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  #1  
Old 06-12-2005, 04:33 PM
M$Man
 
Posts: n/a
Sobriety without a 12 step program

I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with a
screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using in
college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days in a
controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I see
an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am only
buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I have
made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but haven't. I
am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure of
AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle of
Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed for
people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion if
you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still managed to
keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they have
all supported me through my recovery.

So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and live to
see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the wherewithal to
admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got out!

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks - Chris


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  #2  
Old 06-12-2005, 11:46 PM
WACO
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

Yes, it is possible to stay clean and sober without a program. Many have
done it, we just don't here from those as they have chosen to carry on with
their lives vs. preaching at AA meetings. As for God and the Higher Power
in AA, if this is an absolute to staying sober, why are priests, ministers
and rabbis alcoholics as well?

Use what works for you but just don't use.

M$Man wrote:
> I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with a
> screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using in
> college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days in a
> controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I see
> an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am only
> buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I have
> made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but haven't. I
> am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure of
> AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
> thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle of
> Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed for
> people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion if
> you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
> with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still managed to
> keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they have
> all supported me through my recovery.
>
> So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
> clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and live to
> see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the wherewithal to
> admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got out!
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks - Chris
>
>


  #3  
Old 06-13-2005, 12:04 AM
Ken Ragge
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

M$Man wrote:
> I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with a
> screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using in
> college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days in a
> controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I see
> an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am only
> buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I have
> made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but haven't. I
> am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure of
> AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
> thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle of
> Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed for
> people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion if
> you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
> with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still managed to
> keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they have
> all supported me through my recovery.
>
> So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
> clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and live to
> see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the wherewithal to
> admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got out!
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks - Chris
>
>

Chris,

Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.

The Step groups aren't merely religious, they are religious cults and an
offshoot of a pro-fascist Fundamentalist Christian cult called the
Oxford Group. There is a lot of information about them at:
http://www.morerevealed.com . Maybe very interesting to you is a book
on the website which goes into AA history, its "success" rates
(actuallly it is a horrible failure) and the techniques they use to
destablilize people and gain new recruits.
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/

It isn't really surprising that people who sit around talking about
alcohol and drugs for years on end and under constant pressure to an
authoritarian religious cult don't do nearly as well as those who stop
or moderate and move on with life.

Ken Ragge

  #4  
Old 06-13-2005, 12:04 AM
Ken
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

M$Man wrote:
> I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with a
> screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using in
> college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days in a
> controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I see
> an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am only
> buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I have
> made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but haven't. I
> am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure of
> AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
> thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle of
> Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed for
> people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion if
> you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
> with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still managed to
> keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they have
> all supported me through my recovery.
>
> So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
> clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and live to
> see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the wherewithal to
> admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got out!
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks - Chris
>
>

Chris,

Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.

The Step groups aren't merely religious, they are religious cults and an
offshoot of a pro-fascist Fundamentalist Christian cult called the
Oxford Group. There is a lot of information about them at:
http://www.morerevealed.com . Maybe very interesting to you is a book
on the website which goes into AA history, its "success" rates
(actuallly it is a horrible failure) and the techniques they use to
destablilize people and gain new recruits.
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/

It isn't really surprising that people who sit around talking about
alcohol and drugs for years on end and under constant pressure to an
authoritarian religious cult don't do nearly as well as those who stop
or moderate and move on with life.

Ken Ragge

  #5  
Old 06-13-2005, 12:05 AM
Ken
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

M$Man wrote:
> I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with a
> screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using in
> college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days in a
> controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I see
> an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am only
> buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I have
> made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but haven't. I
> am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure of
> AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
> thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle of
> Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed for
> people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion if
> you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
> with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still managed to
> keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they have
> all supported me through my recovery.
>
> So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
> clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and live to
> see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the wherewithal to
> admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got out!
>
> Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks - Chris
>
>

Chris,

Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.

The Step groups aren't merely religious, they are religious cults and an
offshoot of a pro-fascist Fundamentalist Christian cult called the
Oxford Group. There is a lot of information about them at:
http://www.morerevealed.com . Maybe very interesting to you is a book
on the website which goes into AA history, its "success" rates
(actuallly it is a horrible failure) and the techniques they use to
destablilize people and gain new recruits.
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/

It isn't really surprising that people who sit around talking about
alcohol and drugs for years on end and under constant pressure to an
authoritarian religious cult don't do nearly as well as those who stop
or moderate and move on with life.

Ken Ragge

  #6  
Old 06-13-2005, 12:49 AM
stuart
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

How to profit Kem. Create your own question and then provide an answer by
"someone else"
Your're as sleazy as Orange.
Lets do an infomercial.
Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:42AD05DC.4090106@nospam.com...
> M$Man wrote:
> > I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with

a
> > screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using

in
> > college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days

in a
> > controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I

see
> > an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am

only
> > buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I

have
> > made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but

haven't. I
> > am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure

of
> > AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
> > thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle

of
> > Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed

for
> > people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion

if
> > you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
> > with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still

managed to
> > keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they

have
> > all supported me through my recovery.
> >
> > So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
> > clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and

live to
> > see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the

wherewithal to
> > admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got

out!
> >
> > Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks - Chris
> >
> >

> Chris,
>
> Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
> outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
> to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.
>
> The Step groups aren't merely religious, they are religious cults and an
> offshoot of a pro-fascist Fundamentalist Christian cult called the
> Oxford Group. There is a lot of information about them at:
> http://www.morerevealed.com . Maybe very interesting to you is a book
> on the website which goes into AA history, its "success" rates
> (actuallly it is a horrible failure) and the techniques they use to
> destablilize people and gain new recruits.
> http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/
>
> It isn't really surprising that people who sit around talking about
> alcohol and drugs for years on end and under constant pressure to an
> authoritarian religious cult don't do nearly as well as those who stop
> or moderate and move on with life.
>
> Ken Ragge
>



  #7  
Old 06-13-2005, 01:35 AM
Ken Ragge
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

stuart wrote:
> How to profit Kem. Create your own question and then provide an answer by
> "someone else"
> Your're as sleazy as Orange.
> Lets do an infomercial.


Stuart,

Are you for real? Do you really think I posted that message? Do you
really think that of all the millions of people exposed to AA among who
are 1-2 million who are coerced at the behest of AA that no one is going
to be critical of "The Program" or not want to go?

Do you really think that the "success" stories in AA, people who have
sat in the rooms and preached about their own disease, the Powerlessness
of the alcoholic and need for the 12-Step/Oxford Group "personal God" to
survive "One day at a time" are attractive to all those who wander in or
are forced to go?

You folks are the ones who would fit just as well in a TV infomercial as
in your Fundamentalist style prayer and witness meetings. And to me,
you are just as credible.

You might try thinking before you make stupid accusations. Did you get
that accusation from your conscious contact with God acquired through
working the Steps? The original founder of the Step theology, Frank
Buchman, had conscious contact with God and got messages too. God told
him "Thank Heavens for a man like Adolph Hitler . . . too bad about the
Jews . . ."

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com

> Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:42AD05DC.4090106@nospam.com...
>
>>M$Man wrote:
>>
>>>I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with

>
> a
>
>>>screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started using

>
> in
>
>>>college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days

>
> in a
>
>>>controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings. I

>
> see
>
>>>an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am

>
> only
>
>>>buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I

>
> have
>
>>>made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but

>
> haven't. I
>
>>>am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure

>
> of
>
>>>AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
>>>thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a bottle

>
> of
>
>>>Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its designed

>
> for
>
>>>people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house conversion

>
> if
>
>>>you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so disgusted
>>>with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still

>
> managed to
>
>>>keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they

>
> have
>
>>>all supported me through my recovery.
>>>
>>>So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
>>>clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and

>
> live to
>
>>>see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the

>
> wherewithal to
>
>>>admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got

>
> out!
>
>>>Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
>>>
>>>Thanks - Chris
>>>
>>>

>>
>>Chris,
>>
>>Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
>>outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
>>to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.
>>
>>The Step groups aren't merely religious, they are religious cults and an
>>offshoot of a pro-fascist Fundamentalist Christian cult called the
>>Oxford Group. There is a lot of information about them at:
>>http://www.morerevealed.com . Maybe very interesting to you is a book
>>on the website which goes into AA history, its "success" rates
>>(actuallly it is a horrible failure) and the techniques they use to
>>destablilize people and gain new recruits.
>>http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/
>>
>>It isn't really surprising that people who sit around talking about
>>alcohol and drugs for years on end and under constant pressure to an
>>authoritarian religious cult don't do nearly as well as those who stop
>>or moderate and move on with life.
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>>

>
>
>

  #8  
Old 06-13-2005, 02:01 AM
kohlrabi_croce
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program

Ken,

Makes sense to me. Wow, those people are rabid. Somebody even told
me to stuff cotton down my throat, and somebody else told me that they
know better than I do, what advice is good for me.

Fuck a bunch of that! ( from a poem which got us all kicked out of a
major chain booskstore)

  #9  
Old 06-13-2005, 02:52 AM
Sheenah
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program


"M$Man" <my_email@none_of_your_goddamn_business.org> wrote in message
news:u_0re.27286$J12.2948@newssvr14.news.prodigy.c om...
> So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to

stay
> clean and sober with out the program?


I was able to not drink for almost 8 years without making use of a
recovery programme. I have never taken other recreational (?) drugs

Sheenah


  #10  
Old 06-13-2005, 02:54 AM
Sheenah
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Sobriety without a 12 step program


"Sheenah" <JBcatRB@coldman.com> wrote in message
news:d8jadv$63r$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "M$Man" <my_email@none_of_your_goddamn_business.org> wrote in message
> news:u_0re.27286$J12.2948@newssvr14.news.prodigy.c om...
> > So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to

> stay
> > clean and sober with out the program?

>
> I was able to not drink for almost 8 years without making use of a
> recovery programme. I have never taken other recreational (?) drugs
>
> Sheenah
>

Correction, I have smoked ciggies. I did not become addicted to them.


 


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