On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:34:30 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>"(David P.)" wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >
>> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
>> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
>>
>> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
>
>But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?

He's jerking your chain....a higher power or power greater than
oneself doesn't have to be a *god*.

Tex wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:34:30 -0800, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"(David P.)" wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
> >> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
> >>
> >> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
> >
> >But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?
>
> He's jerking your chain....a higher power or power greater than
> oneself doesn't have to be a *god*.

What kinds of non-God powers are higher or greater than oneself?

I had thought that an atheist would not believe in ANY higher power!

Dan from Boston wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
> > "Higher Power"?
>
> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.

To me, a "Higher Power" is something divine or spiritual, like God. I have a
hard time regarding a group of human beings as divine or spiritual.

Dan from Boston wrote:

> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >
> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
> > "Higher Power"?
>
> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.

Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to attend AA
on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being infringed?

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> "F.H." wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >
>> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >>> jimbo wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>> >>>>> alcohol?
>> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>> >>>> heard
>> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>> >>>> Jimbo
>> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >>>
>> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >> working
>> >> a program in AA.
>> >>
>> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
>> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >> myself
>> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
>> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >>
>> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>> >> your
>> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
>> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
>> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >>
>> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >>
>> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
>> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
>> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
>> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>> >> 'at'
>> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >>
>> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>> >> quit
>> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
>> >> to stop.
>> >
>> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
>> > to
>> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
>> > a few
>> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>> > double
>> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her
>> > will
>> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>
>> Glucose tablets.
>
> How do glucose tablets work?
>

They sweeten up sour old farts.

"JoeRaisin" <joeraisin@charter.net> wrote in message
news:5eMpj.1866$az7.1508@newsfe07.lga...
> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>
>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>
>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>> Tex wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
>>>>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>>>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
>>>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>>>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>>>>>>>>> heard
>>>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
>>>>>>>>> Jimbo
>>>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>> a program in AA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
>>>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>>>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>>>>>>> myself
>>>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>>>>>>> reasons
>>>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
>>>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>>>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
>>>>>>> off
>>>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
>>>>>>> 'at'
>>>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
>>>>>>> quit
>>>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> to stop.
>>>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>>>>>> wants to
>>>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>>>>>> after a few
>>>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>>>>>> double
>>>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
>>>>>> her will
>>>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>>>>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
>>>>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
>>>> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and
>>>> caused her
>>>> to make up her mind to quit.
>>>>
>>> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
>>>
>>> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
>>> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
>>> sober using AA.
>>>
>>> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
>>> together a whole bunch of those days.
>>
>> I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".
>>
>
> But have you offered her anything in place of what she is getting from the
> drinking?
>

At the start of recovery, all should be issued an industrial-strength
vibrator--to "take the edge off".


> Its tough to say, I know you are getting some sort of benefit from this
> and you feel as though you need it - but just stop.
>
> That is what AA offered me. When I was drunk I didn't feel inadequate to
> the challenge of day-to-day life. AA showed me a way of diminishing the
> negative self perception and helped me re-build my confidence.
>
> Check the promises...

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A820D9.8C4B0B65@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> JoeRaisin wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >
>> > JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >>> Tex wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 00:58:41 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> >>>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> JoeRaisin wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Tim Bruening wrote:
>> >>>>>>> jimbo wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
>> >>>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings
>> >>>>>>>>> for
>> >>>>>>>>> alcohol?
>> >>>>>>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
>> >>>>>>>> heard
>> >>>>>>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a
>> >>>>>>>> physician.
>> >>>>>>>> Jimbo
>> >>>>>>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
>> >>>>>> working
>> >>>>>> a program in AA.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to
>> >>>>>> avoid
>> >>>>>> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a
>> >>>>>> few
>> >>>>>> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
>> >>>>>> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
>> >>>>>> myself
>> >>>>>> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with
>> >>>>>> who I
>> >>>>>> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
>> >>>>>> your
>> >>>>>> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same
>> >>>>>> reasons
>> >>>>>> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because
>> >>>>>> they
>> >>>>>> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they
>> >>>>>> don't
>> >>>>>> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
>> >>>>>> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave
>> >>>>>> off
>> >>>>>> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger
>> >>>>>> that
>> >>>>>> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small
>> >>>>>> book I
>> >>>>>> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying
>> >>>>>> sober 'at'
>> >>>>>> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants'
>> >>>>>> to quit
>> >>>>>> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get
>> >>>>>> her
>> >>>>>> to stop.
>> >>>>> After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now
>> >>>>> wants to
>> >>>>> quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol
>> >>>>> after a few
>> >>>>> days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
>> >>>>> double
>> >>>>> vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that
>> >>>>> her will
>> >>>>> power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
>> >>>> Sounds like she doesn't want to lose her husband which ain't
>> >>>> necessarily the same as wanting to quit.
>> >>> I believe that the threat of losing her husband got her attention and
>> >>> caused her
>> >>> to make up her mind to quit.
>> >>>
>> >> Then all she has to do when her step dad shows up is say no.
>> >>
>> >> I can't speak to how an atheist works with the program since I am not
>> >> one, but I can tell you that I know of many atheists who have stayed
>> >> sober using AA.
>> >>
>> >> If she can avoid drinking for one day all she has to do is just string
>> >> together a whole bunch of those days.
>> >
>> > I've suggested to her that she say every day "I will not drink TODAY!".
>> >
>>
>> But have you offered her anything in place of what she is getting from
>> the drinking?
>
> I am giving her emotional support and encouragement, and I got her husband
> to return to
> her and give her his love.

BUUUZZZZZZZZZZZ! Problem solved for her. Husband back. Goal accomplished. No
need for change.You gotta hold the carrot further away.



>
>> Its tough to say, I know you are getting some sort of benefit from this
>> and you feel as though you need it - but just stop.
>>
>> That is what AA offered me. When I was drunk I didn't feel inadequate
>> to the challenge of day-to-day life. AA showed me a way of diminishing
>> the negative self perception and helped me re-build my confidence.
>>
>> Check the promises...
>

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:59:52 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>Tex wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:34:30 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >"(David P.)" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist?
>> >> > How would he draw on a "Higher Power"?
>> >>
>> >> Get down on his knees and ask God for help!
>> >
>> >But he doesn't believe in God, so how can he ask God for help?
>>
>> He's jerking your chain....a higher power or power greater than
>> oneself doesn't have to be a *god*.
>
>What kinds of non-God powers are higher or greater than oneself?
>
>I had thought that an atheist would not believe in ANY higher power!

Well ...aa suggests for a start the group itself...then there's the
doornob .....Alcohol is more powerful than an alcoholic atheist so
why is it difficult to imagine the atheist not being able to have a
conception of something more powerful then him or her self?

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 01:04:56 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:

>
>
>Dan from Boston wrote:
>
>> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > What happens if the alcoholic is an atheist? How would he draw on a
>> > "Higher Power"?
>>
>> Tim, I'm an atheist and I've been sober in AA for nearly 29 years. Your
>> higher power can be anything you select, and it can change over time. It is
>> essentially something outside of yourself. Many people, including me, call
>> AA itself their higher power, but that's up to the individual.
>
>Have any atheist alcoholics ever objected to being court ordered to attend AA
>on the grounds that their right to not believe in God is being infringed?


http://www.morerevealed.com/archives/9thCircuit.pdf

sharx35 wrote:

> "Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
> news:47A81F79.A84161E7@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> >
> >
> > "F.H." wrote:
> >
> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >
> >> > JoeRaisin wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Tim Bruening wrote:
> >> >>> jimbo wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>> On Feb 2, 7:38 pm, Tim Bruening <tsbru...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
> >> >>>> wrote:
> >> >>>>> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> >> >>>>> alcohol?
> >> >>>> I've never taken a medication to reduce craving nor have I ever
> >> >>>> heard
> >> >>>> of one that works. Her best best would be to consult a physician.
> >> >>>> Jimbo
> >> >>> How then do you resist the urge to drink?
> >> >>>
> >> >> I couldn't - at least not for very long. That was until I began
> >> >> working
> >> >> a program in AA.
> >> >>
> >> >> AA taught me to draw strength from my higher power in order to avoid
> >> >> that first drink. By staying sober for more than a few days to a few
> >> >> weeks at a time I continued working the steps and developed a new
> >> >> perspective on myself - a perspective that meant I could look at
> >> >> myself
> >> >> in the mirror without loathing. Once I became comfortable with who I
> >> >> was, avoiding the first drink became a lot less difficult.
> >> >>
> >> >> I will offer to you a perspective you may not have considered. If
> >> >> your
> >> >> friend's wife is an alcoholic she is not drinking for the same reasons
> >> >> as you or most other social drinkers. Most people drink because they
> >> >> like the way it makes them feel, alcoholics drink because they don't
> >> >> like the way they feel when they are not drinking.
> >> >>
> >> >> Slogans won't change that, nor will medications.
> >> >>
> >> >> If AA isn't her cup of tea, she could try Rational Recovery which
> >> >> utilizes "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" in order to stave off
> >> >> cravings. The only caveat with RR is to try and avoid the anger that
> >> >> the program is darned near built upon. While reading the small book I
> >> >> get the impression that RR sobriety is more a case of staying sober
> >> >> 'at'
> >> >> AA rather than being sober to better one's life.
> >> >>
> >> >> In the end, however, it boils down to whether or not she 'wants' to
> >> >> quit
> >> >> drinking. If not, nothing you (or even your friend) can do to get her
> >> >> to stop.
> >> >
> >> > After nearly losing her husband last week, I believe that she now wants
> >> > to
> >> > quit. The problem is that she gets a strong craving for alcohol after
> >> > a few
> >> > days. Often, her stepdad shows up and takes her to a bar to drink
> >> > double
> >> > vodkas. I was hoping to find drugs to reduce that craving so that her
> >> > will
> >> > power would be enough to resist the reduced craving.
> >>
> >> Glucose tablets.
> >
> > How do glucose tablets work?
> >
>
> They sweeten up sour old farts.

How does that reduce alcohol cravings?