relevence???

At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience but
making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that to do
with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a person
forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good as well
as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm? surely if
you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
thing, yes?

Darren

Darren <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience but
> making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that to
do
> with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
person
> forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good as
well
> as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm? surely if
> you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
> thing, yes?
>
> Darren

I think there are as many interpretations of the purpose of the steps as
there are members. My take on it is along the lines as yours. What's the
general idea? To stay sober, right? So, my way if viewing step nine is to
clean my side of the street so my conscience doesn't bother me.
But, having said that, AA is also a spiritual way of living which means, in
part to me anyhow, to be rid of the bondage of self. Thus, amending the
wrong done to someone else is viewed in that sense as a very unselfish act.
You have to give it up to receive it. Kindof a funny paradox, but it works.
No harm in feeling good about being forgiven IMO, but one can't dwell on
feeling bad when we are not forgiven either. Fix the problem to the best of
one's ability then move on.

"Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience but
> making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that to
do
> with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
person
> forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good as
well
> as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm? surely if
> you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
> thing, yes?
>
> Darren
>
>

Darren,

I sometimes get the results of my actions confused with the purpose. As I
understand the purpose of steps 4 through 9, it is to shape us to better
serve God and the people around us. One of the redeeming virtues of
reaching step 9 and continuing through this point is that sometimes it makes
us feel better also.

"Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and
the people about us."

As to feeling bad because I felt good because I was given a gift which I did
not deserve.....Hmmmmmmm I am with you on this one -- I don't get that
either.

Bobby L

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:wwsre.97650$8S5.2605@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
>
> "Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience
but
> > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that
to
> do
> > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
> person
> > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good as
> well
> > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm? surely
if
> > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
> > thing, yes?
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
>
> Darren,
>
> I sometimes get the results of my actions confused with the purpose. As I
> understand the purpose of steps 4 through 9, it is to shape us to better
> serve God and the people around us. One of the redeeming virtues of
> reaching step 9 and continuing through this point is that sometimes it
makes
> us feel better also.
>
> "Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and
> the people about us."
Bobby. I'm not a Christian. If I wanted to become a christian I would go to
church. If I were to draw a list of religions of choice in desired order
then christianity would be well down near the bottom.
>
> As to feeling bad because I felt good because I was given a gift which I
did
> not deserve.....Hmmmmmmm I am with you on this one -- I don't get that
> either.
As I say, we will drink on feeling bad and not on feeling good

Darren

"stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Glrre.54211$HI.36493@edtnps84...
>
> Darren <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience
but
> > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that
to
> do
> > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
> person
> > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good as
> well
> > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm? surely
if
> > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
> > thing, yes?
> >
> > Darren
>
> I think there are as many interpretations of the purpose of the steps as
> there are members. My take on it is along the lines as yours. What's the
> general idea? To stay sober, right? So, my way if viewing step nine is to
> clean my side of the street so my conscience doesn't bother me.

Some members of AA would say that you are being selfish. I would reply.,
"reality check boys". The church is down the road there. Go there for your
spiritual and moral guidence. here, the goal is to remain sober but if
that's how they do it then fair enough. I could have spoken out last night
but i didn't. Perhaps that was best huh?

> But, having said that, AA is also a spiritual way of living which means,
in
> part to me anyhow, to be rid of the bondage of self.
Impossible. The one person you always wake up with, live with, sleep with,
work with, die with is yourself and the same applies to every creature in
the universe is yourself. There is no such thing as someone or something who
is totally selfless throughout thier entire lives. There are varying degress
and moments of selflessness but no total selflessnness. Hell according to
the christians not even their god is selfless. The guy needs you to worship
him. Now thats selfish.

>Thus, amending the
> wrong done to someone else is viewed in that sense as a very unselfish
act.
> You have to give it up to receive it.
to care what people think about you and to desire to receive forgiveness is
selfish
>Kindof a funny paradox, but it works.
works for what? keeps you sober? Fair enough but it doesn't work for me.

> No harm in feeling good about being forgiven IMO, but one can't dwell on
> feeling bad when we are not forgiven either. Fix the problem to the best
of
> one's ability then move on.
Now I have unofficially done some of step 9. I have two, maybe three people
left to apologise to but i am told that alcoholism is a mental ilness like
schitzophrenia or clinical depression hence when we are attacked by our
insanity (in or cased we get pissed) then technically we are exhomoured
automatically because we are not responsible.so we shouldn't have to
apologise but we do anyway. Why? to make them feel better. Sounds not very
sselfish to me.

As I say, if i need a christian lesson then i'll go find a church.



Darren

"Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
news:7gzre.9151$q46.6445@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:Glrre.54211$HI.36493@edtnps84...
>>
>> Darren <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
>> news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>> > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
>> > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience
> but
>> > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that
> to
>> do
>> > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
>> person
>> > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good as
>> well
>> > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm? surely
> if
>> > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
>> > thing, yes?
>> >
>> > Darren
>>
>> I think there are as many interpretations of the purpose of the steps as
>> there are members. My take on it is along the lines as yours. What's the
>> general idea? To stay sober, right? So, my way if viewing step nine is to
>> clean my side of the street so my conscience doesn't bother me.
>
> Some members of AA would say that you are being selfish. I would reply.,
> "reality check boys". The church is down the road there. Go there for your
> spiritual and moral guidence. here, the goal is to remain sober but if
> that's how they do it then fair enough. I could have spoken out last night
> but i didn't. Perhaps that was best huh?
>
>> But, having said that, AA is also a spiritual way of living which means,
> in
>> part to me anyhow, to be rid of the bondage of self.
> Impossible. The one person you always wake up with, live with, sleep with,
> work with, die with is yourself and the same applies to every creature in
> the universe is yourself. There is no such thing as someone or something
> who
> is totally selfless throughout thier entire lives. There are varying
> degress
> and moments of selflessness but no total selflessnness. Hell according to
> the christians not even their god is selfless. The guy needs you to
> worship
> him. Now thats selfish.
>
>>Thus, amending the
>> wrong done to someone else is viewed in that sense as a very unselfish
> act.
>> You have to give it up to receive it.
> to care what people think about you and to desire to receive forgiveness
> is
> selfish
>>Kindof a funny paradox, but it works.
> works for what? keeps you sober? Fair enough but it doesn't work for me.
>
>> No harm in feeling good about being forgiven IMO, but one can't dwell on
>> feeling bad when we are not forgiven either. Fix the problem to the best
> of
>> one's ability then move on.
> Now I have unofficially done some of step 9. I have two, maybe three
> people
> left to apologise to but i am told that alcoholism is a mental ilness like
> schitzophrenia or clinical depression hence when we are attacked by our
> insanity (in or cased we get pissed) then technically we are exhomoured
> automatically because we are not responsible.so we shouldn't have to
> apologise but we do anyway. Why? to make them feel better. Sounds not very
> sselfish to me.
>
> As I say, if i need a christian lesson then i'll go find a church.
>
>
>
> Darren

Darren, step nine does not suggest we "apologize" It says "make amends",
which means to repair the damage. That may mean the person we have made the
amend to may not realize you have done so, if you want to look at it that
way.
There's a difference between apologizing and repairing. The classic example
is apologizing for stealing from someone. Do you just apologize, or do you
give them their money back? Big difference.

"stuart" <ggo@feds.org> wrote in message
news:teCre.49368$wr.2319@clgrps12...
>
> "Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> news:7gzre.9151$q46.6445@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> >
> > "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:Glrre.54211$HI.36493@edtnps84...
> >>
> >> Darren <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> >> news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> >> > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> >> > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your
concience
> > but
> >> > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has
that
> > to
> >> do
> >> > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
> >> person
> >> > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good
as
> >> well
> >> > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm?
surely
> > if
> >> > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a
good
> >> > thing, yes?
> >> >
> >> > Darren
> >>
> >> I think there are as many interpretations of the purpose of the steps
as
> >> there are members. My take on it is along the lines as yours. What's
the
> >> general idea? To stay sober, right? So, my way if viewing step nine is
to
> >> clean my side of the street so my conscience doesn't bother me.
> >
> > Some members of AA would say that you are being selfish. I would reply.,
> > "reality check boys". The church is down the road there. Go there for
your
> > spiritual and moral guidence. here, the goal is to remain sober but if
> > that's how they do it then fair enough. I could have spoken out last
night
> > but i didn't. Perhaps that was best huh?
> >
> >> But, having said that, AA is also a spiritual way of living which
means,
> > in
> >> part to me anyhow, to be rid of the bondage of self.
> > Impossible. The one person you always wake up with, live with, sleep
with,
> > work with, die with is yourself and the same applies to every creature
in
> > the universe is yourself. There is no such thing as someone or something
> > who
> > is totally selfless throughout thier entire lives. There are varying
> > degress
> > and moments of selflessness but no total selflessnness. Hell according
to
> > the christians not even their god is selfless. The guy needs you to
> > worship
> > him. Now thats selfish.
>
> Oh absolutely true. If you look at Chap 4 in the 12&12 it talks about
> 'self-will run riot'. There's what I was referring to. It's tricky because
> to some degree we all need to be selfish and look after ourselves, but
where
> spirituality comes in is when we have caring and concern for others of our
> own kind, our collective souls if you will..
Fair enough if you are suffering with selfishness gone mad and are needing
spiritual help then AA isn't the place. That's for your church, mosque,
temple, little white circle whatever. My fall comes from the inability to
withstand each and every crushing blow to me ego, self confidence etc by a
capitalist money motivated societty who values money more than life.

Darren

"stuart" <ggo@feds.org> wrote in message
news:siCre.49369$wr.17602@clgrps12...
>
> "Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> news:7gzre.9151$q46.6445@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> >
> > "stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:Glrre.54211$HI.36493@edtnps84...
> >>
> >> Darren <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> >> news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> >> > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> >> > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your
concience
> > but
> >> > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has
that
> > to
> >> do
> >> > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
> >> person
> >> > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good
as
> >> well
> >> > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm?
surely
> > if
> >> > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a
good
> >> > thing, yes?
> >> >
> >> > Darren
> >>
> >> I think there are as many interpretations of the purpose of the steps
as
> >> there are members. My take on it is along the lines as yours. What's
the
> >> general idea? To stay sober, right? So, my way if viewing step nine is
to
> >> clean my side of the street so my conscience doesn't bother me.
> >
> > Some members of AA would say that you are being selfish. I would reply.,
> > "reality check boys". The church is down the road there. Go there for
your
> > spiritual and moral guidence. here, the goal is to remain sober but if
> > that's how they do it then fair enough. I could have spoken out last
night
> > but i didn't. Perhaps that was best huh?
> >
> >> But, having said that, AA is also a spiritual way of living which
means,
> > in
> >> part to me anyhow, to be rid of the bondage of self.
> > Impossible. The one person you always wake up with, live with, sleep
with,
> > work with, die with is yourself and the same applies to every creature
in
> > the universe is yourself. There is no such thing as someone or something
> > who
> > is totally selfless throughout thier entire lives. There are varying
> > degress
> > and moments of selflessness but no total selflessnness. Hell according
to
> > the christians not even their god is selfless. The guy needs you to
> > worship
> > him. Now thats selfish.
> >
> >>Thus, amending the
> >> wrong done to someone else is viewed in that sense as a very unselfish
> > act.
> >> You have to give it up to receive it.
> > to care what people think about you and to desire to receive forgiveness
> > is
> > selfish
> >>Kindof a funny paradox, but it works.
> > works for what? keeps you sober? Fair enough but it doesn't work for me.
> >
> >> No harm in feeling good about being forgiven IMO, but one can't dwell
on
> >> feeling bad when we are not forgiven either. Fix the problem to the
best
> > of
> >> one's ability then move on.
> > Now I have unofficially done some of step 9. I have two, maybe three
> > people
> > left to apologise to but i am told that alcoholism is a mental ilness
like
> > schitzophrenia or clinical depression hence when we are attacked by our
> > insanity (in or cased we get pissed) then technically we are exhomoured
> > automatically because we are not responsible.so we shouldn't have to
> > apologise but we do anyway. Why? to make them feel better. Sounds not
very
> > sselfish to me.
> >
> > As I say, if i need a christian lesson then i'll go find a church.
> >
> >
> >
> > Darren
>
> Darren, step nine does not suggest we "apologize" It says "make amends",
> which means to repair the damage.
Same difference.
>That may mean the person we have made the
> amend to may not realize you have done so, if you want to look at it that
> way.
Why? How does this help sobriety.
> There's a difference between apologizing and repairing. The classic
example
> is apologizing for stealing from someone. Do you just apologize, or do you
> give them their money back? Big difference
I heard that speech last night. besides the people i hurt were hurt
emotionally. As I have no access to a time machine and Ctrl+z doesn't work
on life then there's no way of undoing the damage i caused and I plead not
guilty through diminished responsibility. .
>
>
Darren

"Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
news:uWyre.9146$q46.9106@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
>
> "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:wwsre.97650$8S5.2605@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
> >
> > "Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> > news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> > > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> > > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your concience
> but
> > > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has that
> to
> > do
> > > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
> > person
> > > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good
as
> > well
> > > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm?
surely
> if
> > > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a good
> > > thing, yes?
> > >
> > > Darren
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Darren,
> >
> > I sometimes get the results of my actions confused with the purpose. As
I
> > understand the purpose of steps 4 through 9, it is to shape us to better
> > serve God and the people around us. One of the redeeming virtues of
> > reaching step 9 and continuing through this point is that sometimes it
> makes
> > us feel better also.
> >
> > "Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God
and
> > the people about us."
> Bobby. I'm not a Christian. If I wanted to become a christian I would go
to
> church. If I were to draw a list of religions of choice in desired order
> then christianity would be well down near the bottom.
> >
> > As to feeling bad because I felt good because I was given a gift which I
> did
> > not deserve.....Hmmmmmmm I am with you on this one -- I don't get
that
> > either.
> As I say, we will drink on feeling bad and not on feeling good
>
> Darren
>
>


Who gives a shit whether or not you want to be a Christian?
I didn't bring up Christianity.. you did.... and even sounded a little pissy
about it. This is not about you and what you do or do not want to do. This
is about getting and staying sober.
You wanted to know what step 9 was about ... so I did this really amazing
feat. I read it out of the Book that introduces step 9. You might try it
sometime. Now all that passage did was mention God, it did not say which
God, or whose God or this God or that God --- you could be Jewish, Muslim,
Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Zoroastrian or whatever for all I care. The more
important thing, I believe is the true heartfelt realization neither you nor
I are God..... of anything.

If you have an axe to grind, you've picked the wrong whetstone.

Bobby L

"Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:RNJre.98382$8S5.31851@bignews3.bellsouth.net. ..
>
> "Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> news:uWyre.9146$q46.9106@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> >
> > "Bobby L" <bobbyl2000@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> > news:wwsre.97650$8S5.2605@bignews3.bellsouth.net.. .
> > >
> > > "Darren" <darren@notathome.net> wrote in message
> > > news:coqre.9079$q46.3288@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> > > > At tonights meeting and on many meetings in the past, members stated
> > > > something on the lines that step 9 isn't about quelling your
concience
> > but
> > > > making the other person feel better. I don't understand. What has
that
> > to
> > > do
> > > > with sobriety? also one member felt bad because he felt good about a
> > > person
> > > > forgiving him... WHAT? If the person who is making amends feels good
> as
> > > well
> > > > as the person he/she is making amends too then where's the harm?
> surely
> > if
> > > > you're feeling good and because you are feeling good then thats a
good
> > > > thing, yes?
> > > >
> > > > Darren
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Darren,
> > >
> > > I sometimes get the results of my actions confused with the purpose.
As
> I
> > > understand the purpose of steps 4 through 9, it is to shape us to
better
> > > serve God and the people around us. One of the redeeming virtues of
> > > reaching step 9 and continuing through this point is that sometimes it
> > makes
> > > us feel better also.
> > >
> > > "Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God
> and
> > > the people about us."
> > Bobby. I'm not a Christian. If I wanted to become a christian I would go
> to
> > church. If I were to draw a list of religions of choice in desired order
> > then christianity would be well down near the bottom.
> > >
> > > As to feeling bad because I felt good because I was given a gift which
I
> > did
> > > not deserve.....Hmmmmmmm I am with you on this one -- I don't get
> that
> > > either.
> > As I say, we will drink on feeling bad and not on feeling good
> >
> > Darren
> >
> >
>
>
> Who gives a shit whether or not you want to be a Christian?
I do
> I didn't bring up Christianity.. you did.... and even sounded a little
pissy
> about it.
That's right. I did. Fed up of cearing chritian preaching in AA meetings.
>This is not about you and what you do or do not want to do. This
> is about getting and staying sober.
That's a contrdiction. Its about me getting and staying sober so it is about
me and what I want to do.
> You wanted to know what step 9 was about ...
>so I did this really amazing
> feat. I read it out of the Book that introduces step 9. You might try it
> sometime.
No. I know what step 9 is about. I wanted to know it's relevence to me
staying sober.
>Now all that passage did was mention God, it did not say which
> God, or whose God or this God or that God --- you could be Jewish, Muslim,
> Buddhist, Hindu, Wiccan, Zoroastrian or whatever for all I care. The more
> important thing, I believe is the true heartfelt realization neither you
nor
> I are God..... of anything.
>
For all you care? When did this become about you? Besides, You missed the
point completely.
> If you have an axe to grind, you've picked the wrong whetstone.
Of course I have an axe to grind. I'm an alcoholic. I have several axes to
grind. What alcoholic doesn't. and *if* that's some sort of threat then
bring it on.

Darren