> >> Is this projection? Are you a frustrated, failed salesman?
> >
> > Is this the best defense you can come up with, Ken?
> > If you'd bothered to read all of Stuart's post - instead of
> > fixating on one minor aspect - you'd find some cogent,
> > constructive criticism.

On 14-Jun-2005, "stuart" <ggo@feds.org> wrote:>
> Which I not so humbly suggested.

But nonetheless an extremely generous act
on your part... IM-(NutSo)-HO

> I don't think he's interested in doing
> anything but bashing AA. Doing so on the internet is really kind of
> cowardly, don't you think?

Yep! I'm feeling a little let down myself. I think I'll
recind my offer to allow Ken to be my guiding light.

I really would have followed that man anywhere! If only he'd
acknowledged my existence... or at least responded to my posts.
<sniff sniff>

--
NutSo (aka CW aka C Dub)

M$Man wrote:
> "dan mcgown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> asks in message >
>
>> I'm interested in how you have done it thus far. Is it really "just
>>say 'no'?" Are you doing it entirely on your own or are you working with
>>anyone like a fellow addict or a therapist?
>
>
> Total life style change....quit my job and locked myself in my house. Cut
> all contact with my friends that still use. Avoid all the triggers. Haven't
> put my self in a situation in the last 70 days that I would be around drugs
> or alcohol. Became much more HEALTH conscience, got a home gym and work-out
> everyday. I see a "therapist" she is a M.S. licensed as a drug and alcohol
> counselor, and was recommended by my treatment facility, where she was a
> former staff member, as well as a recovering alcoholic. I also have a member
> of my 'fag-hag' entourage that's been clean for almost a year, however she
> never had the momentum I did, none-the-less she is a big support.
>
Chris,

Do you have _any_ input from non-Steppers? One of the prime
objectives of cults and authoritarian organizations during early
recruiting is to separate them from and/or discredit outside sources of
information.

You might get pissed at the suggestion, but your "therapist" is
probably what Steppers refer to as a "two-hatter," meaning
she is a group member and uses her position as therapist to
recruit.

Has she suggested you get involved with any people other than
Steppers? Has she accused you of "isolating" and only suggested
the groups as a place to socialize? Does she build your confidence
in your ability to abstain?

Locking yourself away is only going to make you lonely, and
make drinking/drugging seem more attractive, if only to break
the isolation. Moreover, if your social group narrows itself
to only group members, you will be put in a position of great
vulnerability when they begin putting on more intense pressure
to adopt "spiritual principles."


>
>>Do you think that you were simply physically addicted to >the coke or did
>>you have any other personality issues that triggered using?
>
>
> I believe I have an addiction gene based on my ancestry (Welsh-Irish), and
> as a result I can't moderate. My use was an attempt to regulate my affect,
> and "cope". And yes, I have "issues", I am a recovering Mormon, as well as
> a ruggedly handsome gay man in a world of red-neck, white-trash, bigots. So
> there may be some "internal conflict" there as well.
>
> > like a coke addict who drank, an alcoholic who used >coke or someone who
> tied
>
> I was a drunk that started using coke so I could drink more, and more, and
> more, and more....... then I realized all the things I could accomplish with
> my little magic baggie, it helped me in my business tremendously, if you
> want to get ahead try working an 80 week, then spending another 20 hours in
> the bar with clients.
>
>
>>Have you found any others? If so, I'd like to know about
>
>
> Haven't found others, reading about some recommended in this thread however.
> Until 100 days ago, I had no concept for sobriety, so this is a big learning
> curve for me.
>
>
>>It seems to me that much of addiction is idiosyncratic. Some people seem
>>to be just plainly physically addicted. Other seem to have learned to be
>>dependant on substances to deal with the pain or internal conflict caused
>>by other personal problems. It only makes sense to me that, just as the
>>causes are individual, so the solutions must probably be individually
>>tailored. I was more the guy who was already inclined to drink and had
>>learned to use it as a drug to deal with pain, who then went over the line
>>to drinking constantly because of unmanageable (or at least unmanaged)
>>internal conflicts.
>
>
>
> Yeah those can be a bitch, and I don't have a coping mechanism for'em yet.
> My modus-operandi thus far has been to keep myself occupied with projects
> around the house, exercise, and a book I'm writing. But I'm running out of
> rooms to redecorate, cant fit any more plants in my yard, and they will only
> let me sit at Starbucks and "write" until 7PM. ergo my desire to find
> something other than what I am doing now. My initial plan was to form the
> "habit" of not using, which should have only taken 90 days, then I'd be
> groovy, that plan had some slight miss calculations however.
>
It is much easier to abstain if you _replace_ it with something,
especially with what you were trying to gain by using.
>
>
>> I guess that because I think that the problem is individualized is why
>>I use as much of the program is useful to me and substitute my own
>>thinking for the parts that don't work for me. That's one of the reasons
>>that I have avoided meetings that are, as you say, more "theocratic" than
>>I care for and tried to find the ones that are more in the nature of
>>mutual >assistance.
>
>
> The whole program is focused on the higher-power concept. No one has ever
> done a thing for me, and certainly not an unknown, unproven, omnipresent,
> omnipotent being!*!*! I just cant make it past the higher power.....(and I
> don't know who mentioned the "door knob" concept of a high-pwr, but if a
> door knob has power over you..........ummmm.........)
>
But you will, if you allow them to narrow your world to only
the 12-Steps. People don't become Moonies, Hari Krishnas, Chinese
Communists or members of other authoritarian groups because
they are stupid. It is all resocialization.

>
>> One of the things that I do like about the program is the commitment to
>>helping people who are still out there >poisoning themselves.
>
>
> I agree with you there. I will admit everyone I have met in the program so
> far was very accepting and embraced me openly. Caring almost to a fault and
> egger to assist.
>
Yes, they are very open and accepting and will embrace you
openly. They are very eager to assist. However, with time,
you will be more and more pressured to adopt their "spiritual
principles" and be further and further removed from the rest of
the world.

When these loving, accepting, eager to assist people begin
pushing you to work the Steps, and pray, and etc. if you should
try to stand your ground, you will be pushed into total
isolation. While they are unlikely to directly attack, they will
shun, they will focus their shares on someone who, "just
by coincidence" happens to have the same independent thoughts you have,
etc., and etc. AA friends can disappear overnight if one
dares have any autonomy after the "honeymoon period." I would
wager that already, your therapist turns your questioning of
the Program into a discussion of what might be wrong with you.
It is not wrong to have questions.

There is an e-mail group of over 1200 people who are ex-Steppers
on Yahoo. A very large percentage of them are gay and have gone through
many of the issues you have and are going through. Might I suggest
that you try subscribing and maybe listening in a little. It
might be quite a revelation for you. The name of the group is
12-Step-Free.

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com



>
>>Please stick around and help discuss the nature of addiction and the ways
>>of dealing with it.
>>
>> Dan
>
>
>
>

Nothing absurd about it at all Robert. I asked for a comment from you and
all I got was a smart ass reply which is what I expected from you, so thanks
for being so predictable! Have a nice day Mr. Perfect.
"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42adea38_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "jim" <dingdong46@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:Ofkre.1667319$8l.905428@pd7tw1no
>> Robert, what do you think of a sober alcoholic who attends
>> meetings but still enjoys a puff of good BC bud? You should try
>> it, you might mellow out a bit. Contrary to what others may say it
>> does not lead back to drinking. I have proved it.
>
> About all you have "proved" here is your absurdity, to which I very much
> doubt a toke or two could make any significant difference, at all.
>
> Bob
>

<snip>

> Chris,
>
> Do you have _any_ input from non-Steppers? One of the prime
> objectives of cults and authoritarian organizations during early
> recruiting is to separate them from and/or discredit outside sources of
> information.
>
> You might get pissed at the suggestion, but your "therapist" is
> probably what Steppers refer to as a "two-hatter," meaning
> she is a group member and uses her position as therapist to
> recruit.
>
> Has she suggested you get involved with any people other than
> Steppers? Has she accused you of "isolating" and only suggested
> the groups as a place to socialize? Does she build your confidence
> in your ability to abstain?
>
> Locking yourself away is only going to make you lonely, and
> make drinking/drugging seem more attractive, if only to break
> the isolation. Moreover, if your social group narrows itself
> to only group members, you will be put in a position of great
> vulnerability when they begin putting on more intense pressure
> to adopt "spiritual principles."
>
<snip>


> Yes, they are very open and accepting and will embrace you
> openly. They are very eager to assist. However, with time,
> you will be more and more pressured to adopt their "spiritual
> principles" and be further and further removed from the rest of
> the world.
>
> When these loving, accepting, eager to assist people begin
> pushing you to work the Steps, and pray, and etc. if you should
> try to stand your ground, you will be pushed into total
> isolation. While they are unlikely to directly attack, they will
> shun, they will focus their shares on someone who, "just
> by coincidence" happens to have the same independent thoughts you have,
> etc., and etc. AA friends can disappear overnight if one
> dares have any autonomy after the "honeymoon period." I would
> wager that already, your therapist turns your questioning of
> the Program into a discussion of what might be wrong with you.
> It is not wrong to have questions.
>
> There is an e-mail group of over 1200 people who are ex-Steppers
> on Yahoo. A very large percentage of them are gay and have gone through
> many of the issues you have and are going through. Might I suggest
> that you try subscribing and maybe listening in a little. It
> might be quite a revelation for you. The name of the group is
> 12-Step-Free.
>
> Ken Ragge

Ken,
I continue to be surprised at the extreme nature of your views on AA
and at the way that you insert them into each and every discussion. Please
note that Chris had already said that he wasn't going to AA and didn't
intend to do so. There is no reason to offer him one of your aluminum foil
hats to keep out the AA brain control microwaves.
Even if he went to some meetings it would not be necessary. I go to
one meeting a week. It's the one that I am trying to revive at the Pride
Center. No one tries to draw me into other meetings. No one shuns me for
disagreeing with them. If they did, it would be self defeating. I would
choose to be shunned by someone who would choose to shun me.
What in the world happened to you that started you on this crusade?
Dan

On 14-Jun-2005, "Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote:

> Please
> note that Chris had already said that he wasn't going to AA and didn't
> intend to do so. There is no reason to offer him one of your aluminum
> foil hats to keep out the AA brain control microwaves.

ROTFLMAO...that's a keeper, Dan!

--
NutSo

Dan McGown wrote:
> <snip>
>
>>Chris,
>>
>>Do you have _any_ input from non-Steppers? One of the prime
>>objectives of cults and authoritarian organizations during early
>>recruiting is to separate them from and/or discredit outside sources of
>>information.
>>
>>You might get pissed at the suggestion, but your "therapist" is
>>probably what Steppers refer to as a "two-hatter," meaning
>>she is a group member and uses her position as therapist to
>>recruit.
>>
>>Has she suggested you get involved with any people other than
>>Steppers? Has she accused you of "isolating" and only suggested
>>the groups as a place to socialize? Does she build your confidence
>>in your ability to abstain?
>>
>>Locking yourself away is only going to make you lonely, and
>>make drinking/drugging seem more attractive, if only to break
>>the isolation. Moreover, if your social group narrows itself
>>to only group members, you will be put in a position of great
>>vulnerability when they begin putting on more intense pressure
>>to adopt "spiritual principles."
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>
>>Yes, they are very open and accepting and will embrace you
>>openly. They are very eager to assist. However, with time,
>>you will be more and more pressured to adopt their "spiritual
>>principles" and be further and further removed from the rest of
>>the world.
>>
>>When these loving, accepting, eager to assist people begin
>>pushing you to work the Steps, and pray, and etc. if you should
>>try to stand your ground, you will be pushed into total
>>isolation. While they are unlikely to directly attack, they will
>>shun, they will focus their shares on someone who, "just
>>by coincidence" happens to have the same independent thoughts you have,
>>etc., and etc. AA friends can disappear overnight if one
>>dares have any autonomy after the "honeymoon period." I would
>>wager that already, your therapist turns your questioning of
>>the Program into a discussion of what might be wrong with you.
>>It is not wrong to have questions.
>>
>>There is an e-mail group of over 1200 people who are ex-Steppers
>>on Yahoo. A very large percentage of them are gay and have gone through
>>many of the issues you have and are going through. Might I suggest
>>that you try subscribing and maybe listening in a little. It
>>might be quite a revelation for you. The name of the group is
>>12-Step-Free.
>>
>>Ken Ragge
>
>
> Ken,
> I continue to be surprised at the extreme nature of your views on AA
> and at the way that you insert them into each and every discussion.

Dan,

I'm surprised that you are suprised at someone expressing views critical
of AA on a thread that is on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

Please
> note that Chris had already said that he wasn't going to AA and didn't
> intend to do so. There is no reason to offer him one of your aluminum foil
> hats to keep out the AA brain control microwaves.
> Even if he went to some meetings it would not be necessary. I go to
> one meeting a week. It's the one that I am trying to revive at the Pride
> Center. No one tries to draw me into other meetings. No one shuns me for
> disagreeing with them. If they did, it would be self defeating. I would
> choose to be shunned by someone who would choose to shun me.

You are a grouper working his 12th Step very admirably, trying to
resuscitate a meeting. Why would they shun you? What do you think
groupers are _supposed_ to do?

If you were to announce with resolution that you don't believe in AA
anymore and were going to go to SMART or anywhere else, then there are
grounds for some serious shunning.

> What in the world happened to you that started you on this crusade?

What makes you so sure something happened to me? Why is every criticism
of God's Program somehow turned around on the critic? Where does this
"Kill the messenger" philosophy come from? No need to answer.

Since you are so not afraid of being shunned by the Groupers, why not
let's discuss coercion into the Step group.

The groups are a program of attraction, not promotion. Since this is
so, and AA is beyond criticism, can you explain this page from the
offical AA website?

http://www.aa.org/default/en_pdfs/mg...pwithcourt.pdf

Ken Ragge
http://www.morerevealed.com



> Dan
>
>

"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:hc6dnYLQV-auuDLfRVn-2w@comcast.com...
<snip>
> Dan,
>
> I'm surprised that you are suprised at someone expressing views critical
> of AA on a thread that is on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

Ah! I had not looked at the "newsgroups" line when I replied, so I had not
realized that, in addition to being obsessive on the subject of AA, that you
were also a cross-posting spammer. After this, I shall delete all groups
other than alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism if I bother responding to you
because cross-posting is an abuse.

Dan

Dan McGown wrote:

> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:hc6dnYLQV-auuDLfRVn-2w@comcast.com...
> <snip>
>
>>Dan,
>>
>>I'm surprised that you are suprised at someone expressing views critical
>>of AA on a thread that is on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.
>
>
> Ah! I had not looked at the "newsgroups" line when I replied, so I had not
> realized that, in addition to being obsessive on the subject of AA, that you
> were also a cross-posting spammer. After this, I shall delete all groups
> other than alt.recovery.addiction.alcoholism if I bother responding to you
> because cross-posting is an abuse.
>
> Dan
>

Dan,

A very predictable reply. You ignore what official AA has to say in
support of coercion by the government into AA, remove the url where
official AA says so

http://www.aa.org/default/en_pdfs/mg...pwithcourt.pdf

and launch into a stupid personal attack.

Ken Ragge

P.S. Maybe I should post the AA loves-coercion-and-here-is-how-to-do-it
all over the Internet. That should be grounds for a lot of criticism --
of me. LOL

"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:NO6dnU0QCKUNtjLfRVn-3w@comcast.com...
> Dan McGown wrote:
>
>> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:hc6dnYLQV-auuDLfRVn-2w@comcast.com...
>> <snip>

> Dan,
>
> A very predictable reply. You ignore what official AA has to say in
> support of coercion by the government into AA, remove the url where
> official AA says so
>
> http://www.aa.org/default/en_pdfs/mg...pwithcourt.pdf
>
> and launch into a stupid personal attack.
>
> Ken Ragge
>
> P.S. Maybe I should post the AA loves-coercion-and-here-is-how-to-do-it
> all over the Internet. That should be grounds for a lot of criticism --
> of me. LOL

It would be grounds to criticize you without regard to the content of the
spam -- and I don't speak for or even care about "what official AA has to
say." If you ever bothered to read what I post and if you were to avoid
respinning whatever I say to match your own obsession, you would understand
that I go my own way without blind acceptance of either "official AA" or
your own biases.

"Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:fNednXmO0N1S1zLfRVn-og@comcast.com...
> dan mcgown wrote:
>
>> "Ken Ragge" <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:NO6dnU0QCKUNtjLfRVn-3w@comcast.com...
>>
<snip>

> Dan,
>
> If I am to get you right, if I am to take you at your word, you don't care
> if the leaders of the 12-Step "fellowship" you support (e.g. by carrying
> the message, attacking critics) conspires with the courts to get
> government coercion into your relgious group, you just don't care.
>
> Of course, being a good 12-Stepper, with your "concious contact with God"
> and all that from working the Steps, you have no concern whatsoever with
> the First Amendmant, freedom of relgion, freedom of association and such
> trivialites.
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com

Your logic is as bad as your spelling and that is atrocious. I don't
support the "12 step leaders." I don't even know who they are. I have
never made a blanket endorsement of the AA organization. I have "carried
the message" that working the 12 steps has been good for me but I have also
"carried the message" that if something else works for you then do it and
tell us about it.
The main thing is that I don't attack people who are merely critics of
AA. I do criticize people who merely attack AA, if you are capable of
seeing the difference. You are on a different plane from simple critics.
You spread dogmatic, unthinking bile and vitriol. If AA's success rate
soared to 99%, instead of being glad that people were stopping drinking, you
would be angry that it was AA doing it.
I am a skeptic. I don't swallow all of the AA dogma. I don't get as
much out of meetings as some claim to get. I don't buy into the tie to
religion. ***BUT*** I have never seen any of the coercive crap that you
blather about except for the fact that some courts will require meetings as
part of probation.
Guess what, stud -- criminal sanctions, whether jail or probation are
supposed to be coercive. That's what criminal sanctions are for. They are
also supposed to be tailored to try to rehabilitate the criminal. If a
judge has a repeat DUI offender where do you expect the judge to send him?
To a bar? Or do you just want the judge to waive his finger sternly and
say: "Just say no to drink."
All that I have ever seen you do in here is attack AA. Okay, take it
as read that AA is flawed. Stop the ranting about AA and tell us how you
think the problem should be solved. -- and hey, if you don't have an
alternative solution to offer then shut the hell up.