"Muddle" <berniesimmons@epix.net> wrote in message
news:k8Tqj.170$kD5.2234@news1.epix.net...
>
> "Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:47ab431e$0$6162$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
>> news3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>>>
>>> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>>>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>>>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>>>
>>>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>>>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>>>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>>>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>>>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>>>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>>>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>>>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>>>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>>>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>>>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>>>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>>>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>>>
>>>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>>>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>>>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>>>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>>>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>>>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>>>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>>>> still standing ...
>>>>
>>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>>> lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>>> jerk a few people around.
>>>
>>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in
>>> your life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put
>>> the bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up
>>> decisions because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how
>>> to make good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it
>>> took a while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life
>>> that did not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse.
>>> No, I am not trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I
>>> made were sound but the improvement was dramatically better and took
>>> time. If nothing else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a
>>> few people before I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And
>>> from my experience and that of others I have seen over the years, most
>>> are not clear headed enough, or wise enough to think through an issue
>>> without booze for some time before they can begin to trust their
>>> thinking as to making sound judgments. How many do you think are able to
>>> immediately break their self centered acting on impulse way of life
>>> right after they get sober? Not too many I suspect.
>>>
>>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected
>>> that I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>>
>>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on
>>> out of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard
>>> and fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good
>>> suggestion. Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober
>>> for a year. Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions
>>> as if you are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to
>>> insure that you won't remain sober.
>>>
>>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>>
>>> Salt and pepper
>>> RonG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and I
>> knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur
>> me in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
>> unselfishness that takes time...
>>
>> Timburr
>>
>
> There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
> problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
> sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
> relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
> I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
> newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people
> have a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
> concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
> couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
> are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
> really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>

Bzzzzzzz. You just lost. The significant others SHOULD be in Al-Anon.
Al-Anon was NOT created to be some kind of social auxiliary body, you know.
In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of ANY
healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both people were
alcoholics, sober or otherwise.

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47AC1180.67172D2A@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
>
>
> DaveB wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 23:56:18 -0800, Tim Bruening
>> <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Dan from Boston wrote:
>> >
>> >> Tim Bruening <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >> > Yesterday morning, she went to a 6:30 am AA meeting by walking in
>> >> > the
>> >> > cold, as she had lost the keys to her truck, and doesn't have a
>> >> > bike.
>> >> > When I last talked to her, she was about to go to a 6:30 pm meeting.
>> >> > Fortunately, she got new keys for her truck yesterday during the
>> >> > day, as
>> >> > she had gotten a cold from walking in the cold.
>> >>
>> >> That's very encouraging. I've found that when a person isn't ready for
>> >> the
>> >> program, any excuse will do. When they are ready, you can't keep them
>> >> out
>> >> with a baseball bat.
>> >
>> >She attended two more meetings today, then picked up her husband at the
>> >library and went on a date.
>> >
>> What does the husband think of her going on dates?
>
> A date WITH her husband!
>

Who would have thunk it!?

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 07:02:40 GMT, "Muddle" <berniesimmons@epix.net>
wrote:

>
>"Tim and Lisa" <tworkman1@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:47ab431e$0$6162$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
>>
>> "RonG" <ron@network12.com> wrote in message
>> news3Hqj.44341$m6.24249@newsfe18.lga...
>>>
>>> "Tex" <twizzard@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:nv8lq3t72rhbs5a46ns6ul0gov9q20afq5@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 11:03:53 -0600, "Rob D."
>>>> <fr.robert.yourfrustrations.dye@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>I would think dating someone in the program best avoided, unless BOTH
>>>>>have a good strong recovery and quite a bit of time in...and even then,
>>>>>it might not be so savvy...
>>>>
>>>> Why ... do the odds go up dating someone outside the program...seems
>>>> to me the chance of a relationship lasting are about 50/50 ...no
>>>> matter who is or isn't in the program or even if both ain't in the
>>>> program.
>>>>
>>>> Time in...what the hell does that have to do with anything...unless of
>>>> course one makes the assumption time in is suppose to translate into
>>>> being 'better' or stonger or whatever.
>>>>
>>>> Here we are involved in a program (those of us involved in a program)
>>>> where we talk of being beyond human aid....etc. ... then there's a
>>>> portion of the program where one is told we treat sex like any other
>>>> problem...do I put aside dealing with anything and everything for a
>>>> year...just because some savvy A-hole says so... I don't think so.
>>>>
>>>> I am of the understanding it's an individual deal based on each
>>>> individuals spiritual condition...some will find for them they can
>>>> while other's will find they can't...and if they can't then they best
>>>> get to work on their spiritual condition...some will find they can but
>>>> don't care to...that's fine.
>>>>
>>>> Fuck the Salt & Peppers, the not enough or too much...the not the
>>>> right kind...form your own ideal and go back over your past and do
>>>> what it suggests you do...if ya fall short ...get back up and make it
>>>> right...If one is honest, unselfish, and not causing any harm ...in
>>>> fit spiritual condition...fuck it go for it...after all if it's based
>>>> on avoidance the chances are it's doomed...base it on a fit spiritual
>>>> condition ... then if it works out or if it falls apart ...you are
>>>> still standing ...
>>>>
>>>> I guess one can get the idea I don't think much of invisable arbitrary
>>>> timecharts passed on by 'savvy' fuckheads...especially the human one's
>>>> when it states *god* (hp, gp, doornob, etc.) alone can judge our sex
>>>> lives.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think you are missing the whole point here or you are just trying to
>>> jerk a few people around.
>>>
>>> How sharp a tack were you when you first got sober and how long did it
>>> take you to start being able to make sound decisions about issues in your
>>> life or new issues? Maybe it only took you a few days after you put the
>>> bottle down. After years of drinking and making many fucked up decisions
>>> because of my drinking and to a great extent, not learning how to make
>>> good decisions in my life because the booze got in the way, it took a
>>> while for me to begin to be able to make decisions in my life that did
>>> not revolve around booze and were acted upon out of impulse. No, I am not
>>> trying to say that once I got sober, all the decisions I made were sound
>>> but the improvement was dramatically better and took time. If nothing
>>> else, before I made some major decision, to run it by a few people before
>>> I jumped in as I always did when I was drinking. And from my experience
>>> and that of others I have seen over the years, most are not clear headed
>>> enough, or wise enough to think through an issue without booze for some
>>> time before they can begin to trust their thinking as to making sound
>>> judgments. How many do you think are able to immediately break their self
>>> centered acting on impulse way of life right after they get sober? Not
>>> too many I suspect.
>>>
>>> One of the discoveries that I made about myself and this thinking
>>> business was how big a part booze played in many of my decisions that I
>>> did not realize booze had anything to do with what I decided. For
>>> example. Something would happen between me and someone which would piss
>>> me off. I would not do anything about the issue at the time, but while
>>> drinking, I would "think" about the incident and over some time I would
>>> formulate my revenge while I was drunk. At some point I would take my
>>> shot at this person and being "sober" at the time, I never connected that
>>> I thought out my revenge while drunk.
>>>
>>> No one can predict the future as you point out about the relationship
>>> business. But in the beginning of sobriety, I think it is wise to learn
>>> to put off any major decisions that we are normally used to acting on out
>>> of impulse as we did when we were drinking. There is nothing hard and
>>> fast about the one year deal but it does seem like a good suggestion.
>>> Most people who start out in sobriety, don't make it sober for a year.
>>> Complicating one's success in staying sober making decisions as if you
>>> are still drinking when you don't have to, is a good way to insure that
>>> you won't remain sober.
>>>
>>> How long do you figure that it takes a person to get honest with
>>> themselves and unselfish when they are starting to get sober?
>>>
>>> Salt and pepper
>>> RonG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Well for me that sound decision started on the day in Aug 16th 2001 and I
>> knew if I went to bed sober I was going to wake up sober. It worked fur me
>> in the begining. I think they can get honest from day one, it's the
>> unselfishness that takes time...
>>
>> Timburr
>>
>
>There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
>problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
>sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
>relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
>I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
>newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people have
>a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
>concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
>couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
>are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
>really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>

Damn Muddle....you are making too much sense.

Muddle wrote:

> There are many happy sober couples in AA, just as in the real world. The
> problems with relationships within AA are twofold. One is people just
> sobering up need to pull their head out of their ass before starting a
> relationship and the other is many old timers, male and female, doing what
> I've always heard called 13th stepping or starting relationships with
> newcomers when that's the last thing these people need. If two people have
> a decent program going and want to hook up that's fine as far as I'm
> concerned and the relationships usually work out well. I've seen more
> couples divorce, because one is in the program and one isn't than if both
> are. Having a major portion of your life that a significant other can't
> really participate in and will never understand is often a problem.
>
>

And then there is the situation I've seen quite a few times where two
relative newcomers, both seemingly working the program to the best of
their abilities, hook up and things look great for a little while. Then
one of them goes back out, and the other is now facing a serious threat
to their own sobriety.

I'm all for offering my ES&H and then letting people make their own
decisions. But there are a number of ways relationships can end badly
for newcomers. Now, as it has been pointed out in this thread, *ANY*
relationship has a good chance of ending badly. The biggest difference I
can see is that when a newcomer relationship ends badly, there is a
good chance of somebody getting drunk who really needs to be staying sober.

sharx35 wrote:

> In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of ANY
> healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both people were
> alcoholics, sober or otherwise.
>
>

You should get out more.

Of course, depending on your definition of healthy and
non-dysfunctional, I'm not sure any such marriage exists, period. :-)

> >
> >
>
> And then there is the situation I've seen quite a few times where two
> relative newcomers, both seemingly working the program to the best of
> their abilities, hook up and things look great for a little while. Then
> one of them goes back out, and the other is now facing a serious threat
> to their own sobriety.
>
> I'm all for offering my ES&H and then letting people make their own
> decisions. But there are a number of ways relationships can end badly
> for newcomers. Now, as it has been pointed out in this thread, *ANY*
> relationship has a good chance of ending badly. The biggest difference I
> can see is that when a newcomer relationship ends badly, there is a
> good chance of somebody getting drunk who really needs to be staying
> sober.


That pretty much says it all.

On Feb 8, 9:13*am, "Charlie M. 1958" <charlesmarsh...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> And then there is the situation I've seen quite a few times where two
> relative newcomers, both seemingly working the program to the best of
> their abilities, hook up and things look great for a little while.

Never break them up cuz you will f*ck up 4 people.
Jimbo

In news:13qop8faq5uibec@corp.supernews.com,
Charlie M. 1958 <charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> typed:lugubriously
> sharx35 wrote:

>> In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of
>> ANY healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both
>> people were alcoholics, sober or otherwise.

> You should get out more.

> Of course, depending on your definition of healthy and
> non-dysfunctional, I'm not sure any such marriage exists, period. :-)

Heh heh, mine is ideal. We both love me \)

Try marijuana, it works wonders.

"Tim Bruening" <tsbrueni@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in message
news:47A50CF2.6C5C8CF5@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
> What medications, if any, do you take to reduce your cravings for
> alcohol? I ask because the wife of a co-worker is severally alcoholic.
> She can't stay sober for more than a few days at a time, then drinks for
> many days. When she drinks, she turns violent, forcing her husband to
> move out. She is currently sober and relatively stable, and her husband
> ate dinner with her last night, but I would like to get her anti craving
> medicines before she drinks again and again alienates her husband!!!!!

"Tommy" <tommyleprechaunhaha@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6144v7F1s9nlmU1@mid.individual.net...
> In news:13qop8faq5uibec@corp.supernews.com,
> Charlie M. 1958 <charlesmarshall@hotmail.com> typed:lugubriously
>> sharx35 wrote:
>
>>> In 27 plus years in the program, I am NOT aware, in real life, of
>>> ANY healthy, non-dysfunctional marital relationship where both
>>> people were alcoholics, sober or otherwise.
>
>> You should get out more.
>
>> Of course, depending on your definition of healthy and
>> non-dysfunctional, I'm not sure any such marriage exists, period. :-)
>
> Heh heh, mine is ideal. We both love me \)
>

Ah, that is probably closer to the truth for MANY on the western shore of
the Atlantic, too. Mrs. Sharx suggested that this very afternoon.