According to the araa FAQ, it's better not to discuss these

[H.P. Gawd]

IMO, a really good selection that needs to be
quite regularly.

>A.A. is a religion [leaving 'religion' undefined]

Without a doubt it is. Here is the definition: "Religion
is belief in and reverence for a supernatural power".
Does "HP" thing ring the bell?

>I recovered from alcoholism and can still drink

I don't yet but it's certainly possible. Read biographies
of every other 1970s and 1980s rock star as the easiest
way of finding it out.

>A.A. is just a bandaid and doesn't handle the root problem

Of course. If it were not, it would have be more
effective than it is. As of now, its efficacy is ranked
low 35-39th place, right between "psychedelic medication"
and "video self-confrontation".
Reference:
WR Miller, Wilbourne. Mesa Grande: a methodological analysis
of clinical trials of treatments for alcohol use disorders.
Addiction, 97:265–7, 2002. (The paper is a meta analytsis
of 361 existing controlled studies of various treatments,
both clinical and not).

>There would have to be some changes in A.A. before I'd join

You bet!

>I'm not powerless

Depends. In general, nobody is powerless.

>Derisive comments about the newsgroup itself

What's wrong with keeping up with finest Usenet
standards? Jeez, this thing is 30 years old and
*does* have its traditions!

>Cross-link in posts from other newsgroups, like alt.atheism

Please _always_ cross-post when it is on-topic in another
newsgroup. That's how Usnet was designed! (For example,
anything that concerns "alcoholism" and "AA" is on-topic
in alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism).

>Post about non-recovery related items

Moot point. Nobody posts about recovery items anyway.

>I'm an atheist, so A.A.'s not for me!

Not necessarily but overwhelmingly so.

>Non-alcoholic beer/wine helps me stay sober

According to the modern science, drinking non-alcoholic
beverages should help your brain to "unlearn" the
connection between intoxication and the taste and the
process of drinking. Thus greatly decreasing cravings
and the chance of relapsing. The same approach has been
proved to be successful in dealing with nicotine addiction.
Try before you discount its potential!

>You're not really recovered if you're still smoking.

Sounds really strange. Someone actually ever said it?

>Probably any post that's a judgment about 'you'

There is absolutely nothing wrong with judgig "me".
And "me" is not fundamentally different from "you".
So, judge away - hearing what people think helps to find
the truth.

HP-G

[Mias]

Dear Gawd
Active participation in a support group can contribute to long-term
recovery.
Project MATCH and other studies in the 1990s definitively proved that AA can
be an active ingredient of treatment both during a professional intervention
and afterward, depending on the patient's type of therapy. Patients who
joined the AA fellowship or who had an AA sponsor after receiving
twelve-step facilitation therapy had better abstinence records than those
who received an intervention but did not continue their AA participation
upon completion. Other research indicates AA participation may be less
effective for patients who receive cognitive behavior therapy because the
programs have different goals that may confuse patients.

What researchers still don't understand, however, are the precise mechanisms
of AA participation. While AA affiliation is associated with self-efficacy,
motivation and coping efforts, all significant predictors of good outcome
following a professional intervention, some studies have shown that patients
who adopt more of the fellowship's basic tenets - such as acknowledging that
alcoholism is a disease, admission of their powerlessness over alcohol and
working the twelve steps of the program - relapse at the same rates as
patients who adopt very few. This suggests that the active ingredient may be
less about AA per se than continuing participation in support groups (both
twelve-step and non twelve-step) that promote a lifestyle inconsistent with
the problematic use of alcohol and other drugs.

Kind regards

Mias

"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
news:rg2ig099knpa0g8oq9c7jc9cmol7pp6uqi@4ax.com...
> IMO, a really good selection that needs to be
> quite regularly.
>
> >A.A. is a religion [leaving 'religion' undefined]
>
> Without a doubt it is. Here is the definition: "Religion
> is belief in and reverence for a supernatural power".
> Does "HP" thing ring the bell?
>
> >I recovered from alcoholism and can still drink
>
> I don't yet but it's certainly possible. Read biographies
> of every other 1970s and 1980s rock star as the easiest
> way of finding it out.
>
> >A.A. is just a bandaid and doesn't handle the root problem
>
> Of course. If it were not, it would have be more
> effective than it is. As of now, its efficacy is ranked
> low 35-39th place, right between "psychedelic medication"
> and "video self-confrontation".
> Reference:
> WR Miller, Wilbourne. Mesa Grande: a methodological analysis
> of clinical trials of treatments for alcohol use disorders.
> Addiction, 97:265-7, 2002. (The paper is a meta analytsis
> of 361 existing controlled studies of various treatments,
> both clinical and not).
>
> >There would have to be some changes in A.A. before I'd join
>
> You bet!
>
> >I'm not powerless
>
> Depends. In general, nobody is powerless.
>
> >Derisive comments about the newsgroup itself
>
> What's wrong with keeping up with finest Usenet
> standards? Jeez, this thing is 30 years old and
> *does* have its traditions!
>
> >Cross-link in posts from other newsgroups, like alt.atheism
>
> Please _always_ cross-post when it is on-topic in another
> newsgroup. That's how Usnet was designed! (For example,
> anything that concerns "alcoholism" and "AA" is on-topic
> in alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism).
>
> >Post about non-recovery related items
>
> Moot point. Nobody posts about recovery items anyway.
>
> >I'm an atheist, so A.A.'s not for me!
>
> Not necessarily but overwhelmingly so.
>
> >Non-alcoholic beer/wine helps me stay sober
>
> According to the modern science, drinking non-alcoholic
> beverages should help your brain to "unlearn" the
> connection between intoxication and the taste and the
> process of drinking. Thus greatly decreasing cravings
> and the chance of relapsing. The same approach has been
> proved to be successful in dealing with nicotine addiction.
> Try before you discount its potential!
>
> >You're not really recovered if you're still smoking.
>
> Sounds really strange. Someone actually ever said it?
>
> >Probably any post that's a judgment about 'you'
>
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with judgig "me".
> And "me" is not fundamentally different from "you".
> So, judge away - hearing what people think helps to find
> the truth.
>
> HP-G
>

[Mias]

Dear Gawd
Effective Professional Interventions
The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism has established
through years of clinical research the effectiveness of the following
interventions to treat alcohol problems. Professional delivery of these
interventions follows established protocols that have been published in
manual form.

Cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) primarily targets alcohol-dependent
individuals. It assumes that alcoholism is learned problematic behavior that
begins and continues with the patient's distorted belief that alcohol helps
him or her cope with stress. CBT therapists usually try to change how a
patient thinks about alcohol, and to assist a patient in identifying
stressful situations and alternative ways of coping with these situations.
CBT allows patients to establish the goals of treatment. These can range
from controlled drinking to abstinence.

Motivational enhancement therapy (MET) targets all problem drinkers,
including alcohol dependent individuals. It is based on principles of
motivational psychology and focuses on increasing a patient's internal
motivation to change his or her drinking behavior. MET doesn't try to guide
the patient through recovery step-by-step. Instead, it uses objective
feedback and empathic listening techniques to influence positive change. MET
is a less intensive intervention, requiring only four sessions to complete.

Twelve-step facilitation therapy (TSF) primarily targets alcohol dependent
individuals. It is grounded in the concept of alcoholism as spiritual and
medical disease. Patients are encouraged to accept an alcoholic identity and
to become involved in support group activities (going to Alcoholics
Anonymous meetings, getting a sponsor and working the 12 steps of AA).
Abstinence is the goal of TSF.

Behavioral marital therapy (BMT) and other couples and family therapies
primarily target alcohol-dependent individuals. They recognize that spouses,
significant others and family members of patients being treated for
alcoholism can play a critical role in recovery. These therapies seek to
enhance communication between couples and among family members to improve
the functioning of relationships. This leads to longer retention in
treatment for patients, longer periods of abstinence among patients, and
less anxiety and enabling behavior among non-alcoholic spouses, significant
others and family members.

Sources: Project MATCH Research Group. 1997; National Institute on Alcohol
Abuse and Alcoholism. 2003. List of Alcohol Interventions for Substance
Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration Science-To-Service
Collaboration (personal communication

Kind regards
Mias
"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
news:rg2ig099knpa0g8oq9c7jc9cmol7pp6uqi@4ax.com...
> IMO, a really good selection that needs to be
> quite regularly.
>
> >A.A. is a religion [leaving 'religion' undefined]
>
> Without a doubt it is. Here is the definition: "Religion
> is belief in and reverence for a supernatural power".
> Does "HP" thing ring the bell?
>
> >I recovered from alcoholism and can still drink
>
> I don't yet but it's certainly possible. Read biographies
> of every other 1970s and 1980s rock star as the easiest
> way of finding it out.
>
> >A.A. is just a bandaid and doesn't handle the root problem
>
> Of course. If it were not, it would have be more
> effective than it is. As of now, its efficacy is ranked
> low 35-39th place, right between "psychedelic medication"
> and "video self-confrontation".
> Reference:
> WR Miller, Wilbourne. Mesa Grande: a methodological analysis
> of clinical trials of treatments for alcohol use disorders.
> Addiction, 97:265-7, 2002. (The paper is a meta analytsis
> of 361 existing controlled studies of various treatments,
> both clinical and not).
>
> >There would have to be some changes in A.A. before I'd join
>
> You bet!
>
> >I'm not powerless
>
> Depends. In general, nobody is powerless.
>
> >Derisive comments about the newsgroup itself
>
> What's wrong with keeping up with finest Usenet
> standards? Jeez, this thing is 30 years old and
> *does* have its traditions!
>
> >Cross-link in posts from other newsgroups, like alt.atheism
>
> Please _always_ cross-post when it is on-topic in another
> newsgroup. That's how Usnet was designed! (For example,
> anything that concerns "alcoholism" and "AA" is on-topic
> in alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism).
>
> >Post about non-recovery related items
>
> Moot point. Nobody posts about recovery items anyway.
>
> >I'm an atheist, so A.A.'s not for me!
>
> Not necessarily but overwhelmingly so.
>
> >Non-alcoholic beer/wine helps me stay sober
>
> According to the modern science, drinking non-alcoholic
> beverages should help your brain to "unlearn" the
> connection between intoxication and the taste and the
> process of drinking. Thus greatly decreasing cravings
> and the chance of relapsing. The same approach has been
> proved to be successful in dealing with nicotine addiction.
> Try before you discount its potential!
>
> >You're not really recovered if you're still smoking.
>
> Sounds really strange. Someone actually ever said it?
>
> >Probably any post that's a judgment about 'you'
>
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with judgig "me".
> And "me" is not fundamentally different from "you".
> So, judge away - hearing what people think helps to find
> the truth.
>
> HP-G
>

[Ted L.]

"Mias" <emiasno@spamnetactivetome.co.za> wrote in message
news:cebeib$1av$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...

> Other research indicates AA participation may be less
> effective for patients who receive cognitive behavior therapy because the
> programs have different goals that may confuse patients.
>

Gee, I wonder what those different goals might be.


--
Ted L.

Benedictus, qui venit in nomine Domini.

[Mias]

Dear Gawd
Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to say that my name is Mias and
that with the Grace of my HP and Alcoholics Anonymous I have been clean and
sober for 15 years now. Very happy years they were as well. I owe AA my life
and for that I am forever grateful. AA did not lead me into Heaven but they
opened the gates of hell so that I could choose to come out. Heaven lies
somewhere outside hell...It is a wonderful fellowship and, if note is taken
of the traditions, probably the most harmonious gathering of boozers
anywhere. I personally have searched for serenity and sobriety my whole life
and that I found through AA. I thank God for AA and thank AA for God.
Plastic 'grace' has never satisfied my soul. That I found in a bottle and
became feeble.It is however easy to recognize truth when it presnts itself.
They say that those who have been too hell is first to recognize Heaven.
That I did.
Kind regards
Mias
"H.P. Gawd" <hpgawd@non-anonymous.org> wrote in message
news:rg2ig099knpa0g8oq9c7jc9cmol7pp6uqi@4ax.com...
> IMO, a really good selection that needs to be
> quite regularly.
>
> >A.A. is a religion [leaving 'religion' undefined]
>
> Without a doubt it is. Here is the definition: "Religion
> is belief in and reverence for a supernatural power".
> Does "HP" thing ring the bell?
>
> >I recovered from alcoholism and can still drink
>
> I don't yet but it's certainly possible. Read biographies
> of every other 1970s and 1980s rock star as the easiest
> way of finding it out.
>
> >A.A. is just a bandaid and doesn't handle the root problem
>
> Of course. If it were not, it would have be more
> effective than it is. As of now, its efficacy is ranked
> low 35-39th place, right between "psychedelic medication"
> and "video self-confrontation".
> Reference:
> WR Miller, Wilbourne. Mesa Grande: a methodological analysis
> of clinical trials of treatments for alcohol use disorders.
> Addiction, 97:265-7, 2002. (The paper is a meta analytsis
> of 361 existing controlled studies of various treatments,
> both clinical and not).
>
> >There would have to be some changes in A.A. before I'd join
>
> You bet!
>
> >I'm not powerless
>
> Depends. In general, nobody is powerless.
>
> >Derisive comments about the newsgroup itself
>
> What's wrong with keeping up with finest Usenet
> standards? Jeez, this thing is 30 years old and
> *does* have its traditions!
>
> >Cross-link in posts from other newsgroups, like alt.atheism
>
> Please _always_ cross-post when it is on-topic in another
> newsgroup. That's how Usnet was designed! (For example,
> anything that concerns "alcoholism" and "AA" is on-topic
> in alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism).
>
> >Post about non-recovery related items
>
> Moot point. Nobody posts about recovery items anyway.
>
> >I'm an atheist, so A.A.'s not for me!
>
> Not necessarily but overwhelmingly so.
>
> >Non-alcoholic beer/wine helps me stay sober
>
> According to the modern science, drinking non-alcoholic
> beverages should help your brain to "unlearn" the
> connection between intoxication and the taste and the
> process of drinking. Thus greatly decreasing cravings
> and the chance of relapsing. The same approach has been
> proved to be successful in dealing with nicotine addiction.
> Try before you discount its potential!
>
> >You're not really recovered if you're still smoking.
>
> Sounds really strange. Someone actually ever said it?
>
> >Probably any post that's a judgment about 'you'
>
> There is absolutely nothing wrong with judgig "me".
> And "me" is not fundamentally different from "you".
> So, judge away - hearing what people think helps to find
> the truth.
>
> HP-G
>

[Virtualoso]

"Mias" <emiasno@spamnetactivetome.co.za> wrote in message news:<cebeib$1av$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>...
> Active participation in a support group can contribute to long-term
> recovery.
> Project MATCH and other studies in the 1990s definitively proved that AA can
> be an active ingredient of treatment both during a professional intervention
> and afterward, depending on the patient's type of therapy. Patients who
> joined the AA fellowship or who had an AA sponsor after receiving
> twelve-step facilitation therapy had better abstinence records than those
> who received an intervention but did not continue their AA participation
> upon completion. Other research indicates AA participation may be less
> effective for patients who receive cognitive behavior therapy because the
> programs have different goals that may confuse patients.

"May" or maybe not. Studies have shown that "educational" based
"therapies" are among the worst in terms of results.

> What researchers still don't understand, however, are the precise mechanisms
> of AA participation. While AA affiliation is associated with self-efficacy,
> motivation and coping efforts, all significant predictors of good outcome
> following a professional intervention, some studies have shown that patients
> who adopt more of the fellowship's basic tenets - such as acknowledging that
> alcoholism is a disease, admission of their powerlessness over alcohol and
> working the twelve steps of the program - relapse at the same rates as
> patients who adopt very few. This suggests that the active ingredient may be
> less about AA per se than continuing participation in support groups (both
> twelve-step and non twelve-step) that promote a lifestyle inconsistent with
> the problematic use of alcohol and other drugs.

But researchers still don't actually understand. Opinions abound,
regardless.