"Kai" <soberon@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message news:<bd68f3$cl4$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> >> As opposed to "honest religious fanatics", of course.
> >>
> >> Kai
> >
> > That's a funny come-back, but actually, yes, Kai.
> >
> > Think about the hard-core Bible-beating fundamentalist
> > religious fanatics. They do not lie about what they are --
> > they say straight out front what they believe, and that you
> > will go to Hell if you don't believe the same things, too.
> > They are honest religious fanatics.
> >
> > And then there are the religious cults like Scientology,
> > the Moonies, the Hari Krishnas, Siddha Yoga, 3HO, Heaven's Gate,
> > the People's Temple, and Alcoholics Anonymous, who deceive
> > newcomers and do not tell them the truth about what membership
> > in the group will really entail. They dole out the truth
> > about the cult "by teaspoons, not buckets", as Bill Wilson
> > put it. So they are lying religious fanatics.
>
> Really? Where did you get this classified information about "by teaspoons,
> not buckets" from? Must be a secret document open only to the ones highly
> indoctrinated into the cult, since "Alcoholics Anonymous, who deceive
> newcomers and do not tell them the truth about what membership in the group
> will really entail".
>

It is not classified. You haven't been reading the A.A.
history much, have you? This is Bill Wilson's history of
A.A.:

'When first contacted, most alcoholics just wanted to
find sobriety, nothing else. They clung to their other
defects, letting go only little by little.
They simply did not want to get "too good too soon."
The Oxford Groups' absolute concepts -- absolute purity,
absolute honesty, absolute unselfishness, and absolute love
-- were frequently too much for the drunks. These ideas
had to be fed with teaspoons rather than by buckets.'

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, pages 74-75.

So, from the very beginning, Bill Wilson hid the true nature
of the organization.

Bill said it again here:

'Fitz wanted a powerfully religious document;
Henry and Jimmy would have none of it. They wanted a
psychological book which would lure the reader in;
when he finally arrived among us, there would then be
enough time to tip him off about the spiritual character
of our society. ... As umpire of these disputes,
I was obliged to go pretty much down the middle,
writing in spiritual rather than religious or entirely
psychological terms.

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1957), William G. Wilson, page 17.


So, Bill says, he compromised and downplayed the religious
nature of the organization, and only told part of the truth:
"Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization",
and "It's spiritual, not religious", and "Alcoholics Anonymous
requires no beliefs". There would be time enough to reveal
the true nature of A.A. to the newcomers later on, after
they had "finally arrived among us"...

Also note how Bill Wilson blamed his dishonesty on the other
members, rationalizing that he had to do what they wanted.

See
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-ba...html#teaspoons
for more on this.

Also see:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cu...ive_recruiting


* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

i am soooooooooooooo curious about you agent.
what is your story?

--
read and post daily, it works!
rosie

"Kai" <soberon@NOSPAM.luukku.com> wrote in message news:<bdbdda$ada$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> Agent_Orange wrote:
> >
> > It is not classified. You haven't been reading the A.A.
> > history much, have you? This is Bill Wilson's history of
> > A.A.:
>
> You haven't been reading the history of sarcasm much, have you? How can
> something be simultaneously both a hidden truth that deceives the newcomers,
> and written in plain language for all to read and even published by the same
> entity you accuse of deceiving newcomers by having hidden it?
>
> Guess who published "Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age"? Not very good at
> hiding their hidden motives them AAs, are they.
>
> Kai

You are deliberately overlooking the fact that
newcomers are not told what is in A.A. Comes of Age
or the other more obscure literature. It isn't a
"hidden truth", it just isn't mentioned to newcomers.

You are also overlooking that fact that Wilson's
candid description, in A.A.C.O.A, of how he deceived
newcomers does not change the fact that he did it.

Heck, Bill Wilson even taught the recruiters, in
Chapter 7 of the Big Book, not to mention the Big Book
to prospects, so that they wouldn't know how the
recruiting scam worked.

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

"Kai" <soberon@*NOSPAM*luukku.com> wrote in message news:<bdcv06$ncm$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
>
> And all the while you still don't quite grasp that the fact that AA itself has
> published and even endorses newcomers to read the books containing the
> information you accuse AA of hiding from the newcomers pretty much renders your
> whole argument meaningless.
>
> Kai

I did not accuse A.A. of hiding information from newcomers
permanently.
I said that A.A. practices deceptive recruiting, and does
not tell newcomers what membership in the group really entails.
They only learn all of the gory details later.
You, for instance, still haven't learned everything.
You haven't even read Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, or
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, have you? If you had,
you would know the quotes I was referring to.

You really have quite a case of minimization and denial going there.
Here are Bill Wilson's instructions to recruiters, straight
out of the Big Book:

"If you are satisfied that he is a real alcoholic, begin to dwell on
the hopeless feature of the malady. Show him, from your own
experience, how the queer mental condition surrounding that first
drink prevents normal functioning of the will power. Don't, at this
stage, refer to this book, unless he has seen it and wishes to discuss
it."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 92.

"When dealing with such a person [an agnostic or atheist], you had
better use everyday language to describe spiritual principles. There
is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain
theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be
confused. Don't raise such issues, no matter what your own convictions
are."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 93.

"Show him that as alcoholics, the writers of the [A.A.] book
understand. Tell him some of the interesting stories you have read. If
you think he will be shy of a spiritual remedy, ask him to look at the
chapter on alcoholism. Then perhaps he will be interested enough to
continue."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Working With Others,
pages 112-113.

If you think that he won't buy faith healing, then hide the religious
part of the program by only showing him the other stuff...

"To some people we need not, and probably should not emphasize the
spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At
the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an
end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum
service to God..."
The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 6, Into Action,
pages 76-77.

"Our real purpose..." How can you deny it?

Bill Wilson instructs the recruiters:
"Don't tell too much truth too fast. Don't tell him about
the faith healing part, or the cult religion.
Just tell the prospect what he wants to hear, to keep him
coming back. Save the unpleasant stuff for later, after
you have him thoroughly hooked. Only then will he find
out that the real purpose of the program is to suck him
into the cult and turn him into a religious fanatic just
like the rest of us..."

That routine is called deceptive recruiting.

Oh by the way, I have investigated A.A., for years.
That is why I have contempt for it.

* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shroedinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

> Oh by the way, I have investigated A.A., for years.
> That is why I have contempt for it.
>
> * agent_orange@linuxmail.org *




my question;

WHY?????????????????

"rosie readandpost" <readandpost@REMOVETHISyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<u_KKa.157763$jT4.2796820@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com>...
> > Oh by the way, I have investigated A.A., for years.
> > That is why I have contempt for it.
> >
> > * agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
>
>
>
>
> my question;
>
> WHY?????????????????

Why? I wrote it all down. Start with the introduction, and
then just continue down the menu.

http://aorange1.tripod.com/

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

Agent_Orange wrote:
> "Kai" <soberon@*NOSPAM*luukku.com> wrote in message
> news:<bdfitm$arl$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
>> Talk about denial. You even amke a point of emphasizing the fact that the
> quotes
>> are "straight out of the Big Book", and still you keep saying AA hides this
>> information from the newcomers. The irony is thick in these parts this time
>> of
>> year...
>>
>> Kai
>
> You keep ignoring that fact that Bill Wilson instucted recruiters
> to NOT mention the Big Book in the beginning.
> And DO NOT show him the faith healing parts of the book, if
> you think he won't like faith healing.

That contempt of newcomers you display is bothering me. Why is it that you seem
to consider every AA newcomer an illiterate idiot incapable of taking any care
of him/herself, even when at the mercy of clearly the most savage cultists known
to man? Don't you think someone should be guiding these poor people? Can you
spell sponsor?

Kai

"Kai" <soberon@*NOSPAM*luukku.com> wrote in message news:<bdi41c$a53$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...

[CULT message 45]
> That contempt of newcomers you display is bothering me. Why is it that you seem
> to consider every AA newcomer an illiterate idiot incapable of taking any care
> of him/herself, even when at the mercy of clearly the most savage cultists known
> to man? Don't you think someone should be guiding these poor people? Can you
> spell sponsor?
>
> Kai


What is bothering you is the fact that you just lost the argument, so you
have changed the subject and are now attempting a lame ad hominem attack.
Your inept attempt at reversal of reality is very transparent.
That's three propaganda tricks in a row:
Create a diversion:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-pr...da.html#divert
Ad Hominem:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-pr...tml#ad_hominem
and Reversal of Reality (with touches of Psychological Projection):
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-cu...html#ca_denial


I do not have contempt for the newcomers. I feel a lot of
sympathy for them. I know how they feel because I was one of
them, 2 1/2 years ago. People who are freshly detoxed *are*
vulnerable, shakey, cloudy-headed, and feeling confused. And
that is when the vultures from the recovery cults start
circling, looking for fresh meat.

And no, the freshly detoxed people surely don't need sponsors
to victimize them or to indoctrinate them. In fact, one recent
study of sponsor/sponsee relationships showed that the newcomers
did not benefit from having sponsors at all, but the sponsors
benefited from having the sponsees. So the old-timers were
just using the newcomers for their own gratification. See this:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-ef...ml#sponsorship

Bill Wilson's attitude towards newcomers and alcoholics in
general was one of nothing but hateful contempt.
See the web page:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-us_stupid_drunks.html
for a long list of ways that Bill Wilson had contempt for
alcoholics.

And A.A. still displays a lot of that attitude today. It's
just like Jack Nicholson's line about, "The truth? You can't
handle the truth!" All of chapter 7 of the Big Book is nothing
but a manual for how recruiters should play mind games on the
new prospects, and deceive them in order to fool them into
joining A.A.. See this web page for all of the details:
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-recruit.html


* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *

Agent_Orange wrote:
> "Kai" <soberon@*NOSPAM*luukku.com> wrote in message
> news:<bdi41c$a53$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
>
> [CULT message 45]
>> That contempt of newcomers you display is bothering me. Why is it that you
>> seem
>> to consider every AA newcomer an illiterate idiot incapable of taking any
>> care
>> of him/herself, even when at the mercy of clearly the most savage cultists
>> known
>> to man? Don't you think someone should be guiding these poor people? Can you
>> spell sponsor?
>>
>> Kai
>
>
> What is bothering you is the fact that you just lost the argument,

I did?

> so you
> have changed the subject and are now attempting a lame ad hominem attack.

I did that too?

> Your inept attempt at reversal of reality is very transparent.

And that one? I'm in serious denial, obviously.

All this time I thought I just gave you a run for your money out of pure
kindness. It's clear you just cannot understand that by using information you've
found in AA publications, that AA itself endorses every member to read, as
sources for the claim that AA deceives nwcomers and withholds information from
them, you keep on proving just the opposite of which you wish to. But I'm happy
about it, in a way.

Kai

"Kai" <soberon@*NOSPAM*luukku.com> wrote in message news:<bdm402$9v1$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> Agent_Orange wrote:
> > "Kai" <soberon@*NOSPAM*luukku.com> wrote in message
> > news:<bdi41c$a53$1@phys-news1.kolumbus.fi>...
> >
> > What is bothering you is the fact that you just lost the argument,
>
> I did?
>
> > so you
> > have changed the subject and are now attempting a lame ad hominem attack.
>
> I did that too?
>
> > Your inept attempt at reversal of reality is very transparent.
>
> And that one? I'm in serious denial, obviously.
>
> All this time I thought I just gave you a run for your money out of pure
> kindness. It's clear you just cannot understand that by using information you've
> found in AA publications, that AA itself endorses every member to read, as
> sources for the claim that AA deceives nwcomers and withholds information from
> them, you keep on proving just the opposite of which you wish to. But I'm happy
> about it, in a way.
>
> Kai


Ah, so you haven't quit and given up on the discussion of deceptive
recruiting practices in A.A.? Good. As Sherlock Holmes said, "The
game is afoot."

You don't seem to be able to understand that information can be
printed for the benefit of recruiters and old-timers, which is
not shown to beginners until they qualify as "more experienced".

A.A. is just loaded with such deceptive recruiting and bait-and-switch
stunts, in spite of Bill Wilson's exhortations to grasp a manner
of living that requires "rigorous honesty" (Big Book, page 59).
This is Wilson's idea of "honesty":

Bill Wilson taught that the recruiter is to dole out the
truth about the Alcoholics Anonymous program only a little
bit of the truth at a time, only as much as the prospect
can handle, just a teaspoonful or less, but never more:

"When first contacted, most alcoholics just wanted to find
sobriety, nothing else. They clung to their other defects,
letting go only little by little. They simply did not want
to get "too good too soon." The Oxford Groups' absolute
concepts -- absolute purity, absolute honesty, absolute
unselfishness, and absolute love -- were frequently too
much for the drunks. These ideas had to be fed with
teaspoons rather than by buckets."
-- Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson,
pages 74-75.

Notice that just wanting to quit drinking was not nearly
good enough for Bill Wilson -- the newcomers to A.A. also
had to share Bill's religious beliefs -- which were
basically Oxford Group Buchmanism -- but Bill Wilson hid
that fact from the newcomers. And then Bill even sneared at
the newcomers who do not wish to join his cult religion, by
saying that they didn't want to get too good too soon.

In chapter 7 of the Big Book, Wilson told recruiters not to
alarm new prospects by talking about the religious nature
of the Alcoholics Anonymous program:

"There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against
certain theological terms and conceptions about which he
may already be confused. Don't raise such issues, no matter
what your own convictions are."
-- The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William Wilson, Working With
Others, page 93.

(Note how Bill implied that non-members were "confused"
about religion.)

"To some people we need not, and probably should not
emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We
might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put
our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our
real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service
to God..."
-- The Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson,
Chapter 6, Into Action, pages 76-77.

So, finally, the real purpose of Alcoholics Anonymous is to
get people to Seek and Do the Will of God. Quitting
drinking seems to be a secondary goal. But they don't tell
new recruits about that in the beginning.

Hiding the true nature of A.A. has been the standard
recruiting strategy since the very earliest days of
Alcoholics Anonymous. The A.A. history book Alcoholics
Anonymous Comes Of Age describes the debate surrounding the
creation of the Big Book, Alcoholics Anonymous, where the
early members debated about how much truth to tell to the
public:

"Fitz wanted a powerfully religious document; Henry and
Jimmy would have none of it. They wanted a psychological
book which would lure the reader in; when he finally
arrived among us, there would then be enough time to tip
him off about the spiritual character of our society. ...
As umpire of these disputes, I was obliged to go pretty
much down the middle, writing in spiritual rather than
religious or entirely psychological terms."
-- Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age (1957), William G.
Wilson, page 17.

So, Bill says, he compromised and downplayed the religious
nature of the organization, and only told part of the
truth in the Big Book, in order to "lure the reader in".

See the file on "The Bait-and-Switch Con Game"
http://aorange1.tripod.com/orange-bait-switch.html
for many more ways in which A.A. hides from newcomers what
membership in A.A. will really entail, including:

== First, A.A. is just a nice neighborhood quit-drinking
self-help group, and then it's a hard-core fundamentalist
religion.

== First, they will tell you that you can "Take what you
want, and leave the rest." Then they will tell you that you
can't ever leave.

== First, the bait offered to the prospective new member
("prospect") is a promise of complete religious freedom,
and then the switch comes later, when the new member finds
that he must accept the A.A. beliefs and discard his own.

== First, the goal is to quit drinking, and then the goal
is to believe in God and serve God.

== First, any religious beliefs are okay, and then only Mr.
Wilson's religious beliefs are good enough.

== First it's "Surrender to God" and then it's "surrender
to some A.A. members". (Your sponsor will interpret your
"Guidance from God for you", and tell you what to do.)

== First, it's any "God as we understood Him", and then
it's "You don't understand God."

== The Steps say, in Step Three, that we only need to believe
in "God as we understand Him," that we have great freedom
in defining our "God", so that the program can accommodate
all religions and all faiths. But the subsequent steps
become increasingly specific about just Who and What God
is, and what God must do, so that by Step Twelve, A.A. has
precisely defined their version of God. -- And you must
believe in that micro-managing, wish-granting version of
God, or else the Twelve Steps cannot possibly work.

That should give you enough to chew on.

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* Heisenberg said, "I'm not really sure if *
* that even was Shrödinger's cat. I think *
* he might have used somebody else's cat..." *