Point taken, both ways, guys.

"Moonraker" <moonrak9@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:iTBZa.14247$AO3.10422@fe02.atl2.webusenet.com ...
>
> "Virtualoso" <virtualoso@dot.com> wrote in message
> news:100820031737211000%virtualoso@dot.com...
> >> > Translation: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!
> >
> > Oh, not at all an adequate translation. Feed the poor, hungry devils,
> > indeed. But only with nourishing, proper fare. They may better be able
> > to get well that way.
>
>
> Feeding truth and logic to these parasites only makes them vomit all over
> the insides of your monitor.
>
>
>
>
>

"Jay" <jay613@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3dyZa.438$l96.106484@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> There can be no doubt that AA had a religious bent. However, I believe
> members who do not believe in God are not only accepted but instructed to
> seek whatever alternate higher power they like, even if it's just their
salt
> shaker at home.
>
------------------------

Let me put it plainly: a belief in a "higher power" that controls your
your behavior, your "character", and your destiny is a RELIGIOUS belief. If
that "higher power" is a tree, a doorknob, or "the salt shaker at home",
then the person believing in its control of their destiny is either
delusional, or a follower of a religious belief system that some might term
"idolatry".



> Today, it's not necessary to follow a given religion to be
> a member of AA. Another thing I'd like to know if possible - if AA is
> religious, to which religion is it tied?
>
----------------------

It is tied to the 12-step religion -- the "higher power" belief system,
the "work the steps and God will remove the desire to drink" belief system.
This is a religious belief system. For this reason, federal circuit courts
and state supreme courts have consistently ruled that government coerced
involvement with any 12-step program or 12-step treatment is
unconstitutional, i.e. a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First
Amendment.


> I think it might be more apt to
> say that AA is a spiritual organization than a religious one.
>
-----------------------

The courts have ruled that this artificial distinction is irrelevant
for Establishment Clause purposes.

~Rita

"Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:rLAZa.10230$Pa4.8461@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com. ..
>

>
> Translation: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!
>
----------------------------

Trolls?? TROLLS??!?? YOU are the one crossposting to
alt.recovery.from-12-steps!!! This is a group for people who are reject AA,
who wish to discuss, demystify, and dissect the 12-step belief system. YOU
are the troll on OUR list!!

~Rita

p.s. Agreeing with Virt/Otto/Civizen/Christopher's ludicrous flames shows a
real lack of imagination on your part.

In article <xkMZa.119364$852.58244@twister.nyc.rr.com>, rita
<rita66@webtv.net> wrote:

> It is tied to the 12-step religion ...
> This is a religious belief system. For this reason, federal circuit courts
> and state supreme courts have consistently ruled ...

No, the courts have not ruled "for that reason" of a "12-step
religion." Much less "consistently." Which is why you can't actually
quote even a single one actually saying so.

--
"There are types entirely normal ... except when it comes to alcohol."
- Dr. Silkworth

In article <ykMZa.119365$852.27315@twister.nyc.rr.com>, rita
<rita66@webtv.net> wrote:

> This is a group for people who are reject AA,
> who wish to discuss, demystify, and dissect the 12-step belief system. YOU
> are the troll on OUR list!!

This is a list to discuss "recovery from 12 steps" which may well
include examining the nature of that very concept, and the true basis
for subjective "problems" of that kind. The distinct conceptual and
experiential delusion that there is anything real to so-called "recover
from 12 steps" or that there is any actual, certain way to do so, is
spot on topic, including discussion, demystifications, and dissections
of that very belief - which appears to be "the problem" itself.

Instead, often what's found being promoted in this NG are wildly
anti-scientific beliefs, as well as certain distinct religious beliefs,
such as those found in Satanism, by believers that use this venue and
their own personal religious bigotry to attempt to proselytize these
and conduct adversarial campaigns against other religions, and persons
known or presumed to be involved with them. This is done by merely
speciously asserting that AA "is" equivalent to them, or that any
non-hostile attitude toward AA amounts to them, or just simplisticly
attacking individual persons directly, themselves, otherwise.

These are definitely a form of trolls in this NG. You are among the
ones that certainly do so.

--
"There are types entirely normal ... except when it comes to alcohol."
- Dr. Silkworth

"rita" <rita66@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:ykMZa.119365$852.27315@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> "Moonraker" <fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:rLAZa.10230$Pa4.8461@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com. ..
> >
>
> >
> > Translation: DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!
> >
> ----------------------------
>
> Trolls?? TROLLS??!?? YOU are the one crossposting to
> alt.recovery.from-12-steps!!! This is a group for people who are reject
AA,
> who wish to discuss, demystify, and dissect the 12-step belief system.
YOU
> are the troll on OUR list!!
>
> ~Rita
>
> p.s. Agreeing with Virt/Otto/Civizen/Christopher's ludicrous flames shows
a
> real lack of imagination on your part.
>
>

Uhhhhh?

Who died and left you in charge of where I post?

I merely replied to a cross-post in a thread started by somebody else.

Kiss my ass.

In article <MkNZa.12303$Pa4.3218@fe03.atl2.webusenet.com>, Moonraker
<fuggadaboutit@bellsouth.net> wrote:

> "rita" <rita66@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:ykMZa.119365$852.27315@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> > ...
> > alt.recovery.from-12-steps!!! This is a group for people who are reject
> > AA, who wish to discuss, demystify, and dissect the 12-step belief system.
> > YOU are the troll on OUR list!!

How imaginative.

> > ... a real lack of imagination on your part.

> Uhhhhh?
>
> Who died and left you in charge of where I post?
>
> I merely replied to a cross-post in a thread started by somebody else.
>
> Kiss my ass.

Many of the propositions that there is some "recovery from 12 steps" is
possibly imaginative. But it seems that you're now being subjected to
review by the ARF "originality of thought" committee. Usually the case
in this NG when you don't appear in step with their detrAActor
groupthink doctrine.

Would not call them trolls. Would rather compare them to strangers being
invited into a house from a act of charity and then shits on the dining room
table!
"Virtualoso" <virtualoso@dot.com> wrote in message
news:110820030634399263%virtualoso@dot.com...
> In article <ykMZa.119365$852.27315@twister.nyc.rr.com>, rita
> <rita66@webtv.net> wrote:
>
> > This is a group for people who are reject AA,
> > who wish to discuss, demystify, and dissect the 12-step belief system.
YOU
> > are the troll on OUR list!!
>
> This is a list to discuss "recovery from 12 steps" which may well
> include examining the nature of that very concept, and the true basis
> for subjective "problems" of that kind. The distinct conceptual and
> experiential delusion that there is anything real to so-called "recover
> from 12 steps" or that there is any actual, certain way to do so, is
> spot on topic, including discussion, demystifications, and dissections
> of that very belief - which appears to be "the problem" itself.
>
> Instead, often what's found being promoted in this NG are wildly
> anti-scientific beliefs, as well as certain distinct religious beliefs,
> such as those found in Satanism, by believers that use this venue and
> their own personal religious bigotry to attempt to proselytize these
> and conduct adversarial campaigns against other religions, and persons
> known or presumed to be involved with them. This is done by merely
> speciously asserting that AA "is" equivalent to them, or that any
> non-hostile attitude toward AA amounts to them, or just simplisticly
> attacking individual persons directly, themselves, otherwise.
>
> These are definitely a form of trolls in this NG. You are among the
> ones that certainly do so.
>
> --
> "There are types entirely normal ... except when it comes to alcohol."
> - Dr. Silkworth

That's one answer that applies all over though - one of the really important
ones.

"Virtualoso" <virtualoso@dot.com> wrote in message
news:090820031641027501%virtualoso@dot.com...
> In article <8hvajvg9l2ms6sog6a15jf7b54k5u9dmph@4ax.com>, smicker
> <rossprat@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I do not think there
> > are any 'one size fits all' solutions
>
> Except for this one, eh? '-)

Virtualoso <virtualoso@dot.com> wrote in message news:<100820030912400871%virtualoso@dot.com>...
> In article <jUtZa.3361$Ih1.1468331@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com >, Markus
> <markusx14u@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > I too believed that I could not control my addiction
> > utilizing my own inner strengths. However, I discovered that I was mistaken
> > to believe that just because I couldn't control my addiction on my own that
> > I also couldn't be taught how to.
>
> Experts at the Stanford Medical Center conducted research showing that
> people involved with 12 step programs did substantially better at
> results than those that underwent training in practical behavioral
> methods. Which is not to say that some minority of people did
> relatively okay with the latter.

What research? Please be specific. Where was it
published, and when? Authors? Title?

* Agent Orange *
* agent_orange@linuxmail.org *
* AA and Recovery Cult Debunking *
* http://aorange1.tripod.com/ *
* True infomation, human intelligence, *
* and Reason are the mortal enemies of *
* cult leaders... *
* "There is thus an illiterate air about the most literate
* true believer. He seems to use words as if he were
* ignorant of their true meaning. Hence, too, his taste for
* quibbling, hairsplitting, and scholastic tortuousness."
* =="The True Believer", by Eric Hoffer, pages 79 to 80.