6-5-04

[rosie read and post]

************************************************** *********

Twenty-Four Hours A Day

A.A. Thought For The Day

We alcoholics are fortunate to be living in a day and age when there
is
such a thing as Alcoholics Anonymous. Before A.A. came into being,
there was very little hope for the alcoholic. A.A. is a great
rebuilder of
human wreckage. It takes men and women whose personality problem
expresses itself in alcoholism and offers them a program that, if
they
are willing to accept it, allows them not only to get sober, but
also to
find a much better way of living. Have I found a better way of
living?

Meditation For The Day

Very quietly God (HP) speaks through your thoughts and feelings.
Heed the
Divine voice of your conscience. Listen for this and you will never
be
disappointed in the results in your life. Listen for this small,
still voice
and your tired nerves will become rested. The Divine voice comes to
you as strength as well as tenderness, as power as well as
restfulness.
Your moral strength derives its effectiveness from the power that
comes
when you listen patiently for the still, small voice.

Prayer For The Day

I pray that I may listen for the still, small voice of God (HP). I
pray that I
may obey the leading of my conscience.

************************************************** *********

[Ron]

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:57:20 GMT, rosie read and post
<readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:

> We alcoholics are fortunate to be living in a day and age when there
> is such a thing as Alcoholics Anonymous. Before A.A. came into being,
> there was very little hope for the alcoholic.

Oh bullshit. AA is just another temperance movement.

"... the temperance revolution of the past century would yet remain to be
accomplished.... Every successful temperance movement of the last
century has been merely the instrument-the machinery and equipment
through which the fundamental principles of the Christian religion have
expressed themselves in terms of life and action"
* Cherrington, 1920:92

The unimaginative Bill Wilson simply based his group's principles on
concepts copied from a Lutheran Minister who openly admired Adolf
Hitler, to boot.

I wish Carrie Nation was still around chasing people with her hatchet.

> I pray that I may listen for the still, small voice of God (HP).

"The only cure for dipsomania is religiomania."
* "some medical man"
** Bill Wilson

mania/maniac.

--
AB5DB9CC

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:18:32 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>Oh bullshit. AA is just another temperance movement.

Sounds to me like you've been "got at" by the anti-AA temperance
movement.

>The unimaginative Bill Wilson simply based his group's principles on
>concepts copied from a Lutheran Minister who openly admired Adolf
>Hitler, to boot.

There were many people who admired and even directly supported Hitler
in the years preceding WWII. Fascism was diametrically opposed to
communism. This, according to history, is why Buchman admired Hitler
in those days. He said "I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler,
who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of
Communism." Buchman was opposed to communism, Hitler was a front for
communist opposition, therefore Buchman was thankful for Hitler.

Henry Ford was considered the most notorious pro-Hitler backer. In
1919, he stated.

"International financiers are behind all wars. They are what is called
the International Jew; German-Jews, French-Jews, English-Jews,
American-Jews ... the Jew is the threat."

Ford and General Electric were also funding Hitler's war machine,
directly and indirectly. And yet, Ford is renowned today for his
cars, not his support for Nazism or the terrorism of his own workers.

So when you see a Ford on the road, or the engine of an F-16 aircraft
on TV, or take a carton of milk from the 'fridge, do you see the
results of Nazi support?

If you don't see it amongst today's cars, aircraft or refrigerators,
why look for it amongst today's sober alcoholics? It wouldn't even be
a reasonable comparison, because AA broke away from Buchman's
organisation. Buchman was never an AA member, therefore you should be
making *less* equation of AA with Nazism than you do with Ford, GE or
many other manufacturers and politicians that existed then.

Besides, modern-day western leaders are more like Adolf Hitler than
Karl Marx.

--
Blue Moon

[rosie read and post]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:c2wwc.50689$eY2.44917@attbi_s02...
: On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:57:20 GMT, rosie read and post
: <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:
:
: > We alcoholics are fortunate to be living in a day and age when
there
: > is such a thing as Alcoholics Anonymous. Before A.A. came into
being,
: > there was very little hope for the alcoholic.
:
: Oh bullshit. AA is just another temperance movement.
:


TEMPERANCE

Temperance is the virtue of moderation and self-control in anything,
but especially in indulgence in pleasures. Temperance, in the large
sense of moderation or self-control, was the characteristic Greek
virtue. For Plato, temperance is one of the four cardinal virtues,
both in the state and in the individual. He describes it as a
harmony or agreement between the higher and the lower parts - the
governing and the governed in the state, the rational and the
appetitive in the soul resulting in the obedience of the lower to
the higher. While Aristotle's specific virtue of temperance is still
narrower in its range than Plato's, in his doctrine of the mean he
may be said to reduce all virtue to the habit of moderation or
temperance in the large sense. Christianity reaffirmed the
importance of this virtue, deepening and broadening the Greek
conception of it. The new emphasis given by Christianity to the
negative element in temperance, through its principle "die to live"
led to the exaggeration of temperance into abstinence, which is, in
Aristotle's eyes, an extreme - that of defect - no less than excess.

the internet encyclopedia of philosophy





last time i checked, moderation was an unachievable goal!

;)

[Ron]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 04:44:17 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:18:32 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:
>
>>Oh bullshit. AA is just another temperance movement.
>
> Sounds to me like you've been "got at" by the anti-AA temperance
> movement.

Nope. Not anti-AA. Just anti-AA-worship.

>>The unimaginative Bill Wilson simply based his group's principles on
>>concepts copied from a Lutheran Minister who openly admired Adolf
>>Hitler, to boot.

> There were many people who admired and even directly supported Hitler
> in the years preceding WWII. Fascism was diametrically opposed to
> communism. This, according to history, is why Buchman admired Hitler
> in those days.

Nevertheless, it doesn't speak well of his intellect or worldview. His
view was that a man who obtained absolute power would be a good thing,
if he could be converted to Christianity. Brilliant.

> Henry Ford was considered the most notorious pro-Hitler backer.

I'm sure the world is full of assholes. I don't buy their recovery
programs or their cars.

> Besides, modern-day western leaders are more like Adolf Hitler than
> Karl Marx.

Ain't that the truth.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rockhound]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 03:18:32 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:57:20 GMT, rosie read and post
><readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We alcoholics are fortunate to be living in a day and age when there
>> is such a thing as Alcoholics Anonymous. Before A.A. came into being,
>> there was very little hope for the alcoholic.
>
>Oh bullshit. AA is just another temperance movement.
>
>"... the temperance revolution of the past century would yet remain to be
>accomplished.... Every successful temperance movement of the last
>century has been merely the instrument-the machinery and equipment
>through which the fundamental principles of the Christian religion have
>expressed themselves in terms of life and action"
>* Cherrington, 1920:92
>
>The unimaginative Bill Wilson simply based his group's principles on
>concepts copied from a Lutheran Minister who openly admired Adolf
>Hitler, to boot.
>
>I wish Carrie Nation was still around chasing people with her hatchet.
>
>> I pray that I may listen for the still, small voice of God (HP).
>
>"The only cure for dipsomania is religiomania."
>* "some medical man"
>** Bill Wilson
>
>mania/maniac.


"Shucks!" says somebody. "This is nonsense. It isn't practical."

[Ron]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 07:38:35 -0500, rosie read and post
<readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:

> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
> news:c2wwc.50689$eY2.44917@attbi_s02...

> TEMPERANCE
>
> Temperance is the virtue of moderation and self-control in anything,
> but especially in indulgence in pleasures.
....
> last time i checked, moderation was an unachievable goal!

"Temperance may be defined as:
moderation in all things healthful;
total abstinence from all things harmful."

Xenophon (Greek philosopher), 400 B. C.

But I was speaking specifically of temperance movements, not
'temperance' in the abstract. Those movements did often advocate total
abstinence.

Which is all beside the primary point, which is that Bill Wilson's AA is
just more christian religion masquerading as recovery. Which is not to
say everything about AA is bad. There seem to be any number of sensible
people who take the HP BS with a big grain of salt, readjust their
compass, and get their bearings again. Other people seem to do just the
same, in spite of thinking religion is somehow involved.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rockhound]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 13:40:16 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 07:38:35 -0500, rosie read and post
><readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
>> news:c2wwc.50689$eY2.44917@attbi_s02...
>
>> TEMPERANCE
>>
>> Temperance is the virtue of moderation and self-control in anything,
>> but especially in indulgence in pleasures.
>...
>> last time i checked, moderation was an unachievable goal!
>
>"Temperance may be defined as:
>moderation in all things healthful;
>total abstinence from all things harmful."
>
>Xenophon (Greek philosopher), 400 B. C.
>
>But I was speaking specifically of temperance movements, not
>'temperance' in the abstract. Those movements did often advocate total
>abstinence.
>
>Which is all beside the primary point, which is that Bill Wilson's AA is
>just more christian religion masquerading as recovery. Which is not to
>say everything about AA is bad. There seem to be any number of sensible
>people who take the HP BS with a big grain of salt, readjust their
>compass, and get their bearings again. Other people seem to do just the
>same, in spite of thinking religion is somehow involved.


I tried to post this thru a crap server and it didn't propagate.

I been pissed off lately because I can't find a 'God', and step 3
can't find one either, and i got pushed all the way to step 11 for a
daily living frustration cure/fix. I been pissed off about everything
lately.

Anyway, drink, don't drink, nobody cares. Toke, don't toke, pop
pills, walk through the desert to find a shaman, dance around a
bonfire half naked, take a primal scream challenge, or sit on the
reserve for the Great Eagle Bear to come and remove your problems.
Whatever. None of those will pay the rent.

AA is a thing of itself and has been here many times before and will
continue to rear its ugly head in the so-called 'civilization' of
mankind, for us to gawk, laugh at, condemn as flakey, despair as being
out of our reach, at any rate to observe, and relate ourselves to in
some way, according to where each of us find ourselves.

When the mouthy street kid Jesus Christ sobered up, he tried to get
meetings going too, but they didn't take because his personality was
so extreme and troublesome that *nobody* wanted what he had.

Corporate stumblebum Bill Wilson, ever bearing the 'sins of the
father', attempted to pick up where JC et al. left off, moderating
between the ever wayward drunk and God, and leave us the ultimate
freedom to be mundane, less-than, and ignoble.

What will be the next contribution, i wonder. Maybe a new
hallucinogenic mushroom will be discovered buried in the sands of
Iraq. Maybe Bill Gates'll start a corporate confession e-booth.

wayward, useless, daring thot for the day,
rock the casbah

[rockhound]

Temperance: All things in moderation, including moderation.

Constant character-building pressure causes nothing but insufferable
internal rebellion and backlash, imo. Most days, there's nothing i'd
like better than to just take a whack at somebody.
Well...everybody...actually. Self-restraint gets old fast.



Here, i bring u the Serenity Prayer, short form, modernized,
rockhound-style, for those who wish, or find it useful - i've tried
it, it doesn't hurt:


"Fuck it."

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:56:05 -0400, rockhound <helo@null.com> wrote:

>I been pissed off lately because I can't find a 'God', and step 3
>can't find one either, and i got pushed all the way to step 11 for a
>daily living frustration cure/fix.

Given that Step 12 promises a spiritual awakening as "the result of"
taking the first 11 Steps, it's not surprising that you've not had
such an awakening at Step 3.

How did you "get pushed" all the way to Step 11? You missed a whole
bunch of actions in the middle. That's like a kid insisting on
understanding algebra when he hasn't yet learned how to add.

>I been pissed off about everything lately.

That's no coincidence with trying to intellectualise the Steps and
falling short of comprehending them.

>Anyway, drink, don't drink, nobody cares. Toke, don't toke, pop
>pills, walk through the desert to find a shaman, dance around a
>bonfire half naked, take a primal scream challenge, or sit on the
>reserve for the Great Eagle Bear to come and remove your problems.
>Whatever. None of those will pay the rent.

I know of no AA Step that says the rent will be paid. What is your
priority, paying rent or recovering from alcoholism?

--
Blue Moon

[rosie read and post]

: "Temperance may be defined as:
: moderation in all things healthful;
: total abstinence from all things harmful."


who says alcohol is harmful?

alcohol is harmful for me..................many members of my family
handle it just fine.

--
rosie

Have you heard of the NO-CARB Diet for 2004?
NO C-heney
NO A-shcroft
NO R-umsfeld
NO B-ush






"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:49Fwc.14131$Sw.847@attbi_s51...
: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 07:38:35 -0500, rosie read and post
: <readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:
:
: > "Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
: > news:c2wwc.50689$eY2.44917@attbi_s02...
:
: > TEMPERANCE
: >
: > Temperance is the virtue of moderation and self-control in
anything,
: > but especially in indulgence in pleasures.
: ...
: > last time i checked, moderation was an unachievable goal!
:
: "Temperance may be defined as:
: moderation in all things healthful;
: total abstinence from all things harmful."
:
: Xenophon (Greek philosopher), 400 B. C.
:
: But I was speaking specifically of temperance movements, not
: 'temperance' in the abstract. Those movements did often advocate
total
: abstinence.
:
: Which is all beside the primary point, which is that Bill Wilson's
AA is
: just more christian religion masquerading as recovery. Which is
not to
: say everything about AA is bad. There seem to be any number of
sensible
: people who take the HP BS with a big grain of salt, readjust their
: compass, and get their bearings again. Other people seem to do
just the
: same, in spite of thinking religion is somehow involved.
:
: --
: AB5DB9CC

[rockhound]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:16:03 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I know of no AA Step that says the rent will be paid. What is your
>priority, paying rent or recovering from alcoholism?

Well, Blue, my intellectual undersanding was that, fundamentally, i
can't have one without the other, but i may have been misled (again).

What does God look like?

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:56:53 -0400, rockhound <helo@null.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:16:03 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I know of no AA Step that says the rent will be paid. What is your
>>priority, paying rent or recovering from alcoholism?
>
>Well, Blue, my intellectual undersanding was that, fundamentally, i
>can't have one without the other

Sure you can.

>What does God look like?

I've no idea. What does that have to do with either alcoholic
recovery or paying rent?

--
Blue Moon

[rockhound]

Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:56:53 -0400, rockhound <helo@null.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:16:03 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I know of no AA Step that says the rent will be paid. What is your
>>>priority, paying rent or recovering from alcoholism?
>>
>>Well, Blue, my intellectual undersanding was that, fundamentally, i
>>can't have one without the other
>
>Sure you can.
>
>>What does God look like?
>
>I've no idea. What does that have to do with either alcoholic
>recovery or paying rent?


fuck it - too confusing.

[rockhound]

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 01:24:36 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:


Hey Blue r u married? Ever been?

just wondering, man.
rock

[Ron]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 21:59:51 GMT, rosie read and post
<readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:

>: "Temperance may be defined as:
>: moderation in all things healthful;
>: total abstinence from all things harmful."

> who says alcohol is harmful?
>
> alcohol is harmful for me..................many members of my family
> handle it just fine.

Do you abstain on behalf of other members of your family, or yourself?

I wonder if anyone in the Women's Christian Temperance Union, from whose
site I clipped the above definition (http://www.wctu.org/), ever paused
to wonder whether implying that an ancient Greek writer supplied a
definition of a modern English word could be considered disingenuous.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rockhound]

there's nobody here, ron.

[rockhound]

On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 03:13:08 GMT, Ron <can@the.spam> wrote:

>On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 21:59:51 GMT, rosie read and post
><readandpost@yahooORhotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>: "Temperance may be defined as:
>>: moderation in all things healthful;
>>: total abstinence from all things harmful."
>
>> who says alcohol is harmful?
>>
>> alcohol is harmful for me..................many members of my family
>> handle it just fine.
>
>Do you abstain on behalf of other members of your family, or yourself?
>
>I wonder if anyone in the Women's Christian Temperance Union, from whose
>site I clipped the above definition (http://www.wctu.org/), ever paused
>to wonder whether implying that an ancient Greek writer supplied a
>definition of a modern English word could be considered disingenuous.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=disingenuous

i will leave this here contribution for whomsoever cometh 'round at
their dawn

[Ron]

On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 23:13:55 -0400, rockhound <helo@null.com> wrote:

> there's nobody here, ron.

spooky

stop talking to me, i'm asleep.

--
AB5DB9CC

[rosie read and post]

:
: Do you abstain on behalf of other members of your family, or
yourself?
:
:


i abstain for myself, for me,my recovery from alcoholism requires
it.

my response was an answer to your comment that AA was about
temperance.
as you know.