ON CONFESSIONS AND STEP 5

[rockhound]

If you bared all, or even part, to most people, human nature is such
that they will punt you all the way up the prison steps, or nuthouse,
and you will never get to step 9, the making of direct amends, and
inflow and outflow of peace.

Be forewarned. Choose your dance partners carefully.

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:28:18 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:

>
>If you bared all, or even part, to most people, human nature is such
>that they will punt you all the way up the prison steps, or nuthouse,
>and you will never get to step 9, the making of direct amends, and
>inflow and outflow of peace.
>
>Be forewarned. Choose your dance partners carefully.

Given that you've not even taken Step 3, why are you concerned about
Step 5?

--
Blue Moon

[rockhound]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:32:05 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:28:18 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>If you bared all, or even part, to most people, human nature is such
>>that they will punt you all the way up the prison steps, or nuthouse,
>>and you will never get to step 9, the making of direct amends, and
>>inflow and outflow of peace.
>>
>>Be forewarned. Choose your dance partners carefully.
>
>Given that you've not even taken Step 3, why are you concerned about
>Step 5?

ooooh busted!

ahmmm...disordered house ?

down the snakes and up the ladders ?

checking out the empty abode, *before* i make an offer?

checking if the price is negotiable?

coming to terms with the acceptance of a spiritual way of life once
and for all ?

confession, restitution, and the constant thought of others might have
too many stairs for me to climb.

et al.

---------
Piss off. No parky.

[rockhound]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:32:05 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:28:18 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>If you bared all, or even part, to most people, human nature is such
>>that they will punt you all the way up the prison steps, or nuthouse,
>>and you will never get to step 9, the making of direct amends, and
>>inflow and outflow of peace.
>>
>>Be forewarned. Choose your dance partners carefully.
>
>Given that you've not even taken Step 3, why are you concerned about
>Step 5?

I guess i should mention, i've gone through all 12 chapters before,
and still wound up in chapter 13, so i must have missed some fine
print.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/11/ch13.html

They say, the devil's in the details...

Some of us want to be sure what we're getting ourselves into is not
just another sham rip-off.

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:11:51 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:32:05 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:28:18 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>If you bared all, or even part, to most people, human nature is such
>>>that they will punt you all the way up the prison steps, or nuthouse,
>>>and you will never get to step 9, the making of direct amends, and
>>>inflow and outflow of peace.
>>>
>>>Be forewarned. Choose your dance partners carefully.
>>
>>Given that you've not even taken Step 3, why are you concerned about
>>Step 5?
>
>I guess i should mention, i've gone through all 12 chapters before,
>and still wound up in chapter 13, so i must have missed some fine
>print.
>
>http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/11/ch13.html
>
>They say, the devil's in the details...
>
>Some of us want to be sure what we're getting ourselves into is not
>just another sham rip-off.

Understandable. My faith was rocked by such misplaced faith in stuff
like booze or other people, so I also had plenty of doubts. At one
point I didn't even have enough faith to get out of bed, let alone
open any curtains, answer the 'phone, answer the door, wash, do
laundry, etc. And this was whilst sober.

However, the problem here is that the decision over whether you're
getting into just another sham rip-off is based on how you feel or
what you believe today, rather than how you feel or what you believe
as the result of having taken some of the actions. Each action brings
about some change, which can prepare you for the next action. Simply
reading it brings about little, if any, change at all.

I had similar issues when I came in. For a start, I did NOT want any
of that "God stuff". It was a huge turn-off for me.

I did not "want what we have". However, I was willing to go to any
lengths to quit feeling the way I did. My life was completely
unmanageable *without* booze inside.

So I did not like much of what I read when I started out - certainly
not the idea of "humbly" doing anything at all, making amends (though
I was slightly relieved it didn't say "apologise" because that really
would have been an insult to my pride), or working with other
alcoholics ("what do I get out of it?"). But I was willing to work
through it anyway.

One question in my mind was, "am I alcoholic, or simply insane?" I
didn't know the answer to that. It wasn't until I'd been sober for
some months that it really began to dawn on me just how ill I really
had become. In that respect, my alcoholism was quite shocking. As a
result, for some time I was also royally pissed off at much of the
humour I perceived in AA meetings. It seemed inappropriate to me.

The bottom line: just reading the damn Big Book achieved little more
than being able to quote stuff at other people.

Today, I can say that I feel comfortable with some sense of humility,
am able to make amends, and take some satisfaction out of working with
other alcoholics.

Doing what we want is easy, but clearly hasn't been sufficient to keep
us sober. Doing what we should but don't want is where willingness is
required, and that makes all the difference.

You don't have to like this stuff. You don't even have to agree with
it. But if you honestly do everything suggested, in the order it's
suggested, and don't experience the benefit of inner change as a
result, I'll have a drink. Yes, I am that convinced that it can work
for anyone, because I have absolutely no intention of drinking.

--
Blue Moon

[rockhound]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:02:45 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 16:11:51 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 15:32:05 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 09:28:18 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>If you bared all, or even part, to most people, human nature is such
>>>>that they will punt you all the way up the prison steps, or nuthouse,
>>>>and you will never get to step 9, the making of direct amends, and
>>>>inflow and outflow of peace.
>>>>
>>>>Be forewarned. Choose your dance partners carefully.
>>>
>>>Given that you've not even taken Step 3, why are you concerned about
>>>Step 5?
>>
>>I guess i should mention, i've gone through all 12 chapters before,
>>and still wound up in chapter 13, so i must have missed some fine
>>print.
>>
>>http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/11/ch13.html
>>
>>They say, the devil's in the details...
>>
>>Some of us want to be sure what we're getting ourselves into is not
>>just another sham rip-off.
>
>Understandable. My faith was rocked by such misplaced faith in stuff
>like booze or other people, so I also had plenty of doubts. At one
>point I didn't even have enough faith to get out of bed, let alone
>open any curtains, answer the 'phone, answer the door, wash, do
>laundry, etc. And this was whilst sober.

Appreciated. Nice to know i wasn't alone with my head in the oven.

>However, the problem here is that the decision over whether you're
>getting into just another sham rip-off is based on how you feel or
>what you believe today, rather than how you feel or what you believe
>as the result of having taken some of the actions. Each action brings
>about some change, which can prepare you for the next action. Simply
>reading it brings about little, if any, change at all.

>I had similar issues when I came in. For a start, I did NOT want any
>of that "God stuff". It was a huge turn-off for me.

Yep. Nothing makes me want to puke like the Jesus Loves U crowd
downtown, the wafers, the quakers, the hindus, the muslims, the
endless parade of sots.... There *has* to be something better than
that. No intention of becoming an absolutely full-blown froot loop.
Not really that desperate. But, then, what do i know. Some here
would say i already am one. I'd like to stay reasonable about faith,
if that's possible. Like, my few fliers into that realm already give
me pause to consider, how can we ever know if we're 'doing god's
will'? So, at a loss for any other good idea, i'm considering the
principles of recovery - surrender, confession, restitution, and
unselfish constructive action are probably some kind of very good
ideas. Still, though, lack of power...

I am hearing a qualification that we be okay if we're doing 'as we
believe' he would have us do...don't necessarily have to be right, and
can look for improvement, and work it out ourselves and in
consultation with others, and try to learn from the painful lessons of
yesterday, since if we don't learn from the past we're doomed to
repeat it.


>I did not "want what we have". However, I was willing to go to any
>lengths to quit feeling the way I did. My life was completely
>unmanageable *without* booze inside.
>
>So I did not like much of what I read when I started out - certainly
>not the idea of "humbly" doing anything at all, making amends (though
>I was slightly relieved it didn't say "apologise" because that really
>would have been an insult to my pride), or working with other
>alcoholics ("what do I get out of it?"). But I was willing to work
>through it anyway.

I see once we're willing to try to pray, we can pray till the
willingness comes. At most of it i balk.

>One question in my mind was, "am I alcoholic, or simply insane?" I
>didn't know the answer to that. It wasn't until I'd been sober for
>some months that it really began to dawn on me just how ill I really
>had become. In that respect, my alcoholism was quite shocking. As a
>result, for some time I was also royally pissed off at much of the
>humour I perceived in AA meetings. It seemed inappropriate to me.
>
>The bottom line: just reading the damn Big Book achieved little more
>than being able to quote stuff at other people.
>
>Today, I can say that I feel comfortable with some sense of humility,
>am able to make amends, and take some satisfaction out of working with
>other alcoholics.

Progress is enough to keep us sober huh. I probly fucked up on trying
to achieve the perfection part before. Dunno...sure some of it'll
come to me.


>Doing what we want is easy, but clearly hasn't been sufficient to keep
>us sober. Doing what we should but don't want is where willingness is
>required, and that makes all the difference.

I see once we're willing to try to pray, we can pray till the
willingness comes. The mere notion of having to answer the phone at
any time of the day or night makes me think...i'm not ready for this.
That would take me all the willpower i have...


>You don't have to like this stuff. You don't even have to agree with
>it. But if you honestly do everything suggested, in the order it's
>suggested, and don't experience the benefit of inner change as a
>result, I'll have a drink. Yes, I am that convinced that it can work
>for anyone, because I have absolutely no intention of drinking.

Then, you promise the moon, Blue :). If you've done it, you
couldn't drink if you wanted to. Says so in the book. If we're going
to take that on faith :)


---------
Logic was great stuff. We liked it. We still like it.

[rosie read and post]

:.......................... As a
: result, for some time I was also royally pissed off at much of the
: humour I perceived in AA meetings. It seemed inappropriate to me.
:
:

i remember feeling the same way about the cartoon's in the
GRAPEVINE!

[rockhound]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:38:36 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:


>I see once we're willing to try to pray, we can pray till the
>willingness comes. The mere notion of having to answer the phone at
>any time of the day or night makes me think...i'm not ready for this.
>That would take me all the willpower i have...

Also, i might have to give up cherished life ambitions like running
guns to south america, and another one was that some day, some how, i
will find a great shaman somewhere in south america that'll turn me on
to some good peyote, and another one was, i just want to roll around
and play with wild animals.

No African safari? Ever? What about Cuba?

So i'm still in negotiations with God.

He is already turning my pirate ship into a service station, and i'm
not sure i like that much.

I think we're having a tug-of-war.

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:38:36 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:

>I see once we're willing to try to pray, we can pray till the
>willingness comes. At most of it i balk.

Prayer isn't really prescribed until Step 11. It can be nice to. It
can even be helpful to. And alcoholics need to be perfect at nothing,
including prayer or meditation.

>Progress is enough to keep us sober huh. I probly fucked up on trying
>to achieve the perfection part before. Dunno...sure some of it'll
>come to me.

Those who seek perfection rather than progress tend to trip up over
their own perfectly-tied shoelaces.

>If you've done it, you
>couldn't drink if you wanted to. Says so in the book. If we're going
>to take that on faith :)

Where does the book say that?

--
Blue Moon

[rockhound]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 18:25:34 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 17:38:36 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>
>>I see once we're willing to try to pray, we can pray till the
>>willingness comes. At most of it i balk.
>
>Prayer isn't really prescribed until Step 11. It can be nice to. It
>can even be helpful to. And alcoholics need to be perfect at nothing,
>including prayer or meditation.
>
>>Progress is enough to keep us sober huh. I probly fucked up on trying
>>to achieve the perfection part before. Dunno...sure some of it'll
>>come to me.
>
>Those who seek perfection rather than progress tend to trip up over
>their own perfectly-tied shoelaces.
>
>>If you've done it, you
>>couldn't drink if you wanted to. Says so in the book. If we're going
>>to take that on faith :)
>
>Where does the book say that?

Step 10. Sorry i don't read everything you write - where r u at with
it all?

[Blue Moon]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:03:46 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:

>>>If you've done it, you
>>>couldn't drink if you wanted to. Says so in the book. If we're going
>>>to take that on faith :)
>>
>>Where does the book say that?
>
>Step 10.

Step 10 doesn't say anything about not being able to drink even if you
want to.

I have no desire to drink, and I have no perceived need to drink. If
I wanted to drink, I have a choice today whether or not to do so. I
didn't always have that choice. There was a time when I drank even
when I really didn't want to. I recovered from that condition.

> Sorry i don't read everything you write - where r u at with
>it all?

I've worked the Steps, am sober, am reasonably active with AA
fellowship, and don't anticipate any return to drinking. I "refresh"
Steps 1, 3 and 12 each day, in different ways.

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

Blue Moon wrote:
>
> Today, I can say that I feel comfortable with some sense
of humility,
> am able to make amends, and take some satisfaction out of
working with
> other alcoholics.
>

Jeez, Blue.

Interesting to see you're adequately "comfortable" with your
humility, instead of simply being proud of it;-) Seems
you're getting to be left behind with she who shall remain
nameless, stuck in the language of the forked tongue.

Could it be that "working with other alcoholics" ' can be a
*real* trap without the attitude gleaned from page 60
http://tinyurl.com/yrum3 the only one that one can really
help, is oneself?

Perhaps all that "oneness" is very important, lest one lapse
into AAspeak, and by doing what Bill did, one gets what Bill
got. "


' "I was always glad to think that I was included in those
(Dr Bob's) prayers," said Bill (Wilson) "And I sort of
depended on him to get me into heaven. Bob was far ahead of
me in that sort of activity. I was always rushing around
talking and organising and 'teaching kindergarten' I never
grew up myself." ..... Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers, p
315.

" "Bill's depressions* lasted for roughly 11 years in all,
until 1955, when he was finally freed of them." ..... AA
Grapevine, January 1958.

*Pertinent depressions, being those subsequent to Bill's
notarious "Spiritual awakening."

Bob

[rockhound]

On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:00:13 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:03:46 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>
>>>>If you've done it, you
>>>>couldn't drink if you wanted to. Says so in the book. If we're going
>>>>to take that on faith :)
>>>
>>>Where does the book say that?
>>
>>Step 10.
>
>Step 10 doesn't say anything about not being able to drink even if you
>want to.

Can you make yourself lay your hand on a red hot burner, too?

[Blue Moon]

On Mon, 31 May 2004 09:51:21 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 30 May 2004 20:00:13 GMT, Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 30 May 2004 19:03:46 GMT, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>>
>>>>>If you've done it, you
>>>>>couldn't drink if you wanted to. Says so in the book. If we're going
>>>>>to take that on faith :)
>>>>
>>>>Where does the book say that?
>>>
>>>Step 10.
>>
>>Step 10 doesn't say anything about not being able to drink even if you
>>want to.
>
>Can you make yourself lay your hand on a red hot burner, too?

If I really wanted to. The point is that I don't, have no intention
of doing so, and perceive no need to do so.

--
Blue Moon