Re: will AA work?

[catsruleok]

"dougsan" <libby.douglas@comcast.net> wrote in message news:7yOdnVzle9EGgZKiXTWJkw@comcast.com...
> This string is quite interesting reading and an excellent example of why I
> don't attend more than two meetings in any given year any more. Every
> person who ever got drunk did so because s/he drank. Every person who is
> sober is not drinking. Incontrovertible facts.
>
> What little sobriety related pride I take is in realizing I can't drink. I
> take no pride in not drinking. Hell, taking pride in not drinking is like
> taking pride in not driving my car into every tree I drive passed. I am a
> fool if I drink and I'm a fool if I purposely hit trees with my car.
> Sobriety taught me what a fool I was when I was drinking and how the
> foolishness cost so many, many people so much. I have NO time at AA
> meetings or when discussing AA with fellow drunks to listen to fellow
> recovering drunks talk about anything except staying sober.
>

Hi dougsan,

Are there no circumstances under which you would consider it appropriate to congratulate an
alcoholic for not drinking ?

I believe it is right to congratulate alcoholics who have managed not to drink when they have been
sorely tempted so to do. I do so because I know how hard they would have found it to achieve what
have managed to. If it was easy, why do so many alcoholics who give up drinking, start drinking
again ?

I am glad that you are strong enough to cope entirely alone with any temptations you encounter but
sadly, not all of us are. I am most definitely not and if it had not been for NG members telling me
that I had done well not to drink when my resolve not to do so was weak, probably, I would not now
be telling you that I have not had a drink for several weeks.

I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to avoid drinking when they have been
sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my congratulations, won't take notice of them.

JB

[Michael Rapp]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:10:35 +0100, "catsruleok"
<catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote:

<snip>
>Hi dougsan,
>
>Are there no circumstances under which you would consider it appropriate to congratulate an
>alcoholic for not drinking ?
>
>I believe it is right to congratulate alcoholics who have managed not to drink when they have been
>sorely tempted so to do. I do so because I know how hard they would have found it to achieve what
>have managed to. If it was easy, why do so many alcoholics who give up drinking, start drinking
>again ?
<snip>
btw,
congratulations to about 7 weeks of sobriety. That's more than 1170
hours (of which every one can be agonizing), or more than 70.500
seconds.
Hang in there.
Michael,

[catsruleok]

"Michael Rapp" <m.rapp@t-online.de> wrote in message news:3f0f5e62.48025937@news.btx.dtag.de...
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:10:35 +0100, "catsruleok"
> <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Hi dougsan,
> >
> >Are there no circumstances under which you would consider it appropriate to congratulate an
> >alcoholic for not drinking ?
> >
> >I believe it is right to congratulate alcoholics who have managed not to drink when they have
been
> >sorely tempted so to do. I do so because I know how hard they would have found it to achieve what
> >have managed to. If it was easy, why do so many alcoholics who give up drinking, start drinking
> >again ?
> <snip>
> btw,
> congratulations to about 7 weeks of sobriety. That's more than 1170
> hours (of which every one can be agonizing), or more than 70.500
> seconds.
> Hang in there.
> Michael,

I intend to. I have no wish to see all that time and effort wasted :^))

JB

[rosie readandpost]

> I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to avoid drinking when they have been
> sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my congratulations, won't take notice of them.
>
> JB
>
>
>
>

i will be doing so also!
recovering from alcoholism is truly a BIG THING.........................imo!

[rosie readandpost]

imo,
"recovering" from alcoholism is a life long process.

(some talk about being RECOVERED, and some don't.)

my alcoholism has taken a physical AND emotion toll on me, and hopefully, i will be FOREVER healing from it.

i am convinced that alcoholics are DIFFERENT from others, and that continual "gentle care" is needed.
my body is healed.
i find help with my spiritual recovery in the steps of AA.
i believe it is not the only way, but the way that works for me.

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

ever wonder if we would care more about each other if we realized how much we have in common?
..............................R. Nagy




"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:KTKPa.205456$Xl.3407016@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >
> > > I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to avoid drinking when they have been
> > > sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my congratulations, won't take notice of them.
> > >
> > > JB
> >
> > i will be doing so also!
> > recovering from alcoholism is truly a BIG THING.........................imo!
> >
> Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to drink until the day they die.
> Although I frequently use the term "recovering alcoholic", your post has made wonder whether this is
> an appropriate term.
>
> If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of alcoholics who take up drinking
> again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as one in which there can be
> periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life) rather than an illness that
> can be cured.
>
> What does everyone think.
>
> JB
>
>
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:bepcfc$cmt$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:ENUPa.5863$pO5.646@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
Incidentally, your reply
> confirms what I have always thought to be true, namely that posts which you appear to consider
> irrelevant to this NG, usually produce at least one reply that greatly benefits at least one other
> subscriber.
>
> JB
>
>

i must agree with you JB!
ime, moonraker has alot to share!

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ENUPa.5863$pO5.646@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> > > periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life)
> rather than an illness that
> > > can be cured.
> > >
> > > What does everyone think.
> > >
> > > JB
>
> Worrying about such semantics takes away from the effort you need to put
> into the program of recovery you have embarked upon, does it not?

I would not disagree.

<snip>

> Conversely, the BB also says we "are granted a daily reprieve, dependent
> upon our spiritual condition". I take this to mean that despite having
> recovered, I can "catch" the disease again if I'm not careful. I'm pretty
> sure I'll eventually recover from this awful head cold I have right now,
> but the odds are that I could get another one if I don't take preventative
> measures.
>
Which perfectly illustrates the point I was making, namely: that only when an alcholic dies can he
or she claim to have been cured.

I'm very pleased that you took the trouble to reply to my post as I did not previously know AA's
view on the subject of whether alcoholism is an illness which can be cured or whether it is one
where sufferers get only periods of remission. Had I not raised the subject here, perhaps, I might
never have known what it was and I would have been all the poorer for it. Incidentally, your reply
confirms what I have always thought to be true, namely that posts which you appear to consider
irrelevant to this NG, usually produce at least one reply that greatly benefits at least one other
subscriber.

JB

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bepcfc$cmt$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:ENUPa.5863$pO5.646@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> >
> > > > periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a
life)
> > rather than an illness that
> > > > can be cured.
> > > >
> > > > What does everyone think.
> > > >
> > > > JB
> >
> > Worrying about such semantics takes away from the effort you need to put
> > into the program of recovery you have embarked upon, does it not?
>
> I would not disagree.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Conversely, the BB also says we "are granted a daily reprieve,
dependent
> > upon our spiritual condition". I take this to mean that despite having
> > recovered, I can "catch" the disease again if I'm not careful. I'm
pretty
> > sure I'll eventually recover from this awful head cold I have right now,
> > but the odds are that I could get another one if I don't take
preventative
> > measures.
> >
> Which perfectly illustrates the point I was making, namely: that only when
an alcholic dies can he
> or she claim to have been cured.
>
> I'm very pleased that you took the trouble to reply to my post as I did
not previously know AA's
> view on the subject of whether alcoholism is an illness which can be cured
or whether it is one
> where sufferers get only periods of remission. Had I not raised the
subject here, perhaps, I might
> never have known what it was and I would have been all the poorer for it.
To be totally accurate...Death cures ALL illnesses, not just alcoholism.

Ah, but you snipped the part of my first reply to you that firmly says we
"do" recover. The problem is that no recovery from anything is ever totally
permanent, whether it is from a head cold, alcoholism, skinned knees, broken
bones or pregnancy. That is, unless you take measures to not get another
cold, don't drink, watch where you and how walk, or with whom you sleep, you
are still subject to any one of the aforementioned maladies. I'm recovering
right now from a major orthopedic surgery on my shoulder. I have no
guarantee that I won't tear the rotator cuff again by just normal day to day
activities. I "can" guarantee you that I won't reactivate my alcoholism
unless I drink.

So....it's really recovery, with a daily reprieve from "catching" it again,
based upon proper maintenance.

It's good you are thinking and asking questions. Try not to read more into
the 12 steps than is written. There's no secret handshake, no hidden
meaning. Just do what the steps say and you'll be a lot happier. And quit
trying to over-analyze a toothpick. :>)


>Incidentally, your reply
> confirms what I have always thought to be true, namely that posts which
you appear to consider
> irrelevant to this NG, usually produce at least one reply that greatly
benefits at least one other
> subscriber.
>
> JB
>
>
I think that was a compliment, maybe? I'll most always try to give a
thoughtful answer to what I see as a question that is needing an answer, or
if I disagree with someone else's answer or approach. You'll note that I
have not, and likely will not, posted to the thread entitled
"mmmmmm.....chilled beer". That's nothing more than romancing the thought
of a drink.

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:dd_Pa.3660$Sf1.1892@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:bepcfc$cmt$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:ENUPa.5863$pO5.646@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > >
Many thanks for this further explanation. I now realise that I misinterpreted your original post.
..
<snip>

> It's good you are thinking and asking questions. Try not to read more into
> the 12 steps than is written. There's no secret handshake, no hidden
> meaning. Just do what the steps say and you'll be a lot happier. And quit
> trying to over-analyze a toothpick. :>)
>
I have two confessions to make. Firstly, I don't follow the 12 steps and secondly, I don't go to AA
meetings. This is because I don't yet feel ready to do so and also because some of AA's 12 steps
don't easily fit my view of what I need to do in order to manage my own drinking problem. I am happy
with what I am doing but fully appreciate that what works for me now may not be enough to keep me
off drink for the rest of my life. Hence, my openness to other proven methods and my willingness to
accept those that make sense to me.

> >Incidentally, your reply
> > confirms what I have always thought to be true, namely that posts which
> you appear to consider
> > irrelevant to this NG, usually produce at least one reply that greatly
> benefits at least one other
> > subscriber.
> >
> > JB
> >

> I think that was a compliment, maybe?

I have to confess that it was not. Again, your further explanation makes me realise that I
misinterpreted your original post.

Dear Moonraker, I greatly appreciate you taking the trouble to come back. In so doing, not only
have you given me more to think about (is that a good thing ?) but also a better understanding of
you. Thank you very much.

I hope you will very quickly make a full recovery from your op. Until next time, take care and stay
well.

JB

[catsruleok]

"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7O_Pa.3918$Sf1.289@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:KTKPa.205456$Xl.3407016@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...

<snip>

> > If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of
> alcoholics who take up drinking
> > again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as one in
> which there can be
> > periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life)
> rather than an illness that
> > can be cured.
> >
> > What does everyone think.
> >
> > JB
>
> This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into Thought." \
>
> Bobby L
>
I didn't know this. Very many thanks for the reference

JB.

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:beq2mc$430$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I have two confessions to make. Firstly, I don't follow the 12 steps and
secondly, I don't go to AA
> meetings.

That was pretty obvious, due to your life situation and the questions you
asked.


>This is because I don't yet feel ready to do so and also because some of
AA's 12 steps
> don't easily fit my view of what I need to do in order to manage my own
drinking problem.


Doing it "your" way has resulted in what, exactly? "When" do you think will
be a good time? How bad does it have to get to force you to do something?
If you are harboring an illusion that you can ever again drink like a normal
person.....it's wake-up time, JB. The fact that you have added up a few
weeks of sober time is good...but the fact is that you could have so much
more if you were to do these simple steps. Your life can change beyond your
wildest dreams......


>I am happy
> with what I am doing but fully appreciate that what works for me now may
not be enough to keep me
> off drink for the rest of my life.


For most who tried to white-knuckle sobriety, self will wasn't enough. You
seem pretty tough and smart. Maybe you'll be the first this century.


>Hence, my openness to other proven methods and my willingness to
> accept those that make sense to me.


What part of the AA program doesn't make sense to you? I guess that's
rhetorical, because if you don't go to meetings, how can you answer that?
(Other than a previous bad experience....which I think we flogged earlier.)


>I have to confess that it was not. Again, your further explanation makes me
realise that I
>misinterpreted your original post.

Sorry you didn't get it...I wasn't trying to be mysterious, honest.

>Dear Moonraker, I greatly appreciate you taking the trouble to come back.
In so doing, not only
>have you given me more to think about (is that a good thing ?) but also a
better understanding of
>you. Thank you very much.

I'm not hard to understand at all. I say what I mean and I mean what I
say. I believe in God and the program of AA. I have little use for
atheists and anti-AA trolls. Those who want to "recover" another way won't
get much encouragement from me.


> I hope you will very quickly make a full recovery from your op. Until next
time, take care and stay
> well.
>
> JB
>
Thanks for the good wishes. I've previously had 7 kidney stones (and the
resulting lithotripsies). All of the pain from them combined isn't nearly
what I dealt with with this shoulder.

[Totfit]

That Chapter must be in the 5th Edition of the Big Book. I haven't read
that one yet. :-)

Gregg

Bobby L. wrote:
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>>"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:KTKPa.205456$Xl.3407016@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>
>>>>I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to avoid
>
> drinking when they have been
>
>>>>sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my congratulations,
>
> won't take notice of them.
>
>>>>JB
>>>
>>>i will be doing so also!
>>>recovering from alcoholism is truly a BIG
>
> THING.........................imo!
>
>>Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to drink
>
> until the day they die.
>
>>Although I frequently use the term "recovering alcoholic", your post has
>
> made wonder whether this is
>
>>an appropriate term.
>>
>>If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of
>
> alcoholics who take up drinking
>
>>again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as one in
>
> which there can be
>
>>periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life)
>
> rather than an illness that
>
>>can be cured.
>>
>>What does everyone think.
>>
>>JB
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into Thought." \
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:beq6sl$755$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > What part of the AA program doesn't make sense to you? I guess that's
> > rhetorical, because if you don't go to meetings, how can you answer
that?
>
> Hey, steady on. From where I'm sitting, you appeat to be attempting to
bully me into submission.
>
That seemed to me to be a very logical, straightforward question....while
admitting that you probably couldn't answer it if you didn't attend
meetings.

I fail to see how asking that question could be "bullying" anybody.

So...question rephrased: I know you have been to meetings before. You had
an unfortunate experience. Were you around long enough to have the steps of
the program explained to you, or did you get that far? If so, what are you
(or did you) struggling with?

It's not a trick question...just offering to help if you want it. I don't
know anything about accupuncture cures or hocus-pocus cures, but I'm
willling to share with you what I know about how AA helped me. Period.

[Moonraker]

It's in the Confederate Edition we use here in GA. Not many outsiders even
know about it.


"Totfit" <gregg_fowler@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eIadnZf4I_bsPo2iXTWJiw@comcast.com...
> That Chapter must be in the 5th Edition of the Big Book. I haven't read
> that one yet. :-)
>
> Gregg
>
> Bobby L. wrote:
> > "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >>"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> >>news:KTKPa.205456$Xl.3407016@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >>
> >>>>I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to avoid
> >
> > drinking when they have been
> >
> >>>>sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my congratulations,
> >
> > won't take notice of them.
> >
> >>>>JB
> >>>
> >>>i will be doing so also!
> >>>recovering from alcoholism is truly a BIG
> >
> > THING.........................imo!
> >
> >>Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to drink
> >
> > until the day they die.
> >
> >>Although I frequently use the term "recovering alcoholic", your post has
> >
> > made wonder whether this is
> >
> >>an appropriate term.
> >>
> >>If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of
> >
> > alcoholics who take up drinking
> >
> >>again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as one in
> >
> > which there can be
> >
> >>periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life)
> >
> > rather than an illness that
> >
> >>can be cured.
> >>
> >>What does everyone think.
> >>
> >>JB
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into Thought."
\
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >
> >
>

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Hy0Qa.916$R8.744@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:beq2mc$430$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
<snip> > If you are harboring an illusion that you can ever again drink like a normal
> person.....it's wake-up time, JB. The fact that you have added up a few
> weeks of sober time is good...but the fact is that you could have so much
> more if you were to do these simple steps. Your life can change beyond your
> wildest dreams......

I'm under no such illusion.

> >Hence, my openness to other proven methods and my willingness to
> > accept those that make sense to me.
>
> What part of the AA program doesn't make sense to you? I guess that's
> rhetorical, because if you don't go to meetings, how can you answer that?

Hey, steady on. From where I'm sitting, you appeat to be attempting to bully me into submission.

<snip>

> >Dear Moonraker, I greatly appreciate you taking the trouble to come back.
> In so doing, not only
> >have you given me more to think about (is that a good thing ?) but also a
> better understanding of
> >you. Thank you very much.
>
> I'm not hard to understand at all. I say what I mean and I mean what I
> say. I believe in God and the program of AA. I have little use for
> atheists and anti-AA trolls. Those who want to "recover" another way won't
> get much encouragement from me.

<snip>
>
I'm beginning to realise that :^))

JB

[Totfit]

I'll have to check that out when I visit my daughter in Rome. Is there a
secret password or something? I am surprised it hasn't reached us here
in Nashville yet. :-)

Moonraker wrote:

> It's in the Confederate Edition we use here in GA. Not many outsiders even
> know about it.
>
>
> "Totfit" <gregg_fowler@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:eIadnZf4I_bsPo2iXTWJiw@comcast.com...
>
>>That Chapter must be in the 5th Edition of the Big Book. I haven't read
>>that one yet. :-)
>>
>>Gregg
>>
>>Bobby L. wrote:
>>
>>>"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>>>news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:KTKPa.205456$Xl.3407016@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to avoid
>>>
>>>drinking when they have been
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my congratulations,
>>>
>>>won't take notice of them.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>JB
>>>>>
>>>>>i will be doing so also!
>>>>>recovering from alcoholism is truly a BIG
>>>
>>>THING.........................imo!
>>>
>>>
>>>>Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to drink
>>>
>>>until the day they die.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Although I frequently use the term "recovering alcoholic", your post has
>>>
>>>made wonder whether this is
>>>
>>>
>>>>an appropriate term.
>>>>
>>>>If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of
>>>
>>>alcoholics who take up drinking
>>>
>>>
>>>>again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as one in
>>>
>>>which there can be
>>>
>>>
>>>>periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life)
>>>
>>>rather than an illness that
>>>
>>>
>>>>can be cured.
>>>>
>>>>What does everyone think.
>>>>
>>>>JB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into Thought."
>
> \
>
>>>Bobby L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>

[catsruleok]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:beq6sl$755$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:Hy0Qa.916$R8.744@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com...
> >
> > "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:beq2mc$430$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> <snip>

Moonraker wrote:
:
>. I have little use for
> > atheists and anti-AA trolls. Those who want to "recover" another way won't
> > get much encouragement from me.
>
Having read this again, I'm wondering what camp you put me in. If it's either, then you are
mistaken. Just because I don't yet embrace the AA programme, I have never said here or anywhere else
either that it's rubbish nor that I will never follow it. By staying with this NG and others that
you don't know I belong to, I'm bound to find out more about it and I *want to do so*. But if
everyone in AA presents its programme in the same dogmatic way as you do, then you're not the kind
of people that I'm going to feel comfortable around. I said in an earlier reply to your post that I
feel you are trying to bully me into submission. I stil feel that way. I admit that my feelings may
be wrong. Nevertheless, I think you should know that I still hold bullies largely responsible for
me developing a drink problem which has, on more than one occasion nearly destroyed my life. I
remember driving home one night from the pub many years ago after an evening of heavy drinking along
a tree-line country road and thinking how sweet it would be to kill myself by driving at full speed
into the trunk of a tree. Had I the courage needed to commit suicide, I would have done so. Even
now, I sometimes wish I had that courage. Sorry, I've got to go. The memorie evoked by your
manner of speech are making me cry.

JB

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:beqb4t$9hr$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > <snip>
> Having read this again, I'm wondering what camp you put me in.

No...people put "themselves" in camps by their own assertions. I merely
saw you as someone who was curious and asked some really good questions.
Sorry the answers were not sugar-coated as you'd have liked. I guess that's
Rosie's department. ;>(

If it's either, then you are
> mistaken.

I didn't categorize you, and, therefore, I'm not mistaken. That's "once",
so far today, that I've been right.

>Just because I don't yet embrace the AA programme, I have never said here
or anywhere else
> either that it's rubbish nor that I will never follow it. By staying with
this NG and others that
> you don't know I belong to, I'm bound to find out more about it and I
*want to do so*.

That's great. As long as you are thinking about recovery, you likely won't
be drinking? Right?


> I said in an earlier reply to your post that I
> feel you are trying to bully me into submission. I stil feel that way. I
admit that my feelings may
> be wrong.

And, in this situation, your feelings are wrong. My heart goes out to you.
Of course, I hope you will give AA a try (again) and it will help you. But
the fact remains, what you (or anybody else) does about your recovery
doesn't affect mine. I'm staying sober, whether you do or not. It seems
to me that you asked a question, got an answer you didn't like, and decided
to shoot the messenger.

Maybe you ought to work hard at reading just the words as written and not
the imaginary words between the lines? ;>)

> Sorry, I've got to go. The memorie evoked by your
> manner of speech are making me cry.
>
> JB
>
Aw.....did we just try a guilt trip on the mean old man in 'Merica?
Sweetie, you've got a long ways to go if that's the best guilt trip you can
pitch. I "know" you can do better than that. ;>)

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yk4Qa.4916$Sf1.2058@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:beqb4t$9hr$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > <snip>
<snip> >
> > Sorry, I've got to go. The memorie evoked by your
> > manner of speech are making me cry.
> >
> > JB
> >
> Aw.....did we just try a guilt trip on the mean old man in 'Merica?
> Sweetie, you've got a long ways to go if that's the best guilt trip you can
> pitch. I "know" you can do better than that. ;>)
>
Moonraker,

The respect I once had for you has no w completely gone. You have no idea how much you hurt me.
What's worse, you don't care. YI now see that you're so wrapped up in yourself and your preaching
that you can't or don't want to appreciate that you don't always have a positive effect on other
people I have no time for people as cold as you.

For the record, I was genuinely crying. I;m crying again now. This time, you'll be pleased to know
that you are not the reason for it., I've just had a phone call to say that the very good friend
who I reported here some was ago was in hospital with a terminal illness, has died.

If you consider yourself to be a fine example of an AA member and the majority of AA members
behave as you do, then to hell with you all.

JB

[Shawster]

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:yk4Qa.4916$Sf1.2058@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:beqb4t$9hr$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > <snip>
> > Having read this again, I'm wondering what camp you put me in.
>
> No...people put "themselves" in camps by their own assertions. I merely
> saw you as someone who was curious and asked some really good questions.
> Sorry the answers were not sugar-coated as you'd have liked. I guess
that's
> Rosie's department. ;>(
>
> If it's either, then you are
> > mistaken.
>
> I didn't categorize you, and, therefore, I'm not mistaken. That's "once",
> so far today, that I've been right.
>
> >Just because I don't yet embrace the AA programme, I have never said here
> or anywhere else
> > either that it's rubbish nor that I will never follow it. By staying
with
> this NG and others that
> > you don't know I belong to, I'm bound to find out more about it and I
> *want to do so*.
>
> That's great. As long as you are thinking about recovery, you likely
won't
> be drinking? Right?
>
>
> > I said in an earlier reply to your post that I
> > feel you are trying to bully me into submission. I stil feel that way.
I
> admit that my feelings may
> > be wrong.
>
> And, in this situation, your feelings are wrong. My heart goes out to
you.
> Of course, I hope you will give AA a try (again) and it will help you.
But
> the fact remains, what you (or anybody else) does about your recovery
> doesn't affect mine. I'm staying sober, whether you do or not. It seems
> to me that you asked a question, got an answer you didn't like, and
decided
> to shoot the messenger.
>
> Maybe you ought to work hard at reading just the words as written and not
> the imaginary words between the lines? ;>)

better be careful, someone will get upset if you say honest things like
that.
>
> > Sorry, I've got to go. The memorie evoked by your
> > manner of speech are making me cry.

oops looks like someone did. manner of speech? you are starting to scare me.
> >
> > JB
> >
> Aw.....did we just try a guilt trip on the mean old man in 'Merica?
> Sweetie, you've got a long ways to go if that's the best guilt trip you
can
> pitch. I "know" you can do better than that. ;>)

well there seems to be a lot of guilting going on in JB's household.

>
>
>
>

[Shawster]

must be on page 132.

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2P1Qa.19238$_j.218@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
> The main meeting where it is used is at St.Speedy's Pentecostal AME
Church
> in Haharia.
>
> "Totfit" <gregg_fowler@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:yZmcnQMcEI5MOo2iXTWJhg@comcast.com...
> > I'll have to check that out when I visit my daughter in Rome. Is there a
> > secret password or something? I am surprised it hasn't reached us here
> > in Nashville yet. :-)
> >
> > Moonraker wrote:
> >
> > > It's in the Confederate Edition we use here in GA. Not many outsiders
> even
> > > know about it.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Totfit" <gregg_fowler@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:eIadnZf4I_bsPo2iXTWJiw@comcast.com...
> > >
> > >>That Chapter must be in the 5th Edition of the Big Book. I haven't
read
> > >>that one yet. :-)
> > >>
> > >>Gregg
> > >>
> > >>Bobby L. wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > >>>news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in
message
> > >>>>news:KTKPa.205456$Xl.3407016@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>I intend to continue congratulating anyone who has managed to
avoid
> > >>>
> > >>>drinking when they have been
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>sorely tempted so to do. Those who don't welcome my
congratulations,
> > >>>
> > >>>won't take notice of them.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>JB
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>i will be doing so also!
> > >>>>>recovering from alcoholism is truly a BIG
> > >>>
> > >>>THING.........................imo!
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to
> drink
> > >>>
> > >>>until the day they die.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>Although I frequently use the term "recovering alcoholic", your post
> has
> > >>>
> > >>>made wonder whether this is
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>an appropriate term.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of
> > >>>
> > >>>alcoholics who take up drinking
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as
one
> in
> > >>>
> > >>>which there can be
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a
life)
> > >>>
> > >>>rather than an illness that
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>can be cured.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>What does everyone think.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>JB
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into
Thought."
> > >
> > > \
> > >
> > >>>Bobby L
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <Hy0Qa.916$R8.744@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> writes
>I have little use for atheists

The feeling is mutual bigot.

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <beq6sl$755$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>, catsruleok
<catsruleok@bigfoot.com> writes
>Hey, steady on. From where I'm sitting, you appeat to be attempting to
>bully me into submission.

It's the only thing he does well.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[catsruleok]

<shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:pR7Qa.11241$k85.642330@twister.tampabay.rr.co m...
>
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:yk4Qa.4916$Sf1.2058@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
> >
> > "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:beqb4t$9hr$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

(Relevant extracts from a long post)

JB wrote:> > > Sorry, I've got to go. The memorie evoked by your
> > > manner of speech are making me cry.
Shaw wrote:

> oops looks like someone did. manner of speech? you are starting to scare me.

Hi Shaw,

I have no desire to change the way people speak, Even if I wanted, I'm not powerful enough to do
that :^))

If I express feelings, I know that everyone will make of what I say, what they want If they care
to express,
their opinions, that's fine by me. .

Shaw wrote:

> well there seems to be a lot of guilting going on in JB's household.

You are wrong to assume that I'm on an guilt trip.

BTW, I know the reasons why I drink. I know that
what I do now keeps me from drinking now but that it may not be enough to keep me from drinking for
ever. I find help from people who I respect - which includes, surprising enough, people who I know
are AA members.

You said to me once that I ought not to try to cope alone (it was just after I received that letter,
remember ?). In reply, I explained why I was careful about what I said to whom. The conversation
Moonraker and I have just had, gives me no reason to think that I should now behave otherwise..

Finally, let me tell you that I know I am a very strong person who has momentary lapses of
weakness. I am also a sensitive person who cares deeply about the feelings of others. I shall be
glad for you and others to make of that
what you will :^)).

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <ber1mh$r3h$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, catsruleok
<catsruleok@bigfoot.com> writes
>Moonraker,
>
>The respect I once had for you has no w completely gone. You have no
>idea how much you hurt me. What's worse, you don't care. YI now see
>that you're so wrapped up in yourself and your preaching that you can't
>or don't want to appreciate that you don't always have a positive
>effect on other people I have no time for people as cold as you.

It would appear to be the only form of validation he gets. He feels good
by making others feel bad. If I had been in two minds about AA and it's
methods - no longer. Possibly he hates AA?
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Bobby L.]

<snip - it's all above if you want to read it>

JB,

You don't get it. You're all bent out of shape because you dislike the
level of honesty displayed by Moon -- you sound like you want to wait and
get everything in order and then get sober. You say you want to stay sober
yet you are already planning you explanation for your next drink. At what
point would you suggest we give you the real honest truth? For some of us,
this is not a discussion about philosphy -- it is a discussion about Life or
a long slow suicide. You would prefer we let you die in ignorance?

No guilt trip? "you made me cry, you bad man." Yeah -- no guilt trip
there. You probably have not spent any great deal of time around recovering
alcoholics. You have no idea the amount of laughter that comment generated.
Because you see, we all tried shit like that, too.

Nobody made you cry -- you choose what you do. YOU are responsible for ALL
the bullshit in your life today. Nobody made you drink -- Nobody made you
an alcoholic -- alcoholics choose to be alcoholics. That blame crap might
work with a psychologist or a codependent, but not with many of us. We
tried that too. You are not unique -- you have the same sad story the rest
of have -- it's just a different bookcover. Once you get inside though,
it's all the same.

You indicate you don't think this is Life or Death -- For you Sobriety is
less important than martyring yourself for a paraplegic. We happen to
disagree. No extra points here for martyrdom.

Oh and by the way -- there is NO chapter in the Big Book called "Into
Thought." Perhaps someone figured out you cannot "think" yourself sober for
any length of time. So why did I offer such a thing if it did not exist?
There was a small chance you might open a Big Book and discover there is no
chapter called "into thought." Then there was a even smaller chance you
might read part of the book to discover why there is no chapter called "into
thought." Then there was an even smaller chance you might find the message.
There is no chapter or part of any (to include MM and RR) recovery
program called "Into Thought." This chapter exists only the hopes and
dreams of practicing alcoholics.

You answered a big question there for many. You mentioned you have some
experience in the past with AA, but your thankfulness for my "thoughtful
suggestion" indicates you have not even opened "The Basic Text of Alcoholics
Anonymous." So you've look at the cover and decided you did not like what
it said. You don't like the color blue?

Forgive us or not ... it doesn't much matter to us. Live or die -- your
choice. At one point in a situation like this, many an alcoholic will spent
a few days trying to overcome the bullshit with arguements many perceive to
be angry. So how would deal with a Cancer patient that wants to live, but
refuses to take the medication? This difference is that at some point most
of us will stop trying until we see you are ready to "hear." Too much time
wasted on someone who is not ready to quit is time taken away from someone
else who has chosen to live.

And Jonathon -- I would suggest in the future if you see someone drowning
you leave them be -- don't throw them an anchor.

Bobby L

[rosie readandpost]

>
> This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into Thought." \
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>

bobby,
did you mean INTO ACTION?

or where you just "fooling us?"

[rosie readandpost]

>....................... I merely
> saw you as someone who was curious and asked some really good questions.
> Sorry the answers were not sugar-coated as you'd have liked. I guess that's
> Rosie's department. ;>(
>


you call your answers to JB " attraction?" (tradition 11)
imo, your behavior dealing with other peoples feelings sounds like nothing but DRY DRUNK behavior!
are you taking pain pills for your injury/surgery perhaps they are affecting your attitude?
if not, print out your replies to JB and show them to your sponsor...................

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:U7eQa.103727$fe.2251681@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >....................... I merely
> > saw you as someone who was curious and asked some really good questions.
> > Sorry the answers were not sugar-coated as you'd have liked. I guess
that's
> > Rosie's department. ;>(
> >
>
>
> you call your answers to JB " attraction?" (tradition 11)
> imo, your behavior dealing with other peoples feelings sounds like
nothing but DRY DRUNK behavior!
> are you taking pain pills for your injury/surgery perhaps they are
affecting your attitude?
> if not, print out your replies to JB and show them to your
sponsor...................
>
>
>
Ah, Rosie? Go read the Doctor's Opinion on pg. xxvi. "Frothy emotional
appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these
alcoholics must have depth and weight."

I'll leave the nose-wiping and pity-pot cleaning to you. ;>)

BTW...my sponsor is even harder-nosed than I am.
>
>

[Moonraker]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cmeIKiMQjRE$EwVG@aol.com...
> In message <Hy0Qa.916$R8.744@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> writes
> >I have little use for atheists
>
> The feeling is mutual bigot.
>
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

We seem a bit grumpy today.

[Bobby L.]

<see above>

JB,

I was not trying to be insulting - it was meant to be honest, although I do
tend to suffer from "smart-assery." (I will admit the laughter comment was
probably insulting). The remainder were responses to things you've said or
We're not saints -- we're just people. When I got here, I heard a lot of
things I found insulting. After all, who were these people to think they
understood me, why I drank, how difficult my life was, or how I felt? They
could not possibly understand the stress in my life and certainly did not
understand how "well" I was doing, "all things considered." Does any of
this sound familiar?

Did you consider answering any of my questions?

1) At what point would you suggest we give you the real honest truth?
Rephrase: At what point would you like us to start being honest with you in
our responses to your statements?

2) No guilt trip? Rephrase: take another look at the "suicide" post and
consider that reads like a whining "it's all your fault."

3) You don't like the color blue? Rephrase: Have you ever read the book,
"Alcoholics Anonymous?" [Even just 164 pages]

4) So how would you deal with a Cancer patient that wants to live, but
refuses to take the medication? Rephrase: What would "you" do in a
situation where someone has a terminal disease that can be arrested if they
will take the medication -- and perhaps their only chance at life is YOU.
Please give this answer some thought.

Whether you go to AA or not is up to you. Hell, I suggest if you'd rather
try RR, try that; I strongly suggest you to do something besides your own
white knuckles, gnashed teeth and "thinking" about it. Oddly enough, It
does not really matter whether you "like" what I say or not -- What does
matter is whether you live or die -- and all because one day not too long
ago, a stranger cared whether or not I lived or died. Does that make me a
saint? Nope - I'm just doing what they told me to do. This part is about me
living! Is it HARD? You bet - Honest, Appropriate, Respectful, Direct!

Bobby L

[Bobby L.]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fJdQa.103722$fe.2250325@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> >
> > This is discussed in the chapter of the Big Book called "Into Thought."
> >
> > Bobby L
> >
> >
> >
>
> bobby,
> did you mean INTO ACTION?
>
> or where you just "fooling us?"
>
>

The only way to find out is to open up a Big Book and read it!

Bobby L

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <XTfQa.5573$R8.3156@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
<moonrak9@bellsouth.net> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:cmeIKiMQjRE$EwVG@aol.com...
>> In message <Hy0Qa.916$R8.744@fe04.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
>> <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> writes
>> >I have little use for atheists
>>
>> The feeling is mutual bigot.
>>
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>We seem a bit grumpy today.
>
>
>
Only with people who try to denigrate me and insinuate I am interested
in sex with children.

--
Jonathan Bratt

[Moonraker]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Wp06pcA4mdE$Ew13@aol.com...
> Only with people who try to denigrate me >
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

Oh, I think you've done quite a good enough job of that by your own
example.

[catsruleok]

"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:t8hQa.10642$pO5.3841@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com. ..
> <see above>
>
> JB,
>
> I was not trying to be insulting - it was meant to be honest, although I do
> tend to suffer from "smart-assery." (I will admit the laughter comment was
> probably insulting). The remainder were responses to things you've said or
> We're not saints -- we're just people. When I got here, I heard a lot of
> things I found insulting. After all, who were these people to think they
> understood me, why I drank, how difficult my life was, or how I felt? They
> could not possibly understand the stress in my life and certainly did not
> understand how "well" I was doing, "all things considered." Does any of
> this sound familiar?

Yes it does.
>
> Did you consider answering any of my questions?

<snip questions>

I did but I now realise that almost anything I say is likely to be misinterpreted. So that reason,
for the time being, I'll be keeping my head below the parapet in order to avoid becoming yet more
cannon fodder.

JB

[rosie readandpost]

>.................... Go read the Doctor's Opinion on pg. xxvi. "Frothy emotional
> appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these
> alcoholics must have depth and weight."
>


your interpretation of depth and weight is certainly NOT mine!
good grief!

[rosie readandpost]

> The only way to find out is to open up a Big Book and read it!
>
> Bobby L
>
>
>
>
>

bobby,
if your talking of the BIG BOOK of AA.
it is not within the first 164 pages.

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PonQa.210151$Xl.3573290@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > The only way to find out is to open up a Big Book and read it!
> >
> > Bobby L
>
> bobby,
> if your talking of the BIG BOOK of AA.
> it is not within the first 164 pages.
>
Rosie....don't you feel that tugging on your leg, yet? :>)

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gnnQa.210150$Xl.3573153@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >.................... Go read the Doctor's Opinion on pg. xxvi. "Frothy
emotional
> > appeal seldom suffices. The message which can interest and hold these
> > alcoholics must have depth and weight."
> >
>
>
> your interpretation of depth and weight is certainly NOT mine!
> good grief!
>
Apparently not.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((moon))))))))))))))))) ))))))))) wouldn't have
had much appeal to me at all.

But another drunk "telling my story" sure got my attention.

[rosie readandpost]

> Yes, I am indeed now preaching to the
> choir, but perhaps someone in the congregation is listening.
>


you bet you are!
i have been through (read with a group) the BIG BOOK (cover to cover) many, many times!
(i belonged to my BIG BOOK group for ten years.

bobby,
i believe it is in the "nature" of an alcoholic to try to THINK their way through a
problem............................at least for awhile...................

[rosie readandpost]

> Apparently not.
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((moon))))))))))))))))) ))))))))) wouldn't have
> had much appeal to me at all.
>
> But another drunk "telling my story" sure got my attention.
>
>
>

i found both VERY appealing............................and share my experience, strength, and hope, just the same way it
was done for me!
i have listened to many speakers over the years, and the ones that ALWAYS appeal to me, are the gentle, sincere, and
caring folks!
(folks don't need to be yelled at, for them to hear "the message".....................
"telling my story" can be done without being nasty!
"telling my story" can be done without being bossy!
i share what i know to be true for me, and i assume you do the same.

rosie

[Robert McGregor]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:beogmo$fv$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...

> Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to drink
until the day they die.

Given that in this newsgroup, there is no accepted definition on what
alcoholism actually is, all options remain open.

Originally, Alcoholics Anonymous was the last option for *hopeless* drunks,
after all other options, from desperate attempts at moderation, to medical
intervention, had failed. That many did recover from such a hopeless state
of body and mind is on record. That one of the two recognised Big Book
authors returned to liquor, the other to years of suicidal depression, is
also on record. (AA itself, founded by a "stockbroker" who was in reality a
failed stockmarket groupie, was never a bastion of rigorous honesty)

Today, even kids who have not even contemplated moderation are recruited
into AA, and call themselves alcoholics. Therefore, even in AA, what is
purportedly being recovered from is not necessarily the same thing, at all.
Many AA members, having found niches as AA sponsors and/or in the treatment
industry for their arguably otherwise useless selves, claim that to be
*recovered* is an impossible dream. Maybe, given their aptitude for meddling
in lives other than their own, that is all too true.

Neither fitting the revised AA model of what an alcoholic is, ("The AA
member - Medications & other Drugs") nor qualifying for AA membership (The
only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking) I have
indisputably recovered from the hopeless state of body and mind associated
with decades of fighting, unsuccessfully, an adverse reaction to alcohol.

Should I, through neglect, or perversity, abandon the principles embodied in
the 12 steps that lifted me out of my quandary, I have every reason to
believe I would land right back in it.



Bob.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <j4lQa.8471$Sf1.4607@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:Wp06pcA4mdE$Ew13@aol.com...
>> Only with people who try to denigrate me >
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>Oh, I think you've done quite a good enough job of that by your own
>example.
>
>
>
Only to bigots.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Robert McGregor]

"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:n6JQa.286$oa4.218@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:_WFQa.259$Po3.76@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
> >
> > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:I7pQa.213699$jT4.4039918@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >
> > > > Yes, I am indeed now preaching to the
> > > > choir, but perhaps someone in the congregation is listening.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > you bet you are!
> > > i have been through (read with a group) the BIG BOOK (cover to cover)
> > many, many times!
> > > (i belonged to my BIG BOOK group for ten years.
> > >
> > > bobby,
> > > i believe it is in the "nature" of an alcoholic to try to THINK their
> way
> > through a
> > > problem............................at least for
> awhile...................
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I agree, but I don't believe it should be encouraged nor enabled.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Oops -- one too many "not's"
>
>
>
Thinking yerself into knots eh, Bobby?

Bob;-)

[Bobby L.]

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bevnqt$9dvs3$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:n6JQa.286$oa4.218@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com...
> >
> > "Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:_WFQa.259$Po3.76@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > >
> > > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:I7pQa.213699$jT4.4039918@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > >
> > > > > Yes, I am indeed now preaching to the
> > > > > choir, but perhaps someone in the congregation is listening.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > you bet you are!
> > > > i have been through (read with a group) the BIG BOOK (cover to
cover)
> > > many, many times!
> > > > (i belonged to my BIG BOOK group for ten years.
> > > >
> > > > bobby,
> > > > i believe it is in the "nature" of an alcoholic to try to THINK
their
> > way
> > > through a
> > > > problem............................at least for
> > awhile...................
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > I agree, but I don't believe it should be encouraged nor enabled.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Oops -- one too many "not's"
> >
> >
> >
> Thinking yerself into knots eh, Bobby?
>
> Bob;-)
>
>

Proves it not safe to even think about thinking!

Bobby :)

[Blue Moon]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 09:58:57 +0100, "catsruleok"
<catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Do alcoholics ever recover ? Perhaps, only if they manage not to drink until the day they die.
>Although I frequently use the term "recovering alcoholic", your post has made wonder whether this is
>an appropriate term.
>
>If we think alcoholism is an illness, then, given the number of alcoholics who take up drinking
>again ( me, for one), perhaps we need to think of this illness as one in which there can be
>periods of remission (which may last the whole of the rest of a life) rather than an illness that
>can be cured.
>
>What does everyone think.

Well I guess that's one way of thinking yourself into a relapse!

Just as an analogy I prefer to think of alcoholism as akin to
something like heart disease. Through a series of exercises and
directions the heart patient can arrest the immediate symptoms of his
condition. Those directions include a few simple rules he needs to
follow each day after his convalescence. If he doesn't follow those
rules, he'll be in much greater danger of another heart attack.

If he follows all the directions, a year or so after diagnosis is his
heart "cured" in the sense that it's restored to the condition prior
to the disease? No - he still needs that daily maintenance. But has
he recovered from the condition? Sure.

And, of course, there are many who were diagnosed with heart disease,
yet are willing to gamble with their lives by deciding not to adhere
to the directions. They probably won't realize such lack of wisdom
until it's almost too late. Relapse comes again, not because it was
inevitable but because the individual was living life on self will and
disregarding the directions offered.

--
Blue Moon