Great Phrase

[Jonathan Bratt]

In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.

I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without making
other changes - 'sober but sombre'.

I like it!
--
Jonathan Bratt

[JB]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Cz8fviSddTlAFwA3@aol.com...
> In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.
>
> I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
> before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without
making
> other changes - 'sober but sombre'.
>
> I like it!
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

I thought the phrase "dry drunk" implies that the thinking, attitudes
and behaviour of alcoholics for example who no longer drink is
exactly the same as they were when they were drinking. In other
words, all they've done is "put the plug in the jug".

JB

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <c73e9p$p2g$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:Cz8fviSddTlAFwA3@aol.com...
>> In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.
>>
>> I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
>> before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without
>making
>> other changes - 'sober but sombre'.
>>
>> I like it!
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>I thought the phrase "dry drunk" implies that the thinking, attitudes
>and behaviour of alcoholics for example who no longer drink is
>exactly the same as they were when they were drinking. In other
>words, all they've done is "put the plug in the jug".

Yup - all means the same. Where cessation of drinking has been the only
change made.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[George &The Dragon]

I've never understood this phrase.

Anytime I've heard it, it's been directed at someone who is sober but isn't
liked!

George


& the Dragon

[rosie]

....
: I've never understood this phrase.
:
: Anytime I've heard it, it's been directed at someone who is sober
but isn't
: liked!
:
: George
:
:
: & the Dragon
:
:

its directed a folks who are DRY vs. sober.

[rosie]

'sober but sombre'.
:
: I like it!
: --
: Jonathan Bratt


oh, i do too!

--
rosie

"You know the world is gone crazy when the best rapper is a white
guy,
the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is
Chinese,the
Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the U.S. of
arrogance,
Germany does not want to go to war, and the three most powerful men
in
America are named 'Bush', 'Dick', and 'Colon'."
.................................................. .............Chris
Rock
:)









"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Cz8fviSddTlAFwA3@aol.com...
: In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.
:
: I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
: before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without
making
: other changes - 'sober but sombre'.
:
: I like it!
: --
: Jonathan Bratt

[George &The Dragon]

Well, lets take the president of the United States as an example - a heavy
drinker who decided on his 40th birthday to quit and did exactly that. I've
seen many descriptions of him as a "dry drunk" on alcoholism forums. But the
claim always seems to be made by people who are on the opposite side of his
political philosophy.

What would make him a "dry drunk" and everyone else on this forum a
"successful recovering alcoholic?"

George


& the Dragon

[JB]

"George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message
news:rqclc.10016$3Q4.128118@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> I've never understood this phrase.
>
> Anytime I've heard it, it's been directed at someone who is sober
but isn't
> liked!
>
> George
>
>
> & the Dragon

George,

Your comment led to me deciding to search the internet for info on the
term dry drunk ;^)

From: http://www.lakeweb1.com/mrp/literature/drydrunk.htm

"The Dry Drunk is a condition far more serious than the highs and lows
of our day-to-day existence.

The phrase "dry drunk" has two significant words for the alcoholic.
"Dry" refers to the abstinence from drinking, whereas "drunk"
signifies a deeply pathological condition resulting from the use of
alcohol in the past. Taken together these words suggest intoxication
without alcohol. Since intoxication comes from the Greek word for
poison, "dry drunk" implies a state of mind and a mode of behavior
that are poisonous to the alcoholic's well being.

OBVIOUS TRAITS Persons experiencing a full-blown DRY DRUNK are, for
that period, removed from the world of sobriety; they fail, for
whatever reason, to accept the necessary conditions for sober living.
Their mental and emotional homes are chaotic, their approach to
everyday living is unrealistic, and their behavior, both verbal and
physical, is unacceptable.

This lack of sober realism manifests itself in many ways.

1. Grandiosity, put very simply, is an exaggeration of one's own
importance. This can be demonstrated either in terms of one's
strengths or weaknesses. In either case it is blatantly self- seeking
or self-serving, putting oneself at the center of attention, from the
"big me" who has ask the answers to the "poor me" whose cup of
self-pity runneth over and wants all of our attention.

2. Judgmentalism is mutually related to grandiosity. It means that the
alcoholic is prone to make value judgments - strikingly inappropriate
evaluations - usually in terms of "goodness" or "badness".

3. Intolerance leaves no room for delaying the gratification of
personal desires. This is accomplished by gross confusion of
priorities with the result that a mere whim or passing fancy is
mistakenly given more importance than genuine personal needs.

4. Impulsivity is the result of intolerance or the lack of ability to
delay gratification of personal desires. Impulsivity describes
behavior which is heedless of the ultimate consequence for self or
others.

5. Indecisiveness is related to impulsitivity in the sense that while
the latter takes no realistic account of the consequences of the
actions, the former precludes effective action altogether.
Indecisiveness stems from an unrealistic exaggeration of the negative
possibilities of the action ; so one wavers between two or more
possible courses of action, more times than not- nothing gets done.

These conditions, grandiosity, judgmentalism, intolerance
,impulsivity, and indecisiveness taken separately or together can lead
to the following: a) Mood swings, which are unrelated to the
circumstances to which one tries to link them. Alcoholics zero in on
what they want others to think is the cause of the mood swing, when it
isn't that at all. More often than not it is something much deeper
than the reason given. Inversely it can also be something totally
insignificant with no substance at all (e.g. the sugar is too sweet or
the donut is too round). Any excuse will do. b) Unable to demonstrate
emotions freely, naturally and without constraint. No emotional
spontaneity, no genuine spark. c) Introspection. A very healthy thing
to do is difficult if not impossible for the "dry drunk". It means to
look inward to one's examining each thought and desire, which is
linked directly to one's attitude. d) Detachment. Become aloof,
display indifference, don't care one way or the other, no special
likes or dislikes, they withdraw. e) Self-absorption- with a tendency
to call attention to whatever they have attained. Narcissism which is
quite simply self-love. They become pompous asses. f) The inability to
appreciate or enjoy themselves - nothing satisfies. g) Evidence of
disorganization, is easily distracted, complains of boredom, and
nothing seems to fit. h) A nostalgia sets in, a kind of wistful
yearning for something of the past, such as freedom from care
associated (falsely) with drinking, bars, drinking associates, and
friends; the music, blue lights, and tinkle of the ice cubes in a
glass in the neighborhood saloon. i) There can be a kind of
romanticism, which includes unrealistic valuations of lifestyles and
character traits which can be and usually are objectively dangerous to
one's sobriety. j) Escapism. Fantasizing, daydreaming, and wishful
thinking are very much in evidence in the dry drunk syndrome as the
individual slips farther and farther from reality.

Since the abnormality of the alcoholic's attitudes and behavior during
the drinking career is generally recognized, the persistence or these
character traits after stopping drinking (or the reappearance after an
interlude of sobriety) is equally abnormal.

The term "dry drunk" therefore denotes the absences of favorable
change in the attitudes and behavior of the alcoholic who is not
drinking, or the reversion of these by the alcoholic who has
experienced a period of successful sobriety. From these conditions, it
is to be inferred that the alcoholic is experiencing discomfort in
life.

The self-destructive attitudes and behavior of the dry drunk alcoholic
are different in degree but not in kind. The alcoholic, when drinking,
has learned to rely on a deeply inadequate, radically immature
approach to solving life's problems. And this is exactly what one sees
in the dry drunk.

ANALYSIS OF DRY DRUNK BEHAVIOR The alcoholic who rationalizes their
own irresponsible behavior are also likely to find fault in the
attitudes and behavior of others. Although not denying their own
shortcomings, they attempt to escape notice by cataloging in great
detail the transgressions of others.

The classic maneuver of the dry drunk is over-reaction. The alcoholic
may attach a seemingly disproportionate intensity of feeling to an
ordinary insignificant event or mishap.

Some alcoholics who experience the dry drunk seem to know all the
answers, are seldom at a loss for words when it comes to
self-diagnosis. Their knowledge is quite impressive, their apparent
insight, as opposed to genuine insight, is convincing.

CORRECTIVE MEASURES: Those undergoing a dry drunk lead impoverished
lives. They experience severe limitations to grow,, to mature, and
benefit from the possibilities that life offers. They lack the
freshness and spontaneity that genuinely sober alcoholics manifest.
Their life is a closed system, attitudes and behaviors are
stereotyped, repetitive, and consequently predictable.

Alcoholics learn early that humility and a power greater than them-
selves are the bedrock for a genuine and productive sobriety. An
unusual measure of self-discipline must accompany the ego deflation
process. Needed is self-discipline in honesty, patience and
responsibility towards the recovery process [and acceptance of their
disease]. [To improve long term goals of sobriety be aware of mental
stressers, get more involved in the recovery program, get active in
the 12 steps, get and use a sponsor, talk things out.] Hopefully. they
will begin to appreciate the ironic folly of those alcoholics who
think life has suddenly become manageable again; whose sanity is
beyond question; who see no need of turning their lives over to a
power greater then them- selves; who find personal inventories
unnecessary since they are seldom in the wrong and are no longer
subject to the embarrassing need of repairing the wrongs they have
done.

When dry drunk alcoholics awaken to this irony that they, still
unmanageable, still powerless, are the ones who have made this
remarkable "recovery," they may feel sufficiently mortified to want to
change.

[JB]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c73spt$4mp$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

Here's a simpler definition:

Ref:: http://www.kenpeterscenter.com/drydrunk.htm

DRY DRUNK

"Dry" simply refers to the fact that there is abstinence, while
"drunk" signifies a deeply pathological condition resulting from the
use of alcohol in the past.

"Dry drunk" is a term describing the state of the alcoholic who is
uncomfortable when he is not drinking. The "dry drunk syndrome" is a
group of symptoms that occur together and constitute an abnormality.
Since the abnormality of the alcoholic's attitudes and behavior during
his drinking career is generally recognized, the persistence of these
traits after the alcoholic stops drinking might seem equally abnormal.
Therefore, the term "dry-drunk" alludes to the absence of favorable
change in the attitudes and behavior of the alcoholic who is not
drinking.

"Dry Drunk" Traits:

* Grandiose behavior
* Pomposity
* Exaggerated self-importance
* A rigidly judgmental outlook
* Impatience
* Childish behavior
* Irresponsible behavior
* Irrational rationalization
* Projection
* Overreaction

[George &The Dragon]

Hi JB

Hope you're doing ok these days.

Thanks for the link. When I look at the characteristics listed on the web
page I see a lot of traits that are present in people who don't necessarily
have alcoholism (Donald Trump, Margaret Thatcher, Charles de Gaulle, Don
Cherry, only Canadians will recognise this one). All grandiose, somewhat
intolerant people.

It's a "chicken and egg" situation. Are these characteristics a result of
alcoholism or were these characteristics present before the alcoholism
appeared, and are now apparent because the person has stopped drinking?

As I mentioned before, I notice this phrase being used a lot by recovering
alcoholics about people they just don't particularly like. As such, I think
it tends to be a hindrance to recovery rather than a help.

Aye,
George



& the Dragon

[Ron]

On Sun, 2 May 2004 23:38:38 +0100, JB <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

> OBVIOUS TRAITS Persons experiencing a full-blown DRY DRUNK are, for
> that period, removed from the world of sobriety; they fail, for
> whatever reason, to accept the necessary conditions for sober living.
> Their mental and emotional homes are chaotic, their approach to
> everyday living is unrealistic, and their behavior, both verbal and
> physical, is unacceptable.

I think some people are just assholes, whether they drink or not; and
conversely, a lot of people drink too much, whether or not they are
assholes. 'Dry drunk' just sounds like psychobabble to me. Then again,
most things just sound like psychobabble to me.

--
AB5DB9CC

[JB]

"George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message
news:M6flc.12457$3Q4.179186@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> Hi JB
>
> Hope you're doing ok these days.

Thank you for asking. I believe that I'm coping far better with life
than I used to.
>
> Thanks for the link. When I look at the characteristics listed on
the web
> page I see a lot of traits that are present in people who don't
necessarily
> have alcoholism (Donald Trump, Margaret Thatcher, Charles de Gaulle,
Don
> Cherry, only Canadians will recognise this one). All grandiose,
somewhat
> intolerant people.
>
> It's a "chicken and egg" situation. Are these characteristics a
result of
> alcoholism or were these characteristics present before the
alcoholism
> appeared, and are now apparent because the person has stopped
drinking?

Maybe those who work AA's 12 Step programme will discover the answer
while working Steps 4, 5, 6 , 7 and 10.
>
> As I mentioned before, I notice this phrase being used a lot by
recovering
> alcoholics about people they just don't particularly like. As such,
I think
> it tends to be a hindrance to recovery rather than a help.

In what sense ? I think that when alcoholics focus their attention
on others shortcomings whilst failing to look within themselves to
uncover their own shortcomings and subsequently doing something about
them, they aren't doing what they ought to be doing if they themselves
want to make progress in recovery.

JB

[rett]

"George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message news:<rqclc.10016$3Q4.128118@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> I've never understood this phrase.
>
> Anytime I've heard it, it's been directed at someone who is sober but isn't
> liked!
>
> George
>
>
> & the Dragon

The term "dry drunk" refers to one who has stopped drinking...but the
"isms" are still very much there...the behaviours have NOT changed.
Rett

[Ron]

On Sun, 2 May 2004 18:36:09 -0400, George &The Dragon <george@dragon.ca>
wrote:

> Well, lets take the president of the United States as an example - a
> heavy drinker who decided on his 40th birthday to quit and did exactly
> that. I've seen many descriptions of him as a "dry drunk" on
> alcoholism forums. But the claim always seems to be made by people who
> are on the opposite side of his political philosophy.
>
> What would make him a "dry drunk" and everyone else on this forum a
> "successful recovering alcoholic?"

That's a good point. Calling the shrub a 'dry drunk' is inappropriate.
An appropriate way to refer to our sitting president is 'self-righteous
ignorant tool of privilege'. If he supervised a small Eastern European
nation rather than a superpower he might deserve a special room at the
Hague.

--
AB5DB9CC

[John Droge]

"rett" <rett49@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ac589f3e.0405021815.22315e13@posting.google.c om...
> "George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message
news:<rqclc.10016$3Q4.128118@news20.bellglobal.com>...
> > I've never understood this phrase.
> >
> > Anytime I've heard it, it's been directed at someone who is sober but
isn't
> > liked!
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> > & the Dragon
>
> The term "dry drunk" refers to one who has stopped drinking...but the
> "isms" are still very much there...the behaviours have NOT changed.
> Rett
And other then being physically not inebriated they have not gained any of
the benefits of quitting booze only gone through the trials and
tribulations.
Somber but sober is a most excellent description.
It is often used as a derogatory term and dry drunks should be helped and
not put down, but (in my own case at least) all the character flaws of
people who use the term also still need help.
John

[John Droge]

"George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message
news:M6flc.12457$3Q4.179186@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
I see a lot of traits that are present in people who don't necessarily
> have alcoholism (Donald Trump, Margaret Thatcher, Charles de Gaulle, Don
> Cherry, only Canadians will recognise this one). All grandiose, somewhat
> intolerant people.

> Aye,
> George
> & the Dragon
Don Cherry used to coach in Denver some years ago and I think you are being
more then gracious by saying "..somewhat..".
John

[John Droge]

"Ron" <can@the.spam> wrote in message
news:Cvilc.13261$Ia6.1797288@attbi_s03...
> On Sun, 2 May 2004 18:36:09 -0400, George &The Dragon <george@dragon.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Well, lets take the president of the United States as an example - a
> > heavy drinker who decided on his 40th birthday to quit and did exactly
> > that. I've seen many descriptions of him as a "dry drunk" on
> > alcoholism forums. But the claim always seems to be made by people who
> > are on the opposite side of his political philosophy.
> >
> > What would make him a "dry drunk" and everyone else on this forum a
> > "successful recovering alcoholic?"
>
> That's a good point. Calling the shrub a 'dry drunk' is inappropriate.
> An appropriate way to refer to our sitting president is 'self-righteous
> ignorant tool of privilege'. If he supervised a small Eastern European
> nation rather than a superpower he might deserve a special room at the
> Hague.
>
> --
> AB5DB9CC
Hey AB5DB9CC give the East Europeans a break, they just got rid of the
commies and now they're gonna have to suffer through the EU why wish Dubba
on them.
John

[Mias]

"George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message
news:vJelc.12191$3Q4.174210@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> What would make him a "dry drunk" and everyone else on this forum a
> "successful recovering alcoholic?"
Hey - when is the last time we invaded the 'alt.wine.is.glorious' newsgroup
(Just because they sometimes disagree with us) Hey! I say man...

[Kirk S.]

Hi all,

I know that when I start becoming more concerned with whether or not someone
else is a "dry drunk", it means that I am distracting myself from the real
problem: ME.

I believe all the negative traits listed existed in me before I started
drinking. I simply used alcohol to try to hide. As the old saying goes,
you can't hide from yourself...

Instead of placing labels on people, how about giving them credit for making
an attempt at change? At least they aren't drinking and for me, that was
necessary for me to move forwards.

Does it really matter what "we" think? I know I've spent my whole life
worrying about what others think of me. Isn't this just switching places
and doing the same thing?

Kirk S.
"Mias" <emiasdont@spamnetactive.co.za> wrote in message
news:40962792.0@news1.mweb.co.za...
>
> "George &The Dragon" <george@dragon.ca> wrote in message
> news:vJelc.12191$3Q4.174210@news20.bellglobal.com. ..
> > What would make him a "dry drunk" and everyone else on this forum a
> > "successful recovering alcoholic?"
> Hey - when is the last time we invaded the 'alt.wine.is.glorious'
newsgroup
> (Just because they sometimes disagree with us) Hey! I say man...
>
>

[rosie]

: Does it really matter what "we" think? I know I've spent my whole
life
: worrying about what others think of me. Isn't this just switching
places
: and doing the same thing?
:
: Kirk S.
:


kirk,
the only time i think it IS important "what i think", is when i am
looking for role models, which i do on a continuous basis, as part
of an active eleventh step.

rosie

[JB]

"rosie" <sorry@toomanyweirdo's.com> wrote in message
news:BCslc.15030$u_4.2360@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> : Does it really matter what "we" think? I know I've spent my whole
> life
> : worrying about what others think of me. Isn't this just switching
> places
> : and doing the same thing?
> :
> : Kirk S.
> :
>
>
> kirk,
> the only time i think it IS important "what i think", is when i am
> looking for role models, which i do on a continuous basis, as part
> of an active eleventh step.
>
> rosie

I don't understand how looking for role models fits into Step 11.
Could you please explain ?

"Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our
conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for
knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we
resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology? Have we
kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another
person at once? Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have
done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were
we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into
the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry,
remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness
to others. After making our review we ask God's forgiveness and
inquire what corrective measures should be taken.

On awakening let us think about the twenty-four hours ahead. We
consider our plans for the day. Before we begin, we ask God to direct
our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity,
dishonest or self-seeking motives. Under these conditions we can
employ our mental faculties with assurance, for after all God gave us
brains to use. Our thought- life will be placed on a much higher plane
when our thinking is cleared of wrong motives.

In thinking about our day we may face indecision. We may not be able
to determine which course to take. Here we ask God for inspiration, an
intuitive thought or a decision. We relax and take it easy. We don't
struggle. We are often surprised how the right answers come after we
have tried this for a while. What used to be the hunch or the
occasional inspiration gradually becomes a working part of the mind.
Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with
God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times.
We might pay for this presumption in all sorts of absurd actions and
ideas. Nevertheless, we find that our thinking will, as time passes,
be more and more on the plane of inspiration. We come to rely upon it.

We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be
shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be
given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask
especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no
request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if
others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own
selfish ends. Many of us have wasted a lot of time doing that and it
doesn't work. You can easily see why.

As we go through the day we pause, when agitated or doubtful, and ask
for the right thought or action. We constantly remind ourselves we are
no longer running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each
day "Thy will be done." We are then in much less danger of excitement,
fear, anger, worry, self-pity, or foolish decisions. We become much
more efficient. We do not tire so easily, for we are not burning up
energy foolishly as we did when we were trying to arrange life to suit
ourselves"

(Ref: Alcoholics Anonyomous, Chapters 5 and 6).

JB

[rosie]

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c75mu3$khu$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

:
: I don't understand how looking for role models fits into Step 11.
: Could you please explain ?
:
:


:.........................."After making our review we ask God's
forgiveness and
: inquire what corrective measures should be taken."


HP speaks to me through other people (people that i respect, people
who "walk the walk" not just talk it)...............i was taught and
believe that part of recovery is one alcoholic talking to
another..............................definitely NOT rosie talking to
rosie.
(that is an "active" part of my continuing to improve my conscious
contact.)

[Melia Tomas]

Dry Drunk
(a.k.a. Dry Bender): A condition of returning to one's old alcoholic
thinking and behavior without actually having taken a drink.

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c73e9p$p2g$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:Cz8fviSddTlAFwA3@aol.com...
> > In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.
> >
> > I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
> > before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without
> making
> > other changes - 'sober but sombre'.
> >
> > I like it!
> > --
> > Jonathan Bratt
>
> I thought the phrase "dry drunk" implies that the thinking, attitudes
> and behaviour of alcoholics for example who no longer drink is
> exactly the same as they were when they were drinking. In other
> words, all they've done is "put the plug in the jug".
>
> JB
>
>
>

[rockhound]

On Mon, 3 May 2004 16:10:53 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>I don't understand how looking for role models fits into Step 11.
>Could you please explain ?
>
>"Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our
>conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for
>knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

My own understanding of this entails such meditative activities as
trying to grok the significance of, for example, the famous St Francis
prayer = 'resting quietly with the thoughts of one who knows'. If we
wish to grow in the likeness and image of
he-who-we-may-be-increasingly-able-to-understand, sometimes our reach
must exceed our grasp.

I like that piece in particular because Frankie was a party animal and
a drunken bum of his own accord, the recipient of a vital spiritual
awakening long before any AA book was ever written. But i can never
remember more than the first two or three lines.

But any role model who appears to have a rudimentary working faith to
me will do, and when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

I find there are ample 'role models' of right thinking when you look
for them. How we can use such thoughts to guide our own stumbling
towards right thinking and action, thus right living in general,
becomes the meditation.

Here i found a nice little article on him:
http://www.sahajmarg.org/youth/story59.html

[JB]

"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:e6aab44fa3bd85918fe2aa42b559db5f@news.teranew s.com...
> I find there are ample 'role models' of right thinking when you look
> for them. How we can use such thoughts to guide our own stumbling
> towards right thinking and action, thus right living in general,
> becomes the meditation.

I don't understand what you mean by "right thinking and action and
right living". The word "right" has many meanings including::

1. in accordance with accepted standards of moral or legal behaviour,
2. in accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct or true: the
right answer.
3. appropriate, suitable, fitting, or proper:
4. most favourable or convenient; preferred:
5. correct in opinion or judgment.
6. sound in mind or body; healthy or sane.

Could you explain what you mean ?

JB

[Melia Tomas]

"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:e6aab44fa3bd85918fe2aa42b559db5f@news.teranew s.com...
> On Mon, 3 May 2004 16:10:53 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't understand how looking for role models fits into Step 11.Could
you please explain ?
> >
> >"Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious
contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His
will for us and the power to carry that out.

> My own understanding of this entails such meditative activities as trying
to grok the significance of, for example, the famous St Francis prayer =
'resting quietly with the thoughts of one who knows'. If we wish to grow
in the likeness and image of
> he-who-we-may-be-increasingly-able-to-understand, sometimes our reach must
exceed our grasp.
>
> I like that piece in particular because Frankie was a party animal and a
drunken bum of his own accord, the recipient of a vital spiritual awakening
long before any AA book was ever written.

Bill W had his "vital spiritual awakening" long before the book of AA was
ever written too.


<snip>

> But any role model who appears to have a rudimentary working faith to me
will do, and when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

"a working faith"...
Faith is nothing more than the belief. Belief in something that one's not
able to actually see visually with their eyes. And anyone and everyone
becomes more aware of how this thing we call faith can and is a very
powerful tool for everyday living that's been given us. However, in order
for that faith to become powerful, one does have to work it.

We humans (imo) seem to have this hungering constantly going on within us to
*always* want to have what seems to be making someone else happy,
And we always have the tendacy to think that the grass is always greener on
the other side.
But.... as we all come to know, in growing in faith and trying to work with
it, 9 out of 10 times the grass is not greener on the other side.

We must very carefully choose our role models indeed, however, some of them
that we do choose in life end up not really being a role model at all, no
matter how much we try to make them one.(imo)
Melia
[thanks for reading my sharing]


> I find there are ample 'role models' of right thinking when you look for
them. How we can use such thoughts to guide our own stumbling towards right
thinking and action, thus right living in general,
> becomes the meditation.
>
> Here i found a nice little article on him:
> http://www.sahajmarg.org/youth/story59.html

[rockhound]

On Tue, 4 May 2004 06:50:02 -0400, "Melia Tomas"
<leetomas@comcast.net> wrote:
>And we always have the tendacy to think that the grass is always greener on
>the other side.
>But.... as we all come to know, in growing in faith and trying to work with
>it, 9 out of 10 times the grass is not greener on the other side.


Well then I'm gonna quit peeking over your fence, Melia.


>We must very carefully choose our role models indeed, however, some of them
>that we do choose in life end up not really being a role model at all, no
>matter how much we try to make them one.(imo)
>Melia
>[thanks for reading my sharing]

thanks for sharing

[Melia Tomas]

"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
news:36151889489de13be3e6b9d229cec9ea@news.teranew s.com...
> On Tue, 4 May 2004 06:50:02 -0400, "Melia Tomas"
> <leetomas@comcast.net> wrote:
> >And we always have the tendacy to think that the grass is always greener
on
> >the other side.
> >But.... as we all come to know, in growing in faith and trying to work
with
> >it, 9 out of 10 times the grass is not greener on the other side.
>
>
> Well then I'm gonna quit peeking over your fence, Melia.
>
Good for you! Besides, nothing but weeds over here anyways...
I keep plucking and pulling at 'em and they keep popping back up.
It's one way to keep "a work" in progress though.
Melia
;-)
> >We must very carefully choose our role models indeed, however, some of
them
> >that we do choose in life end up not really being a role model at all, no
> >matter how much we try to make them one.(imo)
> >Melia
> >[thanks for reading my sharing]
>
> thanks for sharing

[Bill]

I just ordered a copy of this book from Amazon. Thanks for the tip, John.



"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Cz8fviSddTlAFwA3@aol.com...
> In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.
>
> I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
> before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without making
> other changes - 'sober but sombre'.
>
> I like it!
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

[Bill]

Correction: I ordered 'The Tao of Recovery'.


"Bill" <nospam@cox.net> wrote in message
news:KR8mc.27950$6L3.22564@fed1read05...
> I just ordered a copy of this book from Amazon. Thanks for the tip, John.
>
>
>
> "Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:Cz8fviSddTlAFwA3@aol.com...
> > In my 'Tao of Addiction ' book.
> >
> > I guess it is similar to the 'dry drunk' phrase I have come across
> > before: i.e. someone who has managed to give up drinking without making
> > other changes - 'sober but sombre'.
> >
> > I like it!
> > --
> > Jonathan Bratt
>
>

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <_T8mc.27951$6L3.27150@fed1read05>, Bill <nospam@cox.net>
writes
>Correction: I ordered 'The Tao of Recovery'.

Sure many of the principles are the same. 5 chapters in and it's making
a lotta sense to me - the first time any 'recovery literature' has
really done so.

Whatever works....
--
Jonathan Bratt

[rockhound]

On Tue, 4 May 2004 10:29:39 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>
>"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
>news:e6aab44fa3bd85918fe2aa42b559db5f@news.teranew s.com...
>> I find there are ample 'role models' of right thinking when you look
>> for them. How we can use such thoughts to guide our own stumbling
>> towards right thinking and action, thus right living in general,
>> becomes the meditation.
>
>I don't understand what you mean by "right thinking and action and
>right living". The word "right" has many meanings including::
>
>1. in accordance with accepted standards of moral or legal behaviour,
>2. in accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct or true: the
>right answer.
>3. appropriate, suitable, fitting, or proper:
>4. most favourable or convenient; preferred:
>5. correct in opinion or judgment.
>6. sound in mind or body; healthy or sane.
>
>Could you explain what you mean ?
>
>JB

Not wrong, is my best guess. Something about choosing character over
comfort. Stealing instead of working, for example. Doing unto others
as they have...whatever...however that goes. You know, what they
tried to teach us in kindergarten. Here's my recentest meditation -
'learning how to spot, admit, and correct bad motives is the essence
of daily living' or character building or something like that.

Bad motives, to my understanding, being the selfish ones. Good
motives, logically following, being the unselfish ones. Action based
on these. Sorry, words fail me. Cluttered mind. Ask me after I
overtake you in your progress.

[neuro equipoise]

On - Wed, May 5, 2004, 8:43pm
helo@null.com (rockhound) wrote:

> Here's my recentest meditation - 'learning how to
> spot, admit, and correct bad motives is the
> essence of daily living' or character building or
> something like that.

Hint - research superconscious mind, healing imagination, right lateral
brain.

[rockhound]

On Thu, 6 May 2004 08:04:14 -0400, NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net (neuro
equipoise) wrote:

>On - Wed, May 5, 2004, 8:43pm
>helo@null.com (rockhound) wrote:
>
>> Here's my recentest meditation - 'learning how to
>> spot, admit, and correct bad motives is the
>> essence of daily living' or character building or
>> something like that.
>
>Hint - research superconscious mind, healing imagination, right lateral
>brain.

Done, can I take the test now?

"And you can imagine that at the borderline between Theta and Delta,
you're beginning to say "good-bye" to your physical experience of the
world, as you're getting altogether into experiencing yourself as
non-physical being. Here your body is only a thought in your mind. If
you are able to maintain your consciousness at this level, you can
effect instant changes in the outer world. In this state, you can
transcend the "laws of the physical world" because you're not bound by
them any more."


I must wave Theta and Delta good-bye in return.

I still like to screw.


Next?

[rockhound]

On Wed, 05 May 2004 20:43:14 -0400, rockhound <helo@null.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 4 May 2004 10:29:39 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
>>news:e6aab44fa3bd85918fe2aa42b559db5f@news.teranew s.com...
>>> I find there are ample 'role models' of right thinking when you look
>>> for them. How we can use such thoughts to guide our own stumbling
>>> towards right thinking and action, thus right living in general,
>>> becomes the meditation.
>>
>>I don't understand what you mean by "right thinking and action and
>>right living". The word "right" has many meanings including::
>>
>>1. in accordance with accepted standards of moral or legal behaviour,
>>2. in accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct or true: the
>>right answer.
>>3. appropriate, suitable, fitting, or proper:
>>4. most favourable or convenient; preferred:
>>5. correct in opinion or judgment.
>>6. sound in mind or body; healthy or sane.
>>
>>Could you explain what you mean ?
>>
>>JB
>
>Not wrong, is my best guess. Something about choosing character over
>comfort. Stealing instead of working, for example. Doing unto others
>as they have...whatever...however that goes. You know, what they
>tried to teach us in kindergarten. Here's my recentest meditation -
>'learning how to spot, admit, and correct bad motives is the essence
>of daily living' or character building or something like that.
>
>Bad motives, to my understanding, being the selfish ones. Good
>motives, logically following, being the unselfish ones. Action based
>on these. Sorry, words fail me. Cluttered mind. Ask me after I
>overtake you in your progress.

Thought i'd try and tackle this one again, since putting things down
in black and white is an aid to clear thinking, and btw JB thank you
so much for you assistance in clear thinking.

I see re-reading the above i managed to get it bass-ackwards. Must be
guilty. Should have read working instead of stealing, and oh let me
google it......

This is The Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do
unto you."

Translation: How would i like to be treated if i were in their shoes?

Do that.

Let me know if it works for you.

PS None of your list fit, because in the mind of a rationalizing
alcoholic they can all be used to justify the most arrant nonsense.

[neuro equipoise]

On - Thu, May 6, 2004, 2:19pm (EDT+4) user@null.org (rockhound) wrote:

> Next?

Research superconscious mind, healing imagination, right lateral brain.

[rockhound]

On Thu, 6 May 2004 11:09:52 -0400, NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net (neuro
equipoise) wrote:

>On - Thu, May 6, 2004, 2:19pm (EDT+4) user@null.org (rockhound) wrote:
>
>> Next?
>
>Research superconscious mind, healing imagination, right lateral brain.


Thanks, I'll pass.

[Kai R]

rockhound wrote:

> On Tue, 4 May 2004 10:29:39 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:
>
>
>>"rockhound" <user@null.org> wrote in message
>>news:e6aab44fa3bd85918fe2aa42b559db5f@news.teranew s.com...
>>
>>>I find there are ample 'role models' of right thinking when you look
>>>for them. How we can use such thoughts to guide our own stumbling
>>>towards right thinking and action, thus right living in general,
>>>becomes the meditation.
>>
>>I don't understand what you mean by "right thinking and action and
>>right living". The word "right" has many meanings including::
>>
>>1. in accordance with accepted standards of moral or legal behaviour,
>>2. in accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct or true: the
>>right answer.
>>3. appropriate, suitable, fitting, or proper:
>>4. most favourable or convenient; preferred:
>>5. correct in opinion or judgment.
>>6. sound in mind or body; healthy or sane.
>>
>>Could you explain what you mean ?
>>
>>JB
>
>
> Not wrong, is my best guess. Something about choosing character over
> comfort. Stealing instead of working, for example. Doing unto others
> as they have...whatever...however that goes. You know, what they
> tried to teach us in kindergarten. Here's my recentest meditation -
> 'learning how to spot, admit, and correct bad motives is the essence
> of daily living' or character building or something like that.
>
> Bad motives, to my understanding, being the selfish ones. Good
> motives, logically following, being the unselfish ones. Action based
> on these. Sorry, words fail me. Cluttered mind. Ask me after I
> overtake you in your progress.

There are very few unselfish motives. If you do seemingly unselfish
tasks to become a better person or to feel better about yourself,
they're hardly unselfishly motivated, are they?

As a matter of fact, the only times your motives are truly unselfish,
is when you do things that you loath doing and that *in no way* never,
ever benefit you. This is of course impossible because even the most
hard-headed imbeciles usually at least learn something from tedious tasks.

The "Do unto others" stuff has nothing to do with unselfishness and
everything to do with being "a member of the society" and having "a
clean conscience", IMO.

--
Kai

"Gee, I wish we had one of them doomsday machines."
- General "Buck" Turgidson -

[JB]

"Kai R" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:c7ffv6$35t$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi...

> rockhound wrote:
> > Bad motives, to my understanding, being the selfish ones. Good
> > motives, logically following, being the unselfish ones. Action
based
> > on these. Sorry, words fail me. Cluttered mind. Ask me after I
> > overtake you in your progress.
>
> There are very few unselfish motives. If you do seemingly unselfish
> tasks to become a better person or to feel better about yourself,
> they're hardly unselfishly motivated, are they?
>
> As a matter of fact, the only times your motives are truly
unselfish,
> is when you do things that you loath doing and that *in no way*
never,
> ever benefit you. This is of course impossible because even the most
> hard-headed imbeciles usually at least learn something from tedious
tasks.
>
> The "Do unto others" stuff has nothing to do with unselfishness and
> everything to do with being "a member of the society" and having "a
> clean conscience", IMO.
>
> --
> Kai

I'm sometimes amused by how often issues I've been thinking about and
discussing in the real world appear soon afterwards on this NG ;^)
Last Wednesday I mentioned selfishness while sharing at an AA
meeting.

At this time, I'm thinking that "selfishness" is intrinsic in humans
and that maybe it becomes a problem only when someone decides it's on
display when it shouldn't be..

Until recently I thought that it was alright for others to be selfish
but not alright for me to be. Now I think it's OK for me to be
selfish at times and not OK at other times. For example, if my
husband gives me cause to think that he would prefer I did not go to
an AA meeting and I think that he could manage quite well without me
being at home for that length of time, then I'll go out. IMO, this
"selfishness" on my part is necessary/justified because I know that
at AA meetings I often find strength to cope with my life; strength
that my husband cannot give me. Therefore, my selfishness is in
order to further my recovery from alcoholism. Two circumstances in
which it would not, IMO, be appropriate for me to act selfishly,
would be if I decided to continue composing a post for this NG while
either my husband was having difficulty breathing on account of
having a problem with his breathing apparatus or wanting to go to
bed....

I believe that I am beginning to understand when it might not be OK
for me to selfish. Putting that understanding to practical use
requires effort; effort that I sometimes prefer not to make.

Having decided that being selfish when it is not appropriate for me to
be selfish is one of my character defects and also having decided that
I want to be rid of this defect, I believe that I ought to practice
being unselfish when being unselfish is appropriate in the hope
eventually it will become my instinctive reaction. Should it become
an instinctive reaction, maybe at this point, I should think that my
HP has succeeded in removing one of my character defects/shortcomings.

JB

[Tono]

George &The Dragon wrote:

> I've never understood this phrase.
>
> Anytime I've heard it, it's been directed at someone who is sober but isn't
> liked!

That is usually because the person stopped drinking, but still acts
and has the morals of a drunk who doesn't give a shit about anyone
but himself.

Tono