D-cowboy wrote:
> 12 steps are a reasonable approach to improving ones self but it provides
> little to know value in actually staying "off" the stuff.
>
> 12 step programs end up being full of people with diminished life
> expectations! Saying things like although my wife left, I got fired from my
> job, I am broke, homeless, and family wont talk to me "ITS ALL GOOD BECAUSE
> I AM SOBER"/
>
> After 5 years clean seeing someone who is sharing a 2 bedroom apartment and
> working 12 hours a week and is satisfied with this ....does not equal a
> successful program

What is wrong with working 12 hours a week and sharing a two bedroom
apartment? Does working 60 hours a week, driving a new car, living in a
huge house necessarily equal a good life or successful program? Many of
us seem to equate the "good life" with the physical things we own. I
think if one's "life expectations" are only two gain materially, then
their expectations are narrow and diminished. Also which do you mean:

This: > 12 steps are a reasonable approach to improving ones self but it
provides
> little to know value in actually staying "off" the stuff.

or

This: > 12 step programs end up being full of people with diminished life
> expectations!

Slightly contradictory don't you think?