"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42ad7f11_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "dan mcgown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:tKudnaQage5X5DDfRVn-ug@adelphia.com
>> Chris,
>>
>> I'm interested in how you have done it thus far. Is it really
>> "just say 'no'?" Are you doing it entirely on your own or are you
>> working with anyone like a fellow addict or a therapist?
>
> Dan, your "interest" might have even appeared genuine, had you first
> bothered to read what "Chris" had already written, right above your
> questions.
>
> Bob

For example, he says that he is seeing an addiction therapist once a week --
is that really something that he feels continues to help him? Would he be
clean without it? He went to some enforced meetings. Has he tried to find
any that were less religious? Is he working with any other addicst or just
the therapist? What the hell kind of "therapist" anyway? A psychologist or
psychiatrist or just someone who put up a sign?

Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:kPednd17Ao6xhjDfRVn-uw@comcast.com...
> stuart wrote:
> > How to profit Kem. Create your own question and then provide an answer
by
> > "someone else"
> > Your're as sleazy as Orange.
> > Lets do an infomercial.
>
> Stuart,
>
> Are you for real? Do you really think I posted that message? Do you
> really think that of all the millions of people exposed to AA among who
> are 1-2 million who are coerced at the behest of AA that no one is going
> to be critical of "The Program" or not want to go?

Ken what gave it away was the spellcheck program all of those folks who are
posting with glowing endorsement of your ideas. They gloss on their
endorsement is almost radioactive.
I don't disagree with your ideas, nut your methods are really cheesy.
Limburger that is. Smells a little...



>
> Do you really think that the "success" stories in AA, people who have
> sat in the rooms and preached about their own disease, the Powerlessness
> of the alcoholic and need for the 12-Step/Oxford Group "personal God" to
> survive "One day at a time" are attractive to all those who wander in or
> are forced to go?
>
> You folks are the ones who would fit just as well in a TV infomercial as
> in your Fundamentalist style prayer and witness meetings. And to me,
> you are just as credible.
>
> You might try thinking before you make stupid accusations. Did you get
> that accusation from your conscious contact with God acquired through
> working the Steps? The original founder of the Step theology, Frank
> Buchman, had conscious contact with God and got messages too. God told
> him "Thank Heavens for a man like Adolph Hitler . . . too bad about the
> Jews . . ."
>
> Ken Ragge
> http://www.morerevealed.com
>
> > Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:42AD05DC.4090106@nospam.com...
> >
> >>M$Man wrote:
> >>
> >>>I'm a 30 yr old man clean for 98 days. My drug of choice was coke, with
> >
> > a
> >
> >>>screw driver chaser to clean my throat after every line, I started
using
> >
> > in
> >
> >>>college 12 years ago and was a daily user for 6 years. I spent 30 days
> >
> > in a
> >
> >>>controlled detox, while there I was forced to attend 12 step meetings.
I
> >
> > see
> >
> >>>an addiction therapist weekly, who tells me in every session that I am
> >
> > only
> >
> >>>buying time, and can never maintain my sobriety with out a program. I
> >
> > have
> >
> >>>made several attempts to find a meeting that's right for me, but
> >
> > haven't. I
> >
> >>>am also an agnostic, and have deep issues with the theocratic structure
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>AA. I am a high-bottom addict I'm told, in that I have never lost every
> >>>thing and been forced to live in the gutter and sale my ass for a
bottle
> >
> > of
> >
> >>>Absolute. That's part of my issue with the program as well, its
designed
> >
> > for
> >
> >>>people that have hit bottom and can go no lower, a jail house
conversion
> >
> > if
> >
> >>>you will. While I did reached that point, that is, I became so
disgusted
> >>>with the unmanageable downward spiral my life was taking, I still
> >
> > managed to
> >
> >>>keep it together. Never lost my job, house, family, friends, and they
> >
> > have
> >
> >>>all supported me through my recovery.
> >>>
> >>>So my question is, are there people out there that have managed to stay
> >>>clean and sober with out the program? Is my desire to stay sober and
> >
> > live to
> >
> >>>see 40 enough to sustain me? I think it is, I mean, I had the
> >
> > wherewithal to
> >
> >>>admit myself, and dry out, and have maintained for 68 days since I got
> >
> > out!
> >
> >>>Any insight would be greatly appreciated.
> >>>
> >>>Thanks - Chris
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>Chris,
> >>
> >>Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
> >>outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
> >>to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.
> >>
> >>The Step groups aren't merely religious, they are religious cults and an
> >>offshoot of a pro-fascist Fundamentalist Christian cult called the
> >>Oxford Group. There is a lot of information about them at:
> >>http://www.morerevealed.com . Maybe very interesting to you is a book
> >>on the website which goes into AA history, its "success" rates
> >>(actuallly it is a horrible failure) and the techniques they use to
> >>destablilize people and gain new recruits.
> >>http://www.morerevealed.com/books/mr/
> >>
> >>It isn't really surprising that people who sit around talking about
> >>alcohol and drugs for years on end and under constant pressure to an
> >>authoritarian religious cult don't do nearly as well as those who stop
> >>or moderate and move on with life.
> >>
> >>Ken Ragge
> >>
> >
> >
> >

"Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:G_CdnbSaJuFREzDfRVn-vA@adelphia.com
> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
> news:42ad7f11_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
>> "dan mcgown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>> news:tKudnaQage5X5DDfRVn-ug@adelphia.com
>>> Chris,
>>>
>>> I'm interested in how you have done it thus far. Is it
>>> really "just say 'no'?" Are you doing it entirely on your own
>>> or are you working with anyone like a fellow addict or a
>>> therapist?
>>
>> Dan, your "interest" might have even appeared genuine, had you
>> first bothered to read what "Chris" had already written, right
>> above your questions.
>>
>> Bob
>
> For example, he says that he is seeing an addiction therapist once
> a week -- is that really something that he feels continues to help
> him? Would he be clean without it? He went to some enforced
> meetings. Has he tried to find any that were less religious? Is
> he working with any other addicst or just the therapist? What the
> hell kind of "therapist" anyway? A psychologist or psychiatrist
> or just someone who put up a sign?

Finally go back and read what you "answered", didya. Wow, your
"interest" is the antithesis of genuine. Now, yer telling me, not
even asking "Chris"

Bob

kohlrabi_croce <kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118641198.902015.57870@g44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
> Ken,
>
> Makes sense to me. Wow, those people are rabid. Somebody even told
> me to stuff cotton down my throat, and somebody else told me that they
> know better than I do, what advice is good for me.
>
> Fuck a bunch of that! ( from a poem which got us all kicked out of a
> major chain booskstore)

What message are you responding to? If it's mine, the I will tell you I have
absolutely nothing against Ken's ideas, in fact they are good ideas. It's
his fakery that I was criticising. He's creating an infomercial here.

Don't be too harsh on recovering people, no matter what path they take, and
it is possible they will be kind in return.

After all, some of them are sick mentally. That's why they appear to have
rabies, my friend.

>You may really need a counsellor to teach you how to take the cotton
>wool out of your ears, stick it in your mouth, and simply listen to
>everyday people.

>Bob

Wow, yet another example of a pro-12 steps person telling someone to
stuff fibrous materials down their throat. I guess this is not just a
one-time
example. How incredibly hostile. How lacking in "recovery."

PS He already made it clear that listening to "everyday people"
doesn't do it for him.

Bob,
I try to remain civil with you but your neverending belligerence is
unspeakably tiresome.
Dan

"Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:42ad9d06_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
> "Dan McGown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
> news:G_CdnbSaJuFREzDfRVn-vA@adelphia.com
>> "Robert McGregor" <robert_mcgregor@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
>> news:42ad7f11_1@news.iprimus.com.au...
>>> "dan mcgown" <dmcgown@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>> news:tKudnaQage5X5DDfRVn-ug@adelphia.com
>>>> Chris,
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in how you have done it thus far. Is it
>>>> really "just say 'no'?" Are you doing it entirely on your own
>>>> or are you working with anyone like a fellow addict or a
>>>> therapist?
>>>
>>> Dan, your "interest" might have even appeared genuine, had you
>>> first bothered to read what "Chris" had already written, right
>>> above your questions.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> For example, he says that he is seeing an addiction therapist once
>> a week -- is that really something that he feels continues to help
>> him? Would he be clean without it? He went to some enforced
>> meetings. Has he tried to find any that were less religious? Is
>> he working with any other addicst or just the therapist? What the
>> hell kind of "therapist" anyway? A psychologist or psychiatrist
>> or just someone who put up a sign?
>
> Finally go back and read what you "answered", didya. Wow, your
> "interest" is the antithesis of genuine. Now, yer telling me, not
> even asking "Chris"
>
> Bob
>
>
>

"stuart" <fred@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:z2hre.50628$HI.23516@edtnps84
> kohlrabi_croce <kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1118641198.902015.57870@g44g2000cwa.googlegro ups.com...
>> Ken,
>>
>> Makes sense to me. Wow, those people are rabid. Somebody even
>> told me to stuff cotton down my throat, and somebody else told me
>> that they know better than I do, what advice is good for me.
>>
>> Fuck a bunch of that! ( from a poem which got us all kicked out
>> of a major chain booskstore)
>
> What message are you responding to? If it's mine, the I will tell
> you I have absolutely nothing against Ken's ideas, in fact they
> are good ideas.

Yeah, those AA nazis are truly Hitler Youth, gone geriatric!

Bob

Ken Ragge <ken@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:42AD05DC.4090106@nospam.com...
>
> Most people end up abstaining or moderating alcohol and drug use with no
> outside assistance whatsoever. Most people who go to 12-Step struggle
> to give it up sometimes for the rest of their lives.
>

You are missing just one key fact here Ken. The vast majority of people who
show up in 12-Step meetings have *already tried* to moderate or abstain on
their own and failed miserably. Why on earth would any serious drinker go
anywhere near AA if he could get out of trouble by "cutting back a little" ?
If he was coerced into going (and most of them were in trouble long before
the judge got involved), why in the world would he go back after his tour of
duty was up ?

John K.

"kohlrabi_croce" <kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1118674673.866106.258740@g43g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com
>> You may really need a counsellor to teach you how to take the
>> cotton wool out of your ears, stick it in your mouth, and simply
>> listen to everyday people.
>
>> Bob
>
> Wow, yet another example of a pro-12 steps person telling someone
> to stuff fibrous materials down their throat. I guess this is
> not just a one-time
> example. How incredibly hostile. How lacking in "recovery."

Thought that truism might appeal to your sensitivities. Bet you hear
lots of wonderful stuff while your tongue is flapping.

Bob