Re: CULT

[Agent_Orange]

Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<fbb39bd76da697eb41767b93d90c72e2@free.teranews.com >...

>
> I've seen plenty of miracles, and in some ways I am one. It's easy
> for me to not see something when my eyes are shut.

Agreed that recovery is wonderful, but isn't
calling it a "miracle" stretching it a bit?

A miracle is when somebody uses supernatural powers
to change physical reality. Can you show that any
such supernatural powers were used? And by whom?

Can you prove that it wasn't just cases of people
quitting drinking because they were sick and tired
of being sick and tired?

* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <8e728989.0307091037.633be2db@posting.google.com>,
Agent_Orange <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> writes
>Can you prove that it wasn't just cases of people quitting drinking
>because they were sick and tired of being sick and tired?

Quite. I just got sick of being out of control and not enjoying my life.
Now I wonder why I ever did it.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Agent_Orange]

Jonathan Bratt <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message news:<mt32YcApWJD$EwLT@aol.com>...
> In message <8e728989.0307091037.633be2db@posting.google.com>,
> Agent_Orange <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> writes
> >Can you prove that it wasn't just cases of people quitting drinking
> >because they were sick and tired of being sick and tired?
>
> Quite. I just got sick of being out of control and not enjoying my life.
> Now I wonder why I ever did it.

Me too. Although I know a few of the reasons:

1) Believing that I was powerless over alcohol and tobacco.
"No sense in quitting, I'll just start back up again."

2) Believing that it would make me feel better. That's the
real essence of addiction: "This stuff is killing me.
I feel awful. I've got to stop doing it. But let me do
a little more right now so I can feel better."

3) Believing that I *should* be able to do it. "Other
people can drink and smoke and I don't see it killing
them, so I should be able to do it too." That is,
of course, bad logic. But it sounded good at the time,
especially after several beers... :-)

I thank God that I'm sober and smoke-free now, but I don't
abuse the word "miracle" by declaring that it's a miracle
that I'm clean and sober now. It ended up just being
good old-fashioned common sense. I just got sick and tired
of being sick and tired, and decided that I really didn't
want to die that way.

Have a good day.


* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <8e728989.0307101645.7221edd4@posting.google.com>,
Agent_Orange <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> writes
> It ended up just being good old-fashioned common sense.

Quite. While the concept of a higher power may be very valuable for
some, and I would not denigrate it in that sense, it is by no means
essential for everyone.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Totfit]

I agree that the concept of a higher power is not essential for quitting
drinking. There are many that are able to quit without a higher
power or group. I have proven myself not to be in either category. While
my concept of a higher power or God is personal, I thing that all could
agree that we are not the most powerful. There are many powers greater
than ourselves that if we can accept can be beneficial, but if we
believe that the world revolves around us can be sorely disappointed and
this disappointment and fighting can be hazardous to peace of mind. I
for one believe that the many ideas expressed even on this list to be a
power greater than my mind and can do things to help me sort things out
when I might possibly be confused. Any group can be a power greater than
myself, but I also have to be in charge of sorting the bullshit. While I
do believe in a power greater than myself, I also believe that I am
responsible and in charge of my own recovery, but my chances of success
are much greater with an open mind.

Gregg

Jonathan Bratt wrote:
> In message <8e728989.0307101645.7221edd4@posting.google.com>,
> Agent_Orange <agent_orange@linuxmail.org> writes
>
>> It ended up just being good old-fashioned common sense.
>
>
> Quite. While the concept of a higher power may be very valuable for
> some, and I would not denigrate it in that sense, it is by no means
> essential for everyone.

[Agent_Orange]

Totfit <gregg_fowler@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<OmmdnWJiEdI8NpOiU-KYvw@comcast.com>...
While I
> do believe in a power greater than myself, I also believe that I am
> responsible and in charge of my own recovery, but my chances of success
> are much greater with an open mind.
>

Honestly, what is that supposed to mean? Stay gullible?
When Bill Wilson used that phrase, what he really meant was
that you had to be willing to convert to his Buchmanite
religious beliefs.

Keeping an open mind is a virtue,
but not so open that your brains fall out.
-- James Oberg

* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

[Blue Moon]

On 9 Jul 2003 11:37:10 -0700, agent_orange@linuxmail.org
(Agent_Orange) wrote:

>Blue Moon <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<fbb39bd76da697eb41767b93d90c72e2@free.teranews.com >...
>
>> I've seen plenty of miracles, and in some ways I am one. It's easy
>> for me to not see something when my eyes are shut.
>
>Agreed that recovery is wonderful, but isn't
>calling it a "miracle" stretching it a bit?
>
>A miracle is when somebody uses supernatural powers
>to change physical reality. Can you show that any
>such supernatural powers were used? And by whom?

Not sure what dictionary you use, but Websters describes "miracle" as:

1. A wonder or wonderful thing.

2. Specifically: An event or effect contrary to the established
constitution and course of things, or a deviation from the known laws
of nature; a supernatural event, or one transcending the ordinary laws
by which the universe is governed.

Given that the ordinary laws by which my universe was governed was to
get rat-faced on a regular basis and be demonstrably incapable of
living life for long without booze despite what it eventually did TO
me, I'd say "miracle" is a fairly apt description of the effect the
Steps had on my life.

>Can you prove that it wasn't just cases of people
>quitting drinking because they were sick and tired
>of being sick and tired?

Sure. The book "Alcoholics Anonymous" cites plenty of such cases in
chapters 1 thru 3 (and plenty of stories at the back showing similar
evidence). "Sick and tired" is a transitory condition, an easily
forgotten pain, which I understand is why so many women are crazy
enough to endure more than one childbirth :)

--
Blue Moon