Should we always forgive ?

[catsruleok]

On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:

Daily Reflections

. . . . AND FORGIVE

Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive others--also myself.
AS BILL SEE IT p. 268

Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the same river, both hindered
or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted, both currents can flow.
The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and subsequently blocked off this flow
in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the grace of God as I
understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can find the necessary grace
which enables me to forgive myself and others.

I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant to be interpreted as
forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't think that I would be able
to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me and in so doing, get on
with the rest of my life.

If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I would love to hear from you.

JB

[My Name]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk:

> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again,
> to forgive others--also myself. AS BILL SEE IT p. 268

> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two
> currents in the same river, both hindered or shut off
> completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is
> lifted, both currents can flow. The Steps of A.A. allow me
> to see how resentment has built up and subsequently blocked
> off this flow in my life. The Steps provide a way by which
> my resentments may - by the grace of God as I understand
> Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I
> can find the necessary grace which enables me to forgive
> myself and others.

> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive
> others is meant to be interpreted as forgiving others *no
> matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't think
> that I would be able to do this. What I would prefer to
> do is to try to put things behind me and in so doing, get
> on with the rest of my life.

> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue
> for you, I would love to hear from you.

> JB

Jesus, (I mean JB) you aren't gonna make this easy are you?
(agonizing sigh here) Yeah, I've struggled with it for years.

I usta untill very recently think that forgiveness wasn't to be
granted carte blanche. One had to ask for it. Express remorse
and ask to be forgiven. My rationale was that this is the way it
is in the Bible. The only time Jesus forgave without being asked
first, was when on the cross. Then he said: Father forgive them
for they know not what they do. <--See he gave his reason for
granting the forgiveness without having been asked. "for they
know not what they do." I reasoned, I'm not forgiving anyone
unless they at least say they are sorry. So there I sit not
allowed to take revenge, and harboring resentment. Stewing in my
own juices, as it were. Unable to understand the way out of the
conundrum. (Now what to do with all the pent up anger?)

The only way I found was when I realized that they genuinely had
not known what they had done to me. They had just hit my vehicle
and left. <--That is what caused my last impulsive drinking
bout. That left me in a rage that I had nothing to unleash it
on. At least not appropriatly. They were never gonna apologize,
and I was never gonna get over it. I was in a fix I couldn't see
a way out of. Then it dawned on me. Others never truly realize
what they have done to us. Not truly. So I forgive them for the
same reason Jesus did: For they genuinely know not what they do.
Not in reality, not really, not fully comprehending the affect
that their actions have had on us.
Some more Bible quotes now: Blessed are the merciful, for thay
shall obtain mercy. Mercy rejoices against judgement. With what
measure you judge, you shall also be judged. Well, I want to be
forgiven, and I'm sure I am not fully aware of the misery I have
caused others nor, I am sure, in all cases have I apologized.
So, I think it is necessary to forgive.

Still not drinking, BTW.

--
You know that some people are different.Now ain't that a crying
shame.Wouldn't it be a real drag, if we were all the same.Savoy
Brown

[Bobby L.]

Yes, No Matter what they have done to us. And at this stage it is no small
surprise that you will not do this. It's important to know this is not
something you cannot do, but something you will not do. It is not something
you are unable to do, but more something you do not want to do. Too often,
we define ourselves by what has been done TO us, and there is quite
naturally great fear in letting go of those things -- for then, we fear we
may lose sight of who we are. We hold on to the most unhealthy parts of
humanity, because we have become comfortable with this. It is amazing the
things with which we can become comfortable.

Forgiveness is not something I decided to do. It was something I had to
learn to do. This is not a religious thing - it is a survival thing. We
are only as sick as our secrets, but we are most definitely just as sick as
our secrets. Part of our secrets are the things that hurt us which we are
unwilling to let go. We say we want to move forward, but still keep one
foot firmly planted in the past. This sounds like what you are saying. It
reminds of something I once heard, "If you have one foot in tomorrow and the
other in yesterday, all you can do is piss on today."

When I first started going to AA meetings I had issues with some things I
had blocked out. The memories only came back in sobriety, triggered by
other memories. I especially had trouble with those things done TO me which
I had no control over. So why did I have to forgive these people? For ME!
Over years and years I had been holding on to those things that had hurt me
and my unwillingness to let them go kept me from participating in the
healthier parts of any relationship.

Forgiveness still is not something that I just "decided" to do. Of course,
it probably starts with that, but most of the time it takes work and
education; sometimes it takes a lot of work. The first step in forgiveness
though, was not cleaning someone else's house, but cleaning my own. The
forgiveness Bill is talking about comes after we have cleaned our own house.
I had to learn to forgive myself first for all the shit I had done.

I hear folks all the time talk about they only hurt others because of what
was done to them. That is a load of shit. We all hurt others because by
nature we are selfish, self-centered asses. Once we figure that part out,
we seem to get better. Even the Martyrs among turn out to be just a selfish
and controlling as the violent drunk, usually even more so.

Back to the question at hand, Do you have to learn to forgive - no matter
what? Only if you want to be able to put it behind you and move forward.
Otherwise it's not behind you, it's just packed in that suitcase of shit
you're carrying around.

Bobby L




"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...


> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive
others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the
same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted,
both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and
subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the
grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can
find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant
to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me
and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from you.
>
> JB
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

JB,
in early sobriety, it became quite clear that i had some big problems with forgiving my ex-husbands ten years of abusive
behavior (both physical and emotional)

in order for me to "move on" i DID have to deal with the damage done, find a way to forgive, (NOT EXCUSE) his behavior,
correct MY behavior and make amends for my part in it.

i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse, who felt they could not forgive, and my advise to most, is to
wait.................just wait...................don't force a thing.
there is NO RUSH, but there is alot of work to do, to bring them (the victim) some resolve and feeling of safety and
control.

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

rash indeed is he who reckons on the morrow, or
haply on days beyond it; for tomorrow is not, until
today is past.
...............................sophocles (406 BC)



"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted, both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I would love to hear from you.
>
> JB
>
>

[Shawster]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive
others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the
same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted,
both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and
subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the
grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can
find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant
to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me
and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from you.

You bring up a lot of points JB, more than I think you realise. first of
all, I am going to step up and ask if you realize that you are powerless
over alcohol? and is your life unmanageable? I ask in the present tense as
the only thing that has change from a month ago, is that you are not
drinking. While that is great, it is not the end, but a beginning. Alcohol
works, otherwise we would not have drank. Unfortunately (or fortunately) it
has consequences. Since you are here and you are not drinkiing, I would
assume that at some point you decided that the consequnces were too much.
Fine: remember those consequences. You have come to realize, I hope that
you cannot safely drink, and that today you will do your best not to, by any
means neccesary.

When you say "I don't think I can do this..." that is fine. That means you
are willing to try but don't have the tools necessary to do this. You
didn't say, I never will, or can't. So you are doing great. Guess what? it
took me over a year to learn forgiveness. So at one month, you are exactly
where you need to be.

realizing that your goal is not to drink, and that resentments will cause
you to drink. we need to learn how to forgive to remain sober. the person
you need to forgive, needs forgiveness so that you may stay sober. It has
nothing to do with them. And at *no* point in this do we say to them "I
forgive you". unless you are actually God, and in that case you should
already know all this.

So we did step one, this crisis is unmanageable, and we don't want to drink.
Do you think it can be resolved? great, step two. Do you think a power
greater than yourself (even if it is only this group) can help? step three.
Four, what is your part in all this? I know you said a grave injustice was
done to you, but things are rarely so cut and dry. How does it affect you?
your safety, income, sex-life, security, *EGO*? I am willing to say that
Ego is what is affeected here, and that is the easiest one to let go of.
Now, the dilemma. You don't want to share what the specific incedent is,
well that's OK, I am going to give you a pass on this one, as long as you
find yourself a quiet place, and write out your feelings on all this, then
read it out loud. yes out loud, I want you to hear it. Now after reading
all that out loud, do you thinkk the accounting is complete? do you see your
side in it? is the whole incident clearer? good that was step six. Now,
out loud again " My creator, I am now willing that you have all of me, good
and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character
which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me
strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." that was
seven. Pay attention to the word usefullness.

I'll stop here, as i think you have enogh of an assignment for today. And
please do not think by any means that yo have now gone through steps one
through seven of AA. This is just how it works, and the way to apply it to
a special situation and practice these principals.


JB, people are fallible. I am fallible. I have done a lot of stuff, and have
been forgiven. I have been shown great mercy by people, and by God. I had
to learn to forgive others as I have been forgiven. Then and only then can I
truly leave it behind and move on.

In my drinking days, I stole a lot of things. One night, I thought it would
be a good idea to steal my neighbors TV. Guilt wracked me though, and in a
blackout, I confessed to a friend. My friend told my neighbors that he knew
who stole their TV, and that it would get returned. I returned the TV
anonymously, and they gave my friend a Bible, to give to me. They chose to
forgive me and move on, rather than trouble themselves with getting me
arrested, or getting even with me, even though I caused them a great deal of
anguish and harm. they were in the house at the time I broke in and stole
the TV. They didn't feel safe anymore. So I stole a great deal more than
just a TV, I stole their piece of mind. yet they still chose to forgive me.
And that is a lesson I will never forget, and I still have the bible.

So when my first sponsor broke my trust and cofessed he had a crush on me, I
was devistated, and i wanted to drink. I was mad at him, and i was mad at
AA. One day I actually heard the words of the Lord's prayer, "Forgive us
our tesspasses as we forgive those that tresspass against us." And in that
moment I thought of my sponsor, and forgave him. It unloaded that great
burdon I had been carrying for months from my shoulders. Now I can shake
his hand and honestly be a friend to him. He is not my sponsor anymore, and
I will not forget what happened. But I forgave him, and we are free from
fear.

I hope you stay sober today.

Shaw
to answer thequestion, yes. Always.

>
>
>

[stuart]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> On the 17th May, Rosie posted the following:
>
> Daily Reflections
>
> . . . . AND FORGIVE
>
> Under very trying conditions I have had, again and again, to forgive
others--also myself.
> AS BILL SEE IT p. 268
>
> Forgiveness of self and forgiveness of others are just two currents in the
same river, both hindered
> or shut off completely by the dam of resentment. Once that dam is lifted,
both currents can flow.
> The Steps of A.A. allow me to see how resentment has built up and
subsequently blocked off this flow
> in my life. The Steps provide a way by which my resentments may - by the
grace of God as I
> understand Him - be lifted. It is as a result of this solution that I can
find the necessary grace
> which enables me to forgive myself and others.
>
> I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is meant
to be interpreted as
> forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be able
> to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind me
and in so doing, get on
> with the rest of my life.
>
> If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from you.
>
> JB

We don't forgive others to condone what they do, but rather to release the
resentments einthin ourselves.
Make sense?

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse, who felt they
could not forgive, and my advise to most, is to
> wait.................just wait...................don't force a thing.
> there is NO RUSH, but there is alot of work to do, to bring them (the
victim) some resolve and feeling of safety and
> control.

And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?

But, since you brought it up....it points out what a twisted bag of crap you
really are. Telling someone there is "no rush" in working through
forgiveness is pure hogwash.

"No! Don't change MY diapers. I LIKE sitting in all this shit.".

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
>
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,

<snip>

Rosie


> And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
>
<snip>

Hi Moonraker,

You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the question I posed. If they
do, would you like to share them with us ?

JB

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be9o8i$kt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> >
> > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,
>
> <snip>
>
> Rosie
>
>
> > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
> >
> <snip>
>
> Hi Moonraker,
>
> You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the
question I posed. If they
> do, would you like to share them with us ?
>
> JB
>
>
Maybe...just "which" question are you referring to?

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be9u1u$l0b$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Is AA's Bill's idea that we should forgive others meant to be interpreted
as forgiving others *no
> matter what they do to us* ?
>
> JB

"We are not saints. The point is, we claim spiritual progress, not
spiritual perfection".

I think that would be the ideal situation... to forgive "everybody". In
reality, it may not be totally possible. I don't think you can forgive
until you forget, and I don't think you can forget until you forgive.
It's a conundrum.

the 4th and 5th steps have us looking at what part we played in the
situation. Sometimes we actually are just plain old victims...no doubt
about it. Other times, we had a part in it and we don't understand why
others react to us the way they did....until we begin to look at ourselves.

WE are told that resentments will get us drunk, and that's why we need to
forgive. Starting with yourself.

+++did this help? I hope so.++

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v1%Na.178836$Xl.2948882@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> Moon,
> you really do need to chill............................all this name
calling/anger is going to raise your blood
> pressure!
>
..

Don't worry about my blood pressure, dearie. You don't amount to a pinch
of owl shit in my scheme of things.

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:DE_Na.34558$9s2.21697@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com ...
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:be9o8i$kt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > >
> > > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Rosie
> >
> >
> > > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
> > >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Hi Moonraker,
> >
> > You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the
> question I posed. If they
> > do, would you like to share them with us ?
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
> Maybe...just "which" question are you referring to?
>
My question was:

Is AA's Bill's idea that we should forgive others meant to be interpreted as forgiving others *no
matter what they do to us* ?

JB
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

[stuart]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be9u1u$l0b$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:DE_Na.34558$9s2.21697@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com ...
> >
> > "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:be9o8i$kt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > > >
> > > > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in
message
> > > > news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Rosie
> > >
> > >
> > > > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Hi Moonraker,
> > >
> > > You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the
> > question I posed. If they
> > > do, would you like to share them with us ?
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > >
> > Maybe...just "which" question are you referring to?
> >
> My question was:
>
> Is AA's Bill's idea that we should forgive others meant to be interpreted
as forgiving others *no
> matter what they do to us* ?
>
> JB

yes.


>
>

[catsruleok]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:_b%Na.6852$VU3.5076@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:be9u1u$l0b$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > Is AA's Bill's idea that we should forgive others meant to be interpreted
> as forgiving others *no
> > matter what they do to us* ?
> >
> > JB
>
> "We are not saints. The point is, we claim spiritual progress, not
> spiritual perfection".
>
> I think that would be the ideal situation... to forgive "everybody". In
> reality, it may not be totally possible. I don't think you can forgive
> until you forget, and I don't think you can forget until you forgive.
> It's a conundrum.
>
> the 4th and 5th steps have us looking at what part we played in the
> situation. Sometimes we actually are just plain old victims...no doubt
> about it. Other times, we had a part in it and we don't understand why
> others react to us the way they did....until we begin to look at ourselves.
>
> WE are told that resentments will get us drunk, and that's why we need to
> forgive. Starting with yourself.
>
> +++did this help? I hope so.++
>
Hi Moonraker,

You hoped that this reply was helpful and the answer is yes because it has given me much to think
about. Thank you very much.

JB

[stuart]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:beagnv$c5m$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be91v1$eph$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> :
> <snip>>
>
> > I am wondering whether Bill's idea that we should forgive others is
meant to be interpreted as
> > forgiving others *no matter what they do to us*. If it is, then I don't
think that I would be
> able
> > to do this. What I would prefer to do is to try to put things behind
me and in so doing, get on
> > with the rest of my life.
> >
> > If the question of forgiveness is or has been a major issue for you, I
would love to hear from
> you.
> >
> > JB
> >
> This is just a quick note to say thank you to all of you who answered the
above message. Because I
> want to carefully consider everything you have said before posting
anything further on the subject
> of forgiveness, at this point, I can only thank you for sharing your
views. Thank you very much.
>
> JB

JB

Anything you don't forgive has the potential to be replayed over and over
and over in your mind, and therefore has the potential to make you drink,and
possibly die.
Why would you not forgive everyone who has wronged you. It is for YOUR
benefit after all. Don't you see that yet?

Another little problem crops up for me, when I replay those old hurts over
and over in my head. You know what that is? Every time I do that, what they
did to me gets just a little worse and a little worse, 'cause we love that
hurt. and my part in it gets just a little cleaner and cleaner...
And that's a handicap in later learning,in itself.....

[Moonraker]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:beaf87$b9i$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:_b%Na.6852$VU3.5076@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com.. .
> >
> > "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:be9u1u$l0b$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > You hoped that this reply was helpful and the answer is yes because it
has given me much to think
> about. Thank you very much.
>
> JB
>
>
No problem, JB. Good luck in whatever is troubling you. You have my real
email addy from a note I sent you about sleep problems. If you want to
discuss whatever it is that's bothering you...feel free to write privately.

[rosie readandpost]

> >
> You flatter yourself to think that any of the drivel you post is worthy of a
> second thought, muchless a fixation.
>
>

ROTFLMAO!

then perhaps you ought to stop posting to EACH AND EVERYONE of my comments!
google yourself if you need proof....................

[rosie readandpost]

> No problem, JB. Good luck in whatever is troubling you. You have my real
> email addy from a note I sent you about sleep problems. If you want to
> discuss whatever it is that's bothering you...feel free to write privately.
>


now THAT'S support!
way to go moon!

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6KdOa.190276
>
>
> now THAT'S support!
> way to go moon!
>
>
Like I need your approval?

[Blue Moon]

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<_b%Na.6852$VU3.5076@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com>...

> I don't think you can forgive until you forget, and I don't think you can
> forget until you forgive.
> It's a conundrum.

I feel I've been able to forgive stuff without forgetting it. My
perception of situations just altered slightly. I became less the
victim of a person, and perhaps more accepting of "shit happens" or,
at worst, a victim of circumstance.

It helped to read the passage in the Big Book (in Step 4) about others
also being spiritually sick. That helped me realize truths about
people that I'd not previously perceived - some people are just SICK.
And, like me, they can often go for years, maybe even a lifetime,
without a clue of just how sick they are. Such people can be easy to
spot - blaming the rest of the world for their problems, etc. Or
sometimes it's just more subtle (people who are two-faced etc. can be
even sicker than those with the out-and-out "I'm a victim" mentality).

So, in realising that assholes are probably mentally ill in some way,
that helped me realise that it's not necessarily ME with the problem
at all! The truth of it is, unlike them, I'm damn lucky to have been
offered a real opportunity to turn into someone a little less sick.

[Blue Moon]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<mO_Na.178832$Xl.2947975@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...

> > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
>
> its VERY MUCH on topic.........................this forum is
> RECOVERY.ADDICTION.ALCOHOLISM.

Well, I'm not sure that means an awful lot nowadays :(

> there is alot more to do than just "put the plug in the
> jug"..................................

Indeed there is, however that seems in contradiction to the post to
which Moonraker was referring. I think you snipped the pertinent
quote from Moonraker's reply:

"i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse, who felt
they could not forgive, and my advise to most, is to
wait.................just wait...................don't force a thing.
there is NO RUSH,"

Now, if we're talking specifically of recovery from alcoholism, as
distinct from any other counselling therapy you may be doing, nowhere
have I found in any recovery directions the suggestion of "wait" or
"do nothing". The AA program is, very specifically, a program of
ACTION. For bad feelings, there are very specific directions on what
to do.

If I had waited to feel better before taking the Actions necessary to
recover, I will have drunk and I would have died with untreated
alcoholism.

I don't see how this is compatible with your message of "just wait"
and "there is no rush". If I were feeling at risk of drinking, the
urgency to take alternative action would be immediate.

"but there is alot of work to do, to bring them (the victim) some
resolve and feeling of safety and control."

Not sure how that fits in with the concept of "just wait ...", but the
AA program also teaches us, very specifically, to quit playing the
role of "victim". Unless they're kids, abuse "victims" need to learn
the role they play in their own downfall if they're to stop making the
same mistakes, including the kind of thinking that landed them with
such a loser in the first place. So they need to quit being the
"victim", and surely any half-decent counsellor needs to quit
referring to them as such. The person abusing (or accused of abuse)
is also a "victim", it's just manifested differently.

Given that you are such an ardent proponent of AA's Traditions, I
struggle to understand how you can sometimes be so contradicting of
what seems so clearly written in AA's recovery program.

[rosie readandpost]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Moonraker]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Q%hOa.181671$Xl.3024857@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
>
>
"Kiss my vertical smile!"......Hawkeye Pierce

[Moonraker]

Very well put, Blue. Unfortunately, the one who needs it the most replies
to you with "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".

I can't imagine sitting in an AA room with her......she'd last about 30
seconds in my home group before one of about 6 different people would tell
her to shut the fuck up.


"Blue Moon" <mfoco_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7747c27d.0307070908.6093ab9c@posting.google.c om...
> "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<mO_Na.178832$Xl.2947975@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
>
> > > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
> >
> > its VERY MUCH on topic.........................this forum is
> > RECOVERY.ADDICTION.ALCOHOLISM.
>
> Well, I'm not sure that means an awful lot nowadays :(
>
> > there is alot more to do than just "put the plug in the
> > jug"..................................
>
> Indeed there is, however that seems in contradiction to the post to
> which Moonraker was referring. I think you snipped the pertinent
> quote from Moonraker's reply:
>
> "i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse, who felt
> they could not forgive, and my advise to most, is to
> wait.................just wait...................don't force a thing.
> there is NO RUSH,"
>
> Now, if we're talking specifically of recovery from alcoholism, as
> distinct from any other counselling therapy you may be doing, nowhere
> have I found in any recovery directions the suggestion of "wait" or
> "do nothing". The AA program is, very specifically, a program of
> ACTION. For bad feelings, there are very specific directions on what
> to do.
>
> If I had waited to feel better before taking the Actions necessary to
> recover, I will have drunk and I would have died with untreated
> alcoholism.
>
> I don't see how this is compatible with your message of "just wait"
> and "there is no rush". If I were feeling at risk of drinking, the
> urgency to take alternative action would be immediate.
>
> "but there is alot of work to do, to bring them (the victim) some
> resolve and feeling of safety and control."
>
> Not sure how that fits in with the concept of "just wait ...", but the
> AA program also teaches us, very specifically, to quit playing the
> role of "victim". Unless they're kids, abuse "victims" need to learn
> the role they play in their own downfall if they're to stop making the
> same mistakes, including the kind of thinking that landed them with
> such a loser in the first place. So they need to quit being the
> "victim", and surely any half-decent counsellor needs to quit
> referring to them as such. The person abusing (or accused of abuse)
> is also a "victim", it's just manifested differently.
>
> Given that you are such an ardent proponent of AA's Traditions, I
> struggle to understand how you can sometimes be so contradicting of
> what seems so clearly written in AA's recovery program.

[Robert McGregor]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hJdOa.190275$jT4.3538557@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > >
> > You flatter yourself to think that any of the drivel you post is worthy
of a
> > second thought, muchless a fixation.
> >
> >
>
> ROTFLMAO!
>
> then perhaps you ought to stop posting to EACH AND EVERYONE of my
comments!
> google yourself if you need proof....................
>
Searched Groups for group:alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
author:readandpost. Results 1 - 10 of about 1,340. Search took 0.27
seconds.
Searched Groups for group:alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
author:moonraker. Results 1 - 10 of about 295. Search took 0.37 seconds.

[Robert McGregor]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:be9u1u$l0b$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:DE_Na.34558$9s2.21697@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com ...
> >
> > "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> > news:be9o8i$kt$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:7VYNa.1$Qn6.0@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com...
> > > >
> > > > "rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in
message
> > > > news:SvWNa.178223$Xl.2926075@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> > > > >> i have worked with many people who suffered SEXUAL abuse,
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Rosie
> > >
> > >
> > > > And how is this on-topic for alcoholism?
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > Hi Moonraker,
> > >
> > > You have strong opinions on many subjects. .I hope these extend to the
> > question I posed. If they
> > > do, would you like to share them with us ?
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > >
> > Maybe...just "which" question are you referring to?
> >
> My question was:
>
> Is AA's Bill's idea that we should forgive others meant to be interpreted
as forgiving others *no
> matter what they do to us* ?
>
> JB
> >
> >

Why worry what Bill's idea was, unless you want what Bill had? Even while
he was writing the 12 & 12 telling others how to be "Happy, Joyous and Free"
Bill was in prololounged suicidal depression. Bill later claimed his
depression was because of his own inability to take the steps. (Pass It On
page 299)


Few AAers are aware that consensus amongst the founders stopped about the
time the precise 12 step wording was consensualy decided on. (AA comes Of
Age pages 162, 163) The rest of the Big Book was the opinions of Bill, and
possibly Hank. (Bill even edited the personal stories, despite the protests
of respective authors. According to AA literature, Hank was already drinking
again and "voluntarily" signed over his share of the Big Book profits before
those profits started rolling in.


Given the subject question, my own attitude to forgiveness is all that
waffle about loving the person and hating the sin might be ok for Saints,
but it aint ok by me.

However.

Resentments are a completely different deal imo. Resentment could be giving
me a heart attack, while the resentee is blissfuly unaware. One of my first
lessons regarding my own resentments was step four analysis of my absolute
refusal to darken the door of the local Suzuki dealer, because one of his
staff had made a mistake that cost me money.

I owned a Suzuki, and inevitably needed parts for it, but did not even try
to resolve the problem.

Crazy!

Bob

[rosie readandpost]

robert,
you know the deal................change your addy......................have you forgotten so soon?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie
if you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.
....................................will rogers

[rosie readandpost]

> At this point, I am thinking that if we alcoholics can't forget the part we think others may have
> played in making us what we are, then it makes good sense to tackle the problem we have from the
> angle of forgiveness and not to worry unduly about whether or not we should be trying to forget.
>
> Would any one care to comment ?
>
> JB
>
>


i remember doing my fifth step with my sponsor, and being questioned over and over about "my part in
it".........................sometimes i DID have a part in it, other times i didn't!

i know that THERAPY DISCUSSION is frowned upon, *by some* in here, but i still believe that "getting to" forgiveness
can take some work and for some its as simple as a 4th-5th-6th step.

for others, they seek professional help to overcome some of the problems of the past.
imo, and the opinion of many that i respect, that is how it should be!
does that help?

rosie

[Shawster]

>
> Why worry what Bill's idea was, unless you want what Bill had? Even while
> he was writing the 12 & 12 telling others how to be "Happy, Joyous and
Free"
> Bill was in prololounged suicidal depression. Bill later claimed his
> depression was because of his own inability to take the steps. (Pass It On
> page 299)

because somehow he managed to write the book, ad start the fellowship,
despite.

>
>
> Few AAers are aware that consensus amongst the founders stopped about the
> time the precise 12 step wording was consensualy decided on. (AA comes Of
> Age pages 162, 163) The rest of the Big Book was the opinions of Bill, and
> possibly Hank. (Bill even edited the personal stories, despite the
protests
> of respective authors. According to AA literature, Hank was already
drinking
> again and "voluntarily" signed over his share of the Big Book profits
before
> those profits started rolling in.

so? heresay and a red herring.
>
>
> Given the subject question, my own attitude to forgiveness is all that
> waffle about loving the person and hating the sin might be ok for Saints,
> but it aint ok by me.

Ah, back to the subject. Bob, you were forgiven by at least one person
that you ninth stepped right??
>
> However.
>
> Resentments are a completely different deal imo. Resentment could be
giving
> me a heart attack, while the resentee is blissfuly unaware. One of my
first
> lessons regarding my own resentments was step four analysis of my absolute
> refusal to darken the door of the local Suzuki dealer, because one of his
> staff had made a mistake that cost me money.
>
> I owned a Suzuki, and inevitably needed parts for it, but did not even try
> to resolve the problem.
>
> Crazy!

yeah well. ;o)
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>

[Bobby L.]

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a2pOa.90000$fe.1834346@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > At this point, I am thinking that if we alcoholics can't forget the part
we think others may have
> > played in making us what we are, then it makes good sense to tackle the
problem we have from the
> > angle of forgiveness and not to worry unduly about whether or not we
should be trying to forget.
> >
> > Would any one care to comment ?
> >
> > JB
> >
> >
>
>
> i remember doing my fifth step with my sponsor, and being questioned over
and over about "my part in
> it".........................sometimes i DID have a part in it, other times
i didn't!
>
> i know that THERAPY DISCUSSION is frowned upon, *by some* in here, but i
still believe that "getting to" forgiveness
> can take some work and for some its as simple as a 4th-5th-6th step.
>
> for others, they seek professional help to overcome some of the problems
of the past.
> imo, and the opinion of many that i respect, that is how it should be!
> does that help?
>
> rosie
>
>

If I am still holding on to an injustice and using that to "justify" other
inaction or behavior or fear then THAT is my part in it. Forgiveness is not
forgetting, but letting go and it is definitely a process which takes
time -- time to learn, time to do. I do not think it's realistic to forget
all the things that once hurt me. By the same logic I do not think it is
healthy for me to forget all the things I have done to hurt others. It is
said that those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it -- martyrs
and bullies and everyone in-between alike. With that in mind, I prefer to
remember the things that brought me here, but I choose to try not to let
them "control" my today, or my tomorrow, as they once did. These hurts no
longer are the reason for my being -- they are things that happened to me,
but they are not me and I am not them.

Bobby L

[Blue Moon]

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:23:18 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
<readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:

>> At this point, I am thinking that if we alcoholics can't forget the part we think others may have
>> played in making us what we are, then it makes good sense to tackle the problem we have from the
>> angle of forgiveness and not to worry unduly about whether or not we should be trying to forget.
>>
>> Would any one care to comment ?

I think maybe it's time to quit thinking and start doing :)

>> JB
>
> i remember doing my fifth step with my sponsor, and being questioned over and over about "my part in
>it".........................sometimes i DID have a part in it, other times i didn't!

Surely if you had done a thorough Step 4 you would already have had
this information.

Step 5 is about admitting the exact nature of OUR wrongs. Not other
people's. Sounds like your sponsor was trying to get you to finish
off Step 4 ... in your mind, not on paper. Step 4 is very
specifically a written inventory, and for good reason.

>i know that THERAPY DISCUSSION is frowned upon, *by some* in here, but i still believe that "getting to" forgiveness
>can take some work and for some its as simple as a 4th-5th-6th step.

What is therapy if it's not the process of Steps 4 thru 7, except that
it involves less action and thus can involve more pain? If therapy
was all that's required to solve the alcoholism problem, there'd be a
whole lot more therapy and no AA. Fortunes have been spent on therapy
trying to find a solution. That's irrefutable fact!

The difference between therapy and the AA program ... therapy says "we
will change your thinking, and eventually your actions and feelings
will change". AA, this bunch of well-meaning amateurs, say "we will
change your ACTIONS, and eventually your thinking and feelings will
change". One's instinct is to follow the advice of the professionals,
until one realizes that the AA program has hundreds of millions of
sober alcoholics, the therapists have .... how many?

Therapy has its place, certainly. But it offers no solution to
alcoholism and, in the main, has even given up pretending otherwise.

>for others, they seek professional help to overcome some of the problems of the past.
>imo, and the opinion of many that i respect, that is how it should be!

Your opinion seems to have just blown your alleged endorsement of the
AA program out of the water. What is it about the program that you
endorse?

--
Blue Moon

[Robert McGregor]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FIpOa.67779$ic1.1097099@twister.tampabay.rr.c om...
> >
> > Why worry what Bill's idea was, unless you want what Bill had? Even
while
> > he was writing the 12 & 12 telling others how to be "Happy, Joyous and
> Free"
> > Bill was in prololounged suicidal depression. Bill later claimed his
> > depression was because of his own inability to take the steps. (Pass It
On
> > page 299)
>
> because somehow he managed to write the book, ad start the fellowship,
> despite.
>
> >
> >
> > Few AAers are aware that consensus amongst the founders stopped about
the
> > time the precise 12 step wording was consensualy decided on. (AA comes
Of
> > Age pages 162, 163) The rest of the Big Book was the opinions of Bill,
and
> > possibly Hank. (Bill even edited the personal stories, despite the
> protests
> > of respective authors. According to AA literature, Hank was already
> drinking
> > again and "voluntarily" signed over his share of the Big Book profits
> before
> > those profits started rolling in.
>
> so? heresay and a red herring.

If it was hearsay, it was AA approved hearsay;-) Certainly not a red herring
though, against that infamous red herring, "if you want what we have"

> >
> >
> > Given the subject question, my own attitude to forgiveness is all that
> > waffle about loving the person and hating the sin might be ok for
Saints,
> > but it aint ok by me.
>
> Ah, back to the subject. Bob, you were forgiven by at least one person
> that you ninth stepped right??

Accepted, yes, but as to forgiven, I have no idea.

> >
> > However.
> >
> > Resentments are a completely different deal imo. Resentment could be
> giving
> > me a heart attack, while the resentee is blissfuly unaware. One of my
> first
> > lessons regarding my own resentments was step four analysis of my
absolute
> > refusal to darken the door of the local Suzuki dealer, because one of
his
> > staff had made a mistake that cost me money.
> >
> > I owned a Suzuki, and inevitably needed parts for it, but did not even
try
> > to resolve the problem.
> >
> > Crazy!
>
> yeah well. ;o)
> >


Yeah well, active drunks have never been infamous as profoundly sane;-)

Bob

[catsruleok]

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bcf35b018f1780c5d57becf00cb5ff48@free.teranew s.com...
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:23:18 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >> At this point, I am thinking that if we alcoholics can't forget the part we think others may
have
> >> played in making us what we are, then it makes good sense to tackle the problem we have from
the
> >> angle of forgiveness and not to worry unduly about whether or not we should be trying to
forget.
> >>
> >> Would any one care to comment ?
>
> I think maybe it's time to quit thinking and start doing :)

<snip>

>>> Blue Moon

I can't do both ? :^))

I think I've mentioned before that I used to go AA meetings. One of the reasons why I stopped going
was because of the reprimand I received for raising a "taboo" subject during a discussion on
forgiveness. The subject was sex abuse . I wanted to know how I could forgive my BIL for using me
when I was a very young child to satisfy some of his sexual needs. At that time, I thought that my
BIL's behaviour had contributed to my developing in adult life a drink problem. I was told that AA
meetings were not an appropriate place to discuss such things because of the likely adverse effect
such a discussion might have on alcohlics who had experinenced what I had but had only just started
down the road to recovery. Well, at that point, I had only just started down that road and I needed
a satisfactory answer to my question in order to be able to continue my journey. No-one seemed to
understand this nor was anyone prepared to try to understand where I was coming from. They seemd to
be saying forget it. I now realise that what they might actually have been saying was, "we can't
deal with this and not one must know that we can't". You'll be pleased to know that I have forgiven
them for how they reacted :^)) You'll also be pleased to know that I no longer make judgements
about a whole organisation on the basis of how its individual members behave.

What subscribers to this NG have contributed to this general discussion on forgiveness and
forgetting, has helped me to understand how to deal with specific incidents. I hope others have
found it equally helpful.

JB

[Kai]

Moonraker wrote:
> Very well put, Blue. Unfortunately, the one who needs it the most
> replies to you with "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".
>
> I can't imagine sitting in an AA room with her......she'd last about
> 30 seconds in my home group before one of about 6 different people
> would tell her to shut the fuck up.

That's cool, do you have a printed list of approved opinions on the meeting
room wall? You ever heard of tolerance?

Kai

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <beec4d$mrr$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>, Kai
<soberon@NOSPAM.luukku.com> writes
>Moonraker wrote:
>> Very well put, Blue. Unfortunately, the one who needs it the most
>> replies to you with "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".
>>
>> I can't imagine sitting in an AA room with her......she'd last about
>> 30 seconds in my home group before one of about 6 different people
>> would tell her to shut the fuck up.
>
>That's cool, do you have a printed list of approved opinions on the meeting
>room wall? You ever heard of tolerance?

He probably thinks it's a type of paint thinners.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Moonraker]

"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
news:y6yDNdX6yrC$Ewgo@aol.com...
>>
> He probably thinks it's a type of paint thinners.
> --
> Jonathan Bratt

Don't give up your day job in favor of a comedy gig.

[Jonathan Bratt]

In message <CmzOa.764$RI6.567@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> writes
>
>"Jonathan Bratt" <jonnybratt@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:y6yDNdX6yrC$Ewgo@aol.com...
>>>
>> He probably thinks it's a type of paint thinners.
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>Don't give up your day job in favor of a comedy gig.
>
>
>
Sure won't - you have the franchise on being a comedian.
--
Jonathan Bratt

[Mias]

Sniped - Snip - snip...
You'll also be pleased to know that I no longer make judgements about a
whole organisation on the basis of how its individual members behave.

Dear JB
Someone once told me to not confuse AA with it's members...
Great going for you. BIL's are a difficult one to survive but you have done
it!
Kind regards
Mias
14 Years clean and sober and enjoying every second of it!
P.S. I forgive you for bringing the subject of forgiveness up here.

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bedup5$hg5$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bcf35b018f1780c5d57becf00cb5ff48@free.teranew s.com...
> > On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:23:18 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> > <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> At this point, I am thinking that if we alcoholics can't forget the
part we think others may
> have
> > >> played in making us what we are, then it makes good sense to tackle
the problem we have from
> the
> > >> angle of forgiveness and not to worry unduly about whether or not we
should be trying to
> forget.
> > >>
> > >> Would any one care to comment ?
> >
> > I think maybe it's time to quit thinking and start doing :)
>
> <snip>
>
> >>> Blue Moon
>
> I can't do both ? :^))
>
> I think I've mentioned before that I used to go AA meetings. One of the
reasons why I stopped going
> was because of the reprimand I received for raising a "taboo" subject
during a discussion on
> forgiveness. The subject was sex abuse . I wanted to know how I could
forgive my BIL for using me
> when I was a very young child to satisfy some of his sexual needs. At
that time, I thought that my
> BIL's behaviour had contributed to my developing in adult life a drink
problem. I was told that AA
> meetings were not an appropriate place to discuss such things because of
the likely adverse effect
> such a discussion might have on alcohlics who had experinenced what I had
but had only just started
> down the road to recovery. Well, at that point, I had only just started
down that road and I needed
> a satisfactory answer to my question in order to be able to continue my
journey. No-one seemed to
> understand this nor was anyone prepared to try to understand where I was
coming from. They seemd to
> be saying forget it. I now realise that what they might actually have
been saying was, "we can't
> deal with this and not one must know that we can't". You'll be pleased to
know that I have forgiven
> them for how they reacted :^)) You'll also be pleased to know that I no
longer make judgements
> about a whole organisation on the basis of how its individual members
behave.
>
> What subscribers to this NG have contributed to this general discussion on
forgiveness and
> forgetting, has helped me to understand how to deal with specific
incidents. I hope others have
> found it equally helpful.
>
> JB
>
>

[Blue Moon]

"Kai" <soberon@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message news:<beec4d$mrr$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> Moonraker wrote:
> > Very well put, Blue. Unfortunately, the one who needs it the most
> > replies to you with "zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz".
> >
> > I can't imagine sitting in an AA room with her......she'd last about
> > 30 seconds in my home group before one of about 6 different people
> > would tell her to shut the fuck up.
>
> That's cool, do you have a printed list of approved opinions on the meeting
> room wall? You ever heard of tolerance?
>
> Kai

What's the difference between tolerance and implied endorsement, even
appeasement?

Certainly in an AA meeting there's no list of "approved opinions".
However there's also no requirement to imply endorsement of any
nonsense. And when members behave boisterously, they can be asked to
be quiet.

[Steve C.]

If you love your enemies then you have no enemies.

Aloha nui loa,
Steve C.


"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:VqzOa.94403$fe.1866025@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
> > You'll also be pleased to know that I no longer make judgements
> > about a whole organisation on the basis of how its individual members
behave.
>
>
> NOT an easy task, congrats to you!
>
>
> >
> > What subscribers to this NG have contributed to this general discussion
on forgiveness and
> > forgetting, has helped me to understand how to deal with specific
incidents. I hope others have
> > found it equally helpful.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
>
> that is great news!
> your welcome.
> rosie
>
>

[rosie readandpost]

> If you love your enemies then you have no enemies.
>
> Aloha nui loa,
> Steve C.
>
>


amen!

[rosie readandpost]

> What's the difference between tolerance and implied endorsement, even
> appeasement?
>


you might want to make a trip "across the hall" to alanon.
you seem to NEED to control!

[Shawster]

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bedup5$hg5$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bcf35b018f1780c5d57becf00cb5ff48@free.teranew s.com...
> > On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:23:18 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> > <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> At this point, I am thinking that if we alcoholics can't forget the
part we think others may
> have
> > >> played in making us what we are, then it makes good sense to tackle
the problem we have from
> the
> > >> angle of forgiveness and not to worry unduly about whether or not we
should be trying to
> forget.
> > >>
> > >> Would any one care to comment ?
> >
> > I think maybe it's time to quit thinking and start doing :)
>
> <snip>
>
> >>> Blue Moon
>
> I can't do both ? :^))
>
> I think I've mentioned before that I used to go AA meetings. One of the
reasons why I stopped going
> was because of the reprimand I received for raising a "taboo" subject
during a discussion on
> forgiveness. The subject was sex abuse . I wanted to know how I could
forgive my BIL for using me
> when I was a very young child to satisfy some of his sexual needs. At
that time, I thought that my
> BIL's behaviour had contributed to my developing in adult life a drink
problem. I was told that AA
> meetings were not an appropriate place to discuss such things because of
the likely adverse effect
> such a discussion might have on alcohlics who had experinenced what I had
but had only just started
> down the road to recovery. Well, at that point, I had only just started
down that road and I needed
> a satisfactory answer to my question in order to be able to continue my
journey. No-one seemed to
> understand this nor was anyone prepared to try to understand where I was
coming from. They seemd to
> be saying forget it. I now realise that what they might actually have
been saying was, "we can't
> deal with this and not one must know that we can't". You'll be pleased to
know that I have forgiven
> them for how they reacted :^)) You'll also be pleased to know that I no
longer make judgements
> about a whole organisation on the basis of how its individual members
behave.
>
> What subscribers to this NG have contributed to this general discussion on
forgiveness and
> forgetting, has helped me to understand how to deal with specific
incidents. I hope others have
> found it equally helpful.
>
Pardon my ignorance... BIL? brother in law?

it wasn't your fault. And while drinking was an effective way to deal with
it, you really don't have that option anymore. I wold find a professional
to talk to.

> JB
>
>
>

[catsruleok]

"Shawster" <shawster@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:l9LOa.728$k85.58211@twister.tampabay.rr.com.. .
>
> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:bedup5$hg5$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:bcf35b018f1780c5d57becf00cb5ff48@free.teranew s.com...
> > > On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 01:23:18 GMT, "rosie readandpost"
> > > <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
<snip>
> >
> > I think I've mentioned before that I used to go AA meetings. One of the
> reasons why I stopped going
> > was because of the reprimand I received for raising a "taboo" subject
> during a discussion on
> > forgiveness. The subject was sex abuse . I wanted to know how I could
> forgive my BIL for using me
> > when I was a very young child to satisfy some of his sexual needs. At
> that time, I thought that my
> > BIL's behaviour had contributed to my developing in adult life a drink
> problem.

<snip>

JB

> Pardon my ignorance... BIL? brother in law?

Yes.

> it wasn't your fault. And while drinking was an effective way to deal with
> it, you really don't have that option anymore. I wold find a professional
> to talk to.
>
I did that almost ten years ago and as a result, what my BIL did no longer troubles me.

JB



>
>