Given proper advice, George Best could have drunk safely again

[Murdoch]

Given proper advice, George Best
could have drunk safely again


ONE of the tragedies of George Best's life was that, if he had been
made aware of the full range of alternative options, he could have
drunk alcohol in a safe, normal and responsible manner.

That is the claim of Scottish couple and former alcoholics Lilian and
Murdoch MacDonald, whose book on their recovery from alcoholism
"Phoenix in a Bottle" was published earlier this year.

Lilian and Murdoch say that, in common with many alcoholics, George
Best would have appeared to have been given the stark choice between on
the one hand carrying on drinking alcoholically, and on the other
embracing lifelong abstinence from alcohol.

But according to Lilian and Murdoch, there is a third choice.

They maintain that alcoholism is not an incurable disease as Alcoholics
Anonymous would have us believe.

In fact it is a self-harming behaviour problem rooted in childhood. And
if alcoholics are willing to identify and address their issues from the
past, there is no reason why most of them should not be able to take a
drink safely and responsibly again, if and when they so wish.

In 1994 as a result of their alcoholism, Lilian and Murdoch MacDonald
were down and out, sleeping rough in the streets and parks of
Cambridge, the English university town where, a quarter of a century
before, Murdoch had studied for an honours degree.

Refusing to accept what they consider to be the outmoded myths and
dogma of Alcoholics Anonymous, Lilian and Murdoch set about searching
for the underlying causes of their self-harming behaviour problem,
which they discovered lay in childhood.

Although Lilian and Murdoch's upbringing caused their problems, they
themselves take full responsibility for their drinking, most
importantly because taking responsibility for one's own actions is the
starting point on the road to recovery.

As a result of their endeavours, the couple are today back home in
Ayrshire, Scotland, leading normal lives again, with their problems of
alcoholism and Lilian's associated eating disorder well and truly
behind them.

Controversially, they are also now able to drink alcohol responsibly
again, if and when they so wish.

Their book "Phoenix in a Bottle" is the story of their journey. It is
published by Melrose Books ISBN 1905226144 price £16.99.

Lilian and Murdoch's website:

www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com

Web links:

http://www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com/newpage32.html

http://www.i-newswire.com/pr51333.html

[Dan McGown]

Roses are red and violets are blue.
Murdoch's a charlatan and Lilian, too!

"Murdoch" <alcocure@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1133552383.312628.150530@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
Given proper advice, George Best
could have drunk safely again


ONE of the tragedies of George Best's life was that, if he had been
made aware of the full range of alternative options, he could have
drunk alcohol in a safe, normal and responsible manner.

That is the claim of Scottish couple and former alcoholics Lilian and
Murdoch MacDonald, whose book on their recovery from alcoholism
"Phoenix in a Bottle" was published earlier this year.

Lilian and Murdoch say that, in common with many alcoholics, George
Best would have appeared to have been given the stark choice between on
the one hand carrying on drinking alcoholically, and on the other
embracing lifelong abstinence from alcohol.

But according to Lilian and Murdoch, there is a third choice.

They maintain that alcoholism is not an incurable disease as Alcoholics
Anonymous would have us believe.

In fact it is a self-harming behaviour problem rooted in childhood. And
if alcoholics are willing to identify and address their issues from the
past, there is no reason why most of them should not be able to take a
drink safely and responsibly again, if and when they so wish.

In 1994 as a result of their alcoholism, Lilian and Murdoch MacDonald
were down and out, sleeping rough in the streets and parks of
Cambridge, the English university town where, a quarter of a century
before, Murdoch had studied for an honours degree.

Refusing to accept what they consider to be the outmoded myths and
dogma of Alcoholics Anonymous, Lilian and Murdoch set about searching
for the underlying causes of their self-harming behaviour problem,
which they discovered lay in childhood.

Although Lilian and Murdoch's upbringing caused their problems, they
themselves take full responsibility for their drinking, most
importantly because taking responsibility for one's own actions is the
starting point on the road to recovery.

As a result of their endeavours, the couple are today back home in
Ayrshire, Scotland, leading normal lives again, with their problems of
alcoholism and Lilian's associated eating disorder well and truly
behind them.

Controversially, they are also now able to drink alcohol responsibly
again, if and when they so wish.

Their book "Phoenix in a Bottle" is the story of their journey. It is
published by Melrose Books ISBN 1905226144 price £16.99.

Lilian and Murdoch's website:

www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com

Web links:

http://www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com/newpage32.html

http://www.i-newswire.com/pr51333.html

[Dan McGown]

Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to claim
that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a liver
transplant.
What a couple of despicable gyps.

"Murdoch" <alcocure@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1133552383.312628.150530@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
Given proper advice, George Best
could have drunk safely again


ONE of the tragedies of George Best's life was that, if he had been
made aware of the full range of alternative options, he could have
drunk alcohol in a safe, normal and responsible manner.

That is the claim of Scottish couple and former alcoholics Lilian and
Murdoch MacDonald, whose book on their recovery from alcoholism
"Phoenix in a Bottle" was published earlier this year.

Lilian and Murdoch say that, in common with many alcoholics, George
Best would have appeared to have been given the stark choice between on
the one hand carrying on drinking alcoholically, and on the other
embracing lifelong abstinence from alcohol.

But according to Lilian and Murdoch, there is a third choice.

They maintain that alcoholism is not an incurable disease as Alcoholics
Anonymous would have us believe.

In fact it is a self-harming behaviour problem rooted in childhood. And
if alcoholics are willing to identify and address their issues from the
past, there is no reason why most of them should not be able to take a
drink safely and responsibly again, if and when they so wish.

In 1994 as a result of their alcoholism, Lilian and Murdoch MacDonald
were down and out, sleeping rough in the streets and parks of
Cambridge, the English university town where, a quarter of a century
before, Murdoch had studied for an honours degree.

Refusing to accept what they consider to be the outmoded myths and
dogma of Alcoholics Anonymous, Lilian and Murdoch set about searching
for the underlying causes of their self-harming behaviour problem,
which they discovered lay in childhood.

Although Lilian and Murdoch's upbringing caused their problems, they
themselves take full responsibility for their drinking, most
importantly because taking responsibility for one's own actions is the
starting point on the road to recovery.

As a result of their endeavours, the couple are today back home in
Ayrshire, Scotland, leading normal lives again, with their problems of
alcoholism and Lilian's associated eating disorder well and truly
behind them.

Controversially, they are also now able to drink alcohol responsibly
again, if and when they so wish.

Their book "Phoenix in a Bottle" is the story of their journey. It is
published by Melrose Books ISBN 1905226144 price £16.99.

Lilian and Murdoch's website:

www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com

Web links:

http://www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com/newpage32.html

http://www.i-newswire.com/pr51333.html

[Robert McGregor]

"Murdoch" <alcocure@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1133552383.312628.150530@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
>Given proper advice, George Best
>could have drunk safely again


Given the theory of a sucker being born every minute, and the
probability of countless erroneously diagnosed alcoholics, surely
your spamming should have netted enough suckers to parade at least a
dozen or so living paragons of your theory exemplified in practice.

Jeez, Murdoch, is it your sex life, or your book, that's so bad
you're fucking with a corpse to get a testimonial?

Bob

[Ken]

Dan McGown wrote:

>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to claim
>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a liver
>transplant.
>What a couple of despicable gyps.
>
>
Dan,

Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

>"Murdoch" <alcocure@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:1133552383.312628.150530@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
>Given proper advice, George Best
>could have drunk safely again
>
>
>ONE of the tragedies of George Best's life was that, if he had been
>made aware of the full range of alternative options, he could have
>drunk alcohol in a safe, normal and responsible manner.
>
>That is the claim of Scottish couple and former alcoholics Lilian and
>Murdoch MacDonald, whose book on their recovery from alcoholism
>"Phoenix in a Bottle" was published earlier this year.
>
>Lilian and Murdoch say that, in common with many alcoholics, George
>Best would have appeared to have been given the stark choice between on
>the one hand carrying on drinking alcoholically, and on the other
>embracing lifelong abstinence from alcohol.
>
>But according to Lilian and Murdoch, there is a third choice.
>
>They maintain that alcoholism is not an incurable disease as Alcoholics
>Anonymous would have us believe.
>
>In fact it is a self-harming behaviour problem rooted in childhood. And
>if alcoholics are willing to identify and address their issues from the
>past, there is no reason why most of them should not be able to take a
>drink safely and responsibly again, if and when they so wish.
>
>In 1994 as a result of their alcoholism, Lilian and Murdoch MacDonald
>were down and out, sleeping rough in the streets and parks of
>Cambridge, the English university town where, a quarter of a century
>before, Murdoch had studied for an honours degree.
>
>Refusing to accept what they consider to be the outmoded myths and
>dogma of Alcoholics Anonymous, Lilian and Murdoch set about searching
>for the underlying causes of their self-harming behaviour problem,
>which they discovered lay in childhood.
>
>Although Lilian and Murdoch's upbringing caused their problems, they
>themselves take full responsibility for their drinking, most
>importantly because taking responsibility for one's own actions is the
>starting point on the road to recovery.
>
>As a result of their endeavours, the couple are today back home in
>Ayrshire, Scotland, leading normal lives again, with their problems of
>alcoholism and Lilian's associated eating disorder well and truly
>behind them.
>
>Controversially, they are also now able to drink alcohol responsibly
>again, if and when they so wish.
>
>Their book "Phoenix in a Bottle" is the story of their journey. It is
>published by Melrose Books ISBN 1905226144 price £16.99.
>
>Lilian and Murdoch's website:
>
>www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com
>
>Web links:
>
>http://www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com/newpage32.html
>
>http://www.i-newswire.com/pr51333.html
>
>
>
>

[stuart]

Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
> Dan McGown wrote:
>
> >Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
> >moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
> >-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to claim
> >that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
liver
> >transplant.
> >What a couple of despicable gyps.
> >
> >
> Dan,
>
> Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
> evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
> Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>
> Ken Ragge

Fuck Off Ken. You think the guy was some blue-collar provincial recluse like
yourself? George Best was no doubt aware of treatment options I'm sure even
you haven't even heard of. And what do you personally know what he did for
treatment?

[stuart]

Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
> Dan McGown wrote:
>
> >Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
> >moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
> >-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to claim
> >that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
liver
> >transplant.
> >What a couple of despicable gyps.
> >
> >
> Dan,
>
> Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
> evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
> Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>
> Ken Ragge

PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on the
George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your email. I
wouldn't do you the favour...

You ignorant bastard.

[Ken]

stuart wrote:

>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
>
>
>>Dan McGown wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
>>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
>>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to claim
>>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
>>>
>>>
>liver
>
>
>>>transplant.
>>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
>>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
>>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>
>>
>
>Fuck Off Ken. You think the guy was some blue-collar provincial recluse like
>yourself? George Best was no doubt aware of treatment options I'm sure even
>you haven't even heard of. And what do you personally know what he did for
>treatment?
>
>
Stuart,

Better be careful. Remember H.A.L.T. Don't get too Hungry, Angry,
Lonely, or Tired. Having normal human emotion will make you drink,
don't you know from your "spiritual program"?

I have a real good guess. It is my understanding that he went for
treatment when he played on the San Jose, California team. Ninety-five
percent of treatment in the U.S. is 12-Step and the percentage in
California is probably higher.

Are you suggesting that his treatment must have been Church of
Scientology? Ha! Ha!

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

[Ken]

stuart wrote:

>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
>
>
>>Dan McGown wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
>>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
>>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to claim
>>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
>>>
>>>
>liver
>
>
>>>transplant.
>>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Dan,
>>
>>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
>>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
>>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>
>>
>
>PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on the
>George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
>soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
>apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your email. I
>wouldn't do you the favour...
>
>You ignorant bastard.
>
>
Stuart,

"Ignorant and insulting"? How is that? Do you think most British
people even know anything about the 12-Step groups or would be
supportive of a dirivative of American Fundamentalist Christianity as
treatment if they knew anything about them?

Why do I owe the fans an apology for believing it very likely the
12-Steps killed him as it has so many others?

Don't you think you owe them an apology for trying to use his memorial
website to proseletyse your 12-Steps Powerless nonsense?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

[dan mcgown]

Ken, really, you are such an absolute dick.

"Ken" <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:UZWdnc4QZ5g6eA7eRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
> stuart wrote:
>
>>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
>>
>>>Dan McGown wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
>>>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
>>>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to
>>>>claim
>>>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
>>>>
>>liver
>>
>>>>transplant.
>>>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Dan,
>>>
>>>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
>>>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
>>>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>>>
>>>Ken Ragge
>>>
>>
>>PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on
>>the
>>George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
>>soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
>>apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your email. I
>>wouldn't do you the favour...
>>
>>You ignorant bastard.
>>
> Stuart,
>
> "Ignorant and insulting"? How is that? Do you think most British people
> even know anything about the 12-Step groups or would be supportive of a
> dirivative of American Fundamentalist Christianity as treatment if they
> knew anything about them?
>
> Why do I owe the fans an apology for believing it very likely the 12-Steps
> killed him as it has so many others?
> Don't you think you owe them an apology for trying to use his memorial
> website to proseletyse your 12-Steps Powerless nonsense?
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com

[stuart]

Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:Nqmdne7V8MQReQ7enZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> stuart wrote:
>
> >Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> >news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
> >
> >
> >>Dan McGown wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
> >>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
> >>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to
claim
> >>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
> >>>
> >>>
> >liver
> >
> >
> >>>transplant.
> >>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Dan,
> >>
> >>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
> >>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
> >>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
> >>
> >>Ken Ragge
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Fuck Off Ken. You think the guy was some blue-collar provincial recluse
like
> >yourself? George Best was no doubt aware of treatment options I'm sure
even
> >you haven't even heard of. And what do you personally know what he did
for
> >treatment?
> >
> >
> Stuart,
>
> Better be careful. Remember H.A.L.T. Don't get too Hungry, Angry,
> Lonely, or Tired. Having normal human emotion will make you drink,
> don't you know from your "spiritual program"?
>
> I have a real good guess. It is my understanding that he went for
> treatment when he played on the San Jose, California team. Ninety-five
> percent of treatment in the U.S. is 12-Step and the percentage in
> California is probably higher.

And that's it i doubt it Ken. PS I am not "hungry" "angry". "Lonely" or
"Tired".
Insulted is what I am.

>
> Are you suggesting that his treatment must have been Church of
> Scientology? Ha! Ha!
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com
>

[stuart]

Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:UZWdnc4QZ5g6eA7eRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
> stuart wrote:
>
> >Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> >news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
> >
> >
> >>Dan McGown wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
> >>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
> >>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to
claim
> >>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
> >>>
> >>>
> >liver
> >
> >
> >>>transplant.
> >>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Dan,
> >>
> >>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
> >>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
> >>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
> >>
> >>Ken Ragge
> >>
> >>
> >
> >PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on
the
> >George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
> >soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
> >apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your email.
I
> >wouldn't do you the favour...
> >
> >You ignorant bastard.
> >
> >
> Stuart,
>
> "Ignorant and insulting"? How is that? Do you think most British
> people even know anything about the 12-Step groups or would be
> supportive of a dirivative of American Fundamentalist Christianity as
> treatment if they knew anything about them?
>
> Why do I owe the fans an apology for believing it very likely the
> 12-Steps killed him as it has so many others?
>
> Don't you think you owe them an apology for trying to use his memorial
> website to proseletyse your 12-Steps Powerless nonsense?
>
> Ken Ragge

My views are not posted there, Ken, not even my name, just your quote. YOU
are dissecting the life of a demi-god in the soccer culture, not that you wo
uld have any identification with it. Manchester United just happens to be
the wealthiest sports club in the world. It has more assets than the entire
NBA, Ken. Careful who you are insulting. Sorry about your email if it gets
clogged.

> http://www.morerevealed.com

[Ken]

stuart wrote:

>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>news:UZWdnc4QZ5g6eA7eRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
>
>
>>stuart wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>>news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dan McGown wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
>>>>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
>>>>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to
>>>>>
>>>>>
>claim
>
>
>>>>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>liver
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>transplant.
>>>>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Dan,
>>>>
>>>>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have any
>>>>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
>>>>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>>>>
>>>>Ken Ragge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
>>>soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
>>>apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your email.
>>>
>>>
>I
>
>
>>>wouldn't do you the favour...
>>>
>>>You ignorant bastard.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Stuart,
>>
>>"Ignorant and insulting"? How is that? Do you think most British
>>people even know anything about the 12-Step groups or would be
>>supportive of a dirivative of American Fundamentalist Christianity as
>>treatment if they knew anything about them?
>>
>>Why do I owe the fans an apology for believing it very likely the
>>12-Steps killed him as it has so many others?
>>
>>Don't you think you owe them an apology for trying to use his memorial
>>website to proseletyse your 12-Steps Powerless nonsense?
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>
>>
>
>My views are not posted there, Ken, not even my name, just your quote. YOU
>are dissecting the life of a demi-god in the soccer culture, not that you wo
>uld have any identification with it. Manchester United just happens to be
>the wealthiest sports club in the world. It has more assets than the entire
>NBA, Ken. Careful who you are insulting. Sorry about your email if it gets
>clogged.
>
>
Stuart,

But I wasn't insulting him. One could most certainly, and accurately,
argue that I was insulting 12 Steppers who believe they have the one and
only way to resolve a drinking problem and they have the one and only
path to God to do that, but insulting him, not at all. Saying someone
has been lied to and misled into accepting bogus "treatment" is not
insulting him.

The fact that you didn't have the guts to sign your own name just shows
that you simply wanted to punish me for criticising "the program" and
the Steps. Isn't the "spritual principle of Anonymity" wonderful when
you want to secretly, from the behind a mask, stab someone in the back,
so to speak? How spiritual you are. Not!

It seems you have not only missed, but missed by a mile. I've not
received one email, although from what you are saying you wanted my
email flooded. Perhaps the Steps aren't so sacrosanct in Europe as you
think they are.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

[stuart]

Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:Zeadnf-sT6RQFgnenZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
> stuart wrote:
>
> >Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> >news:UZWdnc4QZ5g6eA7eRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
> >
> >
> >>stuart wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
> >>>news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Dan McGown wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
> >>>>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
> >>>>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >claim
> >
> >
> >>>>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>liver
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>transplant.
> >>>>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Dan,
> >>>>
> >>>>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have
any
> >>>>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
> >>>>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
> >>>>
> >>>>Ken Ragge
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on
> >>>
> >>>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>>George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
> >>>soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
> >>>apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your
email.
> >>>
> >>>
> >I
> >
> >
> >>>wouldn't do you the favour...
> >>>
> >>>You ignorant bastard.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Stuart,
> >>
> >>"Ignorant and insulting"? How is that? Do you think most British
> >>people even know anything about the 12-Step groups or would be
> >>supportive of a dirivative of American Fundamentalist Christianity as
> >>treatment if they knew anything about them?
> >>
> >>Why do I owe the fans an apology for believing it very likely the
> >>12-Steps killed him as it has so many others?
> >>
> >>Don't you think you owe them an apology for trying to use his memorial
> >>website to proseletyse your 12-Steps Powerless nonsense?
> >>
> >>Ken Ragge
> >>
> >>
> >
> >My views are not posted there, Ken, not even my name, just your quote.
YOU
> >are dissecting the life of a demi-god in the soccer culture, not that you
wo
> >uld have any identification with it. Manchester United just happens to be
> >the wealthiest sports club in the world. It has more assets than the
entire
> >NBA, Ken. Careful who you are insulting. Sorry about your email if it
gets
> >clogged.
> >
> >
> Stuart,
>
> But I wasn't insulting him. One could most certainly, and accurately,
> argue that I was insulting 12 Steppers who believe they have the one and
> only way to resolve a drinking problem and they have the one and only
> path to God to do that, but insulting him, not at all. Saying someone
> has been lied to and misled into accepting bogus "treatment" is not
> insulting him.
>
> The fact that you didn't have the guts to sign your own name just shows
> that you simply wanted to punish me for criticising "the program" and
> the Steps. Isn't the "spritual principle of Anonymity" wonderful when
> you want to secretly, from the behind a mask, stab someone in the back,
> so to speak? How spiritual you are. Not!
>
> It seems you have not only missed, but missed by a mile. I've not
> received one email, although from what you are saying you wanted my
> email flooded. Perhaps the Steps aren't so sacrosanct in Europe as you
> think they are.
>
> Ken Ragge

I haven't posted anything there yet, Ken. I wanted your response first. Nor,
was I "defending" 12-step treatment or any other form of "treatment".
What I was doing is pointing out your extreme insensitivity. The man, a
legend, is dead, and no "treatment" can do squat for him at this point.
Why can't you leave it at that, other than to point out a tragic set of
circumstances to defend your pet theories, and sell books?

He may in fact have tried your recommendations also and failed to stop
drinking.

You methods are disgusting and deserve nothing better than Jerry Springer.




> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> >>http://www.morerevealed.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >

[Ken]

stuart wrote:

>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>news:Zeadnf-sT6RQFgnenZ2dnUVZ_tOdnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
>>stuart wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>>news:UZWdnc4QZ5g6eA7eRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>stuart wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Ken <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>>>>news:D9Kdnb_u7-yRKA7eRVn-rA@comcast.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Dan McGown wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh, and by the way, *no* *one* could have taught George Best to drink
>>>>>>>moderately. He wasn't even interested in moderation.
>>>>>>>-- and only a dyed in the wool snake oil salesman would even try to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>claim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>that they could teach moderate drinking to someone who had to have a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>liver
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>transplant.
>>>>>>>What a couple of despicable gyps.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Didn't he have 12-Step treatment? And how many times? Do you have
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>any
>
>
>>>>>>evidence that he had even heard about alternatives to the Step groups?
>>>>>>Where did the 12-Steps and disease nonsense get him?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ken Ragge
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>PS: I have just cut and pasted your ignorant and insulting comments on
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>the
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>George Best memorial website for the perusal and disgust of all British
>>>>>soccer fans to read. I believe Ken Ragge owes Manchester United fans an
>>>>>apology. And NO I won't give them your website address, just your
>>>>>
>>>>>
>email.
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>I
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>wouldn't do you the favour...
>>>>>
>>>>>You ignorant bastard.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Stuart,
>>>>
>>>>"Ignorant and insulting"? How is that? Do you think most British
>>>>people even know anything about the 12-Step groups or would be
>>>>supportive of a dirivative of American Fundamentalist Christianity as
>>>>treatment if they knew anything about them?
>>>>
>>>>Why do I owe the fans an apology for believing it very likely the
>>>>12-Steps killed him as it has so many others?
>>>>
>>>>Don't you think you owe them an apology for trying to use his memorial
>>>>website to proseletyse your 12-Steps Powerless nonsense?
>>>>
>>>>Ken Ragge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>My views are not posted there, Ken, not even my name, just your quote.
>>>
>>>
>YOU
>
>
>>>are dissecting the life of a demi-god in the soccer culture, not that you
>>>
>>>
>wo
>
>
>>>uld have any identification with it. Manchester United just happens to be
>>>the wealthiest sports club in the world. It has more assets than the
>>>
>>>
>entire
>
>
>>>NBA, Ken. Careful who you are insulting. Sorry about your email if it
>>>
>>>
>gets
>
>
>>>clogged.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Stuart,
>>
>>But I wasn't insulting him. One could most certainly, and accurately,
>>argue that I was insulting 12 Steppers who believe they have the one and
>>only way to resolve a drinking problem and they have the one and only
>>path to God to do that, but insulting him, not at all. Saying someone
>>has been lied to and misled into accepting bogus "treatment" is not
>>insulting him.
>>
>>The fact that you didn't have the guts to sign your own name just shows
>>that you simply wanted to punish me for criticising "the program" and
>>the Steps. Isn't the "spritual principle of Anonymity" wonderful when
>>you want to secretly, from the behind a mask, stab someone in the back,
>>so to speak? How spiritual you are. Not!
>>
>>It seems you have not only missed, but missed by a mile. I've not
>>received one email, although from what you are saying you wanted my
>>email flooded. Perhaps the Steps aren't so sacrosanct in Europe as you
>>think they are.
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>
>>
>
>I haven't posted anything there yet, Ken. I wanted your response first. Nor,
>was I "defending" 12-step treatment or any other form of "treatment".
>What I was doing is pointing out your extreme insensitivity. The man, a
>legend, is dead, and no "treatment" can do squat for him at this point.
>Why can't you leave it at that, other than to point out a tragic set of
>circumstances to defend your pet theories, and sell books?
>
>
Stuart,

You know I am selling no books. I've arranged to give several away,
some with the copyright owners and a couple of Oxford Group books on
which the copyright has run out. To say that I'm trying to sell books
is an outright lie. If you aren't lying about it, if your "Higher
Power" is speaking through you, he/she/it is lying through his teeth.

The Step groups have never, ever, hesitated to take advantage of the
deaths of people who die from excessive drinking. To suggest that
because I note that Best had Step treatment and it was useless (probably
far worse than useless) shouldn't be done is out of line.

What pointing out the nature of Step treatment, the fact that it is
religious indoctrination rather than treatment, might well do a great
deal of good for a lot of people who aren't dead.

>He may in fact have tried your recommendations also and failed to stop
>drinking.
>
>
He didn't try any of "my recommendations." He never asked. Don't be silly.

>You methods are disgusting and deserve nothing better than Jerry Springer.
>
>
No. Your organizations methods are disgusting. For example, when Audrey
Kishline quit MM, joined AA and several months later was the cause of a
fatal crash, 12-Step front group NCADD lost no time in putting out press
releases that made it look like she was an MM member and that MM was
responsible while never mentioning that at the time of the accident she
had been an AA member for months. That is disgusting.

Do you want to talk about the Sobell's research and what the Steppers
did to them and how they got it falsely presented it the media? That
was disgusting too.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

>
>
>
>
>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>
>>
>>
>>>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>

[Knob Jockey]

"Murdoch" <alcocure@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1133552383.312628.150530@f14g2000cwb.googlegr oups.com...
Given proper advice, George Best
could have drunk safely again
[snip]
----------------------------------------------------


Personally I don't think that George Best could have ever drunk safely
again, nor that he wanted to.
And, more importantly, I don't think you think otherwise.

I might have paid more attention to your claims if you hadn't posted details
of a book for sale.
There's an old saying that people look for answers they want to hear --
you're clearly trying to tap into this market.
And no doubt people will buy your book -- more fool them.

Well, whatever, shit happens, as Confucius once said.

I hope you get knob-rot and that it falls off (although I don't mean that
maliciously).
Keep it real muthafucka.
KJ

[Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo]

Ken wrote:
>
>>
> For example, when Audrey
> Kishline quit MM, joined AA and several months later was the cause of a
> fatal crash, 12-Step front group NCADD lost no time in putting out press
> releases that made it look like she was an MM member and that MM was
> responsible while never mentioning that at the time of the accident she
> had been an AA member for months. That is disgusting.
>

Thanks for sharing Ken.
Still pushing that MM crap and .. and it's poor results.
All I see is that neither program worked for her.
Which program do you think encourged her more to
quit all together or maybe encourged her to take one
more for the road because she was still within
the moderated limits ?

[Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo]

Ken wrote:

> For example, when Audrey
> Kishline quit MM, joined AA and several months later was the cause of a
> fatal crash, 12-Step front group NCADD lost no time in putting out press
> releases that made it look like she was an MM member and that MM was
> responsible while never mentioning that at the time of the accident she
> had been an AA member for months. That is disgusting.


Thanks for sharing Ken.
Still pushing that MM crap .. and it's poor results.
All I see is that neither program worked for her.
Which program do you think encourged her more to
quit all together or maybe encourged her to take one
more for the road because she was still within
the moderated limits ?

[Ken]

Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo wrote:

> Ken wrote:
>
>>
>>>
>> For example, when Audrey Kishline quit MM, joined AA and several
>> months later was the cause of a fatal crash, 12-Step front group
>> NCADD lost no time in putting out press releases that made it look
>> like she was an MM member and that MM was responsible while never
>> mentioning that at the time of the accident she had been an AA member
>> for months. That is disgusting.
>>
>
> Thanks for sharing Ken.
> Still pushing that MM crap and .. and it's poor results.
> All I see is that neither program worked for her.
> Which program do you think encourged her more to
> quit all together or maybe encourged her to take one
> more for the road because she was still within
> the moderated limits ?

Another,

If you want to argue which one she did better in, I'm game. She was in
MM for ten years and it was only after a few months in AA, as an AA
member that she got stupid drunk and killed two people on the highway.

Just what point are you trying to make with your post above?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

[Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo]

Ken wrote:
> Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo wrote:
>
>> Ken wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>> For example, when Audrey Kishline quit MM, joined AA and several
>>> months later was the cause of a fatal crash, 12-Step front group
>>> NCADD lost no time in putting out press releases that made it look
>>> like she was an MM member and that MM was responsible while never
>>> mentioning that at the time of the accident she had been an AA member
>>> for months. That is disgusting.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for sharing Ken.
>> Still pushing that MM crap and .. and it's poor results.
>> All I see is that neither program worked for her.
>> Which program do you think encourged her more to
>> quit all together or maybe encourged her to take one
>> more for the road because she was still within
>> the moderated limits ?
>
>
> Another,
>
> If you want to argue which one she did better in, I'm game. She was in
> MM for ten years and it was only after a few months in AA, as an AA
> member that she got stupid drunk and killed two people on the highway.
> Just what point are you trying to make with your post above?
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com

Thanks for sharing Ken.

You can't argue with a dead body.

Besides you brought her up *again*, not me.

Neither group put that drink or the car keys
in her hand and unless you were personally
there for 10 plus years watching all her
behaviours up to the very end, you can't
possibly argue/prove anything in your "game".

[Ken]

Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo wrote:

> Ken wrote:
>
>> Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo wrote:
>>
>>> Ken wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> For example, when Audrey Kishline quit MM, joined AA and several
>>>> months later was the cause of a fatal crash, 12-Step front group
>>>> NCADD lost no time in putting out press releases that made it look
>>>> like she was an MM member and that MM was responsible while never
>>>> mentioning that at the time of the accident she had been an AA
>>>> member for months. That is disgusting.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for sharing Ken.
>>> Still pushing that MM crap and .. and it's poor results.
>>> All I see is that neither program worked for her.
>>> Which program do you think encourged her more to
>>> quit all together or maybe encourged her to take one
>>> more for the road because she was still within
>>> the moderated limits ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Another,
>>
>> If you want to argue which one she did better in, I'm game. She was
>> in MM for ten years and it was only after a few months in AA, as an
>> AA member that she got stupid drunk and killed two people on the
>> highway.
>> Just what point are you trying to make with your post above?
>> Ken Ragge
>> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
>
> Thanks for sharing Ken.
>
> You can't argue with a dead body.
>
> Besides you brought her up *again*, not me.
>
> Neither group put that drink or the car keys
> in her hand and unless you were personally
> there for 10 plus years watching all her
> behaviours up to the very end, you can't
> possibly argue/prove anything in your "game".
>
>
Another,

What you write might, and I stress might, make more sense if you would
actually read a thread and taking maybe just a moment to think before
responding to it.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

[Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo]

Ken wrote:

>>
> Another,
>
> What you write might, and I stress might, make more sense if you would
> actually read a thread and taking maybe just a moment to think before
> responding to it.
>

Thanks for sharing, Ken.

I still wonder why you troll here
provoking others with your lies and
bullshit. What are you really offering ?

You bring up this murder every chance
you get and blame AA on her drinking
and killing. IF she would have spent 10 years in AA
sober rather than in MM drinking, you could have
a point.

[Ken]

Another Cultist Subliminal Message from AA: Boo wrote:

> Ken wrote:
>
>>>
>> Another,
>>
>> What you write might, and I stress might, make more sense if you
>> would actually read a thread and taking maybe just a moment to think
>> before responding to it.
>>
>
> Thanks for sharing, Ken.
>
> I still wonder why you troll here
> provoking others with your lies and
> bullshit. What are you really offering ?

Another,

Why do you think I lie? Because I don't praise your 12-Steps? Much of
what I say about AA history is from the AA conference-approved
literature. Much of what I say about the program can be cited from AA
conference-approved literature. Most of the rest can be cited from
either the scientific literature, from newspapers (e.g. the news story
that you object to so much that was released by the NCADD) and from
Oxford Group sources.

>
> You bring up this murder every chance
> you get and blame AA on her drinking
> and killing.

Most certainly not every chance I get but what the Step front group
NCADD did should be as widely publicized as their disgusting, misleading
information.

> IF she would have spent 10 years in AA
> sober rather than in MM drinking, you could have
> a point.

Do you mean ten years in AA sober before she got drunk and killed two
people?

The issue isn't that she is an AA member. The issue is that the Stepper
front group NCADD went all out to publicize a person who had left MM and
joined AA and killed two people as an AA as if she wasn't an AA but an
MM member. Don't you get it?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com