Conversation with an Alanon Member.
Well, not a conversation really but an e-mail exchange with a friend of

mine who is an Alanon member. This friend also happens to attend a
Church I have gone to in the past.
Here is the e-mail exchange (slightly edited) and you can see what a
more enlightened Alanon member has to say about Anonymous meetings and
Alanon in private.

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Alanon Member: :
I was in a recent debate with a lady in Alanon about the the alcoholic
having a disease idea, but once I could see she was un-able to grasp my

point of view, I backed off and let go rather than push her further in
to her un-reasonable point of view. I've noticed that IF I argue its
too much ego, my opponent will harden their heart against me just
because they sense my pride is to involved in trying to prove I'm
right.


My response:
Once a person falls for a false idea its hard to get them to see
they've been had.
You become the bad guy if you tell them the truth. My ex-wife is the
same way about her recent PSI seminar class. She doesn't want to see
shes been had.


Same way with AA by the way. Try telling them they dont have a
"disease" which is the Truth, and you will become the bad guy.


I understand what your saying thoug. . You cant push Truth on people
willfully. But realize all the people that believe that "disease" stuff

are asleep, in a trance. .No matter how many rosey things they may say

about God.


If you run into someone like that again, you might refer them to my
website. I have written quite a bit about it.


It is threatening to people involved in AA and Alanon to be told that
Alcoholism is not a disease. It is a major teaching of those programs.
Once a person has accepted the false belief that Alcoholism is a
disease it is very hard to get them to see other wise. There are so
many secular voices in our society agreeing with them, treatment
centers, etc. as well as all the members of their local groups that
they believe it just HAS to be right.


Questioning that idea is threatening to their whole world. If they were

to think Alcoholism is not a disease then it leads to many other
questions. Like what is it if it isnt a disease?. They would have to
see that all the experts at their meetings are wrong, and that all the
literature they have proclaiming it a disease is wrong. They would
eventually see that their loved one who has alcoholism (or themself)
has a very profound spiritual problem. (to put it delicately) l.They
would have to see that their programs dont really help people that they

just addict them to meetings.


I havent known a lot of Alanon people.But if you think most AA's dont
believe they have a "disease" you are wrong. Almost all of them do with

a few rare exceptions. Ask any AA person you know if they have a
disease and they will tell you yes.And at meetings it is a constant
repetion about their disease. And yes it does matter.


I cant tell you how many times at meetings I have heard people say
something like this:


"I was glad to find out that I was not a bad person but that I had a
disease. Im not a bad person but a sick person getting well", Or words
to that effect. You see how they are?They are not sinners in need of
repentance.


A Pastor friend says it like this, " You cant be born again until you
realize your evil". So can you see how the belief that you have a
disease would get in the way of that? Our mutual Pastor Friend says it

this way "if you believe your drinking is a disease that your
finished (spiritually). .


Also isnt one of the character flaws of human beings believing lies?
So the AA's that believe it are disconnected from reality, hypnotized.
The Alanons that believe it are disconnected from reality also.There is

no such thng as a disease of Alcoholism. Its just lies. I wrote the
following article about this subject:


Why Alcoholism and Addiction are not diseases


I am a long time member (20+ years of sobriety) of Alcoholics Anonymous

And Narcotics Anonymous. I have read all the AA and NA approved
literature regarding these addictions being a disease. Most members of
Anonymous programs are indoctrinated with the idea they have a disease
almost from the start. Considering the lost confused state they are in
,it is no wonder most accept the idea uncritically. It is also true
that most drinkers and drug addicts do not believe they have a disease
when they are using. But is this idea true? And is it helpful or
harmful. Their have been books written on this subject , most notably
"The Useful Lie" by William Playfair which is worth reading. The truth
of the matter is that there is no scientific proof that addictions are
a disease, although many assert that there is. Stanton Peel (author of
Diseasing of America ) has reviewed most of the scientific evidence and

it is clear to the objective observer there is no scientific proof that

addictions are diseases. The purpose of this short essay is not to
argue the point and it is recommended the sincere seeker read Peeles
work if he wants to review the so-called evidence. Belief in a lie can
effect behavior. If a person truly believes he has a disease which
triggers an allergy then he may indeed not drink or use drugs. It is
also true if a person is hypnotized into believing he is a Rooster, he
will crow like a Rooster. Why is this idea so appealing? First of all,
the alcoholic/addict does not know what is wrong with him and this is
an explanation. It is also appealing to the Alcoholic because most
alcoholics/and addicts have done terrible things. The idea of having a
disease is appealing. I have on occasion heard people in meetings say
they were relieved to "find out" they had a disease and that they
were "sick" people not bad people. It is easier for a proud, wrong
person to admit there is something wrong with his body than admit there

is something wrong with his soul. And that is what is wrong with the
disease concept. The alcoholic/addict is a sinner in need of
repentance. He needs to see his prideful, resentful,angry, disobedient
sinful nature, and feel the attendant pain. This Godly pain is what the

scripture refers to in the beatitudes "Blessed are they that mourn, for

they shall be comforted". Belief in a lie does not save, Belief in the
truth does. Think of it, the entire "treatment"industry in the United
States is based on a lie.


Ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free-Jesus
Christ.Copyright-
************************************************** ***************8
Alaonon Member :
:
That was a good article, and it's a shame that so many people believe
that nonsense, but I'm curious about something. As long as people are
keeping the focus on the fact that they have some serious character
flaws they need to look at, do you really think being in the dark about

the disease issue really matters?
The reason I ask this question is because I don't hear any AA or Alanon

people saying that since they are suffering from a disease, they are no

longer going to try and overcome their character flaws.


********************************
My response:
I was thinking about this some more today. Its very simple. You have to

realize your evil to be born again. You cant realize your evil as long
as you buy into this disease nonsense. I would say 95% at least of AA's

buy into it. And I think most Alanons buy into it also.


Alanon Member:


That makes sense, and I like the way you put that. Keep in mind that I
don't buy the disease concept, but let me say this. Suppose your in AA
or Alanon, and you buy in to all of the disease nonsense, but at the
same time you seek Gods help to address all those unhealthy ways about
you self, like your anger, your impatience, your lack of concern for
others, etc. Even if your ignorant about the real nature of the
addiction, your can still be growing, so while I am disapointed to see
the disease nonsense being preached, at least the program does address
some of what gets between us and the Lord, so I think the program is
helping a lot of people.
I know that for my self the program seems to be a positive thing,
and it seems to complement the things I haver learned at Church from my

Pastor. , but I do see your point, and any one who chooses to hold on
to "it's not my fault I'm an alcoholic", would seem to be in
disagreement with some of the very principles behind the 12 step
programs.
Here is the really crazy part, why does AA even use the 12 steps if
they really believe alcoholism is a disease? A disease can't be treated

by following moral guidlines if it were really a disease, To me the
word disease implys that it's a physical problem.


My response:
I think AA can be a stage of the journey for some people until they
find a really good spiritual teacher. Of course, there probably is that

rare individual who does find God on their own.
Unfortunately, good spiritual tearchers are rare and hard to find. .
Some AA's do eventually drift into the churches.But in many ways the
modern churches tend to be as lost as AA


The program has some postitive aspects but I dont think the people
there are finding salvation. When someone really begins to wake up they

are not too welcome at AA( if f they are outspoken. And how could you
wake up and not be outspoken?) Try speaking up at an Alanon meeting
that you dont believe its a disease and see how well received that is.


What AA seems to do is change "surface behaviour" .. But that is
definetly not the same as finding salvation.


And there are more problems than you think. AA is totally accepting of
homosexuality as are most AA's. The new 4th edition of The Big Book of
AA contains the story of an unrepentant gay activist Alcoholic. Thats a

very liberal and very wicked position.


Most AA's believe that alcoholism is a physical problem. Its not, but
they have been hypnotized by AA literature and constant repetition at
meetings to believe it is. I have never yet met one AA who accepted
this false belief and then later realized it wasnt true. There must be
one somewhere but I can tell you they are very rare.


I dont think AA helps people as much as you do


Alanon Member:


I agree with what your saying, and if it were not for being able to
connect with others in the program who I share some of the same core
values with, I would not bother going to the meetings any more. What I
like doing more than anything in these groups is just talking to others

from my own heart, and being able to connect in a way that is not so
superficial.


My response:


I have no problem with that. But it seems superficial to me that the
truth or lack thereof of the "disease concept" cant be discussed.


************************************************** ************************************************

At that point the discussion about Alanon, AA, and the "disease
concept" ended.


http://Christianrecovery.blogspot.com

So, can I gather from this that you do not agree that alcoholism is a
disease or at the least an allergy? If so, can I ask how you explain
the occasional use by some versus the destructive use by others.

Starvin'Marv wrote:
> So, can I gather from this that you do not agree that alcoholism is a
> disease or at the least an allergy? If so, can I ask how you explain
> the occasional use by some versus the destructive use by others.
>

So, just wondering...I've been away from AA for 15 years....when did
this allergy idea become prevalent. I don't remember it back when.

I did discover, during that time, that I am in fact allergic to yeast
and mold, along with some other things. And there is some literature
regarding people who are allergic to a certain food will also seek it
out, as withdrawing from it causes other discomfort.

Is there some literature on this?

Just not me wrote:

> So, just wondering...I've been away from AA for 15 years....when did
> this allergy idea become prevalent. I don't remember it back when.

>
> Is there some literature on this?

Its in the book. Dr's Opinion I think. So it has been around as long as
the book has.

>
>> So, just wondering...I've been away from AA for 15 years....when did
>> this allergy idea become prevalent. I don't remember it back when.
>
>>
>> Is there some literature on this?
>
> Its in the book. Dr's Opinion I think. So it has been around as long as
> the book has.




Some people eat strawberries and get hives.

When I drink, I break out in stupid.

The founders had strange senses of humor.

If you don't understand the analogy yet.......

Keep comin' back.