Gregg wrote:
>>Well, final thought, i'm going to continue to go
>>to AA but i am questioning AA a little more than i probably should. For
>>that i am feeling really guilty about, cause the logical part of me is
>>saying to do it the AA way.
>>
>>Bryan
>
>
> Bryan why should you not question AA? It is your life not anyone else's. The
> only truly dangerous thing to question for someone like me is whether or not
> I can take a drink and get away with it. If you really want to get something
> from AA remember the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop
> drinking. Take what you truly need to stay sober and share what is helping
> you stay sober. AA could use more people that think and speak from the heart
> and less parrots. There are also other sobriety support groups and many just
> plain old healthy groups and activities that one can participate in which
> support your sobriety. Relax and enjoy being sober. If you are ever told by
> anyone to do it this way or you'll drink and die, look elsewhere for
> inspiration. :-)
>
> Gregg
>
>
Thanks

Gregg wrote:
>>Well, final thought, i'm going to continue to go
>>to AA but i am questioning AA a little more than i probably should. For
>>that i am feeling really guilty about, cause the logical part of me is
>>saying to do it the AA way.
>>
>>Bryan
>
>
> Bryan why should you not question AA? It is your life not anyone else's. The
> only truly dangerous thing to question for someone like me is whether or not
> I can take a drink and get away with it. If you really want to get something
> from AA remember the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop
> drinking. Take what you truly need to stay sober and share what is helping
> you stay sober. AA could use more people that think and speak from the heart
> and less parrots. There are also other sobriety support groups and many just
> plain old healthy groups and activities that one can participate in which
> support your sobriety. Relax and enjoy being sober. If you are ever told by
> anyone to do it this way or you'll drink and die, look elsewhere for
> inspiration. :-)
>
> Gregg
>
>
main thing my post was i wasn't doubting AA, just
questioning it a little. Still going

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:46:40 -0400, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:

>On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:53:03 GMT, someone in need
><nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
>>lets assume a %(small) of alcoholics are able to drink normally again.
>>if you tell everyone this the chances are many will try and many will
>>relapse.
>>
>>to an alcoholic that may sem like a good option but realistically if
>>there exists the possibility that returning to drinking will destroy
>>your family and eventually you why risk it????
>
>ahem.
>
>By definition, the true alchoholic presently _will_ risk it, no matter
>what you or anyone else tells them or fails to tell them or if anybody
>gives a damn at all.
>
>Sorry to bear bad news.
>
>Fear of consequence does not generally hold sufficient sway to counter
>a mental compulsion of the alcoholic nature for long.
>
>Nice idea, though.
>
>
>------------------------------------
>'the problem centers in his mind'





Is it not the pain of consequences exceeding the pleasure of drinking
that can persuade an alcoholic to get/stay sober?

On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 17:00:20 GMT, someone in need
<nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 10:46:40 -0400, rockhound <user@null.org> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 23:53:03 GMT, someone in need
>><nospamplease@somewhere.com> wrote:
>>
>>>lets assume a %(small) of alcoholics are able to drink normally again.
>>>if you tell everyone this the chances are many will try and many will
>>>relapse.
>>>
>>>to an alcoholic that may sem like a good option but realistically if
>>>there exists the possibility that returning to drinking will destroy
>>>your family and eventually you why risk it????
>>
>>ahem.
>>
>>By definition, the true alchoholic presently _will_ risk it, no matter
>>what you or anyone else tells them or fails to tell them or if anybody
>>gives a damn at all.
>>
>>Sorry to bear bad news.
>>
>>Fear of consequence does not generally hold sufficient sway to counter
>>a mental compulsion of the alcoholic nature for long.
>>
>>Nice idea, though.
>>
>>
>>------------------------------------
>>'the problem centers in his mind'
>
>
>
>
>
>Is it not the pain of consequences exceeding the pleasure of drinking
>that can persuade an alcoholic to get/stay sober?

'fraid not. You're talking about common sense, here LOL! (oOr - yech!
worse, frothy emotional appeal!)

This may work fine for certain moderate or hard or problem drinkers,
but it does not produce results for anyone in whom the alcoholic mind
has taken root. AA goes so far as to flatly declare that nothing but
an act of God can overcome the compulsion to drink.

Some very enlightening reading here:

http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_21.htm
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_22.htm
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_23.htm
http://anonpress.org/bb/Page_24.htm

Bryan wrote:
> Ken Ragge wrote:
>
>> Bryan wrote:
>>
>>>>> Welcome to our new blog:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.blogspot.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Lilian and Murdoch
>>>>> http://www.alcoholicscandrinksafelyagain.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I wonder if they'd waste the time putting up a website if they
>>> weren't trying to sell things on it??
>>
>>
>>
>> Bryan,
>>
>> I don't know them, but I see no reason why they wouldn't. Few people
>> write non-fiction books for the money. They write them because they
>> have things to say. If one were to write in the non-fiction genre
>> about excessive drinking, they could come up with something that
>> Hazeldon and the Big Wigs in AA would like. There is money there. As
>> it is, I think they merely have found the lie of the AA disease theory
>> and AA doctrine and want to tell about it.
>>
>> Of course, this is not saying everyone should drink or even bother to
>> moderate. For many people it is just too much work, life is too
>> short, and there are too many other things to do.
>>
>> Ken Ragge
>> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> As much as i don't agree with much of what you got to say, and i really
> don't think you believe what you say. I think you got ulterior motives,
>
> However, damnit your making me think. Been going to wrong meetings or
> something lately people are rubbing me the wrong way at the meetings.
> Other meetings i've been to in a different city i lived in were better.
> The meetings i've been going to now are different. I don't like 'em.
> The AA concept is this is the only way.. As much as i buy into that i'm
> starting to have a fucking hard time with that. I post this i guarantee
> i'm going to get flamed by someone.

Bryan,

You say I'm making you think. Thank you. If I have an ulterior motive,
maybe that's it. Making people turn the "Think, Think, Think" sign at
AA clublouses rightside up in their own heads.

You aren't the first person who got involved with AA, moved, and found
the meetings in the new location intolerable. Some of these I've met
found that when they had an opportunity to go back to the old meetings
in the old home town, they find they are really the same as the new
ones. It is not that there aren't people they don't like and don't care
about, it is just that liking and caring about people one overlooks a
lot. In new meetings, that is likely to not happen.

> Another hard time i have is when someone stumbles into this website
> questioning there drinking when they really do not have the knowledge of
> what alcoholism is, some of the posters are fucking hard on them!! Be
> nicer, there going to say fuck AA and fuck this NG before they give it a
> chance.

Actually, "alcoholism" is a term for a "folk disease." Most everything
one learns from an AA member about it is simply wrong. According to the
DSM IV, there are two categories re alcohol, alcohol abuse and alcohol
dependence.

If people are turned off of AA by people on the net, they are probably
far better off. AA has such a tiny success rate and many people end up
feeling betrayed when they find they have adopted a religion that is, in
reality, not at all consistent with their own values.

Moreover, I consider many of the suicides of AA members, whether drunk
at the time of death or not, is a result of the inculcation of values
like "Powerlessness."

Look at it this way. There has never been a study showing AA to be
successful vs. no "treatment" or "program" whatsoever. And AA has been
around for 65 years. Would you recommend someone takes a remedy that
has been around so long and the only methodologically sound studies
shows it is worse than no treatment?

> Well, final thought, i'm going to continue to go to AA but i am
> questioning AA a little more than i probably should. For that i am
> feeling really guilty about, cause the logical part of me is saying to
> do it the AA way.

And why shouldn't you question AA or anything you want to? Why should
you feel guilty for thinking _your_ thoughts. If you believe in God,
did he give you a mind for a reason or not? Does He not want you to
think?

And the same in different language if you are atheist or agnostic.

Why should anyone feel guilty for _thinking_ (as opposed to
planning/plotting) _anything_?

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com



> Bryan