DRY DRUNK

[rosie readandpost]

putting the "plug in the jug" is only the beginning!

rosie








Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable. In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting out of
fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or withdrawals as weapons. When we act like a "dry drunk" it
should serve as a wake-up call, as a reminder that alcohol is but a symptom of underlying problems or character
defects -- taking away the alcohol does necessarily resolve any of those issues or problems. If we want to be able to
meet challenges calmly, honestly and squarely, we need to actually work the steps, to replace the old weapons with the
new tools of sobriety -- honest inventories, sincere admissions where we are at fault, prayers for guidance, and
meditation in which we listen for the answers.
Thoughts

Is our behavior sober that much different from our behavior while drinking? Have we been able to replace the old
weapons of rage and intimidation and withdrawal with the new tools of sobriety?

[rock ooont roll]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:10:05 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
<readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>putting the "plug in the jug" is only the beginning!
>
>rosie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable. In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting out of
>fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or withdrawals as weapons. When we act like a "dry drunk" it
>should serve as a wake-up call, as a reminder that alcohol is but a symptom of underlying problems or character
>defects -- taking away the alcohol does necessarily resolve any of those issues or problems. If we want to be able to
>meet challenges calmly, honestly and squarely, we need to actually work the steps, to replace the old weapons with the
>new tools of sobriety -- honest inventories, sincere admissions where we are at fault, prayers for guidance, and
>meditation in which we listen for the answers.
>Thoughts
>
>Is our behavior sober that much different from our behavior while drinking? Have we been able to replace the old
>weapons of rage and intimidation and withdrawal with the new tools of sobriety?
>
>
>
Hi Rosie:I was just wondering where this is. Is it in the bb? thanks.
JIm. btw im drinking again dammit.

[rosie readandpost]

jim,
i found this dry drunk explanation in a discussion group, i liked the definition!
it points out the danger involved with quitting drinking, but doing nothing else to change!

your drinking?
what happened?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

never let yesterday use up too much of today.
...........................anonymous



"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3f162353.26760109@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net.. .
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:10:05 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >putting the "plug in the jug" is only the beginning!
> >
> >rosie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable. In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting out
of
> >fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or withdrawals as weapons. When we act like a "dry drunk"
it
> >should serve as a wake-up call, as a reminder that alcohol is but a symptom of underlying problems or character
> >defects -- taking away the alcohol does necessarily resolve any of those issues or problems. If we want to be able
to
> >meet challenges calmly, honestly and squarely, we need to actually work the steps, to replace the old weapons with
the
> >new tools of sobriety -- honest inventories, sincere admissions where we are at fault, prayers for guidance, and
> >meditation in which we listen for the answers.
> >Thoughts
> >
> >Is our behavior sober that much different from our behavior while drinking? Have we been able to replace the old
> >weapons of rage and intimidation and withdrawal with the new tools of sobriety?
> >
> >
> >
> Hi Rosie:I was just wondering where this is. Is it in the bb? thanks.
> JIm. btw im drinking again dammit.
>

[rock ooont roll]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:24:24 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
<readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>jim,
>i found this dry drunk explanation in a discussion group, i liked the definition!
>it points out the danger involved with quitting drinking, but doing nothing else to change!
>
>your drinking?
>what happened?
>
>--
>read and post daily, it works!
>rosie
>
>never let yesterday use up too much of today.
>..........................anonymous
>
>
>
>"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3f162353.26760109@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net.. .
>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:10:05 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
>> <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >putting the "plug in the jug" is only the beginning!
>> >
>> >rosie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable. In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting out
>of
>> >fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or withdrawals as weapons. When we act like a "dry drunk"
>it
>> >should serve as a wake-up call, as a reminder that alcohol is but a symptom of underlying problems or character
>> >defects -- taking away the alcohol does necessarily resolve any of those issues or problems. If we want to be able
>to
>> >meet challenges calmly, honestly and squarely, we need to actually work the steps, to replace the old weapons with
>the
>> >new tools of sobriety -- honest inventories, sincere admissions where we are at fault, prayers for guidance, and
>> >meditation in which we listen for the answers.
>> >Thoughts
>> >
>> >Is our behavior sober that much different from our behavior while drinking? Have we been able to replace the old
>> >weapons of rage and intimidation and withdrawal with the new tools of sobriety?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> Hi Rosie:I was just wondering where this is. Is it in the bb? thanks.
>> JIm. btw im drinking again dammit.
>>
>
>
Yes i have been drinking for about a week now.I was sober for about
two weeks then i guess i got bored.Ive been in and out of aa for years
and never seem to stay sober for more than a few months.Im not working
and the future looks dim so i guess im trying to forget but things
actually get worse as you are probably aware.NO job, no
girlfriend,drinking,boy am i screwing up.I guess i still want to
believe that i can continue drinking without the other crap that goes
with it.Not sure what to do.You see ive been a printer for 25 years
and now technology has made me obsolete. Im 47 years old, how do you
do something different when my resume says ive done nothing else?Thank
God for employment insurance but that lasts only till January.Anyway i
dont think ill take a drink today i feel shitty from that mickey of
vodka i drank along with a couple of beers.Maybe ill go to a meeting
tomorrow,maybe ill just quit on my own.Frankly i dont think aa will
work for me,ive tried to work the program but havent had much success.
thanks for letting me ramble.
Jim

[rosie readandpost]

jim,
first things first............................you must decide whether or not you want to get sober.
then maybe some retraining?
i know a couple printers who now work with computers in the same shops that they were in before.
is that possible for you?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

never let yesterday use up too much of today.
...........................anonymous



"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3f172f6c.20782640@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net.. .
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:24:24 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >jim,
> >i found this dry drunk explanation in a discussion group, i liked the definition!
> >it points out the danger involved with quitting drinking, but doing nothing else to change!
> >
> >your drinking?
> >what happened?
> >
> >--
> >read and post daily, it works!
> >rosie
> >
> >never let yesterday use up too much of today.
> >..........................anonymous
> >
> >
> >
> >"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3f162353.26760109@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net.. .
> >> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:10:05 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> >> <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >putting the "plug in the jug" is only the beginning!
> >> >
> >> >rosie
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable. In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting
out
> >of
> >> >fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or withdrawals as weapons. When we act like a "dry
drunk"
> >it
> >> >should serve as a wake-up call, as a reminder that alcohol is but a symptom of underlying problems or character
> >> >defects -- taking away the alcohol does necessarily resolve any of those issues or problems. If we want to be
able
> >to
> >> >meet challenges calmly, honestly and squarely, we need to actually work the steps, to replace the old weapons with
> >the
> >> >new tools of sobriety -- honest inventories, sincere admissions where we are at fault, prayers for guidance, and
> >> >meditation in which we listen for the answers.
> >> >Thoughts
> >> >
> >> >Is our behavior sober that much different from our behavior while drinking? Have we been able to replace the old
> >> >weapons of rage and intimidation and withdrawal with the new tools of sobriety?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Hi Rosie:I was just wondering where this is. Is it in the bb? thanks.
> >> JIm. btw im drinking again dammit.
> >>
> >
> >
> Yes i have been drinking for about a week now.I was sober for about
> two weeks then i guess i got bored.Ive been in and out of aa for years
> and never seem to stay sober for more than a few months.Im not working
> and the future looks dim so i guess im trying to forget but things
> actually get worse as you are probably aware.NO job, no
> girlfriend,drinking,boy am i screwing up.I guess i still want to
> believe that i can continue drinking without the other crap that goes
> with it.Not sure what to do.You see ive been a printer for 25 years
> and now technology has made me obsolete. Im 47 years old, how do you
> do something different when my resume says ive done nothing else?Thank
> God for employment insurance but that lasts only till January.Anyway i
> dont think ill take a drink today i feel shitty from that mickey of
> vodka i drank along with a couple of beers.Maybe ill go to a meeting
> tomorrow,maybe ill just quit on my own.Frankly i dont think aa will
> work for me,ive tried to work the program but havent had much success.
> thanks for letting me ramble.
> Jim

[Blue Moon]

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:36:18 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
wrote:

>Frankly i dont think aa will
>work for me,ive tried to work the program but havent had much success.

Hi,

I'm curious to know what it was you tried doing. Maybe someone can
offer a pointer as to where you went wrong.

Given that the same actions will almost invariably result in the same
outcome, what's going to be different this time?

--
Blue Moon

[rock ooont roll]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:06:26 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:36:18 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
>wrote:
>
>>Frankly i dont think aa will
>>work for me,ive tried to work the program but havent had much success.
>
>Hi,
>
>I'm curious to know what it was you tried doing. Maybe someone can
>offer a pointer as to where you went wrong.
>
>Given that the same actions will almost invariably result in the same
>outcome, what's going to be different this time?
>
>--
>Blue Moon

Well i called the old sponsor today and told him i want to try again
and we talked for about an hour. He tells me i still dont have step
one yet and have to surrender totally or i will continue relapsing.
Went to a meeting tonight and heard some good stuff.I know that i
really need this program and must try and take the suggestions my
sponsor gives me and learn how to live without booze.I told my sponsor
i must have the world record for "coming back" and he laughed saying
im not even close. He told me about a guy who has had seven one=year
cakes! I still dont know why i keep going back to booze when it just
keeps getting worse.Sponsor told me i should call him every day and
not smoke pot anymore either.Im going to do that and go to as many
meetings as possible.As for the job situation the market is flooded
with computer graphics people and Im trying to get into web printing
which is what all the newspapers are done on.I must get sober though
or I wont feel capable of doing anything.Any suggestions ect. greatly
appreciated.I will try and post here daily.

jim

[Plug]

"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:3f177529.38636109@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net.. .
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:06:26 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:36:18 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
> >wrote:
> >
>
> Well i called the old sponsor today and told him i want to try again
> and we talked for about an hour. He tells me i still dont have step
> one yet and have to surrender totally or i will continue relapsing.
> Went to a meeting tonight and heard some good stuff.I know that i
> really need this program and must try and take the suggestions my
> sponsor gives me and learn how to live without booze.I told my sponsor
> i must have the world record for "coming back" and he laughed saying
> im not even close. He told me about a guy who has had seven one=year
> cakes! I still dont know why i keep going back to booze when it just
> keeps getting worse.Sponsor told me i should call him every day and
> not smoke pot anymore either

Hi Jim,
I agree with giving up pot smoking. I gave up drinking and several years
ago I gave up cigs - then I started smoking pot. (again) That made me start
smoking cigs and before I knew it, I was tempted to try booze again!! For
me they are all associated with each other so I needed to drop them all.
Gave up cigs about a month ago..can't even remember the day...with booze I
was counting down the hours.
>
..As for the job situation the market is flooded
> with computer graphics people and Im trying to get into web printing
> which is what all the newspapers are done on.
I have friends in computer programming and some of them (freelance) have
seen their salaries halved. Same in accountancy, especially for your/our
age group. I'm sorry you didn't get that job you applied for recently.
Life is tough - we have all got our burdens to carry - and we know booze is
not going to make things better, but every now and then it's nice to forget.
So I come on here, or I go for a walk in the park or I do something I hate
but needs doing, like ironing, so that when it's done I feel better.

>.I will try and post here daily.
Good idea. Take care,
Deb/Bubba

[rosie readandpost]

congrats on calling your sponsor.
that is terrific, and a great step in recovery.

surrendering was an action that i had more trouble with than i thought, but i learned.
when my sponsor gave me direction, i learned to follow it.
when my sponsor suggested that i increase my meetings, i learned to do just that.
when my sponsor suggested that i call other newcomers, make coffee, set up chairs, etc, i did it.

i thought the act of surrendering was going to be some GIANT task...............it wasn't.
it was many "little things".
it was telling myself the truth "about my way" and how "my way" never worked and it was time to follow some direction
and do it someone else's way.

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

dance like no one is watching, love like you'll never be hurt, sing like no one is listening, live like it's heaven on
earth."
...................................william purkey




"rock ooont roll" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:3f177529.38636109@shawnews.cg.shawcable.net.. .
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:06:26 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:36:18 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Frankly i dont think aa will
> >>work for me,ive tried to work the program but havent had much success.
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >I'm curious to know what it was you tried doing. Maybe someone can
> >offer a pointer as to where you went wrong.
> >
> >Given that the same actions will almost invariably result in the same
> >outcome, what's going to be different this time?
> >
> >--
> >Blue Moon
>
> Well i called the old sponsor today and told him i want to try again
> and we talked for about an hour. He tells me i still dont have step
> one yet and have to surrender totally or i will continue relapsing.
> Went to a meeting tonight and heard some good stuff.I know that i
> really need this program and must try and take the suggestions my
> sponsor gives me and learn how to live without booze.I told my sponsor
> i must have the world record for "coming back" and he laughed saying
> im not even close. He told me about a guy who has had seven one=year
> cakes! I still dont know why i keep going back to booze when it just
> keeps getting worse.Sponsor told me i should call him every day and
> not smoke pot anymore either.Im going to do that and go to as many
> meetings as possible.As for the job situation the market is flooded
> with computer graphics people and Im trying to get into web printing
> which is what all the newspapers are done on.I must get sober though
> or I wont feel capable of doing anything.Any suggestions ect. greatly
> appreciated.I will try and post here daily.
>
> jim

[Blue Moon]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:31:54 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
wrote:

>Well i called the old sponsor today and told him i want to try again
>and we talked for about an hour.

Sounds like a good move :)

>He tells me i still dont have step one yet

Indeed. In the meantime....

>have to surrender totally or i will continue relapsing.

Kind of hard to totally surrender when you don't know how, innit? So
here's how ... if you really want to stay sober I'd suggest you just
DO everything that's suggested. Don't matter if you really want to.
Doing what I want is easy. Willingness is really about doing stuff I
DON'T want to do.

I later came to realize that's really how I got sober. I bitched and
argued with my sponsor. Once or twice I even had an urge to hit him
and throw him out of my home. But somehow I knew he wasn't trying to
get at me, but help me. I realized it was my own thinking that was
the problem. So, despite my arguing, I restrained myself from hitting
him, and I DID everything he suggested I do.

>Sponsor told me i should call him every day and not smoke pot anymore
>either.Im going to do that and go to as many meetings as possible.

So long as you continue to follow directions, I see no reason why you
cannot recover. Just be confident those suggestions are coming from
someone who's worked the program - who's actually done exactly what
you're being told to do.

>As for the job situation the market is flooded with computer graphics
>people and Im trying to get into web printing which is what all the
>newspapers are done on.

I'm in a similar boat. I work in the computer industry, and I'd
honestly be grateful if I could get just half of what I was earning 18
months ago. You're not alone.

>I must get sober though or I wont feel capable of doing anything.

I'd agree that this needs to be the top priority.

--
Blue Moon

[xian]

This one time, on Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:15:59 GMT, Blue Moon
<mfoco@hotmail.com> said:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:31:54 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
>wrote:

>Doing what I want is easy. Willingness is really about doing stuff I
>DON'T want to do.

Hell, doing what *I* wanted got me into this mess in the first place.
Still can.

--
xian (at) simple world music (dot) com
"In everything and all I need, I know there's something in between
This simple world has more than I can see."

[Agent_Orange]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<yIRRa.15202$o27.246417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> congrats on calling your sponsor.
> that is terrific, and a great step in recovery.

>> Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable.
>> In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting out of
>> fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or
withdrawals as weapons.
>> ...

>> Well i called the old sponsor today and told him i want to try
again
>> and we talked for about an hour. He tells me i still dont have step
>> one yet and have to surrender totally or i will continue relapsing.
>> ...

>> surrendering was an action that i had more trouble with than i
thought, but i learned.
>> when my sponsor gave me direction, i learned to follow it.
>> when my sponsor suggested that i increase my meetings, i learned to
do just that.
>> when my sponsor suggested that i call other newcomers, make coffee,
set up chairs, etc, i did it.
>>
>> i thought the act of surrendering was going to be some GIANT
task...............it wasn't.
>> it was many "little things".
>> it was telling myself the truth "about my way" and how
>> "my way" never worked and it was time to follow some direction
>> and do it someone else's way.
>>
================

This is a prime example of what is wrong with A.A.: People who are
trying to save their own lives get fed a crock of cult religion bull
and misinformation rather than anything that remotely resembles the
truth.

The doctrine of "powerless over alcohol" is a fiction and a hoax.
If you were really powerless over alcohol, then you couldn't
ever quit drinking. See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-powerless.html

"The Dry Drunk" is another fiction, just a bogeyman
made up to scare the newcomers into doing Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps,
which have nothing to do with quitting drinking.
The Twelve Steps are nothing but a set of procedures for converting
people into members of a cult religion like Buchmanism.
That's why Frank Buchman developed them.
See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-drydrunk.html
and
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html

The doctrine of "complete surrender" is just another very common
standard cult characteristic -- surrender to the cult.
See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_q1.html#cq_surrender2cult
and
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-interp.html#Step3

The reason that people get sucked back into drinking is because
they feel cravings and imagine that they can do just a little bit,
just a couple to feel good, and it will be okay.
It has nothing to do with "doing it your way" or doing
it Bill Wilson's way, either.
Old base brain just wants its feel-goods and will say anything
to get what it wants. The trick is to learn not to be
fooled by that little voice.
See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-addmonst.html
for the story of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[rosie readandpost]

"Agent_Orange" <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote in message


> This is a prime example of what is wrong with A.A.:



if you feel that way, i suggest that you skip making AA a part of your recovery program.
:)

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

dance like no one is watching, love like you'll never be hurt, sing like no one is listening, live like it's heaven on
earth."
...................................william purkey




"Agent_Orange" <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote in message news:8e728989.0307201450.5ee403f9@posting.google.c om...
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<yIRRa.15202$o27.246417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> > congrats on calling your sponsor.
> > that is terrific, and a great step in recovery.
>
> >> Alcoholics who aren't drinking can still be extremely miserable.
> >> In "dry drunks" we exhibit old behavior, acting out of
> >> fear, trying to get our own way using rage, intimidation or
> withdrawals as weapons.
> >> ...
>
> >> Well i called the old sponsor today and told him i want to try
> again
> >> and we talked for about an hour. He tells me i still dont have step
> >> one yet and have to surrender totally or i will continue relapsing.
> >> ...
>
> >> surrendering was an action that i had more trouble with than i
> thought, but i learned.
> >> when my sponsor gave me direction, i learned to follow it.
> >> when my sponsor suggested that i increase my meetings, i learned to
> do just that.
> >> when my sponsor suggested that i call other newcomers, make coffee,
> set up chairs, etc, i did it.
> >>
> >> i thought the act of surrendering was going to be some GIANT
> task...............it wasn't.
> >> it was many "little things".
> >> it was telling myself the truth "about my way" and how
> >> "my way" never worked and it was time to follow some direction
> >> and do it someone else's way.
> >>

[Cartman]

"Agent_Orange" <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:8e728989.0307201450.5ee403f9@posting.google.c om...
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<yIRRa.15202$o27.246417@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...

<<HUGE SNIP>>

> This is a prime example of what is wrong with A.A.: People who are
> trying to save their own lives get fed a crock of cult religion bull
> and misinformation rather than anything that remotely resembles the
> truth.
>
> The doctrine of "powerless over alcohol" is a fiction and a hoax.
> If you were really powerless over alcohol, then you couldn't
> ever quit drinking. See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-powerless.html

Yes, we AAs will all be much better off following your preachings on your
website (which, by virtue of the fact that it is on the internet, must be
factually impeccable).

> "The Dry Drunk" is another fiction, just a bogeyman
> made up to scare the newcomers into doing Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps,
> which have nothing to do with quitting drinking.
> The Twelve Steps are nothing but a set of procedures for converting
> people into members of a cult religion like Buchmanism.
> That's why Frank Buchman developed them.
> See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-drydrunk.html
> and
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html

Babble, babble, babble.........oh, look......a link to really *honest* and
factually accurate website. I am SO glad you're here for all of us. Out of
curiosity, why haven't you taken it upon yourself to debunk the various
religions that people have *foolishly* been following for thousands of
years?

> The doctrine of "complete surrender" is just another very common
> standard cult characteristic -- surrender to the cult.
> See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_q1.html#cq_surrender2cult
> and
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-interp.html#Step3

Is this some reference to my homegroup asking me to sign over my house, car
and bank account and do chores around their houses (kidding of
course).......Another scare-tactic from the Omniscient Alco-Mentor, Agent
Orange.

> The reason that people get sucked back into drinking is because
> they feel cravings and imagine that they can ......<more blather>........
to learn not to be
> fooled by that little voice.
> See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-addmonst.html
> for the story of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.

Oh good, you've managed to personally write (or plagiarize) some extremely
convoluted psycho-babble on your "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster" page.
Is it even possible for you to comprehend that some of the unfortunates in
AA are in need of simple direction...Not the rantings of some throwback from
the 1960s that still has major peyote on the brain?

And, (Yes Finally), why don't you go to register.com and register a proper
dns entry for your site-of-sites?......something like
http://www.IhatereligionandAAandIammuchsmarterthanmillion sofpeople.com

As always, GFY!

- Cartman

P.S. How's your sobriety and smoking cessation going? Have you driven
everyone in your life crazy with compulsive behavior and the other DRY DRUNK
manifestations?

[Blue Moon]

On 20 Jul 2003 15:50:44 -0700, agent_orange@linuxmail.org
(Agent_Orange) wrote:

>The doctrine of "powerless over alcohol" is a fiction and a hoax.
>If you were really powerless over alcohol, then you couldn't
>ever quit drinking.

"Powerless over alcohol" means physical powerlessness to control or
moderate drinking. Very different from powerlessness over the first
drink, which is mental (and thus can be changed) rather than physical
(which can't ... or hasn't yet, despite the attempts of people to
change it (psychotherapy, pills, liver transplant, etc.)).

>"The Dry Drunk" is another fiction, just a bogeyman
>made up to scare the newcomers into doing Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps,
>which have nothing to do with quitting drinking.

Quite. That's what "detox" is for. The Steps have everything to do
with staying stopped though.

>The Twelve Steps are nothing but a set of procedures for converting
>people into members of a cult religion like Buchmanism.

So how does that explain why so many of the so-called cult members
never actually DO them?

>That's why Frank Buchman developed them.

He didn't. Buchman had nothing to do with the Steps. If you want to
accuse others (e.g. AA) of spouting lies, you might gain more
credibility by quitting the practice yourself first.

>The reason that people get sucked back into drinking is because
>they feel cravings and imagine that they can do just a little bit,
>just a couple to feel good, and it will be okay.

Indeed. This is referred to in the AA program as "insanity".

>Old base brain just wants its feel-goods and will say anything
>to get what it wants. The trick is to learn not to be
>fooled by that little voice.

Right again. This is what AA Steps 3 thru 12 are for.

--
Blue Moon

[Agent_Orange]

"Cartman" <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<HP2dnUbdO59904aiRTvU2Q@speakeasy.net>...
>> "Agent_Orange" <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
>> <<HUGE SNIP>>
>>
>> > This is a prime example of what is wrong with A.A.: People who are
>> > trying to save their own lives get fed a crock of cult religion bull
>> > and misinformation rather than anything that remotely resembles the
>> > truth.
>> >
>> > The doctrine of "powerless over alcohol" is a fiction and a hoax.
>> > If you were really powerless over alcohol, then you couldn't
>> > ever quit drinking. See:
>> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-powerless.html
>>
>> Yes, we AAs will all be much better off following your preachings on your
>> website (which, by virtue of the fact that it is on the internet, must be
>> factually impeccable).

You are really overusing the sarcasm propaganda technique. See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-propaganda.html#sarcasm
And if you read the rest of that file, you may learn some other propaganda
techniques that will work better for you.

>> > "The Dry Drunk" is another fiction, just a bogeyman
>> > made up to scare the newcomers into doing Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps,
>> > which have nothing to do with quitting drinking.
>> > The Twelve Steps are nothing but a set of procedures for converting
>> > people into members of a cult religion like Buchmanism.
>> > That's why Frank Buchman developed them.
>> > See:
>> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-drydrunk.html
>> > and
>> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html
>>
>> Babble, babble, babble.........oh, look......a link to really *honest* and
>> factually accurate website. I am SO glad you're here for all of us. Out of
>> curiosity, why haven't you taken it upon yourself to debunk the various
>> religions that people have *foolishly* been following for thousands of
>> years?

More sarcasm. You are in danger of turning into a Johnny One-Note.

I notice that you are long on anger and resentments, but short on facts.
The 12 Steps don't seem to have given you any Serenity or Gratitude...
If you have any actual facts to offer, let's hear them. Do you know
something important about the history and theology of The Oxford Group,
Frank Buchman, or Bill Wilson's writing of the Twelve Steps that I
have missed? If so, I'd love to hear it. What is it?
Again, see:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html

>> > The doctrine of "complete surrender" is just another very common
>> > standard cult characteristic -- surrender to the cult.
>> > See:
>> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_q1.html#cq_surrender2cult
>> > and
>> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-interp.html#Step3
>>
>> Is this some reference to my homegroup asking me to sign over my house, car
>> and bank account and do chores around their houses (kidding of
>> course).......Another scare-tactic from the Omniscient Alco-Mentor, Agent
>> Orange.

More sarcasm. Learn a new propaganda trick.

A.A. does not want your money. It wants your mind, your "Reason",
your "human intelligence", as well as your life, your "faith", and
your soul. Read chapter 4 of the Big Book where Bill Wilson wrote
in black and white that he wanted you to abandon human intelligence,
logic, and Reason. And also see:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religious_faith.html

Getting to keep your money is almost irrelevant after you have lost
everything else, although it is nice that A.A. does not stoop quite
as low as Scientology or the Moonies when it comes to exploiting
its members.

Oh by the way, one story in Rebecca Fransway's book "A.A. Horror
Stories" did describe a sponsor using his sponsees as unpaid labor
around his house. But I recognize that that is not the usual practice.

>> > The reason that people get sucked back into drinking is because
>> > they feel cravings and imagine that they can ......<more blather>
>> > ........ to learn not to be >> > fooled by that little voice.
>> > See:
>> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-addmonst.html
>> > for the story of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.
>>
>> Oh good, you've managed to personally write (or plagiarize) some extremely
>> convoluted psycho-babble on your "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster" page.
>> Is it even possible for you to comprehend that some of the unfortunates in
>> AA are in need of simple direction...Not the rantings of some throwback from
>> the 1960s that still has major peyote on the brain?

No plagiarism. I worked out my own addiction monster ideas during
the last 30 years of fighting to get off of tobacco. And then I
noticed how the craving machine works the same for tobacco and
alcohol. And the little voice in your head that whispers in your
ear that it will be okay to just have one is the same voice. And
you may consider that idea far-fetched, but Walt Disney didn't --
he made the cartoon with the little angel duck and little devil
duck, both talking into one of Donald's ears, and the little devil
was saying, "Smoke! Drink! It will be fun and it'll make a man
out of you!" It's all the same thing. I'm not the only one who
has noticed it.

Again, I see that you are not offering any facts to support
your opinions. You just make angry ad hominem attacks and
accusations, supported by nothing but hot air. See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-propaganda.html#ad_hominem

You claim that "the unfortunates in AA are in need of simple direction"...
How about telling them some simple truths, just for a change?
How about telling them that their odds of becoming a twenty-year
old-timer in A.A. are less than one in a thousand?
How about telling them that A.A. treatment doesn't work?

You assume that newcomers match the standard stereotype of "The
Alcoholic" who is incapable of thinking for himself and just needs
to be bossed around like a mindless slave.
That is the underlying fascism of Alcoholics Anonymous showing...
See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-us_stupid_drunks.html
Also see:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a3.html#ca_newcomers_wrong
and
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a0.html#ca_you_wrong
and
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a8.html#ca_fix_newcomers
for more on the "beginners are always wrong" attitude.

Your reference to peyote on the brain is funny, when you remember
that Bill Wilson got 4 sessions of tripping his brains out on
belladonna for many days in Towns' Hospital, while under the care
of Dr. Silkworth, and being "treated" for alcoholism with Charlie
Towns' quack cures. Belladonna is a far more dangerous and more
toxic hallucinogen than peyote, and it does really strange things
to people's brains. (I'm glad I never took it.)
And then Ebby Thacher and Rowland Hazard indoctrinated Bill with
all of the Oxford Group cult dogma while he was hospitalized and
whacked out of his gourd on belladonna and other drugs, and
mentally vulnerable.
How much of the goofy A.A. theology is due to those drug-induced
experiences? And how much of Bill Wilson's objectionable behavior
was due to brain damage -- both alcohol- and belladonna-induced
brain damage? See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-funny_spirituality.html#belladonna
Also see:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-funny_spirituality.html#brain_damage

>> And, (Yes Finally), why don't you go to register.com and register a proper
>> dns entry for your site-of-sites?......something like
>> http://www.IhatereligionandAAandIammuchsmarterthanmillion sofpeople.com</a>
>>
>> As always, GFY!
>> - Cartman

Thank you for showing us all what true A.A. spirituality is like.

By the way, I don't hate religion and I'm not an atheist. I just
object to cults hurting people. And I really object to some true
believers shoving voodoo medicine and ineffective quack cures on
sick people who are trying to save their own lives -- and using
judges, parole officers, and police to do it for them.
I also object, for the same reason, to Christian Scientists
refusing to take their sick children to a doctor. Having
religious beliefs is all fine and well, but somewhere, some
time, the religion should have some connection to reality and
show some real practical results. A.A. does not do that. A.A.
does not have a success rate, it has a failure rate. A.A. is
simply not a good treatment for alcoholism. See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-effectiveness.html

>> P.S. How's your sobriety and smoking cessation going? Have you driven
>> everyone in your life crazy with compulsive behavior and the other DRY DRUNK
>> manifestations?</pre>

My sobriety is going great. So is my breathing. How's yours?
I'm still off of both alcohol and tobacco, and loving it.
It's 2 and 3/4 years now.
And apparently, you are the only person that I have driven crazy.

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Michael Rapp]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 12:05:19 +0100, Dan Ballance <DanBallance@noSpamexcite.com>
wrote:
>i've heard people suggest that George Bush is a dry drunk. Would make
>a lot of sense,
>dan ;-)

LOL
you sure he's dry? :-)) :-))
Mike

[Cartman]

Agent Orange:

You don't have the power to drive me crazy.....I alone hold that power. Your
reference to my lack of empirical evidence is contantly followed by your
farcical "facts" on your website. And before you say "Ad
Hominem".........BULLSHIT. You have no facts that were not manufactured by
anti-AA propagandists or you (which are the same).Whenever I question the
validity of the data on your website or your statements, it's an "Ad
hominem" attack....BULLSHIT.

My serenity is AWESOME (but thanks for characterizing it
incorrectly).....it's awesome because I have a fellowship to relate
experiences with and learn from (primarily learn from).

Let me pose this question because, while you not driven me crazy, you do
leave me somewhat bewildered:

A man/woman nearly drinks themself into an early grave. After years (10 to
20+) of the same self-abuse, *something* happens which lands them in the
hospital/rehab/detox. What does this person do to stay clean once they leave
the institutional environment? I am curious as to what a person who has lost
everything (including rational decision making) does to get AND STAY
healthy. As I've stated previously, I hold no stock in AA. I have heard
mention of other programs which work. What does this person do?

- Cartman

"Agent_Orange" <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:8e728989.0307221055.1b6dd766@posting.google.c om...
> "Cartman" <omar_adebisi@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<HP2dnUbdO59904aiRTvU2Q@speakeasy.net>...
> >> "Agent_Orange" <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
> >> <<HUGE SNIP>>
> >>
> >> > This is a prime example of what is wrong with A.A.: People who are
> >> > trying to save their own lives get fed a crock of cult religion bull
> >> > and misinformation rather than anything that remotely resembles the
> >> > truth.
> >> >
> >> > The doctrine of "powerless over alcohol" is a fiction and a hoax.
> >> > If you were really powerless over alcohol, then you couldn't
> >> > ever quit drinking. See:
> >> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-powerless.html
> >>
> >> Yes, we AAs will all be much better off following your preachings on
your
> >> website (which, by virtue of the fact that it is on the internet, must
be
> >> factually impeccable).
>
> You are really overusing the sarcasm propaganda technique. See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-propaganda.html#sarcasm
> And if you read the rest of that file, you may learn some other propaganda
> techniques that will work better for you.
>
> >> > "The Dry Drunk" is another fiction, just a bogeyman
> >> > made up to scare the newcomers into doing Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps,
> >> > which have nothing to do with quitting drinking.
> >> > The Twelve Steps are nothing but a set of procedures for converting
> >> > people into members of a cult religion like Buchmanism.
> >> > That's why Frank Buchman developed them.
> >> > See:
> >> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-drydrunk.html
> >> > and
> >> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html
> >>
> >> Babble, babble, babble.........oh, look......a link to really *honest*
and
> >> factually accurate website. I am SO glad you're here for all of us. Out
of
> >> curiosity, why haven't you taken it upon yourself to debunk the various
> >> religions that people have *foolishly* been following for thousands of
> >> years?
>
> More sarcasm. You are in danger of turning into a Johnny One-Note.
>
> I notice that you are long on anger and resentments, but short on facts.
> The 12 Steps don't seem to have given you any Serenity or Gratitude...
> If you have any actual facts to offer, let's hear them. Do you know
> something important about the history and theology of The Oxford Group,
> Frank Buchman, or Bill Wilson's writing of the Twelve Steps that I
> have missed? If so, I'd love to hear it. What is it?
> Again, see:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html
>
> >> > The doctrine of "complete surrender" is just another very common
> >> > standard cult characteristic -- surrender to the cult.
> >> > See:
> >> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_q1.html#cq_surrender2cult
> >> > and
> >> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-interp.html#Step3
> >>
> >> Is this some reference to my homegroup asking me to sign over my house,
car
> >> and bank account and do chores around their houses (kidding of
> >> course).......Another scare-tactic from the Omniscient Alco-Mentor,
Agent
> >> Orange.
>
> More sarcasm. Learn a new propaganda trick.
>
> A.A. does not want your money. It wants your mind, your "Reason",
> your "human intelligence", as well as your life, your "faith", and
> your soul. Read chapter 4 of the Big Book where Bill Wilson wrote
> in black and white that he wanted you to abandon human intelligence,
> logic, and Reason. And also see:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religious_faith.html
>
> Getting to keep your money is almost irrelevant after you have lost
> everything else, although it is nice that A.A. does not stoop quite
> as low as Scientology or the Moonies when it comes to exploiting
> its members.
>
> Oh by the way, one story in Rebecca Fransway's book "A.A. Horror
> Stories" did describe a sponsor using his sponsees as unpaid labor
> around his house. But I recognize that that is not the usual practice.
>
> >> > The reason that people get sucked back into drinking is because
> >> > they feel cravings and imagine that they can ......<more blather>
> >> > ........ to learn not to be >> > fooled by that little voice.
> >> > See:
> >> > http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-addmonst.html
> >> > for the story of the Lizard Brain Addiction Monster.
> >>
> >> Oh good, you've managed to personally write (or plagiarize) some
extremely
> >> convoluted psycho-babble on your "The Lizard Brain Addiction Monster"
page.
> >> Is it even possible for you to comprehend that some of the unfortunates
in
> >> AA are in need of simple direction...Not the rantings of some throwback
from
> >> the 1960s that still has major peyote on the brain?
>
> No plagiarism. I worked out my own addiction monster ideas during
> the last 30 years of fighting to get off of tobacco. And then I
> noticed how the craving machine works the same for tobacco and
> alcohol. And the little voice in your head that whispers in your
> ear that it will be okay to just have one is the same voice. And
> you may consider that idea far-fetched, but Walt Disney didn't --
> he made the cartoon with the little angel duck and little devil
> duck, both talking into one of Donald's ears, and the little devil
> was saying, "Smoke! Drink! It will be fun and it'll make a man
> out of you!" It's all the same thing. I'm not the only one who
> has noticed it.
>
> Again, I see that you are not offering any facts to support
> your opinions. You just make angry ad hominem attacks and
> accusations, supported by nothing but hot air. See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-propaganda.html#ad_hominem
>
> You claim that "the unfortunates in AA are in need of simple direction"...
> How about telling them some simple truths, just for a change?
> How about telling them that their odds of becoming a twenty-year
> old-timer in A.A. are less than one in a thousand?
> How about telling them that A.A. treatment doesn't work?
>
> You assume that newcomers match the standard stereotype of "The
> Alcoholic" who is incapable of thinking for himself and just needs
> to be bossed around like a mindless slave.
> That is the underlying fascism of Alcoholics Anonymous showing...
> See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-us_stupid_drunks.html
> Also see:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a3.html#ca_newcomers_wrong
> and
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a0.html#ca_you_wrong
> and
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a8.html#ca_fix_newcomers
> for more on the "beginners are always wrong" attitude.
>
> Your reference to peyote on the brain is funny, when you remember
> that Bill Wilson got 4 sessions of tripping his brains out on
> belladonna for many days in Towns' Hospital, while under the care
> of Dr. Silkworth, and being "treated" for alcoholism with Charlie
> Towns' quack cures. Belladonna is a far more dangerous and more
> toxic hallucinogen than peyote, and it does really strange things
> to people's brains. (I'm glad I never took it.)
> And then Ebby Thacher and Rowland Hazard indoctrinated Bill with
> all of the Oxford Group cult dogma while he was hospitalized and
> whacked out of his gourd on belladonna and other drugs, and
> mentally vulnerable.
> How much of the goofy A.A. theology is due to those drug-induced
> experiences? And how much of Bill Wilson's objectionable behavior
> was due to brain damage -- both alcohol- and belladonna-induced
> brain damage? See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-funny_spirituality.html#belladonna
> Also see:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-funny_spirituality.html#brain_damage
>
> >> And, (Yes Finally), why don't you go to register.com and register a
proper
> >> dns entry for your site-of-sites?......something like
> >>
http://www.IhatereligionandAAandIammuchsmarterthanmillion sofpeople.com</a>
> >>
> >> As always, GFY!
> >> - Cartman
>
> Thank you for showing us all what true A.A. spirituality is like.
>
> By the way, I don't hate religion and I'm not an atheist. I just
> object to cults hurting people. And I really object to some true
> believers shoving voodoo medicine and ineffective quack cures on
> sick people who are trying to save their own lives -- and using
> judges, parole officers, and police to do it for them.
> I also object, for the same reason, to Christian Scientists
> refusing to take their sick children to a doctor. Having
> religious beliefs is all fine and well, but somewhere, some
> time, the religion should have some connection to reality and
> show some real practical results. A.A. does not do that. A.A.
> does not have a success rate, it has a failure rate. A.A. is
> simply not a good treatment for alcoholism. See:
> http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-effectiveness.html
>
> >> P.S. How's your sobriety and smoking cessation going? Have you driven
> >> everyone in your life crazy with compulsive behavior and the other DRY
DRUNK
> >> manifestations?</pre>
>
> My sobriety is going great. So is my breathing. How's yours?
> I'm still off of both alcohol and tobacco, and loving it.
> It's 2 and 3/4 years now.
> And apparently, you are the only person that I have driven crazy.
>
> * Agent Orange *
> * agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
> * AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
> * http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
> * Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
> * that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
> * he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Agent_Orange]

xian <clipskiREMOVE@veramark.com> wrote in message news:<8gcghvc482fco44it8j62bkb89tg4rafkt@4ax.com>...
> This one time, on Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:15:59 GMT, Blue Moon
> <mfoco@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 04:31:54 GMT, dingdong46@shaw.ca (rock ooont roll)
> >wrote:
>
> >Doing what I want is easy. Willingness is really about doing stuff I
> >DON'T want to do.
>
> Hell, doing what *I* wanted got me into this mess in the first place.
> Still can.

That is another mindless A.A. slogan.
So now you will not do what you want to do, because
you got into trouble before?

Do you want to live?
Do you want to be healthy?
Do you want to stay sober?

Obviously, you should not do those things, because
that's doing what you want to do.

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Bobby L.]

<snip - see above>
> My sobriety is going great. So is my breathing. How's yours?
> I'm still off of both alcohol and tobacco, and loving it.
> It's 2 and 3/4 years now.

So basically, Like myself and others, you're still new at this.

Bobby L

[Michael Rapp]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:31:24 +0100, Jonathan Bratt <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote:
>Maybe there's a Pretzel's Anonymous?
>--
>Jonathan Bratt
------------------
ROTFL - I thought of the pretzel bit right after I had posted my last, but that
one might just be part of the big picture.
Mike.

[Agent_Orange]

Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<0febecb16aeb5f6d33948e232d3d1d37@free.teranews.com >...
>> On 20 Jul 2003 15:50:44 -0700, agent_orange@linuxmail.org
>> (Agent_Orange) wrote:
>>
>> >The doctrine of "powerless over alcohol" is a fiction and a hoax.
>> >If you were really powerless over alcohol, then you couldn't
>> >ever quit drinking.
>>
>> "Powerless over alcohol" means physical powerlessness to control or
>> moderate drinking. Very different from powerlessness over the first
>> drink, which is mental (and thus can be changed) rather than physical
>> (which can't ... or hasn't yet, despite the attempts of people to
>> change it (psychotherapy, pills, liver transplant, etc.)).

Now personally, I agree with the idea that I am only powerless over
alcohol after I drink a bunch of it. But that is not what Bill Wilson
wrote, and that is not official A.A. dogma. Bill Wilson specifically
declared that you are powerless over alcohol, and no amount of "will
ower or self knowledge" will save you from taking that first drink,
and only surrendering to "Higher Power" (also known as "God", "bedpan",
or "Group Of Drunks") will save you from death by alcohol.

In the Big Book, Bill told the story of a new convert quoting him and Dr. Bob:

"I now remembered what my alcoholic friends [Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob]
had told me, how they had prophesied that if I had an alcoholic
mind, the time and place would come -- I would drink again. They had
said that though I did raise a defense, it would one day give way before
some trivial reason for having a drink. Well, just that did happen and
more, for what I had learned of alcoholism did not occur to me at all. I
knew from that moment that I had an alcoholic mind. I saw that will
power and self-knowledge would not help in those strange mental blank
spots. I had never been able to understand people who said that a
problem had them hopelessly defeated. I knew then. It was a crushing
blow."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More About
Alcoholism, pages 41-42.

And Bill added:

"Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental
defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor
any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must
come from a Higher Power."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 3, More
About Alcoholism, page 43.

So, according to Bill Wilson, you are "powerless over alcohol",
and simply cannot resist that first drink when your mind goes
blank, and that is why you must surrender "your will and your life"
to Doorknob Almighty, and hope that He will save you.

>> >"The Dry Drunk" is another fiction, just a bogeyman
>> >made up to scare the newcomers into doing Bill Wilson's Twelve Steps,
>> >which have nothing to do with quitting drinking.
>>
>> Quite. That's what "detox" is for. The Steps have everything to do
>> with staying stopped though.

Sorry, but the 12 steps have nothing to do with staying stopped.
The 12 steps don't even tell you to quit drinking or to stay sober, or
to help anyone else to quit drinking, either.

The 12 steps are all about converting people into true-believer
Buchmanites -- they are a concise summation of a program of
coercive persuasion. Compare them to Robert Lifton's, Margaret
Thaler Singer's, and Edward H. Schein's ideas of "thought reform"
or "brain-washing" programs:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cultinfo.html#comparison

>> >The Twelve Steps are nothing but a set of procedures for converting
>> >people into members of a cult religion like Buchmanism.
>>
>> So how does that explain why so many of the so-called cult members
>> never actually DO them?

It's a looser cult than some. And there are many different
ways that people can be indoctrinated with cult dogma, and
A.A. embodies many of them.

Another thing that works is just going to an endless series of
meetings where the dogma is constantly repeated, along with warnings
that you must believe this stuff and stay in this group or you will
die. (That is phobia induction, another standard cult practice.)
The meetings also add confession sessions or self-criticism
sessions to the stew, as well as constant haranguing about
how your thinking is defective and "alcoholic", and you
will die if you try to think for yourself. And then there
are the slogans -- thought-stopping cliches. And then there
is the loaded language -- in-group jargon and redefined words
all over the place.

Again, check out the short cheat sheet of coercive persuasion
techniques:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cultinfo.html#comparison

>> >That's why Frank Buchman developed them.
>>
>> He didn't. Buchman had nothing to do with the Steps. If you want to
>> accuse others (e.g. AA) of spouting lies, you might gain more
>> credibility by quitting the practice yourself first.

Wrong. Totally wrong. Go read about the history of A.A. and the
religious roots of the 12 steps:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-religiousroots.html

Frank Buchman developed the cult practices of the Oxford Group, and
Bill Wilson merely copied that stuff to make up the 12 steps.
Specifically, Bill Wilson wrote:

"Where did the early AAs find the material for the remaining ten Steps?
Where did we learn about moral inventory, amends for harm done,
turning our wills and lives over to God? Where did we learn about
meditation and prayer and all the rest of it? The spiritual substance of
our remaining ten Steps came straight from Dr. Bob's and my own earlier
association with the Oxford Groups, as they were then led in America by
that Episcopal rector, Dr. Samuel Shoemaker."
The Language of the Heart, William G. Wilson, page 298, published
posthumously in 1988.

(Bill was being deceptive there when he mentioned Shoemaker. Sam Shoemaker
was just the manager of the American branch of the Oxford Group. Bill
didn't want to use Buchman's name, because Frank Buchman was infamous,
and hated by many, for admiring and praising Adolf Hitler.)

Bill derived all of the steps directly from the practices of the Oxford Group.
And the Oxford Group was not about quitting drinking.
It was all about confessing your sins and surrendering to God-control
(or surrendering to Frank-control), and going to a zillion meetings.

Also remember that in the beginning, the Oxford Group cult religion
and Bill Wilson's group of drunks were the same thing. Bill's "group
of anonymous alcoholics" was just "the alcoholic squadron" of the
Oxford Group. When Bill and the Oxford Group parted company, very
little changed at first except that Bill and Bob were now the
leaders of the cult, instead of Frank Buchman.

Bill Wilson liked the Oxford Group cult so much that he cloned it
and made it his own cult. When Bill wrote the 12 steps, he was just
codifying the practices of the Oxford Group which they had been
doing all along.

The reason behind all of that is because Bill Wilson was convinced
that only obsession with religion would save people from alcoholism.
Bill believed that "the only radical remedy for dipsomania is
religiomania."

>> >The reason that people get sucked back into drinking is because
>> >they feel cravings and imagine that they can do just a little bit,
>> >just a couple to feel good, and it will be okay.
>>
>> Indeed. This is referred to in the AA program as "insanity".

Agreed in principle, but the "insanity" word is over-used in
A.A. "Sanity" is also used to mean things like "Sanity is living
according to God's Will, rather than one's own", and "insanity"
is doing what you want to do" (which adds a whole new twist to
Step Two, a twist that Bill Wilson fully intended).

But I totally agree that the way an alcoholic will rationalize
drinking and imagine that it will be okay is grossly unrealistic
irrational thinking.

>> >Old base brain just wants its feel-goods and will say anything
>> >to get what it wants. The trick is to learn not to be
>> >fooled by that little voice.
>>
>> Right again. This is what AA Steps 3 thru 12 are for.
>> --
>> Blue Moon

Sorry, but step 3 is for surrender to the cult,
steps 4 through 10 are for guilt induction, and
step 11 is for holding seances and channeling God like a
Shirley MacLaine on steroids, and
step 12 is for recruiting more cult members.

See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-interpreted.html


* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Agent_Orange]

xian <clipskiREMOVE@veramark.com> wrote in message news:<nof0ivocukkgmfgofe7u0hi0njinuga4iv@4ax.com>...
> This one time, on 24 Jul 2003 13:03:48 -0700,
> agent_orange@linuxmail.org (Agent_Orange) said:
>
> >xian <clipskiREMOVE@veramark.com> wrote in message news:<8gcghvc482fco44it8j62bkb89tg4rafkt@4ax.com>...
>
> >> Hell, doing what *I* wanted got me into this mess in the first place.
> >> Still can.
>
> >That is another mindless A.A. slogan.
> >So now you will not do what you want to do, because
> >you got into trouble before?
> >
> >Do you want to live?
> >Do you want to be healthy?
> >Do you want to stay sober?
> >
> >Obviously, you should not do those things, because
> >that's doing what you want to do.
>
> You're over-generalizing to argue your point.
>
> What I'm saying is that with regards to alcohol, what I want to do is
> not what is best for me. Does that make more sense? If not, let me
> know.

Do, it really doesn't make sense.
What I want to do with alcohol now is just what
I am doing -- not drink it -- avoid it like the
plague -- treat it like a poison that will kill
me.

The whole idea that you should not do what you
want to do is the tip of an iceberg -- a giant
mess of cultish dogma that says that you your
desires are evil, and you cannot
trust your own thinking, that your thinking is
"alcoholic", that you are so flawed and defective
and have so many moral shortcomings that only
"God" or "Higher Power" can remove the defects.

See:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-us_stupid_drunks.html

Also see "Newcomers can't think right":
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a3.html#ca_newcomers_wrong

and "Don't trust your own mind":
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cult_a6.html#ca_dont_trust_mind

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Otto]

In article <8e728989.0307251459.679b2e1@posting.google.com>,
Agent_Orange <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> wrote:

> xian <clipskiREMOVE@veramark.com> wrote in message
> news:<nof0ivocukkgmfgofe7u0hi0njinuga4iv@4ax.com>...
> > This one time, on 24 Jul 2003 13:03:48 -0700,
> > agent_orange@linuxmail.org (Agent_Orange) said:
> >
> > >xian <clipskiREMOVE@veramark.com> wrote in message
> > >news:<8gcghvc482fco44it8j62bkb89tg4rafkt@4ax.com>...
> >
> > >> Hell, doing what *I* wanted got me into this mess in the first place.
> > >> Still can.
> >
> > >That is another mindless A.A. slogan.
> > >So now you will not do what you want to do, because
> > >you got into trouble before?
> > >
> > >Do you want to live?
> > >Do you want to be healthy?
> > >Do you want to stay sober?
> > >
> > >Obviously, you should not do those things, because
> > >that's doing what you want to do.
> >
> > You're over-generalizing to argue your point.
> >
> > What I'm saying is that with regards to alcohol, what I want to do is
> > not what is best for me. Does that make more sense? If not, let me
> > know.
>
> Do, it really doesn't make sense.
> What I want to do with alcohol now is just what
> I am doing -- not drink it -- avoid it like the
> plague -- treat it like a poison that will kill
> me.
>
> The whole idea that you should not do what you
> want to do is the tip of an iceberg -- a giant
> mess of cultish dogma that says that you your
> desires are evil, and you cannot
> trust your own thinking, that your thinking is
> "alcoholic", that you are so flawed and defective
> and have so many moral shortcomings that only
> "God" or "Higher Power" can remove the defects.

If anything like that might be the case, regarding yourself, as you see
and know it. Otherwise, there are plenty of other folks in different
states and situations. Just as the BB plainly explains it.

--
"There are types entirely normal in every respect except in the effect alcohol
has upon them. They are often able, intelligent, friendly people." Dr.
Silkworth

[xian]

This one time, on 25 Jul 2003 15:59:09 -0700,
agent_orange@linuxmail.org (Agent_Orange) said:


>Do, it really doesn't make sense.
>What I want to do with alcohol now is just what
>I am doing -- not drink it -- avoid it like the
>plague -- treat it like a poison that will kill
>me.
>
>The whole idea that you should not do what you
>want to do is the tip of an iceberg -- a giant
>mess of cultish dogma that says that you your
>desires are evil, and you cannot
>trust your own thinking, that your thinking is
>"alcoholic", that you are so flawed and defective
>and have so many moral shortcomings that only
>"God" or "Higher Power" can remove the defects.

Let's try it this way:

***

Sometimes doing what you want to do is bad for you.

For example, I *want* to leave work and go home and sleep. That is
what I want, but it would result in me losing my job, which I consider
to be bad for me. Therefore I should not do what I want in that
situation.

I *want* to have a drink, but that would result in me having another
and another, which I consider to be bad for me. Therefore I should
not do what I want in that situation.

I *want* to be able to drink socially and control it, but I can't. I
have tried and failed enough times to be able to make that call.

I don't eat lobster because I don't *want* to; I don't have to "avoid
it like the plague" to continue not eating it.

***

The whole idea that you *should* do what you want is a cultish dogma
that was made popular by Aleister Crowley: "Do what thou wilt shall be
the whole of the law".
(this was a parody of your second paragraph up there)

Your arguments are not really very good, although they do get across
the point that you don't approve of AA.

I am not a member of AA.
--
xian
www.simpleworldmusic.com
simpleworld - we're not a religion, we're a rock band