Jews have no place to go for alcoholism. Since AA is a christian
group exclusively for christian alcoholics, Jews have nowhere to go
for sobriety. Jews hate Jesus and christianity. It looks like AA is
bigoted against all non-christians, particularly Jews. It looks like
only christians are worth saving from alcoholism. Besides being
cursed to hell by christians, jews are also unworthy of getting help
for alcoholism. Somehow, this bigoted christian God does not consider
all people equal or worthy of salvation. Somehow this christian God
sounds more like Satan....

If this Jesus is such a loving God as christians want everyone to
believe, how come he discriminates against those who do not follow his
cult of christianity? This Jesus dont sound like any God I'd want to
follow, he sounds more like a dictator who rewards those that obey his
every wish and command and punishes anyone who refuses to follow him.

How many more people will die in the name of christianity?

In article <gqjg23h8rq4heeff52gqlehv4qlkafk8l2@4ax.com>, peter@...
wrote:

> Jews have no place to go for alcoholism. Since AA is a christian
> group exclusively for christian alcoholics, Jews have nowhere to go
> for sobriety. Jews hate Jesus and christianity. It looks like AA is
> bigoted against all non-christians, particularly Jews. It looks like
> only christians are worth saving from alcoholism. Besides being
> cursed to hell by christians, jews are also unworthy of getting help
> for alcoholism. Somehow, this bigoted christian God does not consider
> all people equal or worthy of salvation. Somehow this christian God
> sounds more like Satan....
>
> If this Jesus is such a loving God as christians want everyone to
> believe, how come he discriminates against those who do not follow his
> cult of christianity? This Jesus dont sound like any God I'd want to
> follow, he sounds more like a dictator who rewards those that obey his
> every wish and command and punishes anyone who refuses to follow him.
>
> How many more people will die in the name of christianity?

I'm active in AA, and have been for awhile. I attend at least half a
dozen meetings each week, and read the literature, and talk to lots of
people who have been active in AA for literally decades.

None of us has noted that AA is a "Christian" group.

It's true that there's lots of talk about turning over problems to God,
and of prayer, it's also true that the program stresses over and over
again that each person is perfectly free to decide who or what his/her
own "higher power" is or isn't.

I personally know a number of Jews who attend the same meetings that I
go to. I'll make it a point to ask them whether or not they feel any
sort of discrimination. But I'll fall over in a dead faint if any of
them responds in the affirmative.

Do take the time to learn a bit more about the organization. I'm
confident that you'll find that you and other non-Christians find no
obstacles there. Any more than an agnostic, such as me, finds.

I've personally never heard the sort of bigotry that you cite, either
inside of AA or elsewhere. Sure, I know that it happens, because I read
of it. My point is simply to stress that it's a rarity, and is the sort
of rant that is disseminated only by the mindless fringe players of
society. Keep an eye on all "haters", but don't give them more
attention than they actually deserve. So far as I can tell, every
religion has such members among its followers.

H

I wish people in AA would interpret the "higher power" as one's inner
God-designed biochemistry and get to know this biochemistry.

They would then understand that alcoholism is a disease that can be
treated like any other disease. God would have given you the "free
will" (and the brains) to study and understand your biochemistry and
help you overcome addiction, by God designed natural laws. Don't
misinterpret what is "higher power", the real power lies in your hand;
by studying biochemistry.

Please read;

"Why Alcoholics drink?" at
http://www.hypoglycemia.asn.au/artic...ics_drink.html

<peter@...> wrote in message
news:gqjg23h8rq4heeff52gqlehv4qlkafk8l2@4ax.com...
> Jews have no place to go for alcoholism. Since AA is a christian
> group exclusively for christian alcoholics, Jews have nowhere to go
> for sobriety.

Neither do buddhists, hindus, Pagans or any of the non-abrahamists religions
so what's your point?

>Jews hate Jesus and christianity. It looks like AA is
> bigoted against all non-christians, particularly Jews. It looks like
> only christians are worth saving from alcoholism. Besides being
> cursed to hell by christians, jews are also unworthy of getting help
> for alcoholism. Somehow, this bigoted christian God does not consider
> all people equal or worthy of salvation. Somehow this christian God
> sounds more like Satan....

I Honestly think your blaming the god for the sins of the man.

>
> If this Jesus is such a loving God as christians want everyone to
> believe, how come he discriminates against those who do not follow his
> cult of christianity? This Jesus dont sound like any God I'd want to
> follow, he sounds more like a dictator who rewards those that obey his
> every wish and command and punishes anyone who refuses to follow him.
>
> How many more people will die in the name of christianity?

"Hawth Hill" <BackHome@expat.com> wrote in message
news:z5SdneNsXOaz9LXbnZ2dnUVZ_rmdnZ2d@cablespeedwa .com...

> I'm active in AA, and have been for awhile. I attend at least half a
> dozen meetings each week, and read the literature, and talk to lots of
> people who have been active in AA for literally decades.
>
> None of us has noted that AA is a "Christian" group.

I was active in AA and talked to lots of people a week who've been to aa for
decades, attended around three mettings a week, heard all the literature and
we've al agreed that AA IS a Chrisitian group.

>
> It's true that there's lots of talk about turning over problems to God,
> and of prayer, it's also true that the program stresses over and over
> again that each person is perfectly free to decide who or what his/her
> own "higher power" is or isn't.

How many times is "God" mentioned in the twelve steps? How many times is God
mentioned in the big book?
How many times is alcohol mentioned in the twelves steps? how many times is
alcohol mentioned in the big book?

>
> I personally know a number of Jews who attend the same meetings that I
> go to. I'll make it a point to ask them whether or not they feel any
> sort of discrimination. But I'll fall over in a dead faint if any of
> them responds in the affirmative.

While you're at it ask the pagans, buddhist and hindus the same question...
if there are any there.

>
> Do take the time to learn a bit more about the organization. I'm
> confident that you'll find that you and other non-Christians find no
> obstacles there. Any more than an agnostic, such as me, finds.
>

Actually, we do!

> I've personally never heard the sort of bigotry that you cite, either
> inside of AA or elsewhere. Sure, I know that it happens, because I read
> of it. My point is simply to stress that it's a rarity, and is the sort
> of rant that is disseminated only by the mindless fringe players of
> society. Keep an eye on all "haters", but don't give them more
> attention than they actually deserve. So far as I can tell, every
> religion has such members among its followers.
>
> H

In article <GnaWh.18530$N94.11311@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
"Darren" <daz@notsane.com> wrote:

>
> I was active in AA and talked to lots of people a week who've been to aa for
> decades, attended around three mettings a week, heard all the literature and
> we've al agreed that AA IS a Chrisitian group.
>
Darren, I'd have to agree that AA is a Christian group if you're simply
counting the numbers of people who attend and participate, just as the
numbers of people who consider themselves Christian predominate
throughout American society. I believe, however, that the fact that a
particular group is represented in larger numbers is quite distinct from
"discrimination".



> How many times is "God" mentioned in the twelve steps? How many times is God
> mentioned in the big book?
> How many times is alcohol mentioned in the twelves steps? how many times is
> alcohol mentioned in the big book?
>

You're right, "God" is mentioned many, many times. The big book, and
numerous other AA publications, however, make it quite clear that the
word is not used to refer to a "Christian" god. Indeed, the big book
goes so far as to make it clear that agnostics "fit" within the group,
whether we believe in the Christian God, or Jesus, or not. It made me
uncomfortable to hear so many references to God when I first started,
but I came to understand that the "God" referenced was nothing more or
less than my own particular "higher power", as defined and understood by
no one but me. I've since come to have a better and better
understanding and relationship with my higher power, and, yes, even to
believe in the power of prayer (even though I'm not at all sure just who
I'm praying to, or if whoever it is listens, or even why a higher power
should happen to give a hoot about whatever is troubling me). All I
know is that I get help from it. Good enough for me. . . . No one has
ever tried to tell me what sort of God to believe in, or what sort of
God I should turn to for help; it's enough that doing so gives me some
spiritual help and peace at times when I need it; not always, but often.

Whatever you are, Darren, or are not, I can't believe that those whom
you have witnessed practicing discrimination against non-Christians are
at all representative of AA or its membership. Tolerance is a HUGE
watchword within AA. We discriminate against only booze, and the ways
that lead us back into its traps.

Whatever you decide, Darren, I wish you well, and, if you don't mind,
I'll even pray for you.

HH

"Hawth Hill" <BackHome@expat.com> wrote in message
news:rumdncYATpUB2rTbnZ2dnUVZ_tunnZ2d@cablespeedwa .com...
> In article <GnaWh.18530$N94.11311@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net>,
> "Darren" <daz@notsane.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I was active in AA and talked to lots of people a week who've been to aa
>> for
>> decades, attended around three mettings a week, heard all the literature
>> and
>> we've al agreed that AA IS a Chrisitian group.
>>
> Darren, I'd have to agree that AA is a Christian group if you're simply
> counting the numbers of people who attend and participate, just as the
> numbers of people who consider themselves Christian predominate
> throughout American society. I believe, however, that the fact that a
> particular group is represented in larger numbers is quite distinct from
> "discrimination".
>
>
>
>> How many times is "God" mentioned in the twelve steps? How many times is
>> God
>> mentioned in the big book?
>> How many times is alcohol mentioned in the twelves steps? how many times
>> is
>> alcohol mentioned in the big book?
>>
>
> You're right, "God" is mentioned many, many times. The big book, and
> numerous other AA publications, however, make it quite clear that the
> word is not used to refer to a "Christian" god. Indeed, the big book
> goes so far as to make it clear that agnostics "fit" within the group,
> whether we believe in the Christian God, or Jesus, or not.

It referes to God, the proper noun, not, god, the common noun. So they are
definately referring to the Christian "God."


>It made me
> uncomfortable to hear so many references to God when I first started,
> but I came to understand that the "God" referenced was nothing more or
> less than my own particular "higher power", as defined and understood by
> no one but me. I've since come to have a better and better
> understanding and relationship with my higher power, and, yes, even to
> believe in the power of prayer (even though I'm not at all sure just who
> I'm praying to, or if whoever it is listens, or even why a higher power
> should happen to give a hoot about whatever is troubling me). All I
> know is that I get help from it. Good enough for me. . . . No one has
> ever tried to tell me what sort of God to believe in, or what sort of
> God I should turn to for help; it's enough that doing so gives me some
> spiritual help and peace at times when I need it; not always, but often.

Only Christians (and derivities) call thier higher power, "God". All other
Religions call thier diety by his/her/thier names.
>
> Whatever you are, Darren, or are not, I can't believe that those whom
> you have witnessed practicing discrimination against non-Christians are
> at all representative of AA or its membership. Tolerance is a HUGE
> watchword within AA. We discriminate against only booze, and the ways
> that lead us back into its traps.
>

Count how many times, 'God', not 'god or 'your god, diety, whatever ' is
used in the steps and the big book. Step three is a dead giveaway

> Whatever you decide, Darren, I wish you well, and, if you don't mind,
> I'll even pray for you.
>

As long as you pray to my gods for me and not yours.
> HH

Hmm...I didn't know Jews were Godless....
Just like liberals, I guess...oh well...

--


"Darren" <daz@notsane.com> wrote in message
news:2Y9Wh.4781$VT3.2622@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>
> <peter@...> wrote in message
> news:gqjg23h8rq4heeff52gqlehv4qlkafk8l2@4ax.com...
>> Jews have no place to go for alcoholism. Since AA is a christian
>> group exclusively for christian alcoholics, Jews have nowhere to go
>> for sobriety.
>
> Neither do buddhists, hindus, Pagans or any of the non-abrahamists
> religions so what's your point?
>
>>Jews hate Jesus and christianity. It looks like AA is
>> bigoted against all non-christians, particularly Jews. It looks like
>> only christians are worth saving from alcoholism. Besides being
>> cursed to hell by christians, jews are also unworthy of getting help
>> for alcoholism. Somehow, this bigoted christian God does not consider
>> all people equal or worthy of salvation. Somehow this christian God
>> sounds more like Satan....
>
> I Honestly think your blaming the god for the sins of the man.
>
>>
>> If this Jesus is such a loving God as christians want everyone to
>> believe, how come he discriminates against those who do not follow his
>> cult of christianity? This Jesus dont sound like any God I'd want to
>> follow, he sounds more like a dictator who rewards those that obey his
>> every wish and command and punishes anyone who refuses to follow him.
>>
>> How many more people will die in the name of christianity?
>
>

oldhickory wrote:
> Hmm...I didn't know Jews were Godless....
> Just like liberals, I guess...oh well...
>
Oh, liberals have Gods also. They just aren't murdering MF'ing Gods.

Actually Jews, Muslims and Christians pray to the same god. They all follow
the old testament for the most part with slightly different interpretations.
They violently differ on the subjects of Jesus and Mohamed.

On the second page of the chapter titled We Agnostics in the Big Book you'll
find a two sentence statement on the main object of the Big Book and it
isn't to turn you into a Christian.

Look for the sentence which says "it's main object is".

"oldhickory" <inboxie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:462c1878$0$17187$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Hmm...I didn't know Jews were Godless....
> Just like liberals, I guess...oh well...
>
> --
>
>
> "Darren" <daz@notsane.com> wrote in message
> news:2Y9Wh.4781$VT3.2622@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...
>>
>> <peter@...> wrote in message
>> news:gqjg23h8rq4heeff52gqlehv4qlkafk8l2@4ax.com...
>>> Jews have no place to go for alcoholism. Since AA is a christian
>>> group exclusively for christian alcoholics, Jews have nowhere to go
>>> for sobriety.
>>
>> Neither do buddhists, hindus, Pagans or any of the non-abrahamists
>> religions so what's your point?
>>
>>>Jews hate Jesus and christianity. It looks like AA is
>>> bigoted against all non-christians, particularly Jews. It looks like
>>> only christians are worth saving from alcoholism. Besides being
>>> cursed to hell by christians, jews are also unworthy of getting help
>>> for alcoholism. Somehow, this bigoted christian God does not consider
>>> all people equal or worthy of salvation. Somehow this christian God
>>> sounds more like Satan....
>>
>> I Honestly think your blaming the god for the sins of the man.
>>
>>>
>>> If this Jesus is such a loving God as christians want everyone to
>>> believe, how come he discriminates against those who do not follow his
>>> cult of christianity? This Jesus dont sound like any God I'd want to
>>> follow, he sounds more like a dictator who rewards those that obey his
>>> every wish and command and punishes anyone who refuses to follow him.
>>>
>>> How many more people will die in the name of christianity?
>>
>>
>
>