On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:37:20 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> > According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous, alcoholics
>> > are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in overcoming
>> > alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher power can restore
>> > them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over to God, admit to God the
>> > exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to remove their shortcomings, and
>> > seek through prayer and meditation to improve their conscious contact
>> > with God.
>> >
>> > If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
>> > Steps?
>> >
>> > If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
>> > this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
>> > freedom of religion?
>>
>> If you are still discussing your friend's wife, you hadn't mentioned
>> before that she was attending court ordered AA. I suggest that she find
>> a sponsor who is also an atheist or at least agnostic.
>
>She is not an atheist. I was merely asking how atheists would handle the AA
>admonition to "turn to a higher power", since they don't believe in higher
>powers!
>

A higher power or a greater power doesn't have to be a *god*.

>She was indeed court ordered to go to at least 2 AA meetings a week after
>biting her husband's hand. However, she has begun going to AA meetings daily.

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in
news:47A821F5.94384EA4@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us:

>
>
> Jamffer wrote:
>
>> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
>> news:47A6EE9A.6A863357@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>> > According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous,
>> > alcoholics are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in
>> > overcoming alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher
>> > power can restore them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over
>> > to God, admit to God the exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to
>> > remove their shortcomings, and seek through prayer and meditation
>> > to improve their conscious contact with God.
>> >
>> > If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
>> > Steps?
>> >
>> > If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings,
>> > would this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment
>> > right to freedom of religion?
>>
>> You need to do what all Christians do.
>>
>> You need to (pretend) that a God exists.
>>
>> It doesn't matter whether God is or isn't, just (try to believe) that
>> there is a God, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
>>
>> If you are cured of alcoholism and God wasn't real then who cares if
>> God is imaginary?
>
> If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to
> cure your alcoholism?

I am reminded of the story of Niels Bohr, who kept a good-luck charm, a
horseshoe, nailed over the door of his summer house. When one of his
guests teased him saying, "Niels, you're one of the foremost physicists
and rationalists of the century. Do you really believe in good luck
charms?" Bohr replied, "Of course, not. But I understand that it works
whether you believe it or not."

The point of turning oneself over to a "higher power" in aa is to realize
that ordinary rational thought, will power, and human planning are
impotent in the face of the compulsion to drink. In aa, an alcoholic
turns to some force outside himself: the God, a god, the innate good of
nature, the collective protection of those who love him. Whatever. If
*self*-reliance worked, the drinking alcoholic wouldn't still be
drinking.

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A82040.6FDC1F73@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> > According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous, alcoholics
>> > are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in overcoming
>> > alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher power can restore
>> > them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over to God, admit to God
>> > the
>> > exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to remove their shortcomings, and
>> > seek through prayer and meditation to improve their conscious contact
>> > with God.
>> >
>> > If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
>> > Steps?
>> >
>> > If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
>> > this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
>> > freedom of religion?
>>
>> If you are still discussing your friend's wife, you hadn't mentioned
>> before that she was attending court ordered AA. I suggest that she find
>> a sponsor who is also an atheist or at least agnostic.
>
> She is not an atheist. I was merely asking how atheists would handle the
> AA
> admonition to "turn to a higher power", since they don't believe in higher
> powers!
>
> She was indeed court ordered to go to at least 2 AA meetings a week after
> biting her husband's hand. However, she has begun going to AA meetings
> daily.
>

Huh! Talk about "biting the hand that feeds you"!

Deadrat wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in
> news:47A821F5.94384EA4@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us:
>
> >
> >
> > Jamffer wrote:
> >
> >> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> >> news:47A6EE9A.6A863357@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >> > According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous,
> >> > alcoholics are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in
> >> > overcoming alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher
> >> > power can restore them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over
> >> > to God, admit to God the exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to
> >> > remove their shortcomings, and seek through prayer and meditation
> >> > to improve their conscious contact with God.
> >> >
> >> > If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
> >> > Steps?
> >> >
> >> > If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings,
> >> > would this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment
> >> > right to freedom of religion?
> >>
> >> You need to do what all Christians do.
> >>
> >> You need to (pretend) that a God exists.
> >>
> >> It doesn't matter whether God is or isn't, just (try to believe) that
> >> there is a God, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
> >>
> >> If you are cured of alcoholism and God wasn't real then who cares if
> >> God is imaginary?
> >
> > If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to
> > cure your alcoholism?
>
> I am reminded of the story of Niels Bohr, who kept a good-luck charm, a
> horseshoe, nailed over the door of his summer house. When one of his
> guests teased him saying, "Niels, you're one of the foremost physicists
> and rationalists of the century. Do you really believe in good luck
> charms?" Bohr replied, "Of course, not. But I understand that it works
> whether you believe it or not."
>
> The point of turning oneself over to a "higher power" in aa is to realize
> that ordinary rational thought, will power, and human planning are
> impotent in the face of the compulsion to drink. In aa, an alcoholic
> turns to some force outside himself: the God, a god, the innate good of
> nature, the collective protection of those who love him. Whatever. If
> *self*-reliance worked, the drinking alcoholic wouldn't still be
> drinking.

I believe that by believing in God, people can give themselves psychological
boosts in their fight to resist alcohol.

Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> Dan from Boston wrote:
>
> > Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
> > > Steps?
> >
> > See my previous post on the subject - I'm an atheist and have had no
> > problems with the steps.
>
> How were you able to turn to a "Higher Power/God" without BELIEVING in
> God's existence?

My higher power is the AA program. AA is NOT a religious program. It is
your choice. The psychological advantage, of course, is to get you to go
outside of yourself for help. Other atheist AAs want to add their takes on
this?

The proof of the program for us all is that it works. I've been sober
nearly 29 years, and I have AA friends who have as much as 50 years'
sobriety. We say that if you've got one day (even one hour) you're a
winner.

On 05 Feb 2008 13:25:40 GMT, danfromboston2@yahoo.com(Dan from Boston)
wrote:

> We say that if you've got one day (even one hour) you're a
>winner.

When used in the context of the individual comparing himself sober to
himself drunk I can by it. More often than not it's used out of
context.

On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:28:12 -0500, Jamffer wrote:

> ou need to do what all Christians do.
>
> You need to (pretend) that a God exists.

How do you KNOW for *certain* that all Christians do this?
Hold it, maybe you are right. Who are the Christians?

Tex wrote:

>
> A higher power or a greater power doesn't have to be a *god*.

Here's a book recommended to me by a Zen monk:

http://www.amazon.com/One-Breath-Tim.../dp/1579549055

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A821F5.94384EA4@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> Jamffer wrote:
>
> > "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> > news:47A6EE9A.6A863357@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> > > According to the 12 steps advocated by Alcoholics Anonymous,
alcoholics
> > > are supposed to turn to God/A higher power for help in overcoming
> > > alcoholism. Alcoholics are to believe that a higher power can restore
> > > them to sanity, turn their wills and lives over to God, admit to God
the
> > > exact nature of their wrongs, ask God to remove their shortcomings,
and
> > > seek through prayer and meditation to improve their conscious contact
> > > with God.
> > >
> > > If an alcoholic happens to be an atheist, how would he apply the 12
> > > Steps?
> > >
> > > If an alcoholic atheist is COURT ORDERED to attend AA meetings, would
> > > this constitute an infringement on their First Amendment right to
> > > freedom of religion?
> >
> > You need to do what all Christians do.
> >
> > You need to (pretend) that a God exists.
> >
> > It doesn't matter whether God is or isn't, just (try to believe) that
there
> > is a God, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
> >
> > If you are cured of alcoholism and God wasn't real then who cares if God
is
> > imaginary?
>
> If you don't truly BELIEVE in God, how can you use faith in Him to cure
your
> alcoholism?
>
Faith is really (self hypnosis) it has been proven in tests to create real
physical body changes as (imaginary fire on hand) creating blisters etc.
This same principle is the real effect of placebos, which most doctors know
about and use.

"The Nolalu Barn Owl" <gordie@nolalu.on.ca> wrote in message
news:y6KdnWNe89kfmTTanZ2dnUVZ_q3inZ2d@tbaytel.net. ..
> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:28:12 -0500, Jamffer wrote:
>
> > ou need to do what all Christians do.
> >
> > You need to (pretend) that a God exists.
>
> How do you KNOW for *certain* that all Christians do this?
> Hold it, maybe you are right. Who are the Christians?

I'm not sure if lying to ones-self, is pretending or deceiving.

When your wife asks if she looks fat in a dress, do you dare say yes?

Or, she turns around and says how do I look?

The truth might not always (work) in every situation.

Like when you ask your spouse if you are the best sex partner they ever had.

The (truth) might get you in permanent (trouble).