I think I need help

[coyote]

Hello. I think I posted here before in the past (my memory is not the best,
you understand), and here I am again. Every day I wake up in the middle of
the night, feeling sick, telling myself I have to stop, hating drinking.
Every morning, I say I am quitting. Every night I say I am only going to
have 2, which turns into 5 or 7, which makes me feel good, and numb. Every
night, I love drinking. I feel like I cannot stop until I have had enough.
I quit for 2 years about 3 years ago, I think, and for some stupid reason I
started again (I thought I could have a drink with dinner, etc....you know
the story) I am terrified that I am going to lose my job, my apartment. I
have been to AA before, maybe 4 meetings, but didn't continue, and was able
to quit on my own. I work for the government, and we have an employee
assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.

[Dan McGown]

"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
> Hello. I think I posted here before in the past (my memory is not the
> best,
> you understand), and here I am again. Every day I wake up in the middle
> of
> the night, feeling sick, telling myself I have to stop, hating drinking.
> Every morning, I say I am quitting. Every night I say I am only going to
> have 2, which turns into 5 or 7, which makes me feel good, and numb.
> Every
> night, I love drinking. I feel like I cannot stop until I have had
> enough.
> I quit for 2 years about 3 years ago, I think, and for some stupid reason
> I
> started again (I thought I could have a drink with dinner, etc....you know
> the story) I am terrified that I am going to lose my job, my apartment.
> I
> have been to AA before, maybe 4 meetings, but didn't continue, and was
> able
> to quit on my own. I work for the government, and we have an employee
> assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.

Answering the last part first, if you are at the point that you are
having to worry that you are going to lose your job, then it probably
wouldn't come as a surprise that you need help if you were to ask for it.
One key point on the extent to which you may jeopardize your position by
asking for help is the fact that there is an employee assistance program.
There must be a reason why it was put in place.
You sound like you already know parts of the answers to your questions.
For instance, you already know that your last bout of "not drinking" (I
don't know enough about you to comment on whether it had ripened into
sobriety) was lost to that traitorous thought that not drinking for a while
meant that you could risk the first one. Deep in your heart, you knew that
wasn't true -- the alcohol siren was just calling to you with the lie. Now
you have proved to yourself that it was a lie. You don't have to believe
us, but you do need to accept your own evidence.
I don't know if AA meetings will work for you. Bob says that they
didn't work for him and likes to quote statistics about failure rates. What
I do know is that they are part of what works for me and that I don't
personally know anybody who has acheived sobriety without meetings being a
part of it.
Look at it this way. Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20 fail, that
means two important things. One is that one out of 20 chose to succeed.
The other is that even if it were random, which it is not, one chance out of
20 is better than the zero chance that you have if you keep drinking.
The probability approached certainty that if you continue to drink you
will lose all of the things that are important to you.
We are only telling you what we have seen and what we did about it.
You have to decide if you want to save yourself badly enough to try what has
worked for us. The critical thing isn't that if you try the program that
you might fail. The critical thing is that you can succeed.
Please do it. Don't *try* it. Do it. It is working for Fred and it
is working for Steve and it is working for me. It can work for you if you
make it work.
Dan

[Scott's Big Adventure]

In article <T6CdnRLsCsiEPuncRVn-oQ@adelphia.com>, dmcgown@adelphia.net
says...
>
> "coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
> > Hello. I think I posted here before in the past (my memory is not the
> > best,
> > you understand), and here I am again. Every day I wake up in the middle
> > of
> > the night, feeling sick, telling myself I have to stop, hating drinking.
> > Every morning, I say I am quitting. Every night I say I am only going to
> > have 2, which turns into 5 or 7, which makes me feel good, and numb.
> > Every
> > night, I love drinking. I feel like I cannot stop until I have had
> > enough.
> > I quit for 2 years about 3 years ago, I think, and for some stupid reason
> > I
> > started again (I thought I could have a drink with dinner, etc....you know
> > the story) I am terrified that I am going to lose my job, my apartment.
> > I
> > have been to AA before, maybe 4 meetings, but didn't continue, and was
> > able
> > to quit on my own. I work for the government, and we have an employee
> > assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.
>
> Answering the last part first, if you are at the point that you are
> having to worry that you are going to lose your job, then it probably
> wouldn't come as a surprise that you need help if you were to ask for it.
> One key point on the extent to which you may jeopardize your position by
> asking for help is the fact that there is an employee assistance program.
> There must be a reason why it was put in place.
> You sound like you already know parts of the answers to your questions.
> For instance, you already know that your last bout of "not drinking" (I
> don't know enough about you to comment on whether it had ripened into
> sobriety) was lost to that traitorous thought that not drinking for a while
> meant that you could risk the first one. Deep in your heart, you knew that
> wasn't true -- the alcohol siren was just calling to you with the lie. Now
> you have proved to yourself that it was a lie. You don't have to believe
> us, but you do need to accept your own evidence.
> I don't know if AA meetings will work for you. Bob says that they
> didn't work for him and likes to quote statistics about failure rates. What
> I do know is that they are part of what works for me and that I don't
> personally know anybody who has acheived sobriety without meetings being a
> part of it.
> Look at it this way. Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20 fail, that
> means two important things. One is that one out of 20 chose to succeed.
> The other is that even if it were random, which it is not, one chance out of
> 20 is better than the zero chance that you have if you keep drinking.
> The probability approached certainty that if you continue to drink you
> will lose all of the things that are important to you.
> We are only telling you what we have seen and what we did about it.
> You have to decide if you want to save yourself badly enough to try what has
> worked for us. The critical thing isn't that if you try the program that
> you might fail. The critical thing is that you can succeed.
> Please do it. Don't *try* it. Do it. It is working for Fred and it
> is working for Steve and it is working for me. It can work for you if you
> make it work.
> Dan
>
>
>
Bob! Bob! Bob! Bob is God!
--
"And I can hear the ukuleles playing
Down by the sea
She's gone with the hula hula boys
She don't care about me
They're signing,
"Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana.."

[Robert McGregor]

"Scott's Big Adventure" <bedtime@bonzoranch.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1bde52f95735c95898c0df@news.alt.net...
> Bob! Bob! Bob! Bob is God!

Shhhhhhh
Don't tell anyone our secret, I've enough on my hands, with me!

Bob

[Scott's Big Adventure]

In article <2tjoelF201v7nU1@uni-berlin.de>, robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au
says...
>
> "Scott's Big Adventure" <bedtime@bonzoranch.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1bde52f95735c95898c0df@news.alt.net...
> > Bob! Bob! Bob! Bob is God!
>
> Shhhhhhh
> Don't tell anyone our secret, I've enough on my hands, with me!
>
> Bob
>
>
>
Bob! It's you! Bob! Bob! Bob! Bob! Bob!
--
"And I can hear the ukuleles playing
Down by the sea
She's gone with the hula hula boys
She don't care about me
They're signing,
"Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana.."

[cOlOnEl pOlYpS]

"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
> Hello. I think I posted here before in the past (my memory is not the
best,
> you understand), and here I am again. Every day I wake up in the
middle of
> the night, feeling sick, telling myself I have to stop, hating
drinking.
> Every morning, I say I am quitting. Every night I say I am only going
to
> have 2, which turns into 5 or 7, which makes me feel good, and numb.
Every
> night, I love drinking. I feel like I cannot stop until I have had
enough.
> I quit for 2 years about 3 years ago, I think, and for some stupid
reason I
> started again (I thought I could have a drink with dinner, etc....you
know
> the story) I am terrified that I am going to lose my job, my
apartment. I
> have been to AA before, maybe 4 meetings, but didn't continue, and was
able
> to quit on my own. I work for the government, and we have an employee
> assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.

No. You guys are sucking enough money out of my pocket.

Die asshole.

I can only hope for a civil war so I can legally kill tax sucking
maggots like you who make marijuana illegal so you can kill your self
with alcohol.

Exterminate the Jew Government

[rosie readandpost]

welcome coyote!
your story sounds so much like mine...........................that
every morning pledge, and that every afternoon broken
promise..................oh what awful memories you have evoked!

i started with AA and still use it to this day as a tool in my
recovery, and i highly recommend it.
do you have reason to believe that you will need more help than
that? if so, do contact your employee assistance program!

welcome, once again!
rosie












"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
: Hello. I think I posted here before in the past (my memory is not
the best,
: you understand), and here I am again. Every day I wake up in the
middle of
: the night, feeling sick, telling myself I have to stop, hating
drinking.
: Every morning, I say I am quitting. Every night I say I am only
going to
: have 2, which turns into 5 or 7, which makes me feel good, and
numb. Every
: night, I love drinking. I feel like I cannot stop until I have
had enough.
: I quit for 2 years about 3 years ago, I think, and for some stupid
reason I
: started again (I thought I could have a drink with dinner,
etc....you know
: the story) I am terrified that I am going to lose my job, my
apartment. I
: have been to AA before, maybe 4 meetings, but didn't continue, and
was able
: to quit on my own. I work for the government, and we have an
employee
: assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.
:

[rosie readandpost]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:T6CdnRLsCsiEPuncRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
:
:...................... Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20 fail

he's not!

[rosie readandpost]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:T6CdnRLsCsiEPuncRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
:.................... It can work for you if you
: make it work.
: Dan
:
:



AMEN!

[Robert McGregor]

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
message news:Fv7dd.28564$PH6.28319@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> "Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:T6CdnRLsCsiEPuncRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
> :
> :...................... Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20 fail
>
> he's not!
>

Rosie, you're so drug dependent you wouldn't know if Dan was up you!

Bob

(AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
"A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
truly terrible statistic". (page 2)

From: "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com>

Message-ID: < wkHa.22568$fe.447991@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>

>YES, whatever works!

>i belong to the "old school" of counting sobriety from the LAST

>drink/drug,



From: "rosie@readandpost" <readandpost@yahoo.com>

http://tinyurl.com/2w5cs

>i am thinking about asking my pdoc to increase my celexa to

>60mg..........anyone else in here have good results with that
>dosage?

>my 40mg seems to be "pooping out"...........



"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in
message

news:A98Ka.109221$Xl.2092045@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

>

> i will never be recovered..............................

[Don Staples]

"cOlOnEl pOlYpS" <voodoo@disease.666> wrote in message
news:cl2oja02la0@enews4.newsguy.com...
>
>
> I can only hope for a civil war so I can legally kill tax sucking
> maggots like you who make marijuana illegal so you can kill your self
> with alcohol.
>
> Exterminate the Jew Government
>
In a civil war you would be the first dumb fuck against the wall.

[[[]]]

On 2004-10-19 00:16:04 -0500, "Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> said:
> Answering the last part first, if you are at the point that you
> are having to worry that you are going to lose your job, then it
> probably wouldn't come as a surprise that you need help if you were to
> ask for it. One key point on the extent to which you may jeopardize
> your position by asking for help is the fact that there is an employee
> assistance program. There must be a reason why it was put in place.
> You sound like you already know parts of the answers to your
> questions. For instance, you already know that your last bout of "not
> drinking" (I don't know enough about you to comment on whether it had
> ripened into sobriety) was lost to that traitorous thought that not
> drinking for a while meant that you could risk the first one. Deep in
> your heart, you knew that wasn't true -- the alcohol siren was just
> calling to you with the lie. Now you have proved to yourself that it
> was a lie. You don't have to believe us, but you do need to accept
> your own evidence.
> I don't know if AA meetings will work for you. Bob says that they
> didn't work for him and likes to quote statistics about failure rates.
> What I do know is that they are part of what works for me and that I
> don't personally know anybody who has acheived sobriety without
> meetings being a part of it.
> Look at it this way. Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20 fail,
> that means two important things. One is that one out of 20 chose to
> succeed. The other is that even if it were random, which it is not, one
> chance out of 20 is better than the zero chance that you have if you
> keep drinking.
> The probability approached certainty that if you continue to drink
> you will lose all of the things that are important to you.
> We are only telling you what we have seen and what we did about
> it. You have to decide if you want to save yourself badly enough to try
> what has worked for us. The critical thing isn't that if you try the
> program that you might fail. The critical thing is that you can
> succeed.
> Please do it. Don't *try* it. Do it. It is working for Fred and
> it is working for Steve and it is working for me. It can work for you
> if you make it work.
> Dan

There is a solution for you, Coyote and Dan's message describes one
that has worked for many of us.
I hope you find your way.

Stick around, you're an important part of the group here.

-Steve

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2tkh12F217cf2U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> " rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
> message news:Fv7dd.28564$PH6.28319@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > "Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> > news:T6CdnRLsCsiEPuncRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...
> > :
> > :...................... Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20
fail
> >
> > he's not!
> >
>
> Rosie, you're so drug dependent you wouldn't know if Dan was up
you!
>
> Bob
>
> (AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
> "A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
> of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
> truly terrible statistic". (page 2)

Dear Bob,

I'm curious to know whether the study was a study of AA in Australia
only ? Also, whether you have info on who conducted the survey and
when; what, if any, explanations the researchers gave for people
leaving groups and finally, what, if any recommendations they made
concerning what groups ought to consider doing in order to try to
encourage newcomers to stay ?

Best regards

JB

[JB]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:T6CdnRLsCsiEPuncRVn-oQ@adelphia.com...

<snip>
Even if Bob is right and 19 out of 20 fail, that
> means two important things. One is that one out of 20 chose to
succeed.

Dear Dan,

After reading your post, I re-read Bob's. I think that I may not have
seen in it what you appear to have done. Bob wrote:

"(AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
"A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
truly terrible statistic". (page 2)"

This statement does not suggest to me that 19 out of 20 fail to
recover from alcoholism nor that 1 in 20 succeeds in doing so.

Having said that, I'm now wondering whether you and I have different
views on what it means to be "recovered from alcoholism". To me, it
means more than just not picking up a drink. It means that an
alcoholic becomes able to see the truth about what alcohol does to
them when they consume it and also the truth about themselves and the
world in which they live. As a result of seeing these truths they've
developed a new outlook on/attitude towards themselves and also to
life and have a new life in which alcohol is powerless to harm them.
If you have a view on what it means to be "recovered from alcoholism",
would you mind sharing it ?

BTW, my view comes from my interpretation of the BB teachings. If
anyone thinks that what I've said suggests to them that I've
misinterpreted the BB's teachings, I hope they will say why they think
I have.

JB

[Dan McGown]

> Dear Dan,
>
> After reading your post, I re-read Bob's. I think that I may not have
> seen in it what you appear to have done. Bob wrote:
>
> "(AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
> "A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
> of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
> truly terrible statistic". (page 2)"
>
> This statement does not suggest to me that 19 out of 20 fail to
> recover from alcoholism nor that 1 in 20 succeeds in doing so.
>
> Having said that, I'm now wondering whether you and I have different
> views on what it means to be "recovered from alcoholism". To me, it
> means more than just not picking up a drink. It means that an
> alcoholic becomes able to see the truth about what alcohol does to
> them when they consume it and also the truth about themselves and the
> world in which they live. As a result of seeing these truths they've
> developed a new outlook on/attitude towards themselves and also to
> life and have a new life in which alcohol is powerless to harm them.
> If you have a view on what it means to be "recovered from alcoholism",
> would you mind sharing it ?
>
> BTW, my view comes from my interpretation of the BB teachings. If
> anyone thinks that what I've said suggests to them that I've
> misinterpreted the BB's teachings, I hope they will say why they think
> I have.
>
> JB

JB,
I will have to give some thought to how to respond to your questions
because I will have to try to translate (in the geometric sense, or maybe
even rotate) your perspective into mine and back again. One of the things
that I have to think about is whether our concepts are merely described
differently or whether they mean different things.
I don't think in terms of being "recovered from alcoholism" any more
than would I think in terms of being "recovered from right-handedness" or
being "recovered from being Caucasian." I think in terms of achieving
sobriety. Being an alcoholic is just part of what I am. Drinking is just a
part of what I used to do because I am an alcoholic. As I understand it, I
can stop drinking and I can even achieve sobriety and serenity, but I can't
stop being an alcoholic. I think that it is dangerous for me even to think
in terms of being able to not be an alcoholic because if I believed that I
might believe that it meant that I could be a normal drinker and I cannot.
Interwined with that are things that I can change. I don't intend to
parade my inventory in particulars, but there was (undoubtedly still are
some, because this is a continuing process) a wealth of flaws in how I
thought and what I did that contributed to, were an excuse for, were a
result of, or existed independent from my drinking. I have to work at
correcting those things not only because their continued existence poses a
threat to my abstention but also because their continued existence makes me
into an unhappy jerk, unpleasant to be and less pleasant to be around.
The not drinking is both a product of the work to solve those problems
and also a facilitator of solving those problems. It is a synergistic mix.
By itself, though, the not drinking merely makes me abstemious. Working to
solve the other problems helps me to achieve sobriety and serenity.
I hope that this has been responsive to your questions.
Dan

[Dan McGown]

JB,
I first sent this to you as a private post, but I think that I would
like to share it with the group because, if it is not presumptuous of me to
say so, I think that it is a place where I think more like Bob than I had
considered:

The short form is a quote from a song by Sister Hazel:

"If you want to be someone else, change your mind."

[JB]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:N_SdnQh7FZzuzejcRVn-hw@adelphia.com...
<snip>

> I don't think in terms of being "recovered from alcoholism" any
more
> than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
right-handedness" or
> being "recovered from being Caucasian."

Hi Dan,

I've not yet had time to take on board all that you've said. However,
your comment:

"> I don't think in terms of being "recovered from alcoholism" any
more
> than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
right-handedness" or
> being "recovered from being Caucasian."

reminded me that sometimes instead of talking in terms of being
"recovered from alcoholism" I talk about "managing the illness (known
as alcoholism)". My idea is based on my interpretation of comments
which appear in the BB in "The Dr's Opinion":

JB

[Dan McGown]

> reminded me that sometimes instead of talking in terms of being
> "recovered from alcoholism" I talk about "managing the illness (known
> as alcoholism)". My idea is based on my interpretation of comments
> which appear in the BB in "The Dr's Opinion":

I less formal settings, like the social time before and after meetings, I
sometimes introduce myself by saying: "Hi, I'm Dan and I'm a recovering
asshole -- and an alcoholic."
Dan

[Dan McGown]

> I less formal settings, like the social time before and

"In less formal . . ." Hi, I'm Dan and I'm a recovering horrible typist.

[JB]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:N_SdnQh7FZzuzejcRVn-hw@adelphia.com...
<JB's post snipped>

> JB,
> I will have to give some thought to how to respond to your
questions
> because I will have to try to translate (in the geometric sense, or
maybe
> even rotate) your perspective into mine and back again. One of the
things
> that I have to think about is whether our concepts are merely
described
> differently or whether they mean different things.
> I don't think in terms of being "recovered from alcoholism" any
more
> than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
right-handedness" or
> being "recovered from being Caucasian." I think in terms of
achieving
> sobriety. Being an alcoholic is just part of what I am. Drinking
is just a
> part of what I used to do because I am an alcoholic. As I
understand it, I
> can stop drinking and I can even achieve sobriety and serenity, but
I can't
> stop being an alcoholic. I think that it is dangerous for me even
to think
> in terms of being able to not be an alcoholic because if I believed
that I
> might believe that it meant that I could be a normal drinker and I
cannot.
> Interwined with that are things that I can change. I don't
intend to
> parade my inventory in particulars, but there was (undoubtedly still
are
> some, because this is a continuing process) a wealth of flaws in how
I
> thought and what I did that contributed to, were an excuse for, were
a
> result of, or existed independent from my drinking. I have to work
at
> correcting those things not only because their continued existence
poses a
> threat to my abstention but also because their continued existence
makes me
> into an unhappy jerk, unpleasant to be and less pleasant to be
around.
> The not drinking is both a product of the work to solve those
problems
> and also a facilitator of solving those problems. It is a
synergistic mix.
> By itself, though, the not drinking merely makes me abstemious. Wor
king to
> solve the other problems helps me to achieve sobriety and serenity.
> I hope that this has been responsive to your questions.
> Dan
>
Dear Dan,

Your post has given me much to think about. I welcome that and
therefore thank you for replying to me.

ATB

JB

[JB]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:8a6dnTR96_IBwOjcRVn-uw@adelphia.com...

> I
> sometimes introduce myself by saying: "Hi, I'm Dan and I'm a
recovering asshole -- and an alcoholic."
> Dan

LOL Maybe you'll decide when you've achieved recovery from *that* -
and say to hell with what others think ?

ATB

JB

[rosie readandpost]

:....................... I don't think in terms of being "recovered
from alcoholism" any more
: than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
right-handedness" or
: being "recovered from being Caucasian."


on the button dan!
you will however, get an argument about your interpretation from
some...................i'm with you!

[Ricky Gentry]

> "(AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
> "A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some 5%
> of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a
> truly terrible statistic". (page 2)"
>

"Terrible" is a relative word. If that was totally ture, then AA will
eventually die out for lack of numbers.

In the US, many "newcomers" are required to attend AA as a requirement of
legal action. Most of them just go to pass the time and get their sheet
signed. I would believe 1 in 20 of this group.

Plus, many people that"go back out" and then come to AA do not consider
themselves newcomers.

I really think the program will work if the person wants to work it, and
won't for those that had other motives in mind.

RG

[[[]]]

On 2004-10-19 13:33:37 -0500, "Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> said:

>
>> I less formal settings, like the social time before and
>
> "In less formal . . ." Hi, I'm Dan and I'm a recovering horrible typist.

keep comin' bake..

-Steve

[[[]]]

On 2004-10-19 15:16:28 -0500, " rosie readandpost"
<readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> said:

> :....................... I don't think in terms of being "recovered
> from alcoholism" any more
> : than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
> right-handedness" or
> : being "recovered from being Caucasian."
>
>
> on the button dan!
> you will however, get an argument about your interpretation from
> some...................i'm with you!

with the fondest respect to you all, if ever find myself recovered,
I'll be blowing this pop-stand of a newsgroup. But until then I'll keep
coming back.

-Steve

[rosie readandpost]

: with the fondest respect to you all, if ever find myself
recovered,
: I'll be blowing this pop-stand of a newsgroup. But until then I'll
keep
: coming back.
:
: -Steve
:
:

me too steve, me too!
;)

[JB]

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:m_ydnYmSM9vyzujcRVn-3w@adelphia.com...
> JB,
> I first sent this to you as a private post, but I think that I
would
> like to share it with the group because, if it is not presumptuous
of me to
> say so, I think that it is a place where I think more like Bob than
I had
> considered:
>
> The short form is a quote from a song by Sister Hazel:
>
> "If you want to be someone else, change your mind."

Dear Dan,

Your private email has not arrived. Did you send it to my freeserve
address ?

JB

[coyote]

Thank you Dan, and Rosie, and Steve, and the others for taking the time to
respond to me. There is a lot of caring and good advice here, I feel. You
helped me be able to pour two open bottles of very good organic wine down
the sink at lunch time today, and give away the other 2 unopened ones (I
didn't mean that to sound sarcastic, really) Your message, Dan, made me
recognize, at least for a short time, that I cannot drink in moderation,
that if I really want to get out of this nightmare, I cannot take one drink.
I say "for a short time", because even tonight, less than 24 hours after I
posted my message, part of me is telling myself that I can enjoy a couple of
drinks and leave it at that (even though I can't remember the last time
being able to do so), and wishing I hadn't gotten rid of that wine. And
that part of me is saying that I am blowing this out of proportion, worrying
about losing my job - it's just not that bad. I guess that's part of what
they call denial. Isn't it crazy, the power that alcohol has over some of
us? What you said, Dan, about "that traitorous thought" and the "alcohol
siren calling to you with the lie" sounds scary and rings true for me.

I've poured lots of booze down the sink the morning after, vowing to quit.
Always, I go out later, if not the same day, then the very next day, to buy
more. Lately, I haven't even done that, reasoning that I should keep it,
just in case I need a little that night to calm my anxiety. Of course, I
always do need it, more than a little, and drink it if it's there. So, at
least part of today, thanks to your help, I was able to be honest with
myself about all that, and admit that I cannot safely take one drink.

Last night I had my usual glass of beer and glass of wine on the go in front
of me (they go so well together) as I typed my message. I found it
particularly hard to stop last night, and I remember bumping into things
before I went to bed. This morning, I think I was still half drunk going
into work. That was scary, waking up, not only feeling sick, but still
drunk. I really don't think people at work know, (since I'm a very good
actor, and when it's really bad, which is rare, I call in sick), though
maybe I'm wrong.

This is only the second day in at least the last 6 months, probably longer,
that I haven't had anything to drink. It's scaring me because I know I am
worse now than when I quit before, and I remember that was very hard, and it
was a real struggle and took many attempts before I finally was able to
quit. Last time, I used to put stickies on my computer with the number of
days I had gone without drinking, and it frequently used to get to 15 or 20.
Now, I have not been able to go more than 1 day.

I am scared because I feel that not only am I powerless against alcohol once
I start drinking, but also I feel powerless against it before I start, which
causes me to drink. I can smell it, I can taste that smooth Chardonnay, I
can feel it. I feel like I am programmed, a robot, and I end up at the
liquor store, then at home again drinking, in spite of my resolve, and my
vows, and everything. Dan, you said it can work if I make it work, and if
I want to save myself. It's difficult for me, I think, because there is a
part of me that wants that, and a part of me (the drinking me) that doesn't.
I have been taking anti-depressants for about 6 months for pretty severe
depression and mood swings. The warning label on the bottle says "Do not
consume alcoholic beverages while taking this medication". They were
helping, when I started them; my daily alcohol intake was lower then. Now,
I practically wash them down with wine and beer.

Thank you again to all for your support. It is helpful knowing you are
here, and it's been helpful for me to write this.

Ian

[Robert McGregor]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cl3e5u$l68$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:2tkh12F217cf2U1@uni-berlin.de...
>> (AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
>> "A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some
>> 5%
>> of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is
>> a
>> truly terrible statistic". (page 2)
>
> Dear Bob,
>
> I'm curious to know whether the study was a study of AA in
> Australia
> only ?

Yes

>Also, whether you have info on who conducted the survey
> and
> when; what, if any, explanations the researchers gave for people
> leaving groups and finally, what, if any recommendations they made
> concerning what groups ought to consider doing in order to try to
> encourage newcomers to stay ?

Guess that were you to contact GSO PO Box 255 Beaconsfield 2014
Australia, they may condescend to tell who they conracted for the
survey, also how that survey qualified as being "well conducted" My
experience was that the AA Archivist in New York at about that time
was infinitely more humble, and helpful.

There was considerable discussion about retaining newcomers. However,
my observation of the outcome of that survey is that AA increased
self promotion in the media. From that same document, Chairman's
opening address, "...Are we perhaps hiding behind the Eleventh
Tradition and waiting for everyone to come to us, rather than
engaging in slightly more aggressive promotion of our cause. ..."

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"[[]]" <[[]]@[[]].com> wrote in message
news:2004101917231375249%@com...
> On 2004-10-19 15:16:28 -0500, " rosie readandpost"
> <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> said:
>
>> :....................... I don't think in terms of being
>> "recovered
>> from alcoholism" any more
>> : than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
>> right-handedness" or
>> : being "recovered from being Caucasian."
>>
>>
>> on the button dan!
>> you will however, get an argument about your interpretation from
>> some...................i'm with you!
>
> with the fondest respect to you all, if ever find myself recovered,
> I'll be blowing this pop-stand of a newsgroup. But until then I'll
> keep coming back.
>


Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely
give themselves to this simple program Alcoholics Anonymous p58

[JB]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2tltdrF20os87U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cl3e5u$l68$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:2tkh12F217cf2U1@uni-berlin.de...
> >> (AA Around Australia. Spring Edition No 90. October 1994)
> >> "A well conducted professional study," (page19) that showed "some
> >> 5%
> >> of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This
is
> >> a
> >> truly terrible statistic". (page 2)
> >
> > Dear Bob,
> >
> > I'm curious to know whether the study was a study of AA in
> > Australia
> > only ?
>
> Yes
>
> >Also, whether you have info on who conducted the survey
> > and
> > when; what, if any, explanations the researchers gave for people
> > leaving groups and finally, what, if any recommendations they made
> > concerning what groups ought to consider doing in order to try to
> > encourage newcomers to stay ?
>
> Guess that were you to contact GSO PO Box 255 Beaconsfield 2014
> Australia, they may condescend to tell who they conracted for the
> survey, also how that survey qualified as being "well conducted" My
> experience was that the AA Archivist in New York at about that time
> was infinitely more humble, and helpful.
>
> There was considerable discussion about retaining newcomers.
However,
> my observation of the outcome of that survey is that AA increased
> self promotion in the media.

That's an interesting response. So GSO and/or the Trustees of AA do
not thnk it's necessary to try to discover how effectively individual
groups are "carrying (AA's) message to the alcoholic who still suffers
" (Tradition 5). Nor are they interested in knowing how effective is
the practice of making people attend AA.

ATB

JB

[[[]]]

> I am scared because I feel that not only am I powerless against alcohol once
> I start drinking, but also I feel powerless against it before I start, which
> causes me to drink. I can smell it, I can taste that smooth Chardonnay, I
> can feel it. I feel like I am programmed, a robot, and I end up at the
> liquor store, then at home again drinking, in spite of my resolve, and my
> vows, and everything.

Ian-I could see so much of myself in your message. Especially chilling
is your description of the trance-like mode you find yourself in as you
pick up that first drink again. Thank you for reminding me of this. I
need to believe the tools I've gathered in sobriety will protect me
from that.

Your admission of powerlessness is huge. Now you need to be willing to
ask for and get the help you need, as you've proven sobriety is
something you're unable to achieve on your own.

Your message shared here is such a huge gift for me. Thanks for being here.

-Steve

[coyote]

"[[]]" <[[]]@[[]].com> wrote in message news:2004102007330216807%@com...
> Ian-I could see so much of myself in your message. Especially chilling
> is your description of the trance-like mode you find yourself in as you
> pick up that first drink again. Thank you for reminding me of this. I
> need to believe the tools I've gathered in sobriety will protect me
> from that.
>
> Your admission of powerlessness is huge. Now you need to be willing to
> ask for and get the help you need, as you've proven sobriety is
> something you're unable to achieve on your own.
>
> Your message shared here is such a huge gift for me. Thanks for being
here.
>
> -Steve

Thank you for that, Steve. I am going to find a meeting to go to this
weekend. This group is like a meeting, a lifeline, for me, and I am
grateful to you and the others here. I am glad that my story was able to
remind you what it used to be like, and I hope that you (and I) never go
through it again. Right now, I am a lot more optimistic about your
continuing sobriety than mine.
Ian

[Clint g]

Hell yes use whatever is available to you. It's a chronic , progressive
illness that requires abstinence and treatment in order to recover. You
can do it.

[JB]

"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:-ZWdnfbWUaErauvcRVn-tQ@rogers.com...

> This group is like a meeting, a lifeline, for me, and I am
> grateful to you and the others here.

Hi Ian,

I've found not only this NG and f2f AA meetings helpful, but also an
AA on-line support group called e-aa. It has discussions rooms,
e-mail meetings and char rooms which , I believe are open 24 /7. If
you want to check it out:

www.e-aa.org

I know also about a new on-line AA group. I believe that this has the
potential to become a valuable resource for those seeking the AA route
to recovery. It's address is

www.aa-alcove.org

I wish you well

JB

[rosie readandpost]

"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:-ZWdnfbWUaErauvcRVn-tQ@rogers.com...
:...................... I am going to find a meeting to go to this
: weekend. This group is like a meeting, a lifeline, for me, and I
am
: grateful to you and the others here. I am glad that my story was
able to
: remind you what it used to be like, and I hope that you (and I)
never go
: through it again. Right now, I am a lot more optimistic about
your
: continuing sobriety than mine.
: Ian
:

ian,
i am sorry that i have not been able to keep up with the postings
here in ARAA, but i wanted to thank you also, for being so honest
with us, and reminding me, once again, where i come from.
i hope you are able to have that continued sobriety, ODAAT.

rosie

[rosie readandpost]

:
: "coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
: news:-ZWdnfbWUaErauvcRVn-tQ@rogers.com...
:
: > This group is like a meeting, a lifeline, for me, and I am
: > grateful to you and the others here.
:


ian,
i hope you will look into the AA INTERGROUP's online meetings:
http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
the email groups found within abide by the traditions of AA.

[rosie readandpost]

JB,
it has been my experience that people in AA groups that are part of
our AA service triangle (both F2F and EMAIL) "keep things simple,
protect others anonynimity, and generally are just kinder, more
knowledgeable folks.
i trust them to follow our AA guidelines.

this is my experience and i am just offering an alternative.




"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cl8ft1$d9r$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
:
: " rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
message
: news:ptOdd.185993$nA6.3201@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
:
: > ian,
: > i hope you will look into the AA INTERGROUP's online meetings:
: > http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
: > the email groups found within abide by the traditions of AA.
:
: I notice that this site carries details *only* of AA groups that
have
: *chosen* to join this particular intergroup:
:
: "The Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous® was formed to
serve
: all online AA® Groups in the rapidly growing online Fellowship.
OIAA
: is composed of elected representatives of those online AA groups
: wishing to participate. As the Fellowship of AA grows and
flourishes
: in this new medium of electronic communication, we will strive to
: provide whatever support we can offer to groups as they carry the
: message of recovery from alcoholism. We in OIAA are pleased to
have
: the opportunity to serve, and we strive to further unify the
: Fellowship of AA, both online and throughout the world"
: (Source: http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
:
: I have good reason to believe that AA groups which are not members
of
: aa-intergroup.org can prove to be as valuable a source of advice
and
: support as any AA group that is a member of it and that those that
I
: have mentioned - namely -
:
: www.e-aa.org and
:
: www.aa.aclove.org
:
: appear to operate according to AA's 12 Traditions.
:
: JB
:
:
: Maybe if the two groups I have mentioned are d i have ouprsyuabeI
:
:
:
:
:
: >
:
:

[JB]

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ptOdd.185993$nA6.3201@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

> ian,
> i hope you will look into the AA INTERGROUP's online meetings:
> http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
> the email groups found within abide by the traditions of AA.

I notice that this site carries details *only* of AA groups that have
*chosen* to join this particular intergroup:

"The Online Intergroup of Alcoholics Anonymous® was formed to serve
all online AA® Groups in the rapidly growing online Fellowship. OIAA
is composed of elected representatives of those online AA groups
wishing to participate. As the Fellowship of AA grows and flourishes
in this new medium of electronic communication, we will strive to
provide whatever support we can offer to groups as they carry the
message of recovery from alcoholism. We in OIAA are pleased to have
the opportunity to serve, and we strive to further unify the
Fellowship of AA, both online and throughout the world"
(Source: http://www.aa-intergroup.org/

I have good reason to believe that AA groups which are not members of
aa-intergroup.org can prove to be as valuable a source of advice and
support as any AA group that is a member of it and that those that I
have mentioned - namely -

www.e-aa.org and

www.aa.aclove.org

appear to operate according to AA's 12 Traditions.

JB


Maybe if the two groups I have mentioned are d i have ouprsyuabeI





>

[rosie readandpost]

JB,

you would be the LAST person i would give my site preferences to.
your behavior around here has not changed and i don't trust you.




"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cl8gab$451$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
: " rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
message
: news:ptOdd.185993$nA6.3201@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
: >
: >
: > :
: > : "coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
: > : news:-ZWdnfbWUaErauvcRVn-tQ@rogers.com...
: > :
: > : > This group is like a meeting, a lifeline, for me, and I am
: > : > grateful to you and the others here.
: > :
: >
: >
: > ian,
: > i hope you will look into the AA INTERGROUP's online meetings:
: > http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
: > the email groups found within abide by the traditions of AA.
: >
:
: Rosie,
:
: When was the last time you visited www.e-aa.org and
www.aa-alcove.org
: ?
:
: JB
:
: i
: >
:
:

[JB]

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ptOdd.185993$nA6.3201@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> :
> : "coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
> : news:-ZWdnfbWUaErauvcRVn-tQ@rogers.com...
> :
> : > This group is like a meeting, a lifeline, for me, and I am
> : > grateful to you and the others here.
> :
>
>
> ian,
> i hope you will look into the AA INTERGROUP's online meetings:
> http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
> the email groups found within abide by the traditions of AA.
>

Rosie,

When was the last time you visited www.e-aa.org and www.aa-alcove.org
?

JB

i
>

[JB]

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:GSPdd.29925$mR.28295@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> JB,
>
> you would be the LAST person i would give my site preferences to.
> your behavior around here has not changed and i don't trust you.

LOL.

If you have not looked in on either www.e-aa,org or www.aa-alcove.org
that's OK. Maybe only when court orders requiring compulsory
visiting these sites are issued, will anyone be compelled to visit
them :^)

JB
>
>
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cl8gab$451$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

> : Rosie,
> :
> : When was the last time you visited www.e-aa.org and
> www.aa-alcove.org
> : ?
> :
> : JB

[rosie readandpost]

YES, ime, it is always a good idea!




"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:cl8kbd$gjt$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
:
: " rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
message
: news:6PPdd.29924$mR.8848@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
: > JB,
: > it has been my experience that people in AA groups that are part
of
: > our AA service triangle (both F2F and EMAIL) "keep things
simple,
: > protect others anonynimity, and generally are just kinder, more
: > knowledgeable folks.
: > i trust them to follow our AA guidelines.
: >
: > this is my experience and i am just offering an alternative.
:
: After reading your post, I thought I'd check out whether e-aa.org
is
: mentioned at any website that links to
http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
: It is. As aa-alcove.org has been going for only two or three
weeks,
: I thought it unlikely that it would get a mention. In time, maybe
it
: will be thought a good idea for that group to become a member of
: aa-intergroup.org
:
: JB
:
:
:

[JB]

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6PPdd.29924$mR.8848@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> JB,
> it has been my experience that people in AA groups that are part of
> our AA service triangle (both F2F and EMAIL) "keep things simple,
> protect others anonynimity, and generally are just kinder, more
> knowledgeable folks.
> i trust them to follow our AA guidelines.
>
> this is my experience and i am just offering an alternative.

After reading your post, I thought I'd check out whether e-aa.org is
mentioned at any website that links to http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
It is. As aa-alcove.org has been going for only two or three weeks,
I thought it unlikely that it would get a mention. In time, maybe it
will be thought a good idea for that group to become a member of
aa-intergroup.org

JB

[JB]

" rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4UQdd.187751$nA6.1647@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> YES, ime, it is always a good idea!

What is "always a good idea" ?

JB

>
>
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:cl8kbd$gjt$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> :
> : " rosie readandpost" <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote in
> message
> : news:6PPdd.29924$mR.8848@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> : > JB,
> : > it has been my experience that people in AA groups that are part
> of
> : > our AA service triangle (both F2F and EMAIL) "keep things
> simple,
> : > protect others anonynimity, and generally are just kinder, more
> : > knowledgeable folks.
> : > i trust them to follow our AA guidelines.
> : >
> : > this is my experience and i am just offering an alternative.
> :
> : After reading your post, I thought I'd check out whether e-aa.org
> is
> : mentioned at any website that links to
> http://www.aa-intergroup.org/
> : It is. As aa-alcove.org has been going for only two or three
> weeks,
> : I thought it unlikely that it would get a mention. In time, maybe
> it
> : will be thought a good idea for that group to become a member of
> : aa-intergroup.org
> :
> : JB
> :
> :
> :
>
>

[John Droge]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:2tlu7qF222ul5U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "[[]]" <[[]]@[[]].com> wrote in message
> news:2004101917231375249%@com...
> > On 2004-10-19 15:16:28 -0500, " rosie readandpost"
> > <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> said:
> >
> >> :....................... I don't think in terms of being
> >> "recovered
> >> from alcoholism" any more
> >> : than would I think in terms of being "recovered from
> >> right-handedness" or
> >> : being "recovered from being Caucasian."
> >>
> >>
> >> on the button dan!
> >> you will however, get an argument about your interpretation from
> >> some...................i'm with you!
> >
> > with the fondest respect to you all, if ever find myself recovered,
> > I'll be blowing this pop-stand of a newsgroup. But until then I'll
> > keep coming back.
> >
>
>
> Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely
> give themselves to this simple program Alcoholics Anonymous p58
>
>

Bob
There you go doing it again. Every time I've got you seemingly absolutely
positively discarded as a reprobate curmudgeon--you go ahead and write the
right thing. Just can't tie me kangaroo down sport.
Peace
John

[John Droge]

"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
.. I work for the government, and we have an employee
> assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.
>
Little Wolf
No you shouldn't you use your EAP. Why should I be the only one who posts to
this ng who kissed off a 28 year career, the last 20 years of which to an
employer who would have sent me to treatment not just once but even twice if
I had just admitted I had a problem. I mean shit that kind of action really
fucks up your ability to drink.
No-- you should keep sticking your paw into that trap of a bottle and then
when your really good and stuck chew off your own leg so you can hobble off
and drink some more. Worked for me.
Peace
John

[coyote]

Thanks John. I'd almost laugh, if the substance of your message wasn't so
true, and so serious.

"John Droge" <jhdroge@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:SCZed.1005$kM.840@newsread3.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
>
> "coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
> . I work for the government, and we have an employee
> > assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.
> >
> Little Wolf
> No you shouldn't you use your EAP. Why should I be the only one who posts
to
> this ng who kissed off a 28 year career, the last 20 years of which to an
> employer who would have sent me to treatment not just once but even twice
if
> I had just admitted I had a problem. I mean shit that kind of action
really
> fucks up your ability to drink.
> No-- you should keep sticking your paw into that trap of a bottle and then
> when your really good and stuck chew off your own leg so you can hobble
off
> and drink some more. Worked for me.
> Peace
> John
>
>

[John Droge]

"coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:GN6dnXW5pLuBt-DcRVn-oQ@rogers.com...
> Thanks John. I'd almost laugh, if the substance of your message wasn't so
> true, and so serious.
>

Little Wolf

Like they say ---It is about Life and Death

Don't ya just hate it when the cliche' rings true?
Peace
John

> "John Droge" <jhdroge@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:SCZed.1005$kM.840@newsread3.news.pas.earthlin k.net...
> >
> > "coyote" <coyote2004@rogers.com> wrote in message
> > news:yvidnfcOJ6dvFuncRVn-gw@rogers.com...
> > . I work for the government, and we have an employee
> > > assistance plan. Should I use it? Thank you for any help.
> > >
> > Little Wolf
> > No you shouldn't you use your EAP. Why should I be the only one who
posts
> to
> > this ng who kissed off a 28 year career, the last 20 years of which to
an
> > employer who would have sent me to treatment not just once but even
twice
> if
> > I had just admitted I had a problem. I mean shit that kind of action
> really
> > fucks up your ability to drink.
> > No-- you should keep sticking your paw into that trap of a bottle and
then
> > when your really good and stuck chew off your own leg so you can hobble
> off
> > and drink some more. Worked for me.
> > Peace
> > John
> >
> >
>

[coyote]

Yes, life and death...I go back and forth between the two.

"John Droge" <jhdroge@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Rshfd.2452$kM.1899@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
>
> Little Wolf
>
> Like they say ---It is about Life and Death
>
> Don't ya just hate it when the cliche' rings true?
> Peace
> John
>