Anonymity

[John Royer]

Hello

I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.

Here it is.........THE STORY!

Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes inside
until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until then.
Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying to
present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they have
no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare it
PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming more
enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
detrimental.

My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their meeting
place and how do others feel about it.

If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
approx. geographic location?

Thanks

John

[John Droge]

"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:tT2Ye.7778$0u2.1263859@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> Hello
>
> I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>
> Here it is.........THE STORY!
>
> Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
> traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
> anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
> MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
> conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes
inside
> until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until
then.
> Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
> shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
> the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying
to
> present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they
have
> no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare
it
> PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
> neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming
more
> enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
> detrimental.
>
> My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their
meeting
> place and how do others feel about it.
>
> If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
> approx. geographic location?
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
Hey John
Here in metro Denver the only meeting place that I have seen with a sign was
in Spanish. I don't speak much Spanish so I've never done a meeting there.
It's only about 3 blocks from my home group so I see it all the time. I have
been to about 12 or so other places never marked until you get into the
building near the meeting room door and not always even then. It can be
tough some times to find the actual meeting! but ya know --go to any
lengths. I don't broadcast my situation to those who don't need to know and
I would just as well the meeting location doesn't either.
Peace
John

[someone in need]

and I have attended many "in park" public AA meetings as a concerned
family member. Perhaps I am labelled an alcoholic, but I do not
care. Gee, imagine if I had attended a gay AA meeting.

Personally i dont care about perceptions or misperceptions, just care
about what alcohol has done to my family and how we can overcome.

would not want to be seen at a KKK meeting nor want to attend, that is
real stigma.



On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:41:55 -0400, "John Royer"
<john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Hello
>
>I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>
>Here it is.........THE STORY!
>
>Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
>traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
>anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
>MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
>conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes inside
>until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until then.
>Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
>shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
>the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying to
>present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they have
>no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare it
>PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
>neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming more
>enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
>detrimental.
>
>My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their meeting
>place and how do others feel about it.
>
>If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
>approx. geographic location?
>
>Thanks
>
>John
>
>

[WACO]

Couldn't the group also have a costume party at the same time? Wouldn't
this solve the problem?

John Royer wrote:

> Hello
>
> I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>
> Here it is.........THE STORY!
>
> Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
> traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
> anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
> MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
> conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes inside
> until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until then.
> Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
> shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
> the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying to
> present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they have
> no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare it
> PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
> neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming more
> enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
> detrimental.
>
> My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their meeting
> place and how do others feel about it.
>
> If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
> approx. geographic location?
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>

[rosie read n' post]

in 23 yrs, i have not been to an AA meeting that was marked on the
outside of the building.
southeast Wisconsin, ft. lauderdale, naples, ohio.






"John Royer" <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:tT2Ye.7778$0u2.1263859@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> Hello
>
> I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>
> Here it is.........THE STORY!
>
> Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street
and
> traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
> anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large
A.A.
> MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an
air
> conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes
inside
> until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until
then.
> Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The
coming
> shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility
but
> the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am
trying to
> present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they
have
> no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to
declare it
> PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the
whole
> neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is
becoming more
> enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
> detrimental.
>
> My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their
meeting
> place and how do others feel about it.
>
> If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
> approx. geographic location?
>
> Thanks
>
> John
>
>

[gammler@cox.net]

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:41:55 -0400, "John Royer"
<john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote:

>Hello
>
>I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>
>Here it is.........THE STORY!
>
>Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
>traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
>anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
>MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
>conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes inside
>until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until then.
>Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
>shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
>the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying to
>present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they have
>no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare it
>PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
>neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming more
>enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
>detrimental.
>
>My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their meeting
>place and how do others feel about it.
>
>If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
>approx. geographic location?
>
>Thanks
>
>John

The purpose of anonymity is not so much to reduce the stigma of being
an alcoholic as it is to foster humility. I define humility as "not
thinking less of myself but thinking of myself less". When I was
drinking, I was the arbiter of the universe. Now I think of myself as
a little cog in a great big wheel.

Strictly speaking, I doubt there are many alcoholics who are
completely anonymous. Very few of us came into the program
voluntarily. We were driven to it by the courts, employers, wives,
husbands,girlfriends, boyfriends, parents etc. If one thinks I am
anonymous, lets go down to the court house. My name shows up there
several times.

To answer your question directly, it doesn't make a whole lot of
difference to me if the meeting is advertised where the general public
can see it.

Sam
>

[Ken Ragge]

gammler@cox.net wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:41:55 -0400, "John Royer"
> <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Hello
>>
>>I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>>
>>Here it is.........THE STORY!
>>
>>Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
>>traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
>>anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
>>MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
>>conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes inside
>>until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until then.
>>Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
>>shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
>>the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying to
>>present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they have
>>no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare it
>>PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
>>neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming more
>>enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
>>detrimental.
>>
>>My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their meeting
>>place and how do others feel about it.
>>
>>If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
>>approx. geographic location?
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>John
>
>
> The purpose of anonymity is not so much to reduce the stigma of being
> an alcoholic as it is to foster humility. I define humility as "not
> thinking less of myself but thinking of myself less". When I was
> drinking, I was the arbiter of the universe. Now I think of myself as
> a little cog in a great big wheel.

Sam,

In one sense you are correct above. The Frank F and his Oxford Group,
which Bill W. and Dr. Bob were members of when the Big Book was written,
was big on "humility" and "anonymity." However, the AA Tradition on
"Anonymity at the media level" has nothing to do with humility or
anything "spiritual" when it comes to anonymity, but at experiencing
terrible embarassment on members getting media attention with
pro-spiritual program spiels and then getting just as publicly
embarrassingly drunk. Anonymity is not to serve the needs of the
member. It is to serve the needs of AA. There is no rule against an AA
member saying he is an alcoholic anywhere. The rule is against saying
he is an AA member in the media.

Come to think of it, if the public were to see how often AA members get
drunk, it might be good for AA's collective humility. :-)

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

> Strictly speaking, I doubt there are many alcoholics who are
> completely anonymous. Very few of us came into the program
> voluntarily. We were driven to it by the courts, employers, wives,
> husbands,girlfriends, boyfriends, parents etc. If one thinks I am
> anonymous, lets go down to the court house. My name shows up there
> several times.
>
> To answer your question directly, it doesn't make a whole lot of
> difference to me if the meeting is advertised where the general public
> can see it.
>
> Sam
>

[Robert McGregor]

"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JfOdnTaJKYxzU6XeRVn-ug@comcast.com...

>
> Come to think of it, if the public were to see how often AA members
> get drunk, it might be good for AA's collective humility. :-)

It is interesting watching AA members wallowing in their mire of
pseudo humility, while boasting extravagantly about the successes of
their collective selves!

Humble Bob ;)

[gammler@cox.net]

On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:47:48 -0700, Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote:

>gammler@cox.net wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:41:55 -0400, "John Royer"
>> <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello
>>>
>>>I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>>>
>>>Here it is.........THE STORY!
>>>
>>>Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy street and
>>>traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to observe
>>>anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a large A.A.
>>>MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not an air
>>>conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one goes inside
>>>until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside until then.
>>>Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The coming
>>>shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer visibility but
>>>the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am trying to
>>>present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said they have
>>>no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to declare it
>>>PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish the whole
>>>neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is becoming more
>>>enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
>>>detrimental.
>>>
>>>My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside their meeting
>>>place and how do others feel about it.
>>>
>>>If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate your
>>>approx. geographic location?
>>>
>>>Thanks
>>>
>>>John
>>
>>
>> The purpose of anonymity is not so much to reduce the stigma of being
>> an alcoholic as it is to foster humility. I define humility as "not
>> thinking less of myself but thinking of myself less". When I was
>> drinking, I was the arbiter of the universe. Now I think of myself as
>> a little cog in a great big wheel.
>
>Sam,
>
>In one sense you are correct above. The Frank F and his Oxford Group,
>which Bill W. and Dr. Bob were members of when the Big Book was written,
>was big on "humility" and "anonymity." However, the AA Tradition on
>"Anonymity at the media level" has nothing to do with humility or
>anything "spiritual" when it comes to anonymity, but at experiencing
>terrible embarassment on members getting media attention with
>pro-spiritual program spiels and then getting just as publicly
>embarrassingly drunk. Anonymity is not to serve the needs of the
>member. It is to serve the needs of AA. There is no rule against an AA
>member saying he is an alcoholic anywhere. The rule is against saying
>he is an AA member in the media.
>
>Come to think of it, if the public were to see how often AA members get
>drunk, it might be good for AA's collective humility. :-)
>
>Ken Ragge
>http://www.morerevealed.com
>
>> Strictly speaking, I doubt there are many alcoholics who are
>> completely anonymous. Very few of us came into the program
>> voluntarily. We were driven to it by the courts, employers, wives,
>> husbands,girlfriends, boyfriends, parents etc. If one thinks I am
>> anonymous, lets go down to the court house. My name shows up there
>> several times.
>>
>> To answer your question directly, it doesn't make a whole lot of
>> difference to me if the meeting is advertised where the general public
>> can see it.
>>
>> Sam
>>
Your point is, of course, well taken. AA's 12 traditions are in place
to protect AA, from some degree, from its membership. It is well
within the realm of possibility that someone could bang the AA drum in
the media and then get publicly drunk later on. There have been cases
of it in the past. "Slips" can and do happen. I am living proof of
that. Any member of AA can break his anonymity. If he does it in the
media, he damages the program, no matter if he gets drunk later on or
not.

Both AA and society at large knows that alcohol is an addicting
substance that gives the illusion of doing something for the
individual. If it wasn't, then why would people drink it? When I was
drinking, I was indifferent to the taste. I wanted the effects.

I still think, however, that the main reason for anonymity is for the
cultivation of humility. Without humility, I am again the arbiter of
the universe. As arbiter of the universe, I won't stay sober very
long. In my case, that is a given.

[Robert McGregor]

<gammler@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ks5jj19vg1v381irhlrkm2smtit52h4c3o@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:47:48 -0700, Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>>gammler@cox.net wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 21:41:55 -0400, "John Royer"
>>> <john.royer2@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hello
>>>>
>>>>I have a question and I'd like some feedback if any are willing.
>>>>
>>>>Here it is.........THE STORY!
>>>>
>>>>Our group meets on two evenings a week. It is a relatively busy
>>>>street and
>>>>traffic is such that all who pass by have ample opportunity to
>>>>observe
>>>>anyone who is standing outside our meeting place. There is a
>>>>large A.A.
>>>>MEETING sign placed right outside where members stand. It is not
>>>>an air
>>>>conditioned place and gets quite muggy inside. Naturally no-one
>>>>goes inside
>>>>until the meeting is to start and does their socializing outside
>>>>until then.
>>>>Then of course there are the smokers who are outside as well. The
>>>>coming
>>>>shorter days and winter will alleviate the increased summer
>>>>visibility but
>>>>the issue is, how is anonymity protected under this method? I am
>>>>trying to
>>>>present this in as neutral a way as possible. One member has said
>>>>they have
>>>>no problem declaring themselves alcoholic but they do not want to
>>>>declare it
>>>>PUBLICLY! Another lives just down the street and does not wish
>>>>the whole
>>>>neighborhood to know. I can understand that. While society is
>>>>becoming more
>>>>enlightened there are still some prejudices and they can be very
>>>>detrimental.
>>>>
>>>>My question is twofold. Do other groups display signs outside
>>>>their meeting
>>>>place and how do others feel about it.
>>>>
>>>>If it is not too much of an imposition could you please indicate
>>>>your
>>>>approx. geographic location?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks
>>>>
>>>>John
>>>
>>>
>>> The purpose of anonymity is not so much to reduce the stigma of
>>> being
>>> an alcoholic as it is to foster humility. I define humility as
>>> "not
>>> thinking less of myself but thinking of myself less". When I was
>>> drinking, I was the arbiter of the universe. Now I think of
>>> myself as
>>> a little cog in a great big wheel.
>>
>>Sam,
>>
>>In one sense you are correct above. The Frank F and his Oxford
>>Group,
>>which Bill W. and Dr. Bob were members of when the Big Book was
>>written,
>>was big on "humility" and "anonymity." However, the AA Tradition
>>on
>>"Anonymity at the media level" has nothing to do with humility or
>>anything "spiritual" when it comes to anonymity, but at
>>experiencing
>>terrible embarassment on members getting media attention with
>>pro-spiritual program spiels and then getting just as publicly
>>embarrassingly drunk. Anonymity is not to serve the needs of the
>>member. It is to serve the needs of AA. There is no rule against
>>an AA
>>member saying he is an alcoholic anywhere. The rule is against
>>saying
>>he is an AA member in the media.
>>
>>Come to think of it, if the public were to see how often AA members
>>get
>>drunk, it might be good for AA's collective humility. :-)
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>http://www.morerevealed.com
>>
>>> Strictly speaking, I doubt there are many alcoholics who are
>>> completely anonymous. Very few of us came into the program
>>> voluntarily. We were driven to it by the courts, employers,
>>> wives,
>>> husbands,girlfriends, boyfriends, parents etc. If one thinks I
>>> am
>>> anonymous, lets go down to the court house. My name shows up
>>> there
>>> several times.
>>>
>>> To answer your question directly, it doesn't make a whole lot of
>>> difference to me if the meeting is advertised where the general
>>> public
>>> can see it.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
> Your point is, of course, well taken. AA's 12 traditions are in
> place
> to protect AA, from some degree, from its membership. It is well
> within the realm of possibility that someone could bang the AA drum
> in
> the media and then get publicly drunk later on. There have been
> cases
> of it in the past. "Slips" can and do happen. I am living proof
> of
> that. Any member of AA can break his anonymity. If he does it in
> the
> media, he damages the program, no matter if he gets drunk later on
> or
> not.


The AA organisation is on record attempting to break the anonymity of
some of it's own members.http://www.heise.nu/AALawsuit/

"Since April, 2003 Matthew has been making regular payments on the
judgment to AAWS and AAeV. Apparently, this payment plan has become
unacceptable, most likely because Matthew has not been willing to
agree to other conditions requested by AA Inc.--specifically to: 1)
reveal full names (break the anonymity) of others involved in these
12th step efforts; and 2) agree to never hand out another piece of
A.A. literature--regardless of who published it. "

Broken anonymity may damage the reputation of the AA organisation,
but it certainly does not alter the AA program, let alone damage it.

>
> Both AA and society at large knows that alcohol is an addicting
> substance that gives the illusion of doing something for the
> individual. If it wasn't, then why would people drink it? When I
> was
> drinking, I was indifferent to the taste. I wanted the effects.

Pertaining to "society at large," regardless of what you wanted, AA
has bothered to document a contrary opinion.

"...drinking means conviviality, companionship and colorful
imagination. It means release from care, boredom and worry."
http://tinyurl.com/85e3o

No mention of illusion there.

>
> I still think, however, that the main reason for anonymity is for
> the
> cultivation of humility. Without humility, I am again the arbiter
> of
> the universe. As arbiter of the universe, I won't stay sober very
> long. In my case, that is a given.

Apparently it's ok your being arbiter of AA and society at large, as
long as you're not "arbiter of the universe." ? What exactly is your
definition of humility?

Arbitrarily sober Bob