I have read many posts that rubbish AA, some from people who found it didn't work for them and
others from those with no history of involvement with AA. As someone who gave up drinking just over
8 weeks ago and hopes never to drink again, because it's not in my best interests to do so, I do
not find such posts at all helpful.

If you want to persuade people like me that any group you belong to can offer me more hope of
staying off drink for ever than AA can, please use your posts on alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
to argue your case. I subscribe to this NG. It is not an AA group and I for one would welcome info
on any method that has proved to be able to keep people like me who need to stay off drink, off
drink.

AA tells me that I must do whatever it takes to stay sober. I take this to mean that I don't have
to use only AA to achieve my goal And I don't. So, if you can continually prove to me that your
methods work, then should all that I'm doing to stay sober fail me, I'll know where to turn.

Hoping for the best.

JB

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bh3chr$g08$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

> I have read many posts that rubbish AA, some from people who found it
didn't work for them and
> others from those with no history of involvement with AA.

Posts that rubbish AA? I think if you read a little more carefully you will
see that most folks whom have spoken critically of AA, such as myself,
simply point out the lies that AA and it's minions will pass off as fact.
So in that regard, AA rubbishes itself. If you wish to be part of such an
organization then by all means, go for it.

Let me continue....

I know personally a gal who believes that the "purification" program of
narconon is the best thing since sliced bread. After printing out some
literature in opposition to it and giving it to her, she took it to the
"org" where they discounted it, and anything else written on the internet,
as lies. She chose to close her eyes--and mind--and throw the literature
away. She continues to tell anyone who will listen about how great Narconon
is. If it were not for people exposing this obvious fraud for what it is,
then who knows how many folks would be sucked in by this scam (even though
it appears the NY fire dept has most recently been).

There are folks out there who would say that narconon worked for a couple of
folks, so why not leave them alone? I ask: "What is wrong with pointing
out the truth?"

So you see, it isn't just about claiming one program is better than another
or something did or did not work. It is also about pointing out the rubbish
that AA tries to float onto society as being some profound truth.

> As someone who gave up drinking just over 8 weeks ago
> and hopes never to drink again, because it's not in my best
> interests to do so,

You "hope" to never drink again? Or do you "want" to never drink again? Are
you willing to make that commitment? Then do so. Simple as that. However,
it is understood some folks never learned how to use their own rational
facets in regards to defeating an addiction, and could use a small amount of
help training themselves to do so.

> I do not find such posts at all helpful.

Well, you have seen both the "glowing" posts in favor of AA, and you have
also been afforded a critical review. Something that wasn't as prevalent as
when I first got clean in '94.

> If you want to persuade people like me that any group you belong to can
offer me more hope of
> staying off drink for ever than AA can, please use your posts on
alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
> to argue your case.

I am not going to try and persuade you to join any group. The idea In My
Opinion (IMO) is that the focus shouldn't be on joining any kind of group,
but rather to find the tools necessary for you to stay off of
drink--permanently--and without a learned and gained dependency upon a group
or program as a result.

> AA tells me that I must do whatever it takes to stay sober.

I'd say at this point you need to quit worrying about what some group has to
say about anything and start worrying about what YOUR true wants and desires
are in life and pursue such. You do have this power, all on your own.

Remember: Having an open mind doesn't also mean you have to abandon all that
you believe in, or that of which defines you as an autonomous human being.

However, try reading some of these groups:

http://www.rational.org/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi

http://forums.delphiforums.com/lifering/start

http://www.smartrecovery.org/

Feel free to ask any questions.

-Markus
--
remove 4u to reply

"catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:bh3chr$g08$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> I have read many posts that rubbish AA, some from people who found it
didn't work for them and
> others from those with no history of involvement with AA. As someone who
gave up drinking just over
> 8 weeks ago and hopes never to drink again, because it's not in my best
interests to do so, I do
> not find such posts at all helpful.
>
> If you want to persuade people like me that any group you belong to can
offer me more hope of
> staying off drink for ever than AA can, please use your posts on
alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
> to argue your case. I subscribe to this NG. It is not an AA group and I
for one would welcome info
> on any method that has proved to be able to keep people like me who need
to stay off drink, off
> drink.
>
> AA tells me that I must do whatever it takes to stay sober. I take this
to mean that I don't have
> to use only AA to achieve my goal And I don't. So, if you can continually
prove to me that your
> methods work, then should all that I'm doing to stay sober fail me, I'll
know where to turn.
>
> Hoping for the best.
>
> JB

Nicely put JB. As soon as anyone claims to have a direct line to the creator
of the universe, that person has the potential to cause great havoc with
others.
I attend AA and work the steps, but also I do a lot of other stuff which
exists outside the realm of AA completely and more in the vien of RR and
some other ideas.
Took me a long long time to get past some of the detriments in AA, mainly
some of the more zealous types in AA, to start understanding the program
enough that it worked. I highly recommend listening to the Joe and Charlie
series of tapes in their entirety.
And do lots of other healthy stuff with your life. Everything that helps, I
figure.

Hi JB,

>If you want to persuade people like me that any group you belong to can offer me more hope of
>staying off drink for ever than AA can, please use your posts on alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
>to argue your case. I subscribe to this NG. It is not an AA group and I for one would welcome info
>on any method that has proved to be able to keep people like me who need to stay off drink, off
>drink.

You're now treading the path here that I trod about 2 - 2 1/2 years
ago. I wish you success in getting any rational explanation about
"recovery" from any of those to whom your inquiry is directed. Even
proponents of rational recovery surprised me with their remarkable
lack of rationality.

In a way, such people had the opposite to their desired effect...
through offering no seemingly viable alternative to AA, they were
effectively passing the message that AA really was the way to go if
you don't want the bitter, twisted thinking that's portrayed. One
such AA antagonist was doing more AA 12th Step work than I possibly
could! Not sure he liked it much when I told him so, though.

--
Blue Moon

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:37:18 GMT, "Markus" <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

>Posts that rubbish AA? I think if you read a little more carefully you will
>see that most folks whom have spoken critically of AA, such as myself,
>simply point out the lies that AA and it's minions will pass off as fact.

Yeah, they "rubbish" AA. I've seen none of the allegations of "lies"
about AA backed up by hard evidence, and that's not for want of
looking. Much of it is smoke-and-mirrors stuff. Some of it is
downright bullshit. Most is certainly based on personal opinion
passed off as general fact.

>I know personally a gal who believes that the "purification" program of
>narconon is the best thing since sliced bread. After printing out some
>literature in opposition to it and giving it to her, she took it to the
>"org" where they discounted it, and anything else written on the internet,
>as lies.

Perhaps they were right? Did you consider that? Or perhaps not.
This isn't narconon, and there's only your word here for what was
said/done. As for "anything else written on the internet" I find that
hard to believe as narconon stuff is probably on the internet
somewhere. Maybe one or two individuals decided that the internet is
a waste of time, but that's not to say it's any group or
organisational opinion. I've heard similar in AA, but it's definitely
not an AA opinion... it's not even the opinion of the group where the
individuals expressed their own personal views.

>There are folks out there who would say that narconon worked for a couple of
>folks, so why not leave them alone? I ask: "What is wrong with pointing
>out the truth?"

Nothing at all. Just make sure it's the truth, not just warped
perception or so clouded by opinion as to make any truth almost
meaningless.

>The idea In My
>Opinion (IMO) is that the focus shouldn't be on joining any kind of group,
>but rather to find the tools necessary for you to stay off of
>drink--permanently--and without a learned and gained dependency upon a group
>or program as a result.

So how's she supposed to "find the tools necessary" without looking
for, and using, those tools? And how would she know what tools work,
or how to use the tools when apparently nobody else is willing to show
how they're used? That's like dumping an electrician's toolbox in the
hands of a schoolkid and telling him to rewire a house. Or, even
worse, simply telling the schoolkid to go find his own tools for
rewiring the house at the local hardware store without so much as a
shopping list of what to buy.

>I'd say at this point you need to quit worrying about what some group has to
>say about anything and start worrying about what YOUR true wants and desires
>are in life and pursue such. You do have this power, all on your own.

So there's no need for any such "tools" at all? Make your mind up!

--
Blue Moon

On Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:30:18 +0100, "catsruleok"
<catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>I have read many posts that rubbish AA, some from people who found it didn't work for them and
>others from those with no history of involvement with AA. As someone who gave up drinking just over
>8 weeks ago and hopes never to drink again, because it's not in my best interests to do so, I do
>not find such posts at all helpful.
>
>If you want to persuade people like me that any group you belong to can offer me more hope of
>staying off drink for ever than AA can, please use your posts on alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism
>to argue your case. I subscribe to this NG. It is not an AA group and I for one would welcome info
>on any method that has proved to be able to keep people like me who need to stay off drink, off
>drink.
>
>AA tells me that I must do whatever it takes to stay sober. I take this to mean that I don't have
>to use only AA to achieve my goal And I don't. So, if you can continually prove to me that your
>methods work, then should all that I'm doing to stay sober fail me, I'll know where to turn.
>
>Hoping for the best.

I have been fortunate and been dry now for 3 years. I was a hopeless
case and I only stopped when my body packed up. I do not think there
are any 'one size fits all' solutions and now I have stopped I realise
that there many types of alcoholic. (see Dr.Moody, first chapter at
http://www.smicker.co.uk) he explains it very concisely. I am 60 and I
could never have stopped if I wasn't stopped by my body packing up and
leaving me alive. I believe you have to decide why you are an
alcoholic before you can tackle it and then if you want to beat it
enough to do just about anything to do so. After 60 years I do not
know any answers but I hope you find yours. Good luck.
smicker

In article <iQdZa.3085$Ih1.1294989@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com >, Markus
<markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> "catsruleok" <catsruleok@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:bh3chr$g08$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > I have read many posts that rubbish AA, some from people who found it
> didn't work for them and
> > others from those with no history of involvement with AA.
>
> Posts that rubbish AA? I think if you read a little more carefully you will
> see that most folks whom have spoken critically of AA, such as myself,
> simply point out the lies that AA and it's minions will pass off as fact.
> So in that regard, AA rubbishes itself. If you wish to be part of such an
> organization then by all means, go for it.
>
> Let me continue....
>
> I know personally a gal who believes that the "purification" program of
> narconon is ... [snip] ... I ask: "What is wrong with pointing
> out the truth?"

The truth pointed out here, is that Narcanon isn't AA.

> So you see, it isn't just about claiming one program is better than another
> or something did or did not work. It is also about pointing out the rubbish...

The rubbish is that you continue to attempt to "smear" AA by citing
entirely other things.

In article <ZleZa.25682$%T.3103@edtnps84>, stuart
<fred@outerspace.jetsons> wrote:

> I attend AA and work the steps, but also I do a lot of other stuff which
> exists outside the realm of AA completely and more in the vien of RR and
> some other ideas.

What an arsenal. Having trouble making less work, or you just don't
want to?

In article <8hvajvg9l2ms6sog6a15jf7b54k5u9dmph@4ax.com>, smicker
<rossprat@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I do not think there
> are any 'one size fits all' solutions

Except for this one, eh? '-)

"Blue Moon" <


| Yeah, they "rubbish" AA. I've seen none of the allegations of "lies"
| about AA backed up by hard evidence, and that's not for want of
| looking.

Oh hogwash and rubbish. It most certaily is from lack of looking. Why only
just recently I provided hard fast evidence that AA via Wilson promoted AA
to the US Senate, The Bravo Channel even now is airing 30 Second AA
promotional spots, and the orignal AA and their Radio Spot fiasco are ALL
signs that AA does and did promote itself. AA claims that it doesn't
promote itself. Ergo AA lies and has been lying about that from it's
inception.

AA claims that it's not religious yet even a cursory read of it's doctrinal
publication shows that for a clear and unambiguous lie.