Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
for help, and many other people dislike the religious nature of
12-step programs. If you (or anyone that you know) have an addictions
problem and are seeking secular sources of help, please be aware of
the following (listed in alphabetical order):

MODERATION MANAGEMENT: http://www.moderation.org/whatisMM.html MM,
founded in 1994, suggests guidelines and limits for moderate drinking,
and provides professionally advised meetings for those attempting to
moderate. MM provides a supportive mutual-help environment that
encourages people who are concerned about their drinking to take
action to cut back or quit drinking before drinking problems become
severe. For groups in your area call 1-425-483-5293.

SECULAR ORGANIZATIONS FOR SOBRIETY (SOS) a.k.a. "Save Our Selves"
SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug
addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual content of widely
available 12-Step programs. SOS takes a reasonable, secular approach
to recovery and maintains that sobriety is a separate issue from
religion or spirituality. SOS credits the individual for achieving and
maintaining his or her own sobriety, without reliance on any "Higher
Power." SOS respects recovery in any form regardless of the path by
which it is achieved. It is not opposed to or in competition with any
other recovery programs. http://www.secularsobriety.org/

SOS International: http://www.sossobriety.org/homepage.htm

**LifeRing Secular Recovery (LSR) LSR is a non-religious self-help
recovery organization for individuals who choose abstinence from
alcohol and other addictive drugs, or who are in relationships where
chemical dependency is a problem. The basic philosophy of LifeRing
Secular Recovery is summarized in the Three "S" -- Sobriety,
Secularity, Self-Help. http://www.unhooked.com/lsr/faq.htm

S.M.A.R.T. Recovery: http://www.smartrecovery.org SMART (Self
Management And Recovery Training), founded in 1994, is based on the
principles of Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy. SMART is a
time-limited free, professionally advised abstinence program based on
the theory that addictions are learned behaviors caused by faulty
self-defeating thinking, and that one can learn to change that
thinking and also, with practice and repetition, change the behaviors
resulting from it. For groups in your area call (216) 292-0220.

RATIONAL RECOVERY: http://www.rational.org/Q%26A.html RR was founded
in 1986 by Jack and Lois Trimpey in response to the lack of choice in
the field of addictions. RR is based on Addictive Voice Recognition
Technique (AVRT), and is a total abstinence program. NOTE: RR no
longer supports groups other than interaction on the web. As far as
programs go, it is basically an off the shelf self help book with a
web site. Great for self starters!

WOMEN FOR SOBRIETY: http://www.womenforsobriety.org WFS is the
oldest--founded in 1975--of the modern (non-12-step) programs, and is
dedicated to helping women overcome alcoholism and other addictions.
WFS accepts the disease model and is an abstinence program. The "New
Life" program helps women achieve sobriety and sustain ongoing
recovery. For groups in your area call 1-800-333-1606.
--
to reply, remove 4u

In article <l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com>, Markus
<markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
> for help...

That's really not at all an objective statement. It's no more than a
personally biased "belief" at best, with no other unequivocal basis.

However, a great deal of academic, clinical and scientific research has
shown clearly that among the least effective methods and/or sources of
"help" are those that attempt to "educate" or use typical
"cognitive/behavior modification" techniques. Especially those
fashioned from the amateurs representing their own mere personal
beliefs and practices as that. Or those that rely on the
pseudo-"religious" beliefs about mental entities and "beasts" that one
fights and talks to silently within to struggle control of one's own
mind. In fact, that could be regarded as seriously mentally ill.

Virtualoso wrote:
> In article <l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com>, Markus
> <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to
>> them for help...
>
> That's really not at all an objective statement. It's no more than a
> personally biased "belief" at best, with no other unequivocal basis.
>
> However, a great deal of academic, clinical and scientific research
> has shown clearly that among the least effective methods and/or
> sources of "help" are those that attempt to "educate" or use typical
> "cognitive/behavior modification" techniques. Especially those
> fashioned from the amateurs representing their own mere personal
> beliefs and practices as that. Or those that rely on the
> pseudo-"religious" beliefs about mental entities and "beasts" that one
> fights and talks to silently within to struggle control of one's own
> mind. In fact, that could be regarded as seriously mentally ill.

Can agree in regard to being seriously mentally ill. MRT is directed to and
for the person with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. (APD) Most offenders
and inmates suffer from APD. They are not your typical alcoholic, or are
they?

In article <vjm9i3snicdj48@corp.supernews.com>, Gail
<serenity6850_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Virtualoso wrote:
> > In article <l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com>, Markus
> > <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to
> >> them for help...
> >
> > That's really not at all an objective statement. It's no more than a
> > personally biased "belief" at best, with no other unequivocal basis.
> >
> > However, a great deal of academic, clinical and scientific research
> > has shown clearly that among the least effective methods and/or
> > sources of "help" are those that attempt to "educate" or use typical
> > "cognitive/behavior modification" techniques. Especially those
> > fashioned from the amateurs representing their own mere personal
> > beliefs and practices as that. Or those that rely on the
> > pseudo-"religious" beliefs about mental entities and "beasts" that one
> > fights and talks to silently within to struggle control of one's own
> > mind. In fact, that could be regarded as seriously mentally ill.
>
> Can agree in regard to being seriously mentally ill. MRT is directed to and
> for the person with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. (APD) Most offenders
> and inmates suffer from APD. They are not your typical alcoholic, or are
> they?

I'm unsure just what the basis might be for anyone to figure that a
"personality disorder" is any "thing" more actual than alcoholism, or
that one might "really be" the other. However, I do notice that people
that like the concept of "personality disorder" tend to pin yet more on
to the notion.

Whatever "personality disorder" might be, it may be that some
alcoholics might also be among those considered as "having that." Just
so, alcoholics number among those that are regarded as "suffering from"
any number of other things. But if and when they do, I see no reason to
presume that that much "means" these are then equivalent.

--
"There are types entirely normal ... except when it comes to alcohol."
- Dr. Silkworth

"Markus" <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com...
> Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
> for help, and many other people dislike the religious nature of
> 12-step programs. If you (or anyone that you know) have an addictions
> problem and are seeking secular sources of help, please be aware of
> the following (listed in alphabetical order):

<snip>

If asked, I would not tell anyone to not follow a Twelve Step programme. Although it's true that it
doesn't work for everyone (one reason being that the person who fails to complete the programme
doesn't put in the work required to do so), it works for many. So far, it works for me. The only
way any person is going to find out whether or not such a programme is going to work for them is to
try it for themselves.

JB

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bhfapc$jqo$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> "Markus" <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com...
> > Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
> > for help, and many other people dislike the religious nature of
> > 12-step programs. If you (or anyone that you know) have an addictions
> > problem and are seeking secular sources of help, please be aware of
> > the following (listed in alphabetical order):
>
> <snip>
>
> If asked, I would not tell anyone to not follow a Twelve Step programme.
Although it's true that it
> doesn't work for everyone (one reason being that the person who fails to
complete the programme
> doesn't put in the work required to do so), it works for many. So far, it
works for me. The only
> way any person is going to find out whether or not such a programme is
going to work for them is to
> try it for themselves.
JB

This guy and Stumpy have been doing this obsessively for years. Most AA
folks have nothing at all against other methods of recovery, but these guys
sure have a problem with AA.
I always figure it's low class to knock the alternatives.....

>
> JB
>
>

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:31:12 -0700, Virtualoso <virtualoso@dot.com>
wrote:

>In article <l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com>, Markus
><markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
>> for help...
>
>That's really not at all an objective statement. It's no more than a
>personally biased "belief" at best, with no other unequivocal basis.
>

Virt just wants to argue. Markus's statement is fine. Virt, why do you
say it is
> no more than a
>>personally biased "belief" at best???
It is a fact that all programs do not work for all people.

You write well Virt. Not factual or true, but you have a good
vocabulary.

Joe Milon

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:38:51 GMT, Markus <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>Twelve-step programs do not work well for many people who come to them
>for help

Of those who actually do come to AA for help and are willing to do
what is suggested, it seems to work remarkably well.

>If you (or anyone that you know) have an addictions
>problem and are seeking secular sources of help, please be aware of
>the following (listed in alphabetical order):

You could simply have posted the list without displaying your personal
agenda at the top.

>MODERATION MANAGEMENT: http://www.moderation.org/whatisMM.html MM,
>founded in 1994, suggests guidelines and limits for moderate drinking,
>and provides professionally advised meetings for those attempting to
>moderate. MM provides a supportive mutual-help environment that
>encourages people who are concerned about their drinking to take
>action to cut back or quit drinking before drinking problems become
>severe. For groups in your area call 1-425-483-5293.

Don't forget to ask them about their founder, Audrey Kishline.

>SECULAR ORGANIZATIONS FOR SOBRIETY (SOS) a.k.a. "Save Our Selves"
>SOS is an alternative recovery method for those alcoholics or drug
>addicts who are uncomfortable with the spiritual content of widely
>available 12-Step programs.

Is this their message, or yours? If it's theirs, it seems sad that
they feel any need to mention any other program at all.

>RATIONAL RECOVERY: http://www.rational.org/Q%26A.html RR was founded
>in 1986 by Jack and Lois Trimpey in response to the lack of choice in
>the field of addictions. RR is based on Addictive Voice Recognition
>Technique (AVRT), and is a total abstinence program.

Apparently Trimpey has abandoned much of the "Rational" parts of his
Rational program. Thus, if you want a real irrational session of
bashing other methods, apparently this is the place to go. Nobody
seems willing to talk about how they handle sobriety, or even whether
they have any. Which is all a shame, because the rational message
could be quite useful.

>WOMEN FOR SOBRIETY: http://www.womenforsobriety.org WFS is the
>oldest--founded in 1975--of the modern (non-12-step) programs, and is
>dedicated to helping women overcome alcoholism and other addictions.

I checked their web site out a couple of years ago, and the program
seemed to make a lot of sense. The sexism seems a shame though (and,
before anyone else points it out, I can understand the sexism that
many women feel when they read the AA book, though AA meetings
nowadays are not run that way).

--
Blue Moon

"Markus" <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:cihnjvk5ip25v11v7nkqb2l8u5aaha4403@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:50:15 GMT, "stuart" <fred@outerspace.jetsons>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Markus" <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >news:l10mjv8geacu70ikmmp0cqf0q4gc54s38c@4ax.com.. .
> >
> >The non-spiritual aspect of the many recovery programs out there don't
> >always work for everyone, so I would be delighted to point you in the
> >direction of Alcoholics Anonymous.
> >
> >Thank You
> >
>
> If I had really written the above it would have started with "The
> non-religious aspect of...". But I didn't write the above. I guess
> fraud is all I can expect from a person who signs MD to his name when
> in fact he has never earned such a title.

You seem to know as much about me as you do AA.;-)


>
> -Markus
> --
> to reply, remove 4u

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:33:13 GMT, "stuart" <nospam@freds.com> wrote:


>You seem to know as much about me as you do AA.;-)

Instead of being flippant, please cut and paste where I posted
something erroneous about AA.

I will concede that I know more about AA than I do you. Only because
I haven't given you the research time as I have AA. Keep using my
name fraudulently and that will change however.

BTW: I was unaware that to be a chiropractor also required an MD.
Something unique to Canada? Or did you go on and get your MD? Are you
now practicing medicine? Are you going to answer honestly?

If true, kudo's in advance and I stand corrected. Feel free to fly
your happy ass down here to Chicago and I will buy you a coffee, hell,
a latte even. But um, just don't try and land at Meigs Field ;-)

-Markus
--
to reply, remove 4u