there's not enough healthy
>tissue to regenerate. But in any case, the heart never repairs itself.
>
>> Threaten to sue anyone that gives him booze, and I mean ANYONE. Even
>> relatives. I am not a lawyer, but I have a good understanding of the
>> law.
>
>Yeah well, I'm no lawyer either, but my understanding of the law is
>diffierent from yours. And my understanding is, no one can be liable for
>providing alcohol to someone who is legally of age to purchase it. The
>exception is tavern owners and their staff...if they see someone overtly
>intoxicated, or someone who has had drink after drink while there, they can
>refuse to serve them anything more. And if they do, and the person leaves
>and has an accident, and someone gets hurt or killed, or property is
>damaged, the tavern owner may be liable for damages. But a liquor or grocery
>store that delivers or sells an alcoholic product to someone identified to
>them as having a serious health problem that may be exacerbated by consuming
>alcohol has no obligation to refuse to sell the product. Same is true of
>anyone who purchases the alcohol for the same person. There's no law against
>it, and there would be no basis for a lawsuit against any such persons. Any
>suit filed would be thrown out immediately as having no merit.
>
>>>It hurt to see him cry like that when I told him I didn't get it.
>
>> I am sure it did, but YOU are in the RIGHT. Remember that.
>> Alcoholism is a disease. Remember that too.
>
>I do know both things.
>
>> Now it's your job to end the disease. No booze means no more alcohol
>> abuse.
>
>And here I disagree w/ you. I don't agree that it's "my job" to end the
>disease. If it truly was my job, I'd do it. But I can't stop my father from
>drinking. All I can do is refuse to participate by bringing booze to him.
>I've notified his doctors that he's lying to them about not drinking. They
>have lectured him sternly that he must stop drinking altogether if he wants
>to reduce these episodes of being so out of breath, he has to be rushed to
>the ER. He's heard it all and he understands it completely, yet he chooses
>to drink straight gin every day. No one can stop him. He's screwed up in a
>lot of ways and he's acting horribly self-destructive. But he's legally
>competent to make his own choices, and while that's the case, I have no
>power to stop him from drinking. The most I can do is not make it easy for
>him by serving as a supplier.
>
>KimStar
>
>
Kim. well said , your right on.


Best Regards
Daveb

[DaveB]

On 14 Aug 2006 11:27:37 -0700, "tonykujawa" <tkujawa@clappdico.com>
wrote:

>He's 85, cut him a F-ing break already. It's what makes him happy.
>Why be a ninny deny it?
>
>
>Tony, how long you been sober?

Best
Daveb

[ToadVenomDMT]

KimStar wrote:
> "tonykujawa" wrote:
>
>>He's 85, cut him a F-ing break already. It's what makes him happy.
>>Why be a ninny and deny it?
>
>
> So you're saying I should get the gin for him?
>
> KimStar
>
>
you did the right thing. Unfortunately i'm sure
he found another way to get it. Feel fortunate
though he's still alive and have live as long as
he is, as he's probably set in his ways
unfortunatley you won't get him to change his
drinking. It sucks just the way it goes.

[ByTor]

In article <zhmDg.6006$o27.4128@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>, kimstar2856
@yahoo.com says...

> "ByTor" wrote:
> > Wonder if not buying it for him would also do more harm? Sort of a
> > catch-22 I suppose...........I'm not a doctor so that was just a
> > thought, not trying to increase or add to the guilt but if a physical
> > addiction is present than who knows ya know. I'd consult a doctor on
> > that part as I would suppose the DT's could increase the stress on the
> > body...........I dunno though Kim, I really feel for ya as it is a tough
> > situation.........
> >
> > Good Luck!
>
> Thanks. I *have* talked to several of his doctors about this, most reccently
> the last time he was in the hospital, just a couple of months ago. They said
> absolutely, no exception to it, he should NOT have a single drop of any kind
> of alcohol. They say it can have a disastrous effect interacting w/ the
> various medications he's on, and it's exacerbating his cardiac condition
> which is at the point that it's interferring w/ his breathing. He's on
> oxygen at home. They didn't say anything about it could be more dangerous
> for him to go through addiction withdrawal than to drink.
>
> I know he was wanting that gin bad by the time I got there. He told me he
> had "nothing" in the house to drink. I told him--sarcastically--to drink the
> apple juice I brought him, which was on his shopping list. I can imagine how
> bad he was craving it by then. He started crying, but tried to pull himself
> together quickly. He did thank me before I left, just for doing the
> shopping. He knows I'm right. He knows he's doing a bad thing. But I'm sure
> it didn't make him feel any better.
>
> As I was writing this, I heard from my sister--the one who will bring him
> the gin. She said he called him early today and asked her if she'd like to
> stop by for a visit, and if so, could she go to the Walgreens for him. They
> have a liquor dept. He told her how I went shopping for him, but that I
> wouldn't bring him the gin. She said she heard about it already. He said he
> appreciated me taking him out this week and doing the shopping yesterday, so
> she thinks he's not mad at me. She told him she could come by tomorrow in
> the later afternoon. He said it's a nice day today and maybe he'll go up to
> the Walgreens himself then (it's about 2 blocks from him, which is almost
> more than he can walk, but he can probably just do it). We both know what's
> on his mind. I'm just surprised he didn't go already. I wonder how he got
> through the night.
>
> This may sound ugly, but it wouldn't be so bad if he'd just die quickly. But
> the way he's doing it stinks. He gets so that he's gasping for air and has
> to go to the ER, either by ambulance or medicab. They admit him each time
> and put him in the CCU on IV diuretics for 2 or 3 days to get the fluid off
> his heart and lungs and he gets no liquor for the time. So he improves
> marginally and goes home. He's back drinking straight gin within a week and
> the cycle starts all over again. I used to take him out occasionally, to a
> movie or to lunch. But even that is almost too hard to do anymore because
> his walking is so bad. He gets badly winded and has to stop to rest after
> about 10 steps. He refuses to use a wheelchair, a walker or even a cane. He
> has to lean on me as he stumbles along. Did I mention he's also going blind?
> So reading and even watching TV is becoming extremely difficult for him. His
> world has narrowed so much, he has almost no life at all now.
>
> What a FU'd way to go. I almost feel I'm being cruel to deny him his gin,
> the only pleasure left to him anymore. But I still can't do it.
>
> KimStar

Hello again Kim, sorry I haven't responded back but have been following
your thread with much interest.

You appear to have a good understanding of the addiction process and
it's drawbacks and I commend you for that. I couldn't begin to go back &
quote your replies but I will say this, I think you are handling it
quite well and should not feel responsible in any way........I
understand, believe me, the confusion surrounding someone afflicted &
slaved to an addiction. It's tough watching someone stripped & weakened
by their addiction.....Especially a parent as they are still seen
through the eyes of a child even though we are full grown adults.....Not
sure I can explain that one but only relate to it.........

I myself lost my father at the age of *46* due to health issues
complicated by alcoholism.....Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to
make you feel worse, it's not my intention as you will see furthur as
you read......... ;0)

At that time I was **FULL** blown in the phases of my addictions & quite
out of control(it lasted at least another 5yrs). I sometimes feel to
this day a sense of guilt that I contributed to my fathers weakened
state as he was a very strong controlling type individual &
proud......Watching me sink to the levels I did really took it's toll on
him burdening him with tremendous guilt. I personally think he just gave
up as he couldn't bear the fact that he could not get control of the
situation with himself & me.......He wasn't the touchy feely type if you
know what I mean, and his ideas of discipline were a little out
there.....put it to ya this way, these days he wouldn't get away with
it.
The reason I'm sharing this is that your situation is reminding me *SO*
much how important it is for me to stay sober/clean as I have 2
daughters, one 8yrs & my other almost 9mo......I am thankful & hopeful
that my kids will **never** have to ever see me in a state of mind other
than myself if ya get my meaning.........I'm only 42yrs old, been
married about 9yrs & sober/clean now going on 16yrs.
I would hope that at least in your mind you know you're doing the right
thing and protecting yourself from emotional conflict, there is nothing
wrong with that. I would only wish that my father lasted as long as
yours is to see his grandkids, me.........I'm really hoping that this is
all coming out right in the way I'm expressing it, I usually don't do to
well with matters of the heart but in essence I would hope that you can
look back & say ya know what, I did what I could, we had moments, he's
had a full life at least watching his kids grow & take their place in
the world ya know.........I would at least want to be comforted in the
fact that later on in the years I can hope to pass on something like
that to my kids & watch them grow & take their place.

It's not selfish of me, and please don't take it that way, but your
situation only helps reinforce my desire to maintain sobriety as I would
never want to put my kids through the potential guilt & insanity that
comes with addictions.....Just plain old age is bad enough.....He,
He.....I should know in a way, my mother is still alive & climbing the
ladder of age, but she's like the energizer bunny ya know. I get tired &
wanna nap just watching her all day.......Geeeeeeez, she watches her
grandkids while we all work, juggles all of them around, my youngest is
already standing up & crawling like a champ....she'll be walking very
soon giving my mom heart attacks........But, she **LOVES** every minute
of it and I'm glad she's around to enjoy it ya know........My father,
well I think you can only guess what would wish for......

But anyways, I wanted to share that with ya and am glad that you appear
to be handling your situation as well as can be. I know it's tough
watching a parent go like that and maybe the end coming sooner is not
something to feel bad about ya know.......It is tough, but after 86yrs I
would think he has had his satisfying moments & I think that that's what
is important especially now, remembering & reflecting on the good done
rather than the last moments of a weakened state..........

[KimStar]

"ByTor" wrote:
> Hello again Kim, sorry I haven't responded back but have been following
> your thread with much interest.

That's OK...you're not under any obligation to reply.

> I myself lost my father at the age of *46* due to health issues
> complicated by alcoholism.....Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to
> make you feel worse, it's not my intention as you will see furthur as
> you read......... ;0)

I'm very sorry you lost your father so early. Your father was a few years
younger than I am now when he died, so I see that as very young to die. I
know that I'm lucky that I had both my parents so long. My mother died 6
years ago, at age 80, and that was years longer than anyone thought she
would based on how ill she was for the last part of her life. My mother
wasn't a drinker---I never saw her take a drop of anything alcoholic my
whole life. But she had advanced coronary artery disease. She stuck
rigorously to a regime of healthy eating, regular exercise, keeping her
weight down and staying on schedule w/ all the medications she had to take.
Even so, her arteries would plug up w/ plaque at a heightened pace. It's a
disease and medical science really doesn't know why it happens.

The main reasons both parents survived so long despite what was being done
to their bodies (in my mother's case, it was a disease causing the damage,
in my father's, it's his alcoholism doing it) are that they had/have
naturally strong constitutions and that they were lucky to have premiere
health care. Because my dad made a good living and had private insurance,
which he kept after he retired, and because they live in a major metro area
w/ top-notch doctors and hospitals, they were able to access probably the
best health care services available.

I know a lot of people who lost one or both parents when the parent or
parents were still relatively young. I know more than one person who has
lost a parent to alcoholism. So I realize that my story is the exception (as
far as having an alcoholic parent goes) rather than the rule.

> At that time I was **FULL** blown in the phases of my addictions & quite
> out of control(it lasted at least another 5yrs). I sometimes feel to
> this day a sense of guilt that I contributed to my fathers weakened
> state as he was a very strong controlling type individual &
> proud......Watching me sink to the levels I did really took it's toll on
> him burdening him with tremendous guilt. I personally think he just gave
> up as he couldn't bear the fact that he could not get control of the
> situation with himself & me.......He wasn't the touchy feely type if you
> know what I mean, and his ideas of discipline were a little out
> there.....put it to ya this way, these days he wouldn't get away with
> it.

That's very sad. My father too has a strong, domineering, controlling
personality, and he has deep-seated rage. He only beat on me a few times
while I was growing up, but he had a terrible temper and would fly into the
most terrifying rages fairly often, sometimes at the drop of a hat. He would
scream and use horrible language, and say terrible things to people. Hateful
things. He could be very cruel.

He was in a high-pressure career and all of his colleagues were drunks too.
Most of them anyway. My father has sometimes said that the pressures of his
work and of raising a family drove him to drink. Miraculously, none of us
developed a drinking problem, so he didn't have that guilt to deal w/ that
your father had. I guess all the kids presented their own challenges to my
parents, though. But whatever it was, there's no excuse for turning into a
drunk. Everyone has pressures in life. I would wager the average adult has a
fairly high level of stress w/ which to contend on an ongoing basis, most of
the time.

> The reason I'm sharing this is that your situation is reminding me *SO*
> much how important it is for me to stay sober/clean as I have 2
> daughters, one 8yrs & my other almost 9mo......I am thankful & hopeful
> that my kids will **never** have to ever see me in a state of mind other
> than myself if ya get my meaning.........I'm only 42yrs old, been
> married about 9yrs & sober/clean now going on 16yrs.

First, congratulations on staying sober for 16 years. That's a record to be
proud of. Good luck too in your committment to staying sober. I also
congratulate you on your wise insights on the value of sobriety in raising a
family. By staying sober, you are definitely giving a most important gift to
your children, as well as to yourself and to your spouse, and all the people
who care about you. But it's especially important what you're doing for your
children, IMO. You're setting an excellent example and you are giving them
time w/ their father that won't be colored (on both sides--yours and theirs)
by the haze of alcohol. You'll be leaving them w/ much happier memories and
you will not be sticking them w/ the onerous task of being adult children
trying to figure out how to manage their alcoholic father. Like I'm doing
right now.

> I would hope that at least in your mind you know you're doing the right
> thing and protecting yourself from emotional conflict, there is nothing
> wrong with that. I would only wish that my father lasted as long as
> yours is to see his grandkids, me.........I'm really hoping that this is
> all coming out right in the way I'm expressing it, I usually don't do to
> well with matters of the heart but in essence I would hope that you can
> look back & say ya know what, I did what I could, we had moments, he's
> had a full life at least watching his kids grow & take their place in
> the world ya know.........I would at least want to be comforted in the
> fact that later on in the years I can hope to pass on something like
> that to my kids & watch them grow & take their place.

I think you said what you did just fine. I'm pretty sure I know just what
you're saying. As I said, I know I have a lot to be grateful for, even w/ as
difficult as things are w/ him now.

> It's not selfish of me, and please don't take it that way, but your
> situation only helps reinforce my desire to maintain sobriety as I would
> never want to put my kids through the potential guilt & insanity that
> comes with addictions.....

Good for you on that! If sharing my story here has helped sharpened your
resolve to spare your children from the kind of misery I and my siblings
must contend w/ now, then I'm all the more glad I took the time to post.

> Just plain old age is bad enough.....He,
> He.....I should know in a way, my mother is still alive & climbing the
> ladder of age, but she's like the energizer bunny ya know. I get tired &
> wanna nap just watching her all day.......Geeeeeeez, she watches her
> grandkids while we all work, juggles all of them around, my youngest is
> already standing up & crawling like a champ....she'll be walking very
> soon giving my mom heart attacks........But, she **LOVES** every minute
> of it and I'm glad she's around to enjoy it ya know........My father,
> well I think you can only guess what would wish for......

Yes, I imagine I can. But it's great you still have your mother and that
she's so active and in such great shape--able to be there for her kids and
her grandkids.

> But anyways, I wanted to share that with ya and am glad that you appear
> to be handling your situation as well as can be. I know it's tough
> watching a parent go like that and maybe the end coming sooner is not
> something to feel bad about ya know.......

I probably didn't make myself clear on this, but I'm ready for the end. If
his death came today, there's no way I could characterize it as a tragedy by
any stretch. I know there will be unresolved issues for me, but that's
hardly tragic. The real problem is, the time left to him could be protracted
w/ a poor quality of life. The damage done to his heart has greatly impacted
his mobility and the level of independence he can hope to maintain. He has
stated many times, quite emphatically, that he will never go into assisted
living, nursing home care or allow a caretaker to live w/ him. I'm sure he's
quite serious about this, but he may not have the choice. If he continues
like this--and I don't see a reason why he won't--eventually he will need
more help than we can offer him by doing his shopping for him--w/ or w/o
getting him the booze. It may come down to a question of imposing our wills
over his own very pronounced one, and that will be a crushing blow for him,
no doubt. Also, it could be a very painful situation for his children.

That's what I meant when I talked about my fears about what's ahead for him.

>It is tough, but after 86yrs I
> would think he has had his satisfying moments & I think that that's what
> is important especially now, remembering & reflecting on the good done
> rather than the last moments of a weakened state..........

86 in another month, and you're right...in spite of it all, he's had a good
and full life. He functioned remarkably well while being a hardened
alcoholic most of his adult life, and I know he enjoyed his work and having
a family, even though he's complained about the pressures of both. He had a
ton of friends, and a lot of adventures. He got to see a good bit of the
world and enjoys a reasonably comfortable life today, aside from his
significant health issues. He had his share of hardships and heartaches, as
I guess most everyone does, but I think all of that was offset by the
successes and triumphs he acheived. Altogether, it hasn't been so bad. It's
just that the situation right now is rather difficult.

But thank you ByTor for your feedback, and for sharing your own experiences
and views w/ me. I appreciate what you've said.

KimStar