The obsession to drink can return like a thief in the night.

[errol9]

This guy George Best a famous football player from my home town had a liver
transplant three years ago to save his life. He hit the bottle a month ago.
Its only because George Best is famous that his name is in the paper. Most
of us in AA know if we drink we die in obscurity without hardly anyone
knowing about us. (Story in website below). Errol

Best arrest over pub 'assault' Press Association
Sunday July 13, 2003 8:08 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2902163,00.html

AA Thought for the Day

July 11, 2003 (Scroll down for share)

First Drink

Many of us, when we first began to drink,
never wanted or took more than one or two drinks.
But as time went on, we increased the number.
Then, in later years, we found ourselves
drinking more and more,
some of us getting and staying very drunk.
Maybe our condition didn't always show
in our speech or our gait,
but by this time we were never actually sober.

Reprinted from Living Sober, Page 4, with permission of A.A. World Services,
Inc.

[Virtualoso]

In article <fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com>, GaryE
<garyexxx@swbell.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:42:29 +0000, errol9 <errol9@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >This guy George Best a famous football player from my home town had a liver
> >transplant three years ago to save his life. He hit the bottle a month ago.
> >Its only because George Best is famous that his name is in the paper. Most
> >of us in AA know if we drink we die in obscurity without hardly anyone
> >knowing about us. (Story in website below).

> Errol, this is bullshit of course. It's another control mechanism
> which unfortunately people in AA use as such. Spread the fear, not
> the joy. Accentuate the negative. The 'obsession to drink returns
> like a thief in the night?:" C'mon. It's pure premediatated drinking
> for whatever reason a person feels they need to get out of life's
> stresses and strains. When I was a kid, I heard that booze was an
> 'escape' mechanism. Now that I am older, it makes even more sense.
> When someone decides to drink again after being sober, let's hang them
> up for everyone to see so we can scare the hell out of them...and
> prove to ourselves that we are better than that...right? Rigorous
> honesty, now.
>
> We all need a little fear once in a while but in AA, it's an art form.

It¹s a bit like that the psychiatrists that tell us that ³depression²
is something people do choose to do, as well, as much as otherwise,
despite the misconception of calling it a "disease." While, broadly,
it¹s acknowledged that people do not have a lot of direct, immediate
control over certain kinds of subjective, interiorly ³felt² experience,
at the same time quite a few people tend to regard other, more chosen,
deliberate acts as also being such ³feelings,² too. Like
thoughts/thinking, attitudes, impulses, behaviors, etc. Yet, many of
these are certainly among the volitional and optional, and are known to
be contributing ways of how people ³depress² themselves, including as
their known way of getting out of some of life¹s stresses and strains.

Yet, so often, the people that tend to do so, seek escape mechanisms
from responsibility for that and sometimes prefer the ³secondary
benefits² that they can gain in the process. Frequently, the control
mechanisms of raising the spectres of death and dire demises are then
used upon these people and others to force them to accept and abide by
externally imposed regimens of various ³treatments,² too. And the
examples of those that are free of the problem, as proof and examples
of success. Or to dismiss other options, supposedly as seriously
risking or inducing the unfortunate outcomes. And holding up any
examples of ³depressives² that have done so to scare others and
seemingly ³prove the point.²

What might a difference possibly be, between a ³mood² and an ³impulse²?

[Virtualoso]

In article <UJfQa.103747$fe.2259874@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>, rosie
readandpost <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

> > > Errol, this is bullshit of course. It's another control mechanism
> > > which unfortunately people in AA use as such.
>
> or this is written by someone who has relapsed, and was humiliated for it!
> that is a shame!
>
> i was taught that relapse IS a scary thing, as some of us don't return to
> sobriety from it!
> but today, fear is NOT what keeps me sober!

Where's the part in the BB about "relapse"? Is there a difference
between "relapse" and "drinking"? I always liked how AA suggests a
solution that can solve and remove and free people from problems like
that.

[GaryE]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:02:40 +0000, errol9 <errol9@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>in article fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com, GaryE at
>
>Obviously you are not an alcoholic, and have never experienced this desire
>which so many of us AA members have experienced.
>
>But for the grace of God go I.........Errol
>
"..so many of us AA members...?" How many do you speak for?
Roughly. Out of 2 million or so worldwide, how many?

Of course. If one doesn't think you, act like you, or have your
experience, how could they possibly be an alcoholic. Well, a *real*
alcoholic, anyway. Besides your avoiding my point. How can you
possibly know that all alcoholics experience this 'thief in the night'
syndrome? Did Bill W. write that all alcoholics are the same?
Perhaps you are referring to the 'hopeless' variety, a category which
is perfectly clear as to what it means. You are hopeless when you
*think* you have to have someone higher than you take care of your
drinking, right? You can't do anything on your own. Hopeless,
powerless. I bet this divine power even took you to your first AA
meetings. You couldn't and wouldn't go on your own. Right?

It's always good to hang a fellow alcoholic up for an 'example' for
the crowd, though. And then give their full name, too. Have you no
sensitivity for other people? All you can come back is 'you can't be
an alcoholic'.

[GaryE]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:25:24 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
<readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>> > Errol, this is bullshit of course. It's another control mechanism
>> > which unfortunately people in AA use as such.
>
>or this is written by someone who has relapsed, and was humiliated for it!
>that is a shame!

You are probably more right than I. It's to humilate someone by
giving their full name on a public newsgroup and holding them up to
ridicule.
>
>i was taught that relapse IS a scary thing, as some of us don't return to sobriety from it!
>but today, fear is NOT what keeps me sober!

Somehow I think you wouldn't go around making an example of people who
relapse.

Best,
GaryE

[errol9]

in article ahh3hv4lu1rlepsh4lvkoddsqbjq9vdgrg@4ax.com, GaryE at
garyexxx@swbell.net wrote on 13/7/03 8:52 pm:

> You are probably more right than I. It's to humilate someone by
> giving their full name on a public newsgroup and holding them up to
> ridicule.

Gary,

I would have to go a long way to humiliate George Best, as his name is all
over the front pages of all the British national newspapers. Obviously you
are an American who never heard of him. His drinking history is well known
to some 70 million UK newspaper,media radio and TV over the past 25 years.


George Best returns to the bar

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2904453,00.html

George Best arrested in pub after photo dispute

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=424051

[smicker]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:42:29 +0000, errol9 <errol9@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>This guy George Best a famous football player from my home town had a liver
>transplant three years ago to save his life. He hit the bottle a month ago.
>Its only because George Best is famous that his name is in the paper. Most
>of us in AA know if we drink we die in obscurity without hardly anyone
>knowing about us. (Story in website below). Errol

Those of us who do not make the newspapers are not famous and rich
enough to get to jump the waiting list for a transplant either.
smicker
http://www.smicker.co.uk

[Buddy H.]

Virtualoso wrote:
> Where's the part in the BB about "relapse"? Is there a difference
> between "relapse" and "drinking"? I always liked how AA suggests a
> solution that can solve and remove and free people from problems like
> that.

"Of alcoholics who came to A.A. and really tried, 50% got sober at
once and remained that way; 25% sobered up after some relapses,
and among the remainder, those who stayed with A.A. showed
improvement."

"Though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all, as
has been true with many of our men, it is by no means a bad thing
in some cases."

"Husbands and wives have sometimes been obliged to separate for a
time until new perspective, new victory over hurt pride could be
rewon. In most cases, the alcoholic survived this ordeal without
relapse, but not always."

[GaryE]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:23:47 +0000, errol9 <errol9@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>in article ahh3hv4lu1rlepsh4lvkoddsqbjq9vdgrg@4ax.com, GaryE at
>garyexxx@swbell.net wrote on 13/7/03 8:52 pm:
>
>> You are probably more right than I. It's to humilate someone by
>> giving their full name on a public newsgroup and holding them up to
>> ridicule.
>
>Gary,
>
>I would have to go a long way to humiliate George Best, as his name is all
>over the front pages of all the British national newspapers. Obviously you
>are an American who never heard of him. His drinking history is well known
>to some 70 million UK newspaper,media radio and TV over the past 25 years.

Might as well be you who spreads it to the US, right?

Does this really justify you breaking his anon?

Never mind. You'll be right no matter....it's the way it goes with AA
old timers. Never wrong. Never having to prompty admit anything.
Cinque de mayo.
Gar


>George Best returns to the bar
>
>http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2904453,00.html
>
>George Best arrested in pub after photo dispute
>
>http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=424051
>

[Tommy]

GaryE wrote:

> Might as well be you who spreads it to the US, right?

> Does this really justify you breaking his anon?

> Never mind. You'll be right no matter....it's the way it goes with AA
> old timers. Never wrong. Never having to prompty admit anything.
> Cinque de mayo.
> Gar

Guys guys guys, he is not in AA, not a memebr, not held to anonymity by
virute of HIS own disclosures on TV and the tabloids. Like all alcoholics
he is a genuinely nice guy - until he drinks, and even then he's not always
obnoxious. Gary this chap has a long history here in Ireland, Nth Ireland
and the UK.. HE has sold his story to the papers a few times. Is never off
the telly. He has had implants of antabuse stitched into his stomach,
which he drank on, has been fired from Sport pundit jobs and the latest
thing he did was marry a young (model I think) girl. All I am is jealous of
his 'escorts'. Incidentally whether the papers are short of news or what, I
couldn't tell you, but it made headlines in broadsheet papers too, probably
because he's recently had a liver transplant.

He's a high profile boozer, just doesn't seem to be able to shake it
Cheers
Tommy

[Michael Bassa]

errol9 wrote:

> in article ahh3hv4lu1rlepsh4lvkoddsqbjq9vdgrg@4ax.com, GaryE at
> garyexxx@swbell.net wrote on 13/7/03 8:52 pm:
>
> > You are probably more right than I. It's to humilate someone by
> > giving their full name on a public newsgroup and holding them up to
> > ridicule.
>
> Gary,
>
> I would have to go a long way to humiliate George Best, as his name is all
> over the front pages of all the British national newspapers. Obviously you
> are an American who never heard of him. His drinking history is well known
> to some 70 million UK newspaper,media radio and TV over the past 25 years.
>
> George Best returns to the bar
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2904453,00.html
>
> George Best arrested in pub after photo dispute
>
> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=424051

I hate to judge but George Best never gave this AA any hope that he would be a
poster boy for recovery. I followed his story in the Press and he seemed to
think new liver = new life. Oh, that and the Antabuse pellets sewn into the
stomach. Alcoholism was some sort of ailment that would go away with a few
replacement body parts. Everything about him, from newspapers to TV interviews
to docudrama was so far off beam it was painful to read or watch. I wish him
the best - a white chip and a seat at the Beginner's Group.

[errol9]

in article pl14hv87gpl1paa1krlhgpjsd3udmdst1r@4ax.com, smicker at
rossprat@hotmail.com wrote on 14/7/03 1:29 am:

> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:42:29 +0000, errol9 <errol9@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This guy George Best a famous football player from my home town had a liver
>> transplant three years ago to save his life. He hit the bottle a month ago.
>> Its only because George Best is famous that his name is in the paper. Most
>> of us in AA know if we drink we die in obscurity without hardly anyone
>> knowing about us. (Story in website below). Errol
>
> Those of us who do not make the newspapers are not famous and rich
> enough to get to jump the waiting list for a transplant either.
> smicker
> http://www.smicker.co.uk

That is very true, and why this guy attracted so much attention by the media
a year ago when he received a *free* liver transplant on the NHS system.
His doctor presented his case that if he had not have got the transplant
then he would have died last year. Many people were annoyed he jumped the
queue for a free liver when he had squandered 20 million bucks of all his
football earnings. He was front page media news then also:

Tuesday, 30 July, 2002, 17:42 GMT 18:42 UK
Liver transplant for George Best

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2161540.stm

George Best was ordered off alcohol two years ago

Football legend and recovering alcoholic George Best is undergoing a liver
transplant in London's Cromwell Hospital.

The former Manchester United and Northern Ireland star went into theatre on
Tuesday morning.

This is very good news but there is still a worrying wait ahead

Agent Phil Hughes

Best was called at home at 0600BST and surgeons began operating four hours
later.

At 1830 Best's consultant Professor Roger Williams said: "George Best is
still in theatre - it's been a difficult operation but reasonable progress
is being made."

His wife Alex is with him at the hospital.

Best, who had been waiting for a donor, had just returned from holiday in
Malta.

Waiting over

In his column in the Mail on Sunday over the weekend, the 56-year-old wrote:
"We have been a bit naughty, because I should be stuck at home waiting for a
call telling me the transplant is on and to high tail it to the hospital.

"But I have been waiting for almost eight months now and have cancelled
holiday after holiday."

His agent Phil Hughes told BBC News Online that he had seen Best at the
hospital ahead of the operation.

"He was absolutely fine," he said.

He said the former footballer was not getting any worse but also was not
getting any better.

"This is very good news but there is still a worrying wait ahead."


Q&A: Liver transplants

In December Best was told he needed a transplant following medical
confirmation that his liver was only functioning at 20%.

Mr Williams, who is director of the Institute of Hepatology at University
College London, said then that the conditions were right for the operation
to go ahead.

History of illness

At the time he said: "A liver transplant is very much a routine procedure
although it is a very big procedure.

"It is done very widely when the indications are there medically and the
results on the whole are terrific".

Earlier that month he had been admitted to hospital in Limassol, Cyprus
suffering from a fever and a gastrointestinal tract infection.

The star underwent extensive treatment for liver damage at the Cromwell
Hospital two years ago.

He was warned then that if he ever drank again it could kill him.

And in February last year Best, who now works as a sports commentator, was
treated at Belfast City Hospital for pneumonia.

Best has battled with drink all his life, getting arrested in 1984 for
drink-driving and assaulting a police officer.





>
>
>

[errol9]

in article 3F121E42.134E3288@yahoo.com, Michael Bassa at mbassa@yahoo.com
wrote on 14/7/03 3:06 am:

> errol9 wrote:
>
>> in article ahh3hv4lu1rlepsh4lvkoddsqbjq9vdgrg@4ax.com, GaryE at
>> garyexxx@swbell.net wrote on 13/7/03 8:52 pm:
>>
>>> You are probably more right than I. It's to humilate someone by
>>> giving their full name on a public newsgroup and holding them up to
>>> ridicule.
>>
>> Gary,
>>
>> I would have to go a long way to humiliate George Best, as his name is all
>> over the front pages of all the British national newspapers. Obviously you
>> are an American who never heard of him. His drinking history is well known
>> to some 70 million UK newspaper,media radio and TV over the past 25 years.
>>
>> George Best returns to the bar
>>
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2904453,00.html
>>
>> George Best arrested in pub after photo dispute
>>
>> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=424051
>
> I hate to judge but George Best never gave this AA any hope that he would be a
> poster boy for recovery. I followed his story in the Press and he seemed to
> think new liver = new life. Oh, that and the Antabuse pellets sewn into the
> stomach. Alcoholism was some sort of ailment that would go away with a few
> replacement body parts. Everything about him, from newspapers to TV
> interviews
> to docudrama was so far off beam it was painful to read or watch. I wish him
> the best - a white chip and a seat at the Beginner's Group.

You are 100% coreect, the British media love playing emotional press like
football with him. One paper is his enemy and the other offers a frendly
shoulder feeling sorry for him. This is one guy whose celebrity status,
football heroism, and his antics from his drinking sprees has come right
right into everyones home by the media.............Errol

[Michael Bassa]

errol9 wrote:

> <Snip>
> >>
> >> George Best returns to the bar
> >>
> >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2904453,00.html
> >>
> >> George Best arrested in pub after photo dispute
> >>
> >> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=424051
> >
> > I hate to judge but George Best never gave this AA any hope that he would be a
> > poster boy for recovery. I followed his story in the Press and he seemed to
> > think new liver = new life. Oh, that and the Antabuse pellets sewn into the
> > stomach. Alcoholism was some sort of ailment that would go away with a few
> > replacement body parts. Everything about him, from newspapers to TV
> > interviews
> > to docudrama was so far off beam it was painful to read or watch. I wish him
> > the best - a white chip and a seat at the Beginner's Group.
>
> You are 100% coreect, the British media love playing emotional press like
> football with him. One paper is his enemy and the other offers a frendly
> shoulder feeling sorry for him. This is one guy whose celebrity status,
> football heroism, and his antics from his drinking sprees has come right
> right into everyones home by the media.............Errol

I remember when that whole media circus was going on last year fearing for George
Best. For a soccer fan of a certain 60/70s era he was etched in the mind. Don't
know the bloke - but somehow we all wish him well. Some of the things that he was
being paraded around in, the photo ops, the interview with his wife, his manager -
were so inane as to want to make you yell. We are living in an Internet era and I
felt like firing off a few e-mails to these so called editors and producers asking
them a simple question - "does your staff know a single fact about Alcoholism? If
you did, and you don't, your ignorance is going to kill that man." After what I
have read today, I think George has gone back out there perhaps for the last time.
Maybe we need to balance it out by saying George is a professional Alcoholic and
earns his living from it all. He wasn't the first and won't be the last "Wildman."
The thing that sickens me is the way the media has so twisted "Recovery" into this
thing akin to the Plastic Surgery industry. Drink and drug to excess, we send you
off to a Clinic in Arizona for 28 days to hug people, you come back and start where
you left off. That is all you need to do.

[Robert McGregor]

"Michael Bassa" <mbassa@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3F12BDFF.E9A72786@yahoo.com...
> errol9 wrote:
>
> > <Snip>
> > >>
> > >> George Best returns to the bar
> > >>
> > >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,1271,-2904453,00.html
> > >>
> > >> George Best arrested in pub after photo dispute
> > >>
> > >> http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=424051
> > >
> > > I hate to judge but George Best never gave this AA any hope that he
would be a
> > > poster boy for recovery. I followed his story in the Press and he
seemed to
> > > think new liver = new life. Oh, that and the Antabuse pellets sewn
into the
> > > stomach. Alcoholism was some sort of ailment that would go away with
a few
> > > replacement body parts. Everything about him, from newspapers to TV
> > > interviews
> > > to docudrama was so far off beam it was painful to read or watch. I
wish him
> > > the best - a white chip and a seat at the Beginner's Group.
> >
> > You are 100% coreect, the British media love playing emotional press
like
> > football with him. One paper is his enemy and the other offers a frendly
> > shoulder feeling sorry for him. This is one guy whose celebrity status,
> > football heroism, and his antics from his drinking sprees has come right
> > right into everyones home by the media.............Errol
>
> I remember when that whole media circus was going on last year fearing for
George
> Best. For a soccer fan of a certain 60/70s era he was etched in the mind.
Don't
> know the bloke - but somehow we all wish him well. Some of the things
that he was
> being paraded around in, the photo ops, the interview with his wife, his
manager -
> were so inane as to want to make you yell. We are living in an Internet
era and I
> felt like firing off a few e-mails to these so called editors and
producers asking
> them a simple question - "does your staff know a single fact about
Alcoholism? If
> you did, and you don't, your ignorance is going to kill that man." After
what I
> have read today, I think George has gone back out there perhaps for the
last time.
> Maybe we need to balance it out by saying George is a professional
Alcoholic and
> earns his living from it all. He wasn't the first and won't be the last
"Wildman."
> The thing that sickens me is the way the media has so twisted "Recovery"
into this
> thing akin to the Plastic Surgery industry. Drink and drug to excess, we
send you
> off to a Clinic in Arizona for 28 days to hug people, you come back and
start where
> you left off. That is all you need to do.
>
>

Surely, by widening their target market to include all and sundry who, even
tacitly, can profess a nominal desire to stop drinking, as distinct from the
previous qualification of "real alcoholism," AA members themselves are at
the very least equally to blame for such confusion. A pertinent example is
the now common A.A. recruitment proclamation,
http://blank.org/link/?q=1058196690
"AA is for those that want it, not for those that need it."

Bob

[Craig S.]

"errol9" <errol9@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:BB374130.2BE57%errol9@ntlworld.com...
> in article fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com, GaryE at

> Obviously you are not an alcoholic, and have never experienced this desire
> which so many of us AA members have experienced.

Is that pride I detect - actual pride in being an "alcoholic" (of the real
variety no doubt)? That's kind of sick, dude.

[GaryE]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:13:06 GMT, "Craig S." <cspurlock@mtneer.net>
wrote:

>
>"errol9" <errol9@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:BB374130.2BE57%errol9@ntlworld.com...
>> in article fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com, GaryE at
>
>> Obviously you are not an alcoholic, and have never experienced this desire
>> which so many of us AA members have experienced.
>
>Is that pride I detect - actual pride in being an "alcoholic" (of the real
>variety no doubt)? That's kind of sick, dude.
>
Thou hast said.

It's the coup de grace from an AA member.....no 'worse' accusation.
Shows how 'values' get twisted a little, eh and how perspective gets
narrowed....I just told Joan that I wasn't actually an alcoholic...an
old timer in AA told me so.....she said, *really? you mean I
hallucinated all that crap for all those years?"

Best,
GaryE

[Craig S.]

"Buddy H." <buddy-51@earthlink2001.net> wrote in message
news:3F1208E5.6BE23F3F@earthlink2001.net...

> "it [relapse] is by no means a bad thing in some cases."

Don't guess I've paid much attention to this line previously. Relapse so
often seems to be accompanied by the doomsayers wailing, lamenting and
pontificating interlaced with "I knew it" and "I could have told you it was
only a matter of time." Seems to me that there's an artificial stigma
attached by the fellowship to the act of drinking again after some period of
sobriety. Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.

[Dan McGown]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:beuiqk$98aoa$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...

> A pertinent example is the now common A.A.
> recruitment proclamation, http://blank.org/link/?q=1058196690
> "AA is for those that want it, not for those that need it."

Bob, it seems to me that the slogan, "AA is for those that want it, not
for those that need it," doesn't mean to say that AA is for people who want
it without needing it. To the contrary, it appears to me to mean that no
matter how much a person may need AA, it is of no use unless the needing
person wants AA.

That is merely a restatement of the fundamental requirement that one
have a desire to stop drinking. It isn't sufficient that one need to stop
drinking. One must also desire it.

I could be wrong, but that us how I read it.

[Jim Smith]

Dan McGown wrote:

> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:beuiqk$98aoa$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > A pertinent example is the now common A.A.
> > recruitment proclamation, http://blank.org/link/?q=1058196690
> > "AA is for those that want it, not for those that need it."
>
> Bob, it seems to me that the slogan, "AA is for those that want it, not
> for those that need it," doesn't mean to say that AA is for people who want
> it without needing it. To the contrary, it appears to me to mean that no
> matter how much a person may need AA, it is of no use unless the needing
> person wants AA.
>
> That is merely a restatement of the fundamental requirement that one
> have a desire to stop drinking. It isn't sufficient that one need to stop
> drinking. One must also desire it.
>
> I could be wrong, but that us how I read it.

Somebody who needs a liver transplant needs to stop drinking. Somebody with a
new transplanted liver who wants to and does drink has no desire to stop
drinking. You can do a Google search on the George Best transplant saga and
there all all sorts of references by him along the lines of 'he knows what his
problem is, AA would hardly be anonymous for someone like him etc. etc.' It is
all very sad. As we know, AA is not for everyone and there are significant
numbers of people who come into contact with the program who just don't want
it. Of that, AA is all too painfully aware.

[AA+]

Tommy wrote:

> GaryE wrote:
>
> > Might as well be you who spreads it to the US, right?
>
> > Does this really justify you breaking his anon?
>
> > Never mind. You'll be right no matter....it's the way it goes with AA
> > old timers. Never wrong. Never having to prompty admit anything.
> > Cinque de mayo.
> > Gar
>
> Guys guys guys, he is not in AA, not a memebr, not held to anonymity by
> virute of HIS own disclosures on TV and the tabloids. Like all alcoholics
> he is a genuinely nice guy - <All snipped> probably
> because he's recently had a liver transplant.
>
> He's a high profile boozer, just doesn't seem to be able to shake it
> Cheers
> Tommy

During my first year of Sobriety I went to a sparsely attended AA OS Meeting.
There were less than 10 people there including the Top Table. The speaker gets
up and tells his story. Halfway through the mix he throws in he's had a liver
transplant. Six or seven years later he decides to try the new one out. His
whole life story was this relentless battle against a compulsion to drink
despite the knowledge of its devastating effects on his life. That was the day
I accepted that we really are people who are totally powerless - and yes it can
and does end in death. You won't see his story in the media.

[AA+]

Jim Smith wrote:

> Dan McGown wrote:
>
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> <snip>
> >
> > I could be wrong, but that us how I read it.
>
> Somebody who needs a liver transplant needs to stop drinking. Somebody with a
> new transplanted liver who wants to and does drink has no desire to stop
> drinking. You can do a Google search on the George Best transplant saga and
> there all all sorts of references by him along the lines of 'he knows what his
> problem is, AA would hardly be anonymous for someone like him etc. etc.' It is
> all very sad. As we know, AA is not for everyone and there are significant
> numbers of people who come into contact with the program who just don't want
> it. Of that, AA is all too painfully aware.

For me, the hardest part of AA is watching the pain of people who get so, so, close
to this program of recovery and just can't cross the divide.

[Dan McGown]

"AA+" <AA+@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3F130B8C.F78C5831@nospam.com...
> Jim Smith wrote:

> For me, the hardest part of AA is watching the pain of
> people who get so, so, close to this program of
> recovery and just can't cross the divide.

The thing that I have to keep reminding myself is that at any given
moment I'm only a couple of fluid ounces from being in exactly the same
place. It isn't just crossing the divide. That's only the original cost.
The upkeep is not crossing back over, no matter how inviting it looks.
Of course it helps that you start finding the loud, boisterous,
aggressive nature of many drinkers to be sufficiently annoying as to remind
you why you're not drinking.

[Craig S.]

"Tom G." <thegoz@dipshit.com> wrote in message
news:rzEQa.5554$b_4.4398@lakeread07...
> "Craig S." <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote in message ..
> > "Buddy H." <buddy-51@earthlink2001.net> wrote in message
> > news:3F1208E5.6BE23F3F@earthlink2001.net...
> >
> > > "it [relapse] is by no means a bad thing in some cases."
> >
> > Don't guess I've paid much attention to this line previously. Relapse
> so
> > often seems to be accompanied by the doomsayers wailing, lamenting and
> > pontificating interlaced with "I knew it" and "I could have told you
> it was
> > only a matter of time." Seems to me that there's an artificial stigma
> > attached by the fellowship to the act of drinking again after some
> period of
> > sobriety. Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.
>
>
> If you'll stand for second class status... I never would.
> People who've never had a slip are a puzzlement to me... I
> can't see how they keep from havin' feelings of, "Was I *really*
> an alcoholic."... I know I damn sure couldn't have... I proved
> I was a sot over and over and over and over...

That's me, Tom. I didn't relapse, and I've often wondered whether or not I
was alcoholic. After a while the question became moot. It doesn't really
matter whether I'm alcoholic or not - my decision to lead an abstinent
lifestyle isn't really much based on that any more. My life is going well,
and I don't believe the introduction of alcohol would actually add to or
enhance in any way - so why mess with a good thing? Plus, on the off chance
that alcoholism is lurking around inside my noggin somewhere, it simply
isn't worth it to tempt fate, even though there is a part of me that
believes I probably could drink in moderation these days - and no, I don't
believe that's my "disease" talking to me.

[Dan McGown]

> I can't see how they keep from havin' feelings of,
> "Was I *really* an alcoholic."... I know I damn sure
> couldn't have... I proved I was a sot over and over and
> over and over...
:)
My favorite meeting is one downtown in the inner city where they say
"Hi, I'm _______, and I'm a *real* alcoholic."
Now, personally, I'm more of an "ex-urban" kind of guy and the closest
(geographically) meetings tend to be more "up scale" where it might even be
a matter of opinion whether the speaker is a soak such as myself.
It's rather a relief to be at a meeting with people for who alcoholism
isn't theoretical or conjectural. It reduces things to basics and
simplicity.
It is my belief, although I am only a beginner in sobriety, that overly
analytical and excessively intellectual playing with definitions and
approaches is just another defense that the demon raises to try to get me to
lie to myself and start drinking.

[Robert McGregor]

"AA+" <AA+@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3F130B8C.F78C5831@nospam.com...

> For me, the hardest part of AA is watching the pain of people who get so,
so, close
> to this program of recovery and just can't cross the divide.
>
>



For me, the irony is in listening to those in obvious ignorance as to what
"this message" actually is, purporting to "carry" this message.

Have you ever wondered if your own tongues are that divide?

Bob

[Robert McGregor]

"Dan McGown" <DMcGown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:bVBQa.171$2b1.208272@news2.news.adelphia.net. ..
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:beuiqk$98aoa$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > A pertinent example is the now common A.A.
> > recruitment proclamation, http://blank.org/link/?q=1058196690
> > "AA is for those that want it, not for those that need it."
>
> Bob, it seems to me that the slogan, "AA is for those that want it,
not
> for those that need it," doesn't mean to say that AA is for people who
want
> it without needing it. To the contrary, it appears to me to mean that no
> matter how much a person may need AA, it is of no use unless the needing
> person wants AA.
>
> That is merely a restatement of the fundamental requirement that one
> have a desire to stop drinking. It isn't sufficient that one need to stop
> drinking. One must also desire it.
>
> I could be wrong, but that us how I read it.
>
>

Really? "Not for" those that need it actually means it "is for" those who
need it? Is yours the same AAspeak where, when a woman says "no," she
primarily means "yes?"

Bob

[GaryE]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 03:57:32 +0100, "Tommy"
<Tommyleprechaun@yourway.com> wrote:

ayo.
>> Gar
>
>Guys guys guys, he is not in AA, not a memebr, not held to anonymity by
>virute of HIS own disclosures on TV and the tabloids. Like all alcoholics
>he is a genuinely nice guy - until he drinks, and even then he's not always
>obnoxious. Gary this chap has a long history here in Ireland, Nth Ireland
>and the UK.. HE has sold his story to the papers a few times. Is never off
>the telly. He has had implants of antabuse stitched into his stomach,
>which he drank on, has been fired from Sport pundit jobs and the latest
>thing he did was marry a young (model I think) girl. All I am is jealous of
>his 'escorts'. Incidentally whether the papers are short of news or what, I
>couldn't tell you, but it made headlines in broadsheet papers too, probably
>because he's recently had a liver transplant.
>
>He's a high profile boozer, just doesn't seem to be able to shake it


Well, anonminity is off then. Now his fame has been spread into araa.
Such a deal. Maybe he's a *real* alcoholic. Yet Tommy, if
whathisname wants to talk about his own drinking, have at it. He was
just doing a little fearmongering, wouldn't you say? Guys who wear
30 years on their sleeve ought to get rapped when they take the high
road over someone else. Hell, he didn't do anything anyway. God did
it. Right. So what happened to humility? Love and toelrance is our
code? We only know but a little? Bullshit right? QED.

Best,
GaryE

[Robert McGregor]

"Craig S." <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote in message
news:mEAQa.1397$Mc.133613@newsread1.prod.itd.earth link.net...
>
> "errol9" <errol9@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:BB374130.2BE57%errol9@ntlworld.com...
> > in article fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com, GaryE at
>
> > Obviously you are not an alcoholic, and have never experienced this
desire
> > which so many of us AA members have experienced.
>
> Is that pride I detect - actual pride in being an "alcoholic" (of the real
> variety no doubt)? That's kind of sick, dude.
>
>

I did perceive Errol's "judgement," or lack of it, as being rather hasty.

However.

Relative to "real alcoholism," other than fools boasting of absurd excess,
the connotations of pride I have noticed are confined to petty accusations
from folk who themselves never presented with the track record of extended
stupidity common to what I perceive to be "real alcoholics."

The Big Book distinction of "real alcoholic" is of particular importance
where, arguably, an 180º change in direction is
essential for those wishing to recover from deplorable desolation; while
possibly counter productive for those on the other side of that distinction,
the intemperate social, "problem," or "heavy" drinkers.

"Pride" does not come into that equation, at all. It is simply that
different causes of alcohol abuse are best tackled with appropriate
solutions.

Bob

[Tom G.]

"Craig S." <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote in message

> >Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.
> >
> >
> > If you'll stand for second class status... I never would.
> > People who've never had a slip are a puzzlement to me... I
> > can't see how they keep from havin' feelings of, "Was I *really*
> > an alcoholic."... I know I damn sure couldn't have... I proved
> > I was a sot over and over and over and over...
>
> That's me, Tom. I didn't relapse, and I've often wondered whether or
not I
> was alcoholic. After a while the question became moot. It doesn't
really
> matter whether I'm alcoholic or not - my decision to lead an abstinent
> lifestyle isn't really much based on that any more. My life is going
well,
> and I don't believe the introduction of alcohol would actually add to
or
> enhance in any way - so why mess with a good thing? Plus, on the off
chance
> that alcoholism is lurking around inside my noggin somewhere, it
simply
> isn't worth it to tempt fate, even though there is a part of me that
> believes I probably could drink in moderation these days - and no, I
don't
> believe that's my "disease" talking to me.


I've never believed diseases talk... I've had audio
hallucinations (heard voices in the night) while coming off a
drunk, but never figured it was my disease talkin' to me...
One of the voices was a very pleasant fella named Henry...
He insisted that I call him, "Hank"... But that's neither here nor
there... I also know from personal experience that relapses
aren't necessarily planned, as some of the old farts will tell you.
Out of my many slips, or relapses if you will, I can't say that a
damn one of them was ever planned...

I'd just drift away from meetin's and the people I associated
with while sober and it just usually happened. It's been my
experience, with myself and others I've observed over the years,
that when a person starts attending A.A. on a regular basis certain
changes in the person will be effected. And it usually doesn't
matter much whether the person has done the steps,
or whateverthehell... If this same person leaves A.A. he/she will
slowly, and sometimes not so slowly, revert back to what he/she
was before the experience. I've had it happen time and again...

Knowing this was one of the reasons I was so taken with the
set of Agnostic steps you sent along that time... Those revised
steps fit my experience to a tee... You can replace "Higher Power"
with the words "Positive Influence" and it works just fine...

I think I've reached a point where my being an alcoholic or not
is also a moot point. I enjoy the new little meetin' I've found but
I doubt that I'd be stricken drunk if I didn't go... I don't remember
the last time booze crossed my mind as an answer to anything...
I'll probably always be online, I'm afraid I've become hopelessly
addicted to it. Can't tell whether that's a good thing or not...

Tom

\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell thegoz@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)

[Tom G.]

"Dan McGown" <DMcGown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:_NEQa.231$2b1.252779@news2.news.adelphia.net. ..
> > I can't see how they keep from havin' feelings of,
> > "Was I *really* an alcoholic."... I know I damn sure
> > couldn't have... I proved I was a sot over and over and
> > over and over...
> :)
> My favorite meeting is one downtown in the inner city where they
say
> "Hi, I'm _______, and I'm a *real* alcoholic."
> Now, personally, I'm more of an "ex-urban" kind of guy and the
closest
> (geographically) meetings tend to be more "up scale" where it might
even be
> a matter of opinion whether the speaker is a soak such as myself.
> It's rather a relief to be at a meeting with people for who
alcoholism
> isn't theoretical or conjectural. It reduces things to basics and
> simplicity.
> It is my belief, although I am only a beginner in sobriety, that
overly
> analytical and excessively intellectual playing with definitions and
> approaches is just another defense that the demon raises to try to get
me to
> lie to myself and start drinking.


"Demon"...?? RR...?? Heh. Boy, did you stumble into
a live one here, Dan...:O) Analyzing and general intellectual
dipshitery is the name of the game here in a.r.aa most of the
time...:O) I agree, why don't mean shit... How to keep away
from the first drink is where it's at... Welcome..:O)


Tom

\\\|///
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
---oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
Tom Gosnell thegoz@cox.net
--------------Oooo-------------
oooO ( )
( ) ) /
\ ( (_/
\_)

[Craig S.]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bev9i2$92qff$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Craig S." <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote in message
> news:mEAQa.1397$Mc.133613@newsread1.prod.itd.earth link.net...
> >
> > "errol9" <errol9@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > news:BB374130.2BE57%errol9@ntlworld.com...
> > > in article fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com, GaryE at
> >
> > > Obviously you are not an alcoholic, and have never experienced this
> desire
> > > which so many of us AA members have experienced.
> >
> > Is that pride I detect - actual pride in being an "alcoholic" (of the
real
> > variety no doubt)? That's kind of sick, dude.
> >
> >
>
> I did perceive Errol's "judgement," or lack of it, as being rather hasty.
>
> However.
>
> Relative to "real alcoholism," other than fools boasting of absurd excess,
> the connotations of pride I have noticed are confined to petty accusations
> from folk who themselves never presented with the track record of extended
> stupidity common to what I perceive to be "real alcoholics."

I may have been mistaken, Bob. It might not have been pride I picked up on
after all. It could have simply been condescension.

> The Big Book distinction of "real alcoholic" is of particular importance
> where, arguably, an 180º change in direction is
> essential for those wishing to recover from deplorable desolation; while
> possibly counter productive for those on the other side of that
distinction,
> the intemperate social, "problem," or "heavy" drinkers.
>
> "Pride" does not come into that equation, at all. It is simply that
> different causes of alcohol abuse are best tackled with appropriate
> solutions.

Agreed. I tackle mostly by not drinking. 8~)

[rosie readandpost]

Is yours the same AAspeak where, when a woman says "no," she
> primarily means "yes?"
>
> Bob
>
>


you have hit an ALL TIME LOW!

>
>
>

[Virtualoso]

In article <oFBQa.1526$Mc.140956@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink. net>,
Craig S. <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote:

> "Buddy H." <buddy-51@earthlink2001.net> wrote in message
> news:3F1208E5.6BE23F3F@earthlink2001.net...
>
> > "it [relapse] is by no means a bad thing in some cases."
>
> Don't guess I've paid much attention to this line previously. Relapse so
> often seems to be accompanied by the doomsayers wailing, lamenting and
> pontificating interlaced with "I knew it" and "I could have told you it was
> only a matter of time." Seems to me that there's an artificial stigma
> attached by the fellowship to the act of drinking again after some period of
> sobriety. Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.

Well, sure wouldn't want to lose any stature or prestige among alkies.

[Virtualoso]

In article <QjHQa.101123$Io.8708980@newsread2.prod.itd.earthli nk.net>,
Craig S. <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote:

> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:bev9i2$92qff$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Craig S." <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote in message
> > news:mEAQa.1397$Mc.133613@newsread1.prod.itd.earth link.net...
> > >
> > > "errol9" <errol9@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> > > news:BB374130.2BE57%errol9@ntlworld.com...
> > > > in article fpu2hv8ha4vn58ub0f2k5bo2c48g81bqn8@4ax.com, GaryE at
> > >
> > > > Obviously you are not an alcoholic, and have never experienced this
> > desire
> > > > which so many of us AA members have experienced.
> > >
> > > Is that pride I detect - actual pride in being an "alcoholic" (of the
> real
> > > variety no doubt)? That's kind of sick, dude.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I did perceive Errol's "judgement," or lack of it, as being rather hasty.
> >
> > However.
> >
> > Relative to "real alcoholism," other than fools boasting of absurd excess,
> > the connotations of pride I have noticed are confined to petty accusations
> > from folk who themselves never presented with the track record of extended
> > stupidity common to what I perceive to be "real alcoholics."
>
> I may have been mistaken, Bob. It might not have been pride I picked up on
> after all. It could have simply been condescension.
>
> > The Big Book distinction of "real alcoholic" is of particular importance
> > where, arguably, an 180º change in direction is
> > essential for those wishing to recover from deplorable desolation; while
> > possibly counter productive for those on the other side of that
> distinction,
> > the intemperate social, "problem," or "heavy" drinkers.
> >
> > "Pride" does not come into that equation, at all. It is simply that
> > different causes of alcohol abuse are best tackled with appropriate
> > solutions.
>
> Agreed. I tackle mostly by not drinking. 8~)

Is that pride or condescension in your tone about that here?

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uNHQa.513$6a3.10910@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> Is yours the same AAspeak where, when a woman says "no," she
> > primarily means "yes?"
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
>
> you have hit an ALL TIME LOW!
>

The cap suits you to a T, popandpost :)

Bob

[Virtualoso]

In article <v7g6hv87qdp8pes2fahv68kob3c4b4bi0f@4ax.com>, GaryE
<garyexxx@swbell.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:02:49 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Relative to "real alcoholism," other than fools boasting of absurd excess,
> >the connotations of pride I have noticed are confined to petty accusations
> >from folk who themselves never presented with the track record of extended
> >stupidity common to what I perceive to be "real alcoholics."
>
> Bob, you probably know by now, that I think the 'real alcoholic' was
> not intended to create a class of alcoholic separate from other
> alcoholics, but simply to illustrate the difference between an
> alcoholic and people who aren't. To me, this is one area in which it
> would have been better to draw the comparison as black and white
> rather than black and gray. Because it wasn't done that way, it's
> created an 'elite' AA member who 'drank more than someone else
> spilled.' It's created a pecking order within AA, which I'm sure was
> never Bill's intent, wouldn't you say?

I'd have to wonder a couple of things about that. First, then what's
all that stuff about "alcoholics of our type" and "as far down the
scale as we were"? Or, the Doctor's Opinion including some outright
examination of the myriad "types of alcoholics." Could really seem to
be drawing some distinctions among alcoholics, not just between
alcoholics and all the other types of drinkers.

But, sure, AA's suggested program flat out is presented as a "spiritual
solution" for the alcoholics of their type, with the proviso that
whether nor not any given person (alkie) might need that depends upon
how much they've already lost the power to control their drinking
otherwise. That's generally the part I notice sticking in the craw of
folks that don't want to pursue that program, but are concerned about
any possible "status" about "real alcoholic" or not.

> >"Pride" does not come into that equation, at all. It is simply that
> >different causes of alcohol abuse are best tackled with appropriate
> >solutions.
>
> Pride comes in when there are a phony superiority to other alcoholics.
> It's a matter of degree, not kind . . . [snip]

How does the superiority of being superior to those being superior fit
in there? LOL. The only folks I ever hear even hinting at concerns
about alkies they don't like feeling superior to them, are other
self-proclaimed alkies. Who else would give a hoot? LOL

> I think the only line that separates alcoholic from non is one
> criteria, ability to control drinking. If you can't, for any extended
> period of time, then as far as I'm concerned you are alcoholic. ...

"Can't" or just "don't"? Sobriety, after all, is simply not drinking,
or at least not drinking too much. Just don't choose to. Geez. beem
awhile since you've read your Book of Goz?

[Robert McGregor]

"GaryE" <garyexxx@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:v7g6hv87qdp8pes2fahv68kob3c4b4bi0f@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 08:02:49 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
> <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Relative to "real alcoholism," other than fools boasting of absurd
excess,
> >the connotations of pride I have noticed are confined to petty
accusations
> >from folk who themselves never presented with the track record of
extended
> >stupidity common to what I perceive to be "real alcoholics."
>
> Bob, you probably know by now, that I think the 'real alcoholic' was
> not intended to create a class of alcoholic separate from other
> alcoholics, but simply to illustrate the difference between an
> alcoholic and people who aren't. To me, this is one area in which it
> would have been better to draw the comparison as black and white
> rather than black and gray.

To you, it is an idea better drawn in black and white, but who is the one
best qualified to do the drawing?


>Because it wasn't done that way, it's
> created an 'elite' AA member who 'drank more than someone else
> spilled.'

In any endeavour there are folk whose legendary status is limited to their
own mind.

>It's created a pecking order within AA,

Really? Surely though, that would only apply to those who have some sort of
desire to be pecked?

>which I'm sure was
> never Bill's intent, wouldn't you say?

I have no idea of Bill's intentions, other than build a lucrative dynasty
around principles given to him gratis.

>
>
>
> >"Pride" does not come into that equation, at all. It is simply that
> >different causes of alcohol abuse are best tackled with appropriate
> >solutions.
>
> Pride comes in when there are a phony superiority to other alcoholics.

Conversely, self pride can be dented when non existent superiority is
perceived to exist.

> It's a matter of degree, not kind because there are degrees of
> experience with alcohol. The litmus is 'can you stop when you want to
> and stay stopped if you need to?"

That may well be your litmus, it is certainly not mine. Our very own Ted L.,
according to what he posted here, stopped drinking as soon as he wanted to.
Our Craig has stopped irrespective of a need to. What merit your litmus now?

>In 1936, alcoholics were in the
> closet. I daresay that the common notion that alcoholics were simply
> the scum of society kept it that way. And I'm referring again, mostly
> to the founders of AA who were well educated, middle class denizens.
> I think it fair to say that most of the early 'members' were of that
> category. Early AA was white, middle class, educated and I can't help
> but conclude that's was the pretty much the early AA (and maybe
> today's AA) client. There are exceptions I am sure, but in my years
> of attendance, I didn't see many illiterates, low IQs, or poor people
> (except one's who were 'temporarily' poor because of alcohol).

During my stint in AA, I met so many illiterates I took the trouble to
acquire AA tapes for them, and enough low IQ's for me to be generally
classified an intellectual, thus highly unlikely to "get it."

>
> If someone comes into AA and their biggest obstacle is what those fine
> middle class gentlemen experienced, shame, guilt, failure to control,
> loss of morality, loss of basic character and feelings towards others,
> then the 12 Step receipe is pretty good. Provided one can get by the
> God deal if one needs to. I'm not opposed to the God deal, I did it
> myself and was an advocate of that for my first six years or so. I
> just changed my mind after some period of self and other
> investigation, I became agnostic. Been that for six years or so now.
> Still feels OK. Begone demons, eh?

Only six years? I must pull rank on you in this "God" business then;-)

>
> I think the only line that separates alcoholic from non is one
> criteria, ability to control drinking. If you can't, for any extended
> period of time, then as far as I'm concerned you are alcoholic. And
> you don't have to be an absurd figure or be a candidate for relgious
> (or spiritual, don't forget the euphimisms) convrersion to actually
> get the help you need in AA. Maybe not following the book to the
> letter but why split hairs and start an exclusion campaign. Hell,
> we're all just people first. And if someone can get sober and stay
> sober in AA without the God deal, wonderful. It's a plus, not a minus
> as I see it. And if all you need is the Book, great too. No sense in
> getting hard on because someone doesn't see it or do it your way (not
> yours, but, the generic 'your'). Hard on's are not to be wasted as I
> now see it. (:>

Why then your hard on for "real alcoholics"?

>
> Best,
> GaryE

Brer Bob

[Craig S.]

"Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
news:140720031741321765%virtualoso@innocent.com...
> In article <oFBQa.1526$Mc.140956@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink. net>,
> Craig S. <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote:

> > Seems to me that there's an artificial stigma
> > attached by the fellowship to the act of drinking again after some
period of
> > sobriety. Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.
>
> Well, sure wouldn't want to lose any stature or prestige among alkies.

Only an alkie would place such a high "value" on being alcoholic in the
first place. I've heard "I'm grateful to be alcoholic" many times over the
years. Seems kind of bizarre to me.

[Craig S.]

"Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
news:140720031754409157%virtualoso@innocent.com...

> > Agreed. I tackle mostly by not drinking. 8~)
>
> Is that pride or condescension in your tone about that here?

Ridicule. Get with the program, man.

[GaryE]

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:27:39 +1000, "Robert McGregor"
<robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>
>"
>
>To you, it is an idea better drawn in black and white, but who is the one
>best qualified to do the drawing?

You always take me adversarial, don't you? Bobby, I love you...don't
treat me mean.....I'm old....real old....and vulnerable in
age....hmmmm....that's probably true....


>Conversely, self pride can be dented when non existent superiority is
>perceived to exist.

I couldn't figure out what you were saying here.....is this some sort
of statement of irony? Is it some sort of ageless wisdom that I
should heed or die?
>
>That may well be your litmus, it is certainly not mine. Our very own Ted L.,
>according to what he posted here, stopped drinking as soon as he wanted to.
>Our Craig has stopped irrespective of a need to. What merit your litmus now?

Well, I'm on the side of general definition, so I'll just stick
there....maybe the next one down, you won't be trying to score and
then we can have a *real* conversation...(:>
>

>During my stint in AA, I met so many illiterates I took the trouble to
>acquire AA tapes for them, and enough low IQ's for me to be generally
>classified an intellectual, thus highly unlikely to "get it."

But you fooled them, didn't you? You showed them that a superior
intellect can get sober...just has to know how to read literally...is
that about it?
>
>
>Only six years? I must pull rank on you in this "God" business then;-)

A small claim to fame...I'm out ranked by many...a late bloomer, I am.
>
>
>Why then your hard on for "real alcoholics"?

What is a real alcoholic?

Best,
GaryE

[Virtualoso]

In article <vh6o9q61sbsae5@corp.supernews.com>, Craig S.
<cspurlock@charter.net> wrote:

> "Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
> news:140720031741321765%virtualoso@innocent.com...
> > In article <oFBQa.1526$Mc.140956@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink. net>,
> > Craig S. <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote:
>
> > > Seems to me that there's an artificial stigma
> > > attached by the fellowship to the act of drinking again after some
> period of
> > > sobriety. Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.
> >
> > Well, sure wouldn't want to lose any stature or prestige among alkies.
>
> Only an alkie would place such a high "value" on being alcoholic in the
> first place. I've heard "I'm grateful to be alcoholic" many times over the
> years. Seems kind of bizarre to me.

Yeah, I've heard that, too. I suppose I've always tended to assume it's
someone goofing up when trying to parrot the phrase: "I'm a grateful
alcoholic."

[Virtualoso]

In article <vh6oc4r3dcsm33@corp.supernews.com>, Craig S.
<cspurlock@charter.net> wrote:

> "Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
> news:140720031754409157%virtualoso@innocent.com...
>
> > > Agreed. I tackle mostly by not drinking. 8~)
> >
> > Is that pride or condescension in your tone about that here?
>
> Ridicule. Get with the program, man.

Ridicule is to condescension what mockery is to derision. Isn't it?

[Tex]

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:47:27 -0700, Virtualoso
<virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote:

>In article <vh6o9q61sbsae5@corp.supernews.com>, Craig S.
><cspurlock@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> "Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
>> news:140720031741321765%virtualoso@innocent.com...
>> > In article <oFBQa.1526$Mc.140956@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink. net>,
>> > Craig S. <cspurlock@mtneer.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > Seems to me that there's an artificial stigma
>> > > attached by the fellowship to the act of drinking again after some
>> period of
>> > > sobriety. Easy way to gain second class status in a hurry.
>> >
>> > Well, sure wouldn't want to lose any stature or prestige among alkies.
>>
>> Only an alkie would place such a high "value" on being alcoholic in the
>> first place. I've heard "I'm grateful to be alcoholic" many times over the
>> years. Seems kind of bizarre to me.
>
>Yeah, I've heard that, too. I suppose I've always tended to assume it's
>someone goofing up when trying to parrot the phrase: "I'm a grateful
>alcoholic."

Some say they are grateful to be alcoholic and they are not goofing up
so to speak as they explain if they weren't alcoholic they wouldn't
have found the aa way of life. Personally I'm neither though I accept
that I am and being so finding the aa way of life doesn't seem such a
bad way to go.

__________________________________________________ ____________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>

[RecoveryDog]

The obession to drink can only come when I choose to play with the
thought. Thoughts come out of no where, but thoughts are not
obbessions, but they can become obbessions if I begin to play with
that thought and roll it around in my head.

Today, I do still get thoughts once or twice a week, sometimes more
depending on whats going on in my life. But instead of playing with
that thought first I pray, then I talk to my self and say "I love you,
and it's gonna be ok." Next, I share it with someone(sponsor,
meeting, a friend, someone). I'm only as sick as my secrets, and my
addiction can not handle love and honesty. When I practice self love
and honesty my addiction losses power in my life.

RecoveryDog
webmaster@12stepcity.com

[Craig S.]

"Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
news:140720032048317078%virtualoso@innocent.com...
> In article <vh6oc4r3dcsm33@corp.supernews.com>, Craig S.
> <cspurlock@charter.net> wrote:
>
> > "Virtualoso" <virtualoso@innocent.com> wrote in message
> > news:140720031754409157%virtualoso@innocent.com...
> >
> > > > Agreed. I tackle mostly by not drinking. 8~)
> > >
> > > Is that pride or condescension in your tone about that here?
> >
> > Ridicule. Get with the program, man.
>
> Ridicule is to condescension what mockery is to derision. Isn't it?

I'll have to check with Mr. Miller on that one.

[AA+]

errol9 wrote:

> in article 3F134151.82F23D04@nospam.com, AA+ at AA+@nospam.com wrote on
> 14/7/03 11:48 pm:
>
> > Robert McGregor wrote:
> >
> >> "AA+" <AA+@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3F130B8C.F78C5831@nospam.com...
> >>
> >>><Snip>
> > he has a constitutional right to kill himself by alcoholic drinking and sell
> > his
> > story to the British Tabloids and reinvest the profit in yet more alcoholic
> > drinking. Message understood, loud and clear. I may be an AA, but I'm not
> > stupid.
>
> For those in the US who never heard of George Best here is a big feature
> article on him, run by the Belfast Telegraph. They still consider him a hero
> in his home City........................Errol
>
> http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/bestoftimes/

All too predictable. It sells a lot of newspapers. For those who understand a bit
about British Soccer from that 60s/70s era the casualty list is mounting. Players
like Alan Hudson, Malcolm MacDonald, Ian Hutchinson. Managers like Brian Clough,
Malcolm Allison. The newer ones, Paul Gascoine apart, seem to be doing a lot
better. Tony Adams, with his book "Addicted" and recovery clinic 'Sporting Chance'
is the polar opposite to George Best and makes far more interesting reading.

[errol9]

in article 3F134151.82F23D04@nospam.com, AA+ at AA+@nospam.com wrote on
14/7/03 11:48 pm:

> Robert McGregor wrote:
>
>> "AA+" <AA+@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3F130B8C.F78C5831@nospam.com...
>>
>>> For me, the hardest part of AA is watching the pain of people who get so,
>> so, close
>>> to this program of recovery and just can't cross the divide.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> For me, the irony is in listening to those in obvious ignorance as to what
>> "this message" actually is, purporting to "carry" this message.
>>
>> Have you ever wondered if your own tongues are that divide?
>>
>> Bob
>
> So, during George's 30 year drinking career he must surely at some stage come
> in
> to contact with AA? He rejected it privately then and he rejects it now
> publicly walking around with Liver No.2 in his belly. Not for him the AA
> simpleton with his little Meeting List and 12 and 12. No. George is George,
> he's got the Harley Street medical team on his side and the world's leading
> professionals in their field. He doesn't get to die, he gets to jump the NHS
> line up. Money? No problem, the Taxpayer will foot the bill. This is
> because
> he has a constitutional right to kill himself by alcoholic drinking and sell
> his
> story to the British Tabloids and reinvest the profit in yet more alcoholic
> drinking. Message understood, loud and clear. I may be an AA, but I'm not
> stupid.

For those in the US who never heard of George Best here is a big feature
article on him, run by the Belfast Telegraph. They still consider him a hero
in his home City........................Errol

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/bestoftimes/

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 08:42:29 +0000, errol9 <errol9@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>This guy George Best a famous football player from my home town had a liver
>transplant three years ago to save his life. He hit the bottle a month ago.

I'm not at all surprised. Some will go to extraordinary lengths to
avoid doing what they really need to do, and Best has been doing that
for years.

--
Blue Moon