Why do we do it? [Archive] - Drug & Alcohol Rehab Forums & News

Bobby L

08-08-2005, 10:01 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide ourselves
> with
> > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us happy.
A
> > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare moment
> > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we
can't
> > > > experience any of it.
> > > >
> > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I could
tell
> > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > >
> > > > Poe
> > >
> > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the same
> scary
> > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world,
> change
> > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the only
> > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each other
> over
> > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they used
> > clubs,
> > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > >
> > > Darren
> > >
> > >
> >
> > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >
> Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
>
> Darren
> >
>

Was any of this included in your fourth step?

"Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference between us
and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to steal each
others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use pens, solcitors
and bailiffs."

Bobby L

Darren

08-09-2005, 06:47 AM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide
ourselves
> > with
> > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us
happy.
> A
> > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare
moment
> > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we
> can't
> > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I could
> tell
> > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > >
> > > > > Poe
> > > >
> > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the same
> > scary
> > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world,
> > change
> > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the only
> > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each other
> > over
> > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they
used
> > > clubs,
> > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
> > >
> > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> >
> > Darren
> > >
> >
>
> Was any of this included in your fourth step?
Yes, but an abbreviated version.
>
Darren

> "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference between us
> and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to steal each
> others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use pens,
solcitors
> and bailiffs."
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>
>

Bobby L

08-09-2005, 07:54 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide
> ourselves
> > > with
> > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us
> happy.
> > A
> > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare
> moment
> > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we
> > can't
> > > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I
could
> > tell
> > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Poe
> > > > >
> > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the
same
> > > scary
> > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world,
> > > change
> > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the
only
> > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each
other
> > > over
> > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they
> used
> > > > clubs,
> > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > > >
> > > > Bobby L
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > >
> > > Darren
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> >
> Darren
>
> > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference between
us
> > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to steal
each
> > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use pens,
> solcitors
> > and bailiffs."
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >
> >

Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?

Bobby L

Darren

08-13-2005, 07:05 AM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide
> > ourselves
> > > > with
> > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us
> > happy.
> > > A
> > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare
> > moment
> > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that
we
> > > can't
> > > > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I
> could
> > > tell
> > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Poe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the
> same
> > > > scary
> > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the
world,
> > > > change
> > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the
> only
> > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each
> other
> > > > over
> > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they
> > used
> > > > > clubs,
> > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Darren
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bobby L
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> > >
> > Darren
> >
> > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference
between
> us
> > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to steal
> each
> > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use pens,
> > solcitors
> > > and bailiffs."
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts of it are
read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.

Darren
>
> Bobby L
>
>

Bobby L

08-13-2005, 08:59 AM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide
> > > ourselves
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make
us
> > > happy.
> > > > A
> > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare
> > > moment
> > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so
that
> we
> > > > can't
> > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I
> > could
> > > > tell
> > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Poe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the
> > same
> > > > > scary
> > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the
> world,
> > > > > change
> > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because
the
> > only
> > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each
> > other
> > > > > over
> > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that
they
> > > used
> > > > > > clubs,
> > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> > > >
> > > Darren
> > >
> > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference
> between
> > us
> > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to
steal
> > each
> > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use pens,
> > > solcitors
> > > > and bailiffs."
> > > >
> > > > Bobby L
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts of it
are
> read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
>
> Darren
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >
>
>

Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For a
while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
mistaken... half in got me nothing.

Bobby L

Darren

08-13-2005, 06:30 PM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide
> > > > ourselves
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make
> us
> > > > happy.
> > > > > A
> > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every
spare
> > > > moment
> > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so
> that
> > we
> > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only
I
> > > could
> > > > > tell
> > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Poe
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still
the
> > > same
> > > > > > scary
> > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the
> > world,
> > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because
> the
> > > only
> > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash
each
> > > other
> > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that
> they
> > > > used
> > > > > > > clubs,
> > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> > > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > >
> > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference
> > between
> > > us
> > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to
> steal
> > > each
> > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use pens,
> > > > solcitors
> > > > > and bailiffs."
> > > > >
> > > > > Bobby L
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts of it
> are
> > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
> >
> > Darren
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For a
> while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
> mistaken... half in got me nothing.

Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that passage
in rahter than the abbreviated version?

Darren

>
> Bobby L
>
>

Bobby L

08-17-2005, 05:06 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
provide
> > > > > ourselves
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will
make
> > us
> > > > > happy.
> > > > > > A
> > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every
> spare
> > > > > moment
> > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so
> > that
> > > we
> > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if
only
> I
> > > > could
> > > > > > tell
> > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Poe
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > > scary
> > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change
the
> > > world,
> > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
because
> > the
> > > > only
> > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash
> each
> > > > other
> > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is
that
> > they
> > > > > used
> > > > > > > > clubs,
> > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference
> > > between
> > > > us
> > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to
> > steal
> > > > each
> > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use
pens,
> > > > > solcitors
> > > > > > and bailiffs."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts of
it
> > are
> > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
> > >
> > > Darren
> > > >
> > > > Bobby L
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For a
> > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
> > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
>
> Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that passage
> in rahter than the abbreviated version?
>
> Darren
>
> >
> > Bobby L
> >

Darren,

My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the Big
Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Bobby L

rockhound

08-17-2005, 08:23 PM

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:06:11 -0400, "Bobby L"
<bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>
>"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> >
>> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> > >
>> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>> > > >
>> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>> > > > >
>> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
>> > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
>provide
>> > > > > ourselves
>> > > > > > > with
>> > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will
>make
>> > us
>> > > > > happy.
>> > > > > > A
>> > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every
>> spare
>> > > > > moment
>> > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so
>> > that
>> > > we
>> > > > > > can't
>> > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if
>only
>> I
>> > > > could
>> > > > > > tell
>> > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
>> > > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > > Poe
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still
>> the
>> > > > same
>> > > > > > > scary
>> > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change
>the
>> > > world,
>> > > > > > > change
>> > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
>because
>> > the
>> > > > only
>> > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash
>> each
>> > > > other
>> > > > > > > over
>> > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is
>that
>> > they
>> > > > > used
>> > > > > > > > clubs,
>> > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > > Darren
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > > Bobby L
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Darren
>> > > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
>> > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > Darren
>> > > > >
>> > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only difference
>> > > between
>> > > > us
>> > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head to
>> > steal
>> > > > each
>> > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use
>pens,
>> > > > > solcitors
>> > > > > > and bailiffs."
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > Bobby L
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
>> > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts of
>it
>> > are
>> > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
>> > >
>> > > Darren
>> > > >
>> > > > Bobby L
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For a
>> > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
>> > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
>>
>> Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that passage
>> in rahter than the abbreviated version?
>>
>> Darren
>>
>> >
>> > Bobby L
>> >
>
>Darren,
>
>My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the Big
>Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
>
>Bobby L

I advise to the contrary. Shocking things may be revealed. Oblivion
not so bad after all.

Darren

08-17-2005, 08:36 PM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:xyOMe.21629$Rm3.17491@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
> provide
> > > > > > ourselves
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will
> make
> > > us
> > > > > > happy.
> > > > > > > A
> > > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every
> > spare
> > > > > > moment
> > > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality
so
> > > that
> > > > we
> > > > > > > can't
> > > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if
> only
> > I
> > > > > could
> > > > > > > tell
> > > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Poe
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was
still
> > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > > scary
> > > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change
> the
> > > > world,
> > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
> because
> > > the
> > > > > only
> > > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to
bash
> > each
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > > over
> > > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is
> that
> > > they
> > > > > > used
> > > > > > > > > clubs,
> > > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> > > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Darren
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only
difference
> > > > between
> > > > > us
> > > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head
to
> > > steal
> > > > > each
> > > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use
> pens,
> > > > > > solcitors
> > > > > > > and bailiffs."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> > > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts
of
> it
> > > are
> > > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > > Bobby L
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For
a
> > > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
> > > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
> >
> > Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that
passage
> > in rahter than the abbreviated version?
> >
> > Darren
> >
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
>
> Darren,
>
> My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the Big
> Book of Alcoholics Anonymous
I've done my step 4 and using the 4 catagories, who what how and my part
etc.

Darren.
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>
>

Darren

08-17-2005, 08:41 PM

"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:1124328217.540ffe208c927249391bd00c49e90c5d@t eranews...
> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:06:11 -0400, "Bobby L"
> <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >>
> >> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> >> >
> >> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> > >
> >> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
> >provide
> >> > > > > ourselves
> >> > > > > > > with
> >> > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will
> >make
> >> > us
> >> > > > > happy.
> >> > > > > > A
> >> > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend
every
> >> spare
> >> > > > > moment
> >> > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality
so
> >> > that
> >> > > we
> >> > > > > > can't
> >> > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if
> >only
> >> I
> >> > > > could
> >> > > > > > tell
> >> > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Poe
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was
still
> >> the
> >> > > > same
> >> > > > > > > scary
> >> > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change
> >the
> >> > > world,
> >> > > > > > > change
> >> > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
> >because
> >> > the
> >> > > > only
> >> > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to
bash
> >> each
> >> > > > other
> >> > > > > > > over
> >> > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is
> >that
> >> > they
> >> > > > > used
> >> > > > > > > > clubs,
> >> > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Darren
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Bobby L
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Darren
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> >> > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > Darren
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only
difference
> >> > > between
> >> > > > us
> >> > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head
to
> >> > steal
> >> > > > each
> >> > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use
> >pens,
> >> > > > > solcitors
> >> > > > > > and bailiffs."
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Bobby L
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> >> > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts
of
> >it
> >> > are
> >> > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
> >> > >
> >> > > Darren
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Bobby L
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For
a
> >> > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
> >> > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
> >>
> >> Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that
passage
> >> in rahter than the abbreviated version?
> >>
> >> Darren
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Bobby L
> >> >
> >
> >Darren,
> >
> >My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the Big
> >Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
> >
> >Bobby L
>
> I advise to the contrary. Shocking things may be revealed. Oblivion
> not so bad after all.

I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest that
really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can take time
to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm sharing
bit by bit with a very close family member. :)

Darren

Bobby L

08-17-2005, 09:13 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:8HRMe.8000$9b6.1688@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
> news:1124328217.540ffe208c927249391bd00c49e90c5d@t eranews...
> > On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:06:11 -0400, "Bobby L"
> > <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > >news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > >>
> > >> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > >> news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> > >> >
> > >> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > >> > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > >> > >
> > >> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > >> > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> > >> > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> > >> > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
> > >provide
> > >> > > > > ourselves
> > >> > > > > > > with
> > >> > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think
will
> > >make
> > >> > us
> > >> > > > > happy.
> > >> > > > > > A
> > >> > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend
> every
> > >> spare
> > >> > > > > moment
> > >> > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of
reality
> so
> > >> > that
> > >> > > we
> > >> > > > > > can't
> > >> > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety,
if
> > >only
> > >> I
> > >> > > > could
> > >> > > > > > tell
> > >> > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> > >> > > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > > Poe
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was
> still
> > >> the
> > >> > > > same
> > >> > > > > > > scary
> > >> > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't
change
> > >the
> > >> > > world,
> > >> > > > > > > change
> > >> > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
> > >because
> > >> > the
> > >> > > > only
> > >> > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to
> bash
> > >> each
> > >> > > > other
> > >> > > > > > > over
> > >> > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc
is
> > >that
> > >> > they
> > >> > > > > used
> > >> > > > > > > > clubs,
> > >> > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > > Darren
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > > Bobby L
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > Darren
> > >> > > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> > >> > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > Darren
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only
> difference
> > >> > > between
> > >> > > > us
> > >> > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the
head
> to
> > >> > steal
> > >> > > > each
> > >> > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we
use
> > >pens,
> > >> > > > > solcitors
> > >> > > > > > and bailiffs."
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Bobby L
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> > >> > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and
parts
> of
> > >it
> > >> > are
> > >> > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Darren
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Bobby L
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?"
For
> a
> > >> > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I
was
> > >> > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
> > >>
> > >> Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that
> passage
> > >> in rahter than the abbreviated version?
> > >>
> > >> Darren
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > Bobby L
> > >> >
> > >
> > >Darren,
> > >
> > >My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the
Big
> > >Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
> > >
> > >Bobby L
> >
> > I advise to the contrary. Shocking things may be revealed. Oblivion
> > not so bad after all.
>
> I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest that
> really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can take
time
> to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm
sharing
> bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
>
> Darren
>
>

I was told it was less about getting things off my chest and more about
finding out why they were there to begin with, but I got that from another
alcoholic, too.

http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/
http://www.m-w.com

Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others had
done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes. Where had we been selfish,
dishonest, self-seeking and frightened? Though a situation had not been
entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved
entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other
man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in
black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set
these matters straight."
(from Chap 5, Alcoholics Anonymous)

Bobby L

Darren

08-18-2005, 05:47 AM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:TaSMe.22506$Rm3.13532@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:8HRMe.8000$9b6.1688@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> > I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest that
> > really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can take
> time
> > to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm
> sharing
> > bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
>
> I was told it was less about getting things off my chest and more about
> finding out why they were there to begin with, but I got that from another
> alcoholic, too.
>
> http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/
> http://www.m-w.com
>
> Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others
had
> done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.
well if we are to forget tha past then the past is forgotten. though its an
ongoing thing. I've just added another resentment to my list.

>Where had we been selfish,
> dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
Well I don't know about you but not all my resentments are my fault.
Selfish? who isn't? dishhonest? who isn't? self seeking? already covered by
selfish. :). Frightened? definately.
>Though a situation had not been
> entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved
> entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other
> man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us in
> black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set
> these matters straight."
> (from Chap 5, Alcoholics Anonymous)
Absoluetely. And where my gripes are my fault have been listed. What makes
you think they haven't?

Darren
>
> Bobby L
>
>

rockhound

08-18-2005, 08:34 AM

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:41:24 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
wrote:

>
>"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
>news:1124328217.540ffe208c927249391bd00c49e90c5d@t eranews...
>> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:06:11 -0400, "Bobby L"
>> <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> >news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >>
>> >> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> >> news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> >> > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
>> >> > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> >> > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
>> >provide
>> >> > > > > ourselves
>> >> > > > > > > with
>> >> > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will
>> >make
>> >> > us
>> >> > > > > happy.
>> >> > > > > > A
>> >> > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend
>every
>> >> spare
>> >> > > > > moment
>> >> > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality
>so
>> >> > that
>> >> > > we
>> >> > > > > > can't
>> >> > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
>> >> > > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if
>> >only
>> >> I
>> >> > > > could
>> >> > > > > > tell
>> >> > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
>> >> > > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > > Poe
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was
>still
>> >> the
>> >> > > > same
>> >> > > > > > > scary
>> >> > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change
>> >the
>> >> > > world,
>> >> > > > > > > change
>> >> > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
>> >because
>> >> > the
>> >> > > > only
>> >> > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to
>bash
>> >> each
>> >> > > > other
>> >> > > > > > > over
>> >> > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is
>> >that
>> >> > they
>> >> > > > > used
>> >> > > > > > > > clubs,
>> >> > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > > Darren
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > > Bobby L
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > > Darren
>> >> > > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
>> >> > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > Darren
>> >> > > > >
>> >> > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only
>difference
>> >> > > between
>> >> > > > us
>> >> > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the head
>to
>> >> > steal
>> >> > > > each
>> >> > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we use
>> >pens,
>> >> > > > > solcitors
>> >> > > > > > and bailiffs."
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > > Bobby L
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
>> >> > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and parts
>of
>> >it
>> >> > are
>> >> > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Darren
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Bobby L
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?" For
>a
>> >> > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I was
>> >> > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
>> >>
>> >> Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that
>passage
>> >> in rahter than the abbreviated version?
>> >>
>> >> Darren
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Bobby L
>> >> >
>> >
>> >Darren,
>> >
>> >My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the Big
>> >Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
>> >
>> >Bobby L
>>
>> I advise to the contrary. Shocking things may be revealed. Oblivion
>> not so bad after all.
>
>I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest that
>really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can take time
>to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm sharing
>bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
>
>Darren
>

About atonement, making peace with ourselves, our fellows, our
creator, 'man know thyself' - we resentfully focus on the wrongs
others have done in order to avoid looking at our own - to achieve
sobriety the alcoholic must drop blame from speech and thought - we
resolutely look for our own mistakes, where were we at fault... (see
Bobby's post...)

Nothing counts but thoroughness and honesty.

Personally, my worst items in stock i'm still sharing only with ghosts
and corpses - the 'no one must ever know' stuff. Praying for my pen
and inner eye not to falter, strength and courage to go through with
this process and there is no other motive than to save my sorry f'n
ass.

Family member? not on your life.

good luck,
rockhound

--------
Many of the above words should have been all caps.

Darren

08-18-2005, 01:24 PM

"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:1124372080.64ccf77dc09a5c656082629973438203@t eranews...
> On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:41:24 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
> >news:1124328217.540ffe208c927249391bd00c49e90c5d@t eranews...
> >> On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 18:06:11 -0400, "Bobby L"
> >> <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:PovLe.6097$9b6.3465@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >>
> >> >> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> >> news:Z1nLe.8508$XL3.4294@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:vmlLe.5837$9b6.3360@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > > news:F5vKe.1000$XM3.501@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > news:FJ0Ke.598$4y6.496@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > > news:x1VJe.4143$7p.1423@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > > > news:dASJe.25457$Oe4.14531@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > > > > news:JlRJe.507$Kp.270@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > > > > > news:kNGJe.3890$jv2.1817@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > "Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > > > > > > > > news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > We all for the most part go to work everyday to
> >> >provide
> >> >> > > > > ourselves
> >> >> > > > > > > with
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > sustenance, shelter and the things that we think
will
> >> >make
> >> >> > us
> >> >> > > > > happy.
> >> >> > > > > > A
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend
> >every
> >> >> spare
> >> >> > > > > moment
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of
reality
> >so
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > > we
> >> >> > > > > > can't
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > experience any of it.
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Its funny how perception changes with sobriety,
if
> >> >only
> >> >> I
> >> >> > > > could
> >> >> > > > > > tell
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > the others, would they listen?
> >> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Poe
> >> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was
> >still
> >> >> the
> >> >> > > > same
> >> >> > > > > > > scary
> >> >> > > > > > > > > place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't
change
> >> >the
> >> >> > > world,
> >> >> > > > > > > change
> >> >> > > > > > > > > with the world". Well I despise the civilised world
> >> >because
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > > > only
> >> >> > > > > > > > > difference between us and the ancestors that used to
> >bash
> >> >> each
> >> >> > > > other
> >> >> > > > > > > over
> >> >> > > > > > > > > the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc
is
> >> >that
> >> >> > they
> >> >> > > > > used
> >> >> > > > > > > > clubs,
> >> >> > > > > > > > > we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> >> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > > Darren
> >> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > So how's that fourth step coming along?
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > > Bobby L
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > Just finished it last week. Thanks for asking.
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > > Darren
> >> >> > > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > Was any of this included in your fourth step?
> >> >> > > > > Yes, but an abbreviated version.
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > Darren
> >> >> > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > "Well I despise the civilised world because the only
> >difference
> >> >> > > between
> >> >> > > > us
> >> >> > > > > > and the ancestors that used to bash each other over the
head
> >to
> >> >> > steal
> >> >> > > > each
> >> >> > > > > > others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs, we
use
> >> >pens,
> >> >> > > > > solcitors
> >> >> > > > > > and bailiffs."
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > > Bobby L
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Really.................Do you read the big book much Darren?
> >> >> > > I have it in audio format which i occasionally listen to and
parts
> >of
> >> >it
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > > read at almost every meeting so i pretty much hear a lot of it.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Darren
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > > Bobby L
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Did you hear that part about "half-measures availed us nothing?"
For
> >a
> >> >> > while, I thought half in would get me half out. Oddly enough, I
was
> >> >> > mistaken... half in got me nothing.
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes I heard that. Why? Do you think i should put the whole of that
> >passage
> >> >> in rahter than the abbreviated version?
> >> >>
> >> >> Darren
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bobby L
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Darren,
> >> >
> >> >My recommendation/suggestion is you work step 4 as it outlined in the
Big
> >> >Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.
> >> >
> >> >Bobby L
> >>
> >> I advise to the contrary. Shocking things may be revealed. Oblivion
> >> not so bad after all.
> >
> >I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest that
> >really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can take
time
> >to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm
sharing
> >bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
> >
> >Darren
> >
>
>
> About atonement, making peace with ourselves, our fellows, our
> creator, 'man know thyself' - we resentfully focus on the wrongs
> others have done in order to avoid looking at our own - to achieve
> sobriety the alcoholic must drop blame from speech and thought - we
> resolutely look for our own mistakes, where were we at fault... (see
> Bobby's post...)

Looking for where we were at fault isn't dropping the blame, it's directing
it at ourselves and blaoming myself for everything including what's the
fault of other people isn't going to help me one iota.
>
> Nothing counts but thoroughness and honesty.

My step 4 is certainly honest and thorough.
>
> Personally, my worst items in stock i'm still sharing only with ghosts
> and corpses - the 'no one must ever know' stuff. Praying for my pen
> and inner eye not to falter, strength and courage to go through with
> this process and there is no other motive than to save my sorry f'n
> ass.
Pardon?
>
> Family member? not on your life.
Yes, one who understands. one who knows me and knows most of these points
anyway.
>
>
> good luck,
> rockhound

Cheers

Darren
>
> --------
> Many of the above words should have been all caps.

Bobby L

08-18-2005, 06:16 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:FGZMe.7610$4y6.5905@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:TaSMe.22506$Rm3.13532@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:8HRMe.8000$9b6.1688@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
> > > I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest that
> > > really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can
take
> > time
> > > to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm
> > sharing
> > > bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
> > >
> > > Darren
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I was told it was less about getting things off my chest and more about
> > finding out why they were there to begin with, but I got that from
another
> > alcoholic, too.
> >
> > http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/
> > http://www.m-w.com
> >
> > Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs others
> had
> > done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.
> well if we are to forget tha past then the past is forgotten. though its
an
> ongoing thing. I've just added another resentment to my list.
>
> >Where had we been selfish,
> > dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
> Well I don't know about you but not all my resentments are my fault.
> Selfish? who isn't? dishhonest? who isn't? self seeking? already covered
by
> selfish. :). Frightened? definately.
> >Though a situation had not been
> > entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved
> > entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the other
> > man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us
in
> > black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to set
> > these matters straight."
> > (from Chap 5, Alcoholics Anonymous)
> Absoluetely. And where my gripes are my fault have been listed. What makes
> you think they haven't?
>
> Darren
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >
>

Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my fault.... I listed
them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell the true
from the false. This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my resentments
were/are my fault.
It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just taking
stock. Fear will keep the list short.

Bobby L

someone in need

08-18-2005, 08:43 PM

>Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
>I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my fault.... I listed
>them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell the true
>from the false. This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
>While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my resentments
>were/are my fault.
>It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just taking
>stock. Fear will keep the list short.
>
>
>Bobby L
>
>
>

Hopefully the more insight one gains, along with regaining control of
ones own life, confidence is bolsered. Perhaps you can build on this
new found confidence and your will to own your life again.

Great to hear stories of recovery.

I too am in recovery even as a family member, with great thanks to
Alanon.

" IN MY DREAMS I WAS DROWNING IN MY
SORROW...........................BUT MY SORROWS THEY LEARNED TO SWIM"

someone in need

08-18-2005, 08:56 PM

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:49:52 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
wrote:

>
>"Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide ourselves with
>> sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us happy. A
>> nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare moment
>> numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we can't
>> experience any of it.
>>
>> Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I could tell
>> the others, would they listen?
>>
>> Poe
>
>When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the same scary
>place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world, change
>with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the only
>difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each other over
>the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they used clubs,
>we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
>
>Darren
>

Funny you should mention those things. It was the alcoholic males
trying to do what you say; to my wife.

It was the alcoholic friends USING her as a taxi service and to pay
THEIR bar tabs.

It was the alcoholic friends that tried to get maximum economic gain
from her. Believe me, no tactic was too low for them.

So you best rethink that theory of civilization

Peace

Darren

08-19-2005, 06:24 AM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:nG8Ne.15012$xW.6215@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:FGZMe.7610$4y6.5905@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:TaSMe.22506$Rm3.13532@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:8HRMe.8000$9b6.1688@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > > > I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest
that
> > > > really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can
> take
> > > time
> > > > to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5 I'm
> > > sharing
> > > > bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I was told it was less about getting things off my chest and more
about
> > > finding out why they were there to begin with, but I got that from
> another
> > > alcoholic, too.
> > >
> > > http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/
> > > http://www.m-w.com
> > >
> > > Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs
others
> > had
> > > done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.
> > well if we are to forget tha past then the past is forgotten. though its
> an
> > ongoing thing. I've just added another resentment to my list.
> >
> > >Where had we been selfish,
> > > dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
> > Well I don't know about you but not all my resentments are my fault.
> > Selfish? who isn't? dishhonest? who isn't? self seeking? already covered
> by
> > selfish. :). Frightened? definately.
> > >Though a situation had not been
> > > entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved
> > > entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the
other
> > > man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before us
> in
> > > black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to
set
> > > these matters straight."
> > > (from Chap 5, Alcoholics Anonymous)
> > Absoluetely. And where my gripes are my fault have been listed. What
makes
> > you think they haven't?
> >
> > Darren
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my fault.... I
listed
> them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell the true
> from the false.

It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.

>This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my resentments
> were/are my fault.
very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this turn into a
fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it alll better.
> It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just taking
> stock. Fear will keep the list short.
My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told only to
include resentments directly involving me.
>
Darren
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>
>

Darren

08-19-2005, 06:27 AM

"someone in need" <nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:4keag1dcgoq5kqhvm43v3dkam2v0qksg0m@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:49:52 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> >news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide ourselves
with
> >> sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us happy. A
> >> nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare moment
> >> numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we can't
> >> experience any of it.
> >>
> >> Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I could tell
> >> the others, would they listen?
> >>
> >> Poe
> >
> >When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the same scary
> >place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world, change
> >with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the only
> >difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each other over
> >the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they used
clubs,
> >we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> >
> >Darren
> >
>
>
> Funny you should mention those things. It was the alcoholic males
> trying to do what you say; to my wife.
>
> It was the alcoholic friends USING her as a taxi service and to pay
> THEIR bar tabs.
>
> It was the alcoholic friends that tried to get maximum economic gain
> from her. Believe me, no tactic was too low for them.
>
>
> So you best rethink that theory of civilization

Why? You just proved what i said. This so called civilised culture sucks.

Darren
>
> Peace

someone in need

08-19-2005, 11:56 AM

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:27:15 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
wrote:

>
>"someone in need" <nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote in message
>news:4keag1dcgoq5kqhvm43v3dkam2v0qksg0m@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:49:52 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
>> >news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> >> We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide ourselves
>with
>> >> sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us happy. A
>> >> nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare moment
>> >> numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we can't
>> >> experience any of it.
>> >>
>> >> Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I could tell
>> >> the others, would they listen?
>> >>
>> >> Poe
>> >
>> >When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the same scary
>> >place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world, change
>> >with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the only
>> >difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each other over
>> >the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they used
>clubs,
>> >we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
>> >
>> >Darren
>> >
>>
>>
>> Funny you should mention those things. It was the alcoholic males
>> trying to do what you say; to my wife.
>>
>> It was the alcoholic friends USING her as a taxi service and to pay
>> THEIR bar tabs.
>>
>> It was the alcoholic friends that tried to get maximum economic gain
>> from her. Believe me, no tactic was too low for them.
>>
>>
>> So you best rethink that theory of civilization
>
>Why? You just proved what i said. This so called civilised culture sucks.
>
>Darren
>>
>> Peace
>

Above you said alcohol numbed your perception of the world. I assume
you were referring to the non intoxicated world? Were you referring
to the alcoholic world?

Darren

08-19-2005, 12:25 PM

"someone in need" <nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:hn3cg1p0mgnhmrj7fatmef6fvv6di44eae@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:27:15 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"someone in need" <nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote in message
> >news:4keag1dcgoq5kqhvm43v3dkam2v0qksg0m@4ax.com...
> >> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 10:49:52 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Poe" <Poe34@mail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:LIvJe.486$6d4.145520@news20.bellglobal.com...
> >> >> We all for the most part go to work everyday to provide ourselves
> >with
> >> >> sustenance, shelter and the things that we think will make us happy.
A
> >> >> nice car, bigger house, a cottage and then spend every spare moment
> >> >> numbing ourselves and distorting our sense of reality so that we
can't
> >> >> experience any of it.
> >> >>
> >> >> Its funny how perception changes with sobriety, if only I could
tell
> >> >> the others, would they listen?
> >> >>
> >> >> Poe
> >> >
> >> >When I sobered up I found the 'ciivilised' world was still the same
scary
> >> >place I drank to hide from. Someone said, "don't change the world,
change
> >> >with the world". Well I despise the civilised world because the only
> >> >difference between us and the ancestors that used to bash each other
over
> >> >the head to steal each others wifes, possesions etc is that they used
> >clubs,
> >> >we use pens, solcitors and bailiffs.
> >> >
> >> >Darren
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Funny you should mention those things. It was the alcoholic males
> >> trying to do what you say; to my wife.
> >>
> >> It was the alcoholic friends USING her as a taxi service and to pay
> >> THEIR bar tabs.
> >>
> >> It was the alcoholic friends that tried to get maximum economic gain
> >> from her. Believe me, no tactic was too low for them.
> >>
> >>
> >> So you best rethink that theory of civilization
> >
> >Why? You just proved what i said. This so called civilised culture
sucks.
> >
> >Darren
> >>
> >> Peace
> >
>
> Above you said alcohol numbed your perception of the world. I assume
> you were referring to the non intoxicated world? Were you referring
> to the alcoholic world?

No. the real one though the drunken one suck too.

Darren

Bobby L

08-19-2005, 05:27 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:WjjNe.4099$Ht5.2095@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:nG8Ne.15012$xW.6215@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:FGZMe.7610$4y6.5905@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:TaSMe.22506$Rm3.13532@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > > >
> > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:8HRMe.8000$9b6.1688@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > > > I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your chest
> that
> > > > > really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you can
> > take
> > > > time
> > > > > to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5
I'm
> > > > sharing
> > > > > bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
> > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I was told it was less about getting things off my chest and more
> about
> > > > finding out why they were there to begin with, but I got that from
> > another
> > > > alcoholic, too.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/
> > > > http://www.m-w.com
> > > >
> > > > Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs
> others
> > > had
> > > > done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.
> > > well if we are to forget tha past then the past is forgotten. though
its
> > an
> > > ongoing thing. I've just added another resentment to my list.
> > >
> > > >Where had we been selfish,
> > > > dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
> > > Well I don't know about you but not all my resentments are my fault.
> > > Selfish? who isn't? dishhonest? who isn't? self seeking? already
covered
> > by
> > > selfish. :). Frightened? definately.
> > > >Though a situation had not been
> > > > entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person involved
> > > > entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the
> other
> > > > man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them before
us
> > in
> > > > black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing to
> set
> > > > these matters straight."
> > > > (from Chap 5, Alcoholics Anonymous)
> > > Absoluetely. And where my gripes are my fault have been listed. What
> makes
> > > you think they haven't?
> > >
> > > Darren
> > > >
> > > > Bobby L
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my fault.... I
> listed
> > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell the true
> > from the false.
>
> It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
>
> >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my resentments
> > were/are my fault.
> very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this turn into
a
> fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it alll better.
> > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just taking
> > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told only to
> include resentments directly involving me.
> >
> Darren
> >
> > Bobby L
> >

"Not your fault.... directly involve me....."

I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the resentment...
it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I am directly
involved. After all, it is my resentment.

Bobby L

Darren

08-20-2005, 06:09 AM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:13tNe.411$ZD4.223@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:WjjNe.4099$Ht5.2095@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:nG8Ne.15012$xW.6215@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:FGZMe.7610$4y6.5905@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:TaSMe.22506$Rm3.13532@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > > > >
> > > > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:8HRMe.8000$9b6.1688@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > > > I thought the point of step 4 is to get the things off your
chest
> > that
> > > > > > really piss you off. its a good idea in my opinion because you
can
> > > take
> > > > > time
> > > > > > to do some quite in-depth soul searching. though with my step 5
> I'm
> > > > > sharing
> > > > > > bit by bit with a very close family member. :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Darren
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I was told it was less about getting things off my chest and more
> > about
> > > > > finding out why they were there to begin with, but I got that from
> > > another
> > > > > alcoholic, too.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.nokama.com/bigbook/
> > > > > http://www.m-w.com
> > > > >
> > > > > Referring to our list again. Putting out of our minds the wrongs
> > others
> > > > had
> > > > > done, we resolutely looked for our own mistakes.
> > > > well if we are to forget tha past then the past is forgotten. though
> its
> > > an
> > > > ongoing thing. I've just added another resentment to my list.
> > > >
> > > > >Where had we been selfish,
> > > > > dishonest, self-seeking and frightened?
> > > > Well I don't know about you but not all my resentments are my fault.
> > > > Selfish? who isn't? dishhonest? who isn't? self seeking? already
> covered
> > > by
> > > > selfish. :). Frightened? definately.
> > > > >Though a situation had not been
> > > > > entirely our fault, we tried to disregard the other person
involved
> > > > > entirely. Where were we to blame? The inventory was ours, not the
> > other
> > > > > man's. When we saw our faults we listed them. We placed them
before
> us
> > > in
> > > > > black and white. We admitted our wrongs honestly and were willing
to
> > set
> > > > > these matters straight."
> > > > > (from Chap 5, Alcoholics Anonymous)
> > > > Absoluetely. And where my gripes are my fault have been listed. What
> > makes
> > > > you think they haven't?
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > > Bobby L
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my fault.... I
> > listed
> > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell the
true
> > > from the false.
> >
> > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> >
> > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my
resentments
> > > were/are my fault.
> > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this turn
into
> a
> > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it alll
better.
> > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just
taking
> > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told only to
> > include resentments directly involving me.
> > >
> > Darren
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
>
>
> "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
>
> I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the resentment...
> it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I am
directly
> involved. After all, it is my resentment.
I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
things i resent involve me directly.

Darren
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>

rockhound

08-20-2005, 08:45 AM

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:09:25 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
wrote:
>I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
>things i resent involve me directly.
>
>Darren

Hi Darren -

AA theory runs roughly that selfishness is the root of all our
troubles, alcoholics being extreme examples of self-will run riot,
alcoholism being but a symptom of this deeper underlying spiritual
disorder.

A square look at self is difficult at best, and pretty much impossible
on regular days. We are blindly driven by a hundred forms of
self-concerned motives, and becoming willing to look at _resentments_
as a starting point from the whole new angle outlined in that certain
AA book will shed a remarkable light on some critical twists. We are
pots insisting kettles be black, unwilling to accept responsibility
for our selves as we are, the vital element of humility the alcoholic
so desperately requires in order to live at all, based on _AA_
experience, remains out of reach.

As AA has it, the business of resentment is infinitely grave, and if
their experience and hard won insight proves to be correct, and if you
wish to make use of what they have to offer, it might be wise to get
yourself a copy of that book [they] wrote and make sure you haven't
been misguided by your sponsor[s], and you know what you're about.

I personally have my doubts based on personal experience that i'd be
as satisfactorily sober today had i not become willing to face some
very unpleasant truths about myself. I am beginning, though, to see
the usefulness of these probes, but i am equally sure i have a very
long way to go.

If you're following a modernized version, good luck. Many folks do
find enough sobriety, peace and purpose following all sorts of paths.

Have a nice day.

-----------
I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
can't even look my dog in the eye...
-----------
"We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
not pleasant to look upon..."

Bobby L

08-20-2005, 09:13 AM

<snipped for size>\
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my fault....
I
> > > listed
> > > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell the
> true
> > > > from the false.
> > >
> > > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> > >
> > > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my
> resentments
> > > > were/are my fault.
> > > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this turn
> into
> > a
> > > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it alll
> better.
> > > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just
> taking
> > > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told only to
> > > include resentments directly involving me.
> > > >
> > > Darren
> > > >
> > > > Bobby L
> > > >
> >
> >
> > "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
> >
> > I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the
resentment...
> > it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I am
> directly
> > involved. After all, it is my resentment.
> I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
> things i resent involve me directly.
>
> Darren
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >

Darren,

While it is true not "all" my problems were of my own making -- how I
reacted to them was. No one else has control over my feelings and
reactions. For that, I am responsible. While you say all the things you
resent to not directly involve you -- the resentment itself it yours and
yours alone -- just as my resentments are mine and mine alone.

Bobby L

Darren

08-20-2005, 01:00 PM

"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:s0beg1tqavl5i5atmnh1jp3nmf0781p75i@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:09:25 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> wrote:
> >I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
> >things i resent involve me directly.
> >
> >Darren
>
> Hi Darren -
>
> AA theory runs roughly that selfishness is the root of all our
> troubles, alcoholics being extreme examples of self-will run riot,
> alcoholism being but a symptom of this deeper underlying spiritual
> disorder.
>
> A square look at self is difficult at best, and pretty much impossible
> on regular days. We are blindly driven by a hundred forms of
> self-concerned motives, and becoming willing to look at _resentments_
> as a starting point from the whole new angle outlined in that certain
> AA book will shed a remarkable light on some critical twists. We are
> pots insisting kettles be black, unwilling to accept responsibility
> for our selves as we are, the vital element of humility the alcoholic
> so desperately requires in order to live at all, based on _AA_
> experience, remains out of reach.
>
> As AA has it, the business of resentment is infinitely grave, and if
> their experience and hard won insight proves to be correct, and if you
> wish to make use of what they have to offer, it might be wise to get
> yourself a copy of that book [they] wrote and make sure you haven't
> been misguided by your sponsor[s], and you know what you're about.
>
> I personally have my doubts based on personal experience that i'd be
> as satisfactorily sober today had i not become willing to face some
> very unpleasant truths about myself. I am beginning, though, to see
> the usefulness of these probes, but i am equally sure i have a very
> long way to go.
>
> If you're following a modernized version, good luck. Many folks do
> find enough sobriety, peace and purpose following all sorts of paths.
>
> Have a nice day.
The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar all
alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western Europs
was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact some
are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look for
other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual side
to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
would be a bad move in my opinion.

BTW I like your sig. :)

Darren
>
> -----------
> I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
> can't even look my dog in the eye...
> -----------
> "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
> again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
> not pleasant to look upon..."

Darren

08-20-2005, 01:04 PM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yVGNe.27921$Rm3.20648@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> <snipped for size>\
> > > > >
> > > > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my
fault....
> I
> > > > listed
> > > > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell
the
> > true
> > > > > from the false.
> > > >
> > > > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> > > >
> > > > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my
> > resentments
> > > > > were/are my fault.
> > > > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this
turn
> > into
> > > a
> > > > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it alll
> > better.
> > > > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's just
> > taking
> > > > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > > > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told only
to
> > > > include resentments directly involving me.
> > > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > > Bobby L
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
> > >
> > > I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the
> resentment...
> > > it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I am
> > directly
> > > involved. After all, it is my resentment.
> > I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
> > things i resent involve me directly.
> >
> > Darren
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
> > >
>
> Darren,
>
> While it is true not "all" my problems were of my own making -- how I
> reacted to them was. No one else has control over my feelings and
> reactions. For that, I am responsible. While you say all the things you
> resent to not directly involve you -- the resentment itself it yours and
> yours alone -- just as my resentments are mine and mine alone.

If you have control over your feelings then you are a better man than I. I
can't control my feelings and I certainly don't feel I have to apologise for
them mind you if i could then that would be awesome though not guaruenteed a
good thing.

Darren.
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>

someone in need

08-20-2005, 02:11 PM

>The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar all
>alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western Europs
>was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
>know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact some
>are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
>alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look for
>other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual side
>to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
>would be a bad move in my opinion.
>
>BTW I like your sig. :)
>
>Darren
>>
>> -----------
>> I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
>> can't even look my dog in the eye...
>> -----------
>> "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
>> again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
>> not pleasant to look upon..."
>

The alcoholic in my lif(pre-drinking) was the most unselfish, kindest
and giving person I have ever known.

It is the effect etoh has on her brain that has made her a selfish,
self centered, little God, as the saying goes.

It seems much of what AA says is consistent with what would occur in
psychotherapy.

"don't say that later will be better, now you're stuck in a moment,
and you CAN get out of it"

stuart

08-20-2005, 02:51 PM

Darren <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:XcKNe.11202$bf6.11129@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
> news:s0beg1tqavl5i5atmnh1jp3nmf0781p75i@4ax.com...
> > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:09:25 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> > wrote:
> > >I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
> > >things i resent involve me directly.
> > >
> > >Darren
> >
> > Hi Darren -
> >
> > AA theory runs roughly that selfishness is the root of all our
> > troubles, alcoholics being extreme examples of self-will run riot,
> > alcoholism being but a symptom of this deeper underlying spiritual
> > disorder.
> >
> > A square look at self is difficult at best, and pretty much impossible
> > on regular days. We are blindly driven by a hundred forms of
> > self-concerned motives, and becoming willing to look at _resentments_
> > as a starting point from the whole new angle outlined in that certain
> > AA book will shed a remarkable light on some critical twists. We are
> > pots insisting kettles be black, unwilling to accept responsibility
> > for our selves as we are, the vital element of humility the alcoholic
> > so desperately requires in order to live at all, based on _AA_
> > experience, remains out of reach.
> >
> > As AA has it, the business of resentment is infinitely grave, and if
> > their experience and hard won insight proves to be correct, and if you
> > wish to make use of what they have to offer, it might be wise to get
> > yourself a copy of that book [they] wrote and make sure you haven't
> > been misguided by your sponsor[s], and you know what you're about.
> >
> > I personally have my doubts based on personal experience that i'd be
> > as satisfactorily sober today had i not become willing to face some
> > very unpleasant truths about myself. I am beginning, though, to see
> > the usefulness of these probes, but i am equally sure i have a very
> > long way to go.
> >
> > If you're following a modernized version, good luck. Many folks do
> > find enough sobriety, peace and purpose following all sorts of paths.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar all
> alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western
Europs
> was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
> know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact some
> are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
> alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look for
> other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual side
> to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
> would be a bad move in my opinion.
>
> BTW I like your sig. :)
>
> Darren

Funny you make the astute observation that some alcoholics are seemingly far
less selfish and my opinion is that is indeed sometimes true. But, in the BB
it talks about the actor becoming even "more demanding or gracious, as the
case may be". Some of the more people pleasing types actually appear much
less selfish than others as first glance, but are they really?

> >
> > -----------
> > I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
> > can't even look my dog in the eye...
> > -----------
> > "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
> > again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
> > not pleasant to look upon..."
>
>

Bobby L

08-20-2005, 03:21 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:KgKNe.11203$bf6.2042@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:yVGNe.27921$Rm3.20648@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > <snipped for size>\
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > > > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my
> fault....
> > I
> > > > > listed
> > > > > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to tell
> the
> > > true
> > > > > > from the false.
> > > > >
> > > > > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> > > > >
> > > > > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > > > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my
> > > resentments
> > > > > > were/are my fault.
> > > > > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this
> turn
> > > into
> > > > a
> > > > > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it alll
> > > better.
> > > > > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's
just
> > > taking
> > > > > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > > > > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told
only
> to
> > > > > include resentments directly involving me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
> > > >
> > > > I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the
> > resentment...
> > > > it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I am
> > > directly
> > > > involved. After all, it is my resentment.
> > > I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
> > > things i resent involve me directly.
> > >
> > > Darren
> > > >
> > > > Bobby L
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > Darren,
> >
> > While it is true not "all" my problems were of my own making -- how I
> > reacted to them was. No one else has control over my feelings and
> > reactions. For that, I am responsible. While you say all the things
you
> > resent to not directly involve you -- the resentment itself it yours and
> > yours alone -- just as my resentments are mine and mine alone.
>
> If you have control over your feelings then you are a better man than I. I
> can't control my feelings and I certainly don't feel I have to apologise
for
> them mind you if i could then that would be awesome though not guaruenteed
a
> good thing.
>
> Darren.
> >

That's too bad. My experience has been that as long as one feels that way,
there is no sense in going any further. The program of recovery outlined in
the Big Book is unlikely to work for you. If you feel you are not
responsible for your feelings and resentments then it's a short walk to not
be responsible for your actions. Now there are a lot of people who might
tell you they are responsible for their actions, but they are not
responsible for their feelings/resentments -- my experience has found that
to be, not a conscious lie, but a wonderful pre-emptive justification. As
soon as they do something to hurt another person, the instant (pre-planned)
response is "it's not my fault."

It's not abnormal - nor is it limited to alcoholics. Of course, most people
are not using it as an excuse to die from a deadly disease -- that seems to
limited to alcoholics and others of the same ilk. Until we were willing to
accept we were not like other people, we could not come to accept that we
would NEVER be able to drink like others. Every person I have ever met in
the meeting rooms and elsewhere who believed that one day they would be able
to drink like others, eventually -- everyone of them -- went to find out. I
have yet to hear of one alcoholic that was successful in proving they could
drink like a non-alcoholic.

I might be wrong here, but I am hearing a lack of willingness to be honest -
not with any of us - but with yourself. You might try rational recovery or
SMART. I don't think either of those recovery programs require the
"housecleaning" outlined in the Big Book, which you are unwilling to
proceed.
The program of recovery outlined in the Big Book works, but only if you work
it the way it says to work it. Many will tell you this program is not for
those who need it, but for those who want it. That's Bullshit! The AA
program of recovery is for those who work it. If wanting was enough, we
wouldn't be alcoholics.

If I tried to convince you that this program works halfway, it would be
dishonest to you and dishonest to me. Fact is, this program is not the
answer for everyone. It was never meant to be.

Bobby L

Darren

08-20-2005, 04:55 PM

"someone in need" <nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:3fveg1h2r950agl1ofv1lo4cu19eduv7af@4ax.com...
>
> >The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar
all
> >alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western
Europs
> >was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
> >know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact some
> >are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
> >alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look for
> >other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual
side
> >to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
> >would be a bad move in my opinion.
> >
> >BTW I like your sig. :)
> >
> >Darren
> >>
> >> -----------
> >> I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
> >> can't even look my dog in the eye...
> >> -----------
> >> "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
> >> again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
> >> not pleasant to look upon..."
> >
>
>
> The alcoholic in my lif(pre-drinking) was the most unselfish, kindest
> and giving person I have ever known.
>
> It is the effect etoh has on her brain that has made her a selfish,
> self centered, little God, as the saying goes.
>
> It seems much of what AA says is consistent with what would occur in
> psychotherapy.
Well it's amazing what booze can turn a person into.

Darren
>
>
> "don't say that later will be better, now you're stuck in a moment,
> and you CAN get out of it"

Darren

08-20-2005, 05:01 PM

"stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:nRLNe.231787$on1.211132@clgrps13...
>
> Darren <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:XcKNe.11202$bf6.11129@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
> > news:s0beg1tqavl5i5atmnh1jp3nmf0781p75i@4ax.com...
> > > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:09:25 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> > > wrote:
> > > >I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not
all
> > > >things i resent involve me directly.
> > > >
> > > >Darren
> > >
> > > Hi Darren -
> > >
> > > AA theory runs roughly that selfishness is the root of all our
> > > troubles, alcoholics being extreme examples of self-will run riot,
> > > alcoholism being but a symptom of this deeper underlying spiritual
> > > disorder.
> > >
> > > A square look at self is difficult at best, and pretty much impossible
> > > on regular days. We are blindly driven by a hundred forms of
> > > self-concerned motives, and becoming willing to look at _resentments_
> > > as a starting point from the whole new angle outlined in that certain
> > > AA book will shed a remarkable light on some critical twists. We are
> > > pots insisting kettles be black, unwilling to accept responsibility
> > > for our selves as we are, the vital element of humility the alcoholic
> > > so desperately requires in order to live at all, based on _AA_
> > > experience, remains out of reach.
> > >
> > > As AA has it, the business of resentment is infinitely grave, and if
> > > their experience and hard won insight proves to be correct, and if you
> > > wish to make use of what they have to offer, it might be wise to get
> > > yourself a copy of that book [they] wrote and make sure you haven't
> > > been misguided by your sponsor[s], and you know what you're about.
> > >
> > > I personally have my doubts based on personal experience that i'd be
> > > as satisfactorily sober today had i not become willing to face some
> > > very unpleasant truths about myself. I am beginning, though, to see
> > > the usefulness of these probes, but i am equally sure i have a very
> > > long way to go.
> > >
> > > If you're following a modernized version, good luck. Many folks do
> > > find enough sobriety, peace and purpose following all sorts of paths.
> > >
> > > Have a nice day.
> > The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar
all
> > alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western
> Europs
> > was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
> > know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact
some
> > are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
> > alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look for
> > other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual
side
> > to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
> > would be a bad move in my opinion.
> >
> > BTW I like your sig. :)
> >
> > Darren
>
> Funny you make the astute observation that some alcoholics are seemingly
far
> less selfish and my opinion is that is indeed sometimes true. But, in the
BB
> it talks about the actor becoming even "more demanding or gracious, as the
> case may be". Some of the more people pleasing types actually appear much
> less selfish than others as first glance, but are they really?
That's not the point. The point is I don't go for the "every alcoholic is an
alcoholic because he/she is selfish" point of view. Perople are generally
selfish and I see no more selfishness in alcoholics than anyone else.
Perhaps the authors of BB were surrounded by selfish slcoholics and that
coloured their view. The alcoholics I know are no more selfish than any
none-alcoholics I know.

Darren
>
> > >
> > > -----------
> > > I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
> > > can't even look my dog in the eye...
> > > -----------
> > > "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
> > > again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
> > > not pleasant to look upon..."
> >
> >
>
>

someone in need

08-20-2005, 09:17 PM

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:51:47 GMT, "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote:

>
>Darren <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
>news:XcKNe.11202$bf6.11129@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>> "rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
>> news:s0beg1tqavl5i5atmnh1jp3nmf0781p75i@4ax.com...
>> > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:09:25 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
>> > wrote:
>> > >I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not all
>> > >things i resent involve me directly.
>> > >
>> > >Darren
>> >
>> > Hi Darren -
>> >
>> > AA theory runs roughly that selfishness is the root of all our
>> > troubles, alcoholics being extreme examples of self-will run riot,
>> > alcoholism being but a symptom of this deeper underlying spiritual
>> > disorder.
>> >
>> > A square look at self is difficult at best, and pretty much impossible
>> > on regular days. We are blindly driven by a hundred forms of
>> > self-concerned motives, and becoming willing to look at _resentments_
>> > as a starting point from the whole new angle outlined in that certain
>> > AA book will shed a remarkable light on some critical twists. We are
>> > pots insisting kettles be black, unwilling to accept responsibility
>> > for our selves as we are, the vital element of humility the alcoholic
>> > so desperately requires in order to live at all, based on _AA_
>> > experience, remains out of reach.
>> >
>> > As AA has it, the business of resentment is infinitely grave, and if
>> > their experience and hard won insight proves to be correct, and if you
>> > wish to make use of what they have to offer, it might be wise to get
>> > yourself a copy of that book [they] wrote and make sure you haven't
>> > been misguided by your sponsor[s], and you know what you're about.
>> >
>> > I personally have my doubts based on personal experience that i'd be
>> > as satisfactorily sober today had i not become willing to face some
>> > very unpleasant truths about myself. I am beginning, though, to see
>> > the usefulness of these probes, but i am equally sure i have a very
>> > long way to go.
>> >
>> > If you're following a modernized version, good luck. Many folks do
>> > find enough sobriety, peace and purpose following all sorts of paths.
>> >
>> > Have a nice day.
>> The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar all
>> alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western
>Europs
>> was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
>> know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact some
>> are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
>> alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look for
>> other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual side
>> to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
>> would be a bad move in my opinion.
>>
>> BTW I like your sig. :)
>>
>> Darren
>
>Funny you make the astute observation that some alcoholics are seemingly far
>less selfish and my opinion is that is indeed sometimes true. But, in the BB
>it talks about the actor becoming even "more demanding or gracious, as the
>case may be". Some of the more people pleasing types actually appear much
>less selfish than others as first glance, but are they really?
>
>> >
>> > -----------
>> > I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
>> > can't even look my dog in the eye...
>> > -----------
>> > "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
>> > again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
>> > not pleasant to look upon..."
>>
>>
>
>

The alcoholic in my life was akin to Teresa of Calcutta. Alcohol
turned her into a self centered, selfish, in grateful, obnoxious
"little God"

It also seems to have lowered her self esteem as the external
appearance is now an obsessions.

Alcohol also hurt her ability to smell as she bathes in perfume to eh
point where you cannot be close to her without being overpowered.

Darren

08-20-2005, 09:40 PM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ViMNe.17608$xW.5458@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:KgKNe.11203$bf6.2042@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:yVGNe.27921$Rm3.20648@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > > <snipped for size>\
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > > > > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my
> > fault....
> > > I
> > > > > > listed
> > > > > > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to
tell
> > the
> > > > true
> > > > > > > from the false.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > > > > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my
> > > > resentments
> > > > > > > were/are my fault.
> > > > > > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did this
> > turn
> > > > into
> > > > > a
> > > > > > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it
alll
> > > > better.
> > > > > > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's
> just
> > > > taking
> > > > > > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > > > > > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told
> only
> > to
> > > > > > include resentments directly involving me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
> > > > >
> > > > > I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the
> > > resentment...
> > > > > it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I am
> > > > directly
> > > > > involved. After all, it is my resentment.
> > > > I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not
all
> > > > things i resent involve me directly.
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > > >
> > > > > Bobby L
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Darren,
> > >
> > > While it is true not "all" my problems were of my own making -- how I
> > > reacted to them was. No one else has control over my feelings and
> > > reactions. For that, I am responsible. While you say all the things
> you
> > > resent to not directly involve you -- the resentment itself it yours
and
> > > yours alone -- just as my resentments are mine and mine alone.
> >
> > If you have control over your feelings then you are a better man than I.
I
> > can't control my feelings and I certainly don't feel I have to apologise
> for
> > them mind you if i could then that would be awesome though not
guaruenteed
> a
> > good thing.
> >
> > Darren.
> > >
>
> That's too bad. My experience has been that as long as one feels that
way,
> there is no sense in going any further. The program of recovery outlined
in
> the Big Book is unlikely to work for you.
Maybe you should read the preamble again. "The only requirement for AA
membership is the desire to stop drinking". I qualify
>If you feel you are not
> responsible for your feelings and resentments then it's a short walk to
not
> be responsible for your actions.
I know I'm not responsible for my feelings. I'm a human not a bleeding
vulcan and its a long distance from not being responsible for my actions. As
long as I'm sober I don't do anything stupid.
>Now there are a lot of people who might
> tell you they are responsible for their actions, but they are not
> responsible for their feelings/resentments -- my experience has found that
> to be, not a conscious lie, but a wonderful pre-emptive justification. As
> soon as they do something to hurt another person, the instant
(pre-planned)
> response is "it's not my fault."
Somewhere along the line this turned from about not drinking to about fault
finding. Now I was told that the best way to move on is to leave the past
behind you and move on. You can't do that if you go fault finding.
>
> It's not abnormal - nor is it limited to alcoholics. Of course, most
people
> are not using it as an excuse to die from a deadly disease -- that seems
to
> limited to alcoholics and others of the same ilk. Until we were willing
to
> accept we were not like other people, we could not come to accept that we
> would NEVER be able to drink like others.
Agreed. Other people seem to be able to control their feelings. I cannot.
>Every person I have ever met in
> the meeting rooms and elsewhere who believed that one day they would be
able
> to drink like others, eventually -- everyone of them -- went to find out.
I
> have yet to hear of one alcoholic that was successful in proving they
could
> drink like a non-alcoholic.
You're changing the subject rather aren't you?
>
> I might be wrong here, but I am hearing a lack of willingness to be
honest -
> not with any of us - but with yourself.
As you don't know me then you are hardly qualified to tell me that i'm not
being honest with myself. If i was dishonest with myself then i would say
something stupid like "I can drink like others one day" and when have you
ever heard me say something stupid like that?

>You might try rational recovery or
> SMART. I don't think either of those recovery programs require the
> "housecleaning" outlined in the Big Book, which you are unwilling to
> proceed.
Who said I was unwilling to proceed?
> The program of recovery outlined in the Big Book works, but only if you
work
> it the way it says to work it. Many will tell you this program is not for
> those who need it, but for those who want it. That's Bullshit! The AA
> program of recovery is for those who work it. If wanting was enough, we
> wouldn't be alcoholics.
The big book also said the programme was guidelines and not rules. Yes i
note the grammatical error.
>
> If I tried to convince you that this program works halfway, it would be
> dishonest to you and dishonest to me. Fact is, this program is not the
> answer for everyone. It was never meant to be.

The programme says to take stock, fair enough. It says nothing about blaming
yourself for everything.

Darren
>
> Bobby L
>
>

Darren

08-20-2005, 09:48 PM

"someone in need" <nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:qqofg19atgont58s9l5n3mjiodb87bhgk2@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 19:51:47 GMT, "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Darren <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> >news:XcKNe.11202$bf6.11129@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> >>
> >> "rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
> >> news:s0beg1tqavl5i5atmnh1jp3nmf0781p75i@4ax.com...
> >> > On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 11:09:25 GMT, "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not
all
> >> > >things i resent involve me directly.
> >> > >
> >> > >Darren
> >> >
> >> > Hi Darren -
> >> >
> >> > AA theory runs roughly that selfishness is the root of all our
> >> > troubles, alcoholics being extreme examples of self-will run riot,
> >> > alcoholism being but a symptom of this deeper underlying spiritual
> >> > disorder.
> >> >
> >> > A square look at self is difficult at best, and pretty much
impossible
> >> > on regular days. We are blindly driven by a hundred forms of
> >> > self-concerned motives, and becoming willing to look at _resentments_
> >> > as a starting point from the whole new angle outlined in that certain
> >> > AA book will shed a remarkable light on some critical twists. We are
> >> > pots insisting kettles be black, unwilling to accept responsibility
> >> > for our selves as we are, the vital element of humility the alcoholic
> >> > so desperately requires in order to live at all, based on _AA_
> >> > experience, remains out of reach.
> >> >
> >> > As AA has it, the business of resentment is infinitely grave, and if
> >> > their experience and hard won insight proves to be correct, and if
you
> >> > wish to make use of what they have to offer, it might be wise to get
> >> > yourself a copy of that book [they] wrote and make sure you haven't
> >> > been misguided by your sponsor[s], and you know what you're about.
> >> >
> >> > I personally have my doubts based on personal experience that i'd be
> >> > as satisfactorily sober today had i not become willing to face some
> >> > very unpleasant truths about myself. I am beginning, though, to see
> >> > the usefulness of these probes, but i am equally sure i have a very
> >> > long way to go.
> >> >
> >> > If you're following a modernized version, good luck. Many folks do
> >> > find enough sobriety, peace and purpose following all sorts of paths.
> >> >
> >> > Have a nice day.
> >> The people wrote the book in 1939 and in those days it was easy to tar
all
> >> alcoholics with the same brush of selfishness and everyone in western
> >Europs
> >> was a Christian. My experienced shows that alcoholics (at least those i
> >> know) including myself are no more selfish than anyone else. in fact
some
> >> are rather less so and in my observations the common deal with most
> >> alcoholics is that we are a little too sensitive.. modern ideas look
for
> >> other causes in the psyche and yes though I do agree that a spiritual
side
> >> to life does help prevent relapse, to ignore the neurosis of the psyche
> >> would be a bad move in my opinion.
> >>
> >> BTW I like your sig. :)
> >>
> >> Darren
> >
> >Funny you make the astute observation that some alcoholics are seemingly
far
> >less selfish and my opinion is that is indeed sometimes true. But, in the
BB
> >it talks about the actor becoming even "more demanding or gracious, as
the
> >case may be". Some of the more people pleasing types actually appear much
> >less selfish than others as first glance, but are they really?
> >
> >> >
> >> > -----------
> >> > I used to worry i might be a sociopath, but, happily, it turns out i
> >> > can't even look my dog in the eye...
> >> > -----------
> >> > "We have drunk to escape the guilt of passions, and then have drunk
> >> > again to make more passions possible...This perverse soul-sickness is
> >> > not pleasant to look upon..."
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
> The alcoholic in my life was akin to Teresa of Calcutta. Alcohol
> turned her into a self centered, selfish, in grateful, obnoxious
> "little God"

Yep. That's pretty much what it did to me. And they say that "Jeckyl and
hyde" is a work of fiction. :)
>
> It also seems to have lowered her self esteem as the external
> appearance is now an obsessions.
I bet she's gorgeous, women usually are mind you it had the same affect on
me. (low self asteem that is not making me gorgeous) I work out now and
strangely enough, my hands have got younger. wierd huh?
>
> Alcohol also hurt her ability to smell as she bathes in perfume to eh
> point where you cannot be close to her without being overpowered.
>
When you eyes sting is the time to worry.

Darren

Bobby L

08-20-2005, 10:27 PM

"Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
news:9QRNe.14530$4y6.11454@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:ViMNe.17608$xW.5458@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> >
> > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > news:KgKNe.11203$bf6.2042@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> > >
> > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > news:yVGNe.27921$Rm3.20648@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > > > <snipped for size>\
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > > > > > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my
> > > fault....
> > > > I
> > > > > > > listed
> > > > > > > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to
> tell
> > > the
> > > > > true
> > > > > > > > from the false.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > > > > > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL my
> > > > > resentments
> > > > > > > > were/are my fault.
> > > > > > > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did
this
> > > turn
> > > > > into
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make it
> alll
> > > > > better.
> > > > > > > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty." It's
> > just
> > > > > taking
> > > > > > > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > > > > > > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was told
> > only
> > > to
> > > > > > > include resentments directly involving me.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the
> > > > resentment...
> > > > > > it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b) I
am
> > > > > directly
> > > > > > involved. After all, it is my resentment.
> > > > > I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no not
> all
> > > > > things i resent involve me directly.
> > > > >
> > > > > Darren
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Darren,
> > > >
> > > > While it is true not "all" my problems were of my own making -- how
I
> > > > reacted to them was. No one else has control over my feelings and
> > > > reactions. For that, I am responsible. While you say all the
things
> > you
> > > > resent to not directly involve you -- the resentment itself it yours
> and
> > > > yours alone -- just as my resentments are mine and mine alone.
> > >
> > > If you have control over your feelings then you are a better man than
I.
> I
> > > can't control my feelings and I certainly don't feel I have to
apologise
> > for
> > > them mind you if i could then that would be awesome though not
> guaruenteed
> > a
> > > good thing.
> > >
> > > Darren.
> > > >
> >
> > That's too bad. My experience has been that as long as one feels that
> way,
> > there is no sense in going any further. The program of recovery
outlined
> in
> > the Big Book is unlikely to work for you.
> Maybe you should read the preamble again. "The only requirement for AA
> membership is the desire to stop drinking". I qualify
> >If you feel you are not
> > responsible for your feelings and resentments then it's a short walk to
> not
> > be responsible for your actions.
> I know I'm not responsible for my feelings. I'm a human not a bleeding
> vulcan and its a long distance from not being responsible for my actions.
As
> long as I'm sober I don't do anything stupid.
> >Now there are a lot of people who might
> > tell you they are responsible for their actions, but they are not
> > responsible for their feelings/resentments -- my experience has found
that
> > to be, not a conscious lie, but a wonderful pre-emptive justification.
As
> > soon as they do something to hurt another person, the instant
> (pre-planned)
> > response is "it's not my fault."
> Somewhere along the line this turned from about not drinking to about
fault
> finding. Now I was told that the best way to move on is to leave the past
> behind you and move on. You can't do that if you go fault finding.
> >
> > It's not abnormal - nor is it limited to alcoholics. Of course, most
> people
> > are not using it as an excuse to die from a deadly disease -- that seems
> to
> > limited to alcoholics and others of the same ilk. Until we were willing
> to
> > accept we were not like other people, we could not come to accept that
we
> > would NEVER be able to drink like others.
> Agreed. Other people seem to be able to control their feelings. I cannot.
> >Every person I have ever met in
> > the meeting rooms and elsewhere who believed that one day they would be
> able
> > to drink like others, eventually -- everyone of them -- went to find
out.
> I
> > have yet to hear of one alcoholic that was successful in proving they
> could
> > drink like a non-alcoholic.
> You're changing the subject rather aren't you?
> >
> > I might be wrong here, but I am hearing a lack of willingness to be
> honest -
> > not with any of us - but with yourself.
> As you don't know me then you are hardly qualified to tell me that i'm not
> being honest with myself. If i was dishonest with myself then i would say
> something stupid like "I can drink like others one day" and when have you
> ever heard me say something stupid like that?
>
> >You might try rational recovery or
> > SMART. I don't think either of those recovery programs require the
> > "housecleaning" outlined in the Big Book, which you are unwilling to
> > proceed.
> Who said I was unwilling to proceed?
> > The program of recovery outlined in the Big Book works, but only if you
> work
> > it the way it says to work it. Many will tell you this program is not
for
> > those who need it, but for those who want it. That's Bullshit! The AA
> > program of recovery is for those who work it. If wanting was enough, we
> > wouldn't be alcoholics.
> The big book also said the programme was guidelines and not rules. Yes i
> note the grammatical error.
> >
> > If I tried to convince you that this program works halfway, it would be
> > dishonest to you and dishonest to me. Fact is, this program is not the
> > answer for everyone. It was never meant to be.
>
> The programme says to take stock, fair enough. It says nothing about
blaming
> yourself for everything.
>
> Darren
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >

Darren, you are right .... the only requirement for AA membership is a
desire to stop drinking ... but I thought you wanted recovery, not just
membership.
(1) The distance between not being responsible for our feelings and not
being responsible for our actions is generally somewhere between 34 and 38
inches.
(2) Fear is a wonderus thing -- I say "responsibility" and you hear "fault"
and "blame." I will always wonder how that works. Have you noticed that
Alcohol is only mentioned once in the 12 steps?
(4) Guidelines.... Are you sure the big book says this? I'll have to look
for this.
(5) As I remember, the goal is find "our part" in "all" of our resentments,
but I might be mistaken. I will now have to go back and reread that part of
the book.
We have reached a point where we are headed along different paths. Much as
I might wish to continue with you, I have no experience down the path you
have chosen and it would be foolish of me to behave as if I had.
Good luck,

Bobby L

Darren

08-21-2005, 05:44 AM

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ZxSNe.29827$XM3.28150@bignews5.bellsouth.net. ..
>
> "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> news:9QRNe.14530$4y6.11454@newsfe7-gui.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:ViMNe.17608$xW.5458@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
> > >
> > > "Darren" <Ohisay@idontdrink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:KgKNe.11203$bf6.2042@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> > > >
> > > > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:yVGNe.27921$Rm3.20648@bignews4.bellsouth.net. ..
> > > > > <snipped for size>\
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Ok, I'll tell you about me and then you will know.
> > > > > > > > > I didn't list just the gripes or resentments that were my
> > > > fault....
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > listed
> > > > > > > > > them all. You see I still suffered from not being able to
> > tell
> > > > the
> > > > > > true
> > > > > > > > > from the false.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It can get a bit cloudy from time to time.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >This was the part of what we dealt with in step five.
> > > > > > > > > While all my problems were not necessarily my fault, ALL
my
> > > > > > resentments
> > > > > > > > > were/are my fault.
> > > > > > > > very few of mine are my fault but then again since when did
> this
> > > > turn
> > > > > > into
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > fault finding exercise? Knowing who fucked up doesn't make
it
> > alll
> > > > > > better.
> > > > > > > > > It was less about "bitching" and more about "honesty."
It's
> > > just
> > > > > > taking
> > > > > > > > > stock. Fear will keep the list short.
> > > > > > > > My list has 50 entries. It would have been more but i was
told
> > > only
> > > > to
> > > > > > > > include resentments directly involving me.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Not your fault.... directly involve me....."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I might be wrong about this -- but if I am the one with the
> > > > > resentment...
> > > > > > > it's a pretty good bet (a) the resentment is my fault and (b)
I
> am
> > > > > > directly
> > > > > > > involved. After all, it is my resentment.
> > > > > > I don't see how ayour resentments have to be your fault and no
not
> > all
> > > > > > things i resent involve me directly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Darren
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bobby L
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Darren,
> > > > >
> > > > > While it is true not "all" my problems were of my own making --
how
> I
> > > > > reacted to them was. No one else has control over my feelings and
> > > > > reactions. For that, I am responsible. While you say all the
> things
> > > you
> > > > > resent to not directly involve you -- the resentment itself it
yours
> > and
> > > > > yours alone -- just as my resentments are mine and mine alone.
> > > >
> > > > If you have control over your feelings then you are a better man
than
> I.
> > I
> > > > can't control my feelings and I certainly don't feel I have to
> apologise
> > > for
> > > > them mind you if i could then that would be awesome though not
> > guaruenteed
> > > a
> > > > good thing.
> > > >
> > > > Darren.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > That's too bad. My experience has been that as long as one feels
that
> > way,
> > > there is no sense in going any further. The program of recovery
> outlined
> > in
> > > the Big Book is unlikely to work for you.
> > Maybe you should read the preamble again. "The only requirement for AA
> > membership is the desire to stop drinking". I qualify
> > >If you feel you are not
> > > responsible for your feelings and resentments then it's a short walk
to
> > not
> > > be responsible for your actions.
> > I know I'm not responsible for my feelings. I'm a human not a bleeding
> > vulcan and its a long distance from not being responsible for my
actions.
> As
> > long as I'm sober I don't do anything stupid.
> > >Now there are a lot of people who might
> > > tell you they are responsible for their actions, but they are not
> > > responsible for their feelings/resentments -- my experience has found
> that
> > > to be, not a conscious lie, but a wonderful pre-emptive justification.
> As
> > > soon as they do something to hurt another person, the instant
> > (pre-planned)
> > > response is "it's not my fault."
> > Somewhere along the line this turned from about not drinking to about
> fault
> > finding. Now I was told that the best way to move on is to leave the
past
> > behind you and move on. You can't do that if you go fault finding.
> > >
> > > It's not abnormal - nor is it limited to alcoholics. Of course, most
> > people
> > > are not using it as an excuse to die from a deadly disease -- that
seems
> > to
> > > limited to alcoholics and others of the same ilk. Until we were
willing
> > to
> > > accept we were not like other people, we could not come to accept that
> we
> > > would NEVER be able to drink like others.
> > Agreed. Other people seem to be able to control their feelings. I
cannot.
> > >Every person I have ever met in
> > > the meeting rooms and elsewhere who believed that one day they would
be
> > able
> > > to drink like others, eventually -- everyone of them -- went to find
> out.
> > I
> > > have yet to hear of one alcoholic that was successful in proving they
> > could
> > > drink like a non-alcoholic.
> > You're changing the subject rather aren't you?
> > >
> > > I might be wrong here, but I am hearing a lack of willingness to be
> > honest -
> > > not with any of us - but with yourself.
> > As you don't know me then you are hardly qualified to tell me that i'm
not
> > being honest with myself. If i was dishonest with myself then i would
say
> > something stupid like "I can drink like others one day" and when have
you
> > ever heard me say something stupid like that?
> >
> > >You might try rational recovery or
> > > SMART. I don't think either of those recovery programs require the
> > > "housecleaning" outlined in the Big Book, which you are unwilling to
> > > proceed.
> > Who said I was unwilling to proceed?
> > > The program of recovery outlined in the Big Book works, but only if
you
> > work
> > > it the way it says to work it. Many will tell you this program is not
> for
> > > those who need it, but for those who want it. That's Bullshit! The
AA
> > > program of recovery is for those who work it. If wanting was enough,
we
> > > wouldn't be alcoholics.
> > The big book also said the programme was guidelines and not rules. Yes i
> > note the grammatical error.
> > >
> > > If I tried to convince you that this program works halfway, it would
be
> > > dishonest to you and dishonest to me. Fact is, this program is not
the
> > > answer for everyone. It was never meant to be.
> >
> > The programme says to take stock, fair enough. It says nothing about
> blaming
> > yourself for everything.
> >
> > Darren
> > >
> > > Bobby L
> > >
> > >
>
> Darren, you are right .... the only requirement for AA membership is a
> desire to stop drinking ... but I thought you wanted recovery, not just
> membership.
To stop drinking, yes and for these bloody emotional side effects to go
away.
> (1) The distance between not being responsible for our feelings and not
> being responsible for our actions is generally somewhere between 34 and 38
> inches.
if that were water it would be deep enough for you to drown in.
> (2) Fear is a wonderus thing -- I say "responsibility" and you hear
"fault"
> and "blame." I will always wonder how that works. Have you noticed that
> Alcohol is only mentioned once in the 12 steps?
No i Haden't. I wonder why that is
> (4) Guidelines.... Are you sure the big book says this? I'll have to look
> for this.
yes, its often mentioned in AA
> (5) As I remember, the goal is find "our part" in "all" of our
resentments,
> but I might be mistaken. I will now have to go back and reread that part
of
> the book.
My goal is to stay sober and sane and to put the past behind me
> We have reached a point where we are headed along different paths. Much
as
> I might wish to continue with you, I have no experience down the path you
> have chosen and it would be foolish of me to behave as if I had.
> Good luck,
You certainly seem to be going down a path of christian relisgion, fair
enbough if that's what you beleive in then revel in it. My goal is to stay
sober one day at a time and i've clocked over sixx months so far without a
single slip.

Darren
>
> Bobby L
>
>