Truthful statistics about AA

[tedw]

Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:

http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67



"Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five
years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31
percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of
members is more than five years."


However what the Betty Ford Center says does not square with a lot of
other information, some from official AA sources.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

"For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics
Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys
where they counted their members and asked questions like how long
members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the
surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed,
published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no
date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number
of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only.
It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop
out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8

Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded
these numbers:

* 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
* 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
* 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
* and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year. "



Or this from the world services meeting of AA in Australia:




Australian General Service Conference 1994
Chairman's Opening Address

"Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still
attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"

Dr. Ron Whitington -- Chairman, General Service Board.

1994 WORLD SERVICE MEETING
HIGHLIGHTS
COUNTRY REPORT
AUSTRALIA

.... The survey was a well conducted professional study involving 1,425
members from 123 of the country's AA groups ...

************************************************** ************************************************** ***

It should be obvious that the success rate cannot be both 5% and 35%.
And there are also other non-AA studies suggesting very low success
rates. Some even suggesting that the best that can be said is that AA
doesnt hurt the so-called natural recovery process.


The 12 step programs are the predominate therapy at treatment centers
in the United States. Objectively, it looks like there is little to no
evidence to suggest that they are successful.


Despite this, Treatment centers are boasting 35% success rates. It
looks like they are out to line thier own pockets and taht they are
outright misreprenting facts. Of course, if Im wrong about this, just
show me where I am wrong. I will appreciate it.

[scoobie]

tedw wrote:
> Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
>
> http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67
>
>
>
> "Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
> 1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
> and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five
> years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31
> percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of
> members is more than five years."
>
>
> However what the Betty Ford Center says does not square with a lot of
> other information, some from official AA sources.
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
>
> "For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics
> Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys
> where they counted their members and asked questions like how long
> members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the
> surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed,
> published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no
> date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number
> of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only.
> It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop
> out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8
>
> Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded
> these numbers:
>
> * 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
> * 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
> * 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
> * and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year. "
>
>
>
> Or this from the world services meeting of AA in Australia:
>
>
>
>
> Australian General Service Conference 1994
> Chairman's Opening Address
>
> "Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still
> attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
> Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"
>
> Dr. Ron Whitington -- Chairman, General Service Board.
>
> 1994 WORLD SERVICE MEETING
> HIGHLIGHTS
> COUNTRY REPORT
> AUSTRALIA
>
> ... The survey was a well conducted professional study involving 1,425
> members from 123 of the country's AA groups ...
>
> ************************************************** ************************************************** ***
>
> It should be obvious that the success rate cannot be both 5% and 35%.
> And there are also other non-AA studies suggesting very low success
> rates. Some even suggesting that the best that can be said is that AA
> doesnt hurt the so-called natural recovery process.
>
>
> The 12 step programs are the predominate therapy at treatment centers
> in the United States. Objectively, it looks like there is little to no
> evidence to suggest that they are successful.
>
>
> Despite this, Treatment centers are boasting 35% success rates. It
> looks like they are out to line thier own pockets and taht they are
> outright misreprenting facts. Of course, if Im wrong about this, just
> show me where I am wrong. I will appreciate it.
>
s

[JimB]

scoobie wrote:
> tedw wrote:
> > Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
> >
> > http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67
> >
> >
> >
> > "Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
> > 1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
> > and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five
> > years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31
> > percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of
> > members is more than five years."
> >
> >
> > However what the Betty Ford Center says does not square with a lot of
> > other information, some from official AA sources.
> >
> > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
> >
> > "For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics
> > Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys
> > where they counted their members and asked questions like how long
> > members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the
> > surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed,
> > published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no
> > date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number
> > of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only.
> > It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop
> > out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8
> >
> > Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded
> > these numbers:
> >
> > * 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
> > * 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
> > * 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
> > * and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year. "
> >
> >
> >
> > Or this from the world services meeting of AA in Australia:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Australian General Service Conference 1994
> > Chairman's Opening Address
> >
> > "Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still
> > attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
> > Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"
> >
> > Dr. Ron Whitington -- Chairman, General Service Board.
> >
> > 1994 WORLD SERVICE MEETING
> > HIGHLIGHTS
> > COUNTRY REPORT
> > AUSTRALIA
> >
> > ... The survey was a well conducted professional study involving 1,425
> > members from 123 of the country's AA groups ...
> >
> > ************************************************** ************************************************** ***
> >
> > It should be obvious that the success rate cannot be both 5% and 35%.
> > And there are also other non-AA studies suggesting very low success
> > rates. Some even suggesting that the best that can be said is that AA
> > doesnt hurt the so-called natural recovery process.
> >
> >
> > The 12 step programs are the predominate therapy at treatment centers
> > in the United States. Objectively, it looks like there is little to no
> > evidence to suggest that they are successful.
> >
> >
> > Despite this, Treatment centers are boasting 35% success rates. It
> > looks like they are out to line thier own pockets and taht they are
> > outright misreprenting facts. Of course, if Im wrong about this, just
> > show me where I am wrong. I will appreciate it.
> >
> s

This just in - 99.999% of people who went to AA have (A) happily stayed
with it (B) Moved on sober (C) moved on.

Rarely have we seen the person who has throughly A, B or C, who cannot
get over it, never should have attended, can't let it go and get a
life, and coninues to drink. They are naturally incapable people.

JimB

[alcoholic@aa.com]

On 5 Aug 2006 12:20:10 -0700, "tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:

The only confusion is in your own mind.
If you take your meds and you might feel a bit less confused.

[Andy F.]

"tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154805610.375673.15820@n13g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
>
> http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67
>
>
>
> "Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
> 1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
> and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five
> years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31
> percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of
> members is more than five years."
>
>
> However what the Betty Ford Center says does not square with a lot of
> other information, some from official AA sources.
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
>
> "For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics
> Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys
> where they counted their members and asked questions like how long
> members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the
> surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed,
> published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no
> date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number
> of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only.
> It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop
> out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8
>
> Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded
> these numbers:
>
> * 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
> * 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
> * 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
> * and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year. "
>
>
>
> Or this from the world services meeting of AA in Australia:
>
>
>
>
> Australian General Service Conference 1994
> Chairman's Opening Address
>
> "Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still
> attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
> Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"
>
> Dr. Ron Whitington -- Chairman, General Service Board.
>
> 1994 WORLD SERVICE MEETING
> HIGHLIGHTS
> COUNTRY REPORT
> AUSTRALIA
>
> ... The survey was a well conducted professional study involving 1,425
> members from 123 of the country's AA groups ...
>
> ************************************************** ************************************************** ***
>
> It should be obvious that the success rate cannot be both 5% and 35%.
> And there are also other non-AA studies suggesting very low success
> rates. Some even suggesting that the best that can be said is that AA
> doesnt hurt the so-called natural recovery process.
>
>
> The 12 step programs are the predominate therapy at treatment centers
> in the United States. Objectively, it looks like there is little to no
> evidence to suggest that they are successful.
>
>
> Despite this, Treatment centers are boasting 35% success rates. It
> looks like they are out to line thier own pockets and taht they are
> outright misreprenting facts. Of course, if Im wrong about this, just
> show me where I am wrong. I will appreciate it.
>
You're misinterpreting the statistics.

[tedw]

Andy F. wrote:
> "tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1154805610.375673.15820@n13g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> > Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
> >
> > http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67
> >
> >
> >
> > "Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
> > 1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
> > and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five
> > years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31
> > percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of
> > members is more than five years."
> >
> >
> > However what the Betty Ford Center says does not square with a lot of
> > other information, some from official AA sources.
> >
> > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
> >
> > "For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics
> > Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys
> > where they counted their members and asked questions like how long
> > members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the
> > surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed,
> > published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no
> > date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number
> > of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only.
> > It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop
> > out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8
> >
> > Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded
> > these numbers:
> >
> > * 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
> > * 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
> > * 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
> > * and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year. "
> >
> >
> >
> > Or this from the world services meeting of AA in Australia:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Australian General Service Conference 1994
> > Chairman's Opening Address
> >
> > "Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still
> > attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
> > Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"
> >
> > Dr. Ron Whitington -- Chairman, General Service Board.
> >
> > 1994 WORLD SERVICE MEETING
> > HIGHLIGHTS
> > COUNTRY REPORT
> > AUSTRALIA
> >
> > ... The survey was a well conducted professional study involving 1,425
> > members from 123 of the country's AA groups ...
> >
> > ************************************************** ************************************************** ***
> >
> > It should be obvious that the success rate cannot be both 5% and 35%.
> > And there are also other non-AA studies suggesting very low success
> > rates. Some even suggesting that the best that can be said is that AA
> > doesnt hurt the so-called natural recovery process.
> >
> >
> > The 12 step programs are the predominate therapy at treatment centers
> > in the United States. Objectively, it looks like there is little to no
> > evidence to suggest that they are successful.
> >
> >
> > Despite this, Treatment centers are boasting 35% success rates. It
> > looks like they are out to line thier own pockets and taht they are
> > outright misreprenting facts. Of course, if Im wrong about this, just
> > show me where I am wrong. I will appreciate it.
> >
> You're misinterpreting the statistics.

Is that so? Why dont you provide the proper interpretaition then?

[Mark Warner]

tedw wrote:
> Andy F. wrote:
>>
>> You're misinterpreting the statistics.
>
> Is that so? Why dont you provide the proper interpretaition then?

Figures don't lie, but liars figure.

--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying

[Tim and Lisa]

"Mark Warner" <mhwarner.inhibitions@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:4jno4cF8s0a2U1@individual.net...
> tedw wrote:
>> Andy F. wrote:
>>>
>>> You're misinterpreting the statistics.
>>
>> Is that so? Why dont you provide the proper interpretaition then?
>
> Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
>


One lie never stand alone!!

[Andy F.]

"tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1154909802.656756.207800@i3g2000cwc.googlegro ups.com...
>
> Andy F. wrote:
>> "tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:1154805610.375673.15820@n13g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>> > Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
>> >
>> > http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
>> > 1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
>> > and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five
>> > years; 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31
>> > percent were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of
>> > members is more than five years."
>> >
>> >
>> > However what the Betty Ford Center says does not square with a lot of
>> > other information, some from official AA sources.
>> >
>> > http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html
>> >
>> > "For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics
>> > Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys
>> > where they counted their members and asked questions like how long
>> > members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the
>> > surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed,
>> > published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no
>> > date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number
>> > of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only.
>> > It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop
>> > out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8
>> >
>> > Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded
>> > these numbers:
>> >
>> > * 81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
>> > * 90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
>> > * 93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
>> > * and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year. "
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Or this from the world services meeting of AA in Australia:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Australian General Service Conference 1994
>> > Chairman's Opening Address
>> >
>> > "Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA are still
>> > attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly terrible statistic.
>> > Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"
>> >
>> > Dr. Ron Whitington -- Chairman, General Service Board.
>> >
>> > 1994 WORLD SERVICE MEETING
>> > HIGHLIGHTS
>> > COUNTRY REPORT
>> > AUSTRALIA
>> >
>> > ... The survey was a well conducted professional study involving 1,425
>> > members from 123 of the country's AA groups ...
>> >
>> > ************************************************** ************************************************** ***
>> >
>> > It should be obvious that the success rate cannot be both 5% and 35%.
>> > And there are also other non-AA studies suggesting very low success
>> > rates. Some even suggesting that the best that can be said is that AA
>> > doesnt hurt the so-called natural recovery process.
>> >
>> >
>> > The 12 step programs are the predominate therapy at treatment centers
>> > in the United States. Objectively, it looks like there is little to no
>> > evidence to suggest that they are successful.
>> >
>> >
>> > Despite this, Treatment centers are boasting 35% success rates. It
>> > looks like they are out to line thier own pockets and taht they are
>> > outright misreprenting facts. Of course, if Im wrong about this, just
>> > show me where I am wrong. I will appreciate it.
>> >
>> You're misinterpreting the statistics.
>
> Is that so? Why dont you provide the proper interpretaition then?
>
The proper interpretation is that the 35% figure and the 5% figure are both
probably correct.The different surveys were measuring different things.
If you want to discuss AA's 'success rate' you ought to define exactly what
you mean by that.

[Mark Warner]

Andy F. wrote:
> If you want to discuss AA's 'success rate' you ought to define
> exactly what you mean by that.

I think it would be "finding Gawd and drinking".

--
Mark Warner
lose .inhibitions when replying

[JimB]

Mark Warner wrote:
> Andy F. wrote:
> > If you want to discuss AA's 'success rate' you ought to define
> > exactly what you mean by that.
>
> I think it would be "finding Gawd and drinking".
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> lose .inhibitions when replying

Sad to say, ol' teddy is finding God while/by drinking.........
Pretty soon he may be a real alcoholic, and not an addict in piss poor
recovery!

JimB:-)

[John Meyer]

tedw wrote:
> Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
>
> http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67

Confusion, bs'ing, it is all the same.
The fact is, if AA had a 35 percent success rate, they would be
trumpeting that up and down the halls of every psychiatrist's office in
the world. But just a second here, AA did not claim in that study that
they had a 35 percent success rate for the five years. In fact, he
didn't even answer that question. What he said was:

"Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five years;
34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31 percent
were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of members
is more than five years. According to A.A. World services, the survey is
designed to provide information to the professional community and the
general public as part of its purpose to carry the message of recovery
to those who still suffer from alcoholism. For more information about
Alcoholics Anonymous, write to A.A. World Services, Grand Central
Station, Box 459, New York, NY 10163."

In other words 35 percent of the members there had more than five years
sobriety. Now that doesn't count all the members who went back out
there and got blasted. Also, I want to know who counted these surveys,
and who made sure that people with two or three "home groups" didn't
sign twice.

[imbibe@mindspring.com]

tedw wrote:
>
> "Our 1992 Survey showed that only 5% of newcomers to AA
> are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truly
> terrible statistic. Again we must ask 'Where does the fault lie?'"

What percent of people who went to doctors or clergy
for help (but not AA) were sober after 12 months?
..
..
--

[Been There Got A Mug]

tedw wrote:
> Lots of confusion.

Looks like your in those ranks,
So what's your point ?

[a]

<alcoholic@aa.com> wrote in message
news:ifebd2tkom2si63gsncpi9f4ca48qs9d1l@4ax.com...
> On 5 Aug 2006 12:20:10 -0700, "tedw" <tedw2@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
>
> The only confusion is in your own mind.
> If you take your meds and you might feel a bit less confused.

Let me guess: You are really an anti-supportive person bent upon destroying
a community, or just another mean-spirited dry-drunk.

[lestat]

I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as
you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest
bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion. And I certainly
find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I had
a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety. Am I
supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!
As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it. And
now when I hit the clubs I drink nothing but bottled water. And I won't
lie. When I'm out for the night I'd love to have just ONE drink. But I
know that one won't work. "One's too many, ten's not enough". Once you
realize your life is more important than being massively bombed every
night will become a person's wake-up call.

Mark Warner wrote:
> Andy F. wrote:
> > If you want to discuss AA's 'success rate' you ought to define
> > exactly what you mean by that.
>
> I think it would be "finding Gawd and drinking".
>
> --
> Mark Warner
> lose .inhibitions when replying

[imbibe@mindspring.com]

lestat wrote:
> I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as
> you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest
> bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion. And I certainly
> find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I had
> a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety.

From: "lestat" <lestat432...@yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: alt.support.anxiety-panic
Subject: Re: New to the group - scared about xanax help convince me
please
Date: 21 Aug 2006
I've been on 8 mg of Xanax a day for over 10 years and have never had a
problem with it. I'd never leave my house if I weren't taking it. It
gets me around the phobia of being around other people, and helps me
deal with day to day situations.


> Am I
> supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!
> As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
> neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
> myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it. And
> now when I hit the clubs I drink nothing but bottled water. And I won't
> lie. When I'm out for the night I'd love to have just ONE drink. But I
> know that one won't work. "One's too many, ten's not enough". Once you
> realize your life is more important than being massively bombed every
> night will become a person's wake-up call.

[S. LaRocca]

"lestat" <lestat432003@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1157185740.648982.146470
@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as
> you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest
> bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion.

Oops, I guess you've blown our cover... WTF,that's the ticket..Get all of
these dolts to donate a dollar or so, and after we pay the church, club,
or orginization their well deserved rent, we might have five dollars
left. Quite a nights take eh ? We'll get real fucked up on that haul

And I certainly
> find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I had
> a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety.

Souds like your plan of a couple of weeks ago kind of sucked. You might
want to put those friends on the back burner until you get grounded a
bit.

Am I
> supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!

At last, we agree on something... When you have a planned drunk, you're
the only one wearing the dunce cap.


> As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
> neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
> myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it.

Yes, you are responsible for your own actions... I'm an agnostic, and am
not sure about the god thing. You seem to be sure of a god. You might
want to try hanging with him, it, or whoever it may be, than your wet
friends in the clubs for now.


And
> now when I hit the clubs I drink nothing but bottled water. And I won't
> lie. When I'm out for the night I'd love to have just ONE drink. But I
> know that one won't work. "One's too many, ten's not enough". Once you
> realize your life is more important than being massively bombed every
> night will become a person's wake-up call.

Really, I hope your plan of attack works... The smart money sure won't be
on the table for your plan working, at least this soon after a planned
drunk.

[Robert McGregor]

lestat wrote:

Snipped idiotic ignorance. >

>
> Once you
> realize your life is more important than being massively bombed every
> night will become a person's wake-up call.
>

Most if not all the alcoholics I know discovered alcoholic narcolepsy
*precedes* that first drink, so, sooner or later, wake-up calls get to
become monotonous.

--
Bob.

[Tommy]

lestat wrote:
> I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as
> you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest
> bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion. And I certainly
> find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I
> had a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety. Am I
> supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!
> As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
> neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
> myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it. And
> now when I hit the clubs I drink nothing but bottled water. And I
> won't lie. When I'm out for the night I'd love to have just ONE
> drink. But I know that one won't work. "One's too many, ten's not
> enough". Once you realize your life is more important than being
> massively bombed every night will become a person's wake-up call.


So what's your beef???

Are you well, do you think you're cured, are you just an arfer. a skulekid,
a nutcase
I want to know
Cheers
Tommy

[lestat]

Of course I'm not cured. There is no pill to take that cures
alcoholism. And let me guess. You're the average Joe Blow who fits
right into the public and would NEVER be clocked as a lush, and go
about your merry little business and personal life. Guess what? It
doesn't fucking impress me in the least!! So don't even think you can
log on and try and slam me! I'm doing my damnest to keep myself sober
and don't need pricks like you to question what I post on this site,
To put it into words you might recognize: GO TO HELL!!!!

Tommy wrote:
> lestat wrote:
> > I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as
> > you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest
> > bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion. And I certainly
> > find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I
> > had a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety. Am I
> > supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!
> > As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
> > neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
> > myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it. And
> > now when I hit the clubs I drink nothing but bottled water. And I
> > won't lie. When I'm out for the night I'd love to have just ONE
> > drink. But I know that one won't work. "One's too many, ten's not
> > enough". Once you realize your life is more important than being
> > massively bombed every night will become a person's wake-up call.
>
>
> So what's your beef???
>
> Are you well, do you think you're cured, are you just an arfer. a skulekid,
> a nutcase
> I want to know
> Cheers
> Tommy

[DaveB]

On 3 Sep 2006 00:13:25 -0700, "lestat" <lestat432003@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Of course I'm not cured. There is no pill to take that cures
>alcoholism. And let me guess. You're the average Joe Blow who fits
>right into the public and would NEVER be clocked as a lush, and go
>about your merry little business and personal life. Guess what? It
>doesn't fucking impress me in the least!! So don't even think you can
>log on and try and slam me! I'm doing my damnest to keep myself sober
>and don't need pricks like you to question what I post on this site,
>To put it into words you might recognize: GO TO HELL!!!!
>

<snip>

Yo! shit-for-brains ,nobody gives a rats ass what you think.

Daveb

[Tommy]

lestat wrote:
> Of course I'm not cured. There is no pill to take that cures
> alcoholism. And let me guess. You're the average Joe Blow who fits
> right into the public and would NEVER be clocked as a lush, and go
> about your merry little business and personal life. Guess what? It
> doesn't fucking impress me in the least!! So don't even think you can
> log on and try and slam me! I'm doing my damnest to keep myself sober
> and don't need pricks like you to question what I post on this site,
> To put it into words you might recognize: GO TO HELL!!!!

So you don;t like people whod don't fit into your idea of what an alcoholic
should be ehh?

Lookit mate if you want help, ask...
If you just want to be an angry arsehole you have proved your point/

My impression of impressing folks is to soft shoe shuffle around their
ignorant rants. If you can dish it out, arsehole, be prepared to take it,
arsehole.

As far as going to hell, fuck off and read the bible, there is NO HELL.

There is America though, which was probably what God meant when he sent
Lucifer there

Cheers
Tommy

[DaveB]

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:05:59 +0100, "Tommy"
<tommyleprechaunATgmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>There is America though, which was probably what God meant when he sent
>>Lucifer there.


Another brill statement from a uk wanker.
Daveb

[Tommy]

DaveB wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:05:59 +0100, "Tommy"
> <tommyleprechaunATgmail.com> wrote:
>> There is America though, which was probably what God meant when he
>> sent
>>> Lucifer there.
>
>
> Another brill statement from a uk wanker.
> Daveb

I apologize for taking advantage of your ignorance Dave.

Ohh well what do I expect from a pig but a grunt.

Please bring this to your teachers attention -
-

PS PS PS PS PS

IRELAND IS NOT IN THE UK

IRELAND IS NOT IN THE UK

[Tim and Lisa]

"Tommy" <tommyleprechaunATgmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d759$44fc95f1$59644bc0$11218@news.ntlworld.i e...
> DaveB wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 22:05:59 +0100, "Tommy"
>> <tommyleprechaunATgmail.com> wrote:
>>> There is America though, which was probably what God meant when he
>>> sent
>>>> Lucifer there.
>>
>>
>> Another brill statement from a uk wanker.
>> Daveb
>
> I apologize for taking advantage of your ignorance Dave.
>
> Ohh well what do I expect from a pig but a grunt.
>
> Please bring this to your teachers attention -
> -
>
> PS PS PS PS PS
>
> IRELAND IS NOT IN THE UK
>
> IRELAND IS NOT IN THE UK
>


Close enough though. ;o)

[beepsterz]

"John Meyer" <who@knowsdotcom> wrote in message
news:J5mdncdHHrdTan7ZnZ2dnUVZ_u-dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> tedw wrote:
>> Lots of confusion out there. For example,The Betty Ford Center says:
>>
>> http://www.bettyfordcenter.org/news/askdrwest/sdarticle.php?id=67
>
> Confusion, bs'ing, it is all the same.
> The fact is, if AA had a 35 percent success rate, they would be
> trumpeting that up and down the halls of every psychiatrist's office in
> the world. But just a second here, AA did not claim in that study that
> they had a 35 percent success rate for the five years. In fact, he
> didn't even answer that question. What he said was:
>
> "Every few years Alcoholics Anonymous does a survey of its members. In
> 1992, a random survey of 6,500 A.A. members in both the United States
> and Canada revealed that 35 percent were sober for more than five years;
> 34 percent were sober from between one and five years; and 31 percent
> were sober for less than one year. The average time sobriety of members
> is more than five years. According to A.A. World services, the survey is
> designed to provide information to the professional community and the
> general public as part of its purpose to carry the message of recovery
> to those who still suffer from alcoholism. For more information about
> Alcoholics Anonymous, write to A.A. World Services, Grand Central
> Station, Box 459, New York, NY 10163."
>
> In other words 35 percent of the members there had more than five years
> sobriety. Now that doesn't count all the members who went back out
> there and got blasted. Also, I want to know who counted these surveys,
> and who made sure that people with two or three "home groups" didn't
> sign twice.

Every once in a while I take a look around my town, it's a small town; Of
the +/- hundered recyclers there are maybe half a dozen who can be seen off
and on (including the 'secret' drunks) in meetings. I give an anecdotal
(random sampling) 5 year reco rate here at 4-7 percent. This is after
several years of observation balanced by the knowledge that there are
private groups.

I can assure anyone that of the hundred or so 'go again' AA's in this
community, there are not 35 who have been sober more than 5 years; there are
less than six who claim sobriety and go to public meetings and less who go
to private 'religious' meetings.
Of the '6' I discount only the ones I have seen drunk or drinking. Of the
six I know personally of three who have drunk. So there are three seeming
sober regular AA drunks of more than 5 years in my 'random sample'. ( more
than 15 years here) Of course I don't know about those who 'confess' in the
private groups. (nor those who have left the area happy joyous and free or
otherwise)
Given the possibility that there are 100 sober AA's in the secretives, I'll
extrapolate that the reality remains the same, there are 3 truly drink free
there and that gives us six. Introduce a deviance (cuz I'm a deviant mofo)
and we get 3+3+1deviant for a maximum of seven.
Percent.
Of course! There are not exactly 100 at any given societal gathering, but
there are at least one hundred stories and faces I can count, maybe I'm
stilted toward the failure of AA, cuz thats what i see.

This is a random sampling of anecdotal evidence.

TRY IT AT HOME

Better living thru Petroleum

or ethanol

or god

or not

[Joe Jared]

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 01:29:00 -0700, lestat wrote:

> I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as

You're probably right about it being a cult, and possibly a brainwashing
one at that. However, my brain was on spin cycle in dire need of washing.

> you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest

At meetings I've gone to, "Put a dollar in the basket if you can, but if
you can't, stay anyway.

> bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion. And I certainly
> find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I had

Individuals have ideas that unfortunately propagate. If you can't stay
sober around your friends and wish to remain sober, changing friends is a
good idea. Then again, if your friends don't mind you drinking, are they
really your friends?

> a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety. Am I
> supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!

It's not about blaming your friends, it's about choices. If sobriety is
your priority, you'll stay sober.

> As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
> neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
> myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it. And

So tell me, what did that god of yours do to you?

--
http://www.oretek.com
If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/

[beepsterz]

joe jared is a brainwashed puke
"Joe Jared" <joejared@osirusoft.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.19.00.25.50.4407@osirusoft.com...
> On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 01:29:00 -0700, lestat wrote:
>
>> I see AA as just another cult. Go to meetings, donate as much money as
>
> You're probably right about it being a cult, and possibly a brainwashing
> one at that. However, my brain was on spin cycle in dire need of washing.

What the fuck? A little oxyclean or oxycontin may have helped.


>
>> you can, then as soon as AA is over all the members find the nearest
>
> At meetings I've gone to, "Put a dollar in the basket if you can, but if
> you can't, stay anyway.

cuz we want you soul, not yo money or pussy Beatch

>
>> bar they can find to drink themselves into oblivion. And I certainly
>> find their ideas of dumping friends who drink completely idiotic. I had
>
> Individuals have ideas that unfortunately propagate.

So you know what a meme is

If you can't stay
> sober around your friends and wish to remain sober, changing friends is a
> good idea. Then again, if your friends don't mind you drinking, are they
> really your friends?

First part good, second part of sentence just fucking stupid

>
>> a little slip a few weeks ago but am now back to on sobriety. Am I
>> supposed to blame my friends for my bender from Hell? No fucking way!
>
> It's not about blaming your friends, it's about choices. If sobriety is
> your priority, you'll stay sober.


well what the fuck out of context this almost seems ratioanal or reasonable,
but it is in context and is drivel


>
>> As for the "God" shit, He did nothing to get me back on the wagon. I
>> neither ask or want anything God has to offer. It was a bitch to pull
>> myself up and become sober again but God had shit to do with it. And
>
> So tell me, what did that god of yours do to you?

He fucked him in the ass, destroyed 30,000 of his species daily and said,
'what, you wanna piece of me muthAFUKA!!!"

Now go back to your silly hunt mode on usenet and grow a soul, you bitch

BP

ps

I

love

you
>
> --
> http://www.oretek.com
> If you see weird responses, please do not reply to them.
> Simply visit http://www.oretek.com/kookwatch/
>