Personal honesty [Archive] - Drug & Alcohol Rehab Forums & News

04-13-2004, 03:43 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:JeJec.5961$zj3.1514@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> I have begun treatment for a serious medical problem two weeks ago
and I am
> having problems with telling some of my sponsee's about the
seriousness of
> my situation. Personal honesty in recovery has been an important
issue to
> me while in recovery and yet I am still struggling to be open with a
few of
> them about this.
> Any constructive help would really appreciated.
> Sick as hell, baffled, and praying,
> Julie

Do you think that they *need* to know either what is wrong with you
or anything about the seriousness of your condition ? I ask this
because I wonder how such info might benefit them The BB says
something about not divulging info to those we care about if such info
might do them harm. If I was in your shoes I'd maybe be thinking
about giving details only if a Sponsee gave the impression that they
were interested.

JB .

rosie

04-13-2004, 07:46 AM

(((((((((((((((((julie))))))))))))))))))))))
do you know why you are not sharing?

1. some of us, don't know how to accept comfort from others.
2. some of us, try to act "more put together" than others.
3. some of us, are still ashamed/embarrassed about our diseases.
4. some of us, have a "brave front" and are afraid that letting down
our guard, will cause the "wall to break".

do any of these make sense to you?

i'm praying for you.......................
rosie

04-13-2004, 09:22 AM

"rosie" <sorry@toomanymalcontents.com> wrote in message
news:TqQec.91694$4B1.88623@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> (((((((((((((((((julie))))))))))))))))))))))
> do you know why you are not sharing?
>
> 1. some of us, don't know how to accept comfort from others.
> 2. some of us, try to act "more put together" than others.
> 3. some of us, are still ashamed/embarrassed about our diseases.
> 4. some of us, have a "brave front" and are afraid that letting down
> our guard, will cause the "wall to break".
>
> do any of these make sense to you?
>
> i'm praying for you.......................
> rosie

Rosie's post has reminded me about a lady who regularly talks about
her health problems and forthcoming major surgery at one of the
meetings I go to. She is proud of the fact that she has not made her
health problems an excuse for drinking again and has not kept it
secret that when she thinks about the surgery she needs she sometimes
feels afraid. I noticed that her sharing has led to others who have
either themselves undergone major surgery or who have had a loved one
who has done so sharing their experiences. Some who know this lady
well have offered to visit her in hospital. She seemed to appreciate
these offers. This lady has often said that she would find her life
far more difficult to cope with if she wasn't able to talk in our
meetings about whatever she thought important enough to talk about and
to afterwards feel that people there cared about her welfare.

The point I'm making is that if you need to share your health problems
sharing them with your Sponsees is not your only option.

JB

Blue Moon

04-13-2004, 11:00 AM

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:36:09 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>I have begun treatment for a serious medical problem two weeks ago and I am
>having problems with telling some of my sponsee's about the seriousness of
>my situation. Personal honesty in recovery has been an important issue to
>me while in recovery and yet I am still struggling to be open with a few of
>them about this.
>Any constructive help would really appreciated.

Perhaps they need to see that you're not perfect?

Perhaps you need them to see that you're not perfect?

One of the biggest things my sponsor (or my own Higher Power) did for
me was allow me to arrive at his home when he was in the midst of an
argument with his wife. It helped me realise that I was not so
different after all.

One of the most refreshing things I see/hear in AA meetings is when
someone is struggling with life whilst sober. They help me realise
that I'm not so different after all.

If all I had to compare my sobriety with was those who claim that life
after drinking is wonderful, I'd probably be drunk on the assumption
that I'm not alcoholic after all but simply an insane person who
drinks to try and feel better.

Is it relevant to their chances of achieving recovery? If so, I'd
suggest they have a right to know. But I generally don't disclose my
asthma because it's not relevant to alcoholism. My conscience is not
bothered by this non-disclosure. Your conscience seems to be saying
something.

--
Blue Moon

Blue Moon

04-13-2004, 11:03 AM

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:22:21 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>Rosie's post has reminded me about a lady who regularly talks about
>her health problems and forthcoming major surgery at one of the
>meetings I go to.

One of life's issues which people can talk about from time to time.
The potential danger is when a group gets distracted from its primary
purpose. Sometimes I walk out of an "AA" meeting wondering where I
can get to a "real" AA meeting ... you know, one where alcoholism
and/or its solution gets a mention.

--
Blue Moon

Julie

04-13-2004, 12:34 PM

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e607272647409f9240ac8bbf418e69d7@news.teranew s.com...
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:36:09 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I have begun treatment for a serious medical problem two weeks ago and I
am
> >having problems with telling some of my sponsee's about the seriousness
of
> >my situation. Personal honesty in recovery has been an important issue
to
> >me while in recovery and yet I am still struggling to be open with a few
of
> >them about this.
> >Any constructive help would really appreciated.
>
> Perhaps they need to see that you're not perfect?
>
> Perhaps you need them to see that you're not perfect?
>
> One of the biggest things my sponsor (or my own Higher Power) did for
> me was allow me to arrive at his home when he was in the midst of an
> argument with his wife. It helped me realise that I was not so
> different after all.
>
> One of the most refreshing things I see/hear in AA meetings is when
> someone is struggling with life whilst sober. They help me realise
> that I'm not so different after all.
>
> If all I had to compare my sobriety with was those who claim that life
> after drinking is wonderful, I'd probably be drunk on the assumption
> that I'm not alcoholic after all but simply an insane person who
> drinks to try and feel better.
>
> Is it relevant to their chances of achieving recovery? If so, I'd
> suggest they have a right to know. But I generally don't disclose my
> asthma because it's not relevant to alcoholism. My conscience is not
> bothered by this non-disclosure. Your conscience seems to be saying
> something.
> -- Blue Moon
>
Thanks Moon,
I need to share with all of you the nature of my illness so you can better
understand my situation. I was infected with Hepatitis C after a blood
transfusion in 1972 and started a 48 week treatment program to eliminate it
two weeks ago. The side effects are very serious and they have already
begun to effect my physical, emotional, and mental state.
Rosie wrote:
do you know why you are not sharing?

1. some of us, don't know how to accept comfort from others.
2. some of us, try to act "more put together" than others.
3. some of us, are still ashamed/embarrassed about our diseases.
4. some of us, have a "brave front" and are afraid that letting down
our guard, will cause the "wall to break".
Rosie

Of the nine sponsee's I have there are three of them that have less than 5
months in the program. From reading the posts so far I have realized that
the problem I'm having is about MY fear (as always) of not being there for
them, inability to continue the step work we have begun (from steps 2 to 4),
and the loss of fellowship that will certainly occur. These three know that
I have started treatment, but I have minimized the severity of the side
effects to them in hopes that I will be able to deal with them better as
time passes (they just get worse).
My other sponcees have been sober from a year to 15 years, several of them
are sponsoring people themselves, and they have already rallied around me in
support.
JB wrote:
Do you think that they *need* to know either what is wrong with you
or anything about the seriousness of your condition ? I ask this
because I wonder how such info might benefit them The BB says
something about not divulging info to those we care about if such info
might do them harm......
JB
Your talking about Step 8 and making amends to those we have harmed, but the
principle is just as valid. Would it hurt them to know? There's no real
way of telling, but I think they will feel even more vulnerable then they
already do. They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
All of you have been a great help, please keep the comments coming,
Julie

rosie

04-13-2004, 01:32 PM

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e882b8c1274328500d94f479685e087e@news.teranew s.com...
: On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 14:22:21 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com>
wrote:
:
: >Rosie's post has reminded me about a lady who regularly talks
about
: >her health problems and forthcoming major surgery at one of the
: >meetings I go to.
:
: One of life's issues which people can talk about from time to
time.
: The potential danger is when a group gets distracted from its
primary
: purpose.....................

learning HOW folks "work the program" with their everyday trials and
tribulations is what AA meetings are for, imo.
i don't go to meetings that have only saints!
;)

04-13-2004, 01:33 PM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
<snip>
They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.

Dear Julie,

The above remark made me think that you are attempting to control the
situation you find yourself in rather than leaving it to your HP to
deal with as he/she/it sees fit. Is it possible that you could make
life easier for yourself if you stopped trying to direct the show ?

Wishing you well.

JB

Blue Moon

04-13-2004, 02:16 PM

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:34:18 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Of the nine sponsee's I have there are three of them that have less than 5
>months in the program. From reading the posts so far I have realized that
>the problem I'm having is about MY fear (as always) of not being there for
>them

For me, part of Step 3 was about not allowing fear to dictate what I
do.

I can still too easily forget.

>inability to continue the step work we have begun (from steps 2 to 4),
>and the loss of fellowship that will certainly occur.

Sounds like projection. Do you really need that fellowship which you
fear losing?

>I have started treatment, but I have minimized the severity of the side
>effects to them in hopes that I will be able to deal with them better as
>time passes (they just get worse).

Step 3.

>My other sponcees have been sober from a year to 15 years, several of them
>are sponsoring people themselves, and they have already rallied around me in
>support.

Can one (or more) of them help out with those newcomers you're
concerned about? If they've worked the Steps, what would be the
problem? You can explain things without them needing to feel
rejection.

--
Blue Moon

neuro equipoise

04-13-2004, 02:16 PM

On - Tue, Apr 13, 2004, 4:34pm (EDT+4) Julie919@earthlink.net (Julie)
wrote:

> From reading the posts so far I have realized that
> the problem I'm having is about MY fear (as
> always) of not being there for them, inability to
> continue the step work we have begun (from steps
> 2 to 4), and the loss of fellowship that will
> certainly occur.

Fear is downshifting and concentrates on *lack*. It drains energy and
awakens ego-mind. Upshifting to thoughts of nurturing and healing
yourself concentrates on *abundance*, increases energy, and connects to
higher mind. You can't pour from an empty cup. You can't pour from
fear, because fear is about lack.

rosie

04-13-2004, 02:29 PM

: On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:34:18 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
: wrote:
:
: >Of the nine sponsee's I have there are three of them that have
less than 5
: >months in the program. From reading the posts so far I have
realized that
: >the problem I'm having is about MY fear (as always) of not being
there for
: >them
:
:

julie,
why not have your nine sponsee's work with each other a little bit?

remember, NONE of us is indispensable................

((((((((((((julie))))))))))))))))))))

neuro equipoise

04-13-2004, 04:24 PM

*
I Am.** I Shall.

"I shall seek the wisdom to nurture
my heart, mind, body, and soul
so that I may feel more centered
providing an energy reserve that allows
me to climb the mountains in my own life
providing an energy reserve that allows
me to love and support others
who are climbing a different mountain"
*
http://www.geocities.com/jolindy_98/i_am.html*

Robert McGregor

04-13-2004, 08:08 PM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.

Must be really tough on your "humility"
What an insecure HP you turned out to be!

Bob

Julie

04-13-2004, 11:07 PM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5hvak$1s4ce$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
>
> Must be really tough on your "humility"
> What an insecure HP you turned out to be!
>
> Bob
>
You know that isn't what I was talking about Robert.
Julie
>

Julie

04-13-2004, 11:09 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5h7uf$q0v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> <snip>
> They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
>
> Dear Julie,
>
> The above remark made me think that you are attempting to control the
> situation you find yourself in rather than leaving it to your HP to
> deal with as he/she/it sees fit. Is it possible that you could make
> life easier for yourself if you stopped trying to direct the show ?
> Wishing you well.
> JB
>
I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my end of
sponsor/sponcee deal.
Julie
>

Julie

04-13-2004, 11:21 PM

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4cb3e62726d6388309afc1a9ff5ba96e@news.teranew s.com...
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:34:18 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Of the nine sponsee's I have there are three of them that have less than
5
> >months in the program. From reading the posts so far I have realized
that
> >the problem I'm having is about MY fear (as always) of not being there
for
> >them
>
> For me, part of Step 3 was about not allowing fear to dictate what I
> do.
>
> I can still too easily forget.
>
> >inability to continue the step work we have begun (from steps 2 to 4),
> >and the loss of fellowship that will certainly occur.
>
> Sounds like projection. Do you really need that fellowship which you
> fear losing?
>
A major part of my recovery has always been to work with others. I have a
constant stream of visits and phone calls from people in the program and
this fellowship is what keeps me in touch with my higher power. The
newcomers I have worked with constantly challenge me to rethink my thoughts
and actions as we work the steps together. The humility I have learnded
from them keeps me right sized and able to maintain my contact with my
Higher Power.
Julie
>
> >I have started treatment, but I have minimized the severity of the side
> >effects to them in hopes that I will be able to deal with them better as
> >time passes (they just get worse).
>
> Step 3.
>
> >My other sponcees have been sober from a year to 15 years, several of
them
> >are sponsoring people themselves, and they have already rallied around me
in
> >support.
>
> Can one (or more) of them help out with those newcomers you're
> concerned about? If they've worked the Steps, what would be the
> problem? You can explain things without them needing to feel
> rejection.
>
We must be listening to the same higher power. I called three of my long
term sponcess today and asked them if they would consider working with these
three women. They were more than happy to help. I talked to the three
newcomers tonight and explained what was going on and they had no problem
with getting together with these other three women. It all turned out the
way HP wanted it to and in his time.
Many thanks,
Julie
PS
I cant beleive how freaking sick these meds are making me. Its just what it
takes to kill this kind of crap so its totally worth it.
> --
> Blue Moon

Julie

04-13-2004, 11:22 PM

"rosie" <sorry@toomanymalcontents.com> wrote in message
news:NjWec.91746$4B1.30794@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>
> : On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:34:18 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
> : wrote:
> :
> : >Of the nine sponsee's I have there are three of them that have
> less than 5
> : >months in the program. From reading the posts so far I have
> realized that
> : >the problem I'm having is about MY fear (as always) of not being
> there for
> : >them
> :
> :
>
> julie,
> why not have your nine sponsee's work with each other a little bit?
>
> remember, NONE of us is indispensable................
>
> ((((((((((((julie))))))))))))))))))))
>
Do you realize that you and Moon gave me this same suggestion? God does
work through us all.
Julie
>

Robert McGregor

04-14-2004, 12:27 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:FV1fc.6690$zj3.5548@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c5hvak$1s4ce$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> > > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
> >
> > Must be really tough on your "humility"
> > What an insecure HP you turned out to be!
> >
> > Bob
> >
> You know that isn't what I was talking about Robert.
> Julie
> >
>

That's why I pointed it out.

Bob

04-14-2004, 03:36 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:wX1fc.6693$zj3.3892@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5h7uf$q0v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > <snip>
> > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> > > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
> >
> > Dear Julie,
> >
> > The above remark made me think that you are attempting to control
the
> > situation you find yourself in rather than leaving it to your HP
to
> > deal with as he/she/it sees fit. Is it possible that you could
make
> > life easier for yourself if you stopped trying to direct the show
?
> > Wishing you well.
> > JB
> >
> I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my end
of
> sponsor/sponcee deal.
> Julie

Dear Julie,

The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do as
you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens to
you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough to
be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ? No.
In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
determine your future ?

JB

04-14-2004, 05:34 AM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5ipbe$uhg$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my end
> of
> > sponsor/sponcee deal.
> > Julie
>
> Dear Julie,
>
> The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
> things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do
as
> you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens to
> you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
> recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough to
> be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ? No.
> In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
> determine your future ?
>
> JB
>
PS: Having read your comments:

"I called three of my long term sponcess today and asked them if they
would consider working with these three women. They were more than
happy to help. I talked to the three newcomers tonight and explained
what was going on and they had no problem with getting together with
these other three women. It all turned out the way HP wanted it to
and in his time".

I desire no further info.

JB

Robert McGregor

04-14-2004, 05:56 AM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5j07o$mlu$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5ipbe$uhg$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my
end
> > of
> > > sponsor/sponcee deal.
> > > Julie
> >
> > Dear Julie,
> >
> > The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
> > things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do
> as
> > you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens
to
> > you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
> > recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough
to
> > be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ?
No.
> > In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
> > determine your future ?
> >
> > JB
> >
> PS: Having read your comments:
>
> "I called three of my long term sponcess today and asked them if
they
> would consider working with these three women. They were more than
> happy to help. I talked to the three newcomers tonight and
explained
> what was going on and they had no problem with getting together with
> these other three women. It all turned out the way HP wanted it to
> and in his time".
>
> I desire no further info.
>
> JB
>

JB, unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
ideology?

Bob

rosie

04-14-2004, 08:15 AM

: >
: > julie,
: > why not have your nine sponsee's work with each other a little
bit?
: >
: > remember, NONE of us is indispensable................
: >
: > ((((((((((((julie))))))))))))))))))))
: >
: Do you realize that you and Moon gave me this same suggestion?

but, of course!
(great minds think alike)
:)

:God does work through us all.
: Julie
: >

absolutely!
i am thrilled to read that you have enlisted the help and
understanding of your sponsees.
it will be another great learning tool for all!
your in my daily thoughts and prayers julie, hang in there!

rosie

Blue Moon

04-14-2004, 02:43 PM

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 03:21:07 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>A major part of my recovery has always been to work with others. I have a
>constant stream of visits and phone calls from people in the program and
>this fellowship is what keeps me in touch with my higher power. The
>newcomers I have worked with constantly challenge me to rethink my thoughts
>and actions as we work the steps together. The humility I have learnded
>from them keeps me right sized and able to maintain my contact with my
>Higher Power.

A greater form of humility can be to "let go". I am sometimes
surprised at the results of my own letting go.

>> Can one (or more) of them help out with those newcomers you're
>> concerned about? If they've worked the Steps, what would be the
>> problem? You can explain things without them needing to feel
>> rejection.
>>
>We must be listening to the same higher power. I called three of my long
>term sponcess today and asked them if they would consider working with these
>three women. They were more than happy to help. I talked to the three
>newcomers tonight and explained what was going on and they had no problem
>with getting together with these other three women. It all turned out the
>way HP wanted it to and in his time.

Sounds like a solution :)

>I cant beleive how freaking sick these meds are making me. Its just what it
>takes to kill this kind of crap so its totally worth it.

I won't patronisingly pretend to understand how the meds are making
you feel. However, I will say that things like the serenity prayer
can become very difficult for me when I'm feeling physical pain or
discomfort. However I do sometimes learn something when I get through
that pain.

Seems a bit like part of the "Lord of the Rings" story - you know
Something Bad is inside the mines, but trying to go around the problem
rather than go through it can turn out to be a killer. Meeting that
Bad Something head-on can turn out to be a learning exercise.

--
Blue Moon

04-14-2004, 02:51 PM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5j1p2$2833j$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> JB, unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
> mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
> ideology?

Dear Bob,

For some weeks, I've been thinking about the benefits I gain from
putting some trust in those whom I consider to be powers greater than
myself (ie Higher Powers)

I know that I am ill- equipped to deal with all that happens in my
life. Nowadays therefore, often when I feel out of my depth it makes
better sense to me to call in help rather than to ignore whatever's
giving me grief, try to fix it myself or find some way - perhaps a
harmful-for-me way - to escape from the situation.

Knowing myself to be no expert in AA's Twelve Step Programme - which
is as you know the recovery programme I've chosen to work - I think
I'd have done myself no favours to try working it without the aid of
the person who agreed last year to become my Sponsor. This person
appears to me to be different in some respects to some other Sponsors
I know. I base my judgement on my interpretation of comments by and
the behaviour of different Sponsors I've come to know a little about
within the past 10 months.

My Sponsor has said to me that as a human being they come without a
guarantee of being right 100% of the time and because of this I should
not expect to be able to find in them neither solutions to all the
life problems I take to them nor anything other than a personal
interpretation of AA's personal development programme and way of
living. This person deals with me in a manner which allows me to feel
that they do not consider themselves to be doing the job they're doing
for me for reasons other than to help me become better equipped to
deal with life and to strengthen their own sobriety.

My Sponsor is neither someone I met at one of the AA meetings I attend
nor someone who lives close to me. Therefore, this person and I have
occasionally chatted about me finding a Sponsor who's lives closer to
me. Whenever we've had such chats, my Sponsor has indicated that their
feelings would not be hurt if I chose to say goodbye to them. I'm
convinced they spoke the truth.

My Sponsor and I have also talked on several occasions about what they
call the "Inner Higher Power " (IHP) and I call my "Higher Power
without physical form" (HPWPF). I have no reason to doubt that my
Sponsor is convinced that our respective IHP/HPWPF is a power greater
than ourselves. If I've understood my Sponsor correctly, it appears
that Steps 3, 6, 7 and 11 encourage me to think about this Higher
Power and all that he/she/it can do for me. From experience, I know
that he/she/it has helped me in ways that no human has ever been able
to.

I cannot say whether or not I will ever not feel I might benefit from
having a human Sponsor. However, what I can and will say is that I
consider myself fortunate to have the Sponsor I have. I have no
difficulty in believing that it was my Higher Power without physical
form that brought us together for the purpose of enabling me to
acquire the tools I need to be able to better cope with life and in so
doing beat my alcoholism.

All the best.

JB

Robert McGregor

04-14-2004, 08:23 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5k0t7$l17$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c5j1p2$2833j$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > JB, unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
> > mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
> > ideology?
>
> Dear Bob,
>
> For some weeks, I've been thinking about the benefits I gain from
> putting some trust in those whom I consider to be powers greater
than
> myself (ie Higher Powers)
>
> I know that I am ill- equipped to deal with all that happens in my
> life. Nowadays therefore, often when I feel out of my depth it
makes
> better sense to me to call in help rather than to ignore whatever's
> giving me grief, try to fix it myself or find some way - perhaps a
> harmful-for-me way - to escape from the situation.
>
> Knowing myself to be no expert in AA's Twelve Step Programme - which
> is as you know the recovery programme I've chosen to work - I think
> I'd have done myself no favours to try working it without the aid of
> the person who agreed last year to become my Sponsor. This person
> appears to me to be different in some respects to some other
Sponsors
> I know. I base my judgement on my interpretation of comments by and
> the behaviour of different Sponsors I've come to know a little about
> within the past 10 months.
>
> My Sponsor has said to me that as a human being they come without a
> guarantee of being right 100% of the time and because of this I
should
> not expect to be able to find in them neither solutions to all the
> life problems I take to them nor anything other than a personal
> interpretation of AA's personal development programme and way of
> living. This person deals with me in a manner which allows me to
feel
> that they do not consider themselves to be doing the job they're
doing
> for me for reasons other than to help me become better equipped to
> deal with life and to strengthen their own sobriety.
>
> My Sponsor is neither someone I met at one of the AA meetings I
attend
> nor someone who lives close to me. Therefore, this person and I
have
> occasionally chatted about me finding a Sponsor who's lives closer
to
> me. Whenever we've had such chats, my Sponsor has indicated that
their
> feelings would not be hurt if I chose to say goodbye to them. I'm
> convinced they spoke the truth.
>
> My Sponsor and I have also talked on several occasions about what
they
> call the "Inner Higher Power " (IHP) and I call my "Higher Power
> without physical form" (HPWPF). I have no reason to doubt that my
> Sponsor is convinced that our respective IHP/HPWPF is a power
greater
> than ourselves. If I've understood my Sponsor correctly, it appears
> that Steps 3, 6, 7 and 11 encourage me to think about this Higher
> Power and all that he/she/it can do for me. From experience, I know
> that he/she/it has helped me in ways that no human has ever been
able
> to.
>
> I cannot say whether or not I will ever not feel I might benefit
from
> having a human Sponsor. However, what I can and will say is that I
> consider myself fortunate to have the Sponsor I have. I have no
> difficulty in believing that it was my Higher Power without physical
> form that brought us together for the purpose of enabling me to
> acquire the tools I need to be able to better cope with life and in
so
> doing beat my alcoholism.
>
> All the best.
>
> JB
>
JB, I seem to recall you berating Julie for posting an epistle, when a
yes or no would have sufficed. Do you now believe he/she can really
speak for a now even more mysterious and magical God/IHP/HPWPF/HP?

Bob;-)

Julie

04-14-2004, 09:47 PM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5k0t7$l17$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:c5j1p2$2833j$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > JB, unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
> > > mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
> > > ideology?
> >
> > Dear Bob,
> >
> > For some weeks, I've been thinking about the benefits I gain from
> > putting some trust in those whom I consider to be powers greater
> than
> > myself (ie Higher Powers)
> >
> > I know that I am ill- equipped to deal with all that happens in my
> > life. Nowadays therefore, often when I feel out of my depth it
> makes
> > better sense to me to call in help rather than to ignore whatever's
> > giving me grief, try to fix it myself or find some way - perhaps a
> > harmful-for-me way - to escape from the situation.
> >
> > Knowing myself to be no expert in AA's Twelve Step Programme - which
> > is as you know the recovery programme I've chosen to work - I think
> > I'd have done myself no favours to try working it without the aid of
> > the person who agreed last year to become my Sponsor. This person
> > appears to me to be different in some respects to some other
> Sponsors
> > I know. I base my judgement on my interpretation of comments by and
> > the behaviour of different Sponsors I've come to know a little about
> > within the past 10 months.
> >
> > My Sponsor has said to me that as a human being they come without a
> > guarantee of being right 100% of the time and because of this I
> should
> > not expect to be able to find in them neither solutions to all the
> > life problems I take to them nor anything other than a personal
> > interpretation of AA's personal development programme and way of
> > living. This person deals with me in a manner which allows me to
> feel
> > that they do not consider themselves to be doing the job they're
> doing
> > for me for reasons other than to help me become better equipped to
> > deal with life and to strengthen their own sobriety.
> >
> > My Sponsor is neither someone I met at one of the AA meetings I
> attend
> > nor someone who lives close to me. Therefore, this person and I
> have
> > occasionally chatted about me finding a Sponsor who's lives closer
> to
> > me. Whenever we've had such chats, my Sponsor has indicated that
> their
> > feelings would not be hurt if I chose to say goodbye to them. I'm
> > convinced they spoke the truth.
> >
> > My Sponsor and I have also talked on several occasions about what
> they
> > call the "Inner Higher Power " (IHP) and I call my "Higher Power
> > without physical form" (HPWPF). I have no reason to doubt that my
> > Sponsor is convinced that our respective IHP/HPWPF is a power
> greater
> > than ourselves. If I've understood my Sponsor correctly, it appears
> > that Steps 3, 6, 7 and 11 encourage me to think about this Higher
> > Power and all that he/she/it can do for me. From experience, I know
> > that he/she/it has helped me in ways that no human has ever been
> able
> > to.
> >
> > I cannot say whether or not I will ever not feel I might benefit
> from
> > having a human Sponsor. However, what I can and will say is that I
> > consider myself fortunate to have the Sponsor I have. I have no
> > difficulty in believing that it was my Higher Power without physical
> > form that brought us together for the purpose of enabling me to
> > acquire the tools I need to be able to better cope with life and in
> so
> > doing beat my alcoholism.
> >
> > All the best.
> >
> > JB
> >
> JB, I seem to recall you berating Julie for posting an epistle, when a
> yes or no would have sufficed. Do you now believe he/she can really
> speak for a now even more mysterious and magical God/IHP/HPWPF/HP?
>
> Bob;-)
>
JB simply shared the experience he has had in the program. A simple YES, or
NO can not express such experiences.
Julie

Julie

04-14-2004, 10:06 PM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5j1p2$2833j$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5j07o$mlu$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:c5ipbe$uhg$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > > I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my
> end
> > > of
> > > > sponsor/sponcee deal.
> > > > Julie
> > >
> > > Dear Julie,
> > >
> > > The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
> > > things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do
> > as
> > > you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens
> to
> > > you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
> > > recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough
> to
> > > be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ?
> No.
> > > In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
> > > determine your future ?
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > PS: Having read your comments:
> >
> > "I called three of my long term sponcess today and asked them if
> they
> > would consider working with these three women. They were more than
> > happy to help. I talked to the three newcomers tonight and
> explained
> > what was going on and they had no problem with getting together with
> > these other three women. It all turned out the way HP wanted it to
> > and in his time".
> >
> > I desire no further info.
> >
> > JB
> >
>
> JB, unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
> mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
> ideology?
> Bob
>
In my home group meeting there six people with a combined total of 104 years
of sobriety. They are all sponsors and they share what GOD (hp for you
spiritual babies) has shown to help them to stay sober. Are they Gods, NO,
do they act like Gods, NO, do they have an "ideology" (look up what the word
means morons), NO, is there anything magical or mystical about a the verbal
history they share concerning what has worked for them, NO.
Stop wasting your life searching for things to condemn others for and listen
for the answers available to help you with your own problems.
Julie

Julie

04-14-2004, 10:11 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5ipbe$uhg$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:wX1fc.6693$zj3.3892@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:c5h7uf$q0v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > <snip>
> > > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> > > > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
> > >
> > > Dear Julie,
> > >
> > > The above remark made me think that you are attempting to control
> the
> > > situation you find yourself in rather than leaving it to your HP
> to
> > > deal with as he/she/it sees fit. Is it possible that you could
> make
> > > life easier for yourself if you stopped trying to direct the show
> ?
> > > Wishing you well.
> > > JB
> > >
> > I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my end
> of
> > sponsor/sponcee deal.
> > Julie
>
> Dear Julie,
>
> The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
> things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do as
> you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens to
> you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
> recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough to
> be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ? No.
> In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
> determine your future ?
>
> JB
>
this all sounds nice and logical, BUT I care about these people. We share
our triumphs, failures, and losses with each other.
I make plans for my life that seem appropriate at the time. I do the next
right thing to that is asked of me, BUT, I DO NOT plan the outcome!
Faith is DEAD without works.
Julie

Blue Moon

04-14-2004, 10:22 PM

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 02:06:30 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>In my home group meeting there six people with a combined total of 104 years
>of sobriety. They are all sponsors and they share what GOD (hp for you
>spiritual babies) has shown to help them to stay sober. Are they Gods, NO,
>do they act like Gods, NO, do they have an "ideology" (look up what the word
>means morons), NO, is there anything magical or mystical about a the verbal
>history they share concerning what has worked for them, NO.
>Stop wasting your life searching for things to condemn others for and listen
>for the answers available to help you with your own problems.

Some of the most spiritually bankrupt people I know talk incessantly
of "God", trying desperately to convince themselves they have
something they haven't got. Some of the most spiritually strong
people I know refer to Higher Power stuff as being "Higher Power
stuff", and have no problem with whatever someone chooses to refer to
that stuff, the important thing being the question of whether it
works.

And if you really want to be heard, calling people "morons" could be
described as ... erm ... "moronic" :)

Interesting to read your own intolerant condemnation of others'
intolerant condemnations. I know because, drunk or sober, I'm an
expert at intolerant condemnation.

--
Blue Moon

Bobby L.

04-14-2004, 10:55 PM

Robert McGregor

04-14-2004, 11:05 PM

Julie

04-15-2004, 12:13 AM

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f15d7cb1f06dcddd5091eeb9b55f79dc@news.teranew s.com...
> On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 02:06:30 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE AGAIN
In my home group meeting there six people with a combined total of 104 years
of sobriety. They are all sponsors and they share what GOD (hp for you
spiritual babies) has shown to help them to stay sober. Are they Gods, NO,
do they act like Gods, NO, do they have an "ideology" (look up what the word
means morons), NO, is there anything magical or mystical about a the verbal
history they share concerning what has worked for them, NO.
Stop wasting your life searching for things to condemn others for and listen
for the answers available to help you with your own problems.
>
> Some of the most spiritually bankrupt people I know talk incessantly
> of "God", trying desperately to convince themselves they have
> something they haven't got.
>
I said nothing about the six people using HP, God Orderly Direction, or any
other word for GOD. I'm just fed up the all the petty name play people use
simply because they wont get over resentments they have with organized
religion. GOD is GOD and religion is just mankind's pitiful way of trying
to contact GOD. The PEOPLE I was referring to share their EXPERIENCE with
others in the group and they usually need to be called on to do that.
Julie
>
>Some of the most spiritually strong
> people I know refer to Higher Power stuff as being "Higher Power
> stuff", and have no problem with whatever someone chooses to refer to
> that stuff, the important thing being the question of whether it
> works.
>
> And if you really want to be heard, calling people "morons" could be
> described as ... erm ... "moronic" :)
>
Oh, they heard me all right and they know they have a problem with this or
they wouldn't continually feel they have to degrade AA or the people who
have gotten sober using it. MY COMMENTS TO THESE TWO WAS OUT OF FRUSTRATION
AND BEING TOTALLY FED UP WITH HEARING THERE SAME OLD SHIT THAT BENEFITS NO
ONE!
I read their posts and find some words of wisdom here and there, but this
crap they write about AA is unfounded and just bullshit.
Your right about one thing though! They are not morons, they are actually
just plain old ignorant assholes. Does that sound better to you?
Julie
>
> Interesting to read your own intolerant condemnation of others'
> intolerant condemnations. I know because, drunk or sober, I'm an
> expert at intolerant condemnation.
> Blue Moon
>
Bobs own words condemn him I only have to point out the LIES!
"....unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
ideology?"

Sorry to tell you this, but I am human and for "today" I have had just about
enough of Bob and his useless comments and hopeless look at life.
Julie
>
>

Julie

04-15-2004, 12:15 AM

"Bobby L." <BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:ZMmfc.17287$Yw5.8746@bignews4.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:FV1fc.6690$zj3.5548@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:c5hvak$1s4ce$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to share
> > > > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
> > >
> > > Must be really tough on your "humility"
> > > What an insecure HP you turned out to be!
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > You know that isn't what I was talking about Robert.
> > Julie
> > >
> >
> >
>
> Julie,
>
> All you get to be in charge of is your sobriety. If you trust your God,
> then leave the outcome to God.
> Once that step is taken, the rest is easier. 5 days, 5 months, 5 years --
> You are not why they are sober. You know this stuff, right?
>
> Bobby L
>
Read the posts after this one your commenting on Bobby L. This isnt what
the problem was for me.
Julie
>
>
>

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 12:24 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:XZnfc.7217$l75.2509@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> Bobs own words condemn him I only have to point out the LIES!
> "....unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
> mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
> ideology?"
>
"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D62fc.6702$zj3.4328@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> It all turned out the
> way HP wanted it to and in his time.

Julie

04-15-2004, 12:52 AM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5ku3d$2u5g6$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:qbmfc.7174$l75.3409@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:c5ipbe$uhg$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > news:wX1fc.6693$zj3.3892@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > >
> > > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:c5h7uf$q0v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > > > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > > > news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > > > <snip>
> > > > > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to
> share
> > > > > > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Julie,
> > > > >
> > > > > The above remark made me think that you are attempting to
> control
> > > the
> > > > > situation you find yourself in rather than leaving it to your
> HP
> > > to
> > > > > deal with as he/she/it sees fit. Is it possible that you
> could
> > > make
> > > > > life easier for yourself if you stopped trying to direct the
> show
> > > ?
> > > > > Wishing you well.
> > > > > JB
> > > > >
> > > > I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my
> end
> > > of
> > > > sponsor/sponcee deal.
> > > > Julie
> > >
> > > Dear Julie,
> > >
> > > The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
> > > things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do
> as
> > > you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens
> to
> > > you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
> > > recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough
> to
> > > be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ?
> No.
> > > In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
> > > determine your future ?
> > >
> > > JB
> > >
> > this all sounds nice and logical, BUT I care about these people. We
> share
> > our triumphs, failures, and losses with each other.
> > I make plans for my life that seem appropriate at the time. I do the
> next
> > right thing to that is asked of me, BUT, I DO NOT plan the outcome!
> > Faith is DEAD without works.
> > Julie
> >
>
> Faith that popping happy pills works, as long as pills are popped?
> http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar02/placebo.html
>
> Bob
>
No, faith that God will help us, and taking the next right steps to get the
help we need. This is Faith in Action.
Like your dark ages mentality about taking antidepressants is based on this
article? What crap!
Did you happen to notice that none of the drugs listed in this study are
categorized as being "happy pills" Bob? They are called anti-depressants.
They do nothing to make anyone happy - they only keep people from getting so
low that killing oneself seems like a good idea.
Julie
>

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 12:55 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:XZnfc.7217$l75.2509@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
I'm just fed up the all the petty name play people use
> simply because they wont get over resentments they have with
organized
> religion. GOD is GOD and religion is just mankind's pitiful way of
trying
> to contact GOD.

Do you imagine it may help your cause if you stopped the petty name
play yourself?

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:D62fc.6702$zj3.4328@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>>The humility I have learnded
>> from them keeps me right sized and able to maintain my contact with
my
>> Higher Power.

> > described as ... erm ... "moronic" :)
> >
> Oh, they heard me all right and they know they have a problem with
this or
> they wouldn't continually feel they have to degrade AA or the people
who
> have gotten sober using it. MY COMMENTS TO THESE TWO WAS OUT OF
FRUSTRATION
> AND BEING TOTALLY FED UP WITH HEARING THERE SAME OLD SHIT THAT
BENEFITS NO
> ONE!
> I read their posts and find some words of wisdom here and there, but
this
> crap they write about AA is unfounded and just bullshit.
> Your right about one thing though! They are not morons, they are
actually
> just plain old ignorant assholes. Does that sound better to you?
> Julie

"degraded AA or the people who have gotten sober using it"?????

"This crap *they* write about AA"???? "They"???????

You think shouting sanctifies your opinion?

Given you have not been here long enough to notice (amongst other
details you have not been here long enough to notice) that JB remains
an active AA member, seems that AA unity here (and other reality) is,
once again, subservient to the ego defence mechanisms of proselytising
AA "sponsors"!

Bob

Julie

04-15-2004, 01:06 AM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5l4h6$2uni5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:XZnfc.7217$l75.2509@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> I'm just fed up the all the petty name play people use
> > simply because they wont get over resentments they have with
> organized
> > religion. GOD is GOD and religion is just mankind's pitiful way of
> trying
> > to contact GOD.
>
> Do you imagine it may help your cause if you stopped the petty name
> play yourself?
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:D62fc.6702$zj3.4328@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >>The humility I have learnded
> >> from them keeps me right sized and able to maintain my contact with
> my
> >> Higher Power.
>
>
> > > described as ... erm ... "moronic" :)
> > >
> > Oh, they heard me all right and they know they have a problem with
> this or
> > they wouldn't continually feel they have to degrade AA or the people
> who
> > have gotten sober using it. MY COMMENTS TO THESE TWO WAS OUT OF
> FRUSTRATION
> > AND BEING TOTALLY FED UP WITH HEARING THERE SAME OLD SHIT THAT
> BENEFITS NO
> > ONE!
> > I read their posts and find some words of wisdom here and there, but
> this
> > crap they write about AA is unfounded and just bullshit.
> > Your right about one thing though! They are not morons, they are
> actually
> > just plain old ignorant assholes. Does that sound better to you?
> > Julie
>
>
>
> "degraded AA or the people who have gotten sober using it"?????
>
> "This crap *they* write about AA"???? "They"???????
>
> You think shouting sanctifies your opinion?
>
NO, ITS A WAY OF EXPRESSING MY EMOTION Bob!
Julie
>
> Given you have not been here long enough to notice (amongst other
> details you have not been here long enough to notice) that JB remains
> an active AA member, seems that AA unity here (and other reality) is,
> once again, subservient to the ego defence mechanisms of proselytising
> AA "sponsors"!
>
> Bob
>
You got me there Bob! I didnt mean my comments about you to included JB.
Sorry JB I'm just fed up with this crap about AA.
Now back to Bob:
Their is no "proselytising" (look up the work again Bob) of sponsors on AA!
Your continued comments about AA are bullshit yet again Bob. AA unity has
NOTHING to do with us disagreing with each other. We not only allow each
other to disagree, but encouraged to do so as a way to find the truth.
Since your not an AA member per your own comments, your concerning AA are
empty and VOID "boy."
Julie
>
>

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 01:26 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Iyofc.7241$l75.3818@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > Faith is DEAD without works.
> > > Julie
> > >
> >
> > Faith that popping happy pills works, as long as pills are popped?
> > http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar02/placebo.html
> >
> > Bob
> >
> No, faith that God will help us, and taking the next right steps to
get the
> help we need. This is Faith in Action.
> Like your dark ages mentality about taking antidepressants is based
on this
> article? What crap!
> Did you happen to notice that none of the drugs listed in this study
are
> categorized as being "happy pills" Bob? They are called
anti-depressants.
> They do nothing to make anyone happy - they only keep people from
getting so
> low that killing oneself seems like a good idea.
> Julie
> >

http://blank.org/link/?q=1082006647

"If people do feel better when drinking alcohol or smoking marijuana,
it is
because they feel better when their brain is impaired. Psychiatric
drugs are
no different. The people . . . may feel less of their emotional
suffering.
They may even reach a state of relative anesthesia. But to the degree
that
they feel better, it is because they are experiencing intoxication
with the
drugs." (p. 2)

http://blank.org/link/?q=1082006544

Antidepressants-Suicide Link
Harvard Psychiatrist: Studies Needed
The Associated Press
B O S T O N Dr. Jonathan O. Cole, a Harvard psychiatrist .... has
suggested a link between antidepressants and suicide, says drug
manufacturers and the federal government haven¹t adequately
investigated the problem.
In the decade since Cole and Harvard colleagues first reported on
early cases of extreme agitation among people taking antidepressants,
use of these drugs < called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,
or
SSRIs < has reached 84 million prescriptions a year, according to The
Boston Globe .
---
http://blank.org/link/?q=1082006434

Dr. Victoria Kusiak, North American medical director for Wyeth
Pharmaceuticals, said that in a study of Effexor XR's use against
major
depression, ... patients reported thoughts about suicide, versus none
in a comparison group getting a dummy pill.

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 01:53 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:rLofc.7254$l75.2113@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c5l4h6$2uni5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > Given you have not been here long enough to notice (amongst other
> > details you have not been here long enough to notice) that JB
remains
> > an active AA member, seems that AA unity here (and other reality)
is,
> > once again, subservient to the ego defence mechanisms of
proselytising
> > AA "sponsors"!
> >
> > Bob
> >
> You got me there Bob! I didnt mean my comments about you to
included JB.
> Sorry JB I'm just fed up with this crap about AA.
> Now back to Bob:
> Their is no "proselytising" (look up the work again Bob) of sponsors
on AA!

http://blank.org/link/?q=1082007774
There is plenty of proselytising, or, if you are blinkered by Usan
spelling, proselytizing,
by AA sponsors, and would be sponsors, right here in this newsgroup!

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=proselytizing
"To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse
one's doctrine"

Bob

04-15-2004, 04:13 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4Rlfc.7152$l75.6938@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...

> JB simply shared the experience he has had in the program.

<snip>

Julie,

Do you also doubt that I am a woman ? :^)

JB

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 04:19 AM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5lfr3$c6h$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:4Rlfc.7152$l75.6938@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > JB simply shared the experience he has had in the program.
>
> <snip>
>
> Julie,
>
> Do you also doubt that I am a woman ? :^)
>
> JB

He/she's obviously throwing stones; from a glass house.

Bob;-)

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 04:26 AM

04-15-2004, 04:55 AM

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 06:01 AM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5lib4$84k$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > news:c5k0t7$l17$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
message
> > > news:c5j1p2$2833j$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > > > JB, unless you really believe he/she can speak for that
magical,
> > > > mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor
cult
> > > > ideology?
> > >
> > > Dear Bob,
> > >
> > > For some weeks, I've been thinking about the benefits I gain
from
> > > putting some trust in those whom I consider to be powers greater
> > than
> > > myself (ie Higher Powers)
>
> <snip long post>
>
> > > JB
> > >
> > JB, I seem to recall you berating Julie for posting an epistle,
when
> a
> > yes or no would have sufficed. Do you now believe he/she can
really
> > speak for a now even more mysterious and magical God/IHP/HPWPF/HP?
> >
> >
> > Bob;-)
> >
> Dear Bob,
>
> Julie has said that the word "God" means to her "Good Orderly
> Direction". Such words do not make me think that all who work on
this
> basis have to ever have the "spiritual experience" that replaces
> "self-will" and also changes one's outlook on life ..
>
> All the best
>

Jeez, JB. this agnostic much prefers the Big Book appendix as a more
realistic representation of the psychic change deemed essential for
initiating recovery, but where on earth did you get the idea that a
"spiritual experience" of the 12 step variety replaces self will? I
would be astounded if you can support that notion from any AA
literature.

Arguably, the initial and essential "spiritual experience" is the
acquisition of sufficient hope to go to whatever lengths are necessary
in order to recover from the obsession and compulsion associated with
otherwise hopeless alcoholism. Folk who argue otherwise have never, in
my (close;-) observation, lived up to any claimed notions of spiritual
superiority; or, they merely argue on the basis of expectations, as
distinct from experience.

My experience is that my own psychic change gave me the incentive to
listen for the "still small voice within," that had been muted for far
too long by my lust for instant self gratification, as it ran riot.
Now, as a result of the steps, that "still small voice" is again
audible; in direct proportion to my propensity to initiate, and
sustain, a "cleaner house."

Must add that despite our continued personal shit fight, I have seen
no indication in *all* Julie's posts that he/she has missed out on the
AA "spiritual experience."

HTH

Bob.

04-15-2004, 06:07 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:qbmfc.7174$l75.3409@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5ipbe$uhg$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:wX1fc.6693$zj3.3892@newsread3.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > >
> > > "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> > > news:c5h7uf$q0v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > > > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > > > news:eEUec.5980$l75.1508@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > > <snip>
> > > > They have all taken a great risk in making a decision to
share
> > > > > their lives with me and I just do NOT want to let them down.
> > > >
> > > > Dear Julie,
> > > >
> > > > The above remark made me think that you are attempting to
control
> > the
> > > > situation you find yourself in rather than leaving it to your
HP
> > to
> > > > deal with as he/she/it sees fit. Is it possible that you
could
> > make
> > > > life easier for yourself if you stopped trying to direct the
show
> > ?
> > > > Wishing you well.
> > > > JB
> > > >
> > > I don't want to control the show, I just want to live up to my
end
> > of
> > > sponsor/sponcee deal.
> > > Julie
> >
> > Dear Julie,
> >
> > The point I was trying to make is that sometimes we want from life
> > things that we not supposed to have. Whatever you are able to do
as
> > you recover from your illness will be determined by what happens
to
> > you during your recovery. Can you control your life during your
> > recovery so that it's possible for you to always feel well enough
to
> > be able to cope with everything that you would normally do ?
No.
> > In these circumstances, isn't your only option to let your HP
> > determine your future ?
> >
> > JB
> >
> this all sounds nice and logical, BUT I care about these people. We
share
> our triumphs, failures, and losses with each other.

Do you think you are only person who cares about anyone other than
themselves ?

I remember arguing last year with the ambulance men to whom I'd put in
an emergency call when I could no longer cope with severe stomach
pains that they couldn't take me to hospital because my severely
disabled husband needed me at home to look after him. Fortunately,
this conversation took place in front of a very dear friend of my
husband and me. Without hesitation, she offered to look after my
husband.

When I got to the hospital, I immediately told the doctor and nurses
about my home life and that for this reason they couldn't keep me more
than a few hours. At that time no-one knew whether or not I had a
condition that might require an emergency operation followed by time
in hospital and maybe a period of recuperation at home during which
time I was to not deal with the physical aspects of caring for my
husband. Maybe you can imagine my relief when I heard several hours
later that I could go home and carry on as normal.

The friend who had been looking after my husband came to collect me
and during the drive home she told me how he had been until he heard
that I was coming home. He had been extremely worried not only for me
but also for himself. Being a tetraplegic who's confined to a
wheelchair and who needs to use assisted breathing apparatus
twenty-four hours a day, he's not able to manage as maybe you but
certainly I can by ourselves. He feared he might not be able to find
someone to look after him at home and consequently having to go into
residential care.

As a result of what I've described, my husband and I decided to
immediately take action to set ourselves up with proper emergency
cover. In so doing, we were acting upon a good idea that we'd had
years ago and only ever kept at the "good idea" level.

What we went through was something neither of us would have wished to
happened. However, IMO, we learnt valuable lessons from it which
have led to changes for the better being made.

Jule, maybe one day, you'll come to believe that from what you're
experiencing now you've learnt valuable lessons which have enabled you
to changed for the better.

Yours

JB

rosie

04-15-2004, 08:18 AM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:G6mfc.7169$l75.743@newsread2.news.atl.earthli nk.net...
:......................... They are all sponsors and they share
what GOD (hp for you
: spiritual babies)

hey...............i 'resemble' that remark!
;)

rosie

04-15-2004, 08:20 AM

"Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f15d7cb1f06dcddd5091eeb9b55f79dc@news.teranew s.com...

:
: Some of the most spiritually bankrupt people I know talk
incessantly
: of "God", trying desperately to convince themselves they have
: something they haven't got.

AMEN BROTHER MOON............................AMEN!

Robert McGregor

04-15-2004, 09:20 AM

"rosie" <sorry@toomanymalcontents.com> wrote in message
news:16vfc.96698$4B1.32887@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> "Blue Moon" <mfoco@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f15d7cb1f06dcddd5091eeb9b55f79dc@news.teranew s.com...
>
> :
> : Some of the most spiritually bankrupt people I know talk
> incessantly
> : of "God", trying desperately to convince themselves they have
> : something they haven't got.
>
>
> AMEN BROTHER MOON............................AMEN!
>

In your case, I am sure we can include amongst the bankrupt those self
righteous enough to repeatedly forge AA publications, merely to delete
God. http://makeashorterlink.com/?I31021808

Bob

neuro equipoise

04-15-2004, 09:34 AM

Everyone keep in mind that Julie is undergoing powerful treatments for a
deadly disease, and that in the first few weeks, these treatments alter
a person's mood chemistry and increase irritability; in addition to
other serious side-effects.

Stress just increases the side-effects and lowers the immune system.
The most important battle for Julie right now is against the deadly Hep
C virus.

rosie

04-15-2004, 09:56 AM

good advise neuro!

--
rosie

http://airamericaradio.com/www/pub/globalDefault.htm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4709863/
http://makeashorterlink.com/?F35514208

"neuro equipoise" <NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:5707-407E8F59-170@storefull-3276.bay.webtv.net...
:
: Everyone keep in mind that Julie is undergoing powerful treatments
for a
: deadly disease, and that in the first few weeks, these treatments
alter
: a person's mood chemistry and increase irritability; in addition
to
: other serious side-effects.
:
: Stress just increases the side-effects and lowers the immune
system.
: The most important battle for Julie right now is against the
deadly Hep
: C virus.
:

04-15-2004, 11:52 AM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5lmfq$2vctg$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5lib4$84k$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...

> > Julie has said that the word "God" means to her "Good Orderly
> > Direction". Such words do not make me think that all who work on
> this
> > basis have to ever have the "spiritual experience" that replaces
> > "self-will" and also changes one's outlook on life ..
> >
> > All the best
> >
>
> Jeez, JB. this agnostic much prefers the Big Book appendix as a more
> realistic representation of the psychic change deemed essential for
> initiating recovery, but where on earth did you get the idea that a
> "spiritual experience" of the 12 step variety replaces self will? I
> would be astounded if you can support that notion from any AA
> literature.

What was in my mind when I wrote what you've commented on is the BB's
idea that the alcoholic likes to control everyone and everything that
happens in his/her life. It seems to me that the "spiritual
experience" is about not operating on this basis.

<snip>

> My experience is that my own psychic change gave me the incentive to
> listen for the "still small voice within," that had been muted for
far
> too long by my lust for instant self gratification, as it ran riot.

Arguably, some of your posts on this and ARAA, give the impression
that you retain a "lust for instant self gratification" :^).

..> Now, as a result of the steps, that "still small voice" is again
> audible; in direct proportion to my propensity to initiate, and
> sustain, a "cleaner house."

IMO, this is a very important point to which I'd like to add that, IMO
no house will be properly cleaned unless the work to be done starts
with and continues to be done with "rigorous honesty".

> Must add that despite our continued personal shit fight, I have seen
> no indication in *all* Julie's posts that he/she has missed out on
the
> AA "spiritual experience."

I don't disagree.

> HTH
>
It has. Thank you.

JB

Julie

04-15-2004, 02:15 PM

Your continual refusal to even read the basic information about such drugs
and then repeating your misguided 1950's thoughts about psychiatric
medications is unbelievable.
http://www.bankhead.net/BoozeAndDrugs/classification.html
Alcohol IS classified as a DEPRESSANT which includes other drugs such as
VALIUM, XANAX, LIBRIUM, SECONAL, and many other similar acting drugs.
Marijuana gets you high and its classified as HALLUCINOGEN Bob!
Anti-depressants DO NOT get you HIGH or cause "relative anesthesia" as you
seem to think they will.
No one said you had to accept modern science or use these drugs Bob, but
your bigotry and abuse of those who do is unacceptable.
Julie
"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5l6c8$2qn52$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:Iyofc.7241$l75.3818@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > > > Faith is DEAD without works.
> > > > Julie
> > > >
> > >
> > > Faith that popping happy pills works, as long as pills are popped?
> > > http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar02/placebo.html
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > No, faith that God will help us, and taking the next right steps to
> get the
> > help we need. This is Faith in Action.
> > Like your dark ages mentality about taking antidepressants is based
> on this
> > article? What crap!
> > Did you happen to notice that none of the drugs listed in this study
> are
> > categorized as being "happy pills" Bob? They are called
> anti-depressants.
> > They do nothing to make anyone happy - they only keep people from
> getting so
> > low that killing oneself seems like a good idea.
> > Julie
> > >
>
> http://blank.org/link/?q=1082006647
>
> "If people do feel better when drinking alcohol or smoking marijuana,
> it is
> because they feel better when their brain is impaired. Psychiatric
> drugs are
> no different. The people . . . may feel less of their emotional
> suffering.
> They may even reach a state of relative anesthesia. But to the degree
> that
> they feel better, it is because they are experiencing intoxication
> with the
> drugs." (p. 2)
>
>
Your continual refusal to even read the basic information about such drugs
and then repeating your misguided 1950's thoughts about psychiatric
medications is unbelievable.
http://www.bankhead.net/BoozeAndDrugs/classification.html
Alcohol IS classified as a DEPRESSANT which includes other drugs such as
VALIUM, XANAX, LIBRIUM, SECONAL, and many other similar acting drugs.
Marijuana gets you high and its classified as HALLUCINOGEN Bob!
Anti-depressants DO NOT get you HIGH or cause "relative anesthesia" as you
seem to think they will.
No one said you had to accept modern science or use these drugs Bob, but
your bigotry and abuse of those who do is unacceptable.
Julie
>
>

> http://blank.org/link/?q=1082006544
>
> Antidepressants-Suicide Link
> Harvard Psychiatrist: Studies Needed
> The Associated Press
> B O S T O N Dr. Jonathan O. Cole, a Harvard psychiatrist .... has
> suggested a link between antidepressants and suicide, says drug
> manufacturers and the federal government haven¹t adequately
> investigated the problem.
> In the decade since Cole and Harvard colleagues first reported on
> early cases of extreme agitation among people taking antidepressants,
> use of these drugs < called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors,
> or
> SSRIs < has reached 84 million prescriptions a year, according to The
> Boston Globe .
> ---
> http://blank.org/link/?q=1082006434
>
> Dr. Victoria Kusiak, North American medical director for Wyeth
> Pharmaceuticals, said that in a study of Effexor XR's use against
> major
> depression, ... patients reported thoughts about suicide, versus none
> in a comparison group getting a dummy pill.
>
>
>

Julie

04-15-2004, 03:02 PM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5l7t2$2sdlp$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:rLofc.7254$l75.2113@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:c5l4h6$2uni5$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > > Given you have not been here long enough to notice (amongst other
> > > details you have not been here long enough to notice) that JB
> remains
> > > an active AA member, seems that AA unity here (and other reality)
> is,
> > > once again, subservient to the ego defence mechanisms of
> proselytising
> > > AA "sponsors"!
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > You got me there Bob! I didnt mean my comments about you to
> included JB.
> > Sorry JB I'm just fed up with this crap about AA.
> > Now back to Bob:
> > Their is no "proselytising" (look up the work again Bob) of sponsors
> on AA!
>
>
> http://blank.org/link/?q=1082007774
> There is plenty of proselytising, or, if you are blinkered by Usan
> spelling, proselytizing,
> by AA sponsors, and would be sponsors, right here in this newsgroup!
>
First of all:
NO ONE has been given the authority to represent AA's. The posts you refer
to are people who are sharing their experiences with having a sponsor Bob.
No one is "recruiting" anyone or even you for that matter Bob. AA is not on
television attempting to find new recruits, AA does not go door to door
trying to find people they can drag away from other recovery programs, AA
members increase when alcoholics come to meeting and hear something that
they can relate to and/or want. We keep no records of attendance, have no
religious practices, holy days, communion, baptisms, or holy sites, thing
that must or must not be worn.
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=proselytizing
> "To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse
> one's doctrine"
> Bob
>
Induced? Its about attraction Bob! The only inducement I have seen at AA
is the freakin pain that alcohol causes alcoholics to suffer. AA did not
cause this pain, but we have found ways to stop drinking and to free our
selves of the things that cause us to be miserable. I would like to ask the
News Group if anyone ever attended an AA meeting because they had heard what
a great social events they have? Great food? Good movies? Great deals on
new appliances? The dating services they provided? The terrific door
prizes?
People come to AA because they want to stop drinking and if they hear
something that helps them or they find something they want we simply share
our OWN EXPERIENCES as to how we did it and they come back if they want to.
That's all there is to it Bob. Sorry, its just not the conspiracy that your
mind has made it into.
Julie
>
>

04-15-2004, 03:03 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5mao5$odt$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:c5lmfq$2vctg$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
<snip>

Bob wrote:

> > Must add that despite our continued personal shit fight, I have
seen
> > no indication in *all* Julie's posts that he/she has missed out on
> the
> > AA "spiritual experience."
>
> I don't disagree.
>
<snip>

Bob,

It's important to me to expand on what I previously wrote. It's
important because I've just been listening to Joe and Charlie's views
on "self- will" in the section of the tape that deal with Steps 6 and
7 and what they said made me think more about what were you were
saying about "cleaning house" and the "spiritual experience". I'm
thinking that the thinking I've been doing has enabled me to acquire a
better understanding of part of what it is I'm trying to achieve by
working AA's 12 Steps.

Joe and Charlie say that self-will manifests itself through acts of
selfishness, dishonesty and inconsiderate actions; self-seeking; fear
and resentments; guilt and remorse. Characteristics which are not
manifestations of self-will include love, tolerance, patience,
goodwill, faith and courage. AA's programme aims g

Your post and Joe's and Charlie's comments have led to me thinking
that when you said: "I have seen no indication in *all* Julie's posts
that he/she has missed out on the AA "spiritual experience." you had
in mind, what Joe and Charlie were talking about. I was not. Now,
if I was to say that I did not disagree with your comment, I would be.

Yours

JB

Julie

04-15-2004, 03:05 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5lfr3$c6h$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:4Rlfc.7152$l75.6938@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> >
> > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> > JB simply shared the experience he has had in the program.
>
> <snip>
>
> Julie,
>
> Do you also doubt that I am a woman ? :^)
>
> JB
>
I never even thought of what your or anyone else's gender is here actually.
What does it matter?
Julie

Julie

04-15-2004, 03:07 PM

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:c5lgev$2ts7o$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5lfr3$c6h$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:4Rlfc.7152$l75.6938@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > >
> > > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> > > news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > > JB simply shared the experience he has had in the program.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Julie,
> >
> > Do you also doubt that I am a woman ? :^)
> >
> > JB
>
> He/she's obviously throwing stones; from a glass house.
>
> Bob;-)
>
Sorry, your wrong again Bob. I just made a mistake about this. No conspiracy
was evolved.
Julie

04-15-2004, 03:10 PM

"JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:c5mm08$5dp$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
<snip>

Ooops. "AA's programme aims g", should have been:

"I know you know that AA's programme encourages the replacement of
"self-will characteristics"with non-self-will characteristics".

JB

Julie

04-15-2004, 03:14 PM

Blue Moon

04-15-2004, 03:17 PM

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:52:34 +0100, "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote:

>What was in my mind when I wrote what you've commented on is the BB's
>idea that the alcoholic likes to control everyone and everything that
>happens in his/her life. It seems to me that the "spiritual
>experience" is about not operating on this basis.

It is entirely possible to have a "spiritual experience" and still die
as the result of subsequent acts of will based on self. My own
experience was enough to get me started on the actions I needed to
take, but by itself it certainly wasn't enough to keep me sober, let
alone bring me sanity.

I can feel spiritually strong one day, and feel issues which are
really based around self-will the next. It seems to me that the
spiritual stuff is akin to food or exercise - the food I ate yesterday
was enough to sustain me yesterday, it's not enough to sustain me
today as well.

One risk that those who've been doing this stuff a while can face is
"I feel better, so don't need to do this stuff any more". That's like
saying "I feel well-fed, so don't need to eat any more" or "I feel
fit, so don't need to exercise any more". I find it much harder to
get back on a bicycle after a few months or years of not cycling.

Another potential issue is balance. Avoiding life through fear is not
spiritual even if that avoidance is done in church, AA meetings or
sitting at home alone. That's why a count of time sober or meetings
attended each week is really no indicator of anything. To me, anyone
regularly taking in 14 meetings a week after years of non-drinking is
more a warning sign of someone to avoid... I don't go to an active
overeater to learn how to eat healthily.

--
Blue Moon

04-15-2004, 03:26 PM

"Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:12Bfc.7725$l75.2517@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
>
> "JB" <JBCatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
> news:c5lfr3$c6h$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:4Rlfc.7152$l75.6938@newsread2.news.atl.earthl ink.net...
> > >
> > > "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in
message
> > > news:c5kkin$2ok3g$1@ID-49289.news.uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > > JB simply shared the experience he has had in the program.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Julie,
> >
> > Do you also doubt that I am a woman ? :^)
> >
> > JB
> >
> I never even thought of what your or anyone else's gender is here
actually.
> What does it matter?
> Julie

Do you mind being called something you are not ?

(From: Julie (Julie919@earthlink.net) 14th April 2004)

(In response to Bob McG saying: to Julie

>"A transvestite living in the problem while waffling on about
imagined
> seriously flawed personality in others??????
> http://blank.org/link/?q=1081995186

(Julie wrote:)

"Good job Bob! You find yourself backed into a corner concerning what
you
have said and then seek some childish way to defend yourself using
slander
and bigotry. Yes, you managed to find something I wrote five years
ago and
I wont deny it. There's plenty more for you to dig up if you want,
but the
TRUTH is Bob, I wasn't a transvestite as you attempted to categorize
me and
never will be".

------------

JB

Blue Moon

04-15-2004, 03:28 PM

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 09:34:17 -0400, NeuroEquipoise@webtv.net (neuro
equipoise) wrote:

>Everyone keep in mind that Julie is undergoing powerful treatments for a
>deadly disease, and that in the first few weeks, these treatments alter
>a person's mood chemistry and increase irritability; in addition to
>other serious side-effects.

Indeed. However, Julie is working another program for an equally
life-threatening condition, a program which prescribes active work
with other alcoholics on a continuing basis. She has been advised
here to disregard her interpretation of that program. It's perhaps
not surprising if fear is a result. For some, telling them to remove
their sponsees can be like telling them to remove a life support
system whilst they're still plugged into it.

Personally, I don't put such reliance on sponsees, but I've seen it
happen and I've seen unhealthy co-dependent consequences as a result.

--
Blue Moon

Blue Moon

04-15-2004, 03:36 PM

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:55:25 -0400, "Bobby L."
<BobbyL2000nospam@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>All you get to be in charge of is your sobriety.

Perhaps not even that. "The alcoholic at certain times has no
effective mental defense against the first drink."

I am in charge of certain actions. Sobriety is the result of those
actions.

>If you trust your God, then leave the outcome to God.

Indeed.

--
Blue Moon

Blue Moon

04-15-2004, 03:57 PM

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 04:13:43 GMT, "Julie" <Julie919@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE AGAIN

I can do that without being shouted at. I think I reached the same
conclusions.

>I said nothing about the six people using HP, God Orderly Direction, or any
>other word for GOD.

You referred to those who refer to their "hp" as being spiritual
babies. I was reflecting my own experience that this seems untrue.

>GOD is GOD and religion is just mankind's pitiful way of trying
>to contact GOD.

I'm of the mind that religion (specifically, "organised religion") is
mankind's pitiful way of trying to control mankind.

GOD is GOD in your mind. In someone else's mind it can be HP, Buddha,
Allah, Jehovah, the Wiccan One, Tao or simply inner spirit. What it's
called doesn't really matter... that was my point.

>Oh, they heard me all right and they know they have a problem with this or
>they wouldn't continually feel they have to degrade AA or the people who
>have gotten sober using it. MY COMMENTS TO THESE TWO WAS OUT OF FRUSTRATION
> AND BEING TOTALLY FED UP WITH HEARING THERE SAME OLD SHIT THAT BENEFITS NO
>ONE!

Would you agree that you are having a problem with others here at this
time? That would make it your problem.

>Your right about one thing though! They are not morons, they are actually
>just plain old ignorant assholes. Does that sound better to you?

It's perhaps a more honest assessment of your perception. But I would
still suggest that's your perception, not necessarily correct.

>Bobs own words condemn him I only have to point out the LIES!
>"....unless you really believe he/she can speak for that magical,
>mysterious, "HP," aren't you, too, sucked in by the sponsor cult
>ideology?"

It's an expression of his own opinion. That doesn't necessarily mean
it's a correct assessment, but it doesn't make it a lie either.

>Sorry to tell you this, but I am human and for "today" I have had just about
>enough of Bob and his useless comments and hopeless look at life.

Understandable. I suggest some positive action which you can take.
Use a killfile until you feel better able to deal with what you feel
are negative vibes. I would also suggest not using that killfile to
try leveraging personal empowerment over other people.

--
Blue Moon