"neo-Buchmanism?" Oh lawsy lawsy, it's "Attack of the Jargon Spouting Beast
from Outer Space!" Where will it ever end? (Or at least, *when* will it
ever end?)
"Ken" <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
news:-NqdncIJVunQsQreRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> John Royer wrote:
>
>>"Ken" <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>news:P9OdnamIHYp2QQjenZ2dnUVZ_v6dnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>
>>>John Royer wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Ken" <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>>>news:pdWdnXGwn62UKg7eRVn-qg@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>John Royer wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Ken" <nospam@nowhere.org> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:zfOdneiYrPTjHxPenZ2dnUVZ_tydnZ2d@comcast.com. ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>John Royer wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><DaveB> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:438dd373.1115321@news.dslextreme.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:22:20 -0500, "Dan McGown"
>>>>>>>>><dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Dave, please notice that Murdoch said that we could *drink*
>>>>>>>>>>again -- he
>>>>>>>>>>didn't say anything about being able to *stop* drinking again! <L>
>>>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><DaveB> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>news:438d0a9b.17578587@news.dslextreme.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On 29 Nov 2005 13:57:41 -0800, "Murdoch" <alcocure@aol.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>WhooooooooHoooooooooooo, damn I been waiting for someone to say
>>>>>>>>>>>it's
>>>>>>>>>>>ok.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Best
>>>>>>>>>>>Daveb
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Chit........lol (funny)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Daveb
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And just how much money do this idiots hope to make destroying
>>>>>>>>people and their families lives?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>John,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I've heard it a million times so it must be true, yes?
>>>>>>>While I most certainly don't believe everyone can learn to drink
>>>>>>>responsibly again, nor do I think it worth the time and effort many
>>>>>>>others who could would need to put into it, research shows quite the
>>>>>>>opposite of what you say above. In AA board member and Al Anon
>>>>>>>George Vaillant's own research, the only thing that making people
>>>>>>>believe that abstinence was necessary for everyone did was to lower
>>>>>>>the number of successful recoveries from excessive drinking. Of
>>>>>>>those who did what Vaillant told them to do and went to AA, only 5
>>>>>>>percent maintained abstinence. The other group not only had the same
>>>>>>>5 percent who maintained abstinence but a larger percentage who
>>>>>>>managed moderation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Telling people to go out and "try moderating" as the Big Book
>>>>>>>suggests without suggesting that they deal with the problems that are
>>>>>>>causing them to behave self-destructively is what is killing people.
>>>>>>>Ken Ragge
>>>>>>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Ken,
>>>>>>since I work in the field I'd be very interested in reviewing this
>>>>>>research you speak of. My research suggests that recovery rates
>>>>>>regardless of methods used, favor abstinence as being the most
>>>>>>efficous and harm reduction as only delaying the inevitable. Of course
>>>>>>the damage done in the meantime notwithstanding, does line pockets of
>>>>>>those who advocate it.
>>>>>>No one suggests that not dealing with the underlying problems is
>>>>>>helpful. The 12 steps are supposed to do that. In fact I just reviewed
>>>>>>a piece of research on Anxiety Disorders and the method used to record
>>>>>>the triggers was modeled on the Serenity Prayer.
>>>>>>Please be so kind as to cite the research so that I can become more
>>>>>>aware of this method.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>John
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>John,
>>>>>
>>>>>Some of the studies are discussed and references are at:
>>>>>http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
>>>>>Click on chapter two, "Does it Really Work?" and chapter three,
>>>>>"Disease Theory."
>>>>>
>>>>>If you want to know what the Steps really do, check out the chapter on
>>>>>the Steps, "The Road of Happy Destiny." They are designed to convert
>>>>>people to neo-Buchmanism, nothing more, nothing less.
>>>>>Ken Ragge
>>>>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>Ken
>>>>I checked out the studies (random checking) time does not allow for
>>>>exhaustive study but..if you can show me where AA was used in this
>>>>experiment?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>John,
>>>
>>>I'm not sure how you think the below is relevant to the discussion
>>>whether AA is used or not. They are about enforcing prohibition on
>>>teens, are they not? What does that have to do with the price of eggs in
>>>Denmark?
>>>
>>>Ken Ragge
>>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>>
>>
>>These are sources YOU CITED in your website as to the ineffectiveness of
>>AA. If I am attempting to use a source to cite proof of
>>my hypothesis or state my position, my credibility is diminished if I use
>>sources that do not support my hypothesis or position such as the
>>information you cited. I am NOT stating all your sources are of similar
>>irrelevence since as I said time does not permit. As to the price of eggs
>>in Denmark it would make sense to check Danish sources for costs and do a
>>cost benefit analysis to establish Danish statistics vis a vis the
>>effectiveness of Canadaina egg producers. . If you want to refute the
>>efficacy of AA it makes sense to use sources which specifically studied
>>AA.
>>
>>John
>>
> John,
>
> I'm not sure where you got the studies you cited from. They may be cited
> by someone else on my website but they aren't from "More Revealed" and
> they certainly weren't referred to by me as part of this discussion. The
> post where I said where the references were is repeated again below:
> __________________________________________________ _________
>
> Some of the studies are discussed and references are at:
> http://www.morerevealed.com/mr/newmr_0.jsp
> Click on chapter two, "Does it Really Work?" and chapter three, "Disease
> Theory."
>
> If you want to know what the Steps really do, check out the chapter on the
> Steps, "The Road of Happy Destiny." They are designed to convert people
> to neo-Buchmanism, nothing more, nothing less.
>
> __________________________________________________ ______
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
>>
>>>> Trial Name: Wagenaar 2000
>>>> Current Status of Trial: Closed
>>>> Country of origin: United States
>>>> Duration of Trial: 2,5 years
>>>> Trial Design: RCT
>>>> Blinding: Unclear
>>>> Health Condition: Alcohol Drinking
>>>> Health Condition: Alcohol Drinking/ Alcohol Consumption +/
>>>> Drinking, Alcohol +/ Drinking Behavior/ Behavior/ Behavior and Behavior
>>>> Mechanisms
>>>> Main Diagnostic Criteria: Unclear
>>>> Participant Age: Adolescents. Adults
>>>> Interventions: Control Groups +; Community Program +
>>>> Interventions: Community Program +/ Community Mental Health
>>>> Services/ Mental Health Services/ Behavioral Disciplines and
>>>> Activities/ Health Services/ Health Care Facilities, Manpower, and
>>>> Services
>>>> Absolute Number of Participants/Units: 15 (communities)
>>>> Unit of Allocation: Communities
>>>> Outcomes: Annual Arrests; Access to alcohol; Drinking behaviour;
>>>> Traffic crash
>>>> Cochrane Review Group: Cochrane Drugs and Alcohol Group
>>>> Link to related Cochrane Review: Prevention for alcohol misuse in
>>>> young people
>>>>
>>>> Date Created/Modified: 6.8.2002
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> References to Trial Wagenaar 2000:
>>>>
>>>> Reference 1.
>>>> Author(s): Wagenaar AC, Murray DM, Gehan JP, Wolfson M,
>>>> Forster JL, Toomey TL, Perry CL, Jones-Webb R
>>>> Title: Communities mobilizing for change on alcohol: outcomes
>>>> from a randomized community trial.
>>>> Source: Journal of Studies on Alcohol
>>>> Date of Publication: 2000
>>>> Volume: 61
>>>> Issue: 1
>>>> Page(s): 85-94
>>>> Language: English
>>>> Date Created Edited: 7.4.2003
>>>>
>>>> Medline Unique Identifier: 20090527
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Abstract: OBJECTIVE: Communities Mobilizing for Change on
>>>> Alcohol (CMCA) was a randomized 15-community trial of a community
>>>> organizing intervention designed to reduce the accessibility of
>>>> alcoholic beverages to youths under the legal drinking age.METHOD: Data
>>>> were collected at baseline before random assignment of communities to
>>>> intervention or control condition, and again at follow-up after a
>>>> 2.5-year intervention.Data collection included in-school surveys of
>>>> twelfth graders, telephone surveys of 18- to 20-year-olds and alcohol
>>>> merchants, and direct testing of the propensity of alcohol outlets to
>>>> sell to young buyers.Analyses were based on mixed-model regression,
>>>> used the community as the unit of assignment, took into account the
>>>> nesting of indivi dual respondents or alcohol outlets within each
>>>> community, and controlled for relevant covariates. RESULTS: Results
>>>> show that the CMCA intervention significantly and favorably affected
>>>> both the behavior of 18- to 20-year-olds (effect size = 0.76, p<. 01)
>>>> and the practices of on-sale alcohol establishments (effect size =
>>>> 1.18, p<.05), may have favorably affected the practices of off-sale
>>>> alcohol establishments (effect size = 0.32, p = .08), but had little
>>>> effect on younger adolescents.Alcohol mer chants appear to have
>>>> increased age-identification checking and reduced propensity to sell to
>>>> minors.Eighteen- to 20-year-olds reduced their propensity to provide
>>>> alcohol to other teens and were less likely to try to buy alcohol,
>>>> drink in a bar or c onsume alcohol.CONCLUSIONS: Community organizing is
>>>> a useful intervention approach for mobilizing communities for
>>>> institutional and policy change to improve the health of the
>>>> population.
>>>>
>>>> Keywords: Adolescence/Adult/Age Factors/Alcohol
>>>> Drinking/legislation&jurisprudence/*prevention&control/Alcoholic
>>>> Beverages/*supply&distribution/Cohort Studies/Community
>>>> Networks/*statistics&numerical data/Data
>>>> Collection/Female/Human/Male/Models, Stati stical/Regression
>>>> Analysis/Support, U.S.Gov't, P.H.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reference 2.
>>>> Author(s): Wagenaar A C, Murray D M, Toomey T L
>>>> Title: Communities mobilizing for change on alcohol (CMCA):
>>>> effects of a randomized trial on arrests and traffic crashes
>>>> Source: Addiction
>>>> Date of Publication: 2000
>>>> Volume: 95
>>>> Issue: 2
>>>> Page(s): 209-17
>>>> Language: English
>>>> Date Created Edited: 6.8.2002
>>>>
>>>> Medline Unique Identifier: 20188924
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Abstract: AIMS: We previously reported effects of the CMCA
>>>> intervention in reducing social and commercial access to alcohol by
>>>> youth, and reducing alcohol use by 18-20-year-olds.This paper reports
>>>> on effects of CMCA on arrests and car crashes.DESIGN: CMCA wa s a
>>>> group-randomized trial that implemented and evaluated a
>>>> community-organizing effort to change community policies and practices
>>>> to reduce youth access to alcohol.Seven Midwestern communities were
>>>> randomly assigned to the intervention condition an d eight communities
>>>> were assigned to the control condition.INTERVENTION: For 2.5 years, a
>>>> part-time community organizer worked in each of the seven intervention
>>>> communities with local public officials, enforcement agencies, alcohol
>>>> merchants, the me dia, schools and other community groups to reduce
>>>> youth access to alcohol.MEASUREMENT: We collected annual arrest and
>>>> quarterly traffic crash data for the years 1987-1995, providing a
>>>> 6-year baseline and 3 years of data during the intervention.Data were
>>>> stratified into two target age groups (15-17 and 18-20) and a control
>>>> group (age 21 and over).Analyses used random-coefficient models because
>>>> we had repeated observations for each unit of assignment in a
>>>> group-randomized trial with heterogeneo us trends across
>>>> communities.FINDINGS: We observed net declines in the intervention
>>>> communities for all arrest and traffic crash indicators.The decline was
>>>> statistically significant for DUI arrests among 18-20-year-olds and
>>>> approached significance for DUI arrests and disorderly conduct
>>>> violations among 15-17-year-olds.CONCLUSIONS: Together with previously
>>>> published results from this study, the results reported here suggest
>>>> that a community-organizing approach to limit youth access to alcohol
>>>> may be effective, at least for selected end-points and subgroups.We
>>>> conclude that this approach may be useful, but that a longer
>>>> intervention period is required to increase effectiveness.
>>>>
>>>> Keywords: Accidents, Traffic: statistics&numerical
>>>> data/Adolescence/Adult/Alcohol-Related Disorders:
>>>> *epidemiology/Alcoholic Beverages: *supply&distribution/Consumer
>>>> Organizations/*Consumer Participation/Crime: statistics&numerical
>>>> data/Human/Midwestern U