9-21-03

[rosie readandpost]

September 21, 2003

Daily Reflections

THE LAST PROMISE

We will suddenly realize that HP is doing for us
what we could not do for ourselves.
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, p. 84

The last Promise in the Big Book came true for me
on the very first day of sobriety. HP kept me sober
that day, and on every other day I allowed Him to
operate in my life. He gives me the strength, courage
and guidance to meet my responsibilities in life so
that I am then able to reach out and help others stay
sober and grow. He manifests within me, making me a
channel of His word, thought and deed. He works with
my inner self, while I produce in the outer world, for
He will not do for me what I can do for myself. I must
be willing to do His work, so that He can function
through me successfully.

************************************************** *********

[Rogue]

This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats every
day.

[Shawster]

what a shining example of non AA recovery you are.

why don't *you* head on over to alt recovery from 12 steps? nobody is
ramming anything down your throat. and whom do you mean by *us*?

"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:bkl496$jsd$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
> us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
> are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats
every
> day.
>
>
>

[Tommy]

"Rogue" Wrote in Alt recovery AA

> This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
> us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
> are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats
every
> day.

Have it your own way, but why did you crosspost to araa.

I give you the freedom to killfile us all, okay :-)
Cheers
Tommy

[Bobby L.]

"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:bkl496$jsd$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
> us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
> are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats
every
> day.
>
>
ROTFLMAO

You silly rogue.... you haven't figured it out yet, have you? We don't come
here to keep you sober...we come here to keep us sober. Get it? Damn,
sorry... that probably sounds like something you've heard before -- at a
meeting. LOL

In here you've got two choices...accept what's here or leave. Your call.

Bobby L

[rosie readandpost]

alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism consists of folks sharing about their addiction and their recovery, no matter HOW they
did it!
sorry you feel your getting is SHOVED down your throat though.............................

btw, you might want to be careful with any thread that starts with the date, and my name!
:)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie
http://www.moveon.org/

every reform was once a private opinion.
....................ralph waldo emerson




"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message news:bkl496$jsd$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
> us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
> are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats every
> day.
>
>

[Moonraker]

"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:bkl496$jsd$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
> us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
> are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats
every
> day.
>
>

Don't let the screen door hit you where the Good Lord split you. Buh-bye.

[Craig S.]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:BIqbb.29217$eF3.1681@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> btw, you might want to be careful with any thread that starts with the
date, and my name!

What would the date have to do with it?

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:16:05 -0500, "rosie readandpost"
<readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:

>September 21, 2003
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> THE LAST PROMISE
>
> We will suddenly realize that HP is doing for us
> what we could not do for ourselves.
> ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, p. 84
>
> The last Promise in the Big Book came true for me
> on the very first day of sobriety.

The last promise? There are many more promises beyond that one!

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:13:10 +0000 (UTC), "Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com>
wrote:

>This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many of
>us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please there
>are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats every
>day.

Prudent use of a filter should be all you need to disregard any "daily
reflecion" posts.

--
Blue Moon

[studio]

Sorry for my ignorance.....

But what is HP? I'm assuming Hewlett Packard doesn't have a hand in this
;^)

pause - Higher Power - got it.

I will still post this to lighten eveyone's day.


"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mBgbb.28838$eF3.3633@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> September 21, 2003
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> THE LAST PROMISE
>
> We will suddenly realize that HP is doing for us
> what we could not do for ourselves.
> ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, p. 84
>
> The last Promise in the Big Book came true for me
> on the very first day of sobriety. HP kept me sober
> that day, and on every other day I allowed Him to
> operate in my life. He gives me the strength, courage
> and guidance to meet my responsibilities in life so
> that I am then able to reach out and help others stay
> sober and grow. He manifests within me, making me a
> channel of His word, thought and deed. He works with
> my inner self, while I produce in the outer world, for
> He will not do for me what I can do for myself. I must
> be willing to do His work, so that He can function
> through me successfully.
>
> ************************************************** *********
>
>
>
>

[David M]

studio wrote:

> Sorry for my ignorance.....
>
> But what is HP? I'm assuming Hewlett Packard doesn't
> have a hand in this ;^)
>
> pause - Higher Power - got it.

Right. Hewlett Packard wouldn't qualify. But Bill Gates or
Larry Ellison might. ;-)

[Rogue]

Fair point Rosie, but this is not AA & as I said there are loads of AA
groups that would benefit from your copy/paste. I guess what I wanted was a
no nonsense group that was able to talk about the daily humdrum of life
without booze. Sorry if that upset some posters but it helps me to hear real
life problems & answers not rhetoric from the AA book. If I have misread the
group I apologise and will move on.

[Rogue]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gRobb.21041$Od.835224@twister.tampabay.rr.com ...
> what a shining example of non AA recovery you are.
>
> why don't *you* head on over to alt recovery from 12 steps? nobody is
> ramming anything down your throat. and whom do you mean by *us*?

I reread your post a few times & it didn't make sense to me. I did not do
the 12 steps (AA?). I found my local AA group very unhelpful so turned to
other means, this being one of them.Tell *us* your story, fuck it might help
me or a few others reading this.

[Shawster]

"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:bknnug$571$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
>
> "Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:gRobb.21041$Od.835224@twister.tampabay.rr.com ...
> > what a shining example of non AA recovery you are.
> >
> > why don't *you* head on over to alt recovery from 12 steps? nobody is
> > ramming anything down your throat. and whom do you mean by *us*?
>
> I reread your post a few times & it didn't make sense to me. I did not do
> the 12 steps (AA?). I found my local AA group very unhelpful so turned to
> other means, this being one of them.Tell *us* your story, fuck it might
help
> me or a few others reading this.

rosie posts every day. hence the name. so telling her what to do probably
isn't the best of ideas.

recovery from 12 steps is a group that glad hands each other about how great
their recovery is despite the horrors of others in AA. I thought you might
fit in better over there.

still waiting to hear who US is.

I;'d love to tell my story. But not today, I have conjunctivitis (pinkeye)
and it hurts to look at the computer.

Google me.
>
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

>
> pause - Higher Power - got it.
>
> I will still post this to lighten eveyone's day.


:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie
http://www.moveon.org/

every reform was once a private opinion.
....................ralph waldo emerson




"studio" <studiodave30305@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:iXHbb.16071$8j.9432@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> Sorry for my ignorance.....
>
> But what is HP? I'm assuming Hewlett Packard doesn't have a hand in this
> ;^)
>
> pause - Higher Power - got it.
>
> I will still post this to lighten eveyone's day.
>
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mBgbb.28838$eF3.3633@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > September 21, 2003
> >
> > Daily Reflections
> >
> > THE LAST PROMISE
> >
> > We will suddenly realize that HP is doing for us
> > what we could not do for ourselves.
> > ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS, p. 84
> >
> > The last Promise in the Big Book came true for me
> > on the very first day of sobriety. HP kept me sober
> > that day, and on every other day I allowed Him to
> > operate in my life. He gives me the strength, courage
> > and guidance to meet my responsibilities in life so
> > that I am then able to reach out and help others stay
> > sober and grow. He manifests within me, making me a
> > channel of His word, thought and deed. He works with
> > my inner self, while I produce in the outer world, for
> > He will not do for me what I can do for myself. I must
> > be willing to do His work, so that He can function
> > through me successfully.
> >
> > ************************************************** *********
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

> Sorry if that upset some posters but it helps me to hear real
> life problems & answers not rhetoric from the AA book. If I have misread the
> group I apologise and will move on.
>
>

no apology necessary!
i also like to read and share about daily life problems and answers.
starting my day with a DAILY MEDITATION is just something, since beginning recovery, i have always done, and posting it
to the groups is just a service.
there are alot of us in both groups, who like to read it, but it is not MANDATORY!
don't leave, stick around and post!

rosie

[rosie readandpost]

> I;'d love to tell my story. But not today, I have conjunctivitis (pinkeye)
> and it hurts to look at the computer.
>


OUCH!
hope you heal quickly.
keep your hands well washed and clean............you ARE contagious!

[Virtualoso]

In article <bknna2$kv0$1@hercules.btinternet.com>, Rogue
<nospam@goaway.com> wrote:

> Fair point Rosie, but this is not AA & as I said there are loads of AA
> groups that would benefit from your copy/paste. I guess what I wanted was a
> no nonsense group that was able to talk about the daily humdrum of life
> without booze. Sorry if that upset some posters but it helps me to hear real
> life problems & answers not rhetoric from the AA book. If I have misread the
> group I apologise and will move on.

Maybe try posting what you'd like to see here. Do you require a NG that
somehow doesn't also have other posts, as well?

[Shawster]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HSKbb.30913$eF3.3766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > I;'d love to tell my story. But not today, I have conjunctivitis
(pinkeye)
> > and it hurts to look at the computer.
> >
>
>
> OUCH!
> hope you heal quickly.
> keep your hands well washed and clean............you ARE contagious!

so making out with that girl probably wasn't the best of ideas huh?
>
>
>

[Moonraker]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:OZObb.512$Of2.77234@twister.tampabay.rr.com.. .
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:HSKbb.30913$eF3.3766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > > I;'d love to tell my story. But not today, I have conjunctivitis
> (pinkeye)
> > > and it hurts to look at the computer.
> > >
> >
> >
> > OUCH!
> > hope you heal quickly.
> > keep your hands well washed and clean............you ARE contagious!
>
> so making out with that girl probably wasn't the best of ideas huh?
> >

Ummm....Shaw? Where DID you have your face? Were you looking for love in
all the wrong places? ;>)

[Gail]

Shawster wrote:
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in
message
> news:HSKbb.30913$eF3.3766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>
>>> I;'d love to tell my story. But not today, I have conjunctivitis
>>> (pinkeye) and it hurts to look at the computer.
>>>
>>
>>
>> OUCH!
>> hope you heal quickly.
>> keep your hands well washed and clean............you ARE
contagious!
>
> so making out with that girl probably wasn't the best of ideas huh?

I once knew a guy who liked to do it in her ear. Everytime he tried to
put it in her mouth, she turned her head. You didn't poke her eyes did
ya? ;)

[rosie readandpost]

NOPE!
:)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie
http://www.moveon.org/

every reform was once a private opinion.
....................ralph waldo emerson




"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message news:OZObb.512$Of2.77234@twister.tampabay.rr.com.. .
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:HSKbb.30913$eF3.3766@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > > I;'d love to tell my story. But not today, I have conjunctivitis
> (pinkeye)
> > > and it hurts to look at the computer.
> > >
> >
> >
> > OUCH!
> > hope you heal quickly.
> > keep your hands well washed and clean............you ARE contagious!
>
> so making out with that girl probably wasn't the best of ideas huh?
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 20:50:10 +0000 (UTC), "Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com>
wrote:

>Fair point Rosie, but this is not AA & as I said there are loads of AA
>groups that would benefit from your copy/paste. I guess what I wanted was a
>no nonsense group that was able to talk about the daily humdrum of life
>without booze. Sorry if that upset some posters but it helps me to hear real
>life problems & answers not rhetoric from the AA book. If I have misread the
>group I apologise and will move on.

You didn't misread anything. Rosie just likes to send her daily
spammage, then tell everyone else to stick with sharing their own
experience, strength and hope :)

--
Blue Moon

[Kai]

David M wrote:
> studio wrote:
>
>> Sorry for my ignorance.....
>>
>> But what is HP? I'm assuming Hewlett Packard doesn't
>> have a hand in this ;^)
>>
>> pause - Higher Power - got it.
>
> Right. Hewlett Packard wouldn't qualify. But Bill Gates or
> Larry Ellison might. ;-)

Please, not the "can Satan be my HP" thread.

Kai

[Rogue]

The *US* are the posters who have tried AA and for whatever reason have
found it of little or no use. Sorry Rosie I was tired & pissed off you have
every right to post what you want.

[Rogue]

Fuck you m8, ill smash that screen door in your face on the way in, your
replies don't scare me. I can be brash and say what I feel, yes it makes me
look a cunt sometimes but you or anyone else aren't going to scare me away.
Even negative replies help me & its what I need.

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:bUrbb.12130$8j.4694@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
> news:bkl496$jsd$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> > This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group. Many
of
> > us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please
there
> > are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats
> every
> > day.
> >
> >
>
> Don't let the screen door hit you where the Good Lord split you.
Buh-bye.
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message news:bkqbrb$ao9$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> The *US* are the posters who have tried AA and for whatever reason have
> found it of little or no use. Sorry Rosie I was tired & pissed off you have
> every right to post what you want.
>
>

thanks, but no apology necessary.
you are among many who didn't find what they needed in AA, i hope that the daily reflections, from different sources,
will give your some comfort, anyway!
(((((((((rogue)))))))))

[Shawster]

hmm.

"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:bkqbrb$ao9$2@titan.btinternet.com...
> Fuck you m8, ill smash that screen door in your face on the way in, your
> replies don't scare me. I can be brash and say what I feel, yes it makes
me
> look a cunt sometimes but you or anyone else aren't going to scare me
away.
> Even negative replies help me & its what I need.
>
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:bUrbb.12130$8j.4694@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
> > news:bkl496$jsd$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> > > This is alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism not an AA support group.
Many
> of
> > > us have ether tried AA or don't want to for our own reasons. Please
> there
> > > are loads of AA web sites/newsgroups, don't ram this down our throats
> > every
> > > day.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Don't let the screen door hit you where the Good Lord split you.
> Buh-bye.
> >
> >
>
>
>

[Kai]

Rogue wrote:
> Fuck you m8, ill smash that screen door in your face on the way in,
> your replies don't scare me. I can be brash and say what I feel, yes
> it makes me look a cunt sometimes but you or anyone else aren't going
> to scare me away. Even negative replies help me & its what I need.

A great display of Usenet bravado. Welcome to the groups, you'll fit in just
nice.

Kai

[Moonraker]

"Kai" <soberon@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message
news:bkr940$169$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...
> Rogue wrote:
> > Fuck you m8, ill smash that screen door in your face on the way in,
> > your replies don't scare me. I can be brash and say what I feel, yes
> > it makes me look a cunt sometimes but you or anyone else aren't going
> > to scare me away. Even negative replies help me & its what I need.
>
> A great display of Usenet bravado. Welcome to the groups, you'll fit in
just
> nice.
>
> Kai
>
>

Well, it IS a display of "something", all right....but, bravado?

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <5w3cb.21134$pU4.2671@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie
readandpost <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes
>
>
>"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
>news:bkqbrb$ao9$1@titan.btinternet.com...
>> The *US* are the posters who have tried AA and for whatever reason have
>> found it of little or no use. Sorry Rosie I was tired & pissed off you have
>> every right to post what you want.
>>
>>
>
>thanks, but no apology necessary.
>you are among many who didn't find what they needed in AA, i hope that
>the daily reflections, from different sources,
>will give your some comfort, anyway!


We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish. This
chimes with the 'take what you need' from AA approach - if you can find
a group you are comfortable with then use it

The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Robert McGregor]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com...
> In message <5w3cb.21134$pU4.2671@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie
> readandpost <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes
> >
> >
> >"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
> >news:bkqbrb$ao9$1@titan.btinternet.com...
> >> The *US* are the posters who have tried AA and for whatever reason have
> >> found it of little or no use. Sorry Rosie I was tired & pissed off you
have
> >> every right to post what you want.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >thanks, but no apology necessary.
> >you are among many who didn't find what they needed in AA, i hope that
> >the daily reflections, from different sources,
> >will give your some comfort, anyway!
>
>
> We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
> consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
> hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
> meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
> strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish. This
> chimes with the 'take what you need' from AA approach - if you can find
> a group you are comfortable with then use it
>
> The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
> went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
> the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an imperative
need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless aspects of alcoholism,
I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort zone. Maybe that's one reason
why I eventually recovered.

Bob

[JB]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message news:shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com...
> In message <5w3cb.21134$pU4.2671@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie
> readandpost <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes

<snip>

> We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
> consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
> hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
> meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
> strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish. This
> chimes with the 'take what you need' from AA approach - if you can find
> a group you are comfortable with then use it
>
> The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
> went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
> the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

When I attend meetings, quite a few people ignore me afterwards irrespective of whether I've spoken
or not :^) I can think of many reasons why they don't. Likewise, I ignore some people. For all I
know they be upset by me doing so :^) I wonder whether some of those who ignored your lady ignored
her only because they didn't know what to say to her at the time.

JB

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bks3cs$d18$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com...
> > > In message <5w3cb.21134$pU4.2671@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie
> > > readandpost <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
> <snip> > > The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told
of how she
> > > went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink
during
> > > the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
> > > --
> > > Jonathan Bratt
> >
> > Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
imperative
> > need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless aspects of
alcoholism,
> > I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort zone. Maybe that's one
reason
> > why I eventually recovered.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> Hi Bob,
>
> Six weeks ago, when I went to my first Step/Tradition meetings, a
gentleman introduced himself to me
> and proceeded to tell me a) that I was nothing special and b) that I could
not expect to have the
> meeting run to suit my needs before I had had a chance to say anything
other than "Hello". He was
> later introduced as the key speaker. During his speech he said that one
of the things that AA had
> made him aware of was his tendency to tell others how to behave. He
fondly believed that now this
> was something he no longer did. LOL.
>
> Afetr the meeting, a woman cornered me and tried to push her telephone
number upon me. When I
> refused to accept it she seemed hurt. Since that meeting, she has not
spoken to me except on
> occasions when I've intiated a conversation with her.
>
> FWIW, I would stop going to such meetings only if I felt they were no
longer benefiting me.
>
> JB
>
>

G'Day, JB

While I was still suffering the mental torment of a mind racing round in
circles that many experience in early recovery, and believing the BS that I
needed to go to meetings for the rest of my life, I made a rule that if I
was likely to feel vulnerable to drink, no matter how much I disliked the
"tone" of an accessable AA group, I would attend. I looked on that, at the
time, as living in the solution, rather than dwelling on whatever my
problem of the moment happened to be. At least taking all their inventories
got me out of myself;-)

Bob

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
>imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
>aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
>zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.

So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable - how
do you choose from these?
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bkru9r$69p$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
writes
>> The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
>> went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
>> the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>When I attend meetings, quite a few people ignore me afterwards
>irrespective of whether I've spoken
>or not :^) I can think of many reasons why they don't. Likewise, I
>ignore some people. For all I
>know they be upset by me doing so :^) I wonder whether some of those
>who ignored your lady ignored
>her only because they didn't know what to say to her at the time.

Well, I only have her version of course, but the impression she got -
from the general intake of breath when she admitted lapsing - was that
they were horrified she could do such a thing. Agreed this was in the US
- but surely that does not matter.

There is nothing foolproof or special about AA or any of the recovery
methods - the biggest single factor is the will of the individual to
recover. I do not see that translating into unquestioning acceptance of
anything. If it did - then one would surely go with the first thing that
comes along.

My point is that there are many routes on offer, and one must surely use
one's critical faculties to distinguish between then - you can't go with
them all after all!
--
Jonathan Bratt

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com...
> > In message <5w3cb.21134$pU4.2671@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie
> > readandpost <readandpostREMOVETHIS@yahoo.com> writes
> > >
> > >
> > >"Rogue" <nospam@goaway.com> wrote in message
<snip> > > The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
> > went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
> > the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
> > --
> > Jonathan Bratt
>
> Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an imperative
> need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless aspects of alcoholism,
> I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort zone. Maybe that's one reason
> why I eventually recovered.
>
> Bob
>
Hi Bob,

Six weeks ago, when I went to my first Step/Tradition meetings, a gentleman introduced himself to me
and proceeded to tell me a) that I was nothing special and b) that I could not expect to have the
meeting run to suit my needs before I had had a chance to say anything other than "Hello". He was
later introduced as the key speaker. During his speech he said that one of the things that AA had
made him aware of was his tendency to tell others how to behave. He fondly believed that now this
was something he no longer did. LOL.

Afetr the meeting, a woman cornered me and tried to push her telephone number upon me. When I
refused to accept it she seemed hurt. Since that meeting, she has not spoken to me except on
occasions when I've intiated a conversation with her.

FWIW, I would stop going to such meetings only if I felt they were no longer benefiting me.

JB

[Virtualoso]

In article <shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>> We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group ...

What's a non-drinking group?

[Robert McGregor]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:jdn3UMAXXZc$EwQa@aol.com...
> In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
> >Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
> >imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
> >aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
> >zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.
>
> So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
> There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable - how
> do you choose from these?
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

I chose the appropriate program for alcoholics of my type. Given your
proclamations, something probably way beyond your comprehension.

Bob

[Virtualoso]

In article <jdn3UMAXXZc$EwQa@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
> >Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
> >imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
> >aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
> >zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.
>
> So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
> There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable - how
> do you choose from these?

The same way one picks a drink: cheap, fast and strong.

[Virtualoso]

In article <kte2ImAwaZc$EwyD@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <bkru9r$69p$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> writes
> >> The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
> >> went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
> >> the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
> >> --
> >> Jonathan Bratt
> >
> >When I attend meetings, quite a few people ignore me afterwards
> >irrespective of whether I've spoken
> >or not :^) I can think of many reasons why they don't. Likewise, I
> >ignore some people. For all I
> >know they be upset by me doing so :^) I wonder whether some of those
> >who ignored your lady ignored
> >her only because they didn't know what to say to her at the time.
>
> Well, I only have her version of course, but the impression she got -
> from the general intake of breath when she admitted lapsing - was that
> they were horrified she could do such a thing. Agreed this was in the US
> - but surely that does not matter.
>
> There is nothing foolproof or special about AA or any of the recovery
> methods - the biggest single factor is the will of the individual to
> recover. I do not see that translating into unquestioning acceptance of
> anything. If it did - then one would surely go with the first thing that
> comes along.
>
> My point is that there are many routes on offer, and one must surely use
> one's critical faculties to distinguish between then - you can't go with
> them all after all!

Wielding one's critical faculties and will are especially key in
carefully and wisely selecting among options to one's ruinous drinking.
Wouldn't want to goof that up spuriously.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bks6e5$5ca4r$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:jdn3UMAXXZc$EwQa@aol.com...
>> In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
>> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>> >Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
>> >imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
>> >aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
>> >zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.
>>
>> So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
>> There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable - how
>> do you choose from these?
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>I chose the appropriate program for alcoholics of my type. Given your
>proclamations, something probably way beyond your comprehension.

I'm sure you can do condescension much better than that if u try.

I'm choosing the appropriate programme for alcoholics of my type I
suppose.

How does one decide what is appropriate?
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <240920030642030482%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <jdn3UMAXXZc$EwQa@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
>> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>> >Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
>> >imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
>> >aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
>> >zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.
>>
>> So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
>> There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable - how
>> do you choose from these?
>
>The same way one picks a drink: cheap, fast and strong.

When did cheap have anything to do with it? ;-)
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bks7vr$68m$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
writes
>I doubt whether her confession would have met with the same reaction at
>the AA meetings I attend. Everyone who has spoken at them has admitted
>to having relapsed at least once .

This is what I meant by finding a group that one is 'comfortable' with.
I don't believe that the hair shirt is necessary unless one has a martyr
complex.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <240920030625421625%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>> We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group ...
>
>What's a non-drinking group?

A group where people who have decided to give up drinking go for
education and support.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Moonraker]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:bks3cs$d18$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Six weeks ago, when I went to my first Step/Tradition meetings, a
gentleman introduced himself to me
> and proceeded to tell me a) that I was nothing special

Well..in the grand overall scheme of things, wasn't he right? ;>) I
mean, you ARE special to "some" of us, but 'prolly not to everybody in any
given group.

and b) that I could not expect to have the
> meeting run to suit my needs

Hell, even when I chair a meeting, it never goes the way "I" want it to.

before I had had a chance to say anything other than "Hello". He was
> later introduced as the key speaker. During his speech he said that one
of the things that AA had
> made him aware of was his tendency to tell others how to behave.

Being aware of things and actually changing them are two seperate issues,
eh?


He fondly believed that now this
> was something he no longer did. LOL.

Obviously, his perception wasn't your reality. We have a disclaimer at our
meetings....."Things heard here are the opinion of the speaker, and not
necessarily that of AA."

>
> Afetr the meeting, a woman cornered me and tried to push her telephone
number upon me. When I
> refused to accept it she seemed hurt.

I'm puzzled? Accepting a slip of paper with someone's phone number on it
doesn't imply that you'll ever call. Sometimes you have to humor the poor
soul who thinks "they" have something you want or need. (Sorta like Rosie
incessantly posting some thought for the day....)

Since that meeting, she has not spoken to me except on
> occasions when I've intiated a conversation with her.
>
> FWIW, I would stop going to such meetings only if I felt they were no
longer benefiting me.

FWIW....maybe your attendance at such meetings is benefiting somebody else.
What you say may keep "them" sober, eh?

>
> JB
>
>

[JB]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message news:kte2ImAwaZc$EwyD@aol.com...
> In message <bkru9r$69p$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> writes
> >> The 'comfortable' bit is important - one woman yesterday told of how she
> >> went to her AA group and admitted she had lapsed and had a drink during
> >> the seek - no-one would speak to her thereafter.
> >> --
> >> Jonathan Bratt
> >
> >When I attend meetings, quite a few people ignore me afterwards
> >irrespective of whether I've spoken
> >or not :^) I can think of many reasons why they don't. Likewise, I
> >ignore some people. For all I
> >know they be upset by me doing so :^) I wonder whether some of those
> >who ignored your lady ignored
> >her only because they didn't know what to say to her at the time.
>
> Well, I only have her version of course, but the impression she got -
> from the general intake of breath when she admitted lapsing - was that
> they were horrified she could do such a thing. Agreed this was in the US
> - but surely that does not matter.

I doubt whether her confession would have met with the same reaction at the AA meetings I attend.
Everyone who has spoken at them has admitted to having relapsed at least once .

<snip>

JB

[Virtualoso]

In article <ef+YEiEzhac$EwnF@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <240920030642030482%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >In article <jdn3UMAXXZc$EwQa@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
> >> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
> >> >Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
> >> >imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
> >> >aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
> >> >zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.
> >>
> >> So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
> >> There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable - how
> >> do you choose from these?
> >
> >The same way one picks a drink: cheap, fast and strong.
>
> When did cheap have anything to do with it? ;-)

Well, yeah. What *did* happen to that paycheck?

[Virtualoso]

In article <DPvfQeF2jac$EwlD@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <240920030625421625%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >In article <shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group ...
> >
> >What's a non-drinking group?
>
> A group where people who have decided to give up drinking go for
> education and support.

Hmmm. Is it that complicated to just not drink?

[Tex]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 21:45:00 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an imperative
>need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless aspects of alcoholism,
>I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort zone. Maybe that's one reason
>why I eventually recovered.
>
>Bob

Recalling a tad, when I hit AA I didn't know a comfort zone from
school zone. One thing for sure I was at the point in my alcoholism
where I didn't give a flying fuck and I also think that too is one of
the keys that helped bring about recovery.

Looking back again, for me, having recovered is when I became aware of
such things as comfort zones and other babbles of that nature. I've
seen people shunned so to speak for a variety of reasons in aa and as
to the lady that said she took a drink and then was avoided...my take
on that is it's usually more to do with fear on the part of those
doing the avoiding....like they might catch it or some such. In some
cases, especially my own, I have been avoided mainly because I was/am
the sort of person people avoid (drunk or sober)....recovery has
brought about this awareness and it strikes me as something I can
either do something about or not...not something others or the world
in general need to jump thru hoops to bring about me being Zoned.

__________________________________________________ _____________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Accounts Starting At $6.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
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[Virtualoso]

In article <a$8Zs+E5iac$EwFu@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <bks7vr$68m$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> writes
> >I doubt whether her confession would have met with the same reaction at
> >the AA meetings I attend. Everyone who has spoken at them has admitted
> >to having relapsed at least once .
>
> This is what I meant by finding a group that one is 'comfortable' with.
> I don't believe that the hair shirt is necessary unless one has a martyr
> complex.

Some drunks like getting solace for their drinking and screwing up.
As long as it's a two-way street, naturally.

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bks4io$5821l$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bks3cs$d18$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip

> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > Six weeks ago, when I went to my first Step/Tradition meetings, a
> gentleman introduced himself to me
> > and proceeded to tell me a) that I was nothing special and b) that I could
> not expect to have the
> > meeting run to suit my needs

<snip> > >
> > FWIW, I would stop going to such meetings only if I felt they were no
> longer benefiting me.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> G'Day, JB
>
> While I was still suffering the mental torment of a mind racing round in
> circles that many experience in early recovery, and believing the BS that I
> needed to go to meetings for the rest of my life, I made a rule that if I
> was likely to feel vulnerable to drink, no matter how much I disliked the
> "tone" of an accessable AA group, I would attend. I looked on that, at the
> time, as living in the solution, rather than dwelling on whatever my
> problem of the moment happened to be. At least taking all their inventories
> got me out of myself;-)
>
> Bob
>
I understand what you're saying and what you said about you "living in the solution" is true for
me. At this point in my recovery, I *need* what I get from going to AA meetings week after week.

JB

PS: Good to see you back. Am I right in thinking that you took your boat out on sea trials ? If
so, were you pleased with her performance ?

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <240920030743362109%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <DPvfQeF2jac$EwlD@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <240920030625421625%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >In article <shZ07$Cs0Vc$Ewzz@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
>> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>> We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group ...
>> >
>> >What's a non-drinking group?
>>
>> A group where people who have decided to give up drinking go for
>> education and support.
>
>Hmmm. Is it that complicated to just not drink?

If it were that simple, no-one would have a drink problem.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Robert McGregor]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:U$YasPEpgac$EwFL@aol.com...
> In message <bks6e5$5ca4r$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
> >
> >"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:jdn3UMAXXZc$EwQa@aol.com...
> >> In message <bks04v$4eqr3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert
McGregor
> >> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
> >> >Yeah, I suppose comfort is imperative for those who don't feel an
> >> >imperative need to recover. Needing to recover from the hopeless
> >> >aspects of alcoholism, I didn't give a flying fuck about my comfort
> >> >zone. Maybe that's one reason why I eventually recovered.
> >>
> >> So one should accept whatever is uncomfortable simply because it is so?
> >> There are many forms of recovery that one might find uncomfortable -
how
> >> do you choose from these?
> >> --
> >> Jonathan Bratt
> >
> >I chose the appropriate program for alcoholics of my type. Given your
> >proclamations, something probably way beyond your comprehension.
>
> I'm sure you can do condescension much better than that if u try.
>
> I'm choosing the appropriate programme for alcoholics of my type I
> suppose.
>
> How does one decide what is appropriate?
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

I discovered the program serendipitously, then decided with benefit of
hindsight..

Bob

[JB]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:kPhcb.22908$an.6258@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:bks3cs$d18$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
<snip> > He fondly believed that now this
> > was something he no longer did. LOL.
>
> Obviously, his perception wasn't your reality. We have a disclaimer at our
> meetings....."Things heard here are the opinion of the speaker, and not
> necessarily that of AA."

LOL I'm just thinking of what you said to me when I told you weeks ago why I stopped going to
church years ago. It was on account of how I thought that many people I met there failed to live
their daily lives according to the Christian principles that they claimed to believe in.
Thankfully, since our conversation, I have learnt that such prnciples - and also the AA way of
life - are only standards which people aspire to reach. Consequently, since rejoining AA, I have
been trying hard not to judge anyone I meet at its meetings..
>
> >
> > Afetr the meeting, a woman cornered me and tried to push her telephone
> number upon me. When I
> > refused to accept it she seemed hurt.
>
> I'm puzzled? Accepting a slip of paper with someone's phone number on it
> doesn't imply that you'll ever call. Sometimes you have to humor the poor
> soul who thinks "they" have something you want or need. (Sorta like Rosie
> incessantly posting some thought for the day....)

Whenever I think that I am being pressurised into doing something that I don't want to do, I nearly
always put up a resistance. I think that's because I don't like thinking that I'm not controlling
what happens to me.
> >
> > FWIW, I would stop going to such meetings only if I felt they were no
> longer benefiting me.
>
> FWIW....maybe your attendance at such meetings is benefiting somebody else.
> What you say may keep "them" sober, eh?
>
That's a nice thought :^) Thanks

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bksdi2$57l1u$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>I discovered the program serendipitously, then decided with benefit of
>hindsight..

And how would you advise someone faced with a plethora of choices?

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Robert McGregor]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e61I98Idmcc$Ewlh@aol.com...
> In message <bksdi2$57l1u$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
> >I discovered the program serendipitously, then decided with benefit of
> >hindsight..
>
> And how would you advise someone faced with a plethora of choices?
>
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

I wouldn't.

Bob

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bksi5h$5esbe$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:e61I98Idmcc$Ewlh@aol.com...
>> In message <bksdi2$57l1u$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de>, Robert McGregor
>> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> writes
>> >I discovered the program serendipitously, then decided with benefit of
>> >hindsight..
>>
>> And how would you advise someone faced with a plethora of choices?
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>I wouldn't.

Most helpful.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.

How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:05:52 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>Well, I only have her version of course, but the impression she got -
>from the general intake of breath when she admitted lapsing - was that
>they were horrified she could do such a thing.

Given an alcoholic drinking is natural for alcoholics to do, and
considering the warped perception of an unrecovered alcoholic, only a
person who hadn't taken Step 1 would perceive such a notion, real or
imagined.

Those doing the intake of breath could have been shocked, surprised,
or concerned. Given her condition, whether that was AT her or FOR her
may well not have been within her capacity to assess.

If anyone were to avoid me for relapsing, they themselves wouldn't
have even taken Step 1 so would be worth avoiding as they have little
or nothing to offer in terms of recovery, no matter how "sober" they
believe themselves to be.

I recall referring my then-recent relapse in an AA meeting. Others'
intake of breath, which was clearly audible, had nothing to do with me
at all.

--
Blue Moon

[Moonraker]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > I recall referring my
then-recent relapse in an AA meeting. Others'
> intake of breath, which was clearly audible, had nothing to do with me
> at all.

Or, a collective "better you than me" sort of sound?

> Blue Moon

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
>>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
>>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
>>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
>>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
>
>How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
>
No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
required to conform to.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:07:57 -0400, "Moonraker"
<moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>> I recall referring my
>> then-recent relapse in an AA meeting. Others'
>> intake of breath, which was clearly audible, had nothing to do with me
>> at all.
>
>Or, a collective "better you than me" sort of sound?

Yeah, could be.... "there but for the grace of <insert concept here>".
In which case it still had nothing to do with me :)

--
Blue Moon

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:55 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
>Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
>><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
>>>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
>>>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
>>>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
>>>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
>>
>>How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
>>
>No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
>for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
>required to conform to.

I pretty much guessed as much. So what you have in reality is people
offering opinions on a program they never even worked.

Those who have problem with the dogma they felt they were required to
conform to had a problem with the fellowship, not the program.
Curious that they apparently then endorse the meetings of that
fellowship, and blame the dogma issue on the program.

--
Blue Moon

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <84c39e92b8abf55095b449119de4a2a8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:55 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
>>Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
>>><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
>>>>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
>>>>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
>>>>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
>>>>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
>>>
>>>How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
>>>
>>No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
>>for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
>>required to conform to.
>
>I pretty much guessed as much. So what you have in reality is people
>offering opinions on a program they never even worked.

We were not discussing the programme - we discussing how useful people
had found AA.
>
>Those who have problem with the dogma they felt they were required to
>conform to had a problem with the fellowship, not the program.
>Curious that they apparently then endorse the meetings of that
>fellowship, and blame the dogma issue on the program.

The programme per se was not discussed.

Fact Is, the folks at this meeting were successfully tackling their
alcohol problems in a manner, and with a group they were happier with.
And it is working.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Virtualoso]

In article <FnLeazNnugc$Ewm+@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
> Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
> >>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
> >>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
> >>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
> >>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
> >
> >How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
> >
> No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
> for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
> required to conform to.

As opposed to what -- going to AA to invent some new personal dogma of
their own, to an eager audience? LOL

[Virtualoso]

In article <84c39e92b8abf55095b449119de4a2a8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:55 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
> >Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
> >><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
> >>>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
> >>>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
> >>>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
> >>>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
> >>
> >>How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
> >>
> >No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
> >for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
> >required to conform to.
>
> I pretty much guessed as much. So what you have in reality is people
> offering opinions on a program they never even worked.
>
> Those who have problem with the dogma they felt they were required to
> conform to had a problem with the fellowship, not the program.
> Curious that they apparently then endorse the meetings of that
> fellowship, and blame the dogma issue on the program.

Heck no, just hobble together your own fellowship composed of folks
that have one thing in common: their gripes with AA.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <240920031940532226%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <FnLeazNnugc$Ewm+@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
>> Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>> >On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
>> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
>> >>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
>> >>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
>> >>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
>> >>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
>> >
>> >How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
>> >
>> No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
>> for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
>> required to conform to.
>
>As opposed to what -- going to AA to invent some new personal dogma of
>their own, to an eager audience? LOL

There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <bkukm5$mdk$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
writes
>
>This is the second time that I have sought help from AA. The first time
>I did so I did not stick around long enough to learn that if I
>genuinely desired never to drink again, I needed to do more than just
>attend meetings. Nowadays, I go to as many meetings as I can every
>week, have a Sponsor who is wise, sympathetic and extremely helpful,
>and work every day on at least one Step in AA's Step programme. I do
>so in order to change those aspects of my character that I think put me
>at risk of drinking again. At this time, I believe that what I am
>doing is what I need to do in order to give myself the best chance of
>beating my alcoholism. Although I am a little uncomfortable with what
>happens at some of my AA meetings, I keep going back to them because I
>do not believe that such happens have any bearing on the work *I* need
>to do at home in order not to drink
>
>FWIW, I think that people who have found the answer to their drinking
>problem in AA are those who have appreciated the true value of its
>Twelve Step programme. Of course, I could be wrong :^)

I am delighted that it is working for you. I have _no doubt_ that the AA
programme works for many. I do not believe it was right for me, and I
sought an alternative. That alternative _does_ seem to be working for me
- although still in early changes, by focussing on active decision
making and taking responsibility for choices - and that I do actually
_have_ a choice.

The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)
--
Jonathan Bratt

[JB]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message news:xRDzX1REbhc$EwTf@aol.com...
> In message <84c39e92b8abf55095b449119de4a2a8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
> Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:55 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
> >>Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >>>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
> >>><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >>>
<snip>
> >>>How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
> >>>
> >>No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
> >>for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
> >>required to conform to.
> >
> >I pretty much guessed as much. So what you have in reality is people
> >offering opinions on a program they never even worked.
>
> We were not discussing the programme - we discussing how useful people
> had found AA.
> >
Hi Johnathan,

This is the second time that I have sought help from AA. The first time I did so I did not stick
around long enough to learn that if I genuinely desired never to drink again, I needed to do more
than just attend meetings. Nowadays, I go to as many meetings as I can every week, have a Sponsor
who is wise, sympathetic and extremely helpful, and work every day on at least one Step in AA's Step
programme. I do so in order to change those aspects of my character that I think put me at risk of
drinking
again. At this time, I believe that what I am doing is what I need to do in order to give myself
the best chance of beating my alcoholism. Although I am a little uncomfortable with what happens at
some of my AA meetings, I keep going back to them because I do not believe that such happens have
any bearing on the work *I* need to do at home in order not to drink

FWIW, I think that people who have found the answer to their drinking problem in AA are those who
have appreciated the true value of its Twelve Step programme. Of course, I could be wrong :^)

Best regards

JB

[Virtualoso]

In article <LZh91lSMVpc$EwVk@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <240920031940532226%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >In article <FnLeazNnugc$Ewm+@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
> >> Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
> >> >On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
> >> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
> >> >>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
> >> >>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
> >> >>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
> >> >>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
> >> >
> >> >How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
> >> >
> >> No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
> >> for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
> >> required to conform to.
> >
> >As opposed to what -- going to AA to invent some new personal dogma of
> >their own, to an eager audience? LOL
>
> There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.

What's all the learning going on?

[Virtualoso]

In article <7unBY4eXitc$Ewwh@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <bkukm5$mdk$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> writes
> >
> >This is the second time that I have sought help from AA. The first time
> >I did so I did not stick around long enough to learn that if I
> >genuinely desired never to drink again, I needed to do more than just
> >attend meetings. Nowadays, I go to as many meetings as I can every
> >week, have a Sponsor who is wise, sympathetic and extremely helpful,
> >and work every day on at least one Step in AA's Step programme. I do
> >so in order to change those aspects of my character that I think put me
> >at risk of drinking again. At this time, I believe that what I am
> >doing is what I need to do in order to give myself the best chance of
> >beating my alcoholism. Although I am a little uncomfortable with what
> >happens at some of my AA meetings, I keep going back to them because I
> >do not believe that such happens have any bearing on the work *I* need
> >to do at home in order not to drink
> >
> >FWIW, I think that people who have found the answer to their drinking
> >problem in AA are those who have appreciated the true value of its
> >Twelve Step programme. Of course, I could be wrong :^)
>
> I am delighted that it is working for you. I have _no doubt_ that the AA
> programme works for many. I do not believe it was right for me, and I
> sought an alternative. That alternative _does_ seem to be working for me
> - although still in early changes, by focussing on active decision
> making and taking responsibility for choices - and that I do actually
> _have_ a choice.
>
> The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
> not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)

What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?

[Blue Moon]

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:12:20 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

>In message <84c39e92b8abf55095b449119de4a2a8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
>Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 22:24:55 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
>><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <baf138fefe8db2621fb8559f7b9179e8@news.teranews.com >, Blue
>>>Moon <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> writes
>>>>On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 10:00:28 +0100, Jonathan Bratt
>>>><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>We were discussing AA in my non-drinking group yesterday: the general
>>>>>consensus was - and there were people in the room who had tried AA and
>>>>>hated it, tried AA and loved it, and those in the middle - that the
>>>>>meetings could be highly useful, especially at times of weakness of
>>>>>strain, but that the programme was a different kettle of fish.
>>>>
>>>>How many of those had ACTUALLY worked the program?
>>>>
>>>No idea - we only discussed it for a few minutes. Some had been involved
>>>for some years, but were unhappy with the dogma they felt they were
>>>required to conform to.
>>
>>I pretty much guessed as much. So what you have in reality is people
>>offering opinions on a program they never even worked.
>
>We were not discussing the programme - we discussing how useful people
>had found AA.

"the general consensus was ... that the meetings could be highly
useful ... but that the programme was a different kettle of fish."

That's a direct opinion on the program, even if it's not discussed in
detail. Further analysis revealed that those who proferred such an
opinion had probably never even worked the program, and were ACTUALLY
still only offering opinion on the meetings.

--
Blue Moon

[Moonraker]

"Virtualoso" <virtualoso@dot.com> wrote in message
news:250920030710559456%virtualoso@dot.com...
> In article <7unBY4eXitc$Ewwh@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > In message <bkukm5$mdk$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
> > writes
> > >
> > >This is the second time that I have sought help from AA. The first time
> > >I did so I did not stick around long enough to learn that if I
> > >genuinely desired never to drink again, I needed to do more than just
> > >attend meetings. Nowadays, I go to as many meetings as I can every
> > >week, have a Sponsor who is wise, sympathetic and extremely helpful,
> > >and work every day on at least one Step in AA's Step programme. I do
> > >so in order to change those aspects of my character that I think put me
> > >at risk of drinking again. At this time, I believe that what I am
> > >doing is what I need to do in order to give myself the best chance of
> > >beating my alcoholism. Although I am a little uncomfortable with what
> > >happens at some of my AA meetings, I keep going back to them because I
> > >do not believe that such happens have any bearing on the work *I* need
> > >to do at home in order not to drink
> > >
> > >FWIW, I think that people who have found the answer to their drinking
> > >problem in AA are those who have appreciated the true value of its
> > >Twelve Step programme. Of course, I could be wrong :^)
> >
> > I am delighted that it is working for you. I have _no doubt_ that the AA
> > programme works for many. I do not believe it was right for me, and I
> > sought an alternative. That alternative _does_ seem to be working for me
> > - although still in early changes, by focussing on active decision
> > making and taking responsibility for choices - and that I do actually
> > _have_ a choice.
> >
> > The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
> > not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)
>
> What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?

One word. "God".

Of course, what works for him, doesn't.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <250920030710559456%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
>> not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)
>
>What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?

Essentially that the responsibility for my drinking and managing my life
rests solely with myself, and giving me the tools to accomplish that.

It appeals to me far more on an intellectual level, and starts to enable
the changes on day 1.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <W8Dcb.21524$iO.4903@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, Moonraker
<moonrak9@bellsouth.net> writes
>Of course, what works for him, doesn't.

Care to decode this somewhat cryptic comment?
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <250920030707156216%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.
>
>What's all the learning going on?

It is not a dogma - it is an exploration of the way we feel and think -
recognising that this varies from individual to individual and
encourages us to find ways of changing/dealing with these that works for
us each individually.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Virtualoso]

In article <W8Dcb.21524$iO.4903@bignews5.bellsouth.net>, Moonraker
<moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> "Virtualoso" <virtualoso@dot.com> wrote in message
> >
> > What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?
>
> One word. "God".

Whatever you mean by that.

[Virtualoso]

In article <F8Lucfgn1wc$EwHt@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <250920030710559456%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >> The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
> >> not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)
> >
> >What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?
>
> Essentially that the responsibility for my drinking and managing my life
> rests solely with myself, and giving me the tools to accomplish that.

"Tools"?

> It appeals to me far more on an intellectual level, and starts to enable
> the changes on day 1.

Was there some sort of problem with all that before day 1?

[Virtualoso]

In article <c8UosMhb4wc$EwkZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <250920030707156216%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >> There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.
> >
> >What's all the learning going on?
>
> It is not a dogma - it is an exploration of the way we feel and think -
> recognising that this varies from individual to individual and
> encourages us to find ways of changing/dealing with these that works for
> us each individually.

So the dogmatic premise is that "ways" of thinking/feeling are
"explored" in some fashion, and that there are "ways" of
"changing/dealing" with all that, somehow, uniquely individually
personally -- which somehow at some time you may find out and it might
make some certain differences.

Okay.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <250920031654478646%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <F8Lucfgn1wc$EwHt@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <250920030710559456%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >> The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
>> >> not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)
>> >
>> >What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?
>>
>> Essentially that the responsibility for my drinking and managing my life
>> rests solely with myself, and giving me the tools to accomplish that.
>
>"Tools"?
>

Options as regards the way I approach, think about and deal with
situations that previously would have acted as a trigger to drink.


>> It appeals to me far more on an intellectual level, and starts to enable
>> the changes on day 1.
>
>Was there some sort of problem with all that before day 1?

Clearly - or I would not have had a drinking problem

Are you genuinely having a difficulty understanding this? Or is this
merely an exercise?

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <250920031657026703%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <c8UosMhb4wc$EwkZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <250920030707156216%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >> There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.
>> >
>> >What's all the learning going on?
>>
>> It is not a dogma - it is an exploration of the way we feel and think -
>> recognising that this varies from individual to individual and
>> encourages us to find ways of changing/dealing with these that works for
>> us each individually.
>
>So the dogmatic premise is that "ways" of thinking/feeling are
>"explored" in some fashion,

How is that dogmatic?

>and that there are "ways" of
>"changing/dealing" with all that, somehow, uniquely individually
>personally -- which somehow at some time you may find out and it might
>make some certain differences.
>
>Okay.

Thank **** for that - you've finally got there.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Virtualoso]

In article <3quCJOAyD+c$Ewhs@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <250920031654478646%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >In article <F8Lucfgn1wc$EwHt@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <250920030710559456%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> >> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >> >> The world is big enough for more than one way to sobriety. I simply don
> >> >> not believe in the 'one, true path approach'. :-)
> >> >
> >> >What's essentially different between AA and what works for you?
> >>
> >> Essentially that the responsibility for my drinking and managing my life
> >> rests solely with myself, and giving me the tools to accomplish that.
> >
> >"Tools"?
> >
>
> Options as regards the way I approach, think about and deal with
> situations that previously would have acted as a trigger to drink.
>
>
> >> It appeals to me far more on an intellectual level, and starts to enable
> >> the changes on day 1.
> >
> >Was there some sort of problem with all that before day 1?
>
> Clearly - or I would not have had a drinking problem
>
> Are you genuinely having a difficulty understanding this? Or is this
> merely an exercise?

I'm having some trouble understanding what you might mean, more
concretely. I'm unsure what "tools" or "options" or all that might be
about, since clearly a drinking problem is largely solved by not
drinking too much, too often. I've never met anyone that didn't already
know that pretty plainly.

From the descriptive language you're using I'm getting the impression
that you or the group or something sounds like a version of "cognitive
behavioral" method. Yes?

[Virtualoso]

In article <667BdnAnE+c$EwBu@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <250920031657026703%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >In article <c8UosMhb4wc$EwkZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <250920030707156216%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> >> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >> >> There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.
> >> >
> >> >What's all the learning going on?
> >>
> >> It is not a dogma - it is an exploration of the way we feel and think -
> >> recognising that this varies from individual to individual and
> >> encourages us to find ways of changing/dealing with these that works for
> >> us each individually.
> >
> >So the dogmatic premise is that "ways" of thinking/feeling are
> >"explored" in some fashion,
>
> How is that dogmatic?

How isn't it?

> >and that there are "ways" of
> >"changing/dealing" with all that, somehow, uniquely individually
> >personally -- which somehow at some time you may find out and it might
> >make some certain differences.
> >
> >Okay.
>
> Thank **** for that - you've finally got there.

Perhaps, in my own way.
'-)

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <260920030638444847%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>
>I'm having some trouble understanding what you might mean, more
>concretely. I'm unsure what "tools" or "options" or all that might be
>about, since clearly a drinking problem is largely solved by not
>drinking too much, too often. I've never met anyone that didn't already
>know that pretty plainly.
>
>From the descriptive language you're using I'm getting the impression
>that you or the group or something sounds like a version of "cognitive
>behavioral" method. Yes?

Spot on. I - and others - have learned to deal with certain situations,
e.g. stress in a certain way. What we are now learning is how to deal
with such situations without alcohol.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <260920030640562748%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <667BdnAnE+c$EwBu@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <250920031657026703%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >In article <c8UosMhb4wc$EwkZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
>> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In message <250920030707156216%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> >> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >> >> There is no appetite for dogma of any kind.
>> >> >
>> >> >What's all the learning going on?
>> >>
>> >> It is not a dogma - it is an exploration of the way we feel and think -
>> >> recognising that this varies from individual to individual and
>> >> encourages us to find ways of changing/dealing with these that works for
>> >> us each individually.
>> >
>> >So the dogmatic premise is that "ways" of thinking/feeling are
>> >"explored" in some fashion,
>>
>> How is that dogmatic?
>
>How isn't it?

How is it?

>
>> >and that there are "ways" of
>> >"changing/dealing" with all that, somehow, uniquely individually
>> >personally -- which somehow at some time you may find out and it might
>> >make some certain differences.
>> >
>> >Okay.
>>
>> Thank **** for that - you've finally got there.
>
>Perhaps, in my own way.
>'-)

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Virtualoso]

In article <DCgPjNIP3Ed$EwNZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <260920030638444847%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >
> >I'm having some trouble understanding what you might mean, more
> >concretely. I'm unsure what "tools" or "options" or all that might be
> >about, since clearly a drinking problem is largely solved by not
> >drinking too much, too often. I've never met anyone that didn't already
> >know that pretty plainly.
> >
> >From the descriptive language you're using I'm getting the impression
> >that you or the group or something sounds like a version of "cognitive
> >behavioral" method. Yes?
>
> Spot on. I - and others - have learned to deal with certain situations,
> e.g. stress in a certain way. What we are now learning is how to deal
> with such situations without alcohol.

Okay. Many folks adopt the dogma of various cognitive behavioral deals.
May it serve you well.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <260920031403346254%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <DCgPjNIP3Ed$EwNZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <260920030638444847%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >
>> >I'm having some trouble understanding what you might mean, more
>> >concretely. I'm unsure what "tools" or "options" or all that might be
>> >about, since clearly a drinking problem is largely solved by not
>> >drinking too much, too often. I've never met anyone that didn't already
>> >know that pretty plainly.
>> >
>> >From the descriptive language you're using I'm getting the impression
>> >that you or the group or something sounds like a version of "cognitive
>> >behavioral" method. Yes?
>>
>> Spot on. I - and others - have learned to deal with certain situations,
>> e.g. stress in a certain way. What we are now learning is how to deal
>> with such situations without alcohol.
>
>Okay. Many folks adopt the dogma of various cognitive behavioral deals.
>May it serve you well.

The joy it is not a dogma - how can choice be dogma?

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Virtualoso]

In article <1bBS1pQKILd$Ewbg@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
<jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:

> In message <260920031403346254%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >In article <DCgPjNIP3Ed$EwNZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >> In message <260920030638444847%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
> >> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
> >> >
> >> >I'm having some trouble understanding what you might mean, more
> >> >concretely. I'm unsure what "tools" or "options" or all that might be
> >> >about, since clearly a drinking problem is largely solved by not
> >> >drinking too much, too often. I've never met anyone that didn't already
> >> >know that pretty plainly.
> >> >
> >> >From the descriptive language you're using I'm getting the impression
> >> >that you or the group or something sounds like a version of "cognitive
> >> >behavioral" method. Yes?
> >>
> >> Spot on. I - and others - have learned to deal with certain situations,
> >> e.g. stress in a certain way. What we are now learning is how to deal
> >> with such situations without alcohol.
> >
> >Okay. Many folks adopt the dogma of various cognitive behavioral deals.
> >May it serve you well.
>
> The joy it is not a dogma - how can choice be dogma?

Everything's a choice. Even a choice of dogma.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <260920031740313392%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>In article <1bBS1pQKILd$Ewbg@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <260920031403346254%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >In article <DCgPjNIP3Ed$EwNZ@aol.com>, Jonathan Bratt
>> ><jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> In message <260920030638444847%virtualoso@dot.com>, Virtualoso
>> >> <virtualoso@dot.com> writes
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm having some trouble understanding what you might mean, more
>> >> >concretely. I'm unsure what "tools" or "options" or all that might be
>> >> >about, since clearly a drinking problem is largely solved by not
>> >> >drinking too much, too often. I've never met anyone that didn't already
>> >> >know that pretty plainly.
>> >> >
>> >> >From the descriptive language you're using I'm getting the impression
>> >> >that you or the group or something sounds like a version of "cognitive
>> >> >behavioral" method. Yes?
>> >>
>> >> Spot on. I - and others - have learned to deal with certain situations,
>> >> e.g. stress in a certain way. What we are now learning is how to deal
>> >> with such situations without alcohol.
>> >
>> >Okay. Many folks adopt the dogma of various cognitive behavioral deals.
>> >May it serve you well.
>>
>> The joy it is not a dogma - how can choice be dogma?
>
>Everything's a choice. Even a choice of dogma.

Must everything be dogma then?

--
Jonathan Bratt